Spirit animates the material body-brain, leading to INDIVIDUAL mind (awareness/knowledge) ~ INDIVIDUALLY CREATED & CREATIVE SOULS. Yet, it is plain that "god" hates knowledge, & destroys men for having it in OT, & advises us not to lean on it when accepting biblical veracity. "End Times" knowledge is also decried. This entire scenario is a "god hypocrisy" ~ how may we be gifted of "OWN FREE WILL", to be denied the condition of "INDIVIDUAL KNOWLEDGE"? BIBLE = CONSTANT, CYCLICAL IMPASSE!
Further upon the intrigue of biblical prophecy ~ why is it that, to fulfill most, if not all, prophecy, Satan has to pay his due? For e.g. Hitler is required to act to bring about the reconstitution of modern Israel. What would happen if Antichrist chooses not to play his role? Study Old Testiment prophecies ~ almost nothing comes to pass without the abettment of Satan! Satan deceives the very elect, yes? Where would he "push" influence? Does he sleep between the sheets of your man-made Bible?
Biblical Satan apparently is an extremely powerful individual ~ for one must suppose that he was able to outwit god, to steal one of the polarities of god, e.g. darkness, to "create" the abstraction of evil. This proposition leads to a dilemma ~ who was to be the independent witness to the temptation of Christ in the wilderness? One must assume that the recount to the scribes was thru the mouth of God/Jesus. Perhaps Jesus failed, and now works for Satan? To who's plan is biblical prophecy made?
Actually, Satan is a still a servant of God even in his rebellion.
Have you never red the book of Job. and seen that God puts limitations on Satan and Satan obeys God?
or how the demons react just at the mere sight of Christ
Mar 5:6-7 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
Ah yes, in Heaven, after we take on our spiritual bodies, tragedy, darkness, deceits, death, shall not exist, for it would seemingly be apparent that there shall be no requirement for the "natural orders" which we have learnt to observe in our cosmos. Bloody funny, tho, that in Revelations, the 24 elders are observed to be never-endlingly prostrating to the floor, throwing crowns at the feet of the one who SITS upon a throne ~ gravity remains a necessary? Do not question your god ~ Bible says!
Rudimentary observation of comsos will confirm that light exists within the dark, and dark exists outside the light; and that death of a star, or death of a galaxy, leads (now supposed via deathly blackholes) to recreation of stars, galaxies. Similar observations will confirm that life springs from death ~ e.g. dead organims feed new life. In heaven, these rules shall not pertain, apparently, and even "Shakespearian artistry" would not be possible, for beautiful tragedy shall be a "NO-NO".
Yes, what about those who have never heard? Well, they might for example, be completely ignorant that sin was purportedly brought into the world by the downfall of man to the whims of a TALKING snake, "the most subtil BEAST OF THE FIELD". GOD FORBID ~ The "unlearned" may well have their own idea of "God" and observe that he must be completely harmonic in the balance of cosmic light/dark, good/evil ~ have you ever observed that the venus flytrap employs natural deceit to entrap insects?
Nah, you've got it wrong! You MUST have "The Word" to be saved ~ and god's plan is to have "The Word" dispersed throughout the whole world, REGARDLESS of the fact that god knew, before the creation of the world, the names of those entered into the "Book of Life". Now does that make any sense to you? Why is it that many, many Christians and other god-faith chasers go absolutely braindead batshit, spraying inane spittle at everyone? Could it be because all religions are designed towards madness?
A serious question: I was raised a Christian and have now rejected Christianity because I sincerely believe it's false, not of God, but of man. I believe I've made the intellectually and morally responsible decision. I still respond positively to God's revelation/will/etc (or at least I think I do). If I turn out to be totally wrong/deceived, do I get a similar Heaven-pass like the African tribesman?
@sswave4dave that's where you went wrong, you based your decision on intellect, where does morality come from? Without God their is no morals. If you was sure in your decision im sure you wouldn't be posting on this video, that is your God given conscious speaking, i hope you rethink your decision as your eternal salvation depends on it. There is no free pass into heaven, you have already heard the word so their is no excuse.
@k12rising You're actually at odds with most Christian apologists on a couple points. Most Christian apologists are not anti-intellectual, and most Christian apologists don't say morality doesn't exist without God. They say ABSOLUTE morality doesn't exist without God.
If hearing the gospel makes us eternally accountable, then preaching the gospel is the most viscous thing you could do to someone. It puts their afterlife in serious jeopardy, decreases their odds of going to Heaven.
@sswave4dave well its seems you have already hardened your heart, i have no time to argue with an atheist but i know you've made the wrong decision and you will find out shortly.
Like mr. koule said, people everywhere have the information re: god. they readily follow false systems of belief in rebellion of the True God. these are not ignorant people. they will be judged not for rejecting jesus, but will be judged for rejecting the father whos evidence is everywhere. 2:00
@atbigdog24002 It means they have no idea and they are just making shit up. They must either deny the fact that Yeshua said no one gets to the father but through him, or they must admit their "loving" god is justified in torturing people for all eternity because they lost the geographic lottery.
@ryan84160 Or some Christians haven't thought extensively about this topic and thus have an underdeveloped understanding of it. Secondly your dilemma has no support, we have no reason to suspect that those are the only options, therefore we ought to reject it as a false dilemma.
@atbigdog24002 I certainly think that is true for some Christians, but most serious Christians that I have spoken with seem to have given it quite a bit of thought. However, it seems the more they think about it the more they must twist gospel to fit with their idea of a benevolent God. Either that or they do somehow justify the fact that these poor people do deserve to roast in hell for all of eternity.
@atbigdog24002 "therefore we ought to reject it as a false dilemma." How could it possibly be a false dilemma ? Unfortunately we are bound by the law of the excluded middle.Either we can get to heaven without having heard the name of Christ, or God is somehow justified in having these people tortured for all of eternity.
Of course I am always open to be persuaded, so if you have an argument, I would love to hear it.
@ryan84160 It's a false dilemma because there's a third alternative, namely that we can get to heaven without ever hearing of Christ, but through him. This just means although we may not now of his existence consciously we can still be saved because of his death on the cross(aka, God punished Jesus for our sins so we don't have to bear their cost).
@atbigdog24002 How is that a third alternative ? This is direct violation of what scripture says. Scripture teaches that faith is a requirement for justification. romans 5:1,ephesians 2:8-9,romans 10:4, galatians 3:24
@ryan84160 It is a third alternative because faith is involved, namely faith in the creator of the universe as revealed through general revelation. This is the way Jews were saved in the Old Testament and how Job was saved. Again, although these people don't know about Jesus, they can still be saved through Christ's atonement because of their faith in God.
@atbigdog24002 The bible clearly says that they must have faith IN CHRIST. Someone that belongs to a tribe in the amazon that has never had contact with the outside world and worships the sun God Nobatuntu,the river God Kentesha,the rain God Gordansa, practices cannibalism or other "savage" practices is not guaranteed salvation simply because they have never heard.
If this were true, why would missionaries ever try to convert them ?
@ryan84160 You are right in saying that people who have never heard and practice cannibalism and worship the sun God etc., etc. are not guranteed salvation, but it is not because they have never heard, it is because they accepted the false Gods around them and rejected the one true Creator that is revealed by general revelation. The reason missionaries try to convert people is because almost no one will actually reject their culture's false God's and worship the God that is revealed in nature.
@atbigdog24002 Are you saying that these people can know who Jesus is and that he is the one true God without ever hearing about him ? This makes absolutely no sense.
@ryan84160 If people have never heard of Jesus, then no, they don't know who jesus is, but they can still be saved if they reject the false gods around them and follow the one true God that is revealed by general revelation, but there have been many stories of God using various ways to reach people who haven't had missionaries reach them yet. But obviously almost none will be saved through general revelation.
@atbigdog24002 So you think its unreasonable for people to know who Jesus is without having heard of him , but you think its perfectly reasonable for people to know the father without ever having heard is name ? I would say it would be more like none rather than almost none. But even still, a God that is willing torture "almost" everyone that had not heard for all eternity for something that is beyond their control is an absolute monster.
@ryan84160 It is perfectly reasonable for people who haven't heard God's name to know him, they just wouldn't know him by that name. And, the orthodox view of hell isn't that God eternally tortures people for something that's is out of their control, rather the orthodox view is that people freely reject God as revealed by natural revelation, and in choosing the to reject God they accept hell, which can most accurately be defined as complete and utter separation from God.
@atbigdog24002 So you think a tribe in the middle of the amazon that has never had contact with the outside world could possibly believe in the God of the bible without ever hearing a word of the bible ? This sounds ridiculous to me.
Even if this does happen, you said that is would almost never happen. If this almost never happens,how could they possibly choose to reject a God they have never heard about and know absolutely nothing about.
@ryan84160 There are a plethora of stories from missionaries who have encountered tribesmen who've said that they already knew Jesus. It certainly seems absurd, but the fact is God works in wondrous ways(sry really cliche i know :P). I would think it would usually happen more like it did to a missionary friend of mine, who encountered a group of people in asia who had never heard the gospel but they said they had been having dreams and the instant my missionary friend mentioned jesus they said
@atbigdog24002 If you actually think there are people that somehow knew about Jesus without so much as hearing a word about him, I am terribly sorry, but you are a complete moron. Because some missionary said something does NOT make it true.
@ryan84160 I do believe that, there are plenty of stories from missionaries who have encountered a similar story to the one you described. The reason they reject the God is by accepting the false religions, and they don't have to know of this God by name, as Paul talks about in the first few chpts of romans, we are all culpable because of general revelation by nature.
@atbigdog24002 You have already said that very few people that havn't heard wont be saved. Why does god make is soooooooooooooooo much easier for people that live in Christian majority countries and make it make it incredibly difficult for others ? and unfortunately this is one of the most minor offence of YHWH.
@atbigdog24002 "general revelation by nature" does not exists.When we look at nature we have not so much as found one single,tiny,solitary,spec of a fraction of a fraction of a shred of evidence for the existence of a YHWH.
@ryan84160 Is this(your previous post) a point about what the Bible says or about whether there's evidence for God that can be found in nature? I just need a clarification, because they are obviously different question, but interesting point.
@atbigdog24002 Also, the bible clearly ways that knowing Christ is the only way. So even if they did someone come the realization that the creator of the universe is the Yaweah character of the old testament, they would also need to understand that he sent is son (who is also himself) to earth to be tortured and executed to forgive the sins of mankind.
@ryan84160 Yes that is an interesting thought, but my position is that Christ is the only way, and what that means is that the only way one is saved is because of Christ's sacrifice. One needn't know about Christ necessarily.
@ryan84160 Good question, as I've already stated an extraordinarily small amount of ppl will come to saving faith through general revelation(aka natural revelation) and by doing missions we can potentially increase the amount of people saved. Also, we have an obligation to carry out the great commission, but that was to make disciples, not "convert" lots of people, so that doesn't necessarily require that preaching of the gospel to the very corners of the earth per se.
@ryan84160 where does the bible clearly show that knowing Christ is the only way? If that is the case how were the Old Testament Jews saved? How was Job saved, he didn't even have the Pentateuch.
That was under the old covenant, obviously you can't have faith in saviour that died for your sins if it had not happened yet. Some would say that Jews were only saved if they had faith in the coming Messiah. Some would say that the requirement for faith in Christ only took effect after he was sacrficed for the sins of humanity. Doesn't really matter to me though.
So people who didn't hear the gospel are in hell? It really didn't answer my question. I'm Native American and I asked a pastor what happened to my ancestors before the discovery of "the new world"? He simply said they all went to hell. I think it's not fair for my ancestors to be in hell without ever hearing the gosepl of Christ.
@Mankey43 It's not fair that my Native American ancestors are burning in hell without having a chance to hear about the Gospel. I don't care how you put it, God is cruel for burning people that haven't had the chance to hear about the gospel.
@joshlazarus Gods ways are mysterious to us. According to scripture God says the wages of sin are death and though I dont think the indians will be judge for denying christ as they simply did not know, they will still be judge for sining as we all have a common ancestor of Noah and his family, So some one along the line denied his descendants knowladge of the one true God and there fore damned them all and his punish ment is seven fold as mentioned in the bible.
@joshlazarus but you see the bible holds only the people who know, and have knowladge, accountable The indians in perspective to the the other contineints had no way to learn or understand the bible I can not say for sure but since they could not understand or even reach the Truth they may have hope of the salvation extended to the mentally simple and infants.
This question is easily answered. They will have a different standard of judgement.
Luke 12:47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Let me give this scenario: What if I was a parent and I had five kids. All of them were sinking. ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT I ONLY HAVE 2 LIFE VESTS!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I WOULD LOVE THEM TO DEATH, given all their sin! I would throw FIVE of them out, and for those who choose to grab hold, I will rejoice! For those who choose not to, I will WEEP!!!!! THAT IS GOD. God isn't just going to throw out 2, and be like, well, the rest don't deserve it anyway! How repugnant of a belief!
But ABOUT this American fairness. God expects us to know His law, but how can we obey his law if even our mere sense of fairless is skewed? I don't believe our view of fairness is skewed. Yes we don't deserve God's favor, but does God want to save us or not? You are presenting a Megalomaniacal Tyrannical God that chooses to love some and dispense others like a Nazi! That's NOT GOD. Yes, we DESERVE HELL! BUT! Does God want to save us or not? Not some, but all?
But I agree, yes, they are NOT ignorant, they know MUCH that God has given. But this video tries to comfort Christians, but it falls empty. NO MATTER how you slice and dice it. Ok, they aren't judged for what they haven't heard, but what they have. STILL, the SHIP is sinking, and the GOD OF ALL LOVE IS NOT THERE TO SAVE. That's the bottom line! No matter how you try to justify it, that's what's happening. This isn't a comforting video for those who YES have this AMERICAN 'fairness'
I don't mean to be annoying Greg lol, I like to make people think. But you said, it's what these people DO WITH WHAT THEY HAVE that matters, but I believe that you falsely state that they readily follow false systems. There are people who REALLY want to know God follow him. You're wrong that all those who haven't heard the gospel somehow automatically flee to evil doctrine, though yes, they sin, and they know it, but many try to find God, with all due respect, its disingenuous not to admit that.
This makes a lot of sense, but what about Romans 10, which says "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?" It makes it seem that people around the world have to actually hear about and know who Jesus is in order to be saved, or else they will be condemned, and not just be judged by what they already know.
@eyallev I've never heard anyone claim that DNA was ever in a perfect state, and aren't the mutations that have brought us to homo sapien the mutations that added to our DNA positive characteristics such as intelligence? So don't blame your evolutionary tree for your lack of intelligence, blame yourself for not trying harder in school.
ok, so a mentaly handicaped person that is unable to understand the complexaty of the world, that thinks "duuuu .... the world is, because it's here duuuuu ..." would not be punished for not believing in god, right?
So I, as a person of average intellatance (mind you, I've already suffered 6000 years of mutation to my once perfect DNA) may not be able to understand reality for all it's greatness, So I'm not really guildty of not believing in god, I'm just not "smart enought" to be a believer.
@hartleywill lol what? Aristotle was good in all but I don't see why some of todays modern philosophers are much worse. What exactly constitutes a pseudo-philosopher?
@huffle: are you saying on "right" and "wrong" that this is dictated based upon my mind and gained awareness, etc? More specifically, do you mean by that, this right and wrong are pretty much up to each person's view of what is right and wrong, and that is just how it is and we should accept that? I am just seeking clarification to understand where you are coming from. your post caught my attention. thanks for any further clarification.
I have NO information that leads me to believe that I owe my behavior to the moral standards of a 'god of the universe'!! Nobody does!!
I have my own experience of life. Life is NOT about 'bending the knee' to a dictator. Its about respecting life itself - including one's own impulses.
'Right' and 'wrong' are by-products of a mind having gained awareness of its own nature. It has nothing to do with a supernatural being somewhere 'out there'.
You have no information because you have plainly not bothered to look, or you're just ignorant to facts laid out plainly before you.
It's a shame to see what Darwinism do to people. Darwinism, now THERE's something that doesn't have the necessary information to prove the view of life it tries to make.
Let me ask you a question. Where did you get your life from? Who/what gave it to you? Why are you here?
I do believe in objective reality, but I can't agree with Mr. Koukl about how everybody knows the right and wrong. To some people in history it has been very common sense that there is nothing wrong with having slaves, or killing or raping somebody from a different tribe. But today it is common sense to us that it's wrong to own slaves. Maybe the moral law is written on our hearts, but it gets skewed by culture.
@SeraphsWitness The bible has a bunch of info about yahweh. But that's just information, not knowledge. If he didn't have the bible, on what would he base his knowledge of what yahweh would or wouldn't do? And even if you're just going by the bible, that god has wiped the slate clean (nearly) before. He's taken revenge on behalf of the Israelites, made bears attack boys because they called someone names, etc. How can you make any assumptions about what he will do?
@drumrnva I guess I'm confused by the difference between information and knowledge. Knowledge is the state of understanding information, isn't it?
Firstly, the "bear attack" in Kings is taken out of context and unfortunately poorly translated in many versions. I'd be happy to clarify it for you if you're interested.
More importantly, is it unreasonable to be able to draw future conclusions based on past behavior? I don't think so. What about what God tells use about himself? Can't we trust it?
@SeraphsWitness Please provide context for the bear story. To me information is what's written down. Knowledge is what one has experienced/applied. We've got plenty info about miracles, but I've yet to be convinced that ANYONE has knowledge of them. If nobody had ever discovered or translated any of of the gospels, how would we have any information about Jesus? The deity and the dogma are inseparable. If YOU can trust it and it brings you contentment/peace/happiness, -OK. I can't.
I'm so glad this video is up. I have encountered this topic so often among atheists, two of which are actually best friends of mine, as a means for arguing against the Christian God and it has always made me wonder if the people who present arguments like this actually study the Bible's text, not just read it, but actually study it. I also here the question of "If he's so merciful, why doesn't he give us people who questioned him a second chance?" My reply: Each day is another chance.
@moranplano I've seen "evidence" of past lives and it seems it's all either coincidence, hoax, or made up. I know reincarnation is a nice thing to believe, but I could never believe in something that's not the truth. And can you please explain to me how you can be so sure that what you've experienced isn't just your imagination or dreams?
@turok25 Excellant point. I often direct people, since they're already on YOUTUBE, to go ahead and type in Near Death Exp. or Past Lives or Out of Body Exp. and see the insights that everyday people, who are not trying to sell anything, have from geniune accounts of a Mystical nature. GOD is not an idiot who let things get so out of control, then punishes Man for it. Rather the world's a school and everyone is hopefully moving forward.
@moranplano Scripture plainly states that Satan is the prince of the power of the air, and that he masquerades as an angel of light. He is very capable of allowing someone who opens themselves up to the mystical to experience things that are spiritual but not holy, especially when the bible condemns such practices. How can you be sure God is behind your experiences?
@rlhoope526 pt.1 The fact that.."..scripture plainly states.." isn't proof either. If people can't have or believe in Higher Exp. then what's left for them to believe in..just blind faith in 'hand me down' dogma of a questionable source? Remember, Jesus and the Apostles didn't sit down and come up with a Bible. That in itself speaks volumes. The Bible was organized and put out by a Roman Emperor and church officials centuries later. Much was added to (worship of Mary, confession...
pt.2 ..excommunication, etc) that the prostestants later threw out. And didn't the Apostles "open themselves up to Mystical Experiences"? Paul said that.."he knew a man caught up in the third heaven whether in the body or out of the body etc." THAT was a Mystical experience. Does the Bible condemn this? Church officials don't want anyone (even today) having Mystical exp. that challenge their dogma. Imagine, parishoners recalling past lives. That's one reason they killed the Gnostics.
@moranplano Scripture has been attested as one of the most reliable historical documents written. There is more than enough proof to provide evidence for it's existence and accuracy. A faith that changes the lives of people across an entire planet is not a blind faith. It is a relationship with a living Lord. Scriptures were recorded in written form beginning with the Old Testament and going forward.
@rlhoope526 No religion going out to the MASSES will ever get by unscathed. With the Salvation of All Souls on the table, and Eternal Damnation in Fire as the alternative, Jesus surely would have jotted some things down to avoid confusion. Jesus' message was GOD IS LOVE and the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS WITHIN. The Salvation and Damnation came from the Roman Emperor to control the people. If people knew what SOUL IS, they would know that throwing IT into a Lake of Fire would have no effect.
@moranplano First, Christianity is a relationship with Christ and one that sincerely follows His teaching and involves a change of heart via the Holy Spirit. It isn't intended to be a mass religion of do's and do not's. He did say however, that if we love Him, to keep His commandments. Second, when it comes to confusion, Jesus spoke in parables many times rather than just laying out there and requiring no thought. He knows those who seek Him and those who don't.
@moranplano Fact is, there are many who won't believe no matter what evidence is shown or how simple or complex it may seem. Third, Jesus spoke of Hell quite a few times (Matt. 5:22, Matt. 5:29-30, Matt. 10:28, and three more times just in Matthew, not to mention several more in just the Gospels). So eternal damnation in firewas clearly referenced by the Creator of our universe. As far as what paul was speaking of, it was dying to self or to the desires of this world and following Christ.
@moranplano If Paul and Jesus truly spoke of and taught out of body experiences, where are the endless sermons concerning this? Where do you find this expounded on time and time again within Scripture? No, it isn't there. That's because what they were teaching was putting off this world, humbling self, and exalting Christ. Even non-Christian scholars agree with this major theme of the Bible. You are missing something my friend. It's not about us or our experiences. It is only about HIm.
@rlhoope526 pt1.First off, Jesus taught for three years, everything he spoke in the NT could have been said in 3 hours...what was left out? The Mystical Practice of DYING DAILY is advanced. It would have been taught around the campfire at night to the more advanced disciples...not to the public. Did you ever ask yourself what was the difference between an APOSTLE and a Good and Faithful parishioner? Every Saint or Enlightened Teacher came in contact with the LIGHT AND SOUND of GOD. (Paul...
part 2..on the road to Damascus) At the PENTECOST, the Disciples were bathed in SPIRIT which came as...TONGUES OF FIRE AND THE RUSHING WIND..again..the Light and Sound. Why was so little of the Light and Sound put into the Bible? Simply, the Roman Church had no control over it, or any exp. with it. There were 18 Gospels, only 4 got put in. Much is left out. I don't FEAR GOD'S WRATH. I've had countless past lives. I've learned the world is just a school. We need to be uplifted not saved.
@moranplano I think I see where you are coming from. My guess is you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God, and that you obviously don't believe in the Scripture we have. I don't really think there is much more I can say but to ask you how you deal with the issue of sin or wrong doing? You don't believe we need forgiveness, so wouldn't that make it easy to justify any lifestyle you choose? You can always just correct yourself the next time around, right? No need to worry about it too much?
@moranplano No doubt you think that when Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again, you believe that solidifies your angle. In short, if we don't need to be saved, even though it was planned from before the foundation of the world, and if sin is not a problem, I really don't see why Christ came in the first place. Moran, there are conversations in Scripture where Jesus is alone with the Apostles and He teaches them and expounds on some of the deeper issues of His philosophy.
@moranplano Nowhere in the accepted gospels or anywhere else in Scripture is it spoken of in the way you describe. Why would Scripture declare such things as faith in God, forgiveness of sins, a respectful fear of God, baptism, humility, and holiness? The doctrines you speak of is exactly what makes the death of Christ in vain. Jesus said He came to seek and save those that were lost. You say we don't need saving. Only the Holy Spirit is from God and HE lines up with Scripture. Does yours?
@rlhoope526 pt.1 You're right, there isn't much more to talk about. All the troubles of the world weren't caused by a fallen angel that GOD could easily have stopped or because two people ate a piece of fruit. I was a preacher in Kansas in the old west. It was a good life. But, when I died, I crossed over and went before the Judgement. I was grateful to learn that there was no Eternal Damnation. Good people go to good places. It doesn't matter what you believe. Really, rlhoope, had you..
pt.2..been born in Saudi Arabia wouldn't you be spouting fundamental Islam right now. What about if you had been born an Apache in the 12th century. How could you have found the "One Way". A PERFECT GOD HAS A PERFECT CREATION. That doesn't mean GOD burns billions of his Children because they didn't find "the Blood". Rather, HE keeps incarnating them over and over until they reach a certain LEVEL OF PERFECTION, then they graduate. You're right, this is NOT found in the Bible. I walked....
pt. 3..out of the preacher life Judgement, happy to be in one of the Heavens, but still dismayed to find out that so much of what I taught simply wasn't true. Bad people go to bad places but they are temporary. Eventually all SOULS make it back..a PERFECT GOD WOULDN'T have it any other way.. So, what is the PURPOSE OF LIFE HERE? TO BE SAVED? GOD could've saved everyone by just wiping the slate clean with Adam and EVe. Think about it. Maybe we're here to learn to LOVE UNCONDITIONALLY.
@moranplano I'm afraid it really doesn't matter where I would have been born. The main difference between you and I is that I try to see God as the Scriptures declare him. He is sovereign and He has complete control over His creation, just as you would if you created the world. It is only by His divine grace that I was born here. This is an attribute of God that many people will never understand and will run from. It may not seem pleasant, but after all, only God is God.
@moranplano No further mandate was required from Christ concerning putting together a Bible which isn't really the argument. We all know it's a compilation of 66 books and not just one. Besides, Jesus said that His word would never pass away, indicating that He would preserve it. As far as Paul's reference of a man being caught up in the third heaven, he is speaking of a spiritual experience that he himself had (ref. 2 Corinthians verses 1-10).
@moranplano Paul was sharing his spiritual experience in the third person to show the Corinthians that he had an experience greater than theirs because they were bragging about their own. It was a moment that God saw fit to give Paul a "thorn in the flesh" as he describes it, so that he would not exalt himself, but rather God, to which God told him that His grace would be enough to see Paul through life despite the infirmity he had been given. This vision or experience was for God's glory.
The DYING DAILY that St. Paul spoke of, is the Art of leaving one's body and travelling into the other worlds on a daily basis. Mystics call this SOUL TRAVEL. Imagine if one could do this all the questions about spiritual life that could be answered. Type in SOUL TRAVEL on YOU TUBE or google it. Perhaps you too could learn this Ancient Art. Ofcourse, the church might condemn you, as much of their dogma would be exposed as false. But, that's a risk many true seekers of GOD must take.
This speaker talks like he has such authority on GOD. He has NONE. If he had any experience on the OTHER SIDE, he would know, that SOUL DOESN'T NEED TO BE SAVED, It's not lost, It's in school. GOD doesn't condemn anyone, they just have to reincarnate to work out their karma and advance spiritually. Which is exactly what they were sent here to do. In past lives, I have been heroes, villians, preachers and good and faithful servants of every religion. Eventually, every SOUL graduates.
um..basically everyone in the known universe disagrees with you. chopra got handled especially in regards to the textual criticism and canonization of the bible. anybody with even an introductory knowledge of biblical history knows what he said was absolutely nonsense and it left many people in the field who commented on the interview puzzled as to what he even meant. to quote one of them "what is an 18th itteration anyway..what does that even mean?"
@veritaslogos First of all Greg's conceptualization of God, and the limitations that he imposes through his faith. Deepak is very relaxed and thorough in his explaination of HIS limited perception of God. Greg speaks as if he has the right answer but he does not. re is very speculative in his argument using a lot of what ifs and maybes. Greg got crushed in using the analogy of medicine against Deepak as a medical doctor. But Deepak point out that there are various methods for healing the sick.
@herbaljunky you didn't answer the question herbal,most of that was merely a personal attack on Greg. In what way did deepak's notion that there are different ways to heal negate Greg's point?
@koolwings There are basically two approaches anyone can take to a religion, Orthodox and Mystical. The Orthodox is the Outer one, it centers around the things that priests can control, rituals, ceremonies, traditions. They give out promises of Heaven forever (just do exactly what we say). Failure to follow the prescribed procedures will always result.."In being cut off from GOD, forever!" Threats like Eternal fire, eternal cold, eternal darkness are always tendered..pt. 1
pt. 2...The Mystical Path on the other hand, allows people to explore spiritual realities for themselves and prove things for themselves. One can RECALL a past life. Noone can see Jesus returning or a Lake of Fire. These are just faith based. One can exp. Divine Light and Sound (the Word) or see themselves as SOUL. I travel the path of ECKANKAR. It has has done all these things for me.
This speaker contradicts himself in vague ways. He says GOD won't condemn people because they never heard of Jesus, but he will condemn them because they rejected the FATHER. Reject how? A 12th century Apache leads a good life, but he's not perfect, so has he rejected the FATHER? I have recalled many pastlives adn have come to know that this world is just a school, that Souls are sent to, to grow up. There is no Salvation or Damnation. The Bible is mostly what the church made it to be.
pt.1..Hardly know where to begin, I have been at this for many years. My first past life recall was triggered by a sudden painful breakup I didn't see coming. That night I found myself on the Time Track and ended up in a life in Kansas in the old west as a preacher. The woman and I had the same break up back then. I couldn't let go of the pain altogether, so I had to go thru it again this life and show more detachment. Since then, I have recalled past lives as a French woman, British...
pt. 2...(wood8670)..publisher, Italian sailor, Egyptian nobleman, arab woman, chinese artist, russian explorer, Aztec mystic, Spanish explorer, Sufi writer, evil physician on Atlantis, going back to throwing stone spears at mastedons. I've done many good things and very vile things. Instead of burning me forever, or Forgiving my sins, GOD let me return here time and again, to settle accounts and learn more lessons. Religions come and go, SOUL is ETERNAL. We all find our way home, eventually.
you strawman Greg's view. It isn't merely that man isn't perfect, but rather that he sins against God knowingly of his own volition. This is what God will judge; every person has a conscience they knowingly violate and the just Judge of all man will see to it that people pay for their crimes. A good God would do that.
I agree with you and Greg on the point that everyone has the Divine Good written in their heart, but Greg says that they knowingly rebel against GOD and worship a false system. People generally believe what they are raised to believe. If Greg were born in Saudi Arabia, I have no doubt that he would be preaching fundamental Islam. Is that a rebellion? THE JUDGEMENT I have found is just a life review, where SOUL can see It's mistakes and do better next time. Type in Past Lives on YOUTUBE.
wlrugby Hitler burned bibles, what chapter does it say that he created the animals afterwards to be his companion please tell me so I can make sure you're reading it in context, secondly in the book of Job the word for the shape of the earth is chewg in Hebrew meaning spherical in shape. This book was written hundreds of years before Columbus' time when people still thought you could sail off the edge of the earth. That's prophetic.
wlrugby, I fail to see how you can reliably maintain this interpolation considering the fact that the nazi party was avowedly secular, made the catholic centrist party illegal, and conducted a variety of clergy trials following the period in which Pius XI issued the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge. I think its akin to claiming that the nazi party was representative of workers rights based on their political rhetoric, while ignoring the fact that they dissolved Germany's trade unions.
Oh yeah did I happen to mention that the Quran was written by one person 600 years after Christ and that the bible is composed by over 40 different authors on three different continents seperated by time and geography they give answers to lifes biggest issues and never disagree once over a period of 1500 + years. Hmmm that is miraculous in itself. God is God He can do whatever He wants God spoke and men of God wrote.
you honestly think they never contradict themselves? jesus modified a bunch of rules that hed been there before, so god was wrong when he spoke earlier apparently
the story of creation says god made the animals before he made man, but the garden of eden says god made the animals afterwards in an attempt to give adam a companion. the bible also makes references to a flat world. by the way im sorry that i'm commenting on this a week after you posted it
Where the bible sais that God brought the flood. The Quran sais that Noah asked God to bring the flood to punish the world. Where the bible sais that God will bring judgment day. the Quran sais that Allahs people must bring about or provoke the end times. Also it contradicts itself in saying all of Noahs son's died and then one of Noah's sons lived.
10 commandments is God's universal law for mankind not Levitical law I don't know what you mean by God contradicts himself He's very particular yah know, maybe it's just that everyones a pseudo theologians and isn't particular of what context it's in because they only read one verse. I guess the bible is right that there will come a time when people perish because of their ignorance.
Personally I couldn't care less about what two men or woman choose to do. For as long as I could remember even as a child I was attracted to girls but that was not how God intended I was in a lesbian relationship and fornication. I paid for both. The fact is that now with people like Kageny head of NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association) on Bobos team they have this crazy sick agenda for sex ed for Kindergardeners.
Also at my church my good friend Gisela comes all the way from the Himalayas and my other friend Mike used to be an Arian Father and I'm black so the issue isn't what about other people the issue is with you. Will you today choose salvation.
You said that the stoning to death and those things was the law for God's holy people. It doesn't matter who the people were or what the reasons are, it doesn't change the fact that your loving God did these attrocites, killed babies etc. Then the bible contradicts itself by saying no don't do these things, don't do these things that your God has committed. And I thought God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Yes those are His People He can do what He feels is best for them. These laws were exclusively for His people, if you knew how easily the Jewish people were given over to idolatry and turn their hearts from their God and then they'd cry out He would heal His people in this cyclic pattern over and over Oh how many blessings they missed out on. God is a holy God he'll let us do what we want but when we try to be our own God hey it's not like he didn't warn us.
So because someone gave in to idolatry very easily, then that is justification to kill them? And so since God warned them then it is ok to do what he did? So if we give people that are doing really bad things, and give them warnings, then it is ok to stone them? And how is stoning people to death "what is best" for someone. Sounds like the bible is contradicting itself when it talks about forgiveness and loving your enemy and the emphasis it puts on human life.
What good are these 25,000 archaeological discoveries.These discoveries do not prove that the bible is the word of God, or that the miracles that happened are true, they do not prove that Jesus was God or any of these things.
ANd you also said that "the bible does say that carnal mind cannot understand the word of God" DOn't you have a carnal mind?I guess you can't understand the bible either, who are you to tell me that my worldview is wrong, yours can't even be understood by the human mind..
That doesn't mean God is relaxed on this issue, Christ says if you harm in any way one of these little ones. You' re better off tying a stone around your neck and jumping into deep waters. What he means is the consequence will be swift and the consequence will most often destroy that person.
Actually hell has different levels. He punishes each person according to their works. If you chose to live your life seperated from God then the punishment will go something like this spending eternity away from the presence of God. Scripturally if a person is truly contrite in their hearts and accepts Christ even a pedophile can go to heaven. That doesn't mean a transgression, that's an abomination to God to premeditate and say well I can just repent.
Although He is loving He is just and the law about stoning homosexuals well first that word didn't even exist until the 19th century, secondly it was referring to His people adopting the pagan practice of temple prostitution where His people were having orgies in His temple. God condemns all sex outside of the marriage covenant it's all the same to Him. People always say why does God allow these things, then when He does something they get mad He interfered.
By the way the rest is a history of Holy wars the way God said they would happen. Remember the bible is the only divinely inspired book that has fulfilled prophecy. And know they weren't just injected into the old testament because the manuscripts predate the archeological discoveries (some 25,000 of them) most often by hundreds of years. I don't think you know anything about the connotation of the bible, but the bible does say that carnal mind cannot understand the word of God
When a Muslim does some horrific act he is doing it because Allah said so in the Koran, if a supposed Christian does something horrific he is doing it in opposition to what Christ taught because there is no example of Christ teaching to kill. That is why in the crusades they used to baptize themselves and everything for their journey except for their swords because because Christ was not allowed control of their swords.
Did God say to stone to death homosexuals, did God kill babies, didn't God wipe out the earth with a flood, didn't God say to put to death people who worked on the sabbath? Yes God did say these things. So if someone were to read the bible then go out and do these things because they are things that their "loving" God did and approve of, then how is it wrong?
Yeah that was for His Holy people he wanted them to be set apart and sanctified, that was His law for them. There is not one law that you should kill others from outside his people although there are many in the Quran there is countless verses that Allah sais if their is a person of the book or anyone who practices any other religion they should be torn limb from limb and God didn't destroy the whole world or else we wouldn't be here he rescued Noah and his sons and the animals.
here's a better question: What about those who are INCAPABLE of understanding the very concept of Jesus as a savior, or the concept of God? people with mental disabilities? My son has autism. He has fairly developed sense of wrong vs. right, but could never understand God or Jesus in the slightest. If Jesus is "the only way" how is my son ultimately "judged" by that standard when he CANNOT COMPREHEND?
You are a wonderful mother who cares for your son. It is my understanding that those who are incapable of comprehension are not accountable as you and I. Accountability begins with the ability to reason. Scripture teaches that salvations begin in our minds (Acts. 8:30-31) and resonates in our heart (Rom. 10:9-15). Anyone that does not have the capacity to consider any evidence is safe
If Jesus came to save all mankind, why did he not bother to preach to anyone except those that lived near his native lands? what about the millions and millions of natives around the world? hmmm I know why. Jesus was just a false prophet or lunatic or a fairytale. If God wanted to save everyone HE WOULD JUST DO IT!!!!!! He would not do some half-assed job! do you believe God lived in a womb for 9 months and emerged from a bloody vagina? GOD ALMIGHTY? get REAL MAN!
If god won't send people to hell who haven't never heard of Jesus, then what would he do? Reincarnate them into the christian society? As far as I know there is no reincarnation in christianity.
but it is not fair to them , the others heard of jesus and accepted him as their savior , while them never heard of jesus and did not have the chance of having all their sins washed therefore not being able to live eternally with God, is that fair? because according to the bible only those pure will go to heaven
It's God's decision. What is fair? God doesn't owe us anything. We all deserve punishment for our sins. He's completely justified in sending anyone he wants to hell, in the same way that He can save anyone He likes. Read Romans 9, its very interesting on that point.
Romans 9:21, "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"
Later He calls them "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"
ok, so he created us to play with our lives as he pleases and he can do whatever he wants with us, even a human has more sense of responsability and value for life than god then,
just because he is god he can do whatever he wants to, thats why i dont believe in god, thats some sick shit honestly
If it was up to me I would let most people into heaven, one problem, it's not my heaven. God is a just God, sin has to be punished. God has revealed Himself to all people in general revelation, His creation. Jhn 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
I love the way guys like this claim to know what God thinks and why He does stuff. Where do they get their information? From scripture? What a joke. Scripture was written by man and is full of mistakes and inconsistencies.
I'm talking about ALL of them. How about this obvious one for starters:
LEV 20:9 "'For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death: he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
LEV 20:10 "'The man who commits adultery with another man's wife, even he who commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
To say the Bible is full of inconsistencies can be debated, but to say its full of mistakes technically can't be said by you unless you know what the Bible should say.
Also these 2 verses from Leviticus that you bring up, for kicks lets assume its God's law, is saying there's a penalty for doing those acts. If thats God's law, whether you agree with it or not, whats the big deal if there is a penalty for breaking it.
So bringing up the "thou shalt not murder" doesn't follow
I agree with the larger question that there are contradictions in the Bible. But the commandment "do not murder" has nothing to do with capital punishment. At least in English, "murder" is by definition an illegitimate act of killing a human being. Capital punishment and acts of war are not included.
I've read johnq527's response several times and I can't follow the train of thought. Are you saying that if God tells you to break a commandment then it's OK because it's His commandment?
And "to say its full of mistakes technically can't be said by you unless you know what the Bible should say" doesn't make any sense to me. If I write "blue is red" in a book are you saying you can't say it's a mistake because you don't know what I "should have said"? I don't know what you're talking about.
this is such rediculous reasoning - Sure, God might be manifest to all - but --- NOT God as Jesus. Why would a Jew brought up to love God with all his or her heart have any reason to believe that their "system" of belief is in any way false? What you really say here is that all who don't believe in Jesus as God are doomed to hell because we all should have known better -- THIS IS SO HATEFUL I'm sure it makes the loving God quite sad!
perfectshots35 He is right hes not saying you dont have to believe in jesus to be saved, he says God wont judge anyone for something that they were unaware of. and then he argues on how everyone without exception is aware that there is a God "creator"
The people who give this argument and stick to it are largely not saved themselves.
newdawn733 1 day ago
well I HAVE the information, but I really don't believe it, because I'm a sceptic, science-person.. soo.. I guess I'm in trouble right.
aboyborninjune 2 months ago
Spirit animates the material body-brain, leading to INDIVIDUAL mind (awareness/knowledge) ~ INDIVIDUALLY CREATED & CREATIVE SOULS. Yet, it is plain that "god" hates knowledge, & destroys men for having it in OT, & advises us not to lean on it when accepting biblical veracity. "End Times" knowledge is also decried. This entire scenario is a "god hypocrisy" ~ how may we be gifted of "OWN FREE WILL", to be denied the condition of "INDIVIDUAL KNOWLEDGE"? BIBLE = CONSTANT, CYCLICAL IMPASSE!
MagenticAdam66 4 months ago
Further upon the intrigue of biblical prophecy ~ why is it that, to fulfill most, if not all, prophecy, Satan has to pay his due? For e.g. Hitler is required to act to bring about the reconstitution of modern Israel. What would happen if Antichrist chooses not to play his role? Study Old Testiment prophecies ~ almost nothing comes to pass without the abettment of Satan! Satan deceives the very elect, yes? Where would he "push" influence? Does he sleep between the sheets of your man-made Bible?
MagenticAdam66 4 months ago
Biblical Satan apparently is an extremely powerful individual ~ for one must suppose that he was able to outwit god, to steal one of the polarities of god, e.g. darkness, to "create" the abstraction of evil. This proposition leads to a dilemma ~ who was to be the independent witness to the temptation of Christ in the wilderness? One must assume that the recount to the scribes was thru the mouth of God/Jesus. Perhaps Jesus failed, and now works for Satan? To who's plan is biblical prophecy made?
MagenticAdam66 4 months ago
@MagenticAdam66
Actually, Satan is a still a servant of God even in his rebellion.
Have you never red the book of Job. and seen that God puts limitations on Satan and Satan obeys God?
or how the demons react just at the mere sight of Christ
Mar 5:6-7 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
ScottDaMoose 1 month ago
Ah yes, in Heaven, after we take on our spiritual bodies, tragedy, darkness, deceits, death, shall not exist, for it would seemingly be apparent that there shall be no requirement for the "natural orders" which we have learnt to observe in our cosmos. Bloody funny, tho, that in Revelations, the 24 elders are observed to be never-endlingly prostrating to the floor, throwing crowns at the feet of the one who SITS upon a throne ~ gravity remains a necessary? Do not question your god ~ Bible says!
MagenticAdam66 4 months ago
Rudimentary observation of comsos will confirm that light exists within the dark, and dark exists outside the light; and that death of a star, or death of a galaxy, leads (now supposed via deathly blackholes) to recreation of stars, galaxies. Similar observations will confirm that life springs from death ~ e.g. dead organims feed new life. In heaven, these rules shall not pertain, apparently, and even "Shakespearian artistry" would not be possible, for beautiful tragedy shall be a "NO-NO".
MagenticAdam66 4 months ago
Yes, what about those who have never heard? Well, they might for example, be completely ignorant that sin was purportedly brought into the world by the downfall of man to the whims of a TALKING snake, "the most subtil BEAST OF THE FIELD". GOD FORBID ~ The "unlearned" may well have their own idea of "God" and observe that he must be completely harmonic in the balance of cosmic light/dark, good/evil ~ have you ever observed that the venus flytrap employs natural deceit to entrap insects?
MagenticAdam66 4 months ago
Nah, you've got it wrong! You MUST have "The Word" to be saved ~ and god's plan is to have "The Word" dispersed throughout the whole world, REGARDLESS of the fact that god knew, before the creation of the world, the names of those entered into the "Book of Life". Now does that make any sense to you? Why is it that many, many Christians and other god-faith chasers go absolutely braindead batshit, spraying inane spittle at everyone? Could it be because all religions are designed towards madness?
MagenticAdam66 4 months ago
Watch this video by Andy Thomson.
Why We Believe in Gods - Andy Thomson - American Atheists 09
It'll open your eyes so you can run away from these sharp tongued religious confidence artists.
Their time is running out.... thank god...
lambent77777 5 months ago
Er......How do you know Greg??
Tobytrim 6 months ago
A serious question: I was raised a Christian and have now rejected Christianity because I sincerely believe it's false, not of God, but of man. I believe I've made the intellectually and morally responsible decision. I still respond positively to God's revelation/will/etc (or at least I think I do). If I turn out to be totally wrong/deceived, do I get a similar Heaven-pass like the African tribesman?
sswave4dave 6 months ago
@sswave4dave that's where you went wrong, you based your decision on intellect, where does morality come from? Without God their is no morals. If you was sure in your decision im sure you wouldn't be posting on this video, that is your God given conscious speaking, i hope you rethink your decision as your eternal salvation depends on it. There is no free pass into heaven, you have already heard the word so their is no excuse.
k12rising 6 months ago
@k12rising You're actually at odds with most Christian apologists on a couple points. Most Christian apologists are not anti-intellectual, and most Christian apologists don't say morality doesn't exist without God. They say ABSOLUTE morality doesn't exist without God.
If hearing the gospel makes us eternally accountable, then preaching the gospel is the most viscous thing you could do to someone. It puts their afterlife in serious jeopardy, decreases their odds of going to Heaven.
sswave4dave 6 months ago
@sswave4dave well its seems you have already hardened your heart, i have no time to argue with an atheist but i know you've made the wrong decision and you will find out shortly.
k12rising 6 months ago
@k12rising Dude, can you make me a keygen or crack to get into Heaven? Please!!! That would be epic.
sswave4dave 6 months ago
Like mr. koule said, people everywhere have the information re: god. they readily follow false systems of belief in rebellion of the True God. these are not ignorant people. they will be judged not for rejecting jesus, but will be judged for rejecting the father whos evidence is everywhere. 2:00
serrano59 6 months ago
Ask ten Christians the question "What about those who have never heard?", and you will get ten different answers.
ryan84160 7 months ago
@ryan84160 what does that have to do with anything?
atbigdog24002 5 months ago
@atbigdog24002 It means they have no idea and they are just making shit up. They must either deny the fact that Yeshua said no one gets to the father but through him, or they must admit their "loving" god is justified in torturing people for all eternity because they lost the geographic lottery.
ryan84160 5 months ago
@ryan84160 Or some Christians haven't thought extensively about this topic and thus have an underdeveloped understanding of it. Secondly your dilemma has no support, we have no reason to suspect that those are the only options, therefore we ought to reject it as a false dilemma.
atbigdog24002 5 months ago
@atbigdog24002 I certainly think that is true for some Christians, but most serious Christians that I have spoken with seem to have given it quite a bit of thought. However, it seems the more they think about it the more they must twist gospel to fit with their idea of a benevolent God. Either that or they do somehow justify the fact that these poor people do deserve to roast in hell for all of eternity.
ryan84160 5 months ago
@atbigdog24002 "therefore we ought to reject it as a false dilemma." How could it possibly be a false dilemma ? Unfortunately we are bound by the law of the excluded middle.Either we can get to heaven without having heard the name of Christ, or God is somehow justified in having these people tortured for all of eternity.
Of course I am always open to be persuaded, so if you have an argument, I would love to hear it.
ryan84160 5 months ago
@ryan84160 It's a false dilemma because there's a third alternative, namely that we can get to heaven without ever hearing of Christ, but through him. This just means although we may not now of his existence consciously we can still be saved because of his death on the cross(aka, God punished Jesus for our sins so we don't have to bear their cost).
atbigdog24002 5 months ago
@atbigdog24002 How is that a third alternative ? This is direct violation of what scripture says. Scripture teaches that faith is a requirement for justification. romans 5:1,ephesians 2:8-9,romans 10:4, galatians 3:24
ryan84160 5 months ago
@ryan84160 It is a third alternative because faith is involved, namely faith in the creator of the universe as revealed through general revelation. This is the way Jews were saved in the Old Testament and how Job was saved. Again, although these people don't know about Jesus, they can still be saved through Christ's atonement because of their faith in God.
atbigdog24002 5 months ago
@atbigdog24002 The bible clearly says that they must have faith IN CHRIST. Someone that belongs to a tribe in the amazon that has never had contact with the outside world and worships the sun God Nobatuntu,the river God Kentesha,the rain God Gordansa, practices cannibalism or other "savage" practices is not guaranteed salvation simply because they have never heard.
If this were true, why would missionaries ever try to convert them ?
ryan84160 5 months ago
@ryan84160 You are right in saying that people who have never heard and practice cannibalism and worship the sun God etc., etc. are not guranteed salvation, but it is not because they have never heard, it is because they accepted the false Gods around them and rejected the one true Creator that is revealed by general revelation. The reason missionaries try to convert people is because almost no one will actually reject their culture's false God's and worship the God that is revealed in nature.
atbigdog24002 5 months ago
@atbigdog24002 Are you saying that these people can know who Jesus is and that he is the one true God without ever hearing about him ? This makes absolutely no sense.
ryan84160 5 months ago
@ryan84160 If people have never heard of Jesus, then no, they don't know who jesus is, but they can still be saved if they reject the false gods around them and follow the one true God that is revealed by general revelation, but there have been many stories of God using various ways to reach people who haven't had missionaries reach them yet. But obviously almost none will be saved through general revelation.
atbigdog24002 4 months ago
@atbigdog24002 So you think its unreasonable for people to know who Jesus is without having heard of him , but you think its perfectly reasonable for people to know the father without ever having heard is name ? I would say it would be more like none rather than almost none. But even still, a God that is willing torture "almost" everyone that had not heard for all eternity for something that is beyond their control is an absolute monster.
ryan84160 4 months ago
@ryan84160 It is perfectly reasonable for people who haven't heard God's name to know him, they just wouldn't know him by that name. And, the orthodox view of hell isn't that God eternally tortures people for something that's is out of their control, rather the orthodox view is that people freely reject God as revealed by natural revelation, and in choosing the to reject God they accept hell, which can most accurately be defined as complete and utter separation from God.
atbigdog24002 4 months ago
@atbigdog24002 So you think a tribe in the middle of the amazon that has never had contact with the outside world could possibly believe in the God of the bible without ever hearing a word of the bible ? This sounds ridiculous to me.
Even if this does happen, you said that is would almost never happen. If this almost never happens,how could they possibly choose to reject a God they have never heard about and know absolutely nothing about.
ryan84160 4 months ago
@ryan84160 There are a plethora of stories from missionaries who have encountered tribesmen who've said that they already knew Jesus. It certainly seems absurd, but the fact is God works in wondrous ways(sry really cliche i know :P). I would think it would usually happen more like it did to a missionary friend of mine, who encountered a group of people in asia who had never heard the gospel but they said they had been having dreams and the instant my missionary friend mentioned jesus they said
atbigdog24002 4 months ago
@atbigdog24002 If you actually think there are people that somehow knew about Jesus without so much as hearing a word about him, I am terribly sorry, but you are a complete moron. Because some missionary said something does NOT make it true.
ryan84160 4 months ago
@ryan84160 I do believe that, there are plenty of stories from missionaries who have encountered a similar story to the one you described. The reason they reject the God is by accepting the false religions, and they don't have to know of this God by name, as Paul talks about in the first few chpts of romans, we are all culpable because of general revelation by nature.
atbigdog24002 4 months ago
@atbigdog24002 You have already said that very few people that havn't heard wont be saved. Why does god make is soooooooooooooooo much easier for people that live in Christian majority countries and make it make it incredibly difficult for others ? and unfortunately this is one of the most minor offence of YHWH.
ryan84160 4 months ago
@atbigdog24002 "general revelation by nature" does not exists.When we look at nature we have not so much as found one single,tiny,solitary,spec of a fraction of a fraction of a shred of evidence for the existence of a YHWH.
ryan84160 4 months ago
@ryan84160 Is this(your previous post) a point about what the Bible says or about whether there's evidence for God that can be found in nature? I just need a clarification, because they are obviously different question, but interesting point.
atbigdog24002 4 months ago
@atbigdog24002 If you mean my very last post, I meant that nature does not reveal any evidence for God at all.
ryan84160 4 months ago
@atbigdog24002 Also, the bible clearly ways that knowing Christ is the only way. So even if they did someone come the realization that the creator of the universe is the Yaweah character of the old testament, they would also need to understand that he sent is son (who is also himself) to earth to be tortured and executed to forgive the sins of mankind.
ryan84160 4 months ago
@ryan84160 Yes that is an interesting thought, but my position is that Christ is the only way, and what that means is that the only way one is saved is because of Christ's sacrifice. One needn't know about Christ necessarily.
atbigdog24002 4 months ago
@atbigdog24002 Then what is the point of preaching the gospels all around the world?
ryan84160 4 months ago
@ryan84160 Good question, as I've already stated an extraordinarily small amount of ppl will come to saving faith through general revelation(aka natural revelation) and by doing missions we can potentially increase the amount of people saved. Also, we have an obligation to carry out the great commission, but that was to make disciples, not "convert" lots of people, so that doesn't necessarily require that preaching of the gospel to the very corners of the earth per se.
atbigdog24002 4 months ago
@ryan84160 where does the bible clearly show that knowing Christ is the only way? If that is the case how were the Old Testament Jews saved? How was Job saved, he didn't even have the Pentateuch.
atbigdog24002 4 months ago
@atbigdog24002 John 3:16 for example.
That was under the old covenant, obviously you can't have faith in saviour that died for your sins if it had not happened yet. Some would say that Jews were only saved if they had faith in the coming Messiah. Some would say that the requirement for faith in Christ only took effect after he was sacrficed for the sins of humanity. Doesn't really matter to me though.
ryan84160 4 months ago
So people who didn't hear the gospel are in hell? It really didn't answer my question. I'm Native American and I asked a pastor what happened to my ancestors before the discovery of "the new world"? He simply said they all went to hell. I think it's not fair for my ancestors to be in hell without ever hearing the gosepl of Christ.
joshlazarus 7 months ago
@joshlazarus Whats fair is that we all go to hell. But its Gods Grace that some may go to heaven
Mankey43 7 months ago
@Mankey43 It's not fair that my Native American ancestors are burning in hell without having a chance to hear about the Gospel. I don't care how you put it, God is cruel for burning people that haven't had the chance to hear about the gospel.
joshlazarus 7 months ago
@joshlazarus Gods ways are mysterious to us. According to scripture God says the wages of sin are death and though I dont think the indians will be judge for denying christ as they simply did not know, they will still be judge for sining as we all have a common ancestor of Noah and his family, So some one along the line denied his descendants knowladge of the one true God and there fore damned them all and his punish ment is seven fold as mentioned in the bible.
Mankey43 7 months ago
@joshlazarus but you see the bible holds only the people who know, and have knowladge, accountable The indians in perspective to the the other contineints had no way to learn or understand the bible I can not say for sure but since they could not understand or even reach the Truth they may have hope of the salvation extended to the mentally simple and infants.
Mankey43 7 months ago
This question is easily answered. They will have a different standard of judgement.
Luke 12:47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
zxcvbnm103 8 months ago
Let me give this scenario: What if I was a parent and I had five kids. All of them were sinking. ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT I ONLY HAVE 2 LIFE VESTS!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I WOULD LOVE THEM TO DEATH, given all their sin! I would throw FIVE of them out, and for those who choose to grab hold, I will rejoice! For those who choose not to, I will WEEP!!!!! THAT IS GOD. God isn't just going to throw out 2, and be like, well, the rest don't deserve it anyway! How repugnant of a belief!
Limbsy 8 months ago 2
But ABOUT this American fairness. God expects us to know His law, but how can we obey his law if even our mere sense of fairless is skewed? I don't believe our view of fairness is skewed. Yes we don't deserve God's favor, but does God want to save us or not? You are presenting a Megalomaniacal Tyrannical God that chooses to love some and dispense others like a Nazi! That's NOT GOD. Yes, we DESERVE HELL! BUT! Does God want to save us or not? Not some, but all?
Limbsy 8 months ago
But I agree, yes, they are NOT ignorant, they know MUCH that God has given. But this video tries to comfort Christians, but it falls empty. NO MATTER how you slice and dice it. Ok, they aren't judged for what they haven't heard, but what they have. STILL, the SHIP is sinking, and the GOD OF ALL LOVE IS NOT THERE TO SAVE. That's the bottom line! No matter how you try to justify it, that's what's happening. This isn't a comforting video for those who YES have this AMERICAN 'fairness'
Limbsy 8 months ago
I don't mean to be annoying Greg lol, I like to make people think. But you said, it's what these people DO WITH WHAT THEY HAVE that matters, but I believe that you falsely state that they readily follow false systems. There are people who REALLY want to know God follow him. You're wrong that all those who haven't heard the gospel somehow automatically flee to evil doctrine, though yes, they sin, and they know it, but many try to find God, with all due respect, its disingenuous not to admit that.
Limbsy 8 months ago
That is so true. I am glad I found this video on youtube.
livingfaith17 9 months ago
This makes a lot of sense, but what about Romans 10, which says "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?" It makes it seem that people around the world have to actually hear about and know who Jesus is in order to be saved, or else they will be condemned, and not just be judged by what they already know.
JesusIsLordForever 9 months ago
@eyallev I've never heard anyone claim that DNA was ever in a perfect state, and aren't the mutations that have brought us to homo sapien the mutations that added to our DNA positive characteristics such as intelligence? So don't blame your evolutionary tree for your lack of intelligence, blame yourself for not trying harder in school.
mraaronreynolds 9 months ago
Greg basically said God is more holy than He is loving...
SaveThePerishing 10 months ago
ok, so a mentaly handicaped person that is unable to understand the complexaty of the world, that thinks "duuuu .... the world is, because it's here duuuuu ..." would not be punished for not believing in god, right?
So I, as a person of average intellatance (mind you, I've already suffered 6000 years of mutation to my once perfect DNA) may not be able to understand reality for all it's greatness, So I'm not really guildty of not believing in god, I'm just not "smart enought" to be a believer.
eyallev 10 months ago
This apologetic makes sense. Most preachers tip-toe through the tulips or duck under the pulpit when this question arises! Gear answer Greg!
inthebeginnings 1 year ago
Where have all the men of logic gone?
The days of Aristotle are behind us.
I guess it's time to accept subserviance to the whims of mystics and pseudo-philosophers.
No wonder H.G. Wells' final words were, "God Damn you all!"
hartleywill 1 year ago
@hartleywill lol what? Aristotle was good in all but I don't see why some of todays modern philosophers are much worse. What exactly constitutes a pseudo-philosopher?
FatalKnight 11 months ago
So you should stop poreaching, so no one will hear about Jesus and we'll all go to heaven. YAY!!!!!!
HughieDixon 1 year ago
@huffle: are you saying on "right" and "wrong" that this is dictated based upon my mind and gained awareness, etc? More specifically, do you mean by that, this right and wrong are pretty much up to each person's view of what is right and wrong, and that is just how it is and we should accept that? I am just seeking clarification to understand where you are coming from. your post caught my attention. thanks for any further clarification.
nowaydudebook 1 year ago
I have NO information that leads me to believe that I owe my behavior to the moral standards of a 'god of the universe'!! Nobody does!!
I have my own experience of life. Life is NOT about 'bending the knee' to a dictator. Its about respecting life itself - including one's own impulses.
'Right' and 'wrong' are by-products of a mind having gained awareness of its own nature. It has nothing to do with a supernatural being somewhere 'out there'.
This man is talking politics, NOT religion.
Hufflewaffle 1 year ago
@Hufflewaffle
You have no information because you have plainly not bothered to look, or you're just ignorant to facts laid out plainly before you.
It's a shame to see what Darwinism do to people. Darwinism, now THERE's something that doesn't have the necessary information to prove the view of life it tries to make.
Let me ask you a question. Where did you get your life from? Who/what gave it to you? Why are you here?
Lundolf 1 year ago
I do believe in objective reality, but I can't agree with Mr. Koukl about how everybody knows the right and wrong. To some people in history it has been very common sense that there is nothing wrong with having slaves, or killing or raping somebody from a different tribe. But today it is common sense to us that it's wrong to own slaves. Maybe the moral law is written on our hearts, but it gets skewed by culture.
Jugglable 1 year ago
Good grief Charlie Koukl?? How do YOU know what god would/would never do?
drumrnva 1 year ago 2
@drumrnva The Bible?
SeraphsWitness 1 year ago
@SeraphsWitness The bible has a bunch of info about yahweh. But that's just information, not knowledge. If he didn't have the bible, on what would he base his knowledge of what yahweh would or wouldn't do? And even if you're just going by the bible, that god has wiped the slate clean (nearly) before. He's taken revenge on behalf of the Israelites, made bears attack boys because they called someone names, etc. How can you make any assumptions about what he will do?
drumrnva 1 year ago
@drumrnva I guess I'm confused by the difference between information and knowledge. Knowledge is the state of understanding information, isn't it?
Firstly, the "bear attack" in Kings is taken out of context and unfortunately poorly translated in many versions. I'd be happy to clarify it for you if you're interested.
More importantly, is it unreasonable to be able to draw future conclusions based on past behavior? I don't think so. What about what God tells use about himself? Can't we trust it?
SeraphsWitness 1 year ago
@SeraphsWitness Please provide context for the bear story. To me information is what's written down. Knowledge is what one has experienced/applied. We've got plenty info about miracles, but I've yet to be convinced that ANYONE has knowledge of them. If nobody had ever discovered or translated any of of the gospels, how would we have any information about Jesus? The deity and the dogma are inseparable. If YOU can trust it and it brings you contentment/peace/happiness, -OK. I can't.
drumrnva 1 year ago
If they already have what they need why spread the Gospel?
linghun 1 year ago
I'm so glad this video is up. I have encountered this topic so often among atheists, two of which are actually best friends of mine, as a means for arguing against the Christian God and it has always made me wonder if the people who present arguments like this actually study the Bible's text, not just read it, but actually study it. I also here the question of "If he's so merciful, why doesn't he give us people who questioned him a second chance?" My reply: Each day is another chance.
jlangston23 1 year ago
@moranplano I've seen "evidence" of past lives and it seems it's all either coincidence, hoax, or made up. I know reincarnation is a nice thing to believe, but I could never believe in something that's not the truth. And can you please explain to me how you can be so sure that what you've experienced isn't just your imagination or dreams?
Lampala123 1 year ago
@turok25 Excellant point. I often direct people, since they're already on YOUTUBE, to go ahead and type in Near Death Exp. or Past Lives or Out of Body Exp. and see the insights that everyday people, who are not trying to sell anything, have from geniune accounts of a Mystical nature. GOD is not an idiot who let things get so out of control, then punishes Man for it. Rather the world's a school and everyone is hopefully moving forward.
moranplano 1 year ago
@moranplano Scripture plainly states that Satan is the prince of the power of the air, and that he masquerades as an angel of light. He is very capable of allowing someone who opens themselves up to the mystical to experience things that are spiritual but not holy, especially when the bible condemns such practices. How can you be sure God is behind your experiences?
rlhoope526 1 year ago
@rlhoope526 pt.1 The fact that.."..scripture plainly states.." isn't proof either. If people can't have or believe in Higher Exp. then what's left for them to believe in..just blind faith in 'hand me down' dogma of a questionable source? Remember, Jesus and the Apostles didn't sit down and come up with a Bible. That in itself speaks volumes. The Bible was organized and put out by a Roman Emperor and church officials centuries later. Much was added to (worship of Mary, confession...
moranplano 1 year ago
pt.2 ..excommunication, etc) that the prostestants later threw out. And didn't the Apostles "open themselves up to Mystical Experiences"? Paul said that.."he knew a man caught up in the third heaven whether in the body or out of the body etc." THAT was a Mystical experience. Does the Bible condemn this? Church officials don't want anyone (even today) having Mystical exp. that challenge their dogma. Imagine, parishoners recalling past lives. That's one reason they killed the Gnostics.
moranplano 1 year ago
@moranplano Scripture has been attested as one of the most reliable historical documents written. There is more than enough proof to provide evidence for it's existence and accuracy. A faith that changes the lives of people across an entire planet is not a blind faith. It is a relationship with a living Lord. Scriptures were recorded in written form beginning with the Old Testament and going forward.
rlhoope526 1 year ago
@rlhoope526 No religion going out to the MASSES will ever get by unscathed. With the Salvation of All Souls on the table, and Eternal Damnation in Fire as the alternative, Jesus surely would have jotted some things down to avoid confusion. Jesus' message was GOD IS LOVE and the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS WITHIN. The Salvation and Damnation came from the Roman Emperor to control the people. If people knew what SOUL IS, they would know that throwing IT into a Lake of Fire would have no effect.
moranplano 1 year ago
@moranplano First, Christianity is a relationship with Christ and one that sincerely follows His teaching and involves a change of heart via the Holy Spirit. It isn't intended to be a mass religion of do's and do not's. He did say however, that if we love Him, to keep His commandments. Second, when it comes to confusion, Jesus spoke in parables many times rather than just laying out there and requiring no thought. He knows those who seek Him and those who don't.
rlhoope526 1 year ago
@moranplano Fact is, there are many who won't believe no matter what evidence is shown or how simple or complex it may seem. Third, Jesus spoke of Hell quite a few times (Matt. 5:22, Matt. 5:29-30, Matt. 10:28, and three more times just in Matthew, not to mention several more in just the Gospels). So eternal damnation in firewas clearly referenced by the Creator of our universe. As far as what paul was speaking of, it was dying to self or to the desires of this world and following Christ.
rlhoope526 1 year ago
@moranplano If Paul and Jesus truly spoke of and taught out of body experiences, where are the endless sermons concerning this? Where do you find this expounded on time and time again within Scripture? No, it isn't there. That's because what they were teaching was putting off this world, humbling self, and exalting Christ. Even non-Christian scholars agree with this major theme of the Bible. You are missing something my friend. It's not about us or our experiences. It is only about HIm.
rlhoope526 1 year ago
@rlhoope526 pt1.First off, Jesus taught for three years, everything he spoke in the NT could have been said in 3 hours...what was left out? The Mystical Practice of DYING DAILY is advanced. It would have been taught around the campfire at night to the more advanced disciples...not to the public. Did you ever ask yourself what was the difference between an APOSTLE and a Good and Faithful parishioner? Every Saint or Enlightened Teacher came in contact with the LIGHT AND SOUND of GOD. (Paul...
moranplano 1 year ago
part 2..on the road to Damascus) At the PENTECOST, the Disciples were bathed in SPIRIT which came as...TONGUES OF FIRE AND THE RUSHING WIND..again..the Light and Sound. Why was so little of the Light and Sound put into the Bible? Simply, the Roman Church had no control over it, or any exp. with it. There were 18 Gospels, only 4 got put in. Much is left out. I don't FEAR GOD'S WRATH. I've had countless past lives. I've learned the world is just a school. We need to be uplifted not saved.
moranplano 1 year ago
@moranplano I think I see where you are coming from. My guess is you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God, and that you obviously don't believe in the Scripture we have. I don't really think there is much more I can say but to ask you how you deal with the issue of sin or wrong doing? You don't believe we need forgiveness, so wouldn't that make it easy to justify any lifestyle you choose? You can always just correct yourself the next time around, right? No need to worry about it too much?
rlhoope526 1 year ago
@moranplano No doubt you think that when Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again, you believe that solidifies your angle. In short, if we don't need to be saved, even though it was planned from before the foundation of the world, and if sin is not a problem, I really don't see why Christ came in the first place. Moran, there are conversations in Scripture where Jesus is alone with the Apostles and He teaches them and expounds on some of the deeper issues of His philosophy.
rlhoope526 1 year ago
@moranplano Nowhere in the accepted gospels or anywhere else in Scripture is it spoken of in the way you describe. Why would Scripture declare such things as faith in God, forgiveness of sins, a respectful fear of God, baptism, humility, and holiness? The doctrines you speak of is exactly what makes the death of Christ in vain. Jesus said He came to seek and save those that were lost. You say we don't need saving. Only the Holy Spirit is from God and HE lines up with Scripture. Does yours?
rlhoope526 1 year ago
@rlhoope526 pt.1 You're right, there isn't much more to talk about. All the troubles of the world weren't caused by a fallen angel that GOD could easily have stopped or because two people ate a piece of fruit. I was a preacher in Kansas in the old west. It was a good life. But, when I died, I crossed over and went before the Judgement. I was grateful to learn that there was no Eternal Damnation. Good people go to good places. It doesn't matter what you believe. Really, rlhoope, had you..
moranplano 1 year ago
pt.2..been born in Saudi Arabia wouldn't you be spouting fundamental Islam right now. What about if you had been born an Apache in the 12th century. How could you have found the "One Way". A PERFECT GOD HAS A PERFECT CREATION. That doesn't mean GOD burns billions of his Children because they didn't find "the Blood". Rather, HE keeps incarnating them over and over until they reach a certain LEVEL OF PERFECTION, then they graduate. You're right, this is NOT found in the Bible. I walked....
moranplano 1 year ago
pt. 3..out of the preacher life Judgement, happy to be in one of the Heavens, but still dismayed to find out that so much of what I taught simply wasn't true. Bad people go to bad places but they are temporary. Eventually all SOULS make it back..a PERFECT GOD WOULDN'T have it any other way.. So, what is the PURPOSE OF LIFE HERE? TO BE SAVED? GOD could've saved everyone by just wiping the slate clean with Adam and EVe. Think about it. Maybe we're here to learn to LOVE UNCONDITIONALLY.
moranplano 1 year ago
@moranplano I'm afraid it really doesn't matter where I would have been born. The main difference between you and I is that I try to see God as the Scriptures declare him. He is sovereign and He has complete control over His creation, just as you would if you created the world. It is only by His divine grace that I was born here. This is an attribute of God that many people will never understand and will run from. It may not seem pleasant, but after all, only God is God.
rlhoope526 1 year ago
@moranplano No further mandate was required from Christ concerning putting together a Bible which isn't really the argument. We all know it's a compilation of 66 books and not just one. Besides, Jesus said that His word would never pass away, indicating that He would preserve it. As far as Paul's reference of a man being caught up in the third heaven, he is speaking of a spiritual experience that he himself had (ref. 2 Corinthians verses 1-10).
rlhoope526 1 year ago
@moranplano Paul was sharing his spiritual experience in the third person to show the Corinthians that he had an experience greater than theirs because they were bragging about their own. It was a moment that God saw fit to give Paul a "thorn in the flesh" as he describes it, so that he would not exalt himself, but rather God, to which God told him that His grace would be enough to see Paul through life despite the infirmity he had been given. This vision or experience was for God's glory.
rlhoope526 1 year ago
The DYING DAILY that St. Paul spoke of, is the Art of leaving one's body and travelling into the other worlds on a daily basis. Mystics call this SOUL TRAVEL. Imagine if one could do this all the questions about spiritual life that could be answered. Type in SOUL TRAVEL on YOU TUBE or google it. Perhaps you too could learn this Ancient Art. Ofcourse, the church might condemn you, as much of their dogma would be exposed as false. But, that's a risk many true seekers of GOD must take.
moranplano 1 year ago
This speaker talks like he has such authority on GOD. He has NONE. If he had any experience on the OTHER SIDE, he would know, that SOUL DOESN'T NEED TO BE SAVED, It's not lost, It's in school. GOD doesn't condemn anyone, they just have to reincarnate to work out their karma and advance spiritually. Which is exactly what they were sent here to do. In past lives, I have been heroes, villians, preachers and good and faithful servants of every religion. Eventually, every SOUL graduates.
moranplano 1 year ago
@moranplano You better preach! This is dogmatic jibberish hiding behind intellectualism. He got PWNED by Deepak Chopra.
herbaljunky 1 year ago
um..basically everyone in the known universe disagrees with you. chopra got handled especially in regards to the textual criticism and canonization of the bible. anybody with even an introductory knowledge of biblical history knows what he said was absolutely nonsense and it left many people in the field who commented on the interview puzzled as to what he even meant. to quote one of them "what is an 18th itteration anyway..what does that even mean?"
veritaslogos 1 year ago
@veritaslogos in ur uniworld. deepak destroyed him when he broke down the history of the fible. weak ass xtians r debatin on a faux issue.
herbaljunky 1 year ago
@herbaljunky okay herbal, what was deepak's strongest argument?
veritaslogos 1 year ago
@veritaslogos First of all Greg's conceptualization of God, and the limitations that he imposes through his faith. Deepak is very relaxed and thorough in his explaination of HIS limited perception of God. Greg speaks as if he has the right answer but he does not. re is very speculative in his argument using a lot of what ifs and maybes. Greg got crushed in using the analogy of medicine against Deepak as a medical doctor. But Deepak point out that there are various methods for healing the sick.
herbaljunky 1 year ago
@herbaljunky you didn't answer the question herbal,most of that was merely a personal attack on Greg. In what way did deepak's notion that there are different ways to heal negate Greg's point?
veritaslogos 1 year ago
@veritaslogos Greg is very defensive of the fact that he's very dogmatic through the use of rationale.
herbaljunky 1 year ago
@moranplano
Where did you come up with that way of thinking?
koolwings 1 year ago
@koolwings There are basically two approaches anyone can take to a religion, Orthodox and Mystical. The Orthodox is the Outer one, it centers around the things that priests can control, rituals, ceremonies, traditions. They give out promises of Heaven forever (just do exactly what we say). Failure to follow the prescribed procedures will always result.."In being cut off from GOD, forever!" Threats like Eternal fire, eternal cold, eternal darkness are always tendered..pt. 1
moranplano 1 year ago
pt. 2...The Mystical Path on the other hand, allows people to explore spiritual realities for themselves and prove things for themselves. One can RECALL a past life. Noone can see Jesus returning or a Lake of Fire. These are just faith based. One can exp. Divine Light and Sound (the Word) or see themselves as SOUL. I travel the path of ECKANKAR. It has has done all these things for me.
moranplano 1 year ago
This speaker contradicts himself in vague ways. He says GOD won't condemn people because they never heard of Jesus, but he will condemn them because they rejected the FATHER. Reject how? A 12th century Apache leads a good life, but he's not perfect, so has he rejected the FATHER? I have recalled many pastlives adn have come to know that this world is just a school, that Souls are sent to, to grow up. There is no Salvation or Damnation. The Bible is mostly what the church made it to be.
moranplano 1 year ago
who were you in your past lives?
wood9670 1 year ago
pt.1..Hardly know where to begin, I have been at this for many years. My first past life recall was triggered by a sudden painful breakup I didn't see coming. That night I found myself on the Time Track and ended up in a life in Kansas in the old west as a preacher. The woman and I had the same break up back then. I couldn't let go of the pain altogether, so I had to go thru it again this life and show more detachment. Since then, I have recalled past lives as a French woman, British...
moranplano 1 year ago
pt. 2...(wood8670)..publisher, Italian sailor, Egyptian nobleman, arab woman, chinese artist, russian explorer, Aztec mystic, Spanish explorer, Sufi writer, evil physician on Atlantis, going back to throwing stone spears at mastedons. I've done many good things and very vile things. Instead of burning me forever, or Forgiving my sins, GOD let me return here time and again, to settle accounts and learn more lessons. Religions come and go, SOUL is ETERNAL. We all find our way home, eventually.
moranplano 1 year ago
@moranplano hopefully, i got a lon way 2go lol!
herbaljunky 1 year ago
@moranplano hopefully, i got a long way 2go lol!
herbaljunky 1 year ago
you strawman Greg's view. It isn't merely that man isn't perfect, but rather that he sins against God knowingly of his own volition. This is what God will judge; every person has a conscience they knowingly violate and the just Judge of all man will see to it that people pay for their crimes. A good God would do that.
veritaslogos 1 year ago
I agree with you and Greg on the point that everyone has the Divine Good written in their heart, but Greg says that they knowingly rebel against GOD and worship a false system. People generally believe what they are raised to believe. If Greg were born in Saudi Arabia, I have no doubt that he would be preaching fundamental Islam. Is that a rebellion? THE JUDGEMENT I have found is just a life review, where SOUL can see It's mistakes and do better next time. Type in Past Lives on YOUTUBE.
moranplano 1 year ago
@moranplano prech my brotha!
herbaljunky 1 year ago
hitler was sure that he was doing gods bidding. he thought he was doing "right" and that the allied forces were "wrong"
read mein kampf
wlrugby 2 years ago
wlrugby Hitler burned bibles, what chapter does it say that he created the animals afterwards to be his companion please tell me so I can make sure you're reading it in context, secondly in the book of Job the word for the shape of the earth is chewg in Hebrew meaning spherical in shape. This book was written hundreds of years before Columbus' time when people still thought you could sail off the edge of the earth. That's prophetic.
LordS3F 2 years ago
wlrugby, I fail to see how you can reliably maintain this interpolation considering the fact that the nazi party was avowedly secular, made the catholic centrist party illegal, and conducted a variety of clergy trials following the period in which Pius XI issued the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge. I think its akin to claiming that the nazi party was representative of workers rights based on their political rhetoric, while ignoring the fact that they dissolved Germany's trade unions.
pgnC100 1 year ago
Oh yeah did I happen to mention that the Quran was written by one person 600 years after Christ and that the bible is composed by over 40 different authors on three different continents seperated by time and geography they give answers to lifes biggest issues and never disagree once over a period of 1500 + years. Hmmm that is miraculous in itself. God is God He can do whatever He wants God spoke and men of God wrote.
LordS3F 2 years ago
you honestly think they never contradict themselves? jesus modified a bunch of rules that hed been there before, so god was wrong when he spoke earlier apparently
the story of creation says god made the animals before he made man, but the garden of eden says god made the animals afterwards in an attempt to give adam a companion. the bible also makes references to a flat world. by the way im sorry that i'm commenting on this a week after you posted it
have a good one
wlrugby 2 years ago
What rules did Jesus modify?
LordS3F 2 years ago
Where the bible sais that God brought the flood. The Quran sais that Noah asked God to bring the flood to punish the world. Where the bible sais that God will bring judgment day. the Quran sais that Allahs people must bring about or provoke the end times. Also it contradicts itself in saying all of Noahs son's died and then one of Noah's sons lived.
LordS3F 2 years ago
10 commandments is God's universal law for mankind not Levitical law I don't know what you mean by God contradicts himself He's very particular yah know, maybe it's just that everyones a pseudo theologians and isn't particular of what context it's in because they only read one verse. I guess the bible is right that there will come a time when people perish because of their ignorance.
LordS3F 2 years ago
Personally I couldn't care less about what two men or woman choose to do. For as long as I could remember even as a child I was attracted to girls but that was not how God intended I was in a lesbian relationship and fornication. I paid for both. The fact is that now with people like Kageny head of NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association) on Bobos team they have this crazy sick agenda for sex ed for Kindergardeners.
LordS3F 2 years ago
Also at my church my good friend Gisela comes all the way from the Himalayas and my other friend Mike used to be an Arian Father and I'm black so the issue isn't what about other people the issue is with you. Will you today choose salvation.
LordS3F 2 years ago
You said that the stoning to death and those things was the law for God's holy people. It doesn't matter who the people were or what the reasons are, it doesn't change the fact that your loving God did these attrocites, killed babies etc. Then the bible contradicts itself by saying no don't do these things, don't do these things that your God has committed. And I thought God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
pricer5 2 years ago
Yes those are His People He can do what He feels is best for them. These laws were exclusively for His people, if you knew how easily the Jewish people were given over to idolatry and turn their hearts from their God and then they'd cry out He would heal His people in this cyclic pattern over and over Oh how many blessings they missed out on. God is a holy God he'll let us do what we want but when we try to be our own God hey it's not like he didn't warn us.
LordS3F 2 years ago
So because someone gave in to idolatry very easily, then that is justification to kill them? And so since God warned them then it is ok to do what he did? So if we give people that are doing really bad things, and give them warnings, then it is ok to stone them? And how is stoning people to death "what is best" for someone. Sounds like the bible is contradicting itself when it talks about forgiveness and loving your enemy and the emphasis it puts on human life.
pricer5 2 years ago
What good are these 25,000 archaeological discoveries.These discoveries do not prove that the bible is the word of God, or that the miracles that happened are true, they do not prove that Jesus was God or any of these things.
pricer5 2 years ago
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ANd you also said that "the bible does say that carnal mind cannot understand the word of God" DOn't you have a carnal mind?I guess you can't understand the bible either, who are you to tell me that my worldview is wrong, yours can't even be understood by the human mind..
pricer5 2 years ago
That doesn't mean God is relaxed on this issue, Christ says if you harm in any way one of these little ones. You' re better off tying a stone around your neck and jumping into deep waters. What he means is the consequence will be swift and the consequence will most often destroy that person.
LordS3F 2 years ago
Actually hell has different levels. He punishes each person according to their works. If you chose to live your life seperated from God then the punishment will go something like this spending eternity away from the presence of God. Scripturally if a person is truly contrite in their hearts and accepts Christ even a pedophile can go to heaven. That doesn't mean a transgression, that's an abomination to God to premeditate and say well I can just repent.
LordS3F 2 years ago
Although He is loving He is just and the law about stoning homosexuals well first that word didn't even exist until the 19th century, secondly it was referring to His people adopting the pagan practice of temple prostitution where His people were having orgies in His temple. God condemns all sex outside of the marriage covenant it's all the same to Him. People always say why does God allow these things, then when He does something they get mad He interfered.
LordS3F 2 years ago
By the way the rest is a history of Holy wars the way God said they would happen. Remember the bible is the only divinely inspired book that has fulfilled prophecy. And know they weren't just injected into the old testament because the manuscripts predate the archeological discoveries (some 25,000 of them) most often by hundreds of years. I don't think you know anything about the connotation of the bible, but the bible does say that carnal mind cannot understand the word of God
LordS3F 2 years ago
When a Muslim does some horrific act he is doing it because Allah said so in the Koran, if a supposed Christian does something horrific he is doing it in opposition to what Christ taught because there is no example of Christ teaching to kill. That is why in the crusades they used to baptize themselves and everything for their journey except for their swords because because Christ was not allowed control of their swords.
LordS3F 2 years ago
Did God say to stone to death homosexuals, did God kill babies, didn't God wipe out the earth with a flood, didn't God say to put to death people who worked on the sabbath? Yes God did say these things. So if someone were to read the bible then go out and do these things because they are things that their "loving" God did and approve of, then how is it wrong?
pricer5 2 years ago
Yeah that was for His Holy people he wanted them to be set apart and sanctified, that was His law for them. There is not one law that you should kill others from outside his people although there are many in the Quran there is countless verses that Allah sais if their is a person of the book or anyone who practices any other religion they should be torn limb from limb and God didn't destroy the whole world or else we wouldn't be here he rescued Noah and his sons and the animals.
LordS3F 2 years ago
I did look up those references, and guess what? They don't say anything about someone who is incapable of understanding.
Of course, back in Jesus' day, they probably would have thought my son was simply demon-possessed.
1ProudFemaleAtheist 2 years ago
here's a better question: What about those who are INCAPABLE of understanding the very concept of Jesus as a savior, or the concept of God? people with mental disabilities? My son has autism. He has fairly developed sense of wrong vs. right, but could never understand God or Jesus in the slightest. If Jesus is "the only way" how is my son ultimately "judged" by that standard when he CANNOT COMPREHEND?
1ProudFemaleAtheist 2 years ago
You are a wonderful mother who cares for your son. It is my understanding that those who are incapable of comprehension are not accountable as you and I. Accountability begins with the ability to reason. Scripture teaches that salvations begin in our minds (Acts. 8:30-31) and resonates in our heart (Rom. 10:9-15). Anyone that does not have the capacity to consider any evidence is safe
Bendspastor 2 years ago
It is "your" understanding.
Where in the bible does it say this? If you believe the bible to be the infallible word of God, it should specifically state this, should it not?
1ProudFemaleAtheist 2 years ago
Look up references that I gave in my post.
Bendspastor 2 years ago
If Jesus came to save all mankind, why did he not bother to preach to anyone except those that lived near his native lands? what about the millions and millions of natives around the world? hmmm I know why. Jesus was just a false prophet or lunatic or a fairytale. If God wanted to save everyone HE WOULD JUST DO IT!!!!!! He would not do some half-assed job! do you believe God lived in a womb for 9 months and emerged from a bloody vagina? GOD ALMIGHTY? get REAL MAN!
accelduetograv 2 years ago
Great, Logical, Biblical answer.
BonzaiJakab 2 years ago
Short, well thought out, and right to the point - nice job... again! :)
jasonwojtyna 2 years ago
If god won't send people to hell who haven't never heard of Jesus, then what would he do? Reincarnate them into the christian society? As far as I know there is no reincarnation in christianity.
Aung1988 2 years ago
Probably judge them according to their hearts. No, there is no reincarnation.
SeraphsWitness 2 years ago
but it is not fair to them , the others heard of jesus and accepted him as their savior , while them never heard of jesus and did not have the chance of having all their sins washed therefore not being able to live eternally with God, is that fair? because according to the bible only those pure will go to heaven
hovsec 2 years ago
It's God's decision. What is fair? God doesn't owe us anything. We all deserve punishment for our sins. He's completely justified in sending anyone he wants to hell, in the same way that He can save anyone He likes. Read Romans 9, its very interesting on that point.
Romans 9:21, "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"
Later He calls them "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"
SeraphsWitness 2 years ago
ok, so he created us to play with our lives as he pleases and he can do whatever he wants with us, even a human has more sense of responsability and value for life than god then,
just because he is god he can do whatever he wants to, thats why i dont believe in god, thats some sick shit honestly
hovsec 2 years ago
@hovsec
Where do you get your standard for "fair"?
If it was up to me I would let most people into heaven, one problem, it's not my heaven. God is a just God, sin has to be punished. God has revealed Himself to all people in general revelation, His creation. Jhn 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
koolwings 1 year ago
I love the way guys like this claim to know what God thinks and why He does stuff. Where do they get their information? From scripture? What a joke. Scripture was written by man and is full of mistakes and inconsistencies.
Check out this moral code from the Bible:
Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT
Exodus 12:29-30 NLT
Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT
Just Google it. What a loving character this God is....
warren52nz 2 years ago
Read "Letters from a skeptic." It gives clear answers for what you said.
DecKrash 2 years ago
What inconsistencies and mistakes are you talking about?
3dcoco 2 years ago
I'm talking about ALL of them. How about this obvious one for starters:
LEV 20:9 "'For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death: he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
LEV 20:10 "'The man who commits adultery with another man's wife, even he who commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
And the 6th commandment "Thou shalt not murder".
It's just too easy...
warren52nz 2 years ago
To say the Bible is full of inconsistencies can be debated, but to say its full of mistakes technically can't be said by you unless you know what the Bible should say.
Also these 2 verses from Leviticus that you bring up, for kicks lets assume its God's law, is saying there's a penalty for doing those acts. If thats God's law, whether you agree with it or not, whats the big deal if there is a penalty for breaking it.
So bringing up the "thou shalt not murder" doesn't follow
johnq527 2 years ago
so it would better said put like this, thosu shall not murder, but if i say so thou shall murder
i mean would u ppl really kill someone just because they had sex ?
god makes good ppl do bad things
hovsec 2 years ago
I agree with the larger question that there are contradictions in the Bible. But the commandment "do not murder" has nothing to do with capital punishment. At least in English, "murder" is by definition an illegitimate act of killing a human being. Capital punishment and acts of war are not included.
hueyfreeman2006 2 years ago
Well spoken my friend. NO human can or should speak with such authority on such a subject, as it is completely arrogant.
xpidgeonx 2 years ago
I've read johnq527's response several times and I can't follow the train of thought. Are you saying that if God tells you to break a commandment then it's OK because it's His commandment?
And "to say its full of mistakes technically can't be said by you unless you know what the Bible should say" doesn't make any sense to me. If I write "blue is red" in a book are you saying you can't say it's a mistake because you don't know what I "should have said"? I don't know what you're talking about.
warren52nz 2 years ago
I'd love to explain to you the difference between the Civil, Priestly, and Moral laws of the OT if you're interested.
If you don't read the bible without proper cultural context it can be very misleading.
SeraphsWitness 2 years ago
this is such rediculous reasoning - Sure, God might be manifest to all - but --- NOT God as Jesus. Why would a Jew brought up to love God with all his or her heart have any reason to believe that their "system" of belief is in any way false? What you really say here is that all who don't believe in Jesus as God are doomed to hell because we all should have known better -- THIS IS SO HATEFUL I'm sure it makes the loving God quite sad!
ShalomYal 3 years ago
perfectshots35 He is right hes not saying you dont have to believe in jesus to be saved, he says God wont judge anyone for something that they were unaware of. and then he argues on how everyone without exception is aware that there is a God "creator"
jerelesli 3 years ago