Cassius Clay vs Doug Jones - March 13, 1963 - Round 1 - 4

[ukboiz]

he beat liston the first time fair and square their was no dive in that fight everybody even liston though ali was only a loud mouth and would get beat thats why all the odds where against him but when liston realized in the fight he was out classed he quit by round 8 but the second fight was a dive no doubt about that

[chromeheart65]

did he really beat liston,really .7to 1 on to beat ali ,when was chavez ,duran ,leonard ,hagler ,robinson ever 7 to 1 on to lose,the mafia controlled liston and he took a dive twice,look at the odds ,the second one watch ali go mad cos he knows listons acting is terrible .if you hit someone with a knockout punch you dont tell him to get up,foreman was a beast but very robotic and limited,though fairplay to ali for the way he won that.

[ukboiz]

ali was not that overrated he did a lot of things people thought was impossible for him like defeating sonny liston and George forman he refused to serve in the army which was unheard of back then. the ali in this fight was still young that's why he had trouble but ali in 1966 at his peak would of had no trouble with doug jones

[chromeheart65]

ali soooooooooooo over rated,holmes so under rated ,hate holmes as a human being but he was a very good boxer and would have given ali a real fight at their peaks,trouble was holmes had a charisma by pass so is not remembered,history doesnt always tell the real story

[jason60152]

@chromeheart65 Mike Tyson is better then Larry Holmes.Even 2 Pac said it.

[disgrapefruit2bitter]

Thanks for the upload. Jones was on his game this night. Perfectly applied orthodox style can make up for a gap in athleticism. Excellent match to learn from.

[Photorayyy]

As a kid I heard this fight on the radio. Based on the radio call of the fight, it seemed too close to call to me. So great to actually see it.

[oldmule10]

didn t doug jones knock clay down in this fight?

[johnwtanneriv]

@QRF11B 3) Those two fights he won right before facing Ali were impressive. A perenial hw contender and a future great lhw champ. Doug Jones was a good fighter, whether you care to believe me or not.

4) Finally, if you wont listen to me on Foreman-Tyson, maybe you will listen to others that tend to know more than me:

rankings from

Ring Mag: Tyson 72 Foreman 25

ESPN: Tyson 50 Foreman 20

SI: (hw's only) Foreman 7 Tyson unranked

[johnwtanneriv]

@QRF11B A couple of notes for you since you are apparently illiterate.

1) Would you classify his fights with Tommy Morrison and Michael Moorer competitive? Both of those guys were top contenders in tyson's era.

2) I NEVER said ali beat frazier by ko. (tko in the 3rd fight though) I said he beat Zora Folley by ko in 7. YOU CLAIMED HE WON A CLOSE DECISION AGAINST FOLLEY IN THAT FIGHT. Come on, can't you just admit you are a little out of your element? You blatantly got facts wrong.

[johnwtanneriv]

@QRF11B Liston threw the second fight, not the first fight...and Foreman, Liston, and possibly even Chuvalo are everybit as good as just about anyone tyson beat on his run to a championship. Look, Foreman was highly competitive in Tyson's division when he was wayyyy past his prime. Doesn't this prove that a prime Foreman rips through that div?

If a prime Foreman does, don't prime frazier and ali possibly do the same?

Doesn't this prove who the better generation of hw boxers was?

[johnwtanneriv]

@QRF11B all the judges are crooked. I would love to have a reasonable debate but when you say things like "It doesn't matter if he was winning on all 3 scorecards, he was def losing," "judges are so crooked," "Many people think Ali lost two fights, one where he almost ended it in the 2nd & another where Frazier's corner threw in the towel." And then just blatantly get results of his fights wrong i.e. stating ali "eeked out a decision" in a fight he won by 7th round ko.

You can't be reasoned w/

[johnwtanneriv]

@QRF11B 1) By headhunter, I mean looking for one punch ko's.

2) Clay won this fight, and Doug Jones had just come off two wins against Bob Foster and Zora Folley...he was significantly better than Douglas.

3) You are the first person I met who thinks Ali lost the thrilla in manilla in which frazier's corner threw in the towel o.o

4) So far, you have been blantantly wrong about the Ali/Folley fight and somewhat wrong about his fights with Foreman and Cooper and Frazier.  And now you say

[johnwtanneriv]

One last note, Ali was 11-0 against heavier opponents before turning 36 and was winning on all 3 scorecards in the Foreman fight.

[johnwtanneriv]

@QRF11B on dominated a down period in Heavyweight history and when he came back to reclaim his throne Holyfield beat him up. His lost to Buster Douglas also sways HEAVILY against him. Marciano also dominated a down period in history. While I rate Marciano higher than Tyson, it's hard to ignore the ages of all his big-name competitors. Ali was the best of two decades...one of those being the most stacked in the history of the division. If we are basing this on SOS, so to speak, its a NC

[johnwtanneriv]

@QRF11B oreman lost of exhaustion. Ali's defensive strategy was to let Foreman punch himself out. Called the rope-a-dope. Most people consider it a brilliant display of defensive tactics, you seem to be using it as a vote against Ali. For the record, there is a reason Ali's era is considered to be the "golden era" of heavyweights. Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Liston would have all destroyed the heavyweights of the 80's and 90's (with the possible exceptions of holmes and lewis) The facts are Tys

[johnwtanneriv]

@QRF11B Lewis never got destroyed. He was winning both fights when he got knocked out, and came back to avenge those fights. Ruddock didn't. Comparing Ruddock to Lewis is just silly. Outboxed? No sir. Ali outlanded Jones consistently. Jones was stronger than this Ali, and hit harder, but his skill set and speed were still not up to par. Hence Ali by UD. Ali won 3 out of 5 rounds against cooper before it was stopped on cuts, prime ali fought cooper again and ko'd him in 6. Of course F

[johnwtanneriv]

@QRF11B PS (this was actually his last even sort of close decision before he was stripped of his title)

[johnwtanneriv]

@QRF11B 3) Tyson had started head-hunting by 25...which is a recipe for disaster against Ali. Ruddock never beat a top heavyweight, in fact a year after a fairly close fight that went the distance with Tyson, Ruddock was DESTROYED by Lennox Lewis. If you are staking Ruddock as a very good win, your comp is weak.

Ali didn't eek out a decision, he knocked out folley in 7. the two fights before that, he won basically every round against ernie terrell and ko'd cleveland williams in 3

[johnwtanneriv]

@QRF11B 1) Louis may very well have beaten Ali, I don't know, but I can see that fight either way. Louis wouldn't have been able to cut off the ring from Ali and all his stalking would have made him an easy targer for the much more mobile Ali. That said, if Louis ever did corner Ali, or if Ali got brash enough to exchange with Louis...it absolutely could have been a short night.

2) I see NO way Marciano beats a prime Ali. His only chance would be via ko and good luck against that chin.

[johnwtanneriv]

@QRF11B Tyson at this age was definitely better than Ali at this age, but compare them both right before they went to prison or at any point after they got out...tyson peaked by this age, ali was a few years away. at any point when they are say 23 or older ali wins easily. Ali would have had a 14 inch reach advantage against marciano and outweighed him significantly while still being quicker...so nah. prime Ali vs prime Joe louis? Maybe Louis, maybe Ali...would be an amazing fight

[carlitoboxing]

doug jones moves a bit like Earnie Shavers

[truthhitmanisback]

No way was Muhammad Ali over rated. Doug Jones was a good fighter when Ali was an up and coming fighter. Just because Ali didn't knock Jones out doesn't mean he was over rated. This was Ali when he was developing as a fighter. Compare this to the Ali of 1966 ! Big difference.  Ali is the greatest so he CAN'T be over rated, that's what the title ' the greatest' means.

[TommyGun7111]

he had a bit of trouble with the "bum".

shows Ali was a little overrated sometimes

[primeboxers]

@TommyGun7111 yes, just like all other greats he had trouble with some 'bum' before he reached his very best.

Joe Frazier had trouble with Oscar Bonavena, and Ali with Doug Jones. Good thing they both won, if not they wouldn't have been the first undefeated boxers to fight for the title. 

[TommyGun7111]

@primeboxers

yea but don't you think Ali is overrated? Jones really gave him a lot of trouble

[primeboxers]

@TommyGun7111 Yes, I think he is overrated. But I believe that all the great once are overrated in some degree, they all met their match in someone and only the Rock could retire undefeated.

[jason60152]

@primeboxers If Rock fought in Ali's era he would have had a loss in his record.

[masterblaster102]

@TommyGun7111: Ali is overrated? you obviously know nothing about boxing. How many heavyweights have u seen that could throw multiple combinations moving in all directions? he may not have been completely sound technically but this man dominated his division for over 2 decades including the 70s which most analysts believe had the best collection heavyweight talent plus in 70s he had lost his footspeed.

[TommyGun7111]

@primeboxers

I love Ali as much as anybody... But the dude was overrated. In my opinion there are just some match ups that are just no good for him. Guys like Ali would always have trouble with norton, frazier, and Tyson, even in his "unbeatable" peak in 64-66.... Hell, a guy like Chuvalo and Marciano would give him trouble, just based on workrate and heart.. Those guys would never give up..

Just my two cents tho.

Good video.

[masterblaster102]

@TommyGun7111: you have no idea what you're talking about. Marciano (and I give him his due) fought guys who were mostly in their late 30s and 40s so it wasn't so difficult to outwork them. Against a young prime Ali, Marciano would have been flattened cos not only did have a massive size and reach disavantage but also an even bigger one in speed and punch output. I see Marciano having only puncher's chance at very best (slim cos Ali had a great chin) but I think he gets stopped on cuts

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 dont forget though..Marciano and Ali sparred and were just playing around and Ali said his arms and body were sore the next day..he had welts all up and down his upper torso and that was Rocky Marciano as an old man. Ali said Marciaon was better than Joe Frazier!

[masterblaster102]

@ah93704: Frazier did not fight the prime Ali (he'd lost his legs by then). Everybody beats Ali in sparring (he tends to use them to test his defence)...b4 the Foreman fight a lot of reporters wrote Ali off when they saw him getting trounced (apparently) by his sparring partners. Marciano (a great fighter) was getting knocked down by 40 yr olds...these guys wouldn't land a punch on a 26 yr old Ali.This Ali would just too big, too fast and with too much volume for Marciano

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 if he lost his legs, then why? he was only 28 when he returned and 29 when he fought Frazier. I thought Ali fougth the best fight of his life against Joe Frazier. He had great snap on his punches and he took a better punch than he did before. Ali was not unbeatable even before his exile. He got hit a lot. A lot of people thought Doug Jones defeated him. George Chuvalo had him pissing blood for days after their fight and he was dropped by Henry Cooper and nearly knocked out.!

[masterblaster102]

@ah93704: Perhaps you didn't notice he was off for 3 years. If you knew anything about boxing you would know that amount time in the cooler does tend to take something from a fighter. Just looking @ the fight and it's obvious he wasn't like he used to. You're obviously a hater so I know you'll skip over clear facts to see what you want. Ali let Chuvalo pound his body as part of his mind games...Cooper was a good fighter as well as being of similar size as Ali (unlike Marciano)

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 how on earth do you know when Ali was "prime"? That is a stupid comment to make anyway because sometimes a fighter loses a big fight (and people say he was not in his prime) and then he comes back and wins big the next time. You are just full of excuses for youe hero, Ali.

[masterblaster102]

@ah93704: Ali's footspeed and movement had clearly declined after the 3 yr layoff and this is well documented. Most fighters in those tended to peak in their mid 20s anyway. I don't see what all this has to do with our original debate which was about Ali and Marciano. Being a hater I guess your motive was discrediting Ali rather engaging in a fact-based debate. Btw I never said Ali was unbeatable in his heyday of the 60s (noone is). I just said Marciano had no chance against him then

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 well, you're wrong cause Marciaon would have stood a good chance of defeating Ali!

[masterblaster102]

@ah93704: Marciano would have found himself chasing shadows (just too slow to catch up with a 25yr old Ali), unable to land any significant punches whilst getting swamped with jabs and multiple combinations from all angles. Marciano would have been stopped on cuts (to which he was very prone)

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 Thats what they said when Rocky fought Walcott, Charles, and Archie. Marciano was quicker than you think dude. He was able to keep up with light heavyweights and I dont think he'd have much trouble cornering Ali like Chuvalo, Frazier, Jones, and even Foreman were able to do. Marciano never stopped punching. Ali himself said Marciaon was better than Frazier in many ways. Marciano always gets knocked for cutting but YOU CAN'T SHOW ME A SINGLE FIGHT HE LOST AS A RESULT OF CUTS.

[masterblaster102]

@ah93704: Those guys were in their late 30s and 40s man!!!...look @ punches those guys were landing Marciano, those guys would never touch Ali...I'll give Rocky his credit he was tough but he won those fights on better conditioning (not on skill) primarily from being the younger guy. He was having problems landing any punches on Walcott in the 1st fight until Walcott ran out of gas (cos he was in his 40s). I'm saying Ali was bigger younger, much faster and with a better chin. Easy fight 4 Ali

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 One thing you cannot deny is that if they fought to the death (which I wouldnt watch nor would I endorse) there is no doubt Marciano would win. Ali couldnt hurt Marciano. Sure he could cut him but I doubt he would ever hurt Rocky (he couldnt hurt Norton) Anyway, my point is this, Ali couldnt really beat Marciano but he might make Marciano run out of time. Eventually, guys like Marciano catch guys like Ali and beat them senseless!

[masterblaster102]

@ah93704: fight to the death?! are we still talking boxing? I think you have non-boxing issues with Ali that only you can resolve. I'm only interested in boxing

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 no issues..I'm just stating that Ali could never knock Rocky out. The only way he'd win would be if Marciano ran out of time!

[masterblaster102]

@ah93704: Nonsense! Marciano's face would be a bloody mess by the 7th round and ref would have to stop fight by the ninth (similar to what happened to Cooper). Marciano simply would not be able to cope with Ali's combination of blinding hand and footspeed plus stamina...particularly I believe Ali's volume punching would be his ruin. Marciano (though great fighter) is just too slow, too small with too short a reach (plus too limited a fighter) to able to handle the 25 yr old Ali.

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 thats why Ali was bruised all up and down his torso from just sparring, right? You dont know shit about boxing. Swarmers give problems to classic boxers like ali. Marciano is Alis worse nightmare.

[masterblaster102]

@ah93704:.Sparring is no indicator, besides Ali could have said that as a show of respect to Marciano. In boxing speed kills....The speed gap between Marciano and Ali (with hands and feet) is too much and when u consider Ali was a guy who was hard to hit at his peak(unlike walcott, charles etc) cos he had great reflexes and was always moving. That would been a very bad fight for Marciano... Marciano had 67 inch reach facing a guy with 80 inch reach who was also much faster

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 Ali was always pretty easy to hit. Dont you know anything about boxing?

[masterblaster102]

@ah93704: Ali was easy to hit? now i know you're a hater. Everybody knows Ali was very elusive... it was one of his strongest attributes as a fighter. No boxing expert in his right would ever rate Marciano over Ali and that is no disrespect to Marciano but Ali was just that special

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 he was easy to hit for his style. A guy with his size and reach and physical strength should NEVER GET hit or rarely get hit. Look at Jack Johnson. If Ali had a defense like him, he would have been unbeatable. Ali didnt have the defensive skills of Johnson or of Larry Holmes. Ali had average boxing skills. He was quick but he made a lot of fundamental mistaks (pulling back etc)

[masterblaster102]

@ah93704: Ali was undefeated until the layoff with almost all his fights ending with him suffering no damage whatsoever . Who do you know that NEVER gets hit? marciano? Holmes? lol...he was easy to hit for his style? You need learn a bit more about the sport

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 George Chuvalo beat him so bad to the body that Ali was pissing blood and had to go to the hospital. This was before the exile too. Also, Doug Jones was very close to beating him as many ring side observers thought Jones gave Clay a boxing lesson. Lets see, who else can I educate you on? Ali was also flooored by Henry Cooper. It may have been a knockout had he not been saved by the bell but the bell did ring and he recovered. He was also knocked down in a few other fights.

[masterblaster102]

@ah93704: Charles had Marciano's face almost touching the floor...in fact the ref was considering stopping the fight. Ali let Chuvalo hit him to the body. "Ali was floored Cooper" lol...Marciano was getting floored consistently by old men. Marciano was not in Ali's class

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 LOL..you are too funny. Thats why Rocky Marciano was undefeated and Ali had 5 losses, right? Not only that, but Rocky has the highest ko ratio in history.

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 you're exagggerating it dude. Read the book by Sullivan about Rockys career. He exposes the fallacy that they almost stopped the fight. Rocky had a bad cut, for sure, but they werent even close to stopping it. It wasnt affecting Rockys vision, though I"m suer if it happened today they would have stopped it. Those were different times and it is a myth that they were on the verge of stopping it!

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 When Ali fought Frazier he was 29 years old. He was still in his prime years and I think the few years off gave him a few extra years. Had he not taken those years off we would never have seen him get owned by Norton or rocked by Shavers. Ali was good but was not the greatest. I have it 1) Joe Louis 2) Larry Holmes 3) Ali....Ali was not as good as Louis nor Holmes!

[masterblaster102]

@ah93704: Ali had clearly lost his legs and did not use the ring as he did before his layoff. Joe Louis was a great fighter but in terms of who had the most weapons and who fought the better competition?...Ali takes it IMO. Holmes? lol...who did he beat? Spinks who had something like the style of the young Ali trounced him

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 Larry Holmes made 20 defense of his title and you are asking me who he fought? Are you that lazy? Go look at his record and lookk up some of the guys he fought. He fought the best of that era just like the other greats did. You just dont know about the guys Holmes had to deal with!

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 its not the age of the opponent..sometimes a guy is old but he fights really well and other times you got a young guy who doesnt do anything. Its not about the age, you gotta look at the fighters perfromance!

[masterblaster102]

@ah93704: of course age matters you idiot particularly in 50s when athletic science wasn't nearly has good as what it is today. IMO Marciano won most of his fights on being the younger guy

[ah93704]

@masterblaster102 I dont think you give Walcott, Charles and Archie their due credit. They defeated a lot of good tough heavyweights to get their title shots. You had guys like Nino Valdez, Bob Baker, and Satterfield. Those guys were tough as nails fighters and were soundly defeated by the guys you say were too old. That is just stupid. You need to go back and read and study some of those guys. They did things that fighters today wouldnt even dream of. They were true masters of the game!

[marcxopoco]

@primeboxers is clueless.

Jim Jeffries was undefeated when he won the heavyweight title.

[footyfan05]

@TommyGun7111 ali was 21 years old u fool the guy he fought was bum tommy gunn caught aids

[rajounmwangi]

@TommyGun7111 HE BEAT GEORGE AS A OLD MAN WAS HE "OVERRATED" THEN?

[frank47hammer]

Doug "Jones is nothing but a bum." lol

[combatesdeboxeo]

@frank47hammer lol

[loyaldude10]

@frank47hammer -that was just ali's way of talking trash. He obviously trained hard for the "bum"