I Don't Even Know What to Say About this Video

[Gleaningz]

Formula of Concord rejects synergism, "that Spirit makes a beginning of salvation and man's power can then feebly act, help and co-operate thereto, and in the progress and support of this work, it can co-operate, by its own powers, with the Holy Ghost." To say that man has a free will after regeneration is no different than saying man has a free will prior to. God would have us to see His will toward us in Christ, and trust that His will cannot be hindered, not even by our own wicked will.

[Revfiskj]

@Gleaningz The article you reference (FC III) takes pains to express that it is not interested in talking about the dissimilar situation of the human will *after* rebirth, but only *after the fall and before rebirth.* You are simply incorrect and not reading the article in assuming there is no difference between these two states.

[Revfiskj]

@Revfiskj As to synergism, the key to the phrase is "by its own powers" and "to help, cooperate...or prepare itself *for grace* (the latter which you did not quote.)" This is speaking of salvation, not of getting to participate in loving God as the regenerated man. Ep.II 17 goes on to say "it is correct to say that...after this conversion the reborn human will is not idle in the daily exercise of repentance, but cooperates in all the works of the Holy Spirit which he performs through us."

[Gleaningz]

@Revfiskj I'm drawing distinction between old man and new. New man has mind of Christ and must serve (choose) righteousness. Old nature is always contrary and must serve evil. There is not in the regenerated a neutral third party making choice between them. It is the operation of the Holy Spirit within us, and His power alone, which makes us willing and obedient and keeps us so. Maybe I'm too sensitive in this free-will age.

[Revfiskj]

@Gleaningz You are correct that the new man is bound to righteousness. But you and I, in this present age, are not only new men, but simul-justus-et-peccator. And you are one person, not two. To be sure, it is the Holy Spirit alone who makes us to receive and live in Christ. Again, I encourage you to read the entire article and consider how to hold everything which it says in the tension of Law and Gospel.

[Gleaningz]

Statement that man, after regeneration, has ability to choose to follow Christ or to fall away doesn't seem to fit with Formula of Concord. "And that in his counsel...he prepared salvation not only in general, but in grace considered and chose to salvation each and every person of the elect, who shall be saved theough Christ, and ordained that in the way just mentioned he would by his grace, gifts and efficacy bring them thereto and aid, promote, strengthen and preserve them."

[Revfiskj]

@Gleaningz And again, FC SD XI 42: "Many accept the Word "with joy" but thereafter they "fall away." The cause for this, however, is not God....rather, the cause is that they willfully turn themselves away again from God's holy command and grieve and embitter the Holy Spirit; they entangle themselves once again in the defilements of the world...so that their last state is worse than the first." We confess the *entire* Formula. When Scripture teaches a paradox, so do we.

[TheVatmom]

@Revfiskj Also, I didn't understand the second question. Are you saying that the thief on the cross is an exception because Jesus said that to him but it's not something that could ever apply to anyone else?

[Revfiskj]

@TheVatmom No one is saved without a Word from Jesus. He must at least preach his Word to you through another Christian. But on top of that, when he does preach, he says, "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins." "Baptism now saves you." He didn't say that to the thief. He just said, "I got ya man, don't sweat it." To you, he says, "you were buried with Christ through baptism into death." Can one be saved only by preaching and without water? Sure.But he gives baptism to save you too.

[TheVatmom]

@Revfiskj That makes sense. Another question (really not meaning to bug you but trying to figure this out): if he says "Repent and be baptized," how can we assume an infant is saved through baptism since he doesn't seem to have the ability to repent yet? Baptists (my background) seem to emphasize a specific point in time of repentence, and I see how that can be flawed. I remember having a trust of God from my early years and doubts because I didn't see a special working of God in my life.

[Revfiskj]

@TheVatmom He also says, "Go into all nations, baptizing and teaching," but does that mean that one must always baptize adults first, and then teach second? No, of course not. Similarly, repentance can come as the infant is raised and taught. Although, it is also an assumption that an infant cannot repent. Scripture doesn't teach us that, and we can't see into infants hearts. So, when it comes down "our assumptions" vs "what Scripture says (ie "Baptism saves,") I'll take Scripture. :)

[TheVatmom]

@Revfiskj But I also was not yet baptized at that time. However, I had a repentant heart. I see a repentant heart in a couple of my children, but my husband wants to wait until they've shown enough "fruit of repentence" to have them baptized (grr. . . I think he's waiting for some great maturity or something).

[Revfiskj]

@TheVatmom Children repent from the moment you start teaching them that they did something wrong. But right here is the problem: who then is the judge of your children? The judge of my children is Jesus, and he said, "Let them come to me, for of such are the Kingdom." And then he blesses them, with Words of promise. Rock on!

[TheVatmom]

@Revfiskj I'm really trying to change my whole worldview, so the first question does help a little--but I manage to muddle it up again when I try to understand infant deaths. I have a hard time believing that unbaptized infants all go to hell (but I don't know LCMS teaching on infant deaths, so that's probably opening a different can or worms). Thank you for your patient explanations. :)

[Revfiskj]

@TheVatmom The teaching on infant deaths is "we don't know what happens to unbaptized infants who are born to Christian parents. We hope they're in paradise but if they're not its because all born in sin are slaves to sin and die without Christ, and the Scripture is silent on the matter." It's a hard teaching, but it's the biblical teaching. "All have sinned and fall short, and are justified by his grace." The question is: where is his grace? --> His promises --> his Word 2 you.

[TheVatmom]

@authorandrewcothran Thank you for that clarification. So if someone can fall from the faith and return, what is necessary for that return? Another baptism?

I'm still really stuck mentally, but I'm pretty sure the Lord is going to have to keep working in my mind to make sense of this to me. I have a hard time seeing a work of man like baptism as assuring salvation--I know salvation is a gift of God. And I see people like the thief on the cross who had faith and no baptism.

[Revfiskj]

@TheVatmom Where does the Bible teach you that Baptism is a work of man? Where does Jesus say to you (as he said to the thief) that you, specifically, not generally, but "Truly, truly, I say to you, will be with him in paradise?" When you can answer those questions, it won't seem muddled.

[Revfiskj]

@authorandrewcothran That latter thing "taught by Lutherans" is neither Lutheran nor Scriptural. Just take St. Peter's Word for it, "Baptism now saves you." & take St. Paul's Word: baptism "buries you with Christ" and "raises you with Christ." Again - you should really do some reading on this, as well as find a Lutheran pastor near you who is willing to meet and talk at length. Face to face will help him understand the nature of your questions better than I can via email. x2 my apologies.

[Revfiskj]

@authorandrewcothran I apologize for my personality which has aggravated you. That was certainly not my intent. My intention was to show you how your question was driving a wedge between you and the answer you seek. Do not divide Jesus and his Word, and therefore, do not divide Jesus and his Words of Baptism and the Supper. They are the Gospel made present in your life, so that you might believe what Jesus has done for you. Without this Word, we could never even know of Christ.

[Revfiskj]

@Revfiskj I recommend that you get yourself a copy of the book Andrew Daas' "Baptism into God's Family" by Andrew Daas. It will, at the very least, give you a sounding board for the many very honest questions you are wrestling with. Also, Dr. Luther's Large Catechism is a wonderful, brief treatment. So is Uuraas Saarnivaara's "Scriptural Baptism" and "Baptism," by Dr. David Scaer (in the Confessional Lutheran Dogmatics Series.) I will send you links.

[PriorySoulTemple]

You are correct Dewey. The church doesn't have the authority and baptism is arbitrary.

If you know in your heart Jesus died to pay the ransom for your sins, you are saved.

End of story.

[Revfiskj]

@PriorySoulTemple Do you have any Scripture passages to support your flagrant attacks against both Christ's gift of the Church and his gift of Baptism into his name? Do you have any Scripture passages to support your assertion that "you" are the active ingredient in salvation?

[PriorySoulTemple]

@Revfiskj of course i do, I'm a minister. have you read the bible?

of course "you" are the active ingredient in salvation, according to Jesus Christ.

[Revfiskj]

@PriorySoulTemple Right on. Rudeness simply will get you ignored my friend. "Have you read the Bible?" Very smooth. But notice, you didn't answer when you had the chance. 

[TuomasErno]

@PriorySoulTemple "of course "you" are the active ingredient in salvation" I thought Christ was...

"according to Jesus Christ." And where does He say that?

"have you read the bible?" It's funny you should ask that because it seems like you've never read what St. Peter and St. Paul say about baptism...

[pete3397]

@PriorySoulTemple

Better answer: "You" are the object of Christ's saving work. Your active ingredient in salvation is to bring your sins to the Cross so that Jesus can die for them.

[timbodemi]

I took "when we actually come to faith in Christ" as most likely a reference to an adult conversion through the hearing of the Word prior to baptism. In other words, it seems to me that the question about conversion and baptism was about whether one can be a Christian and certain of his or her salvation prior to baptism.

[BearealisGames]

Awesome video! A very good, concise summary of Lutheranism. Thank you for supplying this spiritual meat in today's milky society!

[matthewdhewlett]

Was that supposed to be at a church service? What the junk!?

[TheVatmom]

I'm also from a fundamental background, and I'm trying to figure things out regarding baptism and salvation. So if someone is baptized as an infant and goes on to deny Christ, never returning to faith as an adult, would you consider that he has just fallen away? I think both the ideas of decision theology and "once saved, always saved" are contributing to my confusion. So if Lutherans believe that baptism is the sign of their faith, do they also believe one can lose that faith permanently?

[aggierev]

@TheVatmom We believe Baptism is a gift from God that creates faith. So should some one grow up and reject the faith at some point yes, they have left the faith and are no longer saved.

[aggierev]

"Having actual faith," sounds too much like people I have heard say, "Confirmation is when you make your parent's faith your faith." As if it were not your faith to begin with.

[xlorep]

Probably one of the most disturbing music video clips I've ever seen...

Good answers, Pastor Fisk.