Fact Vs. Fiction - The Atheist Experience #431

[retrosyk]

I'd gladly accept Spider-Man as my lord and savior.

[ChipArgyle]

If Christianity is the correct religion, why does only 1/3 of humanity follow it? That's something that every Bible-thumper should consider prior to claiming the "truth" of his religion to anyone.

[j919or]

@ChipArgyle Corrupt humanity hates the idea of God. Athesits deny Gods existence while others they take a different route. They invent a God that doesnt demand that they submit their lives to Him and call it religion. Jesus was tortured and killed bc He preached that God demands ur life and He wants to live within u and restore ur wretched self that becomes increasingly evil without complete dependence upon Him.

[ChipArgyle]

@j919or Sure, sure. And what of the Jews and Muslims who worship the same God but deny Jesus was the son of God? Will they be denied Heaven/ Paradise because they worship differently?

It's difficult to say what Jesus preached. Some say he didn't exist. Others note that as most writings about him were done decades after his death, there are no direct quotes available and that he's really more legend than Lord.

It makes your stance difficult to prove but fun to believe I suppose.

[j919or]

@ChipArgyle Nah. No one worships God unless they have the forgiveness of sins and the presence of Gods Holy Spirit. Until then, they just pretend to worship God while they worship self and created things rather than the Creator.

Decades after his death? That falls within the criteria for historical literature and doesnt permit the classification of legend or myth.

Yall will be judged bc you dont want God in your life bc:

1. u like self will

2. and self glory

[ChipArgyle]

@j919or You don't know me yet you claim you know my intentions. That's stunningly arrogant, and definitively American Christian. Your assumptions about me are, believe it or not, completely incorrect. Judge ye not lest ye be judged.

Yes, decades after his death. You didn't know that? You should read up on some of the history of Christianity that's been studied and documented outside of the Bible.

[j919or]

@ChipArgyle Nah. Of course i knew that, and u totally demonstrated ur wilfull blindness for I said that decades later is still within the guidelines for historical literature.

My conclusions about u are an understatement. You didnt give me any reason not to believe that you are wilfully blind and every reason to believe that you are in denial and in hiding. Come clean!

If Im wrong then tell me why im wrong.

[ChipArgyle]

@j919or Willfully blind to what? In denial of what? There's no substance to this argument whatsoever, and no evidence to deny.

What do you mean "decades later is still within the guidelines for historical literature"? That's gibberish. What guidelines are you talking about? You can't write direct quotes in huge volumes decades after the words were allegedly spoken. Nobody even knows who wrote the Bible.

As for "come clean", point the finger at yourself: show us your god please.

[jesus7es7dios7]

I cant even imagine anymore how horrible and hopeless it is leaving without God in our heart. Without the annointment in our lives..... How horrendous it is to live in a state of atheism.... May God enligthen the people so that Satan (this spirit of doubt) destroys the children of God...

[jesus7es7dios7]

.... Its just Faith...... But it is also a decision you have to make.... Believing or not doesn't make a difference to the truth... The bible says that nonbelievers will also inherit hell.

[jesus7es7dios7]

Please enlighten your children God so that they are not fading this spirit of doubt.

[AtheistExplains]

I think that Jeff and Russell are my favorite two hosts for one reason: they don't interrupt each other. Matt is always interrupting his cohosts.

[Brenda2OOO]

Jeff, Russell, Matt and the other hosts should sit on a High Council and make the laws, instead of Congress. These guys have amazing intellect and common sense.

[gr8z0mbiejesus]

jeff totally reminded me of a Dungoen Master finding notes on old games.... "you dont have a phoenix egg!!!!" lol. nerds; we can smell our own

[berner]

"...people believe false things and are willing to die for them".

I believe.... that whatever doesn't kill you, simply makes you... stranger

[666mamakoala]

Jeff Dee is the man! If I ever meet him, I'll ask him to sign my cleavage.

[Revolution2pointO]

@666mamakoala you should pm me a picture and i'll have him sign it for you ;) jk jk

[Katalyzt]

Perfectly done Jeff and Russell... There is absolutely no contemporary evidence that the fictional jesus character ever existed in real life, ;O)

Katalyzt

[PluralOfEverything]

"Rocks taste like cotton candy, and water is wet."

Having written that, water actually being wet doesn't prove that rocks taste like cotton candy. It would be nice if christians understood that.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 Thats one of the reasons why so many Christians were persecuted by the Romans, they were mocked for having a pathetic messiah. Being a Christian wasn't safe. Looking at it logically, i highly doubt the first Christians just made Jesus up.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 Again, an unproven assertion--the only evidence that xians were persecuted is by xian writers. Then you have to believe that the Greeks didn't make Hercules up.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 Of course the Christians were persecuted by the Romans, there is as much evidence for this as there is for nearly any ancient historic event. Tacitus wrote about it and he clearly wasn't a Christian.

Again this is what it boils down to; Christianity is a part of History, that means it had a cause, in other words it did't just pop out of nowhere. My theory is that a man called Jesus existed, he claimed to be god and was subsequently crucified for blasphemy. Like i said im sure

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 I understand that theists are generally quite certain of their beliefs. What I'm looking for is evidence to support those beliefs, which you have not provided. You are entitled to any belief you like--but if you want me to believe it too, you'll need something more than your certitude. Of couse xianity has a history--what that history is is the point of contention. Saying jesus existed because xianity now exists is like saying santa exists because we now have christmas.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 Pliny The Younger (63 - 113 AD)Pliney admits to torturing and executing Christians who

refused to deny Christ. Those who denied the charges were spared and ordered to exalt the Roman gods and

curse the name of Christ. Pliny addresses his concerns to Emperor Trajan that too many citizens were being

killed for their refusal to deny their faith.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 So we have all this evidence to suggest Jesus existed. What evidence is there that Hercules existed? Many the story of Hercules were based on a real person, who knows, theres no evidence to support it though.

"I've repeated requested contemporary documentary" And iv said, if you knew anything about ancient History (Romans etc) there is no "contemporary" for many of the most famous historical figures.

And im not claiming Jesus to be god. Im claiming he claimed to be god and

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 was crucified for blasphemy. Also the Romans converted to Christianity, They were the ones accused of crucifying Jesus in the Gospels, Do you not think they would deny this? So for the final time, come up with a better theory explaining why we would have all these writings about Jesus and why Christianity was even started and then you would have a case for an argument. For now though im sticking with Occams Razor, and going for the theory Jesus existed.

[vadimcream]

At 7:17 somebody totally farted.

[sned10000]

Looking at the historical evidence, Its quite obvious Jesus existed. These guys are just repeating what they've read off skeptic sites. If they do actually think its more likely Jesus did not exist, then they don't think logically at all.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 Since this was one of the most literate places in the ancient world, could you give us one contemporary writer that mentions Jesus? Remember, he performed many miracles, appeared to the 500, raised the dead, and rose from the dead. Surely one person would bother to write down his name while he was alive, or at least, say within 20 years of his supposed death. I would love to look at your contemporary evidence.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 First of all, an extremely small amount of scriptures have actually survived the elements, for we know, there could have been many more writings about Jesus. Second, very few people actually had enough money to buy Papyrus to write and thirdly, the gospel of mark, was written at the most, 31 years after Jesus' death.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 The extremely small number of scriptures has no bearing on the discussion. Tens of thousands of other documents survived. There could have been other writings about Jesus. The earth could be filled with pudding. Until you provide evidence, there is no reason to believe your assertion. No papyrus? That's hilarious--is your argument that no documents (or very few) survive from that place and time? That's farcical. How do you acount for your very early dating of Mark?

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 Put it this way. I assume you know how a theory works? You give explanation to an unknown, you check it fits the evidence, then you see if you can poke holes in the theory and find some evidence that renders the theory not possible. or even better, replace the theory with a more plausible theory. Christian is embedded in within history, it needs an explanation as to how it appeared, and subsequently grew, at a very rapid pace. My theory is that Jesus existed,

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 Your theory also proves the existence of Zeus, Allah and Shiva. Are you saying you believe nthem as well?

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 No i don't believe them, i don't see any good reason to think they were real. They were first attempts at trying to explain the universe. Jerusalem already had a religion, they were Jews, many of them suddenly changed from Jew to Christianity. There has to be an explanation as to why Christianity sprang up in a Jewish community, think about it logically. If you can't come up with a better theory that explains all of the evidence, then you have no basis for an argument

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 You reject them if favor the belief you hold, although their circumstances are identical. There is just as much reason to believe them as there is to believe what you do, you were just taught to believe what you believe. If you had been born in Egypt, you'd be a muslim. Actually, there is no evidence that xianity took off amongst jews--in fact, they overwhelmingly rejected it, as they still do to this day. The vast majority of converts came from pagan religions.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 Forget about the miracles, do you actually think Jesus did not exist?

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 I think he is a composite character of several different schools of thought at the time. I don't think he was a literal, physical person. Much like the parables he is so fond of, I think he is a parable himself.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 I couldn't buy your theory. The theory that there was a man called Jesus who was crucified and was the cause for Christianity seems the much more logical and plausible theory as to why the gospels were written. can you name 3 *credible* historians who think Jesus did not exist? You know pretty much every historian believes Jesus existed? even the atheist historians.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 Appeal to authority? I don't think he is any less mythological than Hercules.

[deflamol4444]

5:53 your own government flew does planes in to the buildings.You have rock hard evidence of that!

[Evolvedprimate]

4:10 Josephus,

He writes around the years +70 or +80 (what you call AD I call plus) in his writings he writes "the Christ" But, the word Christ is Greek (Χρηστός) and the Greeks didn't learn about Jesus until much later, how did Josephus new the name Christ.

The Greeks named Jesus “Christ” when they were converted 400 years later.

Josephus proving Christ proves fraud

[tmafkap]

Heresy! Spider-Man really exists!

[winterstellar]

I'm virtually 100% sure that "Jesus" never existed. The stories are all very typical myths/legends, and there are no genuine, secular, contemporary sources mentionig him. There would have been many, so it's very hard for me to see that "Jesus" could possibly have lived for real. And anyway, "miracles" or "supernatural powers" do not exist today and could not have existed then either. Anyone who claims to have supernatural powers is either deluded or a con-man, so no one is worth worshiping.. : )

[PennyLane411]

Oh wow, the spider man thing was brilliant, I'm so stealing that argument!

[ginnyisdacoolest]

Irrelevant, but I like how Jeff got his grammar right at 3:38. 'None of them is'. It's counterintuitive, because it feels like you should say 'None of them are', but 'is' is actually correct.

I'm such a grammar freak

[ninjajesus81]

@ginnyisdacoolest Is that because "none" refers to each one individually, just like "each" does?

[ginnyisdacoolest]

@ninjajesus81 Yeah, it's like saying 'Not one'. So you wouldn't say 'Not one of them are', you would say 'Not one of them is'.

I admit, I only know that cuz of Stephen Fry.

[coolguy98]

You have to admit that this guy stumped these athiest or "believers in nothing" as I like to call them. lol their like "yeah so what if there's a ton of facts supporting your point of view", we're still athiest.

[wimpylassiter2336]

@coolguy98 "believers in nothing" is nihilism, not atheism. nihilists dont believe that life is worth anything. atheists dont believe in any god.

[fatouche99]

@wimpylassiter2336 To add. Atheists have a much more profound love for life then theists. (1) Because we believe this is the only life you get, which makes it infinitely more valuable. And (2) Most religions are actually just death cults.

[wimpylassiter2336]

@fatouche99 amen. lol. i wonder how soon the 'no suicide' rule was put in christianity. "When you die, you go to heaven." Really? Ok. stab. "Let me rephrase...."

[samOFblorx]

@coolguy98 No, that's not what they said at all. And if you think we're "believers in nothing," then you must believe that god is the only belief/idea that matters, and if you believe that then you're an idiot.

[420HashSmoker]

lol @ Jeff's face from 0:07-0:40.

I love this show!

[patrickledford420]

evolution does not disprove god just the religious gods or atleast the literal interpertation of the religions

[Belloran24]

We need more hardcore theists calling in. I want to see some hard questions being answered with emotion.

[fetalbetal]

This was a a good clip. Thanks again. !

[Philip0209]

good caller

[muli456]

subscribed to you a month ago, loving your vids ever since..

[01101100d]

Jeff Dee is one of my favourites coz he always has good answers that are direct to the point and backed with good research, i like the fact he has a tough attitude against the retarded callers. Thanks for posting.

[alexvegas]

I like the fact that he has a big fat ringbinder of facts under the table! I'd love a chance to read it.

[01101100d]

@alexvegas deffo, thats the good thing about it all is how well researched their points are as opposed to the theists who claim god is real coz of the flowers? lol.

[supercrevolution]

Village - once again you post an awesome video. You fucking rock!

[village1diot]

Thanks man. I appreciate the comment, but all the credit goes to the hosts and crew of the show, they are doing all of the hard work.

:)

[supercrevolution]

totally agree. Looking forward to the next video you post.

[OGjimbo]

@villag1diot You are right, they are doing a lot of hard work to produce this show and they should get all the credit in the world for the quality of the product that they provide us with.

But don't sell yourself short. It takes people who are willing to spread that product around and help show people what they might be missing out on in order for anything to achieve any relative level of success.

Exposure on Youtube has helped them out immensely and you are doing your part.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 would give his life up in such a slow, agonizing way, over someone he knew did not exist? Do you not think word would spread, that Christianity was based on someone who never existed exist? notice no one ever denied his existence nor wrote about it, not even the Jews! and they couldn't have been too happy with how they were depicted in the gospels. Trust me, Jesus almost certainly existed, its whether you think he was a normal man or not, thats the real question

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 its fits the evidence. e.g. why there even is a bible, why there are so many writings on Jesus from the ancient world, why Christianity suddenly emerged on to the scene, why so many Jews of the time completely changed the religious views they always thought to be true etc.

Show how my theory cannot be possible and/or come up with a better theory that fits the evidence or just accept the fact he almost certainly existed.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 Since christian spread into a world religion that makes it true? That's your argument? Then you believe that islam and hinduism and buddhism are also true? I agree that no one disputed his existence at the time, say from 0 to around 100 CE--that's because no one says anything about him at all. It's as if no one (or very few people) was aware that he had existed. No one even lists the names of the four gospels until circa 180 (Ireneus).

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 you imply that no one had even heard of Christianity till after 100 AD. so i know you have no idea what your talking about. If there was a gospel floating around a Jewish community, that didn't exactly shine a good light on the Jews, and was completely made up. i think it would have been stamped out pretty fast and not taken seriously. No one in history has ever written claiming Jesus to be fiction, i think its obvious the Jews would have written something about it.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 No, I didn't imply that--you assume the gospels were written by jews in what is now israel--the evidence points to there being written by gentiles further west. The gospels were obviously written by authors using the septuagint version of the old testament (and there are no ancient hebrew versions)--why would jews use a copy of the old testament written in greek and not hebrew?

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 Thallus tries to dismiss the darkness as a natural occurrence (a solar eclipse) but Africanus argues (and any astronomer can confirm) a solar eclipse cannot physically occur during a full moon due to the alignment of the planets. Phlegon of Tralles, a 2nd century secular historian, also mentions the darkness and tries to dismiss it as a solar eclipse. He also states the event occurred during the time of Tiberius Caesar.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 Your talking about an event that no one in all of recorded history says happened, aside from your two or three xian apologists.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 Also theres Celsus.A Roman author and avid opponent of Christianity. He went to great lengths to disprove the divinity of Jesus yet never denied His actual existence

Lucian Of Samosata. Greek satirist and rhetorician who

scornfully describes his views of early Christianity. Though he ridicules the Christians and their Christ, his

writings confirm Jesus was executed via crucifixion and that he was the founder of Christianity.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 We don't know what Celsus had to say--all of his writings were destroyed by christians. Lucian doesn't mention jesus by name. He reports the stories that he had heard, that christians believe in a guy that was cruxified. That's it. I hear those stories all the time--it doesn't make them true.

[moopism]

@BiffWhitebread13 I had this very conversation with sned a month ago and when I pressed him for proof he ran. Now he's over here with his little dog and pony show. Too funny.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@moopism In his defence, defending that which cannot be defended is hard work....

[moopism]

@BiffWhitebread13 It is a Sisyphean task, that's for sure.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus (69 - 130 AD) Gaius Roman historian who recorded

the lives of the Roman Caesars and the historical events surrounding their reigns. He confirms Christianity being founded by Christ.

Thallus (~ 52 AD) Although his works exist only in fragments, Julius Africanus debates Thallus' explanation of the midday darkness which occurred during the Passover of Jesus' crucifixion.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 Here's how this one breaks down--a game of telephone--George Syncellus, writing in the 9th century says that Julius Africanus, writing in the 2nd century, says that someone named Thallus mentions an eclipse, around when jesus was supposed to have lived. That's it. That's your evidence. Interestingly, no one else in all of antiquity mentions an eclipse at this time. Or jesus.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 The Suitonius reference again, only proves that there were christians, not that there was a historical jesus.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 The standard for writing a Roman emperors biography, was 400 years after their death. If you only accept contemporary evidence for your historical standards, then i can't see you believing most events from the ancient world. Also We know from numerous, independent, contemporary accounts (most written by non Christians) that St Peter gave up his life over via upside down crucifixion. We know Peter was an eyewitness to Jesus, think about it logically, do you think Peter would

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 Please provide these non-christain accounts of Peter's death, earliest first. The name of the writer and the document will suffice. We don't know Peter was an eyewitness to Jesus--we know the bible says he was, which proves nothing. 9-11 graphically illustrates that people gladly die for non-existent gods--unless you think those hijackers are with their 72 virgins right now.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 Its also VERY obvious it is not a "composite character of several different schools of thought"

If you study the ancients you'll realise, Gods were always perceived to be great warrior like leaders, who would crush anyone that stood in their way. Jesus was mocked, beaten and crucified. Why would a group who wanted to make up a god, completely go out their way to make their god the opposite to a warrior?

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 No--the book says jesus was mocked and beaten--there's no contemporary evidence for that, and no evidence as all outside of the book written to promote that particular religion. If you look at the writings of the gnostic xians--the first xians, you'll see that they did not believe in a physical jesus, and that he represented a spiritual, not physical, resurrection. I think the gospels were meant as allegory and later xians took those stories literally.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 you know how a theory works in science, History etc.? My theory works because it would explain why we have Christians, why there are so many historic documents about him, etc. Either come up with a better theory explaining why we have all these documents on Jesus or just give up.I think its no coincidence that the only people to EVER deny Jesus' existence are the ones who live the furthest from his lifetime. The gospel of Mark was written at most 34 years after Jesus' death.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 Thanks for making my point--there are no contemporary documents whatsoever that mention jesus--zero. Again, I ask you why you date Mark so early--even the most conservative xian scholars date it around 60-70, although I see no reason to date it that early.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 Again unless you can put a better theory in the place explaining why we have the new testament, you have no basis for an argument. Im not trying to give evidence for Christianity as truth, just that Jesus of Nazareth actually existed.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 You have no more evidence to believe jesus was historical person than you have for hercules. I've repeated requested contemporary documentary evidence but you have provided none, mostly because there is none. Your premise is "Since a major religion is a result, he must have existed." Then you have to agree that every other god out there also exists. But if it makes you feel better, no worries.

[sned10000]

@BiffWhitebread13 The historical evidence we have supports that there was once a jew named Jesus who claimed to be god and was subsequently crucified. There is more evidence for Jesus than there is for any important figure of that time We haave Tacitus (55 - 120 AD) Tacitus considered one of the greatest historians of ancient Rome,he verifies the Biblical account of Jesus' execution at the hands of Pontius Pilate.

[BiffWhitebread13]

@sned10000 Yes, Tacitus was a great historian--and he makes no mention of Jesus Christ. He was born after Jesus was supposedly executed, so not a contemporary. He does mention a Chrestus in conjunction with christians--all this proves is that there was a cult, called christianity, that worshipped someone called christ. It makes no mention of a literal, historical jesus. This is also the only mention of christian persecution by the romans--unearthed in the 11th century.

[tuck5649]

@supercrevolution True that Village! I've really enjoyed watching all these ACA videos on Youtube, and many of them are uploaded by you. So thank you very much.