Is the Resurrection of Christ Provable? (Western Baptist College Debate, 2008)

[mikelheron20]

The answer to the question posed by this debate is "No". Just thought I'd save everybody 2 hours 6 minutes and 55 seconds.

[lukose2007]

@mikelheron20 Wait till Jesus returns.

[mikelheron20]

@lukose2007 Could you give me an approximate idea when to expect him? You see I've got to go to the supermarket and I'd hate to be out when he calls.

[jtbovis]

Starts 8:40

[thescorpionking2020]

there is no need for such debates,u just have to make one arguement,if evolution is right wich it is,dat means thr were no first humans,implies no adam and eve,means no original sin,means no fall of man and therefore no need for god to send his only begotten son to redeem d world,humans r not born in a state of sin and therefore do not require to b redeemed by a human sacrifice,game over for christianity,lets c if a christian can refute dat

[vas13xtq]

Mike might be a nice guy. However, Bart totally one this debate. Mike gave absolutely no arguments that hold any weight.

[LobarRobotic]

Very good debate. I agree Bart demolished Mike, but I feel for Mike. He really didn't have an easy time with his voice. Especially during question and answer when I'm sure he would have performed better if he was able to speak properly. Good job both of you.

[csdr0]

Yes. 1.The former enemy of the Christians, the Apostle Paul, testified he saw the risen Christ. What greater witness would there be than a former enemy? 2. If untrue then all the original disciples were unable to cope with the reality of Christ's death. Their followers could have discovered that & Christianity would not have prospered considering the sacrifices required. This all boils down to the question about the credibility of Christ's original witnesses. Are there proofs to show they lied?

[55k3v1n]

@csdr0 Chuck Colson was a member of the "Watergate 12" by which he went to prison. He said the twelve most powerful men on earth could not keep the Watergate lie for even a few weeks before one (James Dean) spilled the beans. Colson became a Christain precisely due to the fact the twelve disciples were willing to face greater dangers than federal prison for proclaiming to be eye witnesses to the resurrection. These are the same men who deserted Christ and fled when He was arrested and killed.

[medsheikh]

when was this debate? what date.

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff I wasn't force-fed religion since birth, yet I am absolutely convinced of the resurrection of Christ. It's a fact that Christianity would not exist without the resurrection. If Jesus died and that was the end of it, all that happened before would have come to nothing. It would have ended right then and there. The disciples fled and hid in fear after the crucifixion. 40 days later they were boldly proclaiming the resurrection even at the threat of death. All but 1 were executed.

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff After Jesus rose from the dead, He instructed his disciples (not just the twelve) to await for the Holy Spirit after His ascention. After the coming of the Holy Spirit believers began to boldly proclaim the resurrection resulting in thousands of conversions. The church would not have had a reason to exist, outside of the resurrection. Their wouldn't have been a church 100s of years later to edit scriptures to suit their needs, as you assume. (con't)

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff I was responding to your accusation that the church edited/re-wrote the gospels to suit their needs which doesn't add up when considering the RCs non-biblical practises that took root hundreds of years after the early church. And I'm trying to make an obvious point that the physical bodily resurrection of Christ was necessary for the church to have even begun- there would't have been any other reason for the early rapid growth, which has now reached 1-2 billion members.

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff Praying to the eternal, all-powerful, personal Creator is a common activity amongst the world's population. The infinite size of the universe is a reflection of His eternal existance. The balance provided by the precise workings of the laws of physics that keep the galaxies, and star systems from utter chaos speaks of His creative power. The great diversity of life and especially intelligent life speaks of His personality traits. Design demands a designer.

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff An eternal Intelligent Designer lives outside time and space. He was here before time began at the big bang. Some atheists seem to think an unintelligent, lifeless eternal energy has always existed, meaning NOBODY or NOTHING designed it. It's just always been there. And at some point after existing for eons and eons, this energy suddenly produced something other than itself which led up to the big bang. Just substitute an eternal God, with no beginning or end, for the energy.

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff You're atheistic position is based on supposition without any real proof as well. I notice that you attack my position without making any effort whatsoever to support your position, whatever it may be. What's your take on the idea of some kind of eternal energy pre-existing the big bang. If you don't agree with that, then what is your theory and what logic do you use to support it. Why ask "Who designed God?" if you know you're just going to respond with ridicule?

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff I'm a Christain, but when I talk about intelligent design I realise that identifyng the designer is up for philisophical debate. I may seem like I have an attitude, but I'm just someone who has a fascination in the big questions. One of the great debates of our time is about whether there is some kind of intelligence behind the existance of the universe or not. I have a hard time with the idea of something coming from nothing. It's my opinion and I don't expect others to agree.

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff I only think miracles can happen if the laws of physics originated with God. If this were so, then God would transcend those laws and have the power to defy or manipulate them as He chooses. Jesus said that after He was put to death, He would rise again the third day. Paul wrote, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" It's essential that one believe this. (con't)

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff (con't) I would not be able to believe in the resurrection if I had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Years later I read "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell who went from outspoken atheist to a believer after investigating the resurrection. His book further verified what I already believed. This sort of miracle gets one thinking about other miracles. Jesus said that with God all things are possible (even if they defy the laws of physics). No God=no miracles

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff I just watched a debate: William Lane Craig vs. Bart Ehrman: Is there historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Also on YouTube: William Lane Craig on Bart Ehrman Part 1-6. I'd be interested in your feedback.

[DerSteppenwolf1979]

@55k3v1n the bozo who posts WLC´s videos (drcraigvideos) deletes any comentary that opposes WLC delusional arguments.

[55k3v1n]

@DerSteppenwolf1979 I hate when that happens, whether I agree or disagree on any given subject matter. Do your comments vanish or are they spammed?

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff If God is the source of the laws of physics, He transcends them. He has the authority to defy them. An eternal living God is the source of life, not death. Death is the result of the absence of the source of life which can only mean mankind, for some reason, is not in harmony with God. Death is a present reality, but should not be accepted as a normal thing. Jesus conquered death by the resurrection and provides reconciliation that is free and can't be earned (Eph. 2: 8,9) con't

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff Christains believe Jesus is the Messiah. He promises eternal life to all who believe and backs this up by the resurrection. The promise of eternal life is a free gift from God and can't be earned lest anyone should boast. It's out of gratitude for this free gift that people become compassionate and cheerful givers. Giving doesn't get anyone closer to heaven, but it is the gift of heaven that inspires people to give. God would rather you not give if it's done grudgingly.

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff (con't) If the church (Roman Catholics) edited the scriptures to suit their need, they failed miserably. We can use today's translations to point out the erroneous teachings of the RCs- It's hierarchial system from priests to the pope, the glorification of Mary, the RC priesthood, praying to saints, infant baptism. The Anglicans have also carried over many of the same practises.

[csdr0]

@55k3v1n, You nailed it right on its head! If Christ did not resurrect the disciples would not have the motivation to preach to the Jews & then suffer/die for the sake of something they know was a great lie. His death would have ended it. There must have been a scientific study in psychology to prove that it's impossilble to have men willing to suffer & die for the sake of a known lie. It would have weighed heavily on their conscience. Who could prove they are mentally sick of gross liars?

[paulinator61]

@csdr0

You're forgetting we have many examples of people who died for a lie. The Jim Jones massacre, Heaven's Gate, Waco, every Muslim suicide bomber, close followers of Carlos Castaneda. Your argument is a common Christian one, but without basis in fact.

[55k3v1n]

@paulinator61 All the examples you gave are of people who were willing to die for what they "thought" to be true. That's a whole lot different than the disciples claiming to be actual eye witnesses to having seen, met with, talked to the risen Lord over a 40 day period. If they were lying it would mean they were willing to die for what they "knew" to be a lie. Without their claims Christianity would not exist today. If Jesus remained dead, they would have had nothing to preach.

[55k3v1n]

@DinoDoesStuff Why would the disciples be willing to die for preaching the resurrection if it wasn't true. People will die for a lie that they think it's true. The disciples claimed to have witnessed the physical resurrection, which means that if they were lying, then they were willing to go to their deaths for a lie. Who would do that? This is why Christianity is entirely based on trusting in the claims of the disciples combined with the receiving of the Holy Spirit who also served as witness

[MrHobiecat]

I can save the viewer 2 hours and 7 minutes of your life: the resurrection of christ is absolutely provable: Produce Christ in person, and you have proven he is alive. Until that happens, everything else is babbling nonsense.

[MrHobiecat]

@DinoDoesStuff If the ancient bible stories are metaphors, then there was no adam.

Therefor: no fall from grace for all of humanity, no spiritual death, no inherent original sin.

Therefore: no need for a divine human sacrifice on a stick

Therefore: no need for the christian church.

If you know what is right and wrong, you dont need a book of nonsense written by ancient goat farmers, esp when the people who followed it were responsible for the 1500 year period know as the DARK AGES.

[DinoDoesStuff]

@MrHobiecat I know what works form me. But thanks for your reply :)

[MrHobiecat]

@DinoDoesStuff Thousands of people have been writing books for the last 500 years that already ARE the basis and bedrock of not only morality, but also usefull knowledge and understanding. The bible HAS been replaced by these collective works of scientists, engineers, doctors, physicists...

When someone is sick, they no longer goto the church elders to have hands laid on them, they go to a DOCTOR. When someone wants to understand the nature of the universe, they goto a UNIVERSITY.

[MrHobiecat]

@DinoDoesStuff and the morality you refer to in the bible is abhorent. Christianity is based on punishing an innocent man, to death, as if that somehow makes a guilty man innocent in ANYONEs eyes. Then you seal the deal by pretending to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

Your claims of holding the moral high ground are obscene. Given the 1500 year history of christiany, know as the dark ages, your book teaches the OPPOSITE of everything that is good and right.

[MrHobiecat]

@DinoDoesStuff Be honest, do YOU really feel that the act of being born (original sin) warrents enough guilt on YOUR head, that you deserve to be nailed to a cross, and left to die, and then punished forever in hell?

Be honest, if we drag YOU out and beat you within an inch of your life, then nail you to a cross to die, will you say " Well, I guess I had this coming, after all, I was BORN, so Im guilty as anyone else"

You know the answer, your piousness is pure kwrap.

[MrHobiecat]

@DinoDoesStuff I see by your lack of an answer that you pesonally do NOT believe the things in christianity. Instead you offer a lame attempt to accuse me of some psychologial problem.

My statements stand on their own. Your lack of an honest answer also stands on its own.

You are not a christain true Bee Leaver, you are a con man, most likely making money by selling christianity to people.

Did take long for you to expose yourself either.

[MrHobiecat]

@DinoDoesStuff So you are fleecing the flock. HAHAHHAHA!

There is nothing intellecual about a religion based on a human sacrifice nailed to a stick, that you commemorate by pretending to eat is flesh and drink its blood.

Dress it all up in white robes with marble buildings and statues and paintings.

A human sacrifice is what it is, and so is cannibalism and vampirism.

But you dont want to call it that? Do you? HAHAHHAHAHA!

[MrHobiecat]

@DinoDoesStuff yeah, whats to be angry about over christianity?! You kept all of europe in the dark ages for 1500 years, burned people alive for their scientifc discoveries, drove people like Alan Turin to suicide, you tell children they are born evil & guilty and unless they do what YOU tell them, they are going to burn in hell forever at the hands of a loving creator/god,

& then you hold out a plate and say, OH BTW 10% of your income belongs to ME, uhmm I mean JESUS!

whats not to like?

[MrHobiecat]

@DinoDoesStuff You cannot possibly live a good life based on the morals portrayed in a book of FICTION, because the events in the FICTION never happened, and therefore have no basis in reality.

For example, in reality, turning the other cheek will very often result in the end of your life. Being kind to your enemies, while they are still your enemies, very often brings on your own destruction. Giving to everyone who asks will quickly deplete your bank account and no god is there to bail you out

[MrHobiecat]

@DinoDoesStuff if he really existed at all, jesus was a mystic: a person who has ideas that appeal to the emotions, but have no basis in reality. In order to create a WORKING morality, ideas and theories must be tested in the real world, and the results indicate whether your morality is good or bad.

This is a continuation of the scientific principles that have vastly improved the quality of human life over the last 500 years. Applied to law and morals, they work the same way.

[car3boat]

This was less of a debate, more of a massacre by Dr Bart Ehrman.