Suffering and Spiritual Growth Part 1

[hellion999]

Look in the old testament and you will see why. Condoning slavery, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, and murder on a mass scale just to name a few. Also so many wars fought for this supposedly all powerful and all knowing ruler of the universe.

[hellion999]

So what evidence do you think there is for the existence of god? I have heard the circular argument that god made the bible and the bible says he's real. I've also heard the first cause of the first cause when people try to disprove the big bang theory but if it were true wouldn't god have to have a first cause? Well tell me what evidence you think there is, and I will tell you if it's solid enough to convince me. By the way even if god was real I wouldn't worship him.

[4thstreetstudycenter]

Your last comment here says it all. No point in my answering. Thanks for your honesty though. Now, you should start being honest with yourself.

[hellion999]

I agree with Distortion. It is difficult to have a decent intellectual debate or conversation with a christian. Many I have met get angry when I start asking questions that they can't answer and they get all defensive.

[4thstreetstudycenter]

The same is true with a lot of non-Christians. I've seen agnostics and others bristle when the subject comes up many many times--even before any points are made.

[Distortion0]

Yes, I didn't at all mean to suggest that the only unreasonable people are christians. Only that I've met an overwhelming amount of christians who subscribe to alternative history, absurd supernatural claims (such as 'He's innocent of murder because he was supernaturally possessed at the time'), and use of extreme homonyms (ie: Legal marriage /=/ Religious Marriage).

[Distortion0]

This is why I can't have decent conversations with christians. "The same qualities will start to show up in our lives!" Really, you think you'll develop magical powers? REAL:Y? Straight from the horses mouth, religion is a secret plot to develop superpowers.

[4thstreetstudycenter]

If you saw prayer being answered, you'd say yes to this.

[Distortion0]

I've seen plenty of prayers by sick, suffering, pious people go ignored. Does that count for anything?

[4thstreetstudycenter]

We have no promise from God that he will spare us from the suffering inherent in a fallen world. So no, that wouldn't count for anything.

[Distortion0]

So god "is a loving god" but at the same time, does not give a damn about his creations. Meanwhile, when one improbably good event happens in the world, it suddenly excuses all the atrocities that happen on a daily basis.

[4thstreetstudycenter]

God is loving and just. Those who choose to reject him come under his justice, not his love. But his love means he came in Jesus and made that unnecessary.

But love doesn't mean God owes us anything.

I don't know what your last comment means.

[hellion999]

And the prayers getting answered don't count for anything either. Some perfectly healthy people drop dead for no apparent reason, because shit happens. The same when some one deathly ill recovers. I could be Atheist and still have the same chance to recover from the same illness with no prayers. I don't believe in a god because there is no evidence, there is no real use of a god besides a crutch to society because they are so afraid of dying they need to believe in something after death.

[4thstreetstudycenter]

Yes, Xians and atheists get sick and die at roughly the same rate. That's not the difference--God is not our butler sitting there to make our lives easy.

Evidence for God? Plenty of that. I suggest you read Xianity, the faith that makes sense by yours truly which gets into that whole quesiton.

[Distortion0]

If one person doesn't die from the plague, god's responsible for that. You call it an "answered prayer" and praise god. But if millions of others do die, this figure is suddenly not responsible, and you, as believers, completely ignore the suffering of these people. How does that make any sense? Either you're responsible for all human suffering, or none. You can't pick and choose.

[4thstreetstudycenter]

Biblical Christians (as opposed to traditional) believe in the uniformity of cause and effect in an open system. That means that most things are explained by cause and effect operating based on natural law. But we don't rule out the possibility of intrusion into this process by God. Naturalism teahces cause and effect in a closed system. So, naturalism sees all as the result of a machine-like system, while we see most, but not all things that way. Free will and answered prayer would be two.

[Distortion0]

Let's put this in human terms. Assume I have the ability to save all of the starving people in Uganda from famine, and I choose to save only one or two. Am I a good person for saving those one or two people, or am I a horrible person for not saving the millions people it would be well within my power to save? I would say I would be a horrible person if I did not use the full extent of my abilities to save everyone I could. Saving one or two people would not excuse me from saving the rest.

[4thstreetstudycenter]

By stripping the analogy of any moral content, you spin it into a humanitarian project. Under this picture, God needs to rescue the helpless starving human race. In fact, what we actually see is that God has offered salvation free of charge, but humans hate God and will do anything, even risk hell, rather than submit to his leadership.

[Distortion0]

Now assume in addition to the above, I also DEMAND, in order to receive food and the basic essentials of life, that the starving Uganda's submit to my every will. Am I a good person or a bad person?

[4thstreetstudycenter]

You would have no right to do that, as you are a man just like them. By posturing God as no different than humans, you make him seem unreasonable. But if he is the creator and sovereign, then if we rebel against his authority, how can we expect his protection from disaster? We want to make the decisions, but have him responsible for the outcome.

[Distortion0]

This is why god is dangerous. God himself is extramoral therefor his commands are extramoral, therefor, his followers perceive themselves as extramoral. The non-religious person believe that killing, theft, other violations are just inherently wrong, but the religious, they are the whim of a being whose mind can (and certainly has) changed over time.

[4thstreetstudycenter]

God is dangerous to those who want to fight him. No argument there.

Xians say wrong is based on God's nature. On the other hand, naturalists have no basis for saying anything is wrong. Killing a human is no different than killing a worm. They're all material objects. That's why your fellow-naturalists like Mao, Stalin, and Polpot have dwarfed all religious persecutors and slayers put together. Nobody can match the atheists for immorality.

[Distortion0]

Killing a human is wrong because we are humans, you idiot. We need other humans to survive. Any civilization or person that went about randomly killing humans within in their social group wouldn't survive long. I'd like to point out that both atheists and the religious do kill plenty of people today through war and neglect, we just don't make a big deal out of it.

[4thstreetstudycenter]

Lions kill other lions all the time. So do hyenas. They survive just fine, and both are in social groups.

[Distortion0]

Once again, they don't kill the animals in their social groups, neither do we. They kill the animals outside their social groups, so do we.

[4thstreetstudycenter]

Not true. Lions males kill the young fathered by others, and hyenas kill their brothers and sisters.

[Distortion0]

Mao drew from confuscian teachings ("Obey your father. Mao is your father. Obey Mao.") Stalin was the patron saint of Russian Catholics, "Mein Kampf" is an extremely religious novel, apparent to anyone whose actually opened it, and you, in spite of your claims to morality, would not give a shit about the lives of 1.7 million Cambodians if you weren't using their deaths to promote your agenda.

There are plenty of notable, good atheists, look them up. Meanwhile, we have much less crime than you.

[4thstreetstudycenter]

Absurd. It must be nice to create history they way you want it to be.

[Distortion0]

I want to point out that most of Stalin's fiercest opponents, the people who were the first and most opposed to him were atheists. Leon Trotsky is a great example of this, and to my knowledge Lenin and Marx were atheists and never went on a genocidal rampage.

Mao being confusciusist (even if he doesn't credit Confucius for his ideas) is pretty mainstream history. Any Chinese historian will tell he draws from Confucian roots.

[JIMMYguitar07]

GOD forbid i ever end up in your study center with something sharp, or something akin to an automatic weapon. GOD.FORBID.

[rjm1009]

religion is fake

[Distortion0]

Religion is an all too real delusion.

[amd7787]

Jesus is Lord. Thank you so much! God bless you!

[Originalqtruth]

I'm new to u-tube and I'm having a ball listening to christinianity related videos and commentaries thanks for your charity in sharing your best and welcome me in...

[sparklepaulmccoy]

just what I needed to hear!