I'm sorry I have to tell you this, but you should ban users who make comments on your videos advocating for murder of people based on their political beleifs.
Che’s radicalism was spawned from living in Guatemala during the 1953 overthrow of Jacobo Arbenz by the CIA at the behest of the United Fruit Company (those lovely capitalists who liked to kill brown Central Americans so Americans could have cheap bananas).
Che saw the brutality of U$ Imperialism up close, and gave his life in Bolivia to defeat it. Che fought 3 U.S.-backed dictators during his life (Batista, Mobutu, Barrientos).
History may not ever see such a brave man again. VIVA CHE!!
I don't see how a philosophy that appeals mainly to rich firstworlders can have the same appeal that Che did to the poor. Maybe there's something heroic about cutting taxes for the top 1% and gutting services for the working class that I'm missing out on.
Julian Assange is the perhaps the closest thing we have to someone who personifies to the world the brave, noble, revolutionary spirit that people who admire Che Guevera think they see in him (not realizing Guevara was in real life a cruel executioner and bumbling soldier).
Like all of us Assange no doubt has his flaws, but he's got a long way to sink before descending to Guevara's level. Meanwhile, his story to date has been such that he could well become a "Che-like" libertarian icon.
Wow, interesting to stumble on this vigorous conversation about what I said -- or rather, didn't say. (Admittedly, I didn't expand on my Che Guevara comment as much as I should have, and the headline of the video sheds more heat than light on it. But who am I to complain if it attracts more viewers?) I didn't explicitly make the caveat, as I did in mentioning the Black Panthers, that I was not endorsing their ideology. Should have said ditto for Che. Absolutely he was a cold-blooded murderer.
This is stupid...Starchild??? give me a break. Dude, grow up, get off the hippy clothes and cut your hair and perhaps you might be taken seriously. This is an extremely poor angle to take while trying to get people to listen to you.
In response to commenter "megadrummer2", who's worried I might be taken seriously, and wants to give me fashion and wardrobe advice, etc.
My experience is that people who address me as "dude" usually seem to be trying to establish their own "manliness" and/or "coolness". One good friend is a noted exception (Hey Morey!)
As for the fashion/wardrobe advice, no one who makes anonymous comments from behind a computer screen can possibly expect me to take THEM seriously in such matters.
Considering how Starchild speaks highly of Mary Ruwart's "gentle" approach to promoting libertarianism, the title of this video is quite misleading. Why would the libertarian movement want, much less need, a murderous thug like Che Guevara as a leader? This would be a fundamental violation of the non-coercion principle at the core of libertarianism.
@rickinchvilleva - Agreed. I was not speaking of Guevara the inmate-slaughtering prison warden, but of the *popular image* of Guevara, based on his carefully cultivated "guerilla hero" persona, along with the famous image which enchants many, of him gazing nobly into the distance. Of course the image is as fake as his rep -- in the original photo, Ernesto ("Che" was a nickname) wears a more mundane look. My point was the freedom movement needs risk-takers able to inspire the popular imagination.
"schmij8" writes, "Thanks for the unnecessary shirtless pic. Especially when I'm watching this on my lunch break at work."
You're welcome! Pics & hugs are free. ;-)
But if you had anything to fear from your bosses or co-workers seeing you looking at a sexy photo, I'm sorry to have put you in a compromising position.
There's a YouTube-watching lesson there somewhere.
Hopefully the experience has at least made you newly aware of the prudish, sex-negative character of your workplace!
why bad form? libertarianism = doctrine of free will. Che fought for the cause of self-determination of the 3rd world, can't really get much more free than that. yeah, his ideology was socialist/marxist, but it was in response to capitalist aggression.
libertarians are for freedom. che wanted 3rd world justice. hitler wanted an empire. the US is now the largest empire in history.
it's state vs human rights, not ideology my flag-hag friend, stop choking on the star spangled chode
@shazzbarbaric Why bad form? The idea that a supposed enlightened person would invoke the memory of any psychopathic killer is abhorrent. Ah thats why. Che was a murderous thug no more. His only fight was focused on his own quest for power. Do what thou wilt, is the whole of the law. Is that what you consider libertarianism? Because if it is, you seriously lack understanding. Che is the embodiment of everything libertarianism stands against. Socialism always ends in death camps.
I'll try to tone down both my own as well as your rhetoric. "supposed enlightened" is a passive aggressive insult, "psychopathic killer" is subjective, as well as "murderous thug" and a "quest for power." "Do what thou wilt" is a straw man, which you create and then tear down. And of course you end with the death camps. You're obviously an emotional person, which isn't a bad thing. No Che/Socialism, I get that. But in the real world you have to back your shit up or you're just a troll.
@shazzbarbaric Psychopathic killer is subjective! Lets use your sophistry, Che fought for self determination of the 3rd world, I believe thats delusional, back that shit up, or you are just a troll? The only way my statements can be considered a straw man argument, is for both of us to know that what I am saying is true. I dont know what you think, you have some very ignorant view of Che, so there is no straw man.
Your tactic is changing the subject, because your argument is weak.
man, i just checked out your youtube page and i'm not really sure what to say. i don't know if i can have a rational conversation with someone who's sitting on the gipper's imperialist cock. you want to talk about a psychopathic killer with a way with words...Ronny commanded genocide up and down latin america. but i guess in your world it doesn't count if they're "on our side". are you really 42 yrs old?... and are you literate? read books? you've been conned by the american empire dood
@shazzbarbaric I'm glad you enjoyed my page. I know you dont have an argument, and so do you. You do seem to be fascinated with homosexual references, I wonder what Freud would say. Ron commanded genocide in Latin America, and was he riding a unicorn or a dragon? I looked at your page and found it, a little busy, and very colorful, maybe your missing out. You should take a trip to a bath house and find out if all of those cock references mean anything, I think they just might.
@hydin1 man i'm not afraid of the cock. total freedom man, sexual drug preference color creed etc. my ethical system isn't based on one rule for people like me and another for the "others," "outcasts," "sinners" or "non-americans." the sexual metaphors are strong language to illustrate your submission to dogmatic assumptions. Ronny was a corp propagandist, worked propaganda thru WWII and on into film. then he was hired to shill corporate agenda from the white house. and yeah my page is shit
@hydin1 if you're sincere then i like you man, you're just ignorant. if you're sincere you'll figure it out, with my help or others. can't hold back the truth. yes, international corps have made and continue to make "a killing" in the banana republics of latin america, backwards countries that reagan and others helped to keep oppressed. right now they talk about the "el salvador option" in iraq. you know what that means? instigating a civil war. say what you want about che he never was that cold
@shazzbarbaric On your page you say you are a writer, anything I may have read. Are you published, or are you just a would be writer? I can see by your vernacular and form you must be very well regarded. I am humbled that I have had an opportunity to engage someone of your caliber. Upper east side, little red school house, pack a day, wantabe, huh. Well here's 3 finger snaps for you. Being smart, dont make you right, it highlights ignorance.
@shazzbarbaric - Very well said. Todays it matters less whether someone is "left" or "right", "liberal" or "conservative", than whether they are for individual freedom (libertarian) or government control (statist).
The fact that Che Guevara is widely *perceived* as having fought for social justice in the Third World, even if what he *actually* did was help oppress people and promote a murderous ideology, is what makes his myth potent. The justice-seeking hero is a powerful archetype.
As noted in another post, I was not speaking of Guevara the inmate-slaughtering prison warden, but of the *popular image* of Guevara, based on his carefully cultivated "guerilla hero" persona, along with the famous image which enchants many, of him gazing nobly into the distance. Of course the image is as fake as his rep -- in the original photo Ernesto ("Che" was a nickname) wears a more mundane look. My point was the freedom movement needs risk-takers able to inspire the popular imagination.
@MaoistRebelNews2 And your point is what, Che wasn't? how interesting. History is always written by the victors. huh. Are you a pretend revolutionary, trying to pick up chicks with your dapper attire? Grow up, stop playing D&D and get a job. The real world awaits.
@MaoistRebelNews2 Che was no humanist. Your repugnant admiration for a murderer is unintelligible. Evil is evil no matter what sprigs from it., and in this case nothing did.
@thirdshift47 So let me see if I understand. Che can kill and murder in the name of revolution for Marxist communist doctrine, and thats OK. A philosophy that murdered around 150 million people this last century. The USA sending in the CIA to kill this guy is fascistic because you think so. you must not understand that Nazi are, where socialists. Not only should the CIA have killed him, they still should be killing communists in Latin America. Communist are like cockroaches.
If you want to speak of ideology & death then lets go back as far as the founding of the Americas & the for-profit ideology that thrived on brutal chattel slavery,indentured servitude,child labor,15 hour-a-day wage slavery,vassalage & the genocide of the indigenous people of those regions,much less what's followed since.
Secondly,anyone who actually believes that the Russian Communist Party & the Nazis were socialists are perfect success stories for those regimes propaganda campaigns.
@thirdshift47 Wow, next you will start talking about the crusades. Yes the Communists and the Nazi's where socialists. I understand they didn't teach you this in class, it doesn't fit the meme propagated by your socialists professors. Most if not all of the differences between these two groups is semantics's only. If you believe there is some meaningful difference between the two you are correct at least on one point. The socialist propaganda works.
Look,debunking your pseudo-history filtered through cold war propoganda would barely be a challenge for third-graders,much less grown ups with some sense.
But I agree;there were primarily rhetorical differences between the corporate radicalism of Stalin and Hitler's regimes.
The interviewer must have his head in a dark place. San Francisco as a well run city?
It is the Nanny State world capital and the public employee unions are so strong they have placed the city tens of billions of dollars in the red with unfunded liabilities for healthcare and pensions that can never be paid.
@TheToxicRadio LOL just as they have been for 50 years eh? One thing for sure, Libertarians love fantacy, but they are wrong about history, economics and political reality.
Che the child killer is an empirical & precise definition of a Marxist sadist imbecile. YOU should read, if U do, BEFORE you spout your sickening Che love. No, really. Colonel Robert Neville blogspot com. zombietime com thepeoplescube com therealcuba com che mart com babalublog com PJTV com lookingattheleft com dissectleft blogspot com breitbart com michellemalkin com steynonline com iowahawk typepad com Tim Blair blog Andrew Bolt blog jihadwatch org bestobamafacts com commiebuster com
If only you people were as zealous about the rest of it as you were about putting the f-word out there. We'd actually be getting somewhere. Good grief.
OK, I'm not the only one who finds the idea of a Libertarian "Che" pretty @(#$ silly.
Why not a Libertarian Elvis? A Libertarian "anyone who hasn't executed thousands of innocent people in the name of marxist revolution, or centralized a once-thriving economy and sent it into ruin, or once planned to blow up Macy's in NYC during thanksgiving"?
I mean, come on. We don't need a libertarian Cult of Personality.
@lizardgizard2002 of course it does.. it teaches people how to walk on their own two feet and not ride the arm crutches of others to success like so many of your better-off-dead fellow baby-boomers, who now beg for help from young people to pay for retirement after riding the states to ruination away from anything remotely libertarian (constant wars? massive deficit spending?) .. doesn't that just fly right in your face. they suck indeed. you need to learn how to beg better tho. no cookies.
@spyletu LOL a mental case raises his ugly head. You have no logic at all, just teabagger ranting. Let me know if you ever have something intelligent to say. I doubt it though. Now give your mama's puter back and get out of the basement.
@lizardgizard2002 - Sucking is good, have you never experienced it? Feel free to look me up if you come to SF and want to spend some money. Hopefully "lizardgizard" is not your real name, but as a libertarian I respect your right to it if it is. ;-)
Maybe he could use a butterfly as an icon but it's his decision. I just think using a butcher isn't very friendly. But someone running a porn site isn't into thinking too deeply.
@cloudberry121 - I'm sorry to hear you have found porn to be incompatible with deep thought. Perhaps if you watch more of it, you will in time gain the ability to enjoy it without having your mental processes derailed.
In the meantime, please for your own safety and that of others, do not operate a motor vehicle or heavy machinery around people you find sexy.
P.S. - Sometimes I do use a butterfly as an icon, you might say! :-)
@TheProgressistViewer Logical fallacy balls. Che child killer Guevara was a Marxist Stalinist totalitarian who wanted to replace ALL free market democracies with Stalinist Communist fascist states. DEAD Che was a narcissist sadist coward drop out parasite dumbassgross incompetent uber square who hated "long hairs" rockers gays & anyone who opposed him. therealcuba com che mart com zombietime com thepeoplescube com babalublog com hfontovas com lookingattheleft com dissectleft blogspot com
@gmakepiece AGAIN, I fucking hate Guevara, I know what he was, the point Starchild was making is we need an iconic figure, not a marxist one, but a libertarian...
@TheProgressistViewer Er, riiight, but clearly U don't despise or understand the repellent Marxist sadist & imbecile Che the child killer ENOUGH. No, really. Colonel Robert Neville blogspot com. zombietime com thepeoplescube com therealcuba com che mart com babalublog com PJTV com lookingattheleft com dissectleft blogspot com breitbart com michellemalkin com steynonline com iowahawk typepad com Tim Blair blog Andrew Bolt blog jihadwatch org bestobamafacts com commiebuster com
Colonel Robert Neville blogspot com. zombietime com thepeoplescube com therealcuba com che mart com babalublog com PJTV com lookingattheleft com dissectleft blogspot com breitbart com michellemalkin com steynonline com iowahawk typepad com Tim Blair blog Andrew Bolt blog jihadwatch org bestobamafacts com commiebuster com
@TheProgressistViewer Er, riiight. Clearly you don't despise or understand the repellent Marxist sadist & imbecile Che the child killer, ENOUGH. No, really.
@johnnyreality Logical fallacy balls. Che child killer Guevara was a Marxist Stalinist totalitarian who wanted to replace ALL free market democracies with Stalinist Communist fascist states. DEAD Che was a narcissist sadist coward drop out parasite dumbassgross incompetent uber square who hated "long hairs" rockers gays & anyone who opposed him. therealcuba com che mart com zombietime com thepeoplescube com babalublog com hfontovas com lookingattheleft com dissectleft blogspot com
@johnnyrealityJohnnyunreality, yep, Che the child killer is an empirical & precise definition. YOU should read, if U do, BEFORE you spout your sickening Che love. No, really. Colonel Robert Neville blogspot com. zombietime com thepeoplescube com therealcuba com che mart com babalublog com PJTV com lookingattheleft com dissectleft blogspot com breitbart com michellemalkin com steynonline com iowahawk typepad com Tim Blair blog Andrew Bolt blog jihadwatch org bestobamafacts com commiebuster com
@electer1776 - A few others posting here understood what I was getting at in the video (not super articulately, I admit). Why don't you read some more of the responses, or see my clarification in another post.
"ageinGamer" writes, using too many exclamation points, "All I can say is: keep trotting out the anti-traffic law man-whores for school boards, libertarians."
If I were to reply in kind, I'd say, "Keep trotting out the narrow-minded, conformist, puritans, conservatives." But I realize that in reality, conservatives as a movement have no more control over what you do than libertarians as a movement have over what I do.
So you have no one to blame for my running for school board but me.
@StarchildSF Look, libertarianism is not going to get its 'Che' without being a little image-conscious. Politics might not be the right venue for someone scared of conformists...
"ageinGamer" writes, "Look, libertarianism is not going to get its 'Che' without being a little image-conscious. Politics might not be the right venue for someone scared of conformists."
Move to divide the question (sorry, I've caught some Roberts Rules of Order at LP conventions!) :-) I don't believe one must be image-conscious in order to act heroically by taking bold risks for a noble cause. Developing iconic potential into Che-like appeal may take some image-consciousness however.
@StarchildSF Hippies are evil racist KKK nazi communist globalist new world order bastards. If that's what gets you off then you're a disgusting person.
@StarchildSF Leftists never told the truth once, ever. That's how they control and manipulate the masses. Along with their cultural Marxism and racist agenda.
i thought he was going to be a "liberal" winer but i was suprised someone from San Fransisco thats not completely politically retarded, i agree with fitobcnfito he means the political opposite of Che, Che was a racist murderous evil man,
Great interview. I think Starchild misses on one point, though: when asked why "The Left" resists libertarianism so much, he puts the burden on libertarians. What he demonstrates, while leaving it unsaid, is that "The Left" reject anyone who doesn't believe in bigger government.
Big kudos to Starchild for celebrating ideology; we should all choose our ideology and be stalwart advocates for it.
Yes, "The Left" rejects anyone who doesn't believe in bigger government. Well, aside from Anarchists, council communists, libertarian socialists, etc.
"NHindividualist" writes, "Great interview. I think Starchild misses on one point, though: when asked why 'The Left' resists libertarianism so much, he puts the burden on libertarians. What he demonstrates, while leaving it unsaid, is that 'The Left' reject anyone who doesn't believe in bigger government."
Tempting to believe that, from a partisan perspective, but I don't think it's so simple. I just finished reading (well, listening to) "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera...
...Kundera has some interesting ideas about something he calls "kitsch". By this he doesn't mean Pez dispensers or colored Xmas lights. He uses the term in what he says is the original German sense, to mean kind of a meta-idea, that derives from our "agreement" to live, and to reject that which is not life (that part of it sounds almost Objectivist).
Since opinions vary on what is the basis for being, he says, there are various kitsches. He names a few, then describes leftist kitsch...
..."Since the days of the French Revolution, one half of Europe has been referred to as the Left, the other half as the Right. Yet to define one or the other by means of the theoretical principles it professes, is all but impossible. And no wonder – political movements rest not so much on rational attitudes, as on the fantasies, images, words, and archetypes that come together to make up this or that political kitsch."...
The political kitsch joining leftists of all times and tendencies, according to Kundera is what he calls The Grand March, and defines as "the splendid march on the road to brotherhood, equality, justice. He says this kitsch can manifest in contradictory ideas at different times: "The dictatorship of the proletariat -- or democracy. Rejection of the consumer society -- or demands for increased productivity. The guillotine – or an end to the death penalty." ...
..."What makes a leftist a leftist is not this or that theory," Milan Kundera says, "but his ability to integrate any theory into the kitsch called the Grand March.”
If this is true, it suggests that libertarians can win the allegiance of many on the left by supplying a theory that fits the narrative of the "Grand March" toward justice and equality better than the current politics of the left. This is a less daunting task than it might seem, because the left has largely sold out its ideals.
You are not going to see Libertarian mass movements in the third world. The poor of the world aren't going to organize to passionately embrace a system that has kept them in poverty. Do you honestly expect hundreds of thousands Guatemalan peasants to march for free markets and privatizations? The idea is ludicrous.
The Right has always represented the interests of the upper-class, not the oppressed or underprivileged. This won't change.
@jazzsexsoup - I recommend to you the book "The Other Path" by Hernando de Soto. Quite arguably, proto-libertarian mass movements of a sort already *are* taking place in the Third World.
I'm talking about what de Soto calls the "informal economy" in Lima, Peru, the city that is the main focus of his book, and what you might call the "black market" if you are from the United States.
De Soto fascinatingly describes how squatters and vendors occupy public land and space in defiance of the State.
@jazzsexsoup - I can imagine hundreds of thousands of Guatemalan peasants marching to demand legal title to the government lands (or lands given as large land grants to private holders by corrupt governments) they live on. Security of land titles, along with recognizing informal businesses as legal, are two of the major reforms recommended by De Soto and other libertarians who have studied developing countries.
P.S. - Libertarians ≠ "the Right" or "the Left". Do a web search for "Nolan Chart".
Are you advocating agrarian reform? That doesn't seem to be a Libertarian position.
It's funny that we're discussing Che and agrarian reform in Guatemala. Jacobo Arbenz, a progressive Guatemalan president, implemented a series of mild land reforms in the early 1950's and was almost immediately thrown out of office in a US orchestrated coup.
Che was in Guatemala during the coup (capitalist reaction). He was deeply moved by the event, and vowed that it wouldn't happen in Cuba.
@jazzsexsoup - Georgism/geo-libertarianism is not yet a mainstream libertarian position, but I think support for it in the freedom movement is growing. Especially in developing countries there is an urgent need for land reform to overturn corrupt State grants of "private property" to wealthy interests.
Leftists should also recognize that the actions of the U.S. government, large corporations, etc., often bear little relation to real free markets or anything libertarianism stands for.
I am opposed to both existing capitalism and theoretical laissez-faire capitalism. I would like to see a world that isn't a miserable, dog eat dog competition.
@jazzsexsoup - Understood. But I think intellectual honesty should compel you to recognize and be frank about the fact that what exists in countries like the U.S. today, which I would not even call capitalism (unless by "capitalism" you simply mean the accumulation of capital), bears no more resemblance to the libertarian ideal than what exists in countries like Cuba and North Korea does to the socialist or communist ideal. FWIW, I don't want a world of miserable dog-eat-dog competition either.
I acknowledge that laissez faire capitalism doesn't exist in America, but I also feel that it probably couldn't exist anywhere for a long period of time. Capitalists will inevitably capture the state to use for their own interests.
Can you point to a country that has had "actual capitalism" at any time? Cuba doesn't represent socialism to me, but I can point to a number of societies throughout history that practiced socialism.
@jazzsexsoup writes, "Can you point to a country that has had 'actual capitalism' at any time? Cuba doesn't represent socialism to me, but I can point to a number of societies throughout history that practiced socialism."
People all over the world engage in purely capitalist transactions every day. Any exchange of money for goods or services that takes place in the black market without government interference is laissez-faire at work. Unlicensed taxis, vendors, babysitters, garage sales, etc.
When the state or individuals acting on behalf of the powerful kill soldiers in war it is generally perceived to be legitimate, but when powerless, non-state actors kill soldiers in war it's often perceived to be a heinous act of murder. The same attitude can be seen when watching news reports on clashes between protesters and police.
“I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed an innocent.” — Jon Lee Anderson, author of definitive Che biography.
Inform me of the butchery. The vast majority of people who curse Che as a butcher don't really care about his actions, they simply oppose his politics. When an American soldier kills an enemy combatant in battle they view it as legitimate, but when a leftist guerrilla kills an enemy combatant in battle they see it as a unspeakable crime.
@jazzsexsoup - Are you, as (I presume) a leftist, *defending* the execution of prisoners of war? That's what Guevara did -- he executed lots of "enemy combatants" he was holding as prisoners. Since they were mostly officers and partisans of the former regime, I suppose you could say they weren't "innocent". But that's a pretty weak basis on which to defend Che's murders.
I hope for the sake of your consistency/credibility you were not one of the folks criticizing George Bush over waterboarding!
"YouTubeBlows" -- Remember that nickname when you read his/her comment -- writes, "erotic service provider? he gives handjobs for a living and he wants on the school board? only in san fransisco."
Thanks for that, "YouTubeBlows". It's comments like yours that make me proud to live in SF! If you ever have the courage to publicly own the handle you have chosen, and also decide you would like to run for school board, come to San Francisco -- I hope you'll get the un-bigoted reception I did.
@StarchildSF lol wow Are you the guy in the video? It sure is a disappointment that Reason would interview someone so petty that they'd go into the comments section and distorts peoples words so that he can call them cowards and bigots. Obviously, being an erotic service provider doesn't offer any kind of experience or qualifications for serving on school board.
btw, if I go to San Francisco do I have to lose my sense of humor or does that will that just naturally erode over time?
@YutubeBlows - I have yet to see evidence you *have* a sense of humor (mean-spirited mockery ≠ humor) but no, SF is hardly a humorless place. Where else can you take part in an outdoor public pillow fight, or a marathon where people dressed as salmon run in the opposite direction as the crowd ("swim upstream")?
My run for school board, however, was serious. If you're not bigoted against sex workers, I retract any implication to the contrary. I just found your comment ironic, given your handle.
Sorry but this guy didn't make his point at all. This is what happens when Liberals become disillusioned with their political party and decide to become libertarians thinking it's just another "open-minded" group. I've met way too many Liberal Progressives at C4L events then I care to remember. They hear us speak out against Bush and think we're on their side. It's that sheeple nature that led them to be Leftists in the 1st place. They hear "free health care" and think - great idea!
@thomaserossi Don't you realize that libertarianism began as a socialist workers movement? Don't you realize that Thoreau was a left-libertarian? Don't you realize there are many kinds of liberals: anarchists, anarcho-syndicalists, civil libertarians, populists, progressives, and on and on? Even early Americans like Jefferson and Adam Smith had liberal views about many things.
@thomaserossi I'm more of a Republican and they heard me speak against Bush the whole time he was in, but I also always pointed out that Clinton-KKK was and is much worse, and that the next Dem president would also be much worse than Bush as well.They assumed this was a mandate for communism and voted for CHANGE to end America and set up Bush's commie new world order.Now whenever I complain about Obama they say "Where were you when Bush was in?" To which I say, you're the communist! You're Bush.
@democratsdid9ll I'm not anything in particular, but I am an equal opportunity skeptic. If you were as critical of Bush as you are critical of Obama, then you have my respect. My defense of left-libertarianism isn't that I'd necessarily label myself such but that it's probably the most appealing worldview to me. Maybe it's because I read Thoreau when younger and he had a lot of influence on my earliest thinking. Despite (or b/c of) my left-leaning, I didn't vote for & have been critical of Obama
@erwinthehamsandwich I've previously made an argument for Thoreau being a left-libertarian (see link below), but of course you are free to try to make a counter-argument.
"freesk8" writes, "Starchild is so cool! I remember seeing him dressed as the statue of liberty at an LP convention! :) He lacked credentials, and I remember happily joining the majority when it welcomed him in to the ranks of the voting."
Thanks for your kind words. That would have been the party's 2006 national convention in Portland, when Aaron Starr managed to get the voting procedure modified so that myself and a fellow SF activist were temporarily denied delegate status.
Rothbard was both firey and stuck to his principles. I'll take him any day over a murderous thug.
An ideology based on individual rights isn't likely to gain the support of a socialist, which many on the left are. They do not see how the protecting the rights of an individual is protecting the rights of all.
"strokjl" writes, "An ideology based on individual rights isn't likely to gain the support of a socialist, which many on the left are. They do not see how the protecting the rights of an individual is protecting the rights of all."
If anyone tells you he/she is a socialist, ask if they are a bottom-up socialist seeking to promote socialism as a voluntary choice, or a top-down socialist (statist) seeking to impose it on people via government coercion.
Let me get this straight: about a week ago, Reason TV gave the Nanny of the Year Award to the City of San Fransisco, then they interview a guy who says San Fransisco is "libertarian"?
"realrockvince" writes, "Let me get this straight: about a week ago, Reason TV gave the Nanny of the Year Award to the City of San Fransisco, then they interview a guy who says San Fransisco is 'libertarian'?"
Yup. And if/when you come to understand how it's possible for SF city government to have many characteristics of a "nanny state" and yet for the city to simultaneously be quite libertarian by U.S. standards in a cultural/social sense, you may gain some new insight into libertarianism.
"realrockvince" writes, "If/when you understand what 'Nanny State' means, you'll understand that it cannot also simultaneously mean 'libertarian', smart ass."
Okay, I admit I was too flip with you -- your surprise at Reason naming SF "Nanny of the Year" and then interviewing me talking about the city's libertarian qualities is understandable.
To clarify, SF is not one-dimensional. Consider -- the U.S. has the world's highest per capita incarceration rate, yet is rated as fairly free overall.
@iwustudent101 Che was a murderous racist bigoted thug....... nothing righteous about him, so why inject that name into the dialog? Especially after the Black Panther Party. Dr. Martin Luther King would have been a better choice based on his style of achieving his goals.
Could someone tell me what, if anything, in San Francisco is anything slightly Libertarian? Everything there is controlled by the government.
@blummedia Dr. King didn't take control of the country and this dude was trying to suggest that we need a strong leader to step up for the Libertarian party in such a way that Libertarians take control of the country. It was still a horrible comparison. Maybe he's an infiltrator.
The black market is probably pretty Libertarian in SF; if only because it is by definition not controlled by the government. I say probably because I wouldn't be surprised if it really is controlled by the gov't.
@CaptainLazerus Really? What history books did you read? He stood up in the face of death and conquered bigotry and racism..... have you heard of the Civil Rights Act? Then I was alive then and maybe you weren't.
Che was an immoral butcher and he practiced an immoral political philosophy.
@blummedia Want to show me how free you think you are? Try advertising your name and Social Security Number on You Tube..... Did you know doing so invalidates that number? Or are you a slave to the man who branded you with that number? Thomas Jefferson didn't have a number... let us start by creating havoc in the system with that little step..... I'll tell you what, I'll go get my video equipment and let you know when I've done it, about a week from now..... cool?
@blummedia I can dig it. Che was terrible, no doubt, but he brought about sweeping and fundamental change to the governments he afflicted quickly. Dr. King was more focused on human rights and there are people today that debate if his dream is achieved yet.
I think starchild is angling for something fast and dramatic, not slow and manageable. Fast and dramatic usually comes with weapons and blood, and that's why I wonder if he's really a libertarian. Sounds more like he wants a revolt.
@CaptainLazerus "Dream achieved"? You mean being treated equally like a human being? I think we're there, but I was raised by a black man so maybe I'm biased...... I remember the times we couldn't get a seat at DENNY's in the early 70s, because my mother was married to a black man and my brother is mixed..... thing is, a black man was one of the last managers at that Denny's until a couple years ago, when he passed away.
I understand the need for a dynamic leader... Che aint' it.
@blummedia Well, you have a better perspective on that dream than me - but some people say it still is not achieved. I actually agree with you, but there are others that do not.
I'm not singing Che's praises here - I just pointed out that he was effective at achieving his movement's goals quickly and to a large degree.
What would a dynamic leader look like to you today? A priest, atheist, rich, poor, etc? I think of a stubborn, PO'd housewife that won't put up with the crap we see these days.
"CaptainLazerus" writes, "I think starchild is angling for something fast and dramatic, not slow and manageable. Fast and dramatic usually comes with weapons and blood, and that's why I wonder if he's really a libertarian. Sounds more like he wants a revolt."
Yes, I *would* prefer something "fast and dramatic" over something "manageable". Too much "management" of public policy now. Freedom by nature is not very manageable. Fast and dramatic needn't mean bloody -- remember the Soviet collapse.
@StarchildSF "The Soviet Collapse" would be better stated as "The Soviet Name-Change" as the same people are still running that country.
A rapid collapse would freak people out, and freaked out people tend to make bad decisions and look for leadership. That tends to lead to dictatorship. That's why fast and dramatic is a bad idea.
By "manageable" I meant that the individual people would manage the change - not a central authority. Simply ignoring the state would suffice for this change.
@RodCornholio I hear what you're saying but they wanted to "Legalize" Marijuana to TAX IT!. Not very Libertarian if you ask me...... they are willing to tax a commodity that helps some people live because of personal medical issues. Now that is immoral socialist progressive BS. The only reason I voted against that particular legislation was the tax issue alone.
@RodCornholio - I give the city by the bay a bit more credit than that. It's pretty good about tolerating eccentric and non-conforming people in general.
When you think about everything that's come out of this area -- the Summer of Love, the Free Speech Movement, Silicon Valley, Burning Man, the Medical Cannabis Movement, Craigslist, etc. -- there's clearly something happening right.
"blummedia" asks, "Could someone tell me what, if anything, in San Francisco is anything slightly Libertarian? Everything there is controlled by the government."
Here's a couple examples for you:
1. SF has a unique civilian review board to hear complaints about the SFPD - columbia.edu/itc/journalism/cases/katrina/Human%20Rights%20Watch/uspohtml/uspo132.htm
2. SF has what one paper called "the best local sunshine law in the country" - sfbg.com/39/23/cover_foi_secret_government.html
JFYI Che Guevara would redistribute all the wealth: exactly what libertarians’ do not even like to tack about. The land is for those who work the land, not for a rich person who rents you to enslave you and control you.
The slogan is: Tierra y Libertad!!
You only ask for libertad to own and control with no government intervention
... Hypocrisy: that is freedom for the rich, slavery for the poor :-(
@RodCornholio ...I do, partly, so him mentioning CHE, help me make my point: redistribution of wealth accumulated by perversions of the system. The means of production should be for those who use them (the land is from the farmers, not form a WallStreet/Corporation/Investors, to rent them and have those who labor/work in permanent dept), only the wealth of your job should be property, never to be rented to control others labor or wills
I'm sorry I have to tell you this, but you should ban users who make comments on your videos advocating for murder of people based on their political beleifs.
sewbuttns 4 months ago
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Che’s radicalism was spawned from living in Guatemala during the 1953 overthrow of Jacobo Arbenz by the CIA at the behest of the United Fruit Company (those lovely capitalists who liked to kill brown Central Americans so Americans could have cheap bananas).
Che saw the brutality of U$ Imperialism up close, and gave his life in Bolivia to defeat it. Che fought 3 U.S.-backed dictators during his life (Batista, Mobutu, Barrientos).
History may not ever see such a brave man again. VIVA CHE!!
4Barbudos 5 months ago
I don't see how a philosophy that appeals mainly to rich firstworlders can have the same appeal that Che did to the poor. Maybe there's something heroic about cutting taxes for the top 1% and gutting services for the working class that I'm missing out on.
Mantis42 11 months ago
Julian Assange is the perhaps the closest thing we have to someone who personifies to the world the brave, noble, revolutionary spirit that people who admire Che Guevera think they see in him (not realizing Guevara was in real life a cruel executioner and bumbling soldier).
Like all of us Assange no doubt has his flaws, but he's got a long way to sink before descending to Guevara's level. Meanwhile, his story to date has been such that he could well become a "Che-like" libertarian icon.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
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StarchildSF 1 year ago
Wow, interesting to stumble on this vigorous conversation about what I said -- or rather, didn't say. (Admittedly, I didn't expand on my Che Guevara comment as much as I should have, and the headline of the video sheds more heat than light on it. But who am I to complain if it attracts more viewers?) I didn't explicitly make the caveat, as I did in mentioning the Black Panthers, that I was not endorsing their ideology. Should have said ditto for Che. Absolutely he was a cold-blooded murderer.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
This is stupid...Starchild??? give me a break. Dude, grow up, get off the hippy clothes and cut your hair and perhaps you might be taken seriously. This is an extremely poor angle to take while trying to get people to listen to you.
megadrummer2 1 year ago
In response to commenter "megadrummer2", who's worried I might be taken seriously, and wants to give me fashion and wardrobe advice, etc.
My experience is that people who address me as "dude" usually seem to be trying to establish their own "manliness" and/or "coolness". One good friend is a noted exception (Hey Morey!)
As for the fashion/wardrobe advice, no one who makes anonymous comments from behind a computer screen can possibly expect me to take THEM seriously in such matters.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
Considering how Starchild speaks highly of Mary Ruwart's "gentle" approach to promoting libertarianism, the title of this video is quite misleading. Why would the libertarian movement want, much less need, a murderous thug like Che Guevara as a leader? This would be a fundamental violation of the non-coercion principle at the core of libertarianism.
rickinchvilleva 1 year ago
@rickinchvilleva - Agreed. I was not speaking of Guevara the inmate-slaughtering prison warden, but of the *popular image* of Guevara, based on his carefully cultivated "guerilla hero" persona, along with the famous image which enchants many, of him gazing nobly into the distance. Of course the image is as fake as his rep -- in the original photo, Ernesto ("Che" was a nickname) wears a more mundane look. My point was the freedom movement needs risk-takers able to inspire the popular imagination.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
Thanks for the unnecessary shirtless pic. Especially when I'm watching this on my lunch break at work.
schmij8 1 year ago 4
"schmij8" writes, "Thanks for the unnecessary shirtless pic. Especially when I'm watching this on my lunch break at work."
You're welcome! Pics & hugs are free. ;-)
But if you had anything to fear from your bosses or co-workers seeing you looking at a sexy photo, I'm sorry to have put you in a compromising position.
There's a YouTube-watching lesson there somewhere.
Hopefully the experience has at least made you newly aware of the prudish, sex-negative character of your workplace!
StarchildSF 1 year ago
Viva le revolution, Che Reagan!
dsmith6289 1 year ago
What a couple of creeps.
imrnlil 1 year ago
@imrnlil I could not agree more!! This is not my style of libertarianism.
DeviousTelevision 1 year ago
Anarcho Capitalism, The Philosophy Of Self Ownership
VigilantCanuck 1 year ago
The Only Solution: "Paleolibertarianism"
AgionOros888 1 year ago
Reason, can you show me "proof"(not that I don't believe you) where it states that Rothbard lived in Government rent controlled housing? Thank you.
Paulintheoh8 1 year ago
Don't we have the Statue printed on what looks like the gold standard whats with this Che bullshit
Darkwizzrobe 1 year ago
To evoke Che in any positive way = bad form. Hitler was also very charismatic why not evoke his persuasive ability over the people?
hydin1 1 year ago 9
@hydin1
why bad form? libertarianism = doctrine of free will. Che fought for the cause of self-determination of the 3rd world, can't really get much more free than that. yeah, his ideology was socialist/marxist, but it was in response to capitalist aggression.
libertarians are for freedom. che wanted 3rd world justice. hitler wanted an empire. the US is now the largest empire in history.
it's state vs human rights, not ideology my flag-hag friend, stop choking on the star spangled chode
shazzbarbaric 1 year ago
@shazzbarbaric Why bad form? The idea that a supposed enlightened person would invoke the memory of any psychopathic killer is abhorrent. Ah thats why. Che was a murderous thug no more. His only fight was focused on his own quest for power. Do what thou wilt, is the whole of the law. Is that what you consider libertarianism? Because if it is, you seriously lack understanding. Che is the embodiment of everything libertarianism stands against. Socialism always ends in death camps.
hydin1 1 year ago
@hydin1
I'll try to tone down both my own as well as your rhetoric. "supposed enlightened" is a passive aggressive insult, "psychopathic killer" is subjective, as well as "murderous thug" and a "quest for power." "Do what thou wilt" is a straw man, which you create and then tear down. And of course you end with the death camps. You're obviously an emotional person, which isn't a bad thing. No Che/Socialism, I get that. But in the real world you have to back your shit up or you're just a troll.
shazzbarbaric 1 year ago
@shazzbarbaric Psychopathic killer is subjective! Lets use your sophistry, Che fought for self determination of the 3rd world, I believe thats delusional, back that shit up, or you are just a troll? The only way my statements can be considered a straw man argument, is for both of us to know that what I am saying is true. I dont know what you think, you have some very ignorant view of Che, so there is no straw man.
Your tactic is changing the subject, because your argument is weak.
hydin1 1 year ago
@hydin1
man, i just checked out your youtube page and i'm not really sure what to say. i don't know if i can have a rational conversation with someone who's sitting on the gipper's imperialist cock. you want to talk about a psychopathic killer with a way with words...Ronny commanded genocide up and down latin america. but i guess in your world it doesn't count if they're "on our side". are you really 42 yrs old?... and are you literate? read books? you've been conned by the american empire dood
shazzbarbaric 1 year ago
@shazzbarbaric I'm glad you enjoyed my page. I know you dont have an argument, and so do you. You do seem to be fascinated with homosexual references, I wonder what Freud would say. Ron commanded genocide in Latin America, and was he riding a unicorn or a dragon? I looked at your page and found it, a little busy, and very colorful, maybe your missing out. You should take a trip to a bath house and find out if all of those cock references mean anything, I think they just might.
hydin1 1 year ago
@hydin1 man i'm not afraid of the cock. total freedom man, sexual drug preference color creed etc. my ethical system isn't based on one rule for people like me and another for the "others," "outcasts," "sinners" or "non-americans." the sexual metaphors are strong language to illustrate your submission to dogmatic assumptions. Ronny was a corp propagandist, worked propaganda thru WWII and on into film. then he was hired to shill corporate agenda from the white house. and yeah my page is shit
shazzbarbaric 1 year ago
@hydin1 if you're sincere then i like you man, you're just ignorant. if you're sincere you'll figure it out, with my help or others. can't hold back the truth. yes, international corps have made and continue to make "a killing" in the banana republics of latin america, backwards countries that reagan and others helped to keep oppressed. right now they talk about the "el salvador option" in iraq. you know what that means? instigating a civil war. say what you want about che he never was that cold
shazzbarbaric 1 year ago
@shazzbarbaric On your page you say you are a writer, anything I may have read. Are you published, or are you just a would be writer? I can see by your vernacular and form you must be very well regarded. I am humbled that I have had an opportunity to engage someone of your caliber. Upper east side, little red school house, pack a day, wantabe, huh. Well here's 3 finger snaps for you. Being smart, dont make you right, it highlights ignorance.
hydin1 1 year ago
@shazzbarbaric - Very well said. Todays it matters less whether someone is "left" or "right", "liberal" or "conservative", than whether they are for individual freedom (libertarian) or government control (statist).
The fact that Che Guevara is widely *perceived* as having fought for social justice in the Third World, even if what he *actually* did was help oppress people and promote a murderous ideology, is what makes his myth potent. The justice-seeking hero is a powerful archetype.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
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StarchildSF 1 year ago
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As noted in another post, I was not speaking of Guevara the inmate-slaughtering prison warden, but of the *popular image* of Guevara, based on his carefully cultivated "guerilla hero" persona, along with the famous image which enchants many, of him gazing nobly into the distance. Of course the image is as fake as his rep -- in the original photo Ernesto ("Che" was a nickname) wears a more mundane look. My point was the freedom movement needs risk-takers able to inspire the popular imagination.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
@hydin1 Because Hitler was genocidal fuck.
MaoistRebelNews2 1 year ago
@MaoistRebelNews2 And your point is what, Che wasn't? how interesting. History is always written by the victors. huh. Are you a pretend revolutionary, trying to pick up chicks with your dapper attire? Grow up, stop playing D&D and get a job. The real world awaits.
hydin1 1 year ago
@hydin1 so deny deny deny, childish insult. that's your come back basically?
MaoistRebelNews2 1 year ago
@MaoistRebelNews2 Che was no humanist. Your repugnant admiration for a murderer is unintelligible. Evil is evil no matter what sprigs from it., and in this case nothing did.
hydin1 1 year ago
@hydin1
Conflating Che with Hitler is beyond moronic.
Conflating the antidemocratic CIA that killed him with the stormtroopers--more like it.
thirdshift47 10 months ago
@thirdshift47 So let me see if I understand. Che can kill and murder in the name of revolution for Marxist communist doctrine, and thats OK. A philosophy that murdered around 150 million people this last century. The USA sending in the CIA to kill this guy is fascistic because you think so. you must not understand that Nazi are, where socialists. Not only should the CIA have killed him, they still should be killing communists in Latin America. Communist are like cockroaches.
hydin1 10 months ago
@hydin1
If you want to speak of ideology & death then lets go back as far as the founding of the Americas & the for-profit ideology that thrived on brutal chattel slavery,indentured servitude,child labor,15 hour-a-day wage slavery,vassalage & the genocide of the indigenous people of those regions,much less what's followed since.
Secondly,anyone who actually believes that the Russian Communist Party & the Nazis were socialists are perfect success stories for those regimes propaganda campaigns.
thirdshift47 10 months ago
@thirdshift47 Wow, next you will start talking about the crusades. Yes the Communists and the Nazi's where socialists. I understand they didn't teach you this in class, it doesn't fit the meme propagated by your socialists professors. Most if not all of the differences between these two groups is semantics's only. If you believe there is some meaningful difference between the two you are correct at least on one point. The socialist propaganda works.
hydin1 10 months ago
@hydin1
Crusades?
What the fuck?
Look,debunking your pseudo-history filtered through cold war propoganda would barely be a challenge for third-graders,much less grown ups with some sense.
But I agree;there were primarily rhetorical differences between the corporate radicalism of Stalin and Hitler's regimes.
thirdshift47 10 months ago
@thirdshift47
thirdshift47 10 months ago
The interviewer must have his head in a dark place. San Francisco as a well run city?
It is the Nanny State world capital and the public employee unions are so strong they have placed the city tens of billions of dollars in the red with unfunded liabilities for healthcare and pensions that can never be paid.
heyoehkah 1 year ago 2
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Ron Paul 2012!
Ohyeahbaybay 1 year ago
Libertarians, the wave of the future!
TheToxicRadio 1 year ago 16
@TheToxicRadio LOL just as they have been for 50 years eh? One thing for sure, Libertarians love fantacy, but they are wrong about history, economics and political reality.
lizardgizard2002 1 year ago
Che the child killer is an empirical & precise definition of a Marxist sadist imbecile. YOU should read, if U do, BEFORE you spout your sickening Che love. No, really. Colonel Robert Neville blogspot com. zombietime com thepeoplescube com therealcuba com che mart com babalublog com PJTV com lookingattheleft com dissectleft blogspot com breitbart com michellemalkin com steynonline com iowahawk typepad com Tim Blair blog Andrew Bolt blog jihadwatch org bestobamafacts com commiebuster com
gmakepiece 1 year ago
If only you people were as zealous about the rest of it as you were about putting the f-word out there. We'd actually be getting somewhere. Good grief.
tjttzcspplt 1 year ago
OK, I'm not the only one who finds the idea of a Libertarian "Che" pretty @(#$ silly.
Why not a Libertarian Elvis? A Libertarian "anyone who hasn't executed thousands of innocent people in the name of marxist revolution, or centralized a once-thriving economy and sent it into ruin, or once planned to blow up Macy's in NYC during thanksgiving"?
I mean, come on. We don't need a libertarian Cult of Personality.
ceounicom 1 year ago
"Libertarians" should call themselves Libertyians, because most Libertarians around the world are Lefty fucktards.
BabelOn4infinity 1 year ago
Libertarians are enimies of the people.
lizardgizard2002 1 year ago
@lizardgizard2002
Yeah freedom sucks eh?
audiohi 1 year ago
@audiohi No, Libertarians suck.
lizardgizard2002 1 year ago
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spyletu 1 year ago
@lizardgizard2002 of course it does.. it teaches people how to walk on their own two feet and not ride the arm crutches of others to success like so many of your better-off-dead fellow baby-boomers, who now beg for help from young people to pay for retirement after riding the states to ruination away from anything remotely libertarian (constant wars? massive deficit spending?) .. doesn't that just fly right in your face. they suck indeed. you need to learn how to beg better tho. no cookies.
spyletu 1 year ago
@spyletu LOL a mental case raises his ugly head. You have no logic at all, just teabagger ranting. Let me know if you ever have something intelligent to say. I doubt it though. Now give your mama's puter back and get out of the basement.
lizardgizard2002 1 year ago
@lizardgizard2002 - Sucking is good, have you never experienced it? Feel free to look me up if you come to SF and want to spend some money. Hopefully "lizardgizard" is not your real name, but as a libertarian I respect your right to it if it is. ;-)
StarchildSF 1 year ago
Don't use the word che fucking right wing "libertarians"!
B190489 1 year ago
A libertarian marxist maks about as much sense as a zionist nazi.
dalmatian847 1 year ago
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i thought we got rid of the Marxist hippies out of the libertarian movement
blist14ant 1 year ago
i thought we got rid of the marxist hippies out of the libertarian movement
blist14ant 1 year ago
@blist14ant Good fucking luck. Most libertarians world wide are Libertarian Socialists. Get out of our movement, landlordist.
spinalglacier 1 year ago
libertarians are more right then left
blist14ant 1 year ago
Maybe he could use a butterfly as an icon but it's his decision. I just think using a butcher isn't very friendly. But someone running a porn site isn't into thinking too deeply.
cloudberry121 1 year ago
@cloudberry121 - I'm sorry to hear you have found porn to be incompatible with deep thought. Perhaps if you watch more of it, you will in time gain the ability to enjoy it without having your mental processes derailed.
In the meantime, please for your own safety and that of others, do not operate a motor vehicle or heavy machinery around people you find sexy.
P.S. - Sometimes I do use a butterfly as an icon, you might say! :-)
StarchildSF 1 year ago
@StarchildSF
Nah. Same thing over and over again. Not for me. I could see him using Che as an icon if he were producing stuff films.
cloudberry121 1 year ago
Silly ass name
johnnyreality 1 year ago
The Libertarian movement needs a mass murderer?
thequietkid10 1 year ago
@thequietkid10 you should educate yourself, Che wasn´t a mass murderer
johnnyreality 1 year ago
Double the chances of a date on Saturday night? But double from zero is still zero... Forever alone.
ObedientMasses 1 year ago
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Che Guevera was a mass murderer... are libertarians murderers too? What next? Do you need a libertarian Hitler?
With an irresponsible statement like this, you shouldnt be elected to anything.
electer1776 1 year ago
Che Guevera was a mass murderer... are libertarians murderers too? What next? Do you need a libertarian Hitler?
With an irresponsible statement like this, you shouldnt be elected to anything.
electer1776 1 year ago
@electer1776 He ment a iconic figure of the same magnitude, not a mass murderer.
TheProgressistViewer 1 year ago
@TheProgressistViewer Don't you think picking Che as an icon is a bad choice? Why not Hitler? Non-Jews in Germany just LOVED him.
electer1776 1 year ago
@TheProgressistViewer Logical fallacy balls. Che child killer Guevara was a Marxist Stalinist totalitarian who wanted to replace ALL free market democracies with Stalinist Communist fascist states. DEAD Che was a narcissist sadist coward drop out parasite dumbassgross incompetent uber square who hated "long hairs" rockers gays & anyone who opposed him. therealcuba com che mart com zombietime com thepeoplescube com babalublog com hfontovas com lookingattheleft com dissectleft blogspot com
gmakepiece 1 year ago
@gmakepiece AGAIN, I fucking hate Guevara, I know what he was, the point Starchild was making is we need an iconic figure, not a marxist one, but a libertarian...
TheProgressistViewer 1 year ago
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@TheProgressistViewer Er, riiight, but clearly U don't despise or understand the repellent Marxist sadist & imbecile Che the child killer ENOUGH. No, really. Colonel Robert Neville blogspot com. zombietime com thepeoplescube com therealcuba com che mart com babalublog com PJTV com lookingattheleft com dissectleft blogspot com breitbart com michellemalkin com steynonline com iowahawk typepad com Tim Blair blog Andrew Bolt blog jihadwatch org bestobamafacts com commiebuster com
gmakepiece 1 year ago
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Colonel Robert Neville blogspot com. zombietime com thepeoplescube com therealcuba com che mart com babalublog com PJTV com lookingattheleft com dissectleft blogspot com breitbart com michellemalkin com steynonline com iowahawk typepad com Tim Blair blog Andrew Bolt blog jihadwatch org bestobamafacts com commiebuster com
gmakepiece 1 year ago
@TheProgressistViewer Er, riiight. Clearly you don't despise or understand the repellent Marxist sadist & imbecile Che the child killer, ENOUGH. No, really.
gmakepiece 1 year ago
@electer1776 educate yourself, Che was not a mass murderer, read before you speak
johnnyreality 1 year ago
@johnnyreality
Che was absolutely a butcher. Don't laud him around Cubans, you'll make them very angry with you.
cloudberry121 1 year ago
@johnnyreality Logical fallacy balls. Che child killer Guevara was a Marxist Stalinist totalitarian who wanted to replace ALL free market democracies with Stalinist Communist fascist states. DEAD Che was a narcissist sadist coward drop out parasite dumbassgross incompetent uber square who hated "long hairs" rockers gays & anyone who opposed him. therealcuba com che mart com zombietime com thepeoplescube com babalublog com hfontovas com lookingattheleft com dissectleft blogspot com
gmakepiece 1 year ago
@gmakepiece child killer? you need to read before you write.
johnnyreality 1 year ago
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@johnnyrealityJohnnyunreality, yep, Che the child killer is an empirical & precise definition. YOU should read, if U do, BEFORE you spout your sickening Che love. No, really. Colonel Robert Neville blogspot com. zombietime com thepeoplescube com therealcuba com che mart com babalublog com PJTV com lookingattheleft com dissectleft blogspot com breitbart com michellemalkin com steynonline com iowahawk typepad com Tim Blair blog Andrew Bolt blog jihadwatch org bestobamafacts com commiebuster com
gmakepiece 1 year ago
@electer1776 - A few others posting here understood what I was getting at in the video (not super articulately, I admit). Why don't you read some more of the responses, or see my clarification in another post.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
I met star child at a libertarian convention. Just a stand up guy. Fun to be around.
andrewclunn 1 year ago 3
@andrewclunn - Thanks, Andrew! :-)
StarchildSF 1 year ago
All I can say is: keep trotting out the anti-traffic law man-whores for school boards, libertarians!!!1!1!!
ageinGamer 1 year ago
"ageinGamer" writes, using too many exclamation points, "All I can say is: keep trotting out the anti-traffic law man-whores for school boards, libertarians."
If I were to reply in kind, I'd say, "Keep trotting out the narrow-minded, conformist, puritans, conservatives." But I realize that in reality, conservatives as a movement have no more control over what you do than libertarians as a movement have over what I do.
So you have no one to blame for my running for school board but me.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
@StarchildSF Look, libertarianism is not going to get its 'Che' without being a little image-conscious. Politics might not be the right venue for someone scared of conformists...
ageinGamer 1 year ago
"ageinGamer" writes, "Look, libertarianism is not going to get its 'Che' without being a little image-conscious. Politics might not be the right venue for someone scared of conformists."
Move to divide the question (sorry, I've caught some Roberts Rules of Order at LP conventions!) :-) I don't believe one must be image-conscious in order to act heroically by taking bold risks for a noble cause. Developing iconic potential into Che-like appeal may take some image-consciousness however.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
Holy crap that title derailed a lot of people... geez
enotdetcelfer 1 year ago
We need more of a group of libertarians who actually want to promote change, rather than talk about it and rationalize their apathetic tendencies.
LiberalCast 1 year ago
Starchild? Get a real fucking name hippie.
GTRrocker666 1 year ago
@GTRrocker666 amen, brother! stupid asshole doesn't know what he's talking about?
throwntomato 1 year ago
@GTRrocker666 hippies fuckin piss me off
democratsdid9ll 1 year ago
@democratsdid9ll - Bummer for you -- they often *get* me off. It's a much better experience than being pissed off.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
@StarchildSF Hippies are evil racist KKK nazi communist globalist new world order bastards. If that's what gets you off then you're a disgusting person.
democratsdid9ll 1 year ago
@StarchildSF There's nothing enchanting about the left. They are racists and slavers.
democratsdid9ll 1 year ago
@StarchildSF Leftists never told the truth once, ever. That's how they control and manipulate the masses. Along with their cultural Marxism and racist agenda.
democratsdid9ll 1 year ago
i thought he was going to be a "liberal" winer but i was suprised someone from San Fransisco thats not completely politically retarded, i agree with fitobcnfito he means the political opposite of Che, Che was a racist murderous evil man,
theygunaHATEME 1 year ago 2
"erotic services provider." that is funny. Good interview though.
pinegrove33 1 year ago 2
Great interview. I think Starchild misses on one point, though: when asked why "The Left" resists libertarianism so much, he puts the burden on libertarians. What he demonstrates, while leaving it unsaid, is that "The Left" reject anyone who doesn't believe in bigger government.
Big kudos to Starchild for celebrating ideology; we should all choose our ideology and be stalwart advocates for it.
NHindividualist 1 year ago
@NHindividualist
Yes, "The Left" rejects anyone who doesn't believe in bigger government. Well, aside from Anarchists, council communists, libertarian socialists, etc.
jazzsexsoup 1 year ago
"NHindividualist" writes, "Great interview. I think Starchild misses on one point, though: when asked why 'The Left' resists libertarianism so much, he puts the burden on libertarians. What he demonstrates, while leaving it unsaid, is that 'The Left' reject anyone who doesn't believe in bigger government."
Tempting to believe that, from a partisan perspective, but I don't think it's so simple. I just finished reading (well, listening to) "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera...
StarchildSF 1 year ago
...Kundera has some interesting ideas about something he calls "kitsch". By this he doesn't mean Pez dispensers or colored Xmas lights. He uses the term in what he says is the original German sense, to mean kind of a meta-idea, that derives from our "agreement" to live, and to reject that which is not life (that part of it sounds almost Objectivist).
Since opinions vary on what is the basis for being, he says, there are various kitsches. He names a few, then describes leftist kitsch...
StarchildSF 1 year ago
..."Since the days of the French Revolution, one half of Europe has been referred to as the Left, the other half as the Right. Yet to define one or the other by means of the theoretical principles it professes, is all but impossible. And no wonder – political movements rest not so much on rational attitudes, as on the fantasies, images, words, and archetypes that come together to make up this or that political kitsch."...
StarchildSF 1 year ago
The political kitsch joining leftists of all times and tendencies, according to Kundera is what he calls The Grand March, and defines as "the splendid march on the road to brotherhood, equality, justice. He says this kitsch can manifest in contradictory ideas at different times: "The dictatorship of the proletariat -- or democracy. Rejection of the consumer society -- or demands for increased productivity. The guillotine – or an end to the death penalty." ...
StarchildSF 1 year ago
..."What makes a leftist a leftist is not this or that theory," Milan Kundera says, "but his ability to integrate any theory into the kitsch called the Grand March.”
If this is true, it suggests that libertarians can win the allegiance of many on the left by supplying a theory that fits the narrative of the "Grand March" toward justice and equality better than the current politics of the left. This is a less daunting task than it might seem, because the left has largely sold out its ideals.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
You are not going to see Libertarian mass movements in the third world. The poor of the world aren't going to organize to passionately embrace a system that has kept them in poverty. Do you honestly expect hundreds of thousands Guatemalan peasants to march for free markets and privatizations? The idea is ludicrous.
The Right has always represented the interests of the upper-class, not the oppressed or underprivileged. This won't change.
jazzsexsoup 1 year ago
@jazzsexsoup - I recommend to you the book "The Other Path" by Hernando de Soto. Quite arguably, proto-libertarian mass movements of a sort already *are* taking place in the Third World.
I'm talking about what de Soto calls the "informal economy" in Lima, Peru, the city that is the main focus of his book, and what you might call the "black market" if you are from the United States.
De Soto fascinatingly describes how squatters and vendors occupy public land and space in defiance of the State.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
@jazzsexsoup - I can imagine hundreds of thousands of Guatemalan peasants marching to demand legal title to the government lands (or lands given as large land grants to private holders by corrupt governments) they live on. Security of land titles, along with recognizing informal businesses as legal, are two of the major reforms recommended by De Soto and other libertarians who have studied developing countries.
P.S. - Libertarians ≠ "the Right" or "the Left". Do a web search for "Nolan Chart".
StarchildSF 1 year ago
@StarchildSF
Are you advocating agrarian reform? That doesn't seem to be a Libertarian position.
It's funny that we're discussing Che and agrarian reform in Guatemala. Jacobo Arbenz, a progressive Guatemalan president, implemented a series of mild land reforms in the early 1950's and was almost immediately thrown out of office in a US orchestrated coup.
Che was in Guatemala during the coup (capitalist reaction). He was deeply moved by the event, and vowed that it wouldn't happen in Cuba.
jazzsexsoup 1 year ago
@jazzsexsoup - Georgism/geo-libertarianism is not yet a mainstream libertarian position, but I think support for it in the freedom movement is growing. Especially in developing countries there is an urgent need for land reform to overturn corrupt State grants of "private property" to wealthy interests.
Leftists should also recognize that the actions of the U.S. government, large corporations, etc., often bear little relation to real free markets or anything libertarianism stands for.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
@StarchildSF
I am opposed to both existing capitalism and theoretical laissez-faire capitalism. I would like to see a world that isn't a miserable, dog eat dog competition.
jazzsexsoup 1 year ago
@jazzsexsoup - Understood. But I think intellectual honesty should compel you to recognize and be frank about the fact that what exists in countries like the U.S. today, which I would not even call capitalism (unless by "capitalism" you simply mean the accumulation of capital), bears no more resemblance to the libertarian ideal than what exists in countries like Cuba and North Korea does to the socialist or communist ideal. FWIW, I don't want a world of miserable dog-eat-dog competition either.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
@StarchildSF
I acknowledge that laissez faire capitalism doesn't exist in America, but I also feel that it probably couldn't exist anywhere for a long period of time. Capitalists will inevitably capture the state to use for their own interests.
Can you point to a country that has had "actual capitalism" at any time? Cuba doesn't represent socialism to me, but I can point to a number of societies throughout history that practiced socialism.
jazzsexsoup 1 year ago
@jazzsexsoup writes, "Can you point to a country that has had 'actual capitalism' at any time? Cuba doesn't represent socialism to me, but I can point to a number of societies throughout history that practiced socialism."
People all over the world engage in purely capitalist transactions every day. Any exchange of money for goods or services that takes place in the black market without government interference is laissez-faire at work. Unlicensed taxis, vendors, babysitters, garage sales, etc.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
@StarchildSF
I was asking for a society or nation as an example, not isolated transactions.
I can point to Anarchist Catalonia and the Paris Commune as great examples of socialism in action; can you do the same with laissez-faire capitalism?
jazzsexsoup 1 year ago
When the state or individuals acting on behalf of the powerful kill soldiers in war it is generally perceived to be legitimate, but when powerless, non-state actors kill soldiers in war it's often perceived to be a heinous act of murder. The same attitude can be seen when watching news reports on clashes between protesters and police.
“I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed an innocent.” — Jon Lee Anderson, author of definitive Che biography.
jazzsexsoup 1 year ago
@jazzsexsoup Jon Lee Anderson is probably helping OJ find his wife's killer. Che was a butcher, that's why Castro loved him so.
MojaveMark 1 year ago
@MojaveMark
Inform me of the butchery. The vast majority of people who curse Che as a butcher don't really care about his actions, they simply oppose his politics. When an American soldier kills an enemy combatant in battle they view it as legitimate, but when a leftist guerrilla kills an enemy combatant in battle they see it as a unspeakable crime.
jazzsexsoup 1 year ago
@jazzsexsoup - Are you, as (I presume) a leftist, *defending* the execution of prisoners of war? That's what Guevara did -- he executed lots of "enemy combatants" he was holding as prisoners. Since they were mostly officers and partisans of the former regime, I suppose you could say they weren't "innocent". But that's a pretty weak basis on which to defend Che's murders.
I hope for the sake of your consistency/credibility you were not one of the folks criticizing George Bush over waterboarding!
StarchildSF 1 year ago
Communists like Che Guevara, because they are in such short supply for heros.
oilhammer04 1 year ago
Who is Ron Paul? Reason still hasn't asked this question.
BanjonotBenjo 1 year ago
erotic service provider? he gives handjobs for a living and he wants on the school board?
only in san fransisco
YutubeBlows 1 year ago
"YouTubeBlows" -- Remember that nickname when you read his/her comment -- writes, "erotic service provider? he gives handjobs for a living and he wants on the school board? only in san fransisco."
Thanks for that, "YouTubeBlows". It's comments like yours that make me proud to live in SF! If you ever have the courage to publicly own the handle you have chosen, and also decide you would like to run for school board, come to San Francisco -- I hope you'll get the un-bigoted reception I did.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
@StarchildSF lol wow Are you the guy in the video? It sure is a disappointment that Reason would interview someone so petty that they'd go into the comments section and distorts peoples words so that he can call them cowards and bigots. Obviously, being an erotic service provider doesn't offer any kind of experience or qualifications for serving on school board.
btw, if I go to San Francisco do I have to lose my sense of humor or does that will that just naturally erode over time?
YutubeBlows 1 year ago
@YutubeBlows - I have yet to see evidence you *have* a sense of humor (mean-spirited mockery ≠ humor) but no, SF is hardly a humorless place. Where else can you take part in an outdoor public pillow fight, or a marathon where people dressed as salmon run in the opposite direction as the crowd ("swim upstream")?
My run for school board, however, was serious. If you're not bigoted against sex workers, I retract any implication to the contrary. I just found your comment ironic, given your handle.
StarchildSF 1 year ago 2
Sorry but this guy didn't make his point at all. This is what happens when Liberals become disillusioned with their political party and decide to become libertarians thinking it's just another "open-minded" group. I've met way too many Liberal Progressives at C4L events then I care to remember. They hear us speak out against Bush and think we're on their side. It's that sheeple nature that led them to be Leftists in the 1st place. They hear "free health care" and think - great idea!
thomaserossi 1 year ago
@thomaserossi Don't you realize that libertarianism began as a socialist workers movement? Don't you realize that Thoreau was a left-libertarian? Don't you realize there are many kinds of liberals: anarchists, anarcho-syndicalists, civil libertarians, populists, progressives, and on and on? Even early Americans like Jefferson and Adam Smith had liberal views about many things.
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
@thomaserossi I'm more of a Republican and they heard me speak against Bush the whole time he was in, but I also always pointed out that Clinton-KKK was and is much worse, and that the next Dem president would also be much worse than Bush as well.They assumed this was a mandate for communism and voted for CHANGE to end America and set up Bush's commie new world order.Now whenever I complain about Obama they say "Where were you when Bush was in?" To which I say, you're the communist! You're Bush.
democratsdid9ll 1 year ago
@democratsdid9ll I'm not anything in particular, but I am an equal opportunity skeptic. If you were as critical of Bush as you are critical of Obama, then you have my respect. My defense of left-libertarianism isn't that I'd necessarily label myself such but that it's probably the most appealing worldview to me. Maybe it's because I read Thoreau when younger and he had a lot of influence on my earliest thinking. Despite (or b/c of) my left-leaning, I didn't vote for & have been critical of Obama
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
@MarmaladeINFP Thoreau was not a left-libertarian.
erwinthehamsandwich 1 year ago
@erwinthehamsandwich I've previously made an argument for Thoreau being a left-libertarian (see link below), but of course you are free to try to make a counter-argument.
benjamindavidsteele.wordpress. com/2010/08/30/henry-david-thoreau-founding-father-of-american-libertarian-thought-by-jeff-riggenbach/
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
Starchild is so cool!
I remember seeing him dressed as the statue of liberty at an LP convention! :)
He lacked credentials, and I remember happily joining the majority when it welcomed him in to the ranks of the voting...
freesk8 1 year ago
"freesk8" writes, "Starchild is so cool! I remember seeing him dressed as the statue of liberty at an LP convention! :) He lacked credentials, and I remember happily joining the majority when it welcomed him in to the ranks of the voting."
Thanks for your kind words. That would have been the party's 2006 national convention in Portland, when Aaron Starr managed to get the voting procedure modified so that myself and a fellow SF activist were temporarily denied delegate status.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
Rothbard was both firey and stuck to his principles. I'll take him any day over a murderous thug.
An ideology based on individual rights isn't likely to gain the support of a socialist, which many on the left are. They do not see how the protecting the rights of an individual is protecting the rights of all.
strokjl 1 year ago
"strokjl" writes, "An ideology based on individual rights isn't likely to gain the support of a socialist, which many on the left are. They do not see how the protecting the rights of an individual is protecting the rights of all."
If anyone tells you he/she is a socialist, ask if they are a bottom-up socialist seeking to promote socialism as a voluntary choice, or a top-down socialist (statist) seeking to impose it on people via government coercion.
Libertarians are cool with the former.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
Let me get this straight: about a week ago, Reason TV gave the Nanny of the Year Award to the City of San Fransisco, then they interview a guy who says San Fransisco is "libertarian"?
realrockvince 1 year ago
"realrockvince" writes, "Let me get this straight: about a week ago, Reason TV gave the Nanny of the Year Award to the City of San Fransisco, then they interview a guy who says San Fransisco is 'libertarian'?"
Yup. And if/when you come to understand how it's possible for SF city government to have many characteristics of a "nanny state" and yet for the city to simultaneously be quite libertarian by U.S. standards in a cultural/social sense, you may gain some new insight into libertarianism.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
@StarchildSF If/when you understand what "Nanny State" means, you'll understand that it cannot also simultaneously mean "libertarian", smart ass.
realrockvince 1 year ago
"realrockvince" writes, "If/when you understand what 'Nanny State' means, you'll understand that it cannot also simultaneously mean 'libertarian', smart ass."
Okay, I admit I was too flip with you -- your surprise at Reason naming SF "Nanny of the Year" and then interviewing me talking about the city's libertarian qualities is understandable.
To clarify, SF is not one-dimensional. Consider -- the U.S. has the world's highest per capita incarceration rate, yet is rated as fairly free overall.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
um...ewww
ctk777 1 year ago
@iwustudent101 Che was a murderous racist bigoted thug....... nothing righteous about him, so why inject that name into the dialog? Especially after the Black Panther Party. Dr. Martin Luther King would have been a better choice based on his style of achieving his goals.
Could someone tell me what, if anything, in San Francisco is anything slightly Libertarian? Everything there is controlled by the government.
blummedia 1 year ago
@blummedia Dr. King didn't take control of the country and this dude was trying to suggest that we need a strong leader to step up for the Libertarian party in such a way that Libertarians take control of the country. It was still a horrible comparison. Maybe he's an infiltrator.
The black market is probably pretty Libertarian in SF; if only because it is by definition not controlled by the government. I say probably because I wouldn't be surprised if it really is controlled by the gov't.
CaptainLazerus 1 year ago 2
@CaptainLazerus Really? What history books did you read? He stood up in the face of death and conquered bigotry and racism..... have you heard of the Civil Rights Act? Then I was alive then and maybe you weren't.
Che was an immoral butcher and he practiced an immoral political philosophy.
blummedia 1 year ago
@blummedia Want to show me how free you think you are? Try advertising your name and Social Security Number on You Tube..... Did you know doing so invalidates that number? Or are you a slave to the man who branded you with that number? Thomas Jefferson didn't have a number... let us start by creating havoc in the system with that little step..... I'll tell you what, I'll go get my video equipment and let you know when I've done it, about a week from now..... cool?
blummedia 1 year ago
@CaptainLazerus I like your comment. But mentioning Che, when Che called blacks "indolent" was odd timing in light of the sequence on the video.
blummedia 1 year ago
@blummedia I can dig it. Che was terrible, no doubt, but he brought about sweeping and fundamental change to the governments he afflicted quickly. Dr. King was more focused on human rights and there are people today that debate if his dream is achieved yet.
I think starchild is angling for something fast and dramatic, not slow and manageable. Fast and dramatic usually comes with weapons and blood, and that's why I wonder if he's really a libertarian. Sounds more like he wants a revolt.
CaptainLazerus 1 year ago
@CaptainLazerus "Dream achieved"? You mean being treated equally like a human being? I think we're there, but I was raised by a black man so maybe I'm biased...... I remember the times we couldn't get a seat at DENNY's in the early 70s, because my mother was married to a black man and my brother is mixed..... thing is, a black man was one of the last managers at that Denny's until a couple years ago, when he passed away.
I understand the need for a dynamic leader... Che aint' it.
blummedia 1 year ago
@blummedia Well, you have a better perspective on that dream than me - but some people say it still is not achieved. I actually agree with you, but there are others that do not.
I'm not singing Che's praises here - I just pointed out that he was effective at achieving his movement's goals quickly and to a large degree.
What would a dynamic leader look like to you today? A priest, atheist, rich, poor, etc? I think of a stubborn, PO'd housewife that won't put up with the crap we see these days.
CaptainLazerus 1 year ago
"CaptainLazerus" writes, "I think starchild is angling for something fast and dramatic, not slow and manageable. Fast and dramatic usually comes with weapons and blood, and that's why I wonder if he's really a libertarian. Sounds more like he wants a revolt."
Yes, I *would* prefer something "fast and dramatic" over something "manageable". Too much "management" of public policy now. Freedom by nature is not very manageable. Fast and dramatic needn't mean bloody -- remember the Soviet collapse.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
@StarchildSF "The Soviet Collapse" would be better stated as "The Soviet Name-Change" as the same people are still running that country.
A rapid collapse would freak people out, and freaked out people tend to make bad decisions and look for leadership. That tends to lead to dictatorship. That's why fast and dramatic is a bad idea.
By "manageable" I meant that the individual people would manage the change - not a central authority. Simply ignoring the state would suffice for this change.
CaptainLazerus 1 year ago
@blummedia San Francisco is pretty lenient regarding sex, drugs, and rock'nroll. That's about it.
RodCornholio 1 year ago
@RodCornholio I hear what you're saying but they wanted to "Legalize" Marijuana to TAX IT!. Not very Libertarian if you ask me...... they are willing to tax a commodity that helps some people live because of personal medical issues. Now that is immoral socialist progressive BS. The only reason I voted against that particular legislation was the tax issue alone.
blummedia 1 year ago
@RodCornholio - I give the city by the bay a bit more credit than that. It's pretty good about tolerating eccentric and non-conforming people in general.
When you think about everything that's come out of this area -- the Summer of Love, the Free Speech Movement, Silicon Valley, Burning Man, the Medical Cannabis Movement, Craigslist, etc. -- there's clearly something happening right.
StarchildSF 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"blummedia" asks, "Could someone tell me what, if anything, in San Francisco is anything slightly Libertarian? Everything there is controlled by the government."
Here's a couple examples for you:
1. SF has a unique civilian review board to hear complaints about the SFPD - columbia.edu/itc/journalism/cases/katrina/Human%20Rights%20Watch/uspohtml/uspo132.htm
2. SF has what one paper called "the best local sunshine law in the country" - sfbg.com/39/23/cover_foi_secret_government.html
StarchildSF 1 year ago
JFYI Che Guevara would redistribute all the wealth: exactly what libertarians’ do not even like to tack about. The land is for those who work the land, not for a rich person who rents you to enslave you and control you.
The slogan is: Tierra y Libertad!!
You only ask for libertad to own and control with no government intervention
... Hypocrisy: that is freedom for the rich, slavery for the poor :-(
fitobcnfito 1 year ago
@fitobcnfito Starchild wasn't referring to Che's IDEOLOGY, but just his charisma and ability to motivate & organize the masses; his leadership.
RodCornholio 1 year ago 26
@RodCornholio ...I do, partly, so him mentioning CHE, help me make my point: redistribution of wealth accumulated by perversions of the system. The means of production should be for those who use them (the land is from the farmers, not form a WallStreet/Corporation/Investors, to rent them and have those who labor/work in permanent dept), only the wealth of your job should be property, never to be rented to control others labor or wills
Bad choice of references, by a conservative ;-D
fitobcnfito 1 year ago
@RodCornholio ..and his ability to murder political dissidents. Yeah, that's the kind of guy that's needed.
I don't think you can isolate the two. Hitler had tremendous charisma as well and had an ability to organize and motivate the masses as well.
dalmatian847 1 year ago