Greg Koukl - Define a morally free creature

[etherform66]

@Verticordious is a king innoscent of murder if he issues an edict for someone else to murder on his behalf and ensures that it is done? When you say "God chooses not to sin", what do you mean? He has issued edicts for the destruction of entire races - he has issued edicts for the stoning to death of wayward children. How is he innoscent of wrongdoing when he severly punished david for the murder of an innoscent man who murdered by proxy - just like God?

[etherform66]

God introduced evil to humanity when He 'planted the tree of good and evil" and then created the Devil. yes, He created the Devil - Read Gen3 - "now the serpent was the craftyest of all the creatures that the Lord God * had made* " He created evil (tree) and the medium by which He would infect humanity (devil) and ensured that the man and woman would be lustfully imperfect enough to swallow it! GOD IS THE CREATOR OF GOOD AND EVIL. He said "the man will become *like us* knowing good and evil"

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 Yeah... so God after putting the tree in the garden said "Go eat that I will punish you for it." No... Who's to say for what reason God placed the tree in the garden (maybe for us to eventually eat of it, just not then), but for whatever reason He allowed for us to fall; do you know if that reason be good or bad? By no means! So if your mother or father tell you not to shove your finger in the electrical socket, but allow opportunity for you to learn not to, are they wrong?

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 men were always fallen - the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil" simply gave them knowledge of the condition that had always existed. IT was not the cause of their sin, it was the revealer of their sin. Paul said "i wold not have know sin but for the law"

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 Way to take a passage out of context. When Paul refers to the law he's referring to the law given by Moses on mount Sinai not the edicts of the garden of Eden.

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 ha ha yeah i know that.. the point im making is that it was the command, the 'law of God' in that instance that provoked the same response in adam and eve as it did in the israelites.. dont be so precious.. Actually, there are 7 laws revealed to us (1) the Law of God ,(2) the Law of Christ ,(3) the Law of the Spirit, (4) the Law of Faith, (5) the Law of Liberty, (6) the Law of Righteousness and (7) the Law of Life .. wonderful stuff ey?

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 Romans 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness."

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 Romans 7:12 "So he law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure."

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 whats your point?

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 My point is the same law given at Sinai is given to man when his nature is corrupted by the fall. You can't say that sin took it's opportunity in the garden because man had not yet sinned by disobeying God. The law does not cause one to act sinfully.

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 mans nature was always corrupted bro. God made adam and eve out of dust and corruption. Rom 8:20 "for the creation was SUBJECTED to futility , NOT OF ITS OWN WILL, but of Him who subjected it in hope" sin took its opportunity in the garden when inwardly eve lusted for that which was forbidden - sin begins in the heart and then manifests in actions - the manifestation of sin was a reality before the physical act and subsequent REVELATION OF IT occured. Gods laws REVEAL sin.

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 No edicts, nor commandants from God are the cause of any sin.

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 haha i know that - the commands of God are not the cause of sin - they are the REVEALER OF SIN. When adam and eve ate they suddenly realized "HEY!! WE ARE NAKED!!" were they naked before eating? YES.. did they realize it.. NO..... the commands of God (THOU SHALL NOT ) simply reveald what was there ALL ALONG... It not only revealed their nakedness in a physical sense but in a moral sense too!.

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 When adam and eve realized they were naked that does not mean their nakedness before their realizing was sinful. Yet the act of disobedience to God caused them shame, so as to cover their flesh; which had acted in disobedience.

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 you missed the point. Eating of the tree simply revealed what had always been. I wasnt implying that being naked was sinful - nakedness was simply a condition they were unaware of prior to eating of the tree - they became aware of their true state, morally and physically.

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 Nor was man's nature at all sinful before the fall otherwise they would have died then.

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 the wages of sin is death. adam and eve had no *knowledge* of sin prior to eating the forbidden fruit and were 'sinless' in the sense that they had no KNOWLEDGE of it. once they ate of the tree of the 'KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL', they came to KNOW their true state and death followed. To say that men would die prior to it being inwardly revealed in them is unscriptural. Make no mistake bro -Gen 3:6 demonstrates that Adam and Eve had lustful hearts BEFORE they ate forbidden fruit..

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 "-Gen 3:6 demonstrates that Adam and Eve had lustful hearts BEFORE they ate forbidden fruit."

Gen 3:6 Only demonstrates they had the ability to chose, not that that ability was in of it self sinful by it's own nature. When God creates and calls something good; then it is. Man by no means was created sinful or evil. You are blatantly contriving knowledge where there is none to be found.

As it is written "IN THE DAY you eat of that tree you will surely die." not before.

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 God created Satan and called it "good" and your fine with that but you refuse to concede he could created imperfect humans? God said "lets make man in our image & likeness" after they ate God said "NOW MAN HAS BECOME LIKE US - KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL" eating of the tree was an *essential prerequise* to becoming like God. God provided the tree, satan and a saviour from the foundation of the world and you still think Adam and Eve were never meant to sin - you cant be serious! ha ha ...

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 "God created Satan and called it "good"

God created Satan and called it "good" and your fine with that but you refuse to concede he could created imperfect humans?

God did not create Satan as Satan. Satan's current nature is contrary to the nature God originally created him in.

Go read John Calvin's institutes you're having that much trouble understanding.

God has a revealed will and a secret one. You're the one who's having trouble understanding.

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 hahahahah .. im the one having trouble understanding ey? hahahah "now the sepent (nakesh) was the craftiest of all the creatures the Lord God had made" Jn 8:44 Jesus said "you are of your father the devil who was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING" he was a murderer from the genesis of his creation.. Who was it that subjected creation to futility, bondage and corruption? Adam? NO! it was GOD Rom 8:20 'for the creation was subjected to futility..by GOD" you despise Gods Word dont you?

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 "'for the creation was subjected"

Think a moment on the distinction between those two words before you call that a proof. In one moment "creation" in another "subjected". There's a dichotomy there whether or not you refuse to see it.

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 stay on the subject ketter.. the only dichotomy that exists here is your idea that God is omnipotent yet totally at the mercy of His creation. Your exegesis and hermenutical skills are childish and are lacking in honesty. Geez im not even a christian and I can see Gods plan for creation more clearly than you! haha "professing to be wise they became fools" rather discriptive of you wouldn't you say? hehe..

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 "the only dichotomy that exists here is your idea that God is omnipotent yet totally at the mercy of His creation."

Your listening skills are much, much worse. I never said God was ever at the mercy of His creation. The problem of evil is approached as paradoxical, it's not answered theologically.

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 Go read Calvin's Institutes.. They're free of charge under copy right law.

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 Go read the Bible - its free to all with the humility to accept its truth.. ooops - counts you out :)

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 Death is the result of sin; where there is no sin, no death. So where there was no death before Man's disobedience there was no sin. When sin has grown to fruition, it then produces death.

Disobedience to God was the sin... not the knowledge from the tree... not man's original condition, but a man who obeyed his wife over God.

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 you are using a lot of words to say nothing in prticular. Lets re-arrange your last statement into its correct order. Knowledge from the tree (awakening to their true state) revealed mans true condition, which was disobedience.

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 You are taking words out of there context to make every point you have so far.

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 how is me saying "eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was an essential prerequisite for becoming like God" since God says "Now man has become like us, knowing good and evil" out of context? I think its more out of the realms of your understanding because God has not revealed these truthes to you, but wipe the tears from your eyes and blow your nose ketter - He wont forget about you!

[MRKetter81]

@etherform66 "I think its more out of the realms of your understanding"

Oh.. so I'm not the enlightened one.. like Joseph Smith or Herold Camping?

No... You have illogically twisted the context of scripture to suit your own view. You apply a bad exogesis and there's little logic to even follow.

Man was created "good" ... sin is not "good"; ergo man was created without sin.

It was SIN that took opportunity under the law of Moses... NOT the edicts given in the garden of Eden.

[etherform66]

@MRKetter81 ok ketter.. we'll leave it there then. our view points are clearly irreconcilable. you can believe that the sin of adam is more powerful to destroy creation than Christs sacrifice to redeem it - you can believe that God totally messed up by creating beings he knew in advance would sin and be tortured in the blistering flames of and eternal 'hell'. Your 'hell' will stand as an eternal reminder that Gods love fails and He is incapable of reconciling creation to Himself.. its not 4 me

[LouisPlume]

There's a basic lack of morality running through the bible, we are better than that bronze age shit.

[Aphex217Twin]

What's the point of moral freedom then if you're already perfect without it? God is perfect, so perfection means now having moral freedom, which means he created Adam and Eve imperfect, therefore evil is his fault.

[myintellectualjourny]

Why didn't God create us in his image - aka w/out moral freedom?

Why not just create us like himself w/ the freedom to creatively make good choices?

If he lacks nothing, how would we have lacked anything in being created more truly like him-in his image in this way?

Now I say this as a questioning of biblical theology rather than reality - which is to say I don't equate the two. I'm questioning the biblical worldview's making sense within itself (aka The Problem of Evil.)

[infinitemika]

I think ur beng sincere with ur question,& its agreat one! But its flawed on 1 major point& that is ur essentionally asking God to create us as God..& ultimatley that cannot happen...then we would be all knowing, all powerfull etc;;etc;;; We need to understand that we are his creatures, wether we like it or not, we are..would u give your creation ur own understanding? We cannot continue to drag God to our finite level, its good to question like u have, but we need to be humble/rational as well.

[myintellectualjourny]

Hi infinitemika. Thanks for the response. Let me clarify: I'm only asking those with a theistic worldview - which I myself do not hold - why their God wouldn't create us MORALLY in his image. That's all. I'm not asking why the biblical God didn't do this (create us in his image) in any other way but this one. Thanks ;)

[Aphex217Twin]

so then God is evil for making us imperfect, and then blaming us for being that way.

[wufpackjack]

Seems by this definition, we will not be morally free in heaven either.

[snotbog1]

Yes, Greg says that very thing in another video.