Ever fond of irony, I am intrigued that while Schoenberg's theory derived from a fallacy, namely the fallacy of composition (the pun is merely coincidental) in his understanding of how music "derives" from the overtone series, not even to mention the innate and cross-cultural human perception of intervals such as 4ths & 5ths -- nonetheless this music is listenable ans thus valid, unless we insist, as some have, that it antiquates all that went before it. That would be hubris.
@ John11inch -- You say this piece is "an absolute MONSTER in regards to its difficulty." The first requirement in learning to play any piece of music is to comprehend it, and, purely technical challenges notwithstanding, I would say this is the first obstacle.
Other than that, I would argue that in this or any other kind of music, motivic sense implies some variety of (I dare say) tonal or modal assumption, how ever brief and transient that spark may be.
Tell me. How am I supposed to appreciate this? I don't understand its significance, its importance, or its intention. When I listen, I just hear notes. The structure completely eludes me. The sound isn't "pleasing" and it feels like it was composed completely mentally. Serialism is so confining to creativity, in my opinion. What am I supposed to be listening for?
@iceflame5 Serial music is difficult. It's hard to appreciate because it doesn't reward expectation. Rather it is designed to thwart all expectation. It's just another system for composing. Tonality was thought by some to be confining to creativity, and that is why composers like Schoenberg, Webern, Boulez, et. al. decided to experiment with new forms of musical syntax. They found tonality predictable and boring. I don't know if they succeeded but their contribution is important.
Henck's performance of this piece is excellent. The score of the Barraque sonata was full of errors. Henck editing the of score shows total commitment to the intention of the composer. Without the edits, the sonata was unplayable. Every performer of this piece has unquestionably edited the score. I have heard every existing recording of this piece and the only one with problems is the Loriod version. It's very understandable why she had problems with this piece.
What is it about Herbert Henck you don't like? (I'm not defending him just want to get your opinion). I'll choose for myself who to like or dislike but how someone else feels music and in particular an informed persons opinion in music always matters. I humbly ask for yours.
This is quite an amazing work, one of the masterpieces of the "serialism" school, but it is not an easy nut to crack. It took me many times reading the score and listening to begin to get a good feel for it, and I'm glad I did because now I quite enjoy it.
My personal feeling is that this is an overrated work, continuing the romantic/expressionist tradition of excessively sentimental and individualist music in a modernist aesthetic. It doesn't realize the selfless detachment that makes the better modernist works appealing to me.
Actually it's the very conflict between the intellectual rigor of the total serialist format and the overall emotional tone of this work that bothers me. I don't think I'm imagining this, i believe other people have mentioned the expressive qualities of this work in a similar way, although it doesn't seem to be seen as a source of criticism. Personally I feel that the most appealing aspect of musical modernism was its emotionally detached character, which isn't the case here.
A- quantify your notion of this piece's "overall" "emotional" "tone" (please define, expand and/or retract your choice of all three words). Quantify the "expressive" "qualities" (same). Contrast the two phrases as wholes and edit as per necessary by the conclusions drawn therefrom.
B- even if you can, you're disagreeing with Schoenberg, Webern, Berg and Boulez, among others. I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the prime intentions of Serial composition.
Ok, ok, I can see you're going to be a hardass :). In all seriousness though, I don't know how you expect me to quantify things like the emotional content of a piece, not all aspects of music are tangible, it doesn't stop musicians from discussing them.
More to the point I acknowledge that my previous comments were a bit vague, although this was largely to do with the fact that I was trying to keep my comments within 500 characters. Now that I have opened the can of worms...
Upon listening to this piece what strikes me is its emotional intensity, that is to say it is evocative primarily of human emotions. I do not believe that this is purely a subjective interpretation as it seems to be the common view amoungst listeners of Barrque based on what I have read. The reason why this bothers me is twofold, firstly that I feel that this type of musical language is not merely a vehicle for a similar...
I believe I have sufficiently demonstrated why I do not like this piece, whether my reasons are considered valid or not is of no consequence to me or anyone else.
I'm surprised to find their is a biography. Well to know and befriend Foucault he must have had a life. There is so little said about him exactly . Well-I know nothing .Boulez sounds completely more tense .even the silences are weighted and challenging. This is separate tones in space unlike Boulez's early controlled serial many collared thrashings and wild vehemence. Wonderful I think I will find the Woodward rec as well as this .
"you discover that there is a certain coherency in this music. whether you like it or not, it is NOT the same as hitting random keys on the piano."
I agree with you. If you have a finely tuned ears and you spend years studying musical theory, you can tell the difference. Nobody else can, and so they simply won't waste their time agonizing their way through this stuff. If you want music to just be for music students great, but in my experience even music students don't bother to attend
@bbnut You're wrong. This kind of music can be appreciated without formal training. I, for example, fell in love with 'atonal' music when I was in high school, before I had anything other than your basic public school musicianship class, when I learned to listen for the new, instead of the affirmational, expecting almost nothing from the music but what it gives. I remember the eureka moment when I finally 'got' it. I felt like I had broken out of a listening cage (while listening to Cage).
@bbnut I didn't need to know anything about serial techniques to learn how to like serialism. I had to unlearn everything else I thought I knew about what beautiful music was. Most people today won't pay attention to what they don't get at first, and ignore the opportunity to elevate and expand their means of perception.
I am new to this form of music which is serialism if I'm not wrong...I've already been through Ornstein and I'd never think I would hear something like this.It doesn't make sense much like Sorabji...Sounds intriguing nevertheless.
So Loriod is passed away too now. The schools are full so I'm sure not a word she uttered is gone. This is wonderful .I 'd like to get to the point where I could tell a diff piano or pianist playing this.Aimard is very sensitive it seems every note has a dif dynamic. Same goes for Chen ! Amazing !
The difference between this performance and Henck's is striking. As for the timbral characteristics of each, I 'see' Henck's as a light 'pink', whereas this one appears a 'mist' - various translucent shades, though bright overall.
The latter is scintillating. The former is encompassing. I enjoy both.
I am truly a layman of musical matters, may it be "modernist" or "classical" music. I cannot speak of this piece's merits or its due points of criticism, then again I believe neither is actually important in regards to what I want to say about it: what I find interesting and what I also verily enjoy is that it seems to me as a pastiche or collage of many "routine" or "standard" lines of melody or succession of notes from a very broad spectrum of European piano music of the last two-hundred years
"This is one of the most important pieces in the piano repertiore modern or non..."
No, it really isnt. Goldberg Variations, K333, Apassionata, Chopin's 3rd Sonata, Prokofiev's 8th; these are examples of "important" pieces, modern or non.
thanks for the posting this. it's the only recording of this sonata i don't have
the Loriod, Helffer and Litwin are poor; the Woodward is very good (good enough for Barraque to promise him a 2nd sonata, which he died before he could write) and the Henck is good too, not as passionate as Woodward but with greater clarity in the phrasing. i'm undecided about pi-chien chen...
I'd be highly interested in hearing Helffer's, as that's the only one I don't have. I didn't like Woodward's much due to the inaccuracy issues, and Henck's I found boring, not to mention the tone of his piano is horrible.
@John11inch I'm impressed that you know the sonata well enough to pick up on inaccuracies in the execution. Also: the tone of Henck's piano is horrible? I found that disk to be one of the best engineered piano recordings I've ever heard, very clear and unmuddy. Perhaps the tone is little dry for some tastes, but it's ideal for this piece. (tbh I'd love to hear Debussy played like this - would make a nice contrast to the usual 'swimming through mud' approach...)
Why do i love this and the Boulez 2nd sonate. Must hear the third now that it's out there. This music sounds like the world we live in and some part of all that is in us.This would befor many impossible to memorize ,timings,dynamics every note I will do Webern's Variations.das ist ENUG!
Very interesting! Since you mentioned Boulez's Second, I shall say that , on a first listening, I find Barraque's sonata more expressive and compelling.
I can see you are overwhelmed by the quality of this work to the point of being able to merely sputter guttural superlatives! I know how you feel, and I agree; it *is* a masterpiece.
speaking of monkeys slamming on keyboards: i picked up the complete works of barraque the other day, which included the infamous Litwin recording of this sonata. OH MY BASTARD GOD IT'S BAD. it's like listening to someone sight-reading it for the first time, and it's slooooow, i.e. his 1st movt (marked 'tres rapide' btw - !) is a whole 10 minutes longer than henck's
@AntiProUltra You are reffering to Stephan I believe? He was a friend of mine at school but I never got a chance to really hear him play anything. Perhaps I now know why. As I recall he didn't play much for anyone at the time that I remember.
I wish you would not waste time leaving comments on music you do not understand, because it's equivalent to a monkey just slamming on a computer keyboard and contains no value.
I used to have that attitude about music like this. but when you actually do go and hit random keys on the piano wanting to produce such music, you'll find that your interpretation of this music as being completely random is a false interpretation..and if you actually take the time to HEAR this music, and not just casually listen, you discover that there is a certain coherency in this music. whether you like it or not, it is NOT the same as hitting random keys on the piano.
@NapSeason its not--the rhythm and the notes are mathematically determined. However, it still SOUNDS random and structureless-so who cares about the math? This is music-it should sound good right?
@verystacy I agree to a certain extent. I'm on the fence regarding serialism. I think it can be enjoyable when used in certain contexts, but to me, music as an art is first and foremost; the math is there to make the art possible. When it becomes all about the math, it's not art anymore. It's not a human expression, it's just notes derived from nature.
Such an argument is inconsequential to the mode in which a piece was written. Gauging whether a piece is, by your qualifications, "good", or whether it is just "based on math", is merely a way to phrase quality or lack of quality (as you will be determining the second from the first, which is therefore circular). It shouldn't matter whether the piece is a serial composition or not; it's either good or not (in your opinion). It's art either way; it's just good or bad art =P
@NorrisChuckling What's wrong with notes derived from nature?! Nature is all around us, what is alien about that?! I agree that maths shouldn't be the ruleing factor of music / the essence, but this music is clearly not just maths. On a side note, maths is a human discovery / invention, so why shouldn't this express human emotion?
i'm baffled by all these critical comments about the henck recording, which while being different in approach to pi-chien chen's (it has a more epic feel to it), is excellent
Ah yes, the Barraque sonata. I've spent many intimidated hours reading this score with the very few recordings that have ever been available. Certainly not for the uninitiated, but for those with a keen ear for serial composition, this one stands very near the pinnacle of perfection. And Pi-Hsien Chen does a splendid job here. I would love to hear Yvonne Loriod's premier recording, but it is very rare, and unless a complete retrospective of her recordings is re-released, nigh impossible a find
I nave the Loriod recording, and it's a rather lumbering, passionless account. Overall my favorite is the Claude Helffer, which brings out the last drops of ecstasy and despair in the piece. Henck comes close, but is marred by the grotesquely long caesuras in the first part. (I'll have to get out Peak.) Woodward's is the least impressive: really not the piece at all, but closer to root canal by a dentist trying to make time for a round of golf.
interesting to hear about loriod's barraqué -- i was excited to track down her boulez 2nd a while back, but it was kindof a letdown. her messiaen might not be definitive (with the possible exception of catalogue d'oiseaux and some of the other bird music) but it's really powerful stuff. is that all she could play?
recently read andré hodeir's bizarre manifesto-cum-book where he raves about barraqué for some 40-50 pages. trying to revisit this piece, but i'm still undecided...
He actually has the best recording in my opinion. Articles have been written about his rendition and mentioned how diabolical his playing was in the sonata. The main problem is his lack of playing rhythms accurately. He doesn't take rhythm into account too much, but then again the "tres rapide" tempo does not allow for much rest. He literally flies through the beginning of the piece, completely owning it. I personally don't care for the complaints.
Also, you said that Barraque was known as an electronic composer. In my readings, I've only come across mention of one electronic piece by Barraque. Perhaps you know of others? I would love to hear these if you have any recordings.
Thanks for posting. I worked on this Sonata for a few months when I was in college. Can't say that I got far with it. The rhythms are impossible to count. Anyway, I was wondering why you said to avoid Henck's recording? I found it a noteworthy attempt at interpreting this piece, which is saying alot.
this music is beautiful only on paper
MrLuizSinho 1 week ago
@MrLuizSinho
Who said that music has to be beautiful?
John11inch 1 week ago
sooo......wheres the development?
mpetaia90 2 weeks ago
@mpetaia90
That's like asking where the trombone is in a Beethoven piano sonata. The question doesn't make sense, because the music doesn't presume to have any.
John11inch 1 week ago
Ever fond of irony, I am intrigued that while Schoenberg's theory derived from a fallacy, namely the fallacy of composition (the pun is merely coincidental) in his understanding of how music "derives" from the overtone series, not even to mention the innate and cross-cultural human perception of intervals such as 4ths & 5ths -- nonetheless this music is listenable ans thus valid, unless we insist, as some have, that it antiquates all that went before it. That would be hubris.
roundtheblock1 3 months ago
@ John11inch -- You say this piece is "an absolute MONSTER in regards to its difficulty." The first requirement in learning to play any piece of music is to comprehend it, and, purely technical challenges notwithstanding, I would say this is the first obstacle.
Other than that, I would argue that in this or any other kind of music, motivic sense implies some variety of (I dare say) tonal or modal assumption, how ever brief and transient that spark may be.
roundtheblock1 3 months ago
Tell me. How am I supposed to appreciate this? I don't understand its significance, its importance, or its intention. When I listen, I just hear notes. The structure completely eludes me. The sound isn't "pleasing" and it feels like it was composed completely mentally. Serialism is so confining to creativity, in my opinion. What am I supposed to be listening for?
iceflame5 3 months ago
@iceflame5 Serial music is difficult. It's hard to appreciate because it doesn't reward expectation. Rather it is designed to thwart all expectation. It's just another system for composing. Tonality was thought by some to be confining to creativity, and that is why composers like Schoenberg, Webern, Boulez, et. al. decided to experiment with new forms of musical syntax. They found tonality predictable and boring. I don't know if they succeeded but their contribution is important.
Shanktorsion 2 months ago 2
I'd like a copy of the score...so that I can have a go too....anyone know where I can get one?
krisking2 3 months ago
@krisking2
PM me your e-mail address.
John11inch 3 months ago
@John11inch why him and not me? :(
kranxta 2 days ago
@krisking2
MA CI AVETE ROTTO I COGLIONI CON QUESTA IMMONDIZIA!
volo560 2 months ago
@joshuasantangelo
What a coincidence! I get the exact same impression from your comment. Except that you can't write, either.
John11inch 3 months ago 8
Barraque Obama.
MEpianist 4 months ago 4
Roger Woodward's amazing performance of this piece has been extinguished on Youtube.
quelbop 4 months ago
This music makes me confused %o
100jllp 7 months ago
Henck's performance of this piece is excellent. The score of the Barraque sonata was full of errors. Henck editing the of score shows total commitment to the intention of the composer. Without the edits, the sonata was unplayable. Every performer of this piece has unquestionably edited the score. I have heard every existing recording of this piece and the only one with problems is the Loriod version. It's very understandable why she had problems with this piece.
jdbrown371 7 months ago
What is it about Herbert Henck you don't like? (I'm not defending him just want to get your opinion). I'll choose for myself who to like or dislike but how someone else feels music and in particular an informed persons opinion in music always matters. I humbly ask for yours.
jdbrown371 8 months ago
This is quite an amazing work, one of the masterpieces of the "serialism" school, but it is not an easy nut to crack. It took me many times reading the score and listening to begin to get a good feel for it, and I'm glad I did because now I quite enjoy it.
eurisko618 8 months ago in playlist Música Clássica/Comteporânea
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This reminds me of Revolution 9, by the Beatles, or of Cage's 4:33: both pieces can be considered as art (personnaly I don't), but not as music.
joorgeee22 9 months ago
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joorgeee22 9 months ago
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joorgeee22 9 months ago
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joorgeee22 9 months ago
Is that the score we're looking at?
jek21 10 months ago 57
@jek21
No. That is a painting by Pollock.
John11inch 9 months ago 13
@John11inch Well, that's just great............now I'm dying of laughter.
Thanks a lot for these uploads.
TheGlassDot 5 months ago
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@jek21, I wouldn't be surprised it if were.
PAGANlNl 9 months ago
I can't work out whether this is music or comedy
Londoner1001 10 months ago 8
@Londoner1001
I'm having no trouble discerning the fact that your response is neither.
John11inch 10 months ago 40
@John11inch Finally, some wit on Youtube.
86rocker 10 months ago 2
@Nightwatchman2792796
"Liturgy are faggots."
Nightwatchman2792796 8 hours ago
You should stick to these types of critiques.
metalhead369 10 months ago
@metalhead369
I don't approve of the word "faggots" being used as a derogatory.
John11inch 10 months ago
My personal feeling is that this is an overrated work, continuing the romantic/expressionist tradition of excessively sentimental and individualist music in a modernist aesthetic. It doesn't realize the selfless detachment that makes the better modernist works appealing to me.
Nightwatchman2792796 11 months ago
@Nightwatchman2792796
I don't see how such an opinion could be commensurate with the form of composition (total serialism). Could you elaborate?
John11inch 11 months ago
@John11inch
Actually it's the very conflict between the intellectual rigor of the total serialist format and the overall emotional tone of this work that bothers me. I don't think I'm imagining this, i believe other people have mentioned the expressive qualities of this work in a similar way, although it doesn't seem to be seen as a source of criticism. Personally I feel that the most appealing aspect of musical modernism was its emotionally detached character, which isn't the case here.
Nightwatchman2792796 11 months ago
A- quantify your notion of this piece's "overall" "emotional" "tone" (please define, expand and/or retract your choice of all three words). Quantify the "expressive" "qualities" (same). Contrast the two phrases as wholes and edit as per necessary by the conclusions drawn therefrom.
B- even if you can, you're disagreeing with Schoenberg, Webern, Berg and Boulez, among others. I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the prime intentions of Serial composition.
John11inch 11 months ago
@John11inch
Ok, ok, I can see you're going to be a hardass :). In all seriousness though, I don't know how you expect me to quantify things like the emotional content of a piece, not all aspects of music are tangible, it doesn't stop musicians from discussing them.
More to the point I acknowledge that my previous comments were a bit vague, although this was largely to do with the fact that I was trying to keep my comments within 500 characters. Now that I have opened the can of worms...
Nightwatchman2792796 10 months ago
@John11inch
I suppose there's no turning back, so here goes.
Upon listening to this piece what strikes me is its emotional intensity, that is to say it is evocative primarily of human emotions. I do not believe that this is purely a subjective interpretation as it seems to be the common view amoungst listeners of Barrque based on what I have read. The reason why this bothers me is twofold, firstly that I feel that this type of musical language is not merely a vehicle for a similar...
Nightwatchman2792796 10 months ago
I believe I have sufficiently demonstrated why I do not like this piece, whether my reasons are considered valid or not is of no consequence to me or anyone else.
Nightwatchman2792796 10 months ago
@Nightwatchman2792796
If your reasoning is fallacious and you don't care, you sure have spent a lot of time trying to convince us to the contrary.
John11inch 10 months ago
@Nightwatchman2792796 nothing of what your wrote do I understand lol
SolsetGuitarist 11 months ago
love stuttering rhythm
Bagas 11 months ago
this shit is a motherfucker
GanjaGabe 11 months ago 3
I'm surprised to find their is a biography. Well to know and befriend Foucault he must have had a life. There is so little said about him exactly . Well-I know nothing .Boulez sounds completely more tense .even the silences are weighted and challenging. This is separate tones in space unlike Boulez's early controlled serial many collared thrashings and wild vehemence. Wonderful I think I will find the Woodward rec as well as this .
lovesGenet 11 months ago
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this is the polok of the music... like your image try to say it... its awesome... thanks :)
alekzlenz 1 year ago
this is the polok of the music... like your image try to say it... its awesome... tanks :)
alekzlenz 1 year ago
thanks for the posting! Have you got the "Trois Mélodies" for soprano and piano? (texts from The Song of Solomon, Baudelaire and Rimbaud) thanks
Democratura 1 year ago
Is that the score in the video? *ducks flying plates*
wbuck 1 year ago 3
Not my piece of cake.
chopinsky1810 1 year ago
This is interesting music. I like det energy and diversety. I write music myself and this is inspiring stuff.
Emil54 1 year ago
what year was this made?
witchady14 1 year ago
"you discover that there is a certain coherency in this music. whether you like it or not, it is NOT the same as hitting random keys on the piano."
I agree with you. If you have a finely tuned ears and you spend years studying musical theory, you can tell the difference. Nobody else can, and so they simply won't waste their time agonizing their way through this stuff. If you want music to just be for music students great, but in my experience even music students don't bother to attend
bbnut 1 year ago
@bbnut You're wrong. This kind of music can be appreciated without formal training. I, for example, fell in love with 'atonal' music when I was in high school, before I had anything other than your basic public school musicianship class, when I learned to listen for the new, instead of the affirmational, expecting almost nothing from the music but what it gives. I remember the eureka moment when I finally 'got' it. I felt like I had broken out of a listening cage (while listening to Cage).
LazyTranslator 1 year ago
@bbnut I didn't need to know anything about serial techniques to learn how to like serialism. I had to unlearn everything else I thought I knew about what beautiful music was. Most people today won't pay attention to what they don't get at first, and ignore the opportunity to elevate and expand their means of perception.
LazyTranslator 1 year ago
this touched my soul
CammehYaBams 1 year ago
crystalline playing but i think Woodward gets beneath the notes better.
allegramente5000 1 year ago
I am new to this form of music which is serialism if I'm not wrong...I've already been through Ornstein and I'd never think I would hear something like this.It doesn't make sense much like Sorabji...Sounds intriguing nevertheless.
talonboy5432 1 year ago
So Loriod is passed away too now. The schools are full so I'm sure not a word she uttered is gone. This is wonderful .I 'd like to get to the point where I could tell a diff piano or pianist playing this.Aimard is very sensitive it seems every note has a dif dynamic. Same goes for Chen ! Amazing !
lovesGenet 1 year ago
I read "baroque sonata for piano", lol
gilbertoagostinho 1 year ago 15
That must have been a bit confusing for a moment.
John11inch 1 year ago 6
@gilbertoagostinho same happened to me
Veringetorix 1 year ago
@gilbertoagostinho ahahahahahahahahaha me too!!!
matematicaufes 1 year ago
@gilbertoagostinho lool, me too xD
maxi36440529 10 months ago
i think the performing method for this is.... anyhow slam.
artyzach 1 year ago
The difference between this performance and Henck's is striking. As for the timbral characteristics of each, I 'see' Henck's as a light 'pink', whereas this one appears a 'mist' - various translucent shades, though bright overall.
The latter is scintillating. The former is encompassing. I enjoy both.
aculturemind 1 year ago
the picture is the actual score
Gutelimpa 1 year ago 4
Um, no.
John11inch 1 year ago
I'm quite new to serial music, is there any idea behind it (regarding the time it was written or compositional style)?
guitar17johnny 1 year ago
I am truly a layman of musical matters, may it be "modernist" or "classical" music. I cannot speak of this piece's merits or its due points of criticism, then again I believe neither is actually important in regards to what I want to say about it: what I find interesting and what I also verily enjoy is that it seems to me as a pastiche or collage of many "routine" or "standard" lines of melody or succession of notes from a very broad spectrum of European piano music of the last two-hundred years
Kraehe 1 year ago
This sounds like Stockhausen's "Klavierstück X". I love it!
S0unDOfCha0S 1 year ago
"This is one of the most important pieces in the piano repertiore modern or non..."
No, it really isnt. Goldberg Variations, K333, Apassionata, Chopin's 3rd Sonata, Prokofiev's 8th; these are examples of "important" pieces, modern or non.
verystacy 1 year ago
Sorry but wrong note at 3.47.
Better tidy that up mister Pi-Hsien!
thetheatreofmadness 1 year ago 4
Pi-Hsien Chen is a woman, douchetard.
John11inch 1 year ago 6
@John11inch
nice work
thetheatreofmadness 1 year ago
thanks for the posting this. it's the only recording of this sonata i don't have
the Loriod, Helffer and Litwin are poor; the Woodward is very good (good enough for Barraque to promise him a 2nd sonata, which he died before he could write) and the Henck is good too, not as passionate as Woodward but with greater clarity in the phrasing. i'm undecided about pi-chien chen...
AntiProUltra 2 years ago
I'd be highly interested in hearing Helffer's, as that's the only one I don't have. I didn't like Woodward's much due to the inaccuracy issues, and Henck's I found boring, not to mention the tone of his piano is horrible.
John11inch 1 year ago
@John11inch I'm impressed that you know the sonata well enough to pick up on inaccuracies in the execution. Also: the tone of Henck's piano is horrible? I found that disk to be one of the best engineered piano recordings I've ever heard, very clear and unmuddy. Perhaps the tone is little dry for some tastes, but it's ideal for this piece. (tbh I'd love to hear Debussy played like this - would make a nice contrast to the usual 'swimming through mud' approach...)
AntiProUltra 1 year ago
1 vote for Bosendorfer, eh?
AhaBach4Life 2 years ago
Why do i love this and the Boulez 2nd sonate. Must hear the third now that it's out there. This music sounds like the world we live in and some part of all that is in us.This would befor many impossible to memorize ,timings,dynamics every note I will do Webern's Variations.das ist ENUG!
lovesGenet 2 years ago
Very interesting! Since you mentioned Boulez's Second, I shall say that , on a first listening, I find Barraque's sonata more expressive and compelling.
Thank you!
vitesenzafine 2 years ago
more importantly maybe - what does the fact that there is a composer like this say about the humanity or inhumanity of people in this day and age
bullitosaladino 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
shit
CristiaanC 2 years ago
I can see you are overwhelmed by the quality of this work to the point of being able to merely sputter guttural superlatives! I know how you feel, and I agree; it *is* a masterpiece.
John11inch 2 years ago 2
speaking of monkeys slamming on keyboards: i picked up the complete works of barraque the other day, which included the infamous Litwin recording of this sonata. OH MY BASTARD GOD IT'S BAD. it's like listening to someone sight-reading it for the first time, and it's slooooow, i.e. his 1st movt (marked 'tres rapide' btw - !) is a whole 10 minutes longer than henck's
avoid like the plague, kids
AntiProUltra 2 years ago 2
Thanks for the warning D:
John11inch 2 years ago
@AntiProUltra You are reffering to Stephan I believe? He was a friend of mine at school but I never got a chance to really hear him play anything. Perhaps I now know why. As I recall he didn't play much for anyone at the time that I remember.
perry1559 1 year ago
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I would never waste my time to play music like this... If i wanted to play music like this I would much rather hit random keys on the piano.
aiuhepdos 2 years ago
I wish you would not waste time leaving comments on music you do not understand, because it's equivalent to a monkey just slamming on a computer keyboard and contains no value.
John11inch 2 years ago
Owned
Und1ne 2 years ago 3
What about you shut up and try to SIMPLY try to see or understand another one's point of view.
Beaudereck 2 years ago
When A says something is beautiful and B says it is random garbage the burden of empathy always falls first on B, not the other way around.
chaimgogol 2 years ago
I used to have that attitude about music like this. but when you actually do go and hit random keys on the piano wanting to produce such music, you'll find that your interpretation of this music as being completely random is a false interpretation..and if you actually take the time to HEAR this music, and not just casually listen, you discover that there is a certain coherency in this music. whether you like it or not, it is NOT the same as hitting random keys on the piano.
DougYfunnie 2 years ago 25
I don't understand.. it sounds structureless and random to me...
NapSeason 2 years ago
@NapSeason its not--the rhythm and the notes are mathematically determined. However, it still SOUNDS random and structureless-so who cares about the math? This is music-it should sound good right?
verystacy 1 year ago
@verystacy I agree to a certain extent. I'm on the fence regarding serialism. I think it can be enjoyable when used in certain contexts, but to me, music as an art is first and foremost; the math is there to make the art possible. When it becomes all about the math, it's not art anymore. It's not a human expression, it's just notes derived from nature.
NorrisChuckling 1 year ago
Such an argument is inconsequential to the mode in which a piece was written. Gauging whether a piece is, by your qualifications, "good", or whether it is just "based on math", is merely a way to phrase quality or lack of quality (as you will be determining the second from the first, which is therefore circular). It shouldn't matter whether the piece is a serial composition or not; it's either good or not (in your opinion). It's art either way; it's just good or bad art =P
John11inch 1 year ago
@NorrisChuckling What's wrong with notes derived from nature?! Nature is all around us, what is alien about that?! I agree that maths shouldn't be the ruleing factor of music / the essence, but this music is clearly not just maths. On a side note, maths is a human discovery / invention, so why shouldn't this express human emotion?
joebassplayer 1 year ago
i'm baffled by all these critical comments about the henck recording, which while being different in approach to pi-chien chen's (it has a more epic feel to it), is excellent
AntiProUltra 2 years ago
fuck yeah
feedthewomb 2 years ago
Ah yes, the Barraque sonata. I've spent many intimidated hours reading this score with the very few recordings that have ever been available. Certainly not for the uninitiated, but for those with a keen ear for serial composition, this one stands very near the pinnacle of perfection. And Pi-Hsien Chen does a splendid job here. I would love to hear Yvonne Loriod's premier recording, but it is very rare, and unless a complete retrospective of her recordings is re-released, nigh impossible a find
EuriskoLontano 2 years ago
I nave the Loriod recording, and it's a rather lumbering, passionless account. Overall my favorite is the Claude Helffer, which brings out the last drops of ecstasy and despair in the piece. Henck comes close, but is marred by the grotesquely long caesuras in the first part. (I'll have to get out Peak.) Woodward's is the least impressive: really not the piece at all, but closer to root canal by a dentist trying to make time for a round of golf.
pfitzner1 2 years ago
interesting to hear about loriod's barraqué -- i was excited to track down her boulez 2nd a while back, but it was kindof a letdown. her messiaen might not be definitive (with the possible exception of catalogue d'oiseaux and some of the other bird music) but it's really powerful stuff. is that all she could play?
recently read andré hodeir's bizarre manifesto-cum-book where he raves about barraqué for some 40-50 pages. trying to revisit this piece, but i'm still undecided...
minirausch 2 years ago
She's got a nice,brittle touch.
The Woodward recording you mention is also good even : some pedant wrote an article in Tempo complaining that he wasn't accurate enough,
quelbop 3 years ago
He actually has the best recording in my opinion. Articles have been written about his rendition and mentioned how diabolical his playing was in the sonata. The main problem is his lack of playing rhythms accurately. He doesn't take rhythm into account too much, but then again the "tres rapide" tempo does not allow for much rest. He literally flies through the beginning of the piece, completely owning it. I personally don't care for the complaints.
PiaNonuTT 2 years ago 2
Yes,Woodward does fly through the beginning of the piece and i'm sure the composer loved it.Very ocassionally one
is faced with the wildly innacurate performances which
get closer to the core of the piece.Another
case in point :
Geoffrey D Madge with his thrilling
rendition of Finnissy's 3rd Concerto.
japanesesweet 2 years ago
Wheres Cecil Taylor?
johnarthurknight 3 years ago
Gotta agree. Henck's version is boring.
fdaltrey 3 years ago
Wow, youtube is becoming an audio-visual kind of wikipedia... Thank you very, very much for posting this!!
-----------------------------
Rolf, Netherlands.
I am a collector of classical 78's and lp's
Click "otterhouse" above to see (and hear!)
some of my collection.
(Gioconda de Vito, Berl Senofsky, Vlado Perlemuter,
Carl Schuricht, Gina Bachauer etc)
otterhouse 3 years ago 4
Also, you said that Barraque was known as an electronic composer. In my readings, I've only come across mention of one electronic piece by Barraque. Perhaps you know of others? I would love to hear these if you have any recordings.
pawpawfuc 3 years ago
Thanks for posting. I worked on this Sonata for a few months when I was in college. Can't say that I got far with it. The rhythms are impossible to count. Anyway, I was wondering why you said to avoid Henck's recording? I found it a noteworthy attempt at interpreting this piece, which is saying alot.
pawpawfuc 3 years ago