Gary Kelley Pastel Demonstration, "Undocumented"

[FreedomInAmerica]

C SPAN “Black Republican Forum” Session 2 (begin at 11:30) Allen West said one of the 1986 caveats was to secure our borders and enforcement our laws, but haven’t happened. (We’re still talking about new amnesty like DREAM Act.) We can’t allow local cities to make sanctuary cities policies, because they will bring our inner city turf wars to epic proportions by bringing in the drug cartel and Columbian gangs. (Mexican Gangs don’t recognize our borders established by the Treaty of Guadalupe)

[FreedomInAmerica]

In November 2010, the unemployment rate was 9.8% with 15.1 million unemployed. (15.1 million/9.8%) = 154 million are able to work in the workforce. 11,941,812 (or 11.9 million) skilled jobs provided to illegal immigrants. GOOGLE “illegal immigration counters”, the 15.1 million unemployed could take the 11.9 million available jobs. The unemployment rate could be reduced to 2.1% {{15.1-11.9)/154}

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Allen West 2012

[mwinahaha]

I bought this video through the download, it's pretty good, a pity about the quality though. Part one is alright but Part two is clearly pixelly, even at the automatic small viewing size.

[mittROMNEY666]

"the drawing and painting skills are lacking thanks to a steady amount of wars since the Spanish-American War. "

possibly a contributing factor but i think the real culprit is the camera. once it wasavailable, it was too tempting to pass up. people no longer wanted to devote years of study to their craft - the camera allowed even a novice to have perfect drawing. and once everyone could do it, it ceased to matter.

[DonJusko]

Needs more Italians though? You betcha, it's a very small list, I might even have missed some of my favorites.

Today we have the most advanced color pigments in history but the drawing and painting skills are lacking thanks to a steady amount of wars since the Spanish-American War.

[mittROMNEY666]

i agree w most of ur list. needs more italians though. even the more realistic artists of the baroque/rococco period like caravaggio, velazquez and hals did far more than just replicate what they saw.

once we get post 1850 and the camera becomes available, there is a definate break however. u dont really see the same level of fluency in the draftsmanship. the value and color is more accurate (and so is the draftsmaship if ur talking about mechanical accuracy). but something has been lost.

[DonJusko]

I didn't see mittROMNEY666's last post, I was writing mine. Mitt is right and wrong. First you train with models before you then you paint stories with what you have learned.

[DonJusko]

I disagree with mittROMMEY666, being a great artist is being able to paint anything in front of you. I include that artist and the one able to remember what they learned and paint a story, like Masaccio, Caravaggio, Van Dyck, Raphael, Rubens, Rembrandt, Velasquez, Frans Hals, Vermeer, Murillo, Lebrun, Mignard, Delacroix, Bellows, Shishkin, Goya, Vigee-LeBrun, Levitan, Pukirev, Polenov, Courbet, Bouguereau, Repin and Homer. I may have left out some but you know what I mean.

[DonJusko]

I don't think Bouguereau used the chambre claire in any of his final work, I think it was more of a gadget he toyed with. I played with one a long time ago and know how limiting it actually is. It doesn't take long to out grow it. To me Bouguereau is a fine artist who worked in his studio with live models.

Klimt is not what I call a finished fine artist as I said before. He never learned the basics.

Van Gogh played with a Retical but left it behind as unnecessary.

[mittROMNEY666]

"Klimt is not what I call a finished fine artist as I said before. He never learned the basics."

klimt won a scholarship to the vienna school of arts and crafts and studied there from 1876 - 1883. In 1888, Klimt received the Golden order of Merit from Emperor Franz Josef I of Austria for his contributions to murals painted in the Burgtheater in Vienna. - from wikipedia

[DonJusko]

Yea, I know, and Piccaso is a great artist. I have my own taste and it not influenced by the likes of others. I doubt if Emperor Franz Josef or his advisers really knew anything about art.

[mittROMNEY666]

don have u actually looked at the burgtheater paintings? they are highly refined academic works - reminiscent of alma-tadema. klimt won plenty of academic competitions and was highly thought of by the establishment early in his career. now u may not like klimt or tadema, but to say he hasnt mastered the basics is a bizarre claim. this guy wasn't picasso.

[DonJusko]

I tried to give the links that show the lack of basic knowledge in ariel and lineal perspective, while his resume is impressive I don't think his paintings are.

I tried 2 more times to post links to the paintings I'm talking about even encrypting them with spaces but they won't post.

If you would like to go to a forum where we can post the paintings we are talking about I would like that.

[DonJusko]

I downloaded 40160204~Vienna-Burgtheatre-Co­urt-Theatre-Posters.jpg. He is not what you say. He is limited to 1 point perspective and would never even dream of 4 point perspective. Her right raised arm is as bad as the MGM logo girl. I overlaid his perspective lines on my image if you would like proof I'll email it to you.

[mittROMNEY666]

u seem to be holding klimt to unreasonable standards here. which of the old masters or 19th cent artists ever used 4 point perspective? i can think of the mirror in the arnolfini portait, a sp by parmigianino, carel fabritus' view of a delft street. but there were not many. there is a very clear 3 point in klimt's medicine. whenever u draw a figure it pretty much has to be at least 2 point.

[mittROMNEY666]

admittedly, his architecture is mainly 1 point but that is true for the vast majority of artists at the time; its just a stylistic choice.

as far as aerial perspective, klimt's knowledge is evident in his taormina. i admit his later works are primitive.

[DonJusko]

1894 KK or Court Theater built.

Using1900 to be the date of this mural and other murals with one point perspective.

If you go here and click on the thumbnails you will see what I mean about lacking the basics.

(I sent all the links from my inbox)

[DonJusko]

1893, Klimt and Matsch are commissioned to decorate the ceiling of the Great Hall of the new University of Vienna. The series of paintings, "Philosophy", "Medecine" and "Jurisprudence", provoked widespread controversy. He is never to accept a public commission again.

It was said "He was painting in the past".

[DonJusko]

For 20 years Moscow (1000 miles away) had been painting with 4 point perspective.

This is new page link to this painting. Vasiliy Polenov. Granny's Orchard. 1878.

Oil on canvas. The Tretyakov Gallery, Moscow, Russia.

[DonJusko]

"there is a very clear 3 point in klimt's medicine. whenever u draw a figure it pretty much has to be at least 2 point."

Now you can send me links from my Inbox.

Klimt never used 3 or 4 point perspective, he didn't know they existed. His figures did not size correctly in distances. Foreshortening is the only perspective in figures and I already stated how badly he did there.

I'm sorry, but this guy will not make the list no matter how much he is promoted.

[mittROMNEY666]

depends which "master" ur talking about ... artists like michelangelo and rubens didnt need models - they had studied enough so that they could draw from imagination. i dont think ur a master unless u can do this.

[tohu126]

so if Bouguereau used something that is just like using photos today. would you call him an illustrator or fine artist? I could go through the list and back to my point is that not just illustrators but fine artist and painters use references (photo). You need to look into klimt more, get some books about his life or dig deeper into the internet and say you're wrong again. Before you say anything, research and understand what you're talking about. This will be my last comment to you.

[mittROMNEY666]

if u use ref ur a hack, end of story. and as far as im concerned, that includes models too, unless u make significant changes that suggest a deeper understanding of the subject. the sight-size method currently experiencing a resurgence in popularity is complete bullshit. might as well just trace. replicating what is before u is not art.

[DonJusko]

5th try.. Klimt, he's not a commercial illustrator or a fine artist.

He didn't understand aerial perspective or lineal perspective so his landscapes were childish.

link removed.. search his name and landscapes.

His human proportions and foreshortening were below college graduate work.

Link removed, just look at his life child drawings or portraits.

What category would you put Chagall in? Some call him great, I don't. Neither one of them could paint what was in front of them even with a photo.

[mittROMNEY666]

mucha basically did trace photos - this is well known. look at taschen's symbolism book and it shows a comparison of photo ref to final work

klimt early in his career sold portraits based on photo ref and also drew in a highly refined (but dull) academic style. in the middle of his career (my favorite part by far) he drew in a more imaginative but still highly skilled manner. ( look at the now sadly destroyed medicine and philosophy). only later on did he became more abstract. klimt > mucha

[tohu126]

All professional illustrators use references, Old master painters use references. If you're calling illustrators plagiarizers then you might as well point fingers at klimt, sargent, mucha, carravagio, rembrandt, etc. An illustrator is not a certain kind of person, it is commercial art. get that through your thick skull. It doesn't matter if it is on location, there will be an illustrator out there that is able to do that.

[DonJusko]

Anyone being paid to produce commercial art work needs references for accuracy. I don't think of that as fine art although it may be fine commercial work. I don't understand your point, Klimt and Mucha I would put in the commercial category even if they didn't use photo mechanical means. Sargent, Carravagio and Rembrandt studied the figure long enough to paint what they saw. Setting up displays or mirrors to paint from is perfectly acceptable. The end result is an accurate to life painting.

[tohu126]

Well my point is that any painting that has some form of polish that is either fine art or commercial has and needs references. You said you doubt illustrators can do on location work. Does that mean mucha or klimt are not able to do on location work well? hardly, so you shouldn't really generalize what illustrators are capable of doing. Camera obscura used by old masters is basically a projector for tracing on the canvas by the way.

[DonJusko]

I think you are wrong on all 3 points. So what do we do now, agree to disagree or go over each point?

[tohu126]

ill accept the first to be wrong. explain the second and third

[DonJusko]

Mucha, while I like his decorative and cartoon wood-cut styled work and no one can fault his use of color or design. He is so capable his work could be considered great but it is still in the realm of commercial. Could he paint realistically? I searched his work and have to say yes he could. Could he paint on location, yes he could if he wanted to. As a total group of work he is a fine artist so I was wrong, I don't think he used any references but life.

Klimt next.

[DonJusko]

Artist painting devices

Gauze, stretched on a frame and drawn on, shows fore shortening and accurate layouts.

Retical, a string grid on a movable frame held in one spot to relate size proportions.

Mirror, to see in reverse, placed to see the model and picture simultaneously.

Black mirror, to check faults in tonality.

Reducing glass, sees the whole picture without standing back.

Colored glass, cyan will show the strength of warm colors, yellow will expose contrasts.

[DonJusko]

cont.

The so called Claude Glass, was named to honor the landscape artist, Claude Lorraine. He did not invent it though. Gainsborough also was associated with this device also.

It was a compact-looking fold up mirror, that was slightly convex. Either hand tinted or with a black backing. The overall effect for the artist's purpose was to allow the subtlety of the middle values to emerge, while suppressing the overwhelming highlights. The darks were still preserved with detail.

[DonJusko]

My comment on Klimt didn't post, I'll have to do it again.

continued.

Plummet, a weighted string to check against vertical.

Pantograph, enlarges images mechanically.

Measuring stick, size relationships measured from an arm's length.

Camera obscura

A pinhole in a dark room will show an image upside down on a parallel wall. A better image was projected with a convex lens. The later addition of a mirror to reflect the image down onto a viewing surface. Giovanni Battista Della Porta 1558.

[DonJusko]

I think you meant the chambre claire like Bouguereau used. This instrument, by means of prisms, allowed the tracing of a subject's outlines, as observed by the artist, directly onto a drawing board. Used as an artist might use a photograph today, the chambre claire permitted the artist to readily and quickly reproduce certain details of nature which could be used later in the studio as details in a painting. Geez it's difficult to get a point across in 500 characters or less.

[DonJusko]

Part 1

As long as you don't confuse fine art with illustration I don't see a problem. For me, fine art takes time on location, period. Architecture takes twice as long as landscape work. I charge by my time on location. If I only had 3 days it would be a smaller painting then if I had two weeks to do it. All my work is finished on location. Could I do an illustration from a series of photos, of course. Could an illustrator do a job on location, not so much.

[lezvarthok]

Don, I know of an illustrator that previously worked at D and D , and raher famous illustrations, and he went off likw 2months in a desertarea of USA to get into it and translate his vision with the locations he studied. I think he took his time at location. of course, not everyone has this luxury, but also people like puddnhead can tell how important it is to travel and get new experiences, and all this DOES need a lot of time ? Maybe I did not understand your point due to translation.

[vergeofsanity]

"Could an illustrator do a job on location, not so much."

Why not? Wouldn't them being on location provide a better source and, by your deduction, a better end product?

[DonJusko]

Absolutely, and the more time they spent on location the better they would understand color, lineal perspective and aerial perspective. Who can cook a great meal or drive a car in the beginning?

[maretar]

Also some artists can do amazing work without any reference at all, but most can do better work with, and it doesn't mean that they are not using their imaginations. That's where you have to find the ballance.

[maretar]

mittROMNEY666. Imagine you got just few days for painting commision with some gothic cathedral in it and you never in your life sketched this before. Are you going to sit for several days and study cathedral's ornamentations so you can draw them from head few hours before deadline? I don't think so :D. You can't learn completely everything from life before doing professional job. There will always be new things to study. By accepting reference you accept that fact and that's being open minded.

[mittROMNEY666]

"Are you going to sit for several days and study cathedral's ornamentations so you can draw them from head few hours before deadline?"

well, you should if u wanted to do a good job. but being a pro illustrator is all about being a hack just to meet deadline. thats fine for paying the bills. but its not art.

[maretar]

"thats fine for paying the bills. but its not art."

Lol. Maybe it's important for you but I don't really care if it IS or IS NOT art. I just truly enjoy illustration. This is why I'm capable of doing it :D

[DonJusko]

Of course you can also get that info live.

[maretar]

You guys seriously think that professional artists use reference by exactly copying photos onto illustration?

Proper use of reference is in fact learning from observation before you make decision so you give your sketch some layer of realism. For example taking only a pose and exaggerating it, injecting certain personality into face or observing how colors look in the afternoon and making your own palette based on that. This way you not only learn but push illustration onto another level.

[gonzo1275]

"You guys seriously think that professional artists use reference by exactly copying photos onto illustration?"

Who said that?

Using reference and plagiarism are two completely different things...one is cheating, one is not.

[maretar]

gonzo1275. Yes. I know. I was trying to prove exaclty the same thing in that first post from 1 day ago. Please read more carefully paragraph just after that question. I was saying that by properly using reference artist is not cheating.

[gonzo1275]

My bad, I did read that and gave it a thumbs up, but didn't realize you had said it.

I understand who/what you were referring to now...the two jackasses who can't tell their asses from a hole in the ground.

[DonJusko]

We have a shirt pocket digital projector for $300 today that will make the copying shortcut even easier for you who don't have the time to practice but still like to call yourselves artists.

The word has been downgraded to include cooks and dancers, why not you too.

[DonJusko]

Camera obscura would not provide a still image to use for a reference, I pity the person (noob?) calling themselves an artist that had or has to rely on one.

I'm talking about artists working with figures all the time like Elizabeth Vigee-LeBrun, 1775-1842, Courbet, 1819-1877 and Bouguereau, 1825-1905. You know, real artists that didn't need a still image to copy from. It takes time, it takes practice with live figures.

[gonzo1275]

It's obvious that you and mittROMNEY666 are not artists...just wannabe/posers...It takes time and practice no matter what type of reference you use, live or still.

You will never be accomplished artists using your backward thinking. Putting limitations on how you learn is just downright retarded.

[gonzo1275]

I used to think using reference was cheating too...when I was a noob. Any professional artist will tell you that using photo reference is very important.

You noobs need to know your art history too before spewing bullshit. Ever heard of something called a camera obscura? Davinci even had writings on it's use...look it up.

[mittROMNEY666]

"Any professional artist will tell you that using photo reference is very important. "

and im sure a-rod, bonds, and mcgwire would all agree that steroid use is very important for hitting home runs.

artists who use photo ref are cheats, plain and simple.

[DonJusko]

You learn the figure from painting the figure many times. That's when you don't need a model. That's when your a good artist.

[maretar]

After practising several years of drawing figure from imagination I realised it's not entirely a good solution. You're good artist when you never reject using reference no matter what skill level, beacause that means you're always willing to learn new things. If you think you're good enough not to learn then that will quickly lead to stagnation. Not a good thing for artist.

[efortune357]

You're absolutely right. They didn't use them because it didn't exist yet. But it's not about photos per se. It's about reference. They worked from models and draped them apropriately. And if it was feasible we all would prefer it that way. But then again the human form isn't always capable of doing what we want it to. So I may mix and match diff pix to get my desired ref. It's not cheating.

[mittROMNEY666]

photo ref is cheating

[brzlmo]

I guess Frank Frazetta, Norman Rockwell and all the other big names would disagree...

[mittROMNEY666]

they are lozerz. michelangelo rubens rembrandt etc. never used photo ref and they are way, way beyond hacks like frazetta and rockwell.

noob.

[angus147258]

Photo reference didn't exist because photographs didn't exist. Instead they hired models and made charcoal drawings of them in the pose they wanted, they based their paintings off of those drawings. They did use reference, just in a slightly different way. The outcome is the same, however.

[mittROMNEY666]

haha no the outcome is different. they didn't copy models like artists do nowadays. they constructed them mainly using their imagination, the model was only a guide if they even had one at all.

[gonzo1275]

Obviously there are no boundaries to your ignorance.

If you were face to face with a group of real artists spewing this crap they would laugh at your complete and utter ignorance on the subject...as I'm doing now.

[gonzo1275]

It's obvious to any real artist that you, in fact, are the noob. Ever heard of something called a camera obscura? Davinci even had writings on it's use, and it was used ever since...look it up genius.

[mittROMNEY666]

yes i heard of it. so what? its obvious looking at da vincis work that he didnt need it, it was probably just a scientific curiosity for him. durer recommended a similar device as an aid for figure drawing, but only for artists of limited ability. real artists shouldnt need that. noob.

[gonzo1275]

How would you know who used it and who didn't?

You learn through observation...not by making shit up like you do. If da Vinci was alive he'd bitch slap you for being such a dumb-ass-bitch.

[mittROMNEY666]

lol. u can tell, believe me. and i didnt say u dont learn through observation, thats very different from copying though. leonardo sough to understand what he saw, look at his notebooks - this is obvious. face it, ur a hack if u use photo ref. and leo would piss in ur mouth if u used it.

[gonzo1275]

See, this is what you don't seem to understand...there is a huge difference between using reference material and copying (plagiarism) it outright.

So, if we are to use your retarded logic, that would mean anyone that uses reference for anything, makes them a cheater.

In other words you flunked high school and work as a line cook at McDonalds, making minimum wage. Right were you belong...where's my happy meal bitch!?

[mittROMNEY666]

hit a nerve gonzo? its ok to use ref to learn. but NOT for a final work like mr kelly is doing here. that should come from inagination or at least a model. the ubiquitous use of photo ref is one of the main reasons there is so much shit artwork out there (just look at practically any paperback cover for instance). it used to take years of work for artists to refine their draftsmanship. now any dumbfuck with a camera and photoshop can call himself an artist. u r a fraud.

[gonzo1275]

You bore me...go back to playing with your crayons.

[mittROMNEY666]

whatev dude ... go back to tracing photos.

[gonzo1275]

Never have and never will.

You go ahead and continue convincing yourself that you're a real artist by impressing family members and co-workers with your little doodles...and being pissed off at accomplished/professional artists like us...and see how far you'll get with that.

[maretar]

Jeez. You understood what I wrote completely the opposite.

From the very beginning I'm trying to prove that using reference is good thing. I do it from from time to time when drawing illustrations or concept art. Lol :D.

[mittROMNEY666]

just cause ur pro doesnt mean shit. but go on congragulating urself ... ur obviously very proud of ur copied photos. but maybe u should give credit to the real artist - monsieur le camera

[maretar]

"ur obviously very proud of ur copied photos"

miitROMNEY666. How many times I have to write that using reference when painting illustration and copying are two different things before you catch it?

[Abronxl]

I would love to get into pastels on day. looks like a nice medium to work with

[churraheefilms]

Cool :)