SDAs are full of double talk. they say one thing now but but when you use the bible to point to conflicts in what they (& their prophet ) teaches they back track & say that's not what they meant or what they said. As for EGW, don't bother trying to show them the overwhelming evidence that she contradicted the bible & gave many false prophecies repeatedly they will argue around the point all day instead of addressing it. I just pray for them that their yes will be opened. Deut18:21-22
Seventh day Adventists need to put the teachings of Ellen g white in the rubbish as she's a false and misleading prophet and they need to take in the scripture of the Greek new testament Gods word which is infallible.
I wonder if Martin's contempt for SDA is such that he will look for ambiguities he can exploit, or deny ambiguities to make it a monolith that he can condemn.
I am no adventist and regard much if it as heresy, but many heresy hunters are so full of hatred that they look for things to condemn
jesus claimed to be the way the truth and the life and the historical evidence is he really lived died and rose agin on the third day appeard to over 500 people of a period of 40 days. we are in need of forgiveness not to do good deeds and listen to faulse prophets like ellen g white who contridicts herself and the holy bible many times over. rfepent and trust in jesus alone and you will be born again!!! comeon 7th day youve been tricked bt the devil!!!
I'm so tired of that ancient lie that has turned into a mantra, about the bible being written by men so it's flawed. This is a lie from the pit of hell and spewed by men who haven't even read it and never tested it for it's veracity. It's the only book that has been and still being fulfilled when it comes to prophecy. Especially when it comes to Jesus and end times. As far as SDA's...They are a cult and one of the most dangerous because they are subtle. Beware of them
hate to say it but this video seems to be almost of no use. SDA members are brainwashed sheep who will never, ever listen to anyone but their pastors, who only listen to EGW, and if they don't then poof...gone. It happened to the guy who proved she plagiarized, it's happen to most of the pastors on the exadventist site, and it happened to me. On top of that, my "wife" and her parents has lied to dang near everyone to alienate me from my son. CULT is what you are!
@hilltree402 That guy? Which guy are you referring to? Our fundamental teachings are not from Mrs White, but from the Bible alone. As for plagiarism, I've seen a lot of websites claiming it, but they don't hold water. It would take too long to go through each one on here. So your wife and her parents are Seventh-day Adventists? Do you deem all of us bad b/c of your experience with her? If so, stop it, because there are such people in every denomination. You don't even know what "cult" is!
@iMattCi89 nothing will ever "hold water" with people who are brainwashed...congratulations on being just that. Not a minute into this 30 year old interview there's a quote from the church: EGW can NOT be wrong on anything.
@hilltree402 She had nothing to do with the vicarius filii dei thing. The Adventist Review publishes educated opinions. It does not mean they're 100% right. I don't consider Mrs White as the infallible interpreter of the Bible, b/c she very often wanted ppl to go back to the Bible for the foundation of their faith. I consider her more like an infallible laser pointer to specific principles in the Bible related to the issues attacking spirituality today as well as making it feel more relevant.
@iMattCi89 okey doke fine, go on believing man and beast amalgamated to create the current races and that Jesus was going to return within months after she said he would...or switch that up to some invisible doors opening up and some 3 billion angels writing down every last thing we all do.
@hilltree402 it says "amalgamation of man and beast". It's sentence structure here. If it said "man with beast", then it would mean humans had children w/ beasts. Instead, it's "amalgamation of man and amalgamation of beast". This is done all the time: "She wore red heels, dress, and lipstick".
The prophecy didn't happen b/c there is an implied conditional quality to God's promises and threats that wasn't met. One obvious example was when Jonah's prophecy failed to happen.
@hilltree402 Hold on there, you misrepresented what I said. I said she's infallible in the issues plaguing spirituality today. The visions that were of the future were conditional, as it is with many prophecies in the Bible. When she had a vision of the present, it was never wrong. Things that she should not have known (eg. backstabbing, hidden secrets) she knew. You may doubt her as a prophet, but the doctrines are from the Bible. The visions pointed her to what's in it, shedding light on it.
@iMattCi89 if it was never wrong (infallible) Jesus would be here already. Back track all you want on on being misrepresented and incorrect interpretation...fact of the matter is, you're doing it all to protect your sacred cow because the SDA church (like Mormons without Joseph Smith) would fall flat on it's face without her.
@hilltree402 Problem #1: You imposed your own idea of infallible to how God's prophecies work. Prob #2: You think I'm doing this to protect her-- wrong, I'm doing this to get your facts straight with the Bible's criteria. The reason why she's God's messenger is reflected in how she uplifted the Bible's precepts. Don't pretend to be observing this from a Bible-based view b/c you're not. You're a skeptic. If u want to discuss what she said, it has to b within the Bible's framework.
@iMattCi89 you're as useless talking to as the clown from the SDA in this video...have fun following in the path a third grade educated, plagiarizing woman.
@hilltree402 The root problem is that you didn't seem to have read what she said. You sound like an old recorder, repeating the same statements as other anti-Seventh-day Adventists websites. Before repeating what their claims about her are, read what she wrote first. Read what she wrote on a variety of topics and not just segments here and there. Read the whole book; and don't begin by reading the compilation books like Messages to Young Ppl b/c the context isn't there.
@iMattCi89 the root problem is that no matter what anyone says you brainwashed fools always fall back to the same old "you're taking it out of context," "no, no she meant to say this" BS. She can't have plagiarized because the law didn't exist...BS. She didn't mean humans had sex with animals...BS. She didn't mean Jesus was to have returned....BS. No one can ever be right if they say anything against EGW: the SDA's sacred cow.
@hilltree402 So, you're just going to flame and not reason it out? That's called bigotry and prejudice. You've already set it in your mind that we are brainwashed. If I wanted to, I could say the same thing of you. I could say you're brainwashed by the propaganda of anti-Seventh-day Adventists and bad experience with your wife.
And may I ask how you came across the writing that "every other church is under Satna's control"? Did you find that in her books yourself?
@iMattCi89 go right ahead, at least I'm not the one following an imaginary prophet. Funny thing, you almost spelled Santa...another fictitious character we all know doesn't exist. And no, it's not just my wife...it's every SDA "pastor" I've come across who, just like you, wants me to "just read the books, you'll see" and if I don't come around (start the brainwashing) they disappear or, better yet, call the police.
@hilltree402 The difference is that I don't ask you to do so thinking that you'll change your mind. There's a reason why I said some of the claims are out of context. I'm asking you to read her original writings because I believe you don't know the setting. How can you know what she really stood for if you don't familiarize with her?
This goes back to: How did you come by the quote "every other church is under Satan's control"?
@iMattCi89 that'd be great if I thought the SDA church hadn't changed, hidden, erased, edited, moved around etc. whatever they needed to to make EGW look like some sort of superhero. Thing is, there's little doubt they would if need be to do just that. I won't be reading anything she wrote, nor will I be reading the book of Mormon, or be going down to Waco, TX to worship David Koresh (who started out a SDA follower).
@hilltree402 So how do you know if it was changed, hidden, erased, etc. as you claimed if you haven't read the works? If you take it from another source that claims this view w/out investigating, that makes you gullible.
@iMattCi89 btw, if you were really going by "the Bible and the Bible alone" you wouldn't be quite so adamant about me reading a third grade educated womans book.
@hilltree402 I'm encouraging you to read it b/c you make claims about her works without actually having read the entirety of each individual work you accuse. But if you want to throw stones at her 3rd grade ed, Simon Peter only had a fisherman's education; that hasn't stopped millions of people accepting him as still being inspired of God.
@iMattCi89 you don't know the setting either, it was the late 1800's, when most everyone was fairly racist, no one knew much of anything about science. Now, about those quotes, from Spiritual Gifts Vol. 1: "Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body. The sayings and doings of men are dwelt upon instead of the plain cutting truths of the word of God." "Their profession, their prayers and their exhortations, are an abomination in the sight of God."
@hilltree402 Ah, I see. That's the exact quote I found then! So I was right, you did take it out of context. That context was a vision of the time when the 2nd and 3rd Angel Messages of Revelation 14 get sounded powerfully. In other words, it's about the future. It's not quantum physics to understand that she wasn't talking about now.
@iMattCi89 angels....right, like tooth fairies, easter rabbits, santa claus, thor (movie releasing this weekend, factual account ya know), and every other magical creature no ones ever seen. Sorry you've been brainwashed so hard, it's kinda sad really.
@hilltree402 So you're saying all Christians are brainwashed. Fascinating, so your issue isn't with Seventh-day Adventism at all, it's with the fundamental claims of Christianity.
@iMattCi89 my issue is with people, like yourself, who don't know that the Bible is man made, man edited, and decided upon by men which books would be in it. May 21st is just around the corner, yet another date that will come and go with absolutely nothing inordinate occurring....like the ones Ellen White made false claims about, but leave it to the SDA cult to make up excuse after excuse to keep her on that there pedestal.
@iMattCi89 there is also this from Jeremiah, and trust me: I know the lying by SDA pastors happens a LOT:
Behold, I [am] against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. {23:32} Behold, I [am] against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
@hilltree402 That prophecy is referring to prophets that are not God's. Happened a fair bit during the time period of Jeremiah. Jesus said there'd be false prophets in the last days. He wouldn't say "false prophets" if there weren't going to be real prophets. Furthermore, in Joel 2:28, God promised that before He comes, He would pour out His Spirit on all and that the spirit of prophecy comes again.
Have you checked out the book "The White Lie"?. I did some research into this one, and actually compared Ellen Whites writings with the real book that he claimed they were copied from, and he was right. Some were actually word for word copied, while others changed a few words here and there.
From what I heard once that the books were written by someone else, but changed into Ellen Whites name. I believe James White did this with one of his.
@Myhopeisinhim Have you researched our side's response to those? Part of research is to know both sides' defense on an issue before drawing a conclusion. I'm sending you a PM with a link containing a summary as an introduction to our side's response.
see, there you go: only your non-SDA "friends" are influenced by a mythical creature. As Dr. Martin says, you can't see anything wrong with yourselves, only others. It's always the defense that things are taken out of context...maybe it should be that she was more than a bit loony.
@hilltree402 You operate under a few assumptions. (1) That Satan is mythical. (2) That I was saying it doesn't happen to ppl in my church.
I was saying "my Christian friends who are not Seventh-day Adventists". I was not making any reference to those in my church. And to address assumption (1) Jesus spoke about Satan as if he were a literal single angel (Luke 10:18). Now, you have mud-slung quite a bit. But have you asked yourself: How can you be sure Satan doesn't exist?
@iMattCi89 um, the same way I know that Professor X isn't going to come through the pages of X-men and read my mind. I know the SDA cult sells books saying they know who he is and that he's here on earth...wow, what a brainwashed group of fools. Go on, tell your Christian friends they're under the influence of Satan. I'm sure you'll still have those friends.
@hilltree402 So essentially, you aren't truly against Seventh-day Adventists, it goes deeper than that. You don't even think God is real. That's the fundamental issue that's been coloring your statements. I suggest that before you mud-sling Seventh-day Adventists, you should settle with the basic tenets of Christianity: that God, angels, miracles and sin are real. You only doubt it because it hasn't happened noticeably to you yet.
@hilltree402 One of the reasons many people are Christian or religious is because a miracle has been done to them. Some simply can't be solved by science, like when a guy gets shot point-blank and regains consciousness with just light bruising. Or how a paper cut heals within minutes without any sign of it being there.
@iMattCi89 and of course you have examples of these stories? I jumped off a 80 story building and only sprained my ankle...really, it happened...trust me, or rather the "miracle" that god provided.
@hilltree402 The first story I read in a magazine. The second story was my own. I distinctly saw and felt a paper cut caused by my Subway wrapper and blood was starting to ooze out. I said a quick prayer and when we left there was only a dull ache but there wasn't any cut there anymore.
@iMattCi89 btw, EGW would say you too are being controlled by Satan with all the non-approved movies your watching...congrats to you for following a mind-controlling, false, third grade educated "prophet."
@hilltree402 I'm sure she would and I'd agree with her. It's something I'm struggling with and I don't deny it. She isn't mind-controlling (all she spoke about can be found in principle in the Bible), and you can't call her a false prophet. In order to call her a false prophet, you'd have to believe that there really is such a thing as a prophet in the first place. You don't believe in the Bible and its testimony, so why would you believe God exists or that He has messengers?
@iMattCi89 because something had to start whatever you call this we live in, but not specifically our planet and most certainly not in seven days. Okay, so the Bible is mind controlling and because of it EGW has been to the people that follow her. You are right though, unless you take very vague guesses that happen to correlate to a future event and call it being a prophecy (or better yet write that the prophecy happened just because you want it to have) there are no prophets.
@iMattCi89 also, Jesus himself supposedly said he'd return within the generation (20-25 years) of the people he was talking to. Luckily, everyone knows the Bible isn't supposed to be a word for word account of what went on 2k years ago.
the reason the SDA cult (who indeed does alienate people for not totally agreeing with them...I know personally) hangs on to EGW so tightly is that if they don't have her as a prophet they aren't "THE REMNANT CHURCH"...and then the whole thing unravels, which it should! Why? Because at least one pastor (David Asscherick) lies about the Bible being "internally coherent"...it's not, by a long shot.
@hilltree402 That's called generalization. I personally take offense that you judge all of us by the ones you've been exposed to. If I come across 20 Americans in my life and they turn out to be snobbish, should I judge that all Americans are snobbish? If anything, they go against what Mrs White said about not purposely alienating ourselves from other ppl. I have friends who don't believe as I do, but we're still friends.
@iMattCi89 you all follow a "prophet" who wrote every other church is under the control of Satan...that's generalizing in a very un-Christian way. You all claim that friend statement, I've yet to see it in action. The Bible isn't internally coherent because barely any of the stories about Jesus agree with each other, nor do many of the statements about the "laws" of the Old Testament. For example: the penalty for breaking the Sabbath is death, but the 6th "law" is though shall not kill.
@hilltree402 Could you tell me where she wrote they're under Satan's control? How many of our churches have you visited? We're not alone in this, in that other denominations have churches that are hostile while they have other churches that are friendly. As for the stories not agreeing, I disagree, b/c I don't see the writers perfect, I see the teachings perfect. As for the penalty of breaking the Sabbath, are you aware that technically breaking any of them is to be paid by death?
@iMattCi89 I could, but that would further your apparent laziness about your "prophet." Look into it yourself. Okay, I'd guess you all better figure out what kind of kool aide you like....death be upon you, but only because you just said so.
@hilltree402 I asked because I was wondering if you referred to one that was taken out of context. I know of one in Spiritual Gifts Vol 1 p189. However, context first; it was a vision of the 2nd Angel's message, not of the present. And as for it reaching fulfillment, I can say that within my circle of friends (non-Adventist), Satan's influence is obvious. The reality of the Bible's claims are doubted, others nonchalant about it, and some don't even want to read the Bible.
@hilltree402 I want to clarify, that breaking any of the 10 commandments is sin (1 John 3:4). That's why I said breaking any of them results in death. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). God told the Israelites to stone the transgressors because they were His representatives. When a judge in court sentences a person to death, is it considered murder? Not in the eyes of the law, b/c it's a judicial act. When God killed someone or ordered some1 killed, it was judicial and righteous.
@hilltree402 This has nothing to do with hate. Furthermore, I have a distaste for ppl like the WBC who think God hates gays because He said it's an a perversion. I don't hate gays. What I said about the Decalogue is something inevitable. Jesus would not have needed to sacrifice Himself if He were not a righteous and just God. Being Love also means needing to take a stand for the sake of your loved ones.
@iMattCi89 Yes, it does have to do with hate: do as I say or you're dead, and that goes for everything I "created." Oh, right, so now Jesus is a God...or is it that he was the son of God, or God himself, or God have a mental episode...dang this is confusing. If people were taking a stand in the way you are saying, they were taking a stand against God...another thing that's not supposed to get you real far in this imaginary realm.
@hilltree402 There's a logic problem here; You associate "obey or perish" as being hate. I think you don't really believe that. Is it hateful when parents tell their kids, "Do not touch the iron or you'll definitely get hurt"? The nature of sin is that it separates us from God, the source of life. It's intrinsic. What you're arguing against is like saying it's retarded to think a square can't be a square if it's shaped into a circle. It's an intrinsic thing, its very nature.
@iMattCi89 your "logic" is as stupid as the other SDA idiots I've met: God is the cause for the punishment, not an "iron." What you're saying is that the thing will hurt you, not the actual parent. The nature of sin is the nature of being human (or any other animal for that matter)...take God out of it and you'd be the same exact person: brainwashed.
@hilltree402 Ok, so why not protest cruelty against the legal system if it punishes you via fines? The nature of sin isn't what God intended. He made humans perfect. It was not His fault sin entered. At the heart of this, it isn't about God punishing, it's about facing the accountability of the choices we make. Should a serial murderer and rapist be free to roam the streets unpunished for his crimes?
@iMattCi89 actually, I do if the fines are simply there to make payroll and quotas for the month. Humans have never been perfect, and never will be: we're animals just like every other and act to better our own situations, even if that hurts other people. Release serial murderers and rapists? I suppose, if you think they should be forgiven...and that is what the Bible teaches.
@hilltree402 God doesn't punish because He likes it. After Adam fell, he should not have lived. He stayed alive because God kept him alive. The result of sin is death, not b/c God wants it, but b/c it cuts us off from Him who gives life. He only punishes the wicked after every1 has chosen where they stand; with Him or Satan. And it isn't 4ever. Hell doesn't burn 4ever, it burns only until the appropriate judgment is complete. God can't let them continue living b/c
@hilltree402 cont'd: b/c they choose not to accept the way out of the result sin. He gave them years and decades to make the choice, but they choose to continue to be separate from Him and even if He gave them more time, they would not change. So in mercy, He ends their lives. And in justice they suffer for the bad that they did. Satan burns the longest b/c his evil is the greatest. All will turn to dust and become ashes; what was supposed to have happened at the beginning but God withheld.
@iMattCi89 whatever, go on believing in invisible deities...just be sure to check yourself into a nut house before they do it for you. I know the SDA church tries to sell books claiming Satan is actually a person here on earth, that being the Pope because he happens to wear red among a few other things. Most of a lot of colleges wear red every Saturday in the fall...are they "Satan" too?
@hilltree402 Don't say "know" because that's not what is taught; the pope system used to be the agent of Satan and that's obvious in history through the persecution of all who believed in justification through faith alone, which is entirely what the book of Romans is about. The vicarius filii dei doesn't hold water and was built around a claim that some1 saw it. That name isn't why the papacy was the antichrist; it's what they did and proclaimed.
Ellen g white is seen as above Christ. I used to attend SDA and have seen the obessession that the denomination has with this false prophet. The very existence of the SDA functions health where Christ becomes nothing more than a footnote. Ellen g white started this health obession and this sickness has spread amongst them
I believe that unless God had told Ellen specifically that "this particular belief is wrong", Ellen White could and did make small mistakes. The reason being that Ellen based some writings from sources from authoritative sources in greek, hebrew, history, etc. of her time. But even those guys got it wrong. Only her "thus saith the Lord" moments were completely infallible in doctrine because that was directly from God.
Beliefs firmly cherished by EGW before 1844, (from book Life Sketches); baptism by immersion only, no eternal hell, doctrine of soul-sleep at death, each co-incidentlaly became early SDA doctrine.
After 1844, Sabbath keeping and Sanctuary Doctrine became SDA doctrine once she put her "I saw in vision" stamp on both beliefs.
EGW did create and or validate current fundamental SDA beliefs
@BuckLakeBoy You really don't know the history... those "pre-1844" beliefs were those of the Millerites. The Millerites after 1844 who believed the time was correct became known as Adventists (not Seventh-Day Adventist). That was when Hiram Edson received light on the nature of "Sanctuary" in Daniel 8:14. Ellen's vision about it came after Edson's realization. The Sanctuary doctrine did not come from Ellen. And Ellen was actually very reluctant abt the Sabbath at first. Get history right..
@iMattCi89You really don't know history...Ellen & James were Millerites until the second failed date of Christ's return 1843 & 1844. E. & J. readily accepted the 6-6 PM sabbath keeping doctrine from Bates & the gift of tongues & interpretation and EGW's own vision. That left approx 50,000 first day Adventists who did not believe in the Sabbath, her visions and further time setting. Further time setting was carried out by a very small splinter group outside of both of the above parties.
@BuckLakeBoy where did you read that she set another time after Oct 22 1844? And yes, they were Millerites until Oct 22 1844. She got her visions after that.
@BuckLakeBoy If you re-read my post I didn't say EGW set further times after '44. The Adventists not connected to EGW & her group concluded after a major conference to not accept three things; the 7th day sabbath, EGW's visions, and further time setting...not by her but by the fringe groups on both sides as mentioned. This was the only thing both Adventist groups agreed upon after 1844; that further time setting was foolishness. EGW spoke out strongly against further time setting after 1844.
@iMattCi89 The only problem EGW had re: the sabbath was that nearly a decade after her vision, Andrews presented his paper indicating sunset to sunset was the correct time. This is what she had a hard time accepting....after making such a test of the sabbath they discovered that the had been observing it incorrectly for years based on lack of proper Bible study. Even after a "vision' most SDA's were keeping Bates time instead of Bible time..very embarrassing
@iMattCi89 "The sunset time was now accepted by nearly all present at the 1855 conference. Joseph Bates and Ellen White were exceptions, both holding to the six o'clock position." Arthur White, Ellen G. White, Messenger to the Remnant, pp. 35-36.
"I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel, 'Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet." Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 116
@BuckLakeBoy ooo thanx! I looked it up in Testimonies Vol1. But I see her vision's right. She did resist, but the angel gave her a reason why this thing happened was legit. Unless the Lord convicts you of a truth, it will fly over ur head. Truth isn't something you read, but what the Word says and the Holy Spirit convicts your heart of it.
@iMattCi89 Also, a letter written by James White is worth reading. It's entitled;
J.W. to "My Dear Brother," July 2, 1848, Berlin, Connecticut. One notable comment by James White is: "Satan would get us from this time [6 PM-6PM]. But let us stand fast in the Sabbath as God has given it to us and Brother Bates. God has raised up Brother Bates to give this truth. I should have more faith in his opinion than any other man's."
@BuckLakeBoy It may have been so, but that's the same thing that happened with why the Great Disappointment happened. Using the light they had, they thought "even" meant "6pm", and in the Millerite time they used the light they had and interpreted "sanctuary" to be earth.
SDA folks, you don't need Ellen G White! You have Jesus, the Bible, & the Holy Ghost. Quit following a prophet. Only Christ, Only Scripture....Look to Jesus, the author & finisher of your faith.
@windbisquit25 what you say makes it sound as though we don't believe Jesus is the only author and finisher of our faith. He is our only author&finisher of our faith. To deny the inspiration of Ellen White is to deny the working of the Holy Ghost in our movement in history. But if any one who claims to be a SDA raises her to be equal with the Bible, he/she is expressing his/her own opinion.
the bible interpret itself, you don't interpret the bible with any other book. that's the basic believes of SDA, like in any other religions people infiltrate, and try to take people to the extreme, example trying to make EGW another mary
hey this happen in every religion. so basically instead of pointing with one finger why don't we examine ourselves first
>djconklin, DaedelusNone, dconklin58 is back with another user name. That's 3 and counting ....
The first was mine till I lost the password. The last is mine. Daedulus is someone else (from Wisc?). Now if you knew stylometrics you could compare the various posts to determine authorship. But, you also need posts of 5,000 words or more. Now since you don't have that all you have is amateur-hour guesswork. You should see a therapist & your pastor about your paranoia.
LOL if you think that adding 25 cent words to your sentences make you an intellectual, you are sadly mistaken. And using the phrase "falsely conjectured" is a double negative since a conjecture already assumes lack of proof, then you have just stated that my lack of proof is a false accusation. So, thanks again for supporting my arguments. You should stop now, unless you enjoy looking like the south end of a north facing horse.?!
"falsely conjectured" At least my typo's are not intentional. You actually MEANT to say "falsely conjectured" ... LOL ... quit it ... my stomach is hurting from laughter.
@spooteronicus: "djconklin, DaedelusNone, dconklin58 is back with another user name. That's 3 and counting ...."
I told you that I lost my password and so had to create a new account. I don't know who DaedulusNone is/was. You assumed too much and/or your paranoia is showing.
Not once have read anything of Mrs White that contridicts scripture. I WAS a disbeliever, but what I can tell you is this, that if this Video was done today and not in the 80s it would be a different tune. Mrs White warned about the evils of Freemasonry and the coming NWO and how the Pope would eventually control the entire world; in the 1800s! No one today can deny that something is happening. The Great Controversy by White is like reading a contemporary news paper.
Those views were held by protestants all over the world, they did not originate with Mrs White. as for contradicting scripture, there are multiple examples, one being her claim that all of Jesus' brothers were older than He was but the Bible says Jesus is born of a virgin.
The Debate seems a little one side it, and as the DR. Johnsson says all he bings up are quotes of SDA´s, what are they debating SDA doctrine or what people in the SDA Church say and do.
Also, your use of Isaiah 66:22,23 is completely out of context.
The local context begins in Isaiah 65 and mentions children dying at 100 and the Levitcal Priesthood being reinstituted in the "new heavens and new earth".
This is so clear that its application is local to Israel and does mean Heaven itself.
You either take it all or abandon the text as proof for the Sabbath in Heaven. No cutting and pasting.
Just a good thing, it is Yah who judges the heart and tests the mind and gives accordingly. ( Jer. 17:9, 10). For no-body is infallible. Even Lucifer who was made perfect wasn't infallible (Ezek. 28:15). Neither was Adam, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Jacob, Moses, Rachab, David, Solomon, Mary, Peter. Paul etc. etc. . Yet there were all beloved by Yah and He called them friend, prophet, apostle, child, son, daughter.
Conclusion: Jonah watched with great anticipation for God to destroy Ninevah. He preached only doom to them. Then he is very very unhappy AFTER he finds out that Jeremiah 18 principle is still overriding his prediction of certain doom.
Your failed idea that your argument must rest on a denial of Jeremiah 18's conditional prophecy principle -- is not helping your argument at all.
I never made the case that if Jer 18 is true - then you must accept Ellen White. Try something else.
Conclusion: Jonah knew God would relent, even before he left his home.The Bible is clear on this point. God gave 40 days for Ninevah to repent. The Bible is also clear on this point.. Ninevites also knew God was merciful and turned away from their violence. The Bible is clear here also. Ellen White's prophecy failed without any hint of an explanation as to why. End of story.
Not a single gripe listed by the comments so far - is "new" for Walter Martin. It all appeals to possibly complaints already available to Martin when he published his book on Cults and stated that the Adventists were clearly NOT a cult.
* Must pass all Biblical tests of a prophet, mainly Deuteronomy 18 which states the prophet's words must come to pass.
* If there is a condition for the failure of a prophesy, then the condition must be stated when the prophesy was made, not after the failure as an excuse to explain the error.
* Must agree 100% with the written word of God and must never deny the deity of Jesus Christ.
Ellen White: * Claims Jesus had older brothers. - Where is the text to support this? * Prophesied Jesus' return in 1856 - Why didn't He return? * Denied the deity of Jesus Christ - Where is the BIblical evidence that Jesus is not God Almighty? * Said that Christ's atoning sacrifice was not complete on the cross - Where is the Biblical evidence for this? * Says that our sins are not completely forgiven and we are unable to say that we are saved until after the IJ - Where is the Biblical support
* Said the plan of salvation was made AFTER the fall of man and not before - Where is the Biblical evidence for this? * Close of probation for sinners in 1844 - Where is the Biblical evidence? * Serpent deceived Adam in the garden - Where is the Biblical evidence? * Ignorant slaves cannot be saved - Where is the Biblical evidence? * I can EARN God's favor by obeying the 1-0 commandments - Where is the Biblical evidence? * Christ sent Paul to the disciples for instruction - Biblical evidence?
And of course this question. The Bible states plainly that no man knows the day and hour of Jesus' return. Jesus himself did not know this when speaking with His disciples. Jesus said NO MAN knows this, not even the angels in heaven, only the Father. but Ellen White has put herself in such a high position to claim to know the actual day and hour of Jesus' return in a vision. And subsequently FORGOT it after the vision was over.
An obvious tactic to try to prove her authority. She can remember "great details" of many of her visions and write them out maticulously. But now you have the most important event in human history and she could not remember the time? Did God supposedly give this information to her and cause her to not be able to remember it afterward? No legitimate prophet in all history has actually claimed that God Himself gave them the day and hour of Christ's return.
Ellen White stole this supposed privelege, conveniently forgot the time and used this "vision" to further establish her supposed authority. If she had such privilege from our Lord God Almighty, then she would not have prophesied falsely of Christ's return in 1856. Why would God give her such high privilege and then let her prophesy falsely about Christ's return? These failures are casting a bad light on the nature of my Lord and Saviour. Blame is put to God??!! and God's people for her failure
It hs already been established that the condition for Jonah's prophecy was repentance, if you remember. And Jpnah complained because he WANTED the Nenivites destroyed for their son so God purposefully showed mercy to teach Jonah the principle of mercy. It is so obvious that God had repentance as the condition for saving and showing mercy to Ninevah, that is plainly stated in the Book of Jonah. So, AGAIN you fail to show Ellen White's stated condition !!! NICE TRY
Jonah whined because he WANTED them destroyed. And he didn;t want to preach the message to Ninevah because he knew God would be merciful ... It is obvious that throughout the book of Jonah that the themes were repentance and mercy ... The sinful people of Nenivah even knew that repentance was part of the equation ...
Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Why do you think the 40 days were given? Answer that?
the 40 days were given for repepntance. Even the ninevites knew that "
Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Do you think God gave hem 40 days just to watch them suffer grief so He could finally let them have it???
If that was the case God would wipe them away in 1 day, not 40 ... Wow, the extent that you are willing to wrest the scriptures to protect Ellen White?!
Why were the forty days given? Can you even answer that ... did you miss the whole point of the Book of Jonah? Answer that ... why why why were the 40 days given? And answer yet again, WHAT was the condition of EGW's 1856 failure?
Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jonah 4:2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.
Incase you missed the obvious (or ignored it on purpose), here is the condition;
Jonah 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them TURN EVERY ONE FROM HIS EVIL WAY, and from the violence that is in their hands.
IF they turn from evil
THEN God would repent and not destroy them
SO AGAIN for the n'th tine ... WHAT was EGW's condition and WHERE was it stated? I keep asking and you never answer
* Jonah whines when God shows mercy because he feels like it was a waste of time to preach destruction because God is merciful
* God uses the gourd to teach Jonah a lesson in caring and mercy.
The Whole Book of Jonah is clear that God will repent of the evil if the people will repent of their evil deeds. an Obvious, plainly stated condition.
BUT, Where is EGW's condition stated? Are you or are you not able to provide it? I think the answer at this point is NO or you would have provided it.
You name me even one Bible prophecy that failed or that didn't come to pass without there being an understood explanation as to why, and that condition is plainly stated in the Bible. Where in the Bible do we see a case where there was a failure of a prophecy and nobody could explain why the outcome was the way it was? Where idi a prophecy fail and nobody has an answer for it? Because that's waht happened with EGW and SDA's manufactured excuses post de facto
SDAs are full of double talk. they say one thing now but but when you use the bible to point to conflicts in what they (& their prophet ) teaches they back track & say that's not what they meant or what they said. As for EGW, don't bother trying to show them the overwhelming evidence that she contradicted the bible & gave many false prophecies repeatedly they will argue around the point all day instead of addressing it. I just pray for them that their yes will be opened. Deut18:21-22
JudiM 3 weeks ago
How much did John Ankerberg spend on his hair?
limerick121 1 month ago
The Wolves are out and hunting for prey. God Bless EGW.
DivineNewsNetwork 1 month ago in playlist Seventh Day Adventist -VS- Christianity - Full Debate
Seventh day Adventists need to put the teachings of Ellen g white in the rubbish as she's a false and misleading prophet and they need to take in the scripture of the Greek new testament Gods word which is infallible.
mamainmancj 3 months ago
Seventh Day Adventists are HYPOCRITES! They criticise Catholics for following the Pope but they follow an IDIOT like Ellen White!
Cherubaby 3 months ago
I wonder if Martin's contempt for SDA is such that he will look for ambiguities he can exploit, or deny ambiguities to make it a monolith that he can condemn.
I am no adventist and regard much if it as heresy, but many heresy hunters are so full of hatred that they look for things to condemn
Strefanasha 3 months ago
While Church is above the bible, no pope is above is above the bible.
Hkepfer 7 months ago
jesus claimed to be the way the truth and the life and the historical evidence is he really lived died and rose agin on the third day appeard to over 500 people of a period of 40 days. we are in need of forgiveness not to do good deeds and listen to faulse prophets like ellen g white who contridicts herself and the holy bible many times over. rfepent and trust in jesus alone and you will be born again!!! comeon 7th day youve been tricked bt the devil!!!
mamainmancj 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
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AWHNNOH 8 months ago
I'm so tired of that ancient lie that has turned into a mantra, about the bible being written by men so it's flawed. This is a lie from the pit of hell and spewed by men who haven't even read it and never tested it for it's veracity. It's the only book that has been and still being fulfilled when it comes to prophecy. Especially when it comes to Jesus and end times. As far as SDA's...They are a cult and one of the most dangerous because they are subtle. Beware of them
KakkoiGuy1 9 months ago
hate to say it but this video seems to be almost of no use. SDA members are brainwashed sheep who will never, ever listen to anyone but their pastors, who only listen to EGW, and if they don't then poof...gone. It happened to the guy who proved she plagiarized, it's happen to most of the pastors on the exadventist site, and it happened to me. On top of that, my "wife" and her parents has lied to dang near everyone to alienate me from my son. CULT is what you are!
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 That guy? Which guy are you referring to? Our fundamental teachings are not from Mrs White, but from the Bible alone. As for plagiarism, I've seen a lot of websites claiming it, but they don't hold water. It would take too long to go through each one on here. So your wife and her parents are Seventh-day Adventists? Do you deem all of us bad b/c of your experience with her? If so, stop it, because there are such people in every denomination. You don't even know what "cult" is!
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 nothing will ever "hold water" with people who are brainwashed...congratulations on being just that. Not a minute into this 30 year old interview there's a quote from the church: EGW can NOT be wrong on anything.
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 She had nothing to do with the vicarius filii dei thing. The Adventist Review publishes educated opinions. It does not mean they're 100% right. I don't consider Mrs White as the infallible interpreter of the Bible, b/c she very often wanted ppl to go back to the Bible for the foundation of their faith. I consider her more like an infallible laser pointer to specific principles in the Bible related to the issues attacking spirituality today as well as making it feel more relevant.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 okey doke fine, go on believing man and beast amalgamated to create the current races and that Jesus was going to return within months after she said he would...or switch that up to some invisible doors opening up and some 3 billion angels writing down every last thing we all do.
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 it says "amalgamation of man and beast". It's sentence structure here. If it said "man with beast", then it would mean humans had children w/ beasts. Instead, it's "amalgamation of man and amalgamation of beast". This is done all the time: "She wore red heels, dress, and lipstick".
The prophecy didn't happen b/c there is an implied conditional quality to God's promises and threats that wasn't met. One obvious example was when Jonah's prophecy failed to happen.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 you added words to what she wrote, like people have done with the Bible time and again...get it right next time.
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 There's a big difference between adding words, and correcting pointing out wrong interpretation of sentence structure.
Or are you referring to my comment about the failed prophecy? I didn't add either, it's from Evangelism pg 695-696 under chapter 20.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 and you say she's not infallible...yet another lie from a brainwashed sheep.
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 Hold on there, you misrepresented what I said. I said she's infallible in the issues plaguing spirituality today. The visions that were of the future were conditional, as it is with many prophecies in the Bible. When she had a vision of the present, it was never wrong. Things that she should not have known (eg. backstabbing, hidden secrets) she knew. You may doubt her as a prophet, but the doctrines are from the Bible. The visions pointed her to what's in it, shedding light on it.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 if it was never wrong (infallible) Jesus would be here already. Back track all you want on on being misrepresented and incorrect interpretation...fact of the matter is, you're doing it all to protect your sacred cow because the SDA church (like Mormons without Joseph Smith) would fall flat on it's face without her.
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 Problem #1: You imposed your own idea of infallible to how God's prophecies work. Prob #2: You think I'm doing this to protect her-- wrong, I'm doing this to get your facts straight with the Bible's criteria. The reason why she's God's messenger is reflected in how she uplifted the Bible's precepts. Don't pretend to be observing this from a Bible-based view b/c you're not. You're a skeptic. If u want to discuss what she said, it has to b within the Bible's framework.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 you're as useless talking to as the clown from the SDA in this video...have fun following in the path a third grade educated, plagiarizing woman.
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 The root problem is that you didn't seem to have read what she said. You sound like an old recorder, repeating the same statements as other anti-Seventh-day Adventists websites. Before repeating what their claims about her are, read what she wrote first. Read what she wrote on a variety of topics and not just segments here and there. Read the whole book; and don't begin by reading the compilation books like Messages to Young Ppl b/c the context isn't there.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 the root problem is that no matter what anyone says you brainwashed fools always fall back to the same old "you're taking it out of context," "no, no she meant to say this" BS. She can't have plagiarized because the law didn't exist...BS. She didn't mean humans had sex with animals...BS. She didn't mean Jesus was to have returned....BS. No one can ever be right if they say anything against EGW: the SDA's sacred cow.
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 So, you're just going to flame and not reason it out? That's called bigotry and prejudice. You've already set it in your mind that we are brainwashed. If I wanted to, I could say the same thing of you. I could say you're brainwashed by the propaganda of anti-Seventh-day Adventists and bad experience with your wife.
And may I ask how you came across the writing that "every other church is under Satna's control"? Did you find that in her books yourself?
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 go right ahead, at least I'm not the one following an imaginary prophet. Funny thing, you almost spelled Santa...another fictitious character we all know doesn't exist. And no, it's not just my wife...it's every SDA "pastor" I've come across who, just like you, wants me to "just read the books, you'll see" and if I don't come around (start the brainwashing) they disappear or, better yet, call the police.
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 The difference is that I don't ask you to do so thinking that you'll change your mind. There's a reason why I said some of the claims are out of context. I'm asking you to read her original writings because I believe you don't know the setting. How can you know what she really stood for if you don't familiarize with her?
This goes back to: How did you come by the quote "every other church is under Satan's control"?
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 that'd be great if I thought the SDA church hadn't changed, hidden, erased, edited, moved around etc. whatever they needed to to make EGW look like some sort of superhero. Thing is, there's little doubt they would if need be to do just that. I won't be reading anything she wrote, nor will I be reading the book of Mormon, or be going down to Waco, TX to worship David Koresh (who started out a SDA follower).
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 So how do you know if it was changed, hidden, erased, etc. as you claimed if you haven't read the works? If you take it from another source that claims this view w/out investigating, that makes you gullible.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 btw, if you were really going by "the Bible and the Bible alone" you wouldn't be quite so adamant about me reading a third grade educated womans book.
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 I'm encouraging you to read it b/c you make claims about her works without actually having read the entirety of each individual work you accuse. But if you want to throw stones at her 3rd grade ed, Simon Peter only had a fisherman's education; that hasn't stopped millions of people accepting him as still being inspired of God.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 you don't know the setting either, it was the late 1800's, when most everyone was fairly racist, no one knew much of anything about science. Now, about those quotes, from Spiritual Gifts Vol. 1: "Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body. The sayings and doings of men are dwelt upon instead of the plain cutting truths of the word of God." "Their profession, their prayers and their exhortations, are an abomination in the sight of God."
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 Ah, I see. That's the exact quote I found then! So I was right, you did take it out of context. That context was a vision of the time when the 2nd and 3rd Angel Messages of Revelation 14 get sounded powerfully. In other words, it's about the future. It's not quantum physics to understand that she wasn't talking about now.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 angels....right, like tooth fairies, easter rabbits, santa claus, thor (movie releasing this weekend, factual account ya know), and every other magical creature no ones ever seen. Sorry you've been brainwashed so hard, it's kinda sad really.
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 So you're saying all Christians are brainwashed. Fascinating, so your issue isn't with Seventh-day Adventism at all, it's with the fundamental claims of Christianity.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 my issue is with people, like yourself, who don't know that the Bible is man made, man edited, and decided upon by men which books would be in it. May 21st is just around the corner, yet another date that will come and go with absolutely nothing inordinate occurring....like the ones Ellen White made false claims about, but leave it to the SDA cult to make up excuse after excuse to keep her on that there pedestal.
hilltree402 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 nor will I ever read the book of someone who wrote every other church is under the control of "Satan."
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 As for angels, you don't believe they exist so why would you believe they're recording everything we do?
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 there is also this from Jeremiah, and trust me: I know the lying by SDA pastors happens a LOT:
Behold, I [am] against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. {23:32} Behold, I [am] against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 That prophecy is referring to prophets that are not God's. Happened a fair bit during the time period of Jeremiah. Jesus said there'd be false prophets in the last days. He wouldn't say "false prophets" if there weren't going to be real prophets. Furthermore, in Joel 2:28, God promised that before He comes, He would pour out His Spirit on all and that the spirit of prophecy comes again.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89
Have you checked out the book "The White Lie"?. I did some research into this one, and actually compared Ellen Whites writings with the real book that he claimed they were copied from, and he was right. Some were actually word for word copied, while others changed a few words here and there.
From what I heard once that the books were written by someone else, but changed into Ellen Whites name. I believe James White did this with one of his.
Myhopeisinhim 10 months ago
@Myhopeisinhim Have you researched our side's response to those? Part of research is to know both sides' defense on an issue before drawing a conclusion. I'm sending you a PM with a link containing a summary as an introduction to our side's response.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
see, there you go: only your non-SDA "friends" are influenced by a mythical creature. As Dr. Martin says, you can't see anything wrong with yourselves, only others. It's always the defense that things are taken out of context...maybe it should be that she was more than a bit loony.
hilltree402 11 months ago
@hilltree402 You operate under a few assumptions. (1) That Satan is mythical. (2) That I was saying it doesn't happen to ppl in my church.
I was saying "my Christian friends who are not Seventh-day Adventists". I was not making any reference to those in my church. And to address assumption (1) Jesus spoke about Satan as if he were a literal single angel (Luke 10:18). Now, you have mud-slung quite a bit. But have you asked yourself: How can you be sure Satan doesn't exist?
iMattCi89 11 months ago
@iMattCi89 um, the same way I know that Professor X isn't going to come through the pages of X-men and read my mind. I know the SDA cult sells books saying they know who he is and that he's here on earth...wow, what a brainwashed group of fools. Go on, tell your Christian friends they're under the influence of Satan. I'm sure you'll still have those friends.
hilltree402 11 months ago
@hilltree402 So essentially, you aren't truly against Seventh-day Adventists, it goes deeper than that. You don't even think God is real. That's the fundamental issue that's been coloring your statements. I suggest that before you mud-sling Seventh-day Adventists, you should settle with the basic tenets of Christianity: that God, angels, miracles and sin are real. You only doubt it because it hasn't happened noticeably to you yet.
iMattCi89 11 months ago
@iMattCi89 of course they are, like Daleks.
hilltree402 11 months ago
@hilltree402 One of the reasons many people are Christian or religious is because a miracle has been done to them. Some simply can't be solved by science, like when a guy gets shot point-blank and regains consciousness with just light bruising. Or how a paper cut heals within minutes without any sign of it being there.
iMattCi89 11 months ago
@iMattCi89 and of course you have examples of these stories? I jumped off a 80 story building and only sprained my ankle...really, it happened...trust me, or rather the "miracle" that god provided.
hilltree402 11 months ago
@hilltree402 The first story I read in a magazine. The second story was my own. I distinctly saw and felt a paper cut caused by my Subway wrapper and blood was starting to ooze out. I said a quick prayer and when we left there was only a dull ache but there wasn't any cut there anymore.
iMattCi89 11 months ago
@iMattCi89 way to go Harry Potter, or did they use "the force"?
hilltree402 11 months ago
@hilltree402 It's called prayer, and you should try it. It can't hurt, right? It's no loss to you to try praying as though you really mean it.
iMattCi89 11 months ago
@iMattCi89 btw, EGW would say you too are being controlled by Satan with all the non-approved movies your watching...congrats to you for following a mind-controlling, false, third grade educated "prophet."
hilltree402 11 months ago
@hilltree402 I'm sure she would and I'd agree with her. It's something I'm struggling with and I don't deny it. She isn't mind-controlling (all she spoke about can be found in principle in the Bible), and you can't call her a false prophet. In order to call her a false prophet, you'd have to believe that there really is such a thing as a prophet in the first place. You don't believe in the Bible and its testimony, so why would you believe God exists or that He has messengers?
iMattCi89 11 months ago
@iMattCi89 because something had to start whatever you call this we live in, but not specifically our planet and most certainly not in seven days. Okay, so the Bible is mind controlling and because of it EGW has been to the people that follow her. You are right though, unless you take very vague guesses that happen to correlate to a future event and call it being a prophecy (or better yet write that the prophecy happened just because you want it to have) there are no prophets.
hilltree402 11 months ago
@iMattCi89 also, Jesus himself supposedly said he'd return within the generation (20-25 years) of the people he was talking to. Luckily, everyone knows the Bible isn't supposed to be a word for word account of what went on 2k years ago.
hilltree402 11 months ago
the reason the SDA cult (who indeed does alienate people for not totally agreeing with them...I know personally) hangs on to EGW so tightly is that if they don't have her as a prophet they aren't "THE REMNANT CHURCH"...and then the whole thing unravels, which it should! Why? Because at least one pastor (David Asscherick) lies about the Bible being "internally coherent"...it's not, by a long shot.
hilltree402 1 year ago
@hilltree402 That's called generalization. I personally take offense that you judge all of us by the ones you've been exposed to. If I come across 20 Americans in my life and they turn out to be snobbish, should I judge that all Americans are snobbish? If anything, they go against what Mrs White said about not purposely alienating ourselves from other ppl. I have friends who don't believe as I do, but we're still friends.
And how is the Bible not internally coherent?
iMattCi89 11 months ago
@iMattCi89 you all follow a "prophet" who wrote every other church is under the control of Satan...that's generalizing in a very un-Christian way. You all claim that friend statement, I've yet to see it in action. The Bible isn't internally coherent because barely any of the stories about Jesus agree with each other, nor do many of the statements about the "laws" of the Old Testament. For example: the penalty for breaking the Sabbath is death, but the 6th "law" is though shall not kill.
hilltree402 11 months ago
@hilltree402 Could you tell me where she wrote they're under Satan's control? How many of our churches have you visited? We're not alone in this, in that other denominations have churches that are hostile while they have other churches that are friendly. As for the stories not agreeing, I disagree, b/c I don't see the writers perfect, I see the teachings perfect. As for the penalty of breaking the Sabbath, are you aware that technically breaking any of them is to be paid by death?
iMattCi89 11 months ago
@iMattCi89 I could, but that would further your apparent laziness about your "prophet." Look into it yourself. Okay, I'd guess you all better figure out what kind of kool aide you like....death be upon you, but only because you just said so.
hilltree402 11 months ago
@hilltree402 I asked because I was wondering if you referred to one that was taken out of context. I know of one in Spiritual Gifts Vol 1 p189. However, context first; it was a vision of the 2nd Angel's message, not of the present. And as for it reaching fulfillment, I can say that within my circle of friends (non-Adventist), Satan's influence is obvious. The reality of the Bible's claims are doubted, others nonchalant about it, and some don't even want to read the Bible.
iMattCi89 11 months ago
@hilltree402 I want to clarify, that breaking any of the 10 commandments is sin (1 John 3:4). That's why I said breaking any of them results in death. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). God told the Israelites to stone the transgressors because they were His representatives. When a judge in court sentences a person to death, is it considered murder? Not in the eyes of the law, b/c it's a judicial act. When God killed someone or ordered some1 killed, it was judicial and righteous.
iMattCi89 11 months ago
@iMattCi89 you and that idiot from Kansas should get together, you'd make a wonderful couple: "I don't hate fags, God does!"
hilltree402 11 months ago
@hilltree402 This has nothing to do with hate. Furthermore, I have a distaste for ppl like the WBC who think God hates gays because He said it's an a perversion. I don't hate gays. What I said about the Decalogue is something inevitable. Jesus would not have needed to sacrifice Himself if He were not a righteous and just God. Being Love also means needing to take a stand for the sake of your loved ones.
iMattCi89 11 months ago
@iMattCi89 Yes, it does have to do with hate: do as I say or you're dead, and that goes for everything I "created." Oh, right, so now Jesus is a God...or is it that he was the son of God, or God himself, or God have a mental episode...dang this is confusing. If people were taking a stand in the way you are saying, they were taking a stand against God...another thing that's not supposed to get you real far in this imaginary realm.
hilltree402 11 months ago
@hilltree402 There's a logic problem here; You associate "obey or perish" as being hate. I think you don't really believe that. Is it hateful when parents tell their kids, "Do not touch the iron or you'll definitely get hurt"? The nature of sin is that it separates us from God, the source of life. It's intrinsic. What you're arguing against is like saying it's retarded to think a square can't be a square if it's shaped into a circle. It's an intrinsic thing, its very nature.
iMattCi89 11 months ago
@iMattCi89 your "logic" is as stupid as the other SDA idiots I've met: God is the cause for the punishment, not an "iron." What you're saying is that the thing will hurt you, not the actual parent. The nature of sin is the nature of being human (or any other animal for that matter)...take God out of it and you'd be the same exact person: brainwashed.
hilltree402 11 months ago
@hilltree402 Ok, so why not protest cruelty against the legal system if it punishes you via fines? The nature of sin isn't what God intended. He made humans perfect. It was not His fault sin entered. At the heart of this, it isn't about God punishing, it's about facing the accountability of the choices we make. Should a serial murderer and rapist be free to roam the streets unpunished for his crimes?
iMattCi89 11 months ago
@iMattCi89 actually, I do if the fines are simply there to make payroll and quotas for the month. Humans have never been perfect, and never will be: we're animals just like every other and act to better our own situations, even if that hurts other people. Release serial murderers and rapists? I suppose, if you think they should be forgiven...and that is what the Bible teaches.
hilltree402 11 months ago
@hilltree402 God doesn't punish because He likes it. After Adam fell, he should not have lived. He stayed alive because God kept him alive. The result of sin is death, not b/c God wants it, but b/c it cuts us off from Him who gives life. He only punishes the wicked after every1 has chosen where they stand; with Him or Satan. And it isn't 4ever. Hell doesn't burn 4ever, it burns only until the appropriate judgment is complete. God can't let them continue living b/c
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@hilltree402 cont'd: b/c they choose not to accept the way out of the result sin. He gave them years and decades to make the choice, but they choose to continue to be separate from Him and even if He gave them more time, they would not change. So in mercy, He ends their lives. And in justice they suffer for the bad that they did. Satan burns the longest b/c his evil is the greatest. All will turn to dust and become ashes; what was supposed to have happened at the beginning but God withheld.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
@iMattCi89 whatever, go on believing in invisible deities...just be sure to check yourself into a nut house before they do it for you. I know the SDA church tries to sell books claiming Satan is actually a person here on earth, that being the Pope because he happens to wear red among a few other things. Most of a lot of colleges wear red every Saturday in the fall...are they "Satan" too?
hilltree402 10 months ago
@hilltree402 Don't say "know" because that's not what is taught; the pope system used to be the agent of Satan and that's obvious in history through the persecution of all who believed in justification through faith alone, which is entirely what the book of Romans is about. The vicarius filii dei doesn't hold water and was built around a claim that some1 saw it. That name isn't why the papacy was the antichrist; it's what they did and proclaimed.
iMattCi89 10 months ago
that fat guy is annoying how he won't shut up and is always interrupting.
CaribbeanSkies 1 year ago
Ellen g white is seen as above Christ. I used to attend SDA and have seen the obessession that the denomination has with this false prophet. The very existence of the SDA functions health where Christ becomes nothing more than a footnote. Ellen g white started this health obession and this sickness has spread amongst them
smoothpianist 1 year ago
>djconklin, DaedelusNone, dconklin58 is
Don't know the second. I told you before that I lost the passwords.
dconklin58 1 year ago
I believe that unless God had told Ellen specifically that "this particular belief is wrong", Ellen White could and did make small mistakes. The reason being that Ellen based some writings from sources from authoritative sources in greek, hebrew, history, etc. of her time. But even those guys got it wrong. Only her "thus saith the Lord" moments were completely infallible in doctrine because that was directly from God.
iMattCi89 1 year ago
Beliefs firmly cherished by EGW before 1844, (from book Life Sketches); baptism by immersion only, no eternal hell, doctrine of soul-sleep at death, each co-incidentlaly became early SDA doctrine.
After 1844, Sabbath keeping and Sanctuary Doctrine became SDA doctrine once she put her "I saw in vision" stamp on both beliefs.
EGW did create and or validate current fundamental SDA beliefs
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy You really don't know the history... those "pre-1844" beliefs were those of the Millerites. The Millerites after 1844 who believed the time was correct became known as Adventists (not Seventh-Day Adventist). That was when Hiram Edson received light on the nature of "Sanctuary" in Daniel 8:14. Ellen's vision about it came after Edson's realization. The Sanctuary doctrine did not come from Ellen. And Ellen was actually very reluctant abt the Sabbath at first. Get history right..
iMattCi89 1 year ago
@iMattCi89You really don't know history...Ellen & James were Millerites until the second failed date of Christ's return 1843 & 1844. E. & J. readily accepted the 6-6 PM sabbath keeping doctrine from Bates & the gift of tongues & interpretation and EGW's own vision. That left approx 50,000 first day Adventists who did not believe in the Sabbath, her visions and further time setting. Further time setting was carried out by a very small splinter group outside of both of the above parties.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy where did you read that she set another time after Oct 22 1844? And yes, they were Millerites until Oct 22 1844. She got her visions after that.
iMattCi89 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy If you re-read my post I didn't say EGW set further times after '44. The Adventists not connected to EGW & her group concluded after a major conference to not accept three things; the 7th day sabbath, EGW's visions, and further time setting...not by her but by the fringe groups on both sides as mentioned. This was the only thing both Adventist groups agreed upon after 1844; that further time setting was foolishness. EGW spoke out strongly against further time setting after 1844.
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@iMattCi89 The only problem EGW had re: the sabbath was that nearly a decade after her vision, Andrews presented his paper indicating sunset to sunset was the correct time. This is what she had a hard time accepting....after making such a test of the sabbath they discovered that the had been observing it incorrectly for years based on lack of proper Bible study. Even after a "vision' most SDA's were keeping Bates time instead of Bible time..very embarrassing
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy No, not embarrassing, they just weren't convicted of it. As for Ellen having an issue with sunset-sunset, where is it from?
iMattCi89 1 year ago
@iMattCi89 "The sunset time was now accepted by nearly all present at the 1855 conference. Joseph Bates and Ellen White were exceptions, both holding to the six o'clock position." Arthur White, Ellen G. White, Messenger to the Remnant, pp. 35-36.
"I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel, 'Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet." Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 116
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy ooo thanx! I looked it up in Testimonies Vol1. But I see her vision's right. She did resist, but the angel gave her a reason why this thing happened was legit. Unless the Lord convicts you of a truth, it will fly over ur head. Truth isn't something you read, but what the Word says and the Holy Spirit convicts your heart of it.
iMattCi89 1 year ago
@iMattCi89 Also, a letter written by James White is worth reading. It's entitled;
J.W. to "My Dear Brother," July 2, 1848, Berlin, Connecticut. One notable comment by James White is: "Satan would get us from this time [6 PM-6PM]. But let us stand fast in the Sabbath as God has given it to us and Brother Bates. God has raised up Brother Bates to give this truth. I should have more faith in his opinion than any other man's."
BuckLakeBoy 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy It may have been so, but that's the same thing that happened with why the Great Disappointment happened. Using the light they had, they thought "even" meant "6pm", and in the Millerite time they used the light they had and interpreted "sanctuary" to be earth.
iMattCi89 1 year ago
@BuckLakeBoy The point being that light is progressive. Not every bit of light is shown at once. It's no surprise James didn't support it at first.
iMattCi89 1 year ago
SDA folks, you don't need Ellen G White! You have Jesus, the Bible, & the Holy Ghost. Quit following a prophet. Only Christ, Only Scripture....Look to Jesus, the author & finisher of your faith.
windbisquit25 1 year ago
@windbisquit25 what you say makes it sound as though we don't believe Jesus is the only author and finisher of our faith. He is our only author&finisher of our faith. To deny the inspiration of Ellen White is to deny the working of the Holy Ghost in our movement in history. But if any one who claims to be a SDA raises her to be equal with the Bible, he/she is expressing his/her own opinion.
iMattCi89 1 year ago
the bible interpret itself, you don't interpret the bible with any other book. that's the basic believes of SDA, like in any other religions people infiltrate, and try to take people to the extreme, example trying to make EGW another mary
hey this happen in every religion. so basically instead of pointing with one finger why don't we examine ourselves first
jhopeh84 1 year ago
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>so a "false conjecture" would negate that "incomplete evidence"
Nope.
>and would therefore support exactly what I said.
Non sequitur.
dconklin58 1 year ago
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dconklin58 1 year ago
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dconklin58 1 year ago
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>They have TWO sources of truth and authority.
That would be to against what Ellen White taught. So, we don't; we only have one: Christ!
dconklin58 1 year ago
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>so a "false conjecture" would negate that "incomplete evidence"
Nope.
>and would therefore support exactly what I said.
Non sequitur.
dconklin58 1 year ago
Great video! If Martin were alive today, I believe he'd place SDA's in a cultic status.
They have TWO sources of truth and authority.
Hawgdawgrain 2 years ago
@Hawgdawgrain whatever , Who did he think he was ?
FReinosa 1 year ago
Who are you? This guy was a scholar in the original languages and an expert on cults. Spent his life work doing this.
Hawgdawgrain 1 year ago
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There are lots of claims made about Ellen White. We now know that the following claims are false:
1. That she was a plagiarist.
2. That she plagiarized by paraphrasing.
3. That she was a millionaire.
4. That Fannie Bolton wrote Steps to Christ.
5. That she engaged in "wholesale plagiarism" of Conybeare & Howson.
That's just 5 of 55 that I know of.
If the cause of the critics was so true & right why do they have to lie so much? Does that sound like something Christ would do?
dconklin58 2 years ago
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dconklin58 2 years ago
HAHAH the SDA dude is gettin PWND!!! He constantly is going against HIS OWN QUOTES!!! LMFAO!!!
daciple 2 years ago
@daciple actually he's having trouble with his predecessors, not himself
iMattCi89 1 year ago
djconklin, DaedelusNone, dconklin58 is back with another user name. That's 3 and counting ....
spooteronicus 2 years ago 2
>djconklin, DaedelusNone, dconklin58 is back with another user name. That's 3 and counting ....
The first was mine till I lost the password. The last is mine. Daedulus is someone else (from Wisc?). Now if you knew stylometrics you could compare the various posts to determine authorship. But, you also need posts of 5,000 words or more. Now since you don't have that all you have is amateur-hour guesswork. You should see a therapist & your pastor about your paranoia.
dconklin58 2 years ago
Nice Try ... Perhaps you should see a pastor about your deceit
spooteronicus 2 years ago
>Perhaps you should see a pastor about your deceit
I use facts, you use innuendo.
dconklin58 2 years ago
since a fact is something that can be proven or disproven, then yes, you use facts that have been disproven. I agree
spooteronicus 2 years ago
but an innuendo allows person to draw their own conclusion as led by the Holy Spirit. I would prefer the innuendo over YOUR set of "facts"
spooteronicus 2 years ago
>as led by the Holy Spirit.
There's the key.
dconklin58 2 years ago
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dconklin58 2 years ago
LOL if you think that adding 25 cent words to your sentences make you an intellectual, you are sadly mistaken. And using the phrase "falsely conjectured" is a double negative since a conjecture already assumes lack of proof, then you have just stated that my lack of proof is a false accusation. So, thanks again for supporting my arguments. You should stop now, unless you enjoy looking like the south end of a north facing horse.?!
spooteronicus 2 years ago
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dconklin58 2 years ago
and so a "false conjecture" would negate that "incomplete evidence" and would therefore support exactly what I said. Thanks again
spooteronicus 2 years ago
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dconklin58 2 years ago
> Nope.
GOOD ANSWER !!! LOL
spooteronicus 2 years ago
"falsely conjectured" At least my typo's are not intentional. You actually MEANT to say "falsely conjectured" ... LOL ... quit it ... my stomach is hurting from laughter.
spooteronicus 2 years ago
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dconklin58 2 years ago
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dconklin58 2 years ago
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@spooteronicus: "djconklin, DaedelusNone, dconklin58 is back with another user name. That's 3 and counting ...."
I told you that I lost my password and so had to create a new account. I don't know who DaedulusNone is/was. You assumed too much and/or your paranoia is showing.
dconklin58 1 year ago
Not once have read anything of Mrs White that contridicts scripture. I WAS a disbeliever, but what I can tell you is this, that if this Video was done today and not in the 80s it would be a different tune. Mrs White warned about the evils of Freemasonry and the coming NWO and how the Pope would eventually control the entire world; in the 1800s! No one today can deny that something is happening. The Great Controversy by White is like reading a contemporary news paper.
hopgoblin1 2 years ago
well, ellen g white plagerised the great controversy from another book that was made by heughes, this book was made before the great controversy.
speedjunkyification 2 years ago
>ellen g white plagerised the great controversy from another book that was made by heughes,
No evidence to support that.
dconklin58 2 years ago
Those views were held by protestants all over the world, they did not originate with Mrs White. as for contradicting scripture, there are multiple examples, one being her claim that all of Jesus' brothers were older than He was but the Bible says Jesus is born of a virgin.
spooteronicus 2 years ago
>her claim that all of Jesus' brothers were older than He was but the Bible says Jesus is born of a virgin.
From Joseph's previous wife.
dconklin58 2 years ago
And she was mentioned where in the Bible???
spooteronicus 2 years ago
Since all of EGW's writings can be "supported from the Bible" ... I'd like to see where the Bible mentioned Joseph's previous wife ...
spooteronicus 2 years ago
The Debate seems a little one side it, and as the DR. Johnsson says all he bings up are quotes of SDA´s, what are they debating SDA doctrine or what people in the SDA Church say and do.
pabloezekiel 2 years ago
Also, your use of Isaiah 66:22,23 is completely out of context.
The local context begins in Isaiah 65 and mentions children dying at 100 and the Levitcal Priesthood being reinstituted in the "new heavens and new earth".
This is so clear that its application is local to Israel and does mean Heaven itself.
You either take it all or abandon the text as proof for the Sabbath in Heaven. No cutting and pasting.
Hawgdawgrain 2 years ago
So you believe the Gentiles kept the Sabbath because they went to "church".
Is going to church keeping the Sabbath holy?
You may have misunderstood my question. Where is an example of the Gentiles keeping the Sabbath holy?
Hawgdawgrain 2 years ago
Test
Hawgdawgrain 2 years ago
More importantly, they found mercy through faith in His eyes. In other words ppl can be ruthless in their judgments.
deborahbetty58 2 years ago
Just a good thing, it is Yah who judges the heart and tests the mind and gives accordingly. ( Jer. 17:9, 10). For no-body is infallible. Even Lucifer who was made perfect wasn't infallible (Ezek. 28:15). Neither was Adam, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Jacob, Moses, Rachab, David, Solomon, Mary, Peter. Paul etc. etc. . Yet there were all beloved by Yah and He called them friend, prophet, apostle, child, son, daughter.
deborahbetty58 2 years ago
i feel sorry for the advantist guy. he is cornered in every angle.
lyonellelion 2 years ago
Hint: Walter Martin's argument was not "you have to become an SDA before you accept my conclusions about Adventists".
CervantHrt 2 years ago
Conclusion: Jonah watched with great anticipation for God to destroy Ninevah. He preached only doom to them. Then he is very very unhappy AFTER he finds out that Jeremiah 18 principle is still overriding his prediction of certain doom.
Your failed idea that your argument must rest on a denial of Jeremiah 18's conditional prophecy principle -- is not helping your argument at all.
I never made the case that if Jer 18 is true - then you must accept Ellen White. Try something else.
CervantHrt 2 years ago
Conclusion: Jonah knew God would relent, even before he left his home.The Bible is clear on this point. God gave 40 days for Ninevah to repent. The Bible is also clear on this point.. Ninevites also knew God was merciful and turned away from their violence. The Bible is clear here also. Ellen White's prophecy failed without any hint of an explanation as to why. End of story.
spooteronicus 2 years ago
Not a single gripe listed by the comments so far - is "new" for Walter Martin. It all appeals to possibly complaints already available to Martin when he published his book on Cults and stated that the Adventists were clearly NOT a cult.
The point remains.
CervantHrt 2 years ago
A true prophet:
* Must pass all Biblical tests of a prophet, mainly Deuteronomy 18 which states the prophet's words must come to pass.
* If there is a condition for the failure of a prophesy, then the condition must be stated when the prophesy was made, not after the failure as an excuse to explain the error.
* Must agree 100% with the written word of God and must never deny the deity of Jesus Christ.
spooteronicus 2 years ago
spooteronicus 2 years ago
* Denied scripture that says Elijah was fed by ravens
- Where is the Biblical support?
* Said that an angel shut the door to Noah's ark
- Where is the Biblical support
* Said that the serpent plucked fruit from the tree and placed it in Eve's hand
- Where is the Biblical support?
* Said that the Jewish leaders pressured Joseph and Mary because of Jesus
- Where is the Biblical support?
* Said that the Sabbath is the Seal of God and not the Holy Spirit?
- Where is the Biblical support?
spooteronicus 2 years ago
spooteronicus 2 years ago
And of course this question. The Bible states plainly that no man knows the day and hour of Jesus' return. Jesus himself did not know this when speaking with His disciples. Jesus said NO MAN knows this, not even the angels in heaven, only the Father. but Ellen White has put herself in such a high position to claim to know the actual day and hour of Jesus' return in a vision. And subsequently FORGOT it after the vision was over.
spooteronicus 2 years ago
An obvious tactic to try to prove her authority. She can remember "great details" of many of her visions and write them out maticulously. But now you have the most important event in human history and she could not remember the time? Did God supposedly give this information to her and cause her to not be able to remember it afterward? No legitimate prophet in all history has actually claimed that God Himself gave them the day and hour of Christ's return.
spooteronicus 2 years ago
Ellen White stole this supposed privelege, conveniently forgot the time and used this "vision" to further establish her supposed authority. If she had such privilege from our Lord God Almighty, then she would not have prophesied falsely of Christ's return in 1856. Why would God give her such high privilege and then let her prophesy falsely about Christ's return? These failures are casting a bad light on the nature of my Lord and Saviour. Blame is put to God??!! and God's people for her failure
spooteronicus 2 years ago
Oh the ninevites whining that Jonah prophesied falsely that Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days!
(Hint: Jonah himself complained that the city was not destroyed in 40 days).
Suggestion - pick a point to complain about that does not also cross Bible prophets.
For now - the Bible students all know that Jeremiah 18 establishes the principle of conditional prophecy.
CervantHrt 2 years ago
It hs already been established that the condition for Jonah's prophecy was repentance, if you remember. And Jpnah complained because he WANTED the Nenivites destroyed for their son so God purposefully showed mercy to teach Jonah the principle of mercy. It is so obvious that God had repentance as the condition for saving and showing mercy to Ninevah, that is plainly stated in the Book of Jonah. So, AGAIN you fail to show Ellen White's stated condition !!! NICE TRY
Hint - try again
spooteronicus 2 years ago
Jonah did not say "repent or be destroyed".
Instead - he preached "yet 40 days and Ninevah WILL be destroyed"
Jonah even whined when Ninevah wast destroyed!
Jer 18 - God demonstrates His purpose in giving conditional prophecy BOTH in the case of blessing AND in curse.
A point you keep conveniently ignoring.
CervantHrt 2 years ago
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spooteronicus 2 years ago
Jonah whined because he WANTED them destroyed. And he didn;t want to preach the message to Ninevah because he knew God would be merciful ... It is obvious that throughout the book of Jonah that the themes were repentance and mercy ... The sinful people of Nenivah even knew that repentance was part of the equation ...
Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Why do you think the 40 days were given? Answer that?
spooteronicus 2 years ago
Oh why did God let Jonah prophesy falsely that Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days...?? Why do you keep circling back to tha failed rant?
CervantHrt 2 years ago
that comment is just laughable
spooteronicus 2 years ago
the 40 days were given for repepntance. Even the ninevites knew that "
Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Do you think God gave hem 40 days just to watch them suffer grief so He could finally let them have it???
If that was the case God would wipe them away in 1 day, not 40 ... Wow, the extent that you are willing to wrest the scriptures to protect Ellen White?!
Where is your loyalty?
spooteronicus 2 years ago
Why were the forty days given? Can you even answer that ... did you miss the whole point of the Book of Jonah? Answer that ... why why why were the 40 days given? And answer yet again, WHAT was the condition of EGW's 1856 failure?
spooteronicus 2 years ago
Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jonah 4:2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.
spooteronicus 2 years ago
Incase you missed the obvious (or ignored it on purpose), here is the condition;
Jonah 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them TURN EVERY ONE FROM HIS EVIL WAY, and from the violence that is in their hands.
IF they turn from evil
THEN God would repent and not destroy them
SO AGAIN for the n'th tine ... WHAT was EGW's condition and WHERE was it stated? I keep asking and you never answer
spooteronicus 2 years ago
When one reads the story of Jonah, one extrapoltes the obvious message.
* Jponah is sent to preach theor fate
* Jonah knows God is merciful
* Jonah does not desire for the hated Ninevites
* Jonah runs to Tarshish
* inevites understand that God will relent if the repent
* Jonah knows that God is merciful and wil relent
* 40 days are given for the to "tuen from their evil ways"
* They repent and God relents
* Jonah is not happy and he said he KNEW God would be merciful
spooteronicus 2 years ago
* Jonah whines when God shows mercy because he feels like it was a waste of time to preach destruction because God is merciful
* God uses the gourd to teach Jonah a lesson in caring and mercy.
The Whole Book of Jonah is clear that God will repent of the evil if the people will repent of their evil deeds. an Obvious, plainly stated condition.
BUT, Where is EGW's condition stated? Are you or are you not able to provide it? I think the answer at this point is NO or you would have provided it.
spooteronicus 2 years ago
You name me even one Bible prophecy that failed or that didn't come to pass without there being an understood explanation as to why, and that condition is plainly stated in the Bible. Where in the Bible do we see a case where there was a failure of a prophecy and nobody could explain why the outcome was the way it was? Where idi a prophecy fail and nobody has an answer for it? Because that's waht happened with EGW and SDA's manufactured excuses post de facto
spooteronicus 2 years ago