Wake turbulence plane crash in Mexico City: Radar View and Controller's Voice

[robertgift]

Do prevailing winds not blow the wake turbulance out of the path of the aircraft following?

Just a little wind is enough to blow it out of the path.

Thank you.

[buybushcheap]

Weird. When I have flown around Baja, mostly talking to Mazatlan control, most of the conversations are in English. In fact I can't think of having heard a frequency in Mexico with non stop Spanish. Why so much Spanish in Mexico City?

[ilkolli]

@buybushcheap because in Mexico they speak spanish....That´s why! Or do you expect a spanish speaking ATC and a spanish speaking pilot to talk in english??

[MrAviator81]

I can tell you right now that was no wake turbulence!!! The aircraft in question was far gone and there was another aircraft crossing its path before the Lear that crashed.

[chommy7]

cant be real. the universal language is english and they have to speak it

[isseylake]

THEY SHOT IT DOWN!

[haiglee]

@TeenAviator Well, I guess the "teen" aviator doesn't yet realize that VOR codes are duplicated in different countries around the world. Sorry, buddy, but your inexperience is showing.

[jstrahan2]

A Learjet 45 is not classified as a light aircraft.

[panchoscse77]

bueno yo soy controlador aereo virtual, cmo es un 767 el de atras debe mantener 6nm de separacion ya que la que viene atras es ligera, esta alcanzo a estar cerca a 4nm, por lo cual le produjo al learjet daño, entrando en stall a lo cual el avion no pudo recuperar y choca con el terreno, en este caso el controlador no tuvo culpa ya que antes de que el avion se acercara 4 millas del 767, el controlador pidio que reduciera a 180 y el VMC no lo hizo

[gonoje71]

Sólo por curiosidad. El controlador aéreo llamó dos veces a ese vuelo, y nunca contestaron. ¿Que debe hacer el controlador si ve que no contestan? Este parece que se quedó tan "tranquilo"...

[rafachavez5]

Hola, pues yo no tengo ningun adiestramiento en nada de aviacion o cosas por el estilo, a mi limitado o nulo conocimiento de estos procedimientos, no me explico que hace un aparato en el radar acercandose a la trayectoria del Learjet, inclusive atravesando la misma! y despues desaparece!!! La verdad nadie ha dicho nada al respecto y esto es IRREFUTABLE, si esta en la pntalla del radar, NADIE DEBERIA DE PASARLO POR ALTO!!! Que piensas al respecto Arkthurius? SALUDOS y Gracias

[Arkthurius]

Si vieras los radares de trafico aereo siempre verias trayectorias cruzando cerca, recuerda que los aviones utilizan las tres dimensiones :) el plano de radar solo muestra dos y el avion envia info de altura, pienso que lo que ocurrio se debio enteramente a una wake turbulence.

[xfernydrummerX]

@rafachavez5 esos eran helicopteros, y estaban muy por debajo de la trayectoria del Learjet, asi que no tuvieron nada que ver con este accidente.

estoy completamente seguro que esta accidente fue causado por turbulencia de estela o en "wake turbulence" .

[jazzyg808]

Wake turb. Well. As a controller, i can say.. put yr friggin tolerances in play!! Rookie move .

[CarolyneMas]

what about the helicopter that passes in between just as the small jet vanishes.

[Arkthurius]

It's the main focus of study for the conspiracy theorists.

[timmhg]

Inexperiencia garrafal y grosera de los pilotos del Learjet.

Nota: no se porque la gente opina de idiomas si aquí no se trata el tema.

[Arkthurius]

Estoy de acuerdo con lo de la experiencia garrafal, ojala volaramos todos los vuelos como cuando eran los primeros que haciamos en la academia donde haciamos los checklists 5 veces, ya luego el tiempo nos hace confiarnos en que nada va a pasar. Lo de groseros no se a que te refieras, pero en mi opinion, y acepto que en mi manera de pilotar, yo mento madres siempre que vuelo, es como una manera de lidiar con la presion de volar un avion. Y creo que si estuviera en una emergencia lo haria mas.

[timmhg]

Que tal Arkthurius. Disculpa si se malentendió mi comentario Me parece grosera, como una variante de burdos o incultos en conocimiento del Learjet. Y es que como mexicanos se nos pueden salir groserías de cualquier magnitud, así como se ha escuchado aun de gringos, pero no mostrar inexperiencia de tal magnitud. No dudo que el finado Álvaro tuvo experiencia comprobada pero el otro piloto (a cargo) si escuchó bien pato, para llorar. Y a esos niveles de resp., pues no, no va.

[Arkthurius]

Qur tal. La verdad desconozco realmente que tanta experiencia hayan tenido los pilotos. Como mencionas al parecer el cap Alvaro tenia mas. Como dices lo de los insultos pasa en todos lados, en casi todas las cajas negras de accidentes de USA he escuchado, y la verdad tiene sentido. Son humanos. Lo unico rescatable de esta tragedia es que no hay que confiarse nunca, por mas experiencia que uno tenga.

[timmhg]

Totalmente de acuerdo. Saludos.

[guitar46phil]

Crashing 1 kilometer from the Presidential Residence in Mexico City - Mouriño was a key figure in Mexico's war against drug traffickers. Also José Luis Santiago Vasconcelos another top anti-cartel official. Media has failed to report the details, investigation is being conducted by US without media attention, the investigation seems never ending. What will we find out and when? Was it an accident or an assassination?

[sidemanduff]

accident...lol

narcos did it

black box switch turn off, come on

the pilot of the  asso.president

[Rata4You]

Dude, if the narcos did it, it only gives more resolve to the government & people to attack the drug cartel. Nobody is so glib as to deny they lose a few of their people from time to time. That's life.

[robertwaldo]

Wake turbulence at 170 knots in a Lear with a new pilot.

[dardouno]

what's at 3:20? sudenly appears and crossing.

(A1505) on white letters, I guess in other elevation.

[Zektor228]

its an helicopter that suddenly appear

[Sergionewyork]

Nope, it was an accident therefore he cannot be persecuted.....

[sweetspedstuff]

the accident had nothing to do with the controller anyway... a learjet going into mexico city has to know that "big planes" go through the same approach routes... wake turbulance is not the controllers responsibility at 9,000 feet

[DJXNRG]

and later pilot and copilot told to one of the passengers that the refinery below on the side was Salamanca wich is east of Queretaro and about 200 miles east of Mexico City, it was the refinery of Tula wich is near of Mexico City. Seconds before the crash te pilot said "the turbulence of this one" and he asked the copilot what to do, the copilot said leave to me, leave to me, the pilot said "all yours" and then cuz words, screams and the word "diosito" (god)

[DJXNRG]

It was wake turbulence and also the pilots were not familiar with plane controls. They got trouble entering data on the plane electronics, at one point the copilot said, If it doesn't want to (the plane) we flight it manually.

They were disoriented too the pilot asked the copilot (who got more experience but less hours on that type of plane) if the city below was Queretaro or Morelia, to far apart one of the another,the copilot said push here on "new airports" and he said see? is Queretaro.

[regnessemownllik]

the people in the building on the side of the lear jet explosion saw a body entering the building and breaking a window, It was Juan Camilo Mouriño's body which was beheaded when they found his body, however Santiago Vasconcelo's body wasn't found, this is very weird, maybe there was a fight on the plane and this kould kause the plane krash, who knows?

[DJXNRG]

That's a lie. no fight on board to much imagination!!

[gasaholic47]

I always thought ATC was conducted in English? I thought that was the international standard?

[piska250]

There are 5 ICAO languages that can be used while controlling. The rule says that you can use the language of the country (if any of those 5) or English. Spanish is one of these 5.

I hope only enlgish will be used in the future. Using 2 languages at the same time is confusing sometimes.

[Sergionewyork]

wrong wrong .... why Engish when they pilots speah Spanish, and the control tower too .... hello?

[sweetspedstuff]

I agree only one launguage should be used if english or not... Pilots need to understand what other pilots are saying to prevent atc faults, misunderstandings in unicom situations, and vfr situations

[Arkthurius]

That sounds like a very demanding idea. I mean, if 1 out of 10 planes arriving to mexico city is foreign, make everybody speak lets say english which is the most common would not make much sense. What is none of the aircraft is even foreign?.. Would all aircraft arriving to JFK speak spanish because a lufthansa entered the landing pattern?... Doesnt make much sense. Airlines would likely invest that money on pilot training than in a language course. None of the aircraft in this clip was foreign.

[jotaman82]

This is not a question of majority on language speaking. It's a question of UNIVERSAL understandment, which is something that is important! There would be sense to all aircraft speak spanish at JFK app if Spanish was the top spoken language in the world. It is not, it is English. So yes, there's no use in standard procedures (like SIDs and STARs) if there is no standard language. Everything must be equal to every radio comm in the whole world! Spanish, brazilians and chinese still resist this...

[Arkthurius]

Yes. Regardless of the universal chosen language to ATC communications, having only one is a perfect idea. I have no doubt it would reduce confusions, therefore risks, improve efficiency etc. But bringing that ideal scenario into reality is difficult for many 'obvious', cultural, political, economical, and many many other global aspects.

[Arkthurius]

Now that I think about it it would be good not only to speak a universal language for aviation but for everything hehe.

[Arkthurius]

I thought it was chinese or hindi the top spoken language in the world.

[jotaman82]

And you're probably right. But English is, by far, easier to learn and more acessible to the whole world than those two.

Oh and by the way, there is a REAL intention of universal ATC language (english) because I'll be studying to become a pilot soon and I know for sure that an English assessment test is required for all pilots (relatively new rule).

[Rata4You]

Dude, nothing wrong with picking up a new language. English is a harder language to learn than Spanish is, btw. English is slippery, Spanish has constant rules. IE: why is it that Goose = Geese Moose does NOT = Meese? Shit like that. My wife is fluent in English but is still bewildered by the inconsistancy in the rules of english. It's truly a bizarre language when you have to learn it.

[Arkthurius]

Hi there, with all respect, I am a language instructor, Private Pilot, and I have a degree in electricity. I teach english to mexicans and spanish to people from all over in an academy. There are many factors involved in the phrase 'learning a new language', such as human factors like age, intelligence, culture acceptance (mexico for example is full of english speaking channels with subtitles etc). I can tell spanish not harder but certainly more extense than english.

[Arkthurius]

It would be a total different thing teaching 20-30 year old pilots to speak spanish, it would take them (i think by experience) a long time to form a sentence which of course in aviation in case of emergency is critical. In general i would say english is easier to learn because it is very coloquial, and even spanish is grammatically very well structured, for grown up foreigner it represents a serious problem, which does not happen to a person exposed to the language since childhood.

[Arkthurius]

Even the clip is about a wake turbulence it is kind of nteresting how most people has reacted to the language thing. Anyway i just said my point of view, thanks for posting.

[Arkthurius]

By the way I am a native Spanish speaker and teacher and I can tell spanish is an amazing language itself regardless how many people speaks it and the reason of it.

[Rata4You]

Chinese is NOT a language. You mean Mandrin? Cantonese? Or the hundreds of dialects in China? Which are you referring to? the top spoken language in the free-market world is ENGLISH. It's not the number of people that matter but their capability to communicate with the markets that own the patents & innovations in the free-market. China is a slave-market...until they figure out how to innovate that's all they will ever be. What part of "We'll hire you for 45 cents per day" are they not getting?

[Arkthurius]

Hi there again, and again i respect your opinions. I am very ignorant about asian languages and i dont know much about any cantonese, mandarin, or any dialect from china and its surrondings.

It is of course that money is the key under the system of what language will be used. When the soviet union had a solid economy their planes never had anything with the latin alphabet knowing they would not import planes from the US. Every sign on the plane was in russian.

[Arkthurius]

The economics part of your comment is good. Clarifying chinese languages dont find it amazing but ok. The political system for economics in china, might have not been necessary.

[jotaman82]

All you have said is true, but remember, pilots are not supposed to "chat" on the radio. Radio chatter is supposed to be brief and concise, so any language would do as long as it is easy to learn.

And btw, I'm Portuguese and fluent in English and Spanish (portuguese and spanish are very similar languages, we understand each other speaking our own languages) and by far English is easier for me than Spanish...

[jaimeoops]

At minute 4:02 VMC looks like he was taking an evasive action against A1505 losing its trajectory. Both aircrafts almost at the same height, i think. Very very weird.

[FubitoRobito]

Ehh, I heard there was an audio recording of this crash where you could hear the people screaming? My friend told me it was horrible. You could hear, "Diosito-" And he said that was it.

[gamingfreak93]

is it on youtube i want to see it theres another one that shows the plane burning and images of the aftermath

[magt1982]

The cause of the crash has been confirmed to be wake turbulence as the black box recorded the pilot saying. "Wow the turbulence of this dude" - "Orale la turbulencia de este wey"  They were also recorded saying things like "Leave it to me, oh my god, holy Mother F* shit" etc.

[hasan2080]

Is weird how the A1505, whatever helicopter this is, takes direction towards the Lear jet and then follows a parallel trajectory.... VERY FUCKING WEIRD..

[andyman4041]

In the 45, spoilers aren't supposed to be used with flaps extended. They still extend but they aren't supposed to be used together.

[Arkthurius]

any resources to confirm that info?

[andyman4041]

Type rated in it

[CapFranz]

Flaps and Spoilers use hydraulic pressure. While using both reduces effectiveness in some airplanes but in some type it is permited to use both at the same time. The only airplane I flew that can do that was the B767 and B757 which can use Spoilers almost ALL of the time. I used to reduce speed while on 5 NM final approach with Landing gear down and full flaps. And they worked beautiful!

[capiluis]

no fue un Learjet 25 sino un Learjet 45 del año 1998 el avion era practicamente nuevo ya que los aviones llegan a durar hasta 30 años de servicio.

[mfuentes727]

Como dato, la voz del controlador no es de Centro México sino de Terminal México.

Just little correction, the voice of the ATC is not from Mexico Center, is from Mexico Approach.

[Arkthurius]

Gracias por el dato.

[Safari148]

The lear seems to delay his speed reduction to very late, but then CBE7225 does the same. The XCVMC Looses control at 175 Kts, This is no stall nor is it due to any progressive problem arising or existant according to radio chatter. Wake turbulance may well be a cause because maybe with the speed brakes still on (due to his rapid speed desceleration).

[Arkthurius]

The two planes after XC-VMC enter SMO at relatively high speeds, but they were a Fokker 100 and a 737-700, certainly heavier than a Learjet. Another thing is that they approach a little higher. The Learjet almost all the track follows the 767 altitude.

[Safari148]

Hard to consider with little info we have, but the speeds are all acceptable for all planes on the approach. The only thing that we can see is a lear that reduces speed long after being instructed to. then the rapid reduction could only have been done with use of spoilers. To hit wake turbulance with some flaps and spoilers out could make things rather tricky. Then of course all this is only guess thinking. ;-)

[Arkthurius]

That's exactly what I think happened. It kept high speed for a while. Then use of spoilers for a quick decrease in speed. And with flaps landing gear, and spoilers extended, got into the wake turbulence. Hard to get out of it.

[CapFranz]

Hello -Safari148- The maximun speed authorized at the Initial Approach Fix (IAF) at San Mateo VOR is 160KTS and here, in this video, you can see almost NOBODY complied with that. Now, the speed indicated in the "Radar Tag" is ABSOLUTE SPEED which is higher then the Indicated Air Speed (IAS). To hit wake turbulence depends on what aircraft are you behind. Behind a B767 and B757 is world recognized as to be one of the most strongest and dangerous of all.

[Safari148]

If no one respects speed limitations, then set up some speed cameras and flash them! Sorry for the pun! Speed is usualy according to ATC discretion, more traffic there is the faster they wish for aircrafts to maintain. (That is a silent rule!) and is not cause of the problem here. Then again I am not investigating. :-)

[CapFranz]

You are not investigating, you are here to play, I see.

[guillitooo]

Tenia suficiente distancia como para que el wake turbulence fuera tanto como para provocar esto. Pero creo que hasta el momento podria ser mas probable, lo de conspiracion,pues es muy dificil.

[hasan2080]

what is A1505?

[Arkthurius]

The A1505 are helicopters.

[nano404]

Agusta?

[capneto]

It was a Lear 45

[tigremarinomx]

Amigo el A1507 y el A1505 que cruza a 8300 pies son VFRs? Helis? Saludos gracias por subir el video.

[Arkthurius]

Son unos choperos...

[hulamo]

Why the part of the radar doesn't show the aircraft behind VMC, when you land in a crouded airport like Mexico City, as a pilot you have to see your traffic (The plane thats infront of you) why we haven't hear about the plane that was behind VMC the might have seen what happend to VMC.

[Arkthurius]

The plane who who flew behind the XC-VMC, and actually landed with no problems was a Click Mexicana Fokker 100 flight 7225 arriving from Oaxaca.

[Oscarletraud]

I don't believe in conspiration theories. It's evident that there was an accident due to wake turbulence. XCCVMC was too close to MXA1692 and approaching fast. Pilot lost control of the aircraft and problably rolled to the right since it fell down in the NW direction. Let's see what the black box has to say.

[mvidalr]

if they ever find it...

[Arkthurius]

Authorities said they have already found the 2 boxes and have been sent to the USA.