Arthur Clark's Laws of Prediction & Shermer's Final Law

[lexaling]

There is no magic. Shermer's Last Law is rife with suppositions, none of which matter.

Self-awareness is amazing, breath-taking, dismaying, inescapable.

Thanks

[yendor79]

So the last law could a fact or a perception...the following sentence seems to point to the latter which is more logical undistinguished by how one defines God.

[HaleyMary]

interesting part of Shermer's last law: that an advanced extra terrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God. It reminds me of a book I read called "Gods of the New Millennium" by Alan F. Alford. In that book, the extra terrestrials were referred to as Gods as well. Makes me wonder do we label some beings or powers God, simply because we don't understand them?

[2bsirius]

@HaleyMary

Great comment!

Yes, exactly. God is most often a shorthand way of saying I don't understand this so I'm going to call it God and then I can give up thinking about it and "take it on faith"...

That leads nowhere.

[pangeaprogress]

wonderful thoughts!

"Every great advance in science has issued from a new audacity of the imagination."

John Dewey

[2bsirius]

@pangeaprogress

Thanks for taking this video as a response to yours...

Great quote btw.

[ballyboneman]

Hmm can't say I agree with Shermer. I think he is stretching. Any super intelligent alien will still be constrained by the fundamental nature of material reality. Just as an aside; my favourite Arthur C Clarke quote is "My favourite definition of "Intellectual" is: "Someone who has been educated beyond his/her intelligence."

[NatralisticPantheist]

Life on Earth is an extraterrestrial genetic experiment!

Could be =p

[DonQuixotedeKaw]

Hmm. meeting her.. If one assumes any validity to the Gaia hypothesis, (and many don't) then we should work from the assumption that we are the equivalent to alone, (due to distances) and seed the galaxy with new Earths, yet never assume that others are not doing the same.

[Rybot9000]

It comes down to how we frame this. Consider the Amoeba, the Amoeba consists of many functional pieces, and each of them is said to be "Part of the Amoeba", yet, none of those things in and of themselves is the Amoeba, nor does the Amoeba exist without them. In similar manner, it is said that God contains everything, and there is no God over and above what exists, but all are contained within "Him". Its like, the set to contain all sets.

[Rybot9000]

Although it would be inadequate to say that anything representing a form is not God, it is equally, although paradoxically, inadequate to say that anything which present an appearance is not God. God is considered not just to be the creator of all things, but to be the beginning, intermediary and end of all things. All things, e.g. forms, which exist, exist within God. So in that sense every one of us is God, or is an aspect of God.

[Rybot9000]

Disregard whether or not it is correct to say that men are superior logicians, what my intent is, is to bring light to the subject of why God is called Him. Though God is said to be formless and infinite. Consequently, also, why no created being could be indistinguishable from the creator, as the creator itself has no distinguishable form, anything presenting a distinguishable presence would not be God by definition. For more interpretations see Christian Theology by Alister E. McGrath.

[Rybot9000]

Shermer's Law really depends on how you define "God". It is my understanding of Christian Theology that God is what is called the Creatus Spiritus (Creative Spirit) and that Logic (Logos) is the "Word" of God. Logic being that aspect of reality which might also be called "Causality" in some instances, and which is the interface between the human capacity to reason and the "Creative Spirit" from whence it came. I.e. "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God and the Logos was God

[Rybot9000]

Within that framework, it is utterly impossible for any created being, human or alien to resemble God. Such beings are only ever capable of resembling God in reason, by the exercise of their reasoning minds. As all forms are manifest within the constraints of Logic, there can be no form equally God, as God itself has no form. Now, here is why God is called "Him", because it is believed that males are superior logicians, are superiorly rational, hence, God being creative reason, God is called He.

[jedimasterbooboo]

Beautiful video.

[Israe5l]

So what if there is no intelligent being out there?

Are we going to pack up a star-ship and send it away?

Or would we be totally satisfied with our introspections?

There is a chinese emperor story. He sent away an exploring team to a far away location. The team report back and told the emperor that they want to explor more. The emperor said: Naaaah.

[Professoranton]

Thanks, I guess I think of God in terms of negative theology, or non-being, of what is otherwise than being, & the issues of self-relation and transcendence amidst finitude are part of the notion of God.

I don't think God is a being of any sort that could be encountered per se. But this is not to deny holy moments or experiences of the divine or sacred nature of life.

Among initial questions to the aliens might be: Do you know who knows how all of THIS started?

[2bsirius]

@Professoranton

This scenario could and probably would be completely naturalistic. It could simply be the consequence of the longer period of evolution of another, older exo-intelligence.

I guess the closest I've come to your idea of a negative theology is in either Buddhism or Tao...BUT I think that both of those 'religions' need not involve anything but naturalism either.

[aido92]

Why do we suppose that anyone knows? Or that there ever will be an answer to that question? The lack of an answer does not justify the invention of one. God is a guess, and a pretty unjustifiable one at that!

[2bsirius]

@aido92

I agree...In fact, I think that the word 'God" is not one I feel the need to use. BUT it's one that has a very long cultural history, and it will be a while before we completely outgrow it IMO.

[2bsirius]

And btw I think that is more or less the comic point Arthur Clarke was making in his quote at the end of the video.

[TWITfromURANUS]

@2bsirius

Religions will continue to change (hopefully getting rid of their illogical ideas) but religion as a concept is not going anywhere. This is because it is not about knowledge in the same way science is. My religion is no-more a contradiction of science than my dreaming is a contradiction of my sleeping.

Existence is drama (what we call science is one aspect of the drama). You of all people should know that.

Scientists are never only scientists.

How do you feel ... right now?

[valhala56]

My guess is that if ET's contacted us...& told us you know what we have some very excellant technology that will give you unlimited energy, that would solve your climate change problems & would bring prosperity to the everybody on the planet but their is a string attached to all this.

You must stop all violence, all domination of others.

My question is do you really think the Human race would agree to this condtion?

I don't think they would. But what say you?

[DonQuixotedeKaw]

"The Day The Earth Stood Still"

At least the original; havn't seen the new version....

[valhala56]

@DonQuixotedeKaw, I haven't seen the new one yet either. I think it was focused on enviromentalism but the original has a good message that we have largely ignored.

[2bsirius]

@DQK

I just don't think that aliens would do what that "The Day the Earth Stood Still" postulates. The interaction of a very advanced intelligence with life on earth would likely be lots more subtle. ETI would understand the we are the result of billions of years of evolution in the school of hard knocks and the twists that have shaped our cultures and cerebrums during our deep encounters with physical reality.

It won't be Michael Rennie saying, "Klaatu barada nikto" & bring world peace.

[2bsirius]

ETI is NOT the Deus Ex Machina

[valhala56]

So you are saying advanced Aliens would just give Humans "Dual Use technolgies" and just push on elsewhere in the the Galaxy?

Then they would have to give every nation these technologies at the same time & hope That we don't spend in inordinate amount of time scheming on how to use it against percieved enemies.

I guess once they give us unlimited energy, climate stability & Global Prosperity then the Idealogues will just shut up & stay in the Mosque and won't bother all there rest of us.

[2bsirius]

@valhala56

I don't know if your comment was meant for me or for DQK, but as for my take on this...I think it's likely that they would take a position that would seek to avoid cultural intervention...As far as their technologies...If their advanced technology were introduced into our culture prematurely it could cause serious problems...It's often pointed out that Einstein's discovery of relativity theory and the resulting weapon advances were too advanced for the primitive state of our culture

[valhala56]

Nikola Tesla thought not an official alien probaly did more to give Humanity leaps in Technology. Telsa invented the electric motor, which is used in every drill, car, computer & just about everthing else. Tesla won the AC-DC war. AC being the electrical current we use to move Electricity long distances. Tesla invented wireless radio, was proven to be first over Marconi.

Tesla believed that ALL These technologies were for the betterment of man uplifted man. So he is the closet we have to a ETI

[2bsirius]

@valhala56

Valid points, but we can't destroy most of the members of our species with electric motors...With nuclear weaponry [a direct outgrowth of the original atomic weaponry which were developed during WWII and developed as a consequence of relativity] we actually could destroy a great percentage life over the face of the globe. A giant nuclear conflagration [which no longer seems as likely as it did until ten years ago or so] could feasibly mark the end of our species.

[valhala56]

Well 2b I hope your right. I think the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists moved their doomsday clock up just a month or two ago.

Not to be a downer, but I seem more Global stress going on now then even before 39, Tensions in Iran, Israel,Pakistan,The PIIGS, Internal political tensions in the US. Tensions in Latin America.

I guess it will take a lot of cool heads to deal with these problems or an ETI Cop that lays the law on us.

[DonQuixotedeKaw]

@valhala56

"I guess once they give us unlimited energy, climate stability & Global Prosperity then the Idealogues will just shut up & stay in the Mosque and won't bother all there rest of us."

The funny thing, is that we have all of that right at hand. What we have to have is a global tyranny, forcing the goatherder faiths back into the caves, and practice the kindess forms of eugenics possible.

Will this happen?

No, and we are likely to become extinct because of it.

[ballyboneman]

Don't bother it's pish; although the depiction of Klaatu certainly suits the emotionally vacant, stiff-necked, wooden-top acting ability of Keanu Reeves.

[DonQuixotedeKaw]

@ballyboneman

Thank you for the heads up; I had actually considered finding it.

Yup, if I want to watch KR, I'll watch Bill & Ted. :D

[valhala56]

With no doub't impressive razzle dazzle technology I don't think all of us would conclude that something happening to us beyond our understanding would be "God"

Say for example a very unusal phenoma occurs, off the top of my head "The Sun changing color from yellow to say Blue"

Then other unexplained phenemona occurs. Yeah some might say it is God Revealing itself. Personaly my conclusion would be advanced aliens.

[2bsirius]

@valhala56

Take a look at the Shermer article from Scientific American in the sidebar. He does an interesting job of discussing this.

[valhala56]

@2b, You know what I think? I think if ET's dropped in on us it would be like you dropping in on the most dysfunctional family on the planet. At first you might think you could "fix em" but once you seen 3 family members shot dead with a gun over a poker game, you would decide it might be a good time to leave post haste and get away from these crazies.

You might decide to revisit these folks in 10 years to see if they got their shit together. Otherwise you would not hang around.

[valhala56]

At our current stage of development, I don't think an advanced alien civilization would even bother with us. What have they got to gain from us?

This would not be unlike if somebody asked you if you wanted to adopt a psychologicaly damage 6 ft tall 250 lb juvenile deliquent. As much as you might want to help this person you know this would be an extremely risky, expensive and time consuming pursuit that could seriously backfire unless your Sandra Bullock & her new movie.

[Vogter2100]

@valhala56 6ft 250 lb juvenile delinqiuent.. nice and precise despription of humanity on a whole.

[valhala56]

Humanity = Dangerous, big guns, short tempers and a propensity to dominate and subjugate others into our own way of thinking and lifestyle.

Quote from the Stanley Kubrick film "Full Metal Jacket"

The Colonel: "Inside every Gook there is an American just wanting to get out"

[2bsirius]

@lapispinoza

Michio Kaku postulated this in one of his early books...Can't remember which one though.

[Loreleila]

Interesting, and nicely presented. Law 2 & 3 are ones which seem to confound many who can only view science in terms of the already known, yet of course in order to discover more one must enter the realms of the unknown, which may seem scarily like a denial of supposed 'facts' and a venture into the realms of faith or even spiritulaity in the loosest of senses (shock horror :P).

[Loreleila]

That would be 'spirituality' lol Why is my typing so abysmal?

[2bsirius]

@Loreleila

If bad typing is communicable, you might have caught it from me.

About the realms of the unknown, most scientific advancement requires the postulate that something might be valid and requires testing that postulate. That isn't 'spiritual' [at least in my understanding of it], but it is a desire to go beyond what we currently understand as valid or even as 'real'...

[Loreleila]

While this is generally the case it has also been those minds who were able to take leaps into the unknown, way beyond any existing structures, who have produced the greatest advances in science. I think part of the difficulty is that to many anything which cannot presently be seen or measured is spiritual or nonsense. That was how I was referring to it here anyway.

Btw, thank you, I will be happy to blame you for my poor typing. An excellent scientific postulation. :P