This training is kind of pointless, because it teaches a harmful skillset.
When someone has a knife and you managed to grab the wrist, their teeth and a bit off piece of tongue should be already flying out of their mouth as your other hand smashed under their chin.
If you have time to "reengage" with them, in real situation this time should be used to get the fuck out.
An Aikido technique may be done in this scenario but only if you start with a massive arm drag. Anything else = Aikido FAIL
Are you sure your reptilian brain (one making split-second decisions) will be able to make that distinction during a real attack, with andrenaline dump, tunnel vision, memory fragmentation, the works ?
It will do what you've drilled into it the most. If you spend years training in a pointless game that dresses up knife attack reflexes in a harmful way, that's the way you'll most likely react - forget about the immediate strike, focus on pointless wrestling, and get stabbed to death.
Lot's of folks subscribe to this point of view and with pretty good reason. However, that means that judo, Tae Kwan do, MMA, point or full contact karate, catch-as-catch can wrestling, greco roman wrestling, all are pointless games. Which can be debated for days, weeks, months, ad infinitum...so the deal is to train both ways which also can be debated is impossible.
You cannot compare an entire art to a specific drill. I evaluated this specific drill and its effects on a person's long-term well-being in time of crisis.
Every art can be effective depending on circumstances and one's focus. This particular drill however, addresses a very dangerous, possibly fatal scenario that mimics something that can happen in reality.
One's untrained reaction may turn out to be less life-threatening than that one taught by this drill.
A pointless agument, but....if an aikido randori player was faced with someone in front of them weilding a knife I highly doubt they would tie them up as we do in our matches, at least I wouldn't. Ru saying that if we train for a particular "GAME" thats how we'll fight? If so this is ridiculous. I've been in just minor scuffles and have had no problems letting my hands go (punching). Never have I ever trained this way for an Aikido randori match but in real life that wasn't an issue.
In Aikido you simply DONT do serious striking in randori, period. Filling that void from elsewhere (another art or just schoolyard brawling experience) does not do any harm.
This is not the same as taking an existing skill/reaction and then _changing_ it into something that goes against all common sense. The reptilian brain is very simple. It does not switch between styles, and it does what's been drilled into it the most.
I would absolutely agree with u if what u are watching in this video was how I trained to take on an attacker with a knife. However, this is not the case. Serious Randori players train for this particular game. I do not train for these unrealistic games so that I can become a great fighter. I train this way because I want to become a great Aikido Randori player.
Then "four-direction-throw" you should be offering the same criticism to all boxers, judokas, wrestlers, etc. who train how to play a game. So are all martial arts bogus if they have a sport aspect and their practitioners practice a sport version? And yes, I can compare entire martial arts in the exact same way as you are making huge assumptions based on seeing this video which has enabled you to judge an entire curriculum.
Look up "straw man fallacy", because this is what you're doing.
I never judged an entire cirriculum. I judged the training method presented in the video, under which I commented, correspondingly.
This training method influences the trainee's reflexes - no matter which other methods they may study in regards to knife defense, it muddies the waters of subconscious response.
I will stop repeating myself now. Look at the bright side - this exchange hasn't devolved to a level of "Youtube debate".
It's not that i disagree with you, I actually basically agree with what you are saying. However, unless you are willing to remove all socializing aspects from our lives we will always have subconcious influences that will affect how we react in a confrontation. To be ready to kill, you have to train to kill. That is the difference between budo and bujutsu, neh? I play budo sports. But I train bujutsu, as does JRamey. Thanks for not devolving to the typical Utube debate!
"When someone has a knife and you managed to grab the wrist, their teeth and a bit off piece of tongue should be already flying out of their mouth as your other hand smashed under their chin."
So in order to subconsciously do this in real life based on reflexes that u've trained, do u actually smash ur ukes under the chin and cause them to spit out their severed tongue. If not then i'm afraid ur "reptilian" brain will stop just short of what should be a real strike.
jrame: I'm glad that my early reply stuck in your head enough for you to expend effort to write another response to it.
There's of course, an obvious difference between what this kind of training imprints and what Krav Maga-type training imprints.
Even though you don't smash the uke, the gap between what you're doing and between what you should be doing is astronomically smaller than it is between reality and knife randori portrayed in this video.
It wasn't the response itself. More like the pure ignorance and contradictions that followed. U fight how u train. Correct? I've heard numerous accounts and know people personally who have trained to strike someone or break a limb and then when they got to that position in real life, they either pulled their strike or released the lock bcuz that is how they trained. But!..i'm glad to know that krav maga training has some way around this.
jrame: Congratulations on crossing into "Youtube comment" territory with the lack of basic reading comprehension and the ad hominem. Good luck with that.
I've addressed his arguments as they were. He did not return the favor. When a person ignores the part where you addressed their argument, and keeps repeating the same argument ad nauseum, they can no longer be communicated with.
Pointing out his lack of reading comprehension is not an insult, it is something easily observable by anyone who cares to follow the exchange.
Now, calling someone ignorant is an ad hominem. "It wasn't the response itself", it was "my ignorance". See.
I see, "to the man", nice use of latin Ad Nauseum. Were you a debater at some point in your life, are you a lawyer now? Sound more like that than an MAer interested in cont. a discussion which you started by flaming our silly little game. And it is a silly little game, all games are. However, the merits of the total system outweigh the possible inherent danger u perceive as bad instictive reactions formed by the game IMHO. And wht u said was insulting: own up to it.
Either you're implying that a martial arts practitioner should be capable of clarity - and I agree with that - or you're implying that a martial arts practitioner should be an uneducated simpleton incapable of following logic - which I disagree with.
For sanity's sake, let us hope it was the former. That said, I have to point out that I was the one who expended the most effort to maintain clarity in this exchange.
If we're demanding apologies now, first, I'll be waiting for mine.
Since u started the debate I'd think it was ur responsibility to maintain clarity; as to the most? T'any rate, I believe the majority of MAs who advance in rank are bright, insightful and very capable of clarity, common traits in smart folks. Apologies? Didn't ask u for one, ergo no need to give u one. I asked bout ur intentions in the debate cuz it seems you perceive yourself to have the only correct POV on MA, so do you post to debate&win or to exchange ideas/concepts? Waz ur motivation, JC.
Maybe this will help really move along this discussion: we don't train tanto randori thinking of the tanto as a knife. It's scoring instrument, not a weapon. The point of the game is NOT to to show you can survive a knife attack; there are no slashes, no grabbing back, no hitting, no judo throws The point is to show application of aikido principle correct timing and distancing at specific circumstances: arms length, committed attack. So limited carryover habits, combat training this is not.
I don't know what to say other than thats absolutely incorrect. When in a real fight i have not and would not "play" randori. I would punch, kick, headbutt and anything else that is absolutely illegal in randori and never drilled.
This training is kind of pointless, because it teaches a harmful skillset.
When someone has a knife and you managed to grab the wrist, their teeth and a bit off piece of tongue should be already flying out of their mouth as your other hand smashed under their chin.
If you have time to "reengage" with them, in real situation this time should be used to get the fuck out.
An Aikido technique may be done in this scenario but only if you start with a massive arm drag. Anything else = Aikido FAIL
shihonage 2 years ago
It's a game. Not self defense. Training for this and training to defend yourself are completely different
jrame 2 years ago
Are you sure your reptilian brain (one making split-second decisions) will be able to make that distinction during a real attack, with andrenaline dump, tunnel vision, memory fragmentation, the works ?
It will do what you've drilled into it the most. If you spend years training in a pointless game that dresses up knife attack reflexes in a harmful way, that's the way you'll most likely react - forget about the immediate strike, focus on pointless wrestling, and get stabbed to death.
IMO.
shihonage 2 years ago
Lot's of folks subscribe to this point of view and with pretty good reason. However, that means that judo, Tae Kwan do, MMA, point or full contact karate, catch-as-catch can wrestling, greco roman wrestling, all are pointless games. Which can be debated for days, weeks, months, ad infinitum...so the deal is to train both ways which also can be debated is impossible.
AikidoBob 2 years ago
You cannot compare an entire art to a specific drill. I evaluated this specific drill and its effects on a person's long-term well-being in time of crisis.
Every art can be effective depending on circumstances and one's focus. This particular drill however, addresses a very dangerous, possibly fatal scenario that mimics something that can happen in reality.
One's untrained reaction may turn out to be less life-threatening than that one taught by this drill.
Thats where my concern comes from.
shihonage 2 years ago
A pointless agument, but....if an aikido randori player was faced with someone in front of them weilding a knife I highly doubt they would tie them up as we do in our matches, at least I wouldn't. Ru saying that if we train for a particular "GAME" thats how we'll fight? If so this is ridiculous. I've been in just minor scuffles and have had no problems letting my hands go (punching). Never have I ever trained this way for an Aikido randori match but in real life that wasn't an issue.
jrame 2 years ago
In Aikido you simply DONT do serious striking in randori, period. Filling that void from elsewhere (another art or just schoolyard brawling experience) does not do any harm.
This is not the same as taking an existing skill/reaction and then _changing_ it into something that goes against all common sense. The reptilian brain is very simple. It does not switch between styles, and it does what's been drilled into it the most.
You fight the way you train.
shihonage 2 years ago
I would absolutely agree with u if what u are watching in this video was how I trained to take on an attacker with a knife. However, this is not the case. Serious Randori players train for this particular game. I do not train for these unrealistic games so that I can become a great fighter. I train this way because I want to become a great Aikido Randori player.
jrame 2 years ago
There's a chasm of difference between training for self-preservation and training for being a great fighter. I was addressing the former.
shihonage 2 years ago
Then "four-direction-throw" you should be offering the same criticism to all boxers, judokas, wrestlers, etc. who train how to play a game. So are all martial arts bogus if they have a sport aspect and their practitioners practice a sport version? And yes, I can compare entire martial arts in the exact same way as you are making huge assumptions based on seeing this video which has enabled you to judge an entire curriculum.
AikidoBob 2 years ago
Look up "straw man fallacy", because this is what you're doing.
I never judged an entire cirriculum. I judged the training method presented in the video, under which I commented, correspondingly.
This training method influences the trainee's reflexes - no matter which other methods they may study in regards to knife defense, it muddies the waters of subconscious response.
I will stop repeating myself now. Look at the bright side - this exchange hasn't devolved to a level of "Youtube debate".
shihonage 2 years ago
It's not that i disagree with you, I actually basically agree with what you are saying. However, unless you are willing to remove all socializing aspects from our lives we will always have subconcious influences that will affect how we react in a confrontation. To be ready to kill, you have to train to kill. That is the difference between budo and bujutsu, neh? I play budo sports. But I train bujutsu, as does JRamey. Thanks for not devolving to the typical Utube debate!
AikidoBob 2 years ago
"When someone has a knife and you managed to grab the wrist, their teeth and a bit off piece of tongue should be already flying out of their mouth as your other hand smashed under their chin."
So in order to subconsciously do this in real life based on reflexes that u've trained, do u actually smash ur ukes under the chin and cause them to spit out their severed tongue. If not then i'm afraid ur "reptilian" brain will stop just short of what should be a real strike.
jrame 2 years ago
jrame: I'm glad that my early reply stuck in your head enough for you to expend effort to write another response to it.
There's of course, an obvious difference between what this kind of training imprints and what Krav Maga-type training imprints.
Even though you don't smash the uke, the gap between what you're doing and between what you should be doing is astronomically smaller than it is between reality and knife randori portrayed in this video.
shihonage 2 years ago
It wasn't the response itself. More like the pure ignorance and contradictions that followed. U fight how u train. Correct? I've heard numerous accounts and know people personally who have trained to strike someone or break a limb and then when they got to that position in real life, they either pulled their strike or released the lock bcuz that is how they trained. But!..i'm glad to know that krav maga training has some way around this.
jrame 2 years ago
jrame: Congratulations on crossing into "Youtube comment" territory with the lack of basic reading comprehension and the ad hominem. Good luck with that.
shihonage 2 years ago
And so have you by insulting him...guess it always ends up this way...
AikidoBob 2 years ago
AikidoBob:
I've addressed his arguments as they were. He did not return the favor. When a person ignores the part where you addressed their argument, and keeps repeating the same argument ad nauseum, they can no longer be communicated with.
Pointing out his lack of reading comprehension is not an insult, it is something easily observable by anyone who cares to follow the exchange.
Now, calling someone ignorant is an ad hominem. "It wasn't the response itself", it was "my ignorance". See.
shihonage 2 years ago
I see, "to the man", nice use of latin Ad Nauseum. Were you a debater at some point in your life, are you a lawyer now? Sound more like that than an MAer interested in cont. a discussion which you started by flaming our silly little game. And it is a silly little game, all games are. However, the merits of the total system outweigh the possible inherent danger u perceive as bad instictive reactions formed by the game IMHO. And wht u said was insulting: own up to it.
AikidoBob 2 years ago
AikidoBob:
Either you're implying that a martial arts practitioner should be capable of clarity - and I agree with that - or you're implying that a martial arts practitioner should be an uneducated simpleton incapable of following logic - which I disagree with.
For sanity's sake, let us hope it was the former. That said, I have to point out that I was the one who expended the most effort to maintain clarity in this exchange.
If we're demanding apologies now, first, I'll be waiting for mine.
shihonage 2 years ago
Since u started the debate I'd think it was ur responsibility to maintain clarity; as to the most? T'any rate, I believe the majority of MAs who advance in rank are bright, insightful and very capable of clarity, common traits in smart folks. Apologies? Didn't ask u for one, ergo no need to give u one. I asked bout ur intentions in the debate cuz it seems you perceive yourself to have the only correct POV on MA, so do you post to debate&win or to exchange ideas/concepts? Waz ur motivation, JC.
AikidoBob 2 years ago
Maybe this will help really move along this discussion: we don't train tanto randori thinking of the tanto as a knife. It's scoring instrument, not a weapon. The point of the game is NOT to to show you can survive a knife attack; there are no slashes, no grabbing back, no hitting, no judo throws The point is to show application of aikido principle correct timing and distancing at specific circumstances: arms length, committed attack. So limited carryover habits, combat training this is not.
AikidoBob 2 years ago
I don't know what to say other than thats absolutely incorrect. When in a real fight i have not and would not "play" randori. I would punch, kick, headbutt and anything else that is absolutely illegal in randori and never drilled.
jrame 2 years ago
Kudos to both competitors...SSSSSWeet move, Josh.
SenseiArashi 2 years ago