I was thinking about the same thing lat Sat. sitting in a gathering and asking in this age of the internet why dont we verify what our scholars have done in the past. For example most of us follow one of the 4 imams. Have we looked at their work or their interpretations and analyzed them with respect to the modern times? I am not asking for making changes in religion but rather a fresh perspective that is in tune with the principals of Islam.
@naybobdenod, Matthew 24:27-28 "For just as Barak cometh out of the East, shineth even unto the West, so shall it be as the Son of man cometh. For where the carcasses are, there also an Eagle in Union."
Genesis 49:10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, the lawgiver shall never surpass His ruling, until peace of rest is revealed, & then He will gather all His people."
Same story in Revelation 11:8-15 Juden & Christians receive peace of rest at hands of Muslims, Jesus comes.
and on topic now, that's what religion does, it makes the society more inert.
in a way it could be a good thing, because too fast chnages are hard for the people, but creating ideologic inertia inevitably brings friction and conflict.
in other words, religion is good not in spite of, but BECAUSE it keeps people stupider than they could be.
what the fuck is with this "is is" disease? this is is a dog... is that how you speak now? i don't even care about the english language, but this " is is" thing is is just stupid
I wish more intellectuals and thinkers who could reform this backward CULTURE that tries to be a religion. Oh , if only they wouldn't get killed by some stupid-uneducated-frightened-backward-childish-brainwashed-bastards who call themselves "true fallowers" (if only they would be true followers). Maybe some day in the future islam will get to the current century.
I want to ask my brothers a quesiton.In torah which jews say we follow torah and believe Moses and one God.If someone make adultery,its punishment is stoning.It is writing in Holy Torah.Is there anyone see Jews are stoning because of adultery.On the other hand,In Quran there is no punisment just like stoning but some müslim countries and groups make that punishment.And Jews media came and say Islam encourage violence and honor-killing.So say me believers.We follow sharia of Israel or Islam.
It is true what he says about Ijtihad, Muslims were always contemporary and forward thinking and the scholars were always open to Ijtihad. But today we're stuck in the past. Today we sadly separate science and education from Islam. What will Allah tell us? Allah's shariah is for all time- iqra!
@TheSaffyone Well yeah , just look at how the Taliban want people in Afganistan to live. By Sharia law that denys TV, Music, Sciences, most Medicines and the oppression of women. Very middle ages mentality.
Probably, but saudi arabia is a strange example where the leader is better than the people, saudis are extremists and every new step their government or king tries to take to move them ahead, they get in the way and declare war on modesty
@SilentG20 The MI6 is behind the creation of Salfia. The idea is to control the masses. It is a game turn against them. The Saudi family is not modest, it is Fasida corrupted. Islam is modest, for example, inside your home do what ever you want, the state has no control.
What we see in Saudi Arabia is a brain washed masses. Obay God, the prophet and the leaders with out questions. They put theirselves after the prophet.
True, the royal family has been granted power from outside... but I think the authorities in saudi arabia are only forced to create such things as "alhay2a" and others, and they're forced to employ the close minded mad sheihks that hate on women... because the people of saudi arabia are like that, the people there are mad closed minded and they don't believe women are equal human beings, the authorities cant change those people
you idiots who have the least idea about true islam teachings always keep repeating words that your media implants in your heads, one of them is "sharia law" the pronunciation isn't even close to the original word that means rules of islam, those rules encourage good deeds and morals and condemn crimes and has nothing to do with denying radios and tvs or turning women into black walking bags! get educated, please, read, get rid of ignorance.
Because he says that "rechecking" is good, he as well says that accepting dogma "makes one stagnant", yet practically refuses to apply the same principles of "inquiry and skepticism" to his own dogma.
(Yes, Ive listened to his online lectures in their entirety. For example he promotes suffering as something good coming from God/Allah, something that we should accept and perhaps even not question at all.)
Yes, that's a known fact we human beings would suffer or enjoy as God wants us to, it's all tests to our faith, and only those who stand strong will get the reward. I know you might disagree with me and scholars shouldn't say suffering is accepted, but believing in this in fact will teach you patience even when you're so poor, sick or hurt. Believing in God teaches you to be strong and work as hard as you can. Would you please point me out to the whole lectures? I haven't seen any.
@SilentG20 "thats a know fact" Is it? Can you provide any evidence? "Gods wants us to" How would you know that? "tests to our faiths" I can tell you what a fact is. Fact is that science demonstrably beats faith. "teach you patience" I guess when people become anemic/apathetic they in a way can be described as patient, too, yet this kind of patience seems rather detrimental (to those people). "believing in God teaches you .. hard as you can" Does it, really? watch?v=3Pk2-vr4sSw
Yes, many versus in the Qur'an talk about patience and how believers should bear with every obstacle and never give up. Life isn't all roses for us muslims, we need to work hard to get to heaven. This life is not our heaven, we're ought to give more than take. Since life is your heaven, Mr. Atheist wannabe parrot, you'll never get it. Here is a whole page that talks mainly about patience in the Qur'an:
Is it that why Muslims are found in an apathetic/anemic state of being?
"Life isnt all roses"
Who says that it is? Are you suffering from some kind of delusion?
"you will never get it"
You are a tool of ignorance. Just like Dr. Lang is. When pressed to give real explanations all you (and he) can do is to equivocate in the direction of the "mysterious ways". Theres something demonstrably wrong with your brains
Irrelevant? do you want me to prove that God wants us to be patience through physics?
And what do you mean by "muslims being in apathetic/anemic state of being"? should I show me how much blind grudge and ignorance you have towards all muslims in the world, only because they're muslims? the worst case of anemia is what I sense in your burnt nerves which started to smell bad. And don't talk of Dr. Lang, until you achieve what he's achieved one day, you're a maggot to him, and me.
Was that your original question? it wasn't. I'm not a physicist therefore I wouldn't talk of how to prove God through physics even if I could find it anywhere... but my knowledge of any other branch of science such as biology and linguistics has certainly given me many reasons to believe in God. Since you're the one who is attacking, can you disprove God with physics?
No... You asked a question which I answered. Subsequently you started calling me names and claimed you asked a different question. I demonstrated by quoting your original question (within its own context) that you were fooling around and started you calling you names, too.
"proving God through physics"
You cant do that? No problem! You seem to claim to have some expertise in biology! You can "prove" God through biology, too!
In principle its possible to disprove "God", e.g. the "classical theistic deity", with "material sciences" (e.g. physics, chemistry, statistical mechanics, etc.).
I asked you to disprove God with physics, and you answer that it's possible with the knowledge of "material sciences"? seriously, some people have so much free time to embarrass themselves in the public.
“Our Lord (glorified and exalted be He) descends each night to the earth’s sky when there remains the final third of the night, and He says: ‘Who is saying a prayer to Me that I may answer it? Who is asking something of Me that I may give it him? Who is asking forgiveness of Me that I may forgive him?’”
“Our Lord (glorified and exalted be He) descends each night to the earth’s sky when there remains the final third of the night, and He says: ‘Who is saying a prayer to Me that I may answer it? Who is asking something of Me that I may give it him? Who is asking forgiveness of Me that I may forgive him?’”
His words, achievements and scientific rank speak of him. Most important that he is a rational believer and millions around the world respect his views, are you any of these you useless youtube troll? if I were you I'd bury myself.
"his achievements and scientific rank speak of him"
Really? What about his delusions? Do those speak of him, too?
"rational believer"
Is it that why he was unable to answer my questions? Is it that why he has to invoke the "mysterious ways"? Is that rational? Is that a valid achievement? Of course not! LOL
"Troll"
You are certainly a YT Muslim troll. Now it must be obvious to any impartial observer.
What delusions? why do lonely atheists assume that people always know what they have in mind?
and what questions have you asked him and he didn't answer? well apparently you know he doesn't have as much time as you do to troll happy people on youtube.
Grow up already, what could anyone possibly use you for with that childish attitude? why would I waste my day tracking your question and your trash, if you had a serious question, then post it. No need for childish insults.
Poor typical atheist monkey descendant, always drawing back in tears. Your parents should have taught you many things, but what can I blame them for? they've got a monkey descendant!
"Fact is that science demonstrably beats faith" do you know what are you discussing? you were asking me about a religious matter, you wanted me to prove that God wanted us to be patient, what does "scientific facts" have to do with that? and on that video you gave me, it's funny, not as funny as when you had to point it out to show me that islam teaches laziness LOL!
More Islamic propaganda! You really think I havent "browsed" through all kind of Islamic propaganda already? You must really be mentally challenged, comrade!
Been there done that. Quran, Sunnah, Tafsir, Sirat, Tahafut, Umdat as-Salik, Fiqh, etc. Yet you dont seem to get it. You are slow and rude. You are a good Muslim.
Can't teenagers do anything without being rude? anyways, I wasn't asking for these videos you idiot, I was talking about this lecture in this video we're commenting on, obviously.
you're stressing out, does your atheism teach you to be more of a respectful person who knows how to involve in a discussion? All I asked for was the rest of this lecture, and I get all of that from a teenager, lucky me! HAHA you don't have it, just STFU.
Didnt you know? Atheism doesnt teach anything. The simplest definition of atheism is lack of belief in theistic deity and or deities. Other definitions include the denial/refutation of "key" theistic positions, yet still dont "teach" anything beyond that.
"respectful"
Youve been rude and disrespectful. In addition youve been exposed as a crackpot in our short exchange.
Muslims don't do pot or weed, muslims minds are always awake, only atheists and pagans (and the like) do these things, I'd throw a guess and say you're on weed now, you don't even know what you're talking about. Who started attacking the other you maggot? I asked for a link politely, but once you knew I was a muslim you started throwing insults, it's a brain illness when you have a severe problem accepting others only because they're happier than the pathetic thing you are.
@Wrath0fKhan He's actually not talking about dogma or doctrine at all. He's talking about the dangers dedication to a specific declaration or interpretation of the Qu'ran. If you missed that point, review his usage of the sciences, history, etc. If we do not hold sacred the words of a single historian, scientist, or mathematician, then why isn't that same scrutiny applied to a scholar of the Qu'ran? Lang's focus is in criticism of the Muslim community's confusion/mixing of culture and doctrine.
Is he a Muslim? Does being a Muslim include a "dogma"? If so, what kind of "dogma" is it?
"specific declaration or interpretation of the Quran"
Yet those declarations and interpretations were already explored by early Muslims and according to "dogma" and "tradition" are considered valid. So whats his point then.
"historian, scientist, mathematician"
Sure. So why wouldnt Muslims apply the same critical standard?
"Langs focus is in criticism of the Muslim communitys confusion/mixing of culture and doctrine"
Really, is there even a distinction between those two? If so, what is it?
To dispel your invalid notion, let me quote Dr. Lang: "when they cant even recover the original, relevant message ... they cant even recover a link between that message and themselves"
What is the relevant message of Islam? Is there a genuine need to recover such a message? Or is it a message which should rather be critically analyzed and updated? Just as "we update" the work of historians, scientists or mathematicians, etc...
It doesnt make sense on one side to demand scrutiny, yet on the other side to "proclaim a mysterious link" and "relevance" by "fiat".
@Wrath0fKhan No you can't say that. Life is a test. God says he will test us in health, wealth and children. All there will be trials and tribulations. This life is less then an hour compared to the next life. When humans are about to die who do they turn to? God ofcourse. They will feel nothing but fear.
@CheekiShit "no you cant say that" I can say whatever I want to. On the other hand, Im ready to accept the correspondent consequences as well. "Life is a test" Prove it! (E.g. provide consistent evidence.) "God says" What? "will test us in" Yet this applies without any kind of "god", too. Just the the reference to "a test" is a non-sequitur. "trials and tribulations" This "god" as well provides technology how to counter those (e.g. see HQ 35). Its been tested. It doesnt work.
"best things in the earth is achieved through suffering"
Really? Like what? Genocide of the Kurds by Saddam Hussein? Maybe genocide of the Kurds by Turkey?
"healthy body ... exercise"
Healthy exercise for a healthy body should never be about suffering. If you want to push yourself beyond some limits, becoming some semi-professional, or professional athlete, thats your choice and its not imposed on you by others.
ya. i get you point.. its not about suffering... suddenly everything is achieved without suffering.. america obtained its freedom without civil war.. became a great nation.. without any suffering..
there was no suffering in family member of american troops.. cos everybody got back from any war intact, no arms missing.. legs attached..
some people suffer for you.. so you dont have to..
suffering is not only genocide of the kurds by saddam.. like i said, think..
Surely the war (just as any war) was unnecessary suffering... If only people could reason things out, if we could identify murderous despots before they get into power and so on... Id recommend you to read Professor Steven Pinkers latest book - The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has declined.
Exactly! Think about that nonsensical dogma! What did the black death bring? Progress? Made us rich? We learned to understand it much too late and after the fact.
@Wrath0fKhan your DOGMA is that this religion is based on belief.. not proof..
to say it as a dogma.. you have to proof that it is based on absolute belief system.. no evidence or whatsoever..
so, what you know is actually what the MEDIA has indoctrinate into your mind.. so you to you its a nonsencial dogma.. but u fail to reason.. and investigate the religion..
"your dogma is that religion is based on belief .. not proof"
Erm... My dogma? I dont subscribe to dogma. If Id subscribe to an approach in assessing this world, our existence, ect., it surely be to evidencialism. Your so called religious proofs were shown to be either invalid or irrelevant.
"proof"
Its common knowledge, buddy. Islamic dogmatic studies (of belief) are called "aqidah."
What proof? Do you even know what "proof" is about?
"media told you"
Like what? Concerning Islam I believe what Ive learned from diverse traditional Islamic sources (like the Translations of the Meanings, Tafsir, Sahih Hadith, Sirat, history books, etc.)
"islamophobia websites"
Quran and Sahih Hadith are the best "Islamophobic websites" themselves. The recorded actions of Muslim states are the best "Islamophobic websites" themselves.
@Wrath0fKhan how can i believe you.. if you have no proof.. can u just say that in a court of law.. "Believe me judge.. he stole my bike.. so get him".
i said read the quran.. have u found any errors in it?
nasty one? that easy? u have not provide me with proof.. and suddenly it a NASTY ONE.
give me just one proof.. not two, three or more.. just one.. The BEST one you can get.
Its actually much worse than that. How can I believe you if you claim to have "proof," yet when examined your proof crumbles as invalid. This is exactly how we rule things out.
"have u found any errors in it"
Sure... Plenty of errors.
"one proof"
This here is "proof:" "Better Angels of Our Nature: How Violence Has Declined" - book by Professor Steven Pinker. Read it. Its something like a "field survey."
Sure... By looking and analyzing their behavior in relation to recorded history and in relation to Islamic teachings. In what case these function well, in what they dont, searching for mechanisms, explanations, ect.
"thats not studying islam"
No... Thats only a part of the exercise.
"that is human science"
Islam is a subject of human science. "Its" written on paper, it entails commandments, promises, explanations , histories...
@Wrath0fKhan so your understanding.. Islam is subjected to human? its not a revelation? its man made? is that what you think? thats why you say Islam is A SUBJECT of Human Science..
The Quran, includes human science, the behaviors, characters.. so that we may know.. and learn..
So, studying how muslim react.. is not necessarily Islamic..
plainly, i a muslim imbide alcholic drinks, is that Islam?
"plainly, i a muslim imbide alcoholic drinks, is that Islam"
Of course not... However, if Muslims believe homosexuals, adulterers, apostates should be put to death according to the "rules" of the Sunnah, is that (traditional) Islam? Indeed!
@Wrath0fKhan your not getting my point.. you got it at first when you say "OF COURSE NOT".. suddenly u sway to muslims beliefs.. THE MUSLIMS can believe WHAT EVER THEY WANT.. there ARE SO CALLED MUSLIMS that THINK they are EQUAL TO GOD.. do you know that?
my point is.. look at the SOURCE.. but if u keep on coming to the muslim.. its pointless..
that is what i am trying to tell you.. "muslim can DRINK ALCOHOL" they can THINK LIKE PHARAOH.. or COMMIT ADULTERY..
The Quran says NO. but they can still do it if THEY WANT.. what part of CHOOSING for YOURSELF of HAVING YOUR OWN WILL. that U dont UNDERSTAND??
its not about SHIRK rububiyyah, not about hell or heavan, right or wrong.. what i am trying to tell you that. HUMAN have THEIR OWN WILL.. regardless what the QURAN SAYS.
@Wrath0fKhan yup.. i heard about it.. my thought was.. EVERYTHING has been destined so.. what ever i do.. i will endup like what has been written in Lauh Mahfuz...
actually.. you are right.. but the question is.. who knows what is written other than The GOD.. ?? you? have you any knowledge of it? you professor? or maybe the angels??
So your "free will" was "destined," too, and hence in realty is not "free will" at all. Thats because it has to follow predestined (already prerecorded) paths.
@Wrath0fKhan now your trying to be like GOD.. ALL KNOWING.. how can u say its not free will or it is PREDESTINED if you DO NOT KNOW what will happen to you??
No... You are trying to equivocate. You are on the run.
"all knowing"
What? We dont need to know all to demonstrate whether the tablets are significant or just a fantasy of yours. We dont need to look "everywhere" to rule out a god that is supposedly omnipresent. And you still dont get it.
What? Of course it happened. Its happening with every single response of yours. Its not about physically running anywhere. Its about equivocating and providing more and more irrelevant distractions in this little exchange we are having.
Because according to your fantasy, its Allah who knows, making my and your choices only an illusion, since these are part of everything and since everything was already pre-recorded in the tablets.
And since everything includes the entirety of all things (creation, movement of atoms, ect.), i dont need to know it all (i.e. in detail) to derive this logically valid conclusion.
Again... Provide evidence that there actually is a "he" in the first place. More so, Ive already explained to you that knowing everything includes "existence" in its entirety. I dont need to know exactly what "existence" includes to understand that the implications of knowing all of existence.
@Wrath0fKhan again... we were discussing about pre-destination.. not His EXISTENCE.. thats what i mean by '' you are not listening "
still dont get it??
ok nevermind.. lets move on (predestination - u win). Now, what kind of evidence do you want? do you want to see GOD.. is that what you mean? physically see GOD, then you believe? give me what evidence do you want.. just type of EVIDENCE that YOU REQUIRE.. i will try my best to provide you with it.
"we are discussing about pre-destination, not about his existence"
Quantum physics has ruled out predestination in the classical sense of meaning. That is, thermodynamics does apply (i.e. the "running down" of the universe on average), however, the fine-structure of this process is unpredictable and can only be accounted for after "measurement." This was experimentally proved over and over again with ever greater precision. It follows, that "measuring" equals "knowing."
"what kind of evidence do you want? do you want to see god"
In one way or the other, "I" want to "measure" (even if indirectly) those actions of "his" which are "measurable." This is the only way how to prove "his" existence. If you cant provide this, you have no "justification" to claim with certainty a or the "god" would exist.
"evidence that you require"
Ive already alluded to plenty of "requirements" repeatedly. Could your god sustain you if you were confined under water?
Exactly! And since your god can do "anything," he can easily tell you whats written there and we can test that particular claim (e.g. what particles will pop up out of vacuum, where, at what time - exactly). This has no bearing on my previous claims. None whatsoever.
"that knowledge belongs to Allah alone"
In your fantasy, it surely does. However, you cant demonstrate the truth value of that claim. Still dont get it?
Exactly! Here we return back to the "perfect recipe" once again. That doesnt make sense whatsoever. Why? Because a "truly perfect" recipe cant fail. Thats why its called perfect in every aspect. The "Islamic source" does not fit into this category.
@Wrath0fKhan if God wills that human must obey His Commands.. He dont have to send His Messenger, and scriptures.. as your so called RECEIPE.. If He wills it, we just say.. BE and IT IS..
but reffering to YOUR definition of PERFECTION, if you are given the power to create something.. you cant create something perfect..
What GOD will (from my understanding) is that we HUMAN, must CHOOSE.. that is His WILL..
and Human is actually perfect for he/she can choose on its OWN WILL..
"u claimed that u know whats in the preserved tablets"
Erm... Sure... At least in part I do. So do you. Since EVERYTHING is written there and we are part of everything, it follows that at least in part (even if only subjectively) we do know whats written there. Simple and irrefutable logic. The real deal however is to demonstrate the significance of those tablets. You need to show something what is or will become eventually true, yet currently is unknown. Go ahead.
@Wrath0fKhan no i did not.. i said it is to Him who has the Knowledge.. He has the Luh Al MAHFUZ.. so He KNOWS what is going to happen.. to Him, its PREDESTINED..
not me..
but you.. u claimed it is predestined.. FOR YOU.. so you must know what is going to happen.. similarly.. you are claiming.. that u are like GOD.. all knowing..
So it is predestined... Hence you have no real choice, since the record only plays out according to the book. Every single atom, every single electron, every single proton, every single cell of your brain... Guess what, you have no control over all of this. None whatsoever. Allah does (according to Islamic fantasy).
It does not follow your choice is therefore real, because it already "was" pre-recorded. And you still dont get it, right? Concerning choices; even neuro-science proves at least on some level that there is a type of choices which are entirely prepared unconsciously and people start consciously experiencing them after the fact only.
"u dont know whats recorded and say its predestined"
Sure because (as the text said) EVERYTHING "was" recorded BEFOREHAND. I dont need to know a single thing except that it indeed "was" everything. Still dont get it? lol
"u dont know whats recorded and say its predestined"
Sure because (as the text said) EVERYTHING "was" recorded BEFOREHAND. I dont need to know a single thing except that it indeed "was" everything. Still dont get it? lol
Hahaha... So many of your buddies (in Islam) have failed and you think you can do better? All I need is a single fruit fly out of nothing on my table. Verily, its easy for Allah!
Dont you see? And this way; this way no one will get harmed in the process either. Am I not more merciful than your Allah?
Actually, its you who did that. You denied Allahs omniscience repeatedly.
"your are not being merciful even to yourself"
What a preposterous and unsubstantiated claim.
"compare yourself to the creator"
Still no "proof." Yet again, we compare things regularly. Consciously and unconsciously all the time. If we didnt, we would end up pretty fast destroyed by biological competition, blind natural farces, etc. ;-)
@Wrath0fKhan i have no control??? well.. i can say what ever i want.. in this video comentary, i can control what i say in my comments.. ITS ALL ME.. but i also know that HE KNOWS what I will DO..
i have control over my choices.. but in stopping the time, controlling weather, lightning, that i have no control.. so im not responsible..
but my own choice.. that i have to be responsible..
So if "he" knows, if everything you will do was already pre-recorded, you had no real choice. Every atom in your brain, every electrochemical reaction responsible for your behavior "was" already accounted for. What you experience as "control" is nothing more but an illusion.
"my own choice ... to be responsible"
Yet under the "rules of the preserved tablets" even that was already recorded beforehand. Making us all just puppets in a pathetic play.
@Wrath0fKhan pathetic play?.. hmm.. u cant even create a fly.. but have the nerve to say its all just a pathetic play..
He created the universe, the sun, stars.. galaxies.. everything.. so that u are amazed by it.. and submits your will to Him..
instead, you assume you know like what He knows. saying its prerecorded in preserved tablets which u know nothing of and arrogantly says its pathetic..
didnt even create a single thing in your life, but wanted to be like the CREATOR..
"He created the universe, the sun, starts, galaxies, everything"
Everything?!?! And "he" cant create even a single fruit fly on my table out of nothing? That you call everything? Thats really weak. And wheres the evidence for all your claims? Dont tell me its in the Quran... And if you do, wheres the evidence supporting the claims in the Quran? Deont tell me its around ourselves. Why? Because we didnt see/cant account for anything created by Allah. Anything at all.
@Wrath0fKhan thats what i mean by seeing they see not..
IF THE SUN HE CREATED, THE GALAXIES, THE STARS.. could not convince you.. then how would you see a single fruit fly.. compare the EVIDENCE..
If, he Wills it, He can create a fly infront of you.. but what is the use of your brain He has given to you? just to feel pleasure all the time? to have it all on your way? to instruct GOD what to do??
The Brain, the sight, hearing, mind, soul.. all of the senses.. what is it for?
Thats what we mean when saying that you guys are evidently suffering from some delusional disorder.
"if the sun he created"
Where you there? No. Can you provide some evidence in support of your claim? No. So why should I believe what you are saying?
"if he wills it"
There is no other way than by revealing what is least likely. Thats because what is most likely, usual, ect. cannot serve as evidence in support of your claim.
"the brain, the sight, hearing, mind, soul all of the senses what is it for"
Dont know about soul... The brain is an organ, it produces mind, serves as a managing center for the senses and so on. It helps more biologically complex/evolved animals to cope better with the surrounding world and hence increases their survivability.
Sure... Because that one is CERTAIN. Its certain because it says so in the Quran. Right? And it says "he" created everything. Every single atom. Which as well implies he created chaos theory, too. And that one implies, that you have no real choice because its chaos that rules subatomic particles, and because of that, everything else depends on it and cant be predicted with certainty. Yet this would negate the already claimed everything. lo
Does it really matter? I didnt claim I did. You claim your buddy Allah did. You still keep failing to provide relevant evidence in support of that claim.
"but wanted to be like the creator"
Again... These straw man propositions are of no help to you. None whatsoever. Prove the creator-claim. Provide evidence. Apply Hadith Qudsi 35 and let Allah make a fruit fly out of nothing on my table.
Well... As it looks like, you adamantly keep refusing to bring anything useful to the table. Instead you once again deliver one of your meaningless sayings. Congratulations.
@Wrath0fKhan i did bring something useful to the table.. but u insist on a fruit fly.. now how to deal with that kind of a person.. and does not want to listen..
Well... Thats easy, isnt it. Ask Allah to provide the fruit fly. You just need to be a sincere Muslim in your prayer. Maybe you are just a fake and thats what you are afraid of. :-)
"and does not want to listen"
Listen to what? Your misconceptions about reality? Demonstrate your claims. Something you failed to do yet.
Demonstrate creation in the first place. Secondly, a "perfect recipe" should at least guarantee success most of the time. Islam is the opposite, it guarantees failure most of the time. That is because most people according to Islam will end up in "hell." And if thats what you consider "perfect," you (or your Allah) has to be an evil entity. Simple as that. ;-)
I was thinking about the same thing lat Sat. sitting in a gathering and asking in this age of the internet why dont we verify what our scholars have done in the past. For example most of us follow one of the 4 imams. Have we looked at their work or their interpretations and analyzed them with respect to the modern times? I am not asking for making changes in religion but rather a fresh perspective that is in tune with the principals of Islam.
kaibabo 2 months ago
it is true in the bible :)
askingyou4life 6 months ago
islam is the worlds cancer and should be treat accordingly
naybobdenod 9 months ago
@naybobdenod, Amen on your comment that Islam is the world's cancer.
It will finally stop all of Judah from breathing and that is when Jesus returns. Don't believe me? Read Genesis 49:10 and Revelation 11:8-15.
ABAisSCIENCE 1 month ago
@ABAisSCIENCE jesus returns,get a life ffs
naybobdenod 1 month ago
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@naybobdenod, Matthew 24:27-28 "For just as Barak cometh out of the East, shineth even unto the West, so shall it be as the Son of man cometh. For where the carcasses are, there also an Eagle in Union."
Genesis 49:10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, the lawgiver shall never surpass His ruling, until peace of rest is revealed, & then He will gather all His people."
Same story in Revelation 11:8-15 Juden & Christians receive peace of rest at hands of Muslims, Jesus comes.
ABAisSCIENCE 1 month ago
he`s good Alhamdolillah. Natural. Real. Passionate.
makemelaughwhydontu 1 year ago 2
and on topic now, that's what religion does, it makes the society more inert.
in a way it could be a good thing, because too fast chnages are hard for the people, but creating ideologic inertia inevitably brings friction and conflict.
in other words, religion is good not in spite of, but BECAUSE it keeps people stupider than they could be.
De4sher 1 year ago
what the fuck is with this "is is" disease? this is is a dog... is that how you speak now? i don't even care about the english language, but this " is is" thing is is just stupid
De4sher 1 year ago
I study all relegions on this world , I slam is the only relegion who explains this life right. all you need is to study Islam " sunni " by yourself.
brd1243 1 year ago
I wish more intellectuals and thinkers who could reform this backward CULTURE that tries to be a religion. Oh , if only they wouldn't get killed by some stupid-uneducated-frightened-backward-childish-brainwashed-bastards who call themselves "true fallowers" (if only they would be true followers). Maybe some day in the future islam will get to the current century.
unitasetmagus 1 year ago
I'm glad I've left Islam. That is all I have to say.
ogaal83 1 year ago
I want to ask my brothers a quesiton.In torah which jews say we follow torah and believe Moses and one God.If someone make adultery,its punishment is stoning.It is writing in Holy Torah.Is there anyone see Jews are stoning because of adultery.On the other hand,In Quran there is no punisment just like stoning but some müslim countries and groups make that punishment.And Jews media came and say Islam encourage violence and honor-killing.So say me believers.We follow sharia of Israel or Islam.
yigitinebolulu 1 year ago
His conversion story is nice but he should stick with that. He is not a scholar and not qualified to talk about what he has not studied.
We need to know our places.
matero30 1 year ago
It is true what he says about Ijtihad, Muslims were always contemporary and forward thinking and the scholars were always open to Ijtihad. But today we're stuck in the past. Today we sadly separate science and education from Islam. What will Allah tell us? Allah's shariah is for all time- iqra!
DaughterOfAsena 1 year ago 3
He is talking about closing the book on ijtihad. Not the Quran.
Piddyx 1 year ago
lol, wow "brother" jeffrey, deep stuff, "it's too hard work", mashaAllah, very "deep" and "relevant". I wonder if this guy knows any quran or hadith.
musalman7 1 year ago
UR BIBLE WAS MAN WRITTEN DO SHUT DA FUCK UP U WASTEMAN!!!! THE QURAN WAS GIFTED!!
redevil005 1 year ago
@redevil005 qell quran was also men writed, u know.... men wrote it anyways
alinepoirot 1 year ago
@redevil005 'gifted' LOL?
from where exactly...remember the ERRORS OF THAT ERA in it for all to see tell us its actual sourxces
so a gift with hate/sex/myth/deceit/and fixated on punishements/genitalia/rituals eh lol
proudfemale 1 year ago
beautiful argument and i know ppl will still talk shit man lolz
srabonaziz 1 year ago
I agree with the professor in this issue.
our scholars are outdated.
TheSaffyone 1 year ago
@TheSaffyone Well yeah , just look at how the Taliban want people in Afganistan to live. By Sharia law that denys TV, Music, Sciences, most Medicines and the oppression of women. Very middle ages mentality.
Riyun72 1 year ago 2
@Riyun72 I am a born Muslim from Yemen but I think new converts understand Islam better the born Muslims.
Islam to us is mixed with culture while to them a search for truth.
The professor speaks logic. Is Islam anti women? in Saudi Arabia they are not allowed to drive why? who said so?
Islam is justice, and you won't find that in Saudi Arabia
Islam is not in Salafia. Salafia is a tribal Islam.
Islam is a religion and state.
TheSaffyone 1 year ago
@TheSaffyone
Thumbs up from palestine, you're an enlightened brother.
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20 Thanks brother. Saudi Arabia is following the Sharia of Israel.
TheSaffyone 1 year ago
@TheSaffyone
Probably, but saudi arabia is a strange example where the leader is better than the people, saudis are extremists and every new step their government or king tries to take to move them ahead, they get in the way and declare war on modesty
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20 The MI6 is behind the creation of Salfia. The idea is to control the masses. It is a game turn against them. The Saudi family is not modest, it is Fasida corrupted. Islam is modest, for example, inside your home do what ever you want, the state has no control.
What we see in Saudi Arabia is a brain washed masses. Obay God, the prophet and the leaders with out questions. They put theirselves after the prophet.
TheSaffyone 1 year ago
@TheSaffyone
True, the royal family has been granted power from outside... but I think the authorities in saudi arabia are only forced to create such things as "alhay2a" and others, and they're forced to employ the close minded mad sheihks that hate on women... because the people of saudi arabia are like that, the people there are mad closed minded and they don't believe women are equal human beings, the authorities cant change those people
SilentG20 1 year ago
@Riyun72
you idiots who have the least idea about true islam teachings always keep repeating words that your media implants in your heads, one of them is "sharia law" the pronunciation isn't even close to the original word that means rules of islam, those rules encourage good deeds and morals and condemn crimes and has nothing to do with denying radios and tvs or turning women into black walking bags! get educated, please, read, get rid of ignorance.
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
What a load of nonsense...
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 6
@Wrath0fKhan
why
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
Because he says that "rechecking" is good, he as well says that accepting dogma "makes one stagnant", yet practically refuses to apply the same principles of "inquiry and skepticism" to his own dogma.
(Yes, Ive listened to his online lectures in their entirety. For example he promotes suffering as something good coming from God/Allah, something that we should accept and perhaps even not question at all.)
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 12
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@Wrath0fKhan
Yes, that's a known fact we human beings would suffer or enjoy as God wants us to, it's all tests to our faith, and only those who stand strong will get the reward. I know you might disagree with me and scholars shouldn't say suffering is accepted, but believing in this in fact will teach you patience even when you're so poor, sick or hurt. Believing in God teaches you to be strong and work as hard as you can. Would you please point me out to the whole lectures? I haven't seen any.
SilentG20 1 year ago
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 5
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@Wrath0fKhan
Yes, many versus in the Qur'an talk about patience and how believers should bear with every obstacle and never give up. Life isn't all roses for us muslims, we need to work hard to get to heaven. This life is not our heaven, we're ought to give more than take. Since life is your heaven, Mr. Atheist wannabe parrot, you'll never get it. Here is a whole page that talks mainly about patience in the Qur'an:
alhikmeh.com/arabic/mktba/akhlaq/alsabr/04.htm
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
"versus in the Quran talk about patience"
Irrelevant.
"never give up"
Is it that why Muslims are found in an apathetic/anemic state of being?
"Life isnt all roses"
Who says that it is? Are you suffering from some kind of delusion?
"you will never get it"
You are a tool of ignorance. Just like Dr. Lang is. When pressed to give real explanations all you (and he) can do is to equivocate in the direction of the "mysterious ways". Theres something demonstrably wrong with your brains
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 3
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@Wrath0fKhan
Irrelevant? do you want me to prove that God wants us to be patience through physics?
And what do you mean by "muslims being in apathetic/anemic state of being"? should I show me how much blind grudge and ignorance you have towards all muslims in the world, only because they're muslims? the worst case of anemia is what I sense in your burnt nerves which started to smell bad. And don't talk of Dr. Lang, until you achieve what he's achieved one day, you're a maggot to him, and me.
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
"God wants us to be patience through physics"
No... I want you to prove God through physics. Not just some random "background noise" attribute to "your personal God".
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 5
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@Wrath0fKhan
Was that your original question? it wasn't. I'm not a physicist therefore I wouldn't talk of how to prove God through physics even if I could find it anywhere... but my knowledge of any other branch of science such as biology and linguistics has certainly given me many reasons to believe in God. Since you're the one who is attacking, can you disprove God with physics?
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
"Was that your original question"
No... You asked a question which I answered. Subsequently you started calling me names and claimed you asked a different question. I demonstrated by quoting your original question (within its own context) that you were fooling around and started you calling you names, too.
"proving God through physics"
You cant do that? No problem! You seem to claim to have some expertise in biology! You can "prove" God through biology, too!
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 5
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@Wrath0fKhan
I don't know where to start with a teenager, but I can always try. How do people learn language?
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
"can you disprove God with physics"
In principle its possible to disprove "God", e.g. the "classical theistic deity", with "material sciences" (e.g. physics, chemistry, statistical mechanics, etc.).
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 3
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@Wrath0fKhan
I asked you to disprove God with physics, and you answer that it's possible with the knowledge of "material sciences"? seriously, some people have so much free time to embarrass themselves in the public.
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
Sacred Hadith 35:
“Our Lord (glorified and exalted be He) descends each night to the earth’s sky when there remains the final third of the night, and He says: ‘Who is saying a prayer to Me that I may answer it? Who is asking something of Me that I may give it him? Who is asking forgiveness of Me that I may forgive him?’”
Go ahead...
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 4
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@Wrath0fKhan
what's your point? do you need a physical prove that God forgives people? LOL
SilentG20 1 year ago
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@SilentG20
"physical prove that god forgives people"
Again?
HQ 35:
“Our Lord (glorified and exalted be He) descends each night to the earth’s sky when there remains the final third of the night, and He says: ‘Who is saying a prayer to Me that I may answer it? Who is asking something of Me that I may give it him? Who is asking forgiveness of Me that I may forgive him?’”
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 5
@SilentG20
"maggot"
You are already a maggot. So is Dr. Lang. :))
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 4
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@Wrath0fKhan
His words, achievements and scientific rank speak of him. Most important that he is a rational believer and millions around the world respect his views, are you any of these you useless youtube troll? if I were you I'd bury myself.
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
"his achievements and scientific rank speak of him"
Really? What about his delusions? Do those speak of him, too?
"rational believer"
Is it that why he was unable to answer my questions? Is it that why he has to invoke the "mysterious ways"? Is that rational? Is that a valid achievement? Of course not! LOL
"Troll"
You are certainly a YT Muslim troll. Now it must be obvious to any impartial observer.
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 4
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@Wrath0fKhan
What delusions? why do lonely atheists assume that people always know what they have in mind?
and what questions have you asked him and he didn't answer? well apparently you know he doesn't have as much time as you do to troll happy people on youtube.
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
Are you lonely, comrade? Do you need some comforting?
"assume that people always know what they have in mind"
Stop assuming, then! Stop projecting your unspoken/unwritten thoughts on others and blaming them for failure! Better start applying critical thinking skills. Start challenging "that" dogma. ;-)
"and what questions have you asked him"
You are too lazy, too slow. Indeed a good Muslim, Id admit that.
"troll"
If Im a troll, what are you? A super duper troll?
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 10
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@Wrath0fKhan
Grow up already, what could anyone possibly use you for with that childish attitude? why would I waste my day tracking your question and your trash, if you had a serious question, then post it. No need for childish insults.
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
"childish attitude"
You Muhammadan Tool of Ignorance... Havent you still managed to look into the "mirror"?
I guess its time to part our ways. Enjoy your eternal drug of ignorance.
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 3
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@Wrath0fKhan
Poor typical atheist monkey descendant, always drawing back in tears. Your parents should have taught you many things, but what can I blame them for? they've got a monkey descendant!
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
"alhikmeh"
Delusional fairy tales. Your conduct here serves as (additional) evidence (supporting my claim).
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 3
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@Wrath0fKhan
"Fact is that science demonstrably beats faith" do you know what are you discussing? you were asking me about a religious matter, you wanted me to prove that God wanted us to be patient, what does "scientific facts" have to do with that? and on that video you gave me, it's funny, not as funny as when you had to point it out to show me that islam teaches laziness LOL!
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
"do you know what are you discussing"
My criteria are simple and efficient. Can you provide testable evidence supporting your claims?
"you wanted me to prove that God wanted us to be patient"
Did I? Even if... Did you "prove" that? No. You started referring to Quranic verses. That certainly is no "proof".
"what does scientific facts have to do with that"
Scientific inquiry helps us to establish what "is" (e.g. what is fact and what is not so).
"laziness"
QED...
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 2
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@Wrath0fKhan
read these, educate yourself on the matter of work in islam:
islamonline(net)/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503544536&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
LOL
More Islamic propaganda! You really think I havent "browsed" through all kind of Islamic propaganda already? You must really be mentally challenged, comrade!
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 3
@Wrath0fKhan
islamreligion(com)/articles/295/
Because I can't point out each single verse and explain them here, you need to observe for yourself.
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
"observer for yourself"
Been there done that. Quran, Sunnah, Tafsir, Sirat, Tahafut, Umdat as-Salik, Fiqh, etc. Yet you dont seem to get it. You are slow and rude. You are a good Muslim.
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 3
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@Wrath0fKhan
turntoislam(com)/forum/showthread(php)?t=66190
replace these ()
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
"Would you please point me out to the whole lectures"
Usually I dont approve of intellectual laziness. Yet since you ask so nicely, Im willing to make an exception this time.
From Atheism to Belief:
watch?v=qVQ1BWqjTjs
Women & the Mosque
watch?v=SgaK4D58HCg
Losing my Religion: A Cry for Help
watch?v=xMANKaX8khw
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 3
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@Wrath0fKhan
Can't teenagers do anything without being rude? anyways, I wasn't asking for these videos you idiot, I was talking about this lecture in this video we're commenting on, obviously.
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
"teenagers do anything without being rude"
Are you a teenager? You sound very rude...
"I wansnt asking you idiot, I was asking about this lecture"
You: "Would you please point me out to the whole lectures? I haven't seen any."
Ive pointed you to (some of his) whole lectures. Demonstrable fact. So who is the idiot? You of course.
"obviously"
Obviously not, stupid.
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago
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@Wrath0fKhan
you're stressing out, does your atheism teach you to be more of a respectful person who knows how to involve in a discussion? All I asked for was the rest of this lecture, and I get all of that from a teenager, lucky me! HAHA you don't have it, just STFU.
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
"does your atheism teach you (XYZ)"
Didnt you know? Atheism doesnt teach anything. The simplest definition of atheism is lack of belief in theistic deity and or deities. Other definitions include the denial/refutation of "key" theistic positions, yet still dont "teach" anything beyond that.
"respectful"
Youve been rude and disrespectful. In addition youve been exposed as a crackpot in our short exchange.
"rest of this lecture"
I quoted you exactly. Anyone here can look it up.
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 5
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@Wrath0fKhan
Muslims don't do pot or weed, muslims minds are always awake, only atheists and pagans (and the like) do these things, I'd throw a guess and say you're on weed now, you don't even know what you're talking about. Who started attacking the other you maggot? I asked for a link politely, but once you knew I was a muslim you started throwing insults, it's a brain illness when you have a severe problem accepting others only because they're happier than the pathetic thing you are.
SilentG20 1 year ago
@SilentG20
"Muslims dont do pot or weed"
Maybe they do, maybe they dont. Yet a much worse drug then those you mention here is Islam itself.
"you are on weed"
I dont do drugs. Yet you are evidently "on Islam". You are slow and obviously heavily mentally challenged.
"started attacking"
You of course, you shit head (e.g. head full of shit)! LOL
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 4
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@SilentG20
"problem accepting others"
Really? Lets have a look then!
"Ultimate social racism" - Quran (according to Qurancomplex), Surah Al-Imran, Verse 85:
And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 6
@Wrath0fKhan He's actually not talking about dogma or doctrine at all. He's talking about the dangers dedication to a specific declaration or interpretation of the Qu'ran. If you missed that point, review his usage of the sciences, history, etc. If we do not hold sacred the words of a single historian, scientist, or mathematician, then why isn't that same scrutiny applied to a scholar of the Qu'ran? Lang's focus is in criticism of the Muslim community's confusion/mixing of culture and doctrine.
derivatimm 1 year ago
@derivatimm
"not talking about dogma or doctrine at all"
Is he a Muslim? Does being a Muslim include a "dogma"? If so, what kind of "dogma" is it?
"specific declaration or interpretation of the Quran"
Yet those declarations and interpretations were already explored by early Muslims and according to "dogma" and "tradition" are considered valid. So whats his point then.
"historian, scientist, mathematician"
Sure. So why wouldnt Muslims apply the same critical standard?
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago
@derivatimm
"Langs focus is in criticism of the Muslim communitys confusion/mixing of culture and doctrine"
Really, is there even a distinction between those two? If so, what is it?
To dispel your invalid notion, let me quote Dr. Lang: "when they cant even recover the original, relevant message ... they cant even recover a link between that message and themselves"
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago
@derivatimm
What is the relevant message of Islam? Is there a genuine need to recover such a message? Or is it a message which should rather be critically analyzed and updated? Just as "we update" the work of historians, scientists or mathematicians, etc...
It doesnt make sense on one side to demand scrutiny, yet on the other side to "proclaim a mysterious link" and "relevance" by "fiat".
Wrath0fKhan 1 year ago 3
@Wrath0fKhan No you can't say that. Life is a test. God says he will test us in health, wealth and children. All there will be trials and tribulations. This life is less then an hour compared to the next life. When humans are about to die who do they turn to? God ofcourse. They will feel nothing but fear.
CheekiShit 5 months ago
Wrath0fKhan 5 months ago
@CheekiShit
"when humans die .. nothing but fear"
Sorry, but thats nonsense.
Wrath0fKhan 5 months ago
@Wrath0fKhan the best things in the earth is achieved through suffering one way or the other..
if i want to have healthy body.. they best way is to exersice..
i have not seen, a man who eats, lounge, watch tv all his life.. no suffering.. suddenly have 'six pack'..
people who dont go to work, suddenly become rich
ya.. i think you dont have to accept.. cause he was not asking you to accept.. but to think..
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"best things in the earth is achieved through suffering"
Really? Like what? Genocide of the Kurds by Saddam Hussein? Maybe genocide of the Kurds by Turkey?
"healthy body ... exercise"
Healthy exercise for a healthy body should never be about suffering. If you want to push yourself beyond some limits, becoming some semi-professional, or professional athlete, thats your choice and its not imposed on you by others.
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@Wrath0fKhan
ya. i get you point.. its not about suffering... suddenly everything is achieved without suffering.. america obtained its freedom without civil war.. became a great nation.. without any suffering..
there was no suffering in family member of american troops.. cos everybody got back from any war intact, no arms missing.. legs attached..
some people suffer for you.. so you dont have to..
suffering is not only genocide of the kurds by saddam.. like i said, think..
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"America obtained its freedom without civil war"
Surely the war (just as any war) was unnecessary suffering... If only people could reason things out, if we could identify murderous despots before they get into power and so on... Id recommend you to read Professor Steven Pinkers latest book - The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has declined.
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"to think"
Exactly! Think about that nonsensical dogma! What did the black death bring? Progress? Made us rich? We learned to understand it much too late and after the fact.
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@Wrath0fKhan your DOGMA is that this religion is based on belief.. not proof..
to say it as a dogma.. you have to proof that it is based on absolute belief system.. no evidence or whatsoever..
so, what you know is actually what the MEDIA has indoctrinate into your mind.. so you to you its a nonsencial dogma.. but u fail to reason.. and investigate the religion..
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"your dogma is that religion is based on belief .. not proof"
Erm... My dogma? I dont subscribe to dogma. If Id subscribe to an approach in assessing this world, our existence, ect., it surely be to evidencialism. Your so called religious proofs were shown to be either invalid or irrelevant.
"proof"
Its common knowledge, buddy. Islamic dogmatic studies (of belief) are called "aqidah."
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@Wrath0fKhan its not common knowledge, speak for youself..
1+1=2, thats common knowledge.. for people who has knowledge.
you dont subscribe to dogma? why then you say things without proof? u just believe what the media told you.. or thru islamphobia websites..
read the quran.. then you will know, InsyaAllah.
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL
"why then you say things without proof"
What proof? Do you even know what "proof" is about?
"media told you"
Like what? Concerning Islam I believe what Ive learned from diverse traditional Islamic sources (like the Translations of the Meanings, Tafsir, Sahih Hadith, Sirat, history books, etc.)
"islamophobia websites"
Quran and Sahih Hadith are the best "Islamophobic websites" themselves. The recorded actions of Muslim states are the best "Islamophobic websites" themselves.
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"read the quran .. then you will know"
Ive already told you. Ive been studying Islam for years. And indeed! I do know. The "gesamt picture" is really a nasty one.
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@Wrath0fKhan how can i believe you.. if you have no proof.. can u just say that in a court of law.. "Believe me judge.. he stole my bike.. so get him".
i said read the quran.. have u found any errors in it?
nasty one? that easy? u have not provide me with proof.. and suddenly it a NASTY ONE.
give me just one proof.. not two, three or more.. just one.. The BEST one you can get.
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"how can i believe you if you have no proof"
Its actually much worse than that. How can I believe you if you claim to have "proof," yet when examined your proof crumbles as invalid. This is exactly how we rule things out.
"have u found any errors in it"
Sure... Plenty of errors.
"one proof"
This here is "proof:" "Better Angels of Our Nature: How Violence Has Declined" - book by Professor Steven Pinker. Read it. Its something like a "field survey."
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"investigate the religion"
Ive been studying Islam for years. I may know more about it than you do.
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@Wrath0fKhan
how do you study islam.. by looking at muslims? thats not studing islam.. that is human science..
what is it that you know more than me about islam.. tell me.. i would like to know..
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"by looking at muslims"
Sure... By looking and analyzing their behavior in relation to recorded history and in relation to Islamic teachings. In what case these function well, in what they dont, searching for mechanisms, explanations, ect.
"thats not studying islam"
No... Thats only a part of the exercise.
"that is human science"
Islam is a subject of human science. "Its" written on paper, it entails commandments, promises, explanations , histories...
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@Wrath0fKhan so your understanding.. Islam is subjected to human? its not a revelation? its man made? is that what you think? thats why you say Islam is A SUBJECT of Human Science..
The Quran, includes human science, the behaviors, characters.. so that we may know.. and learn..
So, studying how muslim react.. is not necessarily Islamic..
plainly, i a muslim imbide alcholic drinks, is that Islam?
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"Islam is subjected to human"
It can be easily subjected to human investigation. Aint that rather obvious?
"its not a revelation"
Why should it be one? Because it says so? Thats the cheapest trick "out there."
"not necessarily Islamic"
Of course not necessarily. However, if Islam is something like a "recipe to be applied," we can eventually assess its efficiency.
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"plainly, i a muslim imbide alcoholic drinks, is that Islam"
Of course not... However, if Muslims believe homosexuals, adulterers, apostates should be put to death according to the "rules" of the Sunnah, is that (traditional) Islam? Indeed!
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@Wrath0fKhan your not getting my point.. you got it at first when you say "OF COURSE NOT".. suddenly u sway to muslims beliefs.. THE MUSLIMS can believe WHAT EVER THEY WANT.. there ARE SO CALLED MUSLIMS that THINK they are EQUAL TO GOD.. do you know that?
my point is.. look at the SOURCE.. but if u keep on coming to the muslim.. its pointless..
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"first when you say "of course not""
Ive never claimed otherwise.
"suddenly u sway to muslims beliefs"
You sound very confused here.
"the Muslims can believe whatever they want"
No... Since sincere "thought acts" of disbelief would disqualify them from being Muslims.
"equal to god"
Im "afraid" that kind of behavior/thinking constitutes shirk ar-rububiyyah, bringing someone beyond the pale of traditional Islam.
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@Wrath0fKhan
that is what i am trying to tell you.. "muslim can DRINK ALCOHOL" they can THINK LIKE PHARAOH.. or COMMIT ADULTERY..
The Quran says NO. but they can still do it if THEY WANT.. what part of CHOOSING for YOURSELF of HAVING YOUR OWN WILL. that U dont UNDERSTAND??
its not about SHIRK rububiyyah, not about hell or heavan, right or wrong.. what i am trying to tell you that. HUMAN have THEIR OWN WILL.. regardless what the QURAN SAYS.
because He Wills it thaty you CHOOSE!
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"human have their own will regardless what the Qruan says"
Ever heard of Al-Lauh-al-Mahfuz?
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@Wrath0fKhan yup.. i heard about it.. my thought was.. EVERYTHING has been destined so.. what ever i do.. i will endup like what has been written in Lauh Mahfuz...
actually.. you are right.. but the question is.. who knows what is written other than The GOD.. ?? you? have you any knowledge of it? you professor? or maybe the angels??
that knowledge belongs to Allah alone.
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"everything has been destined so"
So your "free will" was "destined," too, and hence in realty is not "free will" at all. Thats because it has to follow predestined (already prerecorded) paths.
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@Wrath0fKhan now your trying to be like GOD.. ALL KNOWING.. how can u say its not free will or it is PREDESTINED if you DO NOT KNOW what will happen to you??
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"trying to be like god"
No... You are trying to equivocate. You are on the run.
"all knowing"
What? We dont need to know all to demonstrate whether the tablets are significant or just a fantasy of yours. We dont need to look "everywhere" to rule out a god that is supposedly omnipresent. And you still dont get it.
Wrath0fKhan 6 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan hmm.. running in your dreams.. may be.. :-)
kiLuL76 6 days ago
@kiLuL76
"in your dreams"
Luckily Im not dreaming about you at all... Maybe I would if you started delivering some relevant demonstrations. LOL
Wrath0fKhan 6 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan when you said "you are on the run".. thats DREAMING... i am on the run in your mind.. in reality it does not happened.
kiLuL76 5 days ago
@kiLuL76
"in reality it does not happened"
What? Of course it happened. Its happening with every single response of yours. Its not about physically running anywhere. Its about equivocating and providing more and more irrelevant distractions in this little exchange we are having.
Wrath0fKhan 5 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan well.. you can have me anyway u like.. in your dreams..
dream on..
kiLuL76 4 days ago
@kiLuL76
"if you dont know what will happen to you"
Because according to your fantasy, its Allah who knows, making my and your choices only an illusion, since these are part of everything and since everything was already pre-recorded in the tablets.
And since everything includes the entirety of all things (creation, movement of atoms, ect.), i dont need to know it all (i.e. in detail) to derive this logically valid conclusion.
Wrath0fKhan 6 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan pre-recorded in the tablets?? who told you that?? GOD??
THIS is what happened when you want to be LIKE GOD..
as if you know what HE KNOWS.
What GOD knows is HIS.. what you know is yours.. what you dont know.. its NOT YOURS..
so if you dont know what will happen to you.. HOW CAN U SAY ITS PREDISTINED? are you not WISE?
kiLuL76 6 days ago
@kiLuL76
"as if you know what he knows"
Again... Provide evidence that there actually is a "he" in the first place. More so, Ive already explained to you that knowing everything includes "existence" in its entirety. I dont need to know exactly what "existence" includes to understand that the implications of knowing all of existence.
Wrath0fKhan 6 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan again... we were discussing about pre-destination.. not His EXISTENCE.. thats what i mean by '' you are not listening "
still dont get it??
ok nevermind.. lets move on (predestination - u win). Now, what kind of evidence do you want? do you want to see GOD.. is that what you mean? physically see GOD, then you believe? give me what evidence do you want.. just type of EVIDENCE that YOU REQUIRE.. i will try my best to provide you with it.
kiLuL76 5 days ago
@kiLuL76
"we are discussing about pre-destination, not about his existence"
Quantum physics has ruled out predestination in the classical sense of meaning. That is, thermodynamics does apply (i.e. the "running down" of the universe on average), however, the fine-structure of this process is unpredictable and can only be accounted for after "measurement." This was experimentally proved over and over again with ever greater precision. It follows, that "measuring" equals "knowing."
Wrath0fKhan 5 days ago
@kiLuL
"what kind of evidence do you want? do you want to see god"
In one way or the other, "I" want to "measure" (even if indirectly) those actions of "his" which are "measurable." This is the only way how to prove "his" existence. If you cant provide this, you have no "justification" to claim with certainty a or the "god" would exist.
"evidence that you require"
Ive already alluded to plenty of "requirements" repeatedly. Could your god sustain you if you were confined under water?
Wrath0fKhan 5 days ago
@kiLuL76
"how can you say it is predestined"
Because the Quran says so! I dont need to know the result if it was already pre-recorded. "It" will just play out in "due time."
Still dont get it?
Wrath0fKhan 6 days ago
@kiLuL76
"who knows what is written other than the god"
Exactly! And since your god can do "anything," he can easily tell you whats written there and we can test that particular claim (e.g. what particles will pop up out of vacuum, where, at what time - exactly). This has no bearing on my previous claims. None whatsoever.
"that knowledge belongs to Allah alone"
In your fantasy, it surely does. However, you cant demonstrate the truth value of that claim. Still dont get it?
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"look at the source"
Exactly! Here we return back to the "perfect recipe" once again. That doesnt make sense whatsoever. Why? Because a "truly perfect" recipe cant fail. Thats why its called perfect in every aspect. The "Islamic source" does not fit into this category.
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@Wrath0fKhan if God wills that human must obey His Commands.. He dont have to send His Messenger, and scriptures.. as your so called RECEIPE.. If He wills it, we just say.. BE and IT IS..
but reffering to YOUR definition of PERFECTION, if you are given the power to create something.. you cant create something perfect..
What GOD will (from my understanding) is that we HUMAN, must CHOOSE.. that is His WILL..
and Human is actually perfect for he/she can choose on its OWN WILL..
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"human must choose"
See my previous response.
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@Wrath0fKhan again, have u seen whats written in it? about me? or yourself?
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"have u seen"
Have you?!?! (Thats the real point here.)
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago
@Wrath0fKhan hmmm.. u claimed that u know whats in LUH AL MAHFUZ.. i asked you what did you see? have u seen it?
then u asked me have i seen it??? im not the one who claimed that i know from Luh al Mahfuz.. you did.
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"u claimed that u know whats in the preserved tablets"
Erm... Sure... At least in part I do. So do you. Since EVERYTHING is written there and we are part of everything, it follows that at least in part (even if only subjectively) we do know whats written there. Simple and irrefutable logic. The real deal however is to demonstrate the significance of those tablets. You need to show something what is or will become eventually true, yet currently is unknown. Go ahead.
Wrath0fKhan 6 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan no i did not.. i said it is to Him who has the Knowledge.. He has the Luh Al MAHFUZ.. so He KNOWS what is going to happen.. to Him, its PREDESTINED..
not me..
but you.. u claimed it is predestined.. FOR YOU.. so you must know what is going to happen.. similarly.. you are claiming.. that u are like GOD.. all knowing..
kiLuL76 6 days ago
@kiLuL76
"to him its predestined not me"
So it is predestined... Hence you have no real choice, since the record only plays out according to the book. Every single atom, every single electron, every single proton, every single cell of your brain... Guess what, you have no control over all of this. None whatsoever. Allah does (according to Islamic fantasy).
Wrath0fKhan 6 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan i have real choice.. for i know not what will happen to me.. if i know whats in the BOOK.. then, i wouldnt have a choice..
again.. understanding the concept of PREDESTINATION is very crucial..
if YOU do not know what is going to HAPPEN.. on WHAT BASED do you say it is predestined?
ur to busy trying to be GOD..
kiLuL76 5 days ago
@kiLuL76
"for i know not what will happen to me"
It does not follow your choice is therefore real, because it already "was" pre-recorded. And you still dont get it, right? Concerning choices; even neuro-science proves at least on some level that there is a type of choices which are entirely prepared unconsciously and people start consciously experiencing them after the fact only.
"on what based do you say it is predestined"
On the basis of "EVERYTHING was recorded there."
Wrath0fKhan 5 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan sadly.. u dont know whats recorded.. and say its predestined..
kiLuL76 3 days ago
@kiLuL76
"u dont know whats recorded and say its predestined"
Sure because (as the text said) EVERYTHING "was" recorded BEFOREHAND. I dont need to know a single thing except that it indeed "was" everything. Still dont get it? lol
Wrath0fKhan 3 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@kiLuL76
"u dont know whats recorded and say its predestined"
Sure because (as the text said) EVERYTHING "was" recorded BEFOREHAND. I dont need to know a single thing except that it indeed "was" everything. Still dont get it? lol
Wrath0fKhan 3 days ago
@kiLuL76
"ur to busy trying to be god"
You are way too busy trying to equivocate instead of providing evidence supporting your position.
Wrath0fKhan 5 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan what evidence do u require? i'll try my best to provide u with it..
kiLuL76 3 days ago
@kiLuL76
"what evidence do u require"
Hahaha... So many of your buddies (in Islam) have failed and you think you can do better? All I need is a single fruit fly out of nothing on my table. Verily, its easy for Allah!
Dont you see? And this way; this way no one will get harmed in the process either. Am I not more merciful than your Allah?
Wrath0fKhan 3 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan heheh.. is that what you really need?? a single fruit fly out of nothing on your table? then you believe there is GOD?
kiLuL76 2 days ago
@kiLuL76
"that what you really need"
Yip.
"then you believe there is god"
Do we have a deal or not... Verily nothing is impossible for Allah! lol
Wrath0fKhan 2 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan you? being more merciful than ALLAH?? By Allah.. you have transgress the bounds..
you are not being merciful even to yourself.. n have the nerve to compare yourself to The Creator..
kiLuL76 2 days ago
@kiLuL76
"you have transgress the bounds"
Actually, its you who did that. You denied Allahs omniscience repeatedly.
"your are not being merciful even to yourself"
What a preposterous and unsubstantiated claim.
"compare yourself to the creator"
Still no "proof." Yet again, we compare things regularly. Consciously and unconsciously all the time. If we didnt, we would end up pretty fast destroyed by biological competition, blind natural farces, etc. ;-)
Wrath0fKhan 2 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan Well.. if a single fruit fly just popped out on your table can make you believe there is GOD, u maybe wrong..
Jesus, he raised the DEAD with the Will of ALLAH.. cure the BORN BLIND and LEPERS.. they still dont believe it..
i think, (i dont know), if a single fruit fly popped out infront of you.. this is what you would say.. "ITS A MERE MAGIC"..
Seeing they see not.. hearing they hear not.. they refuse to think..
kiLuL76 2 days ago
@kiLuL76
"Jesus he raised the dead with the will of allah"
Nope...
"Its a mere magic"
Sure... Allah is all about magic. Magical, irreducibly mental entity, acting by sheer sheer will... And? Still nothing...
Wrath0fKhan 2 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan i have no control??? well.. i can say what ever i want.. in this video comentary, i can control what i say in my comments.. ITS ALL ME.. but i also know that HE KNOWS what I will DO..
i have control over my choices.. but in stopping the time, controlling weather, lightning, that i have no control.. so im not responsible..
but my own choice.. that i have to be responsible..
kiLuL76 5 days ago
@kiLuL76
"he knows what i will do"
So if "he" knows, if everything you will do was already pre-recorded, you had no real choice. Every atom in your brain, every electrochemical reaction responsible for your behavior "was" already accounted for. What you experience as "control" is nothing more but an illusion.
"my own choice ... to be responsible"
Yet under the "rules of the preserved tablets" even that was already recorded beforehand. Making us all just puppets in a pathetic play.
Wrath0fKhan 5 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan pathetic play?.. hmm.. u cant even create a fly.. but have the nerve to say its all just a pathetic play..
He created the universe, the sun, stars.. galaxies.. everything.. so that u are amazed by it.. and submits your will to Him..
instead, you assume you know like what He knows. saying its prerecorded in preserved tablets which u know nothing of and arrogantly says its pathetic..
didnt even create a single thing in your life, but wanted to be like the CREATOR..
kiLuL76 3 days ago
@kiLuL76
"He created the universe, the sun, starts, galaxies, everything"
Everything?!?! And "he" cant create even a single fruit fly on my table out of nothing? That you call everything? Thats really weak. And wheres the evidence for all your claims? Dont tell me its in the Quran... And if you do, wheres the evidence supporting the claims in the Quran? Deont tell me its around ourselves. Why? Because we didnt see/cant account for anything created by Allah. Anything at all.
Wrath0fKhan 3 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan thats what i mean by seeing they see not..
IF THE SUN HE CREATED, THE GALAXIES, THE STARS.. could not convince you.. then how would you see a single fruit fly.. compare the EVIDENCE..
If, he Wills it, He can create a fly infront of you.. but what is the use of your brain He has given to you? just to feel pleasure all the time? to have it all on your way? to instruct GOD what to do??
The Brain, the sight, hearing, mind, soul.. all of the senses.. what is it for?
kiLuL76 2 days ago
@kiLuL76
"thats what i mean by seeing they see not"
Thats what we mean when saying that you guys are evidently suffering from some delusional disorder.
"if the sun he created"
Where you there? No. Can you provide some evidence in support of your claim? No. So why should I believe what you are saying?
"if he wills it"
There is no other way than by revealing what is least likely. Thats because what is most likely, usual, ect. cannot serve as evidence in support of your claim.
Wrath0fKhan 2 days ago
@kiLuL76
"the brain, the sight, hearing, mind, soul all of the senses what is it for"
Dont know about soul... The brain is an organ, it produces mind, serves as a managing center for the senses and so on. It helps more biologically complex/evolved animals to cope better with the surrounding world and hence increases their survivability.
Wrath0fKhan 2 days ago
@kiLuL76
"instead you assume you know."
Sure... Because that one is CERTAIN. Its certain because it says so in the Quran. Right? And it says "he" created everything. Every single atom. Which as well implies he created chaos theory, too. And that one implies, that you have no real choice because its chaos that rules subatomic particles, and because of that, everything else depends on it and cant be predicted with certainty. Yet this would negate the already claimed everything. lo
Wrath0fKhan 3 days ago
@kiLuL76
"didnt even create a single thing in your life"
Does it really matter? I didnt claim I did. You claim your buddy Allah did. You still keep failing to provide relevant evidence in support of that claim.
"but wanted to be like the creator"
Again... These straw man propositions are of no help to you. None whatsoever. Prove the creator-claim. Provide evidence. Apply Hadith Qudsi 35 and let Allah make a fruit fly out of nothing on my table.
Wrath0fKhan 3 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan hmm.. okay.. i have tried my best to convey the message, that There Is NO GOD except ALLAH, and Muhammad is His Messenger..
Its your choice.. since you do not know what you are going to do.. you have to choose.. to investigate the Quran.. or just believe..
kiLuL76 2 days ago
@kiLuL76
"i have tried to convey the message"
You have failed.
"its your choice"
My choices are based on evidence and certain logical structures, too.
"investigate the Quran"
LOL you failed miserably, buddy.
"or just believe"
Faith is the least of virtues.
Wrath0fKhan 2 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan Hearing you hear not..
kiLuL76 2 days ago
@kiLuL76
"Hearing you hear not"
Well... As it looks like, you adamantly keep refusing to bring anything useful to the table. Instead you once again deliver one of your meaningless sayings. Congratulations.
Wrath0fKhan 2 days ago
@Wrath0fKhan i did bring something useful to the table.. but u insist on a fruit fly.. now how to deal with that kind of a person.. and does not want to listen..
thats why its meaningless to you..
kiLuL76 1 day ago
@kiLuL76
"I did bring something useful to the table"
Nope...
"but u insist on a fruit fly"
Yet thats easy for Allah! lol
"now how to deal with that kind of a person"
Well... Thats easy, isnt it. Ask Allah to provide the fruit fly. You just need to be a sincere Muslim in your prayer. Maybe you are just a fake and thats what you are afraid of. :-)
"and does not want to listen"
Listen to what? Your misconceptions about reality? Demonstrate your claims. Something you failed to do yet.
Wrath0fKhan 1 day ago
@Wrath0fKhan why do i say that?
you see perfection only in beauty.. u see perfection one sided only..
but not as a whole.. and the function of a creation..
that definition only true in HEAVEN my fren.. and HELL..
here on EARTH and the in UNIVERSE.. ALL of the creation are PERFECT.
kiLuL76 1 week ago
@kiLuL76
"function of a creation"
No idea what you are mumbling about.
"creation are perfect"
Demonstrate creation in the first place. Secondly, a "perfect recipe" should at least guarantee success most of the time. Islam is the opposite, it guarantees failure most of the time. That is because most people according to Islam will end up in "hell." And if thats what you consider "perfect," you (or your Allah) has to be an evil entity. Simple as that. ;-)
Wrath0fKhan 1 week ago