Speaking of vegetarian I found a pretty interesting book on Amazon Kindle that's worth checking out. It called "Why You Must Become A Vegetarian". Definitely worth checking out
The needs of the many - trillions of innocent vegetarian cows chickens pigs and turkeys needlessly bred and murdered for people who refuse to chane their selfish habits - does outweigh the needs of the few, in this case.
Stalin & the Red Army and millions of supporters of the Spanish Inquisition and other catholic murderers and torturers also murdered and tortured animals, both to eat and for fun.
@ElledieWildAndFree I actually do think Hitler claimed to be vegetarian, and an animal-lover. This is most likely not true, and he did this only to gain the people's affection even more, to make him look more like a good guy. So there you go, even Hitler knew vegetarian had the more right, ethical way to live their life :P Even though he didn't follow that himself, but come on.. he's Hitler.. Do you want to be Hitler, meat-eaters? :P Haha, sorry, couldn't help myself..
Half of these men were NOT vegetarians. Some merely wrote a few words about the subject, yet we know nothing about their diets.
There are many more talented artists, scientists, saints or philosophers who loved eating meat, from Abraham and Aristotle to Einstein or Sojhenitsyn. And lots of bastards who were/are vegans, like Hitler or Lee Carroll (founder of the Kryon cult)... So... what? This vid is pure propaganda.
Im a vegan and my school offers NOTHING vegan! I bring my luch everyday but i dont even like seeing meat. Just seeing it makes me wanna cry becuz i think of the animal that suffered for that hot dog or meatloaf. I am gonna talk to my principle about it i guess. Maybe more salad and greens instead of meat. GO VEGAN!
that is the reason i went Veg.... when i still ate meat, i'd not see a tasty meal in front of me... i'd see a victim of murder... and it made me think differently about meat. I was fortunate that my school had a snack area that served different things than what was on the school menu... I'd usually buy a salad, or a bean burrito.
oh no :( thats no bueno....Yea our salads had chunks of ham in them, kind of like a Cobb salad. I would pick the meat out first before i ate the salad. You should find out if there are other vegetarians at the school, then from there have them sign a petition.... after that take it up with the PTA. They should have accommodations for everyone. They provide meat for meat eaters, why not veggie options for us? Good luck with that hon!
Just becuz i ask for a salad without it loaded with chicken That makes me a brat? I think not. You just dont know what its like to care about animals enough to not want to eat them. So this conversation is over.
most veggies become less aggressive and violent towards other people . peta has angenda. they support animals rights over creature rights ,they animals above people i love them all just the same. people and animals offer different things to the planet but they both are beautiful.
@truth2748 i do not know what kinda shit u on but my have a nice one in your misery, if u talking about just american bible thumpers. then point well taken
Just absurd to claim that "Plato was vegetarian". Absolutely no source can support that claim. His book "The Banquet" is NOT a list of veggie recipes...!
As long as you vegans condemn me to a horrible death, I don't see a reason to change. Peer pressure has always pissed me off. I refuse to cave because of a few death threats.
your so threatening yourself by not getting full connection with the source but pain and misery.love you and does poor animals that may be cursing within you i hope they forgive you.
what give you impression i don't care about you? i care a lot that's why i am here i want you to be able to evolve as a good person not a monster dont forgive me for this is true.love you as much as all those lives within you that have been lost but you still have a chance.
I can hear you lying. You just want me dead, like half the vegans of the world. Have you ever seen the murderous threads rampant throughout PETA's threads? total hypocrites there and I see nothing different here.
How about you weed out the horrible vegans, then I'll consider changing. For now, your words mean nothing to me.
dont call me a lier man im not and i have no reason to maybe i do plur out everything i think without first checking it over but what i do think i to mean so my bad for the sounding but you are the reader of it and dont you feel unity ?
that is very disgusting that there are vegans that would feel so =/
really i think this world can be saved by hemp and water gun war of love
No vegan/vegetarian in there right mind would support PETA...they are a big load of corporate shit, and have their own agenda they don't speak for us all.
you are crazy who wants you dead, don't flatter yourself...
i can agree and disagree with that statement. PETA is very very biased... but they do promote veganism and vegetarianism. The celebrities that are associated with PETA also donate a lot of money to good causes like ABC(animal birth control) and also to going green and all that stuff.... But i do agree PETA is full of propaganda as well
Sigh problem is vegetarians care too much...most are put in the spotlight becuse we are the minority can't tell you how many times i've been asked "where do you get your protein" or been called a putang/bia....really idk why we bother the smart ones will find the truth.
Nice vid, but I still think I'll remain on my omnivore diet. Say horrible things if you want, but I just can't do a vegan life. If only you all respected that.
I always love how meat eaters are the first ones to start a fight with a vegetarian.
I also love how this moron is trying to link vegetarians to mass murder because of Hitler.
Sad. If you feel the need to defend your diet so vehemently, you must obviously feel deep down that there IS something wrong with it. Otherwise you would let others live their own lives according to how they see fit.
@rhiannonator "If you feel the need to defend your diet so vehemently, you must obviously feel deep down that there IS something wrong with it. Otherwise you would let others live their own lives according to how they see fit." - yeah, that's why there are so many pro meat interest groups and domestic terrorist organizations bent on force feeding their dietary views on everybody else....oh...wait a minute; I guess the PETA, ELF, ALF triad really is one side of a coin with out its opposite.
I believe the "pro-meat" lobby you speak of does exist: it's called industrial farming. I must say a MUCH larger lobby in Washington than PETA. Right, "Rebel"?
Also, I don't belong to PETA, ELF, or any of that nonsense. In fact, I'm a professional chef that cooks meat daily. However, in MY personal life, I'm not interested in it. So you see, you "maverick-rebel" you, vegetarian does not always equal asshole hippie. It's for health reasons, dip-shit.
@rhiannonator First of all, the industrial farming lobby includes producers that supply fruits and vegetables exclusively; industrial farming is by no means anti-vegetarian or vegan. There will always be a market for meat; the meat industry doesn't waste its time trying to convert vegetarians; their lobby base in Washington is purely an economic one.
@rhiannonator In addition, I never even suggested anywhere that vegetarians= asshole hippie. I was merely pointing out that contingents within the vegetarian movement do not "let others live their own lives according to how they see fit'. They use coercion, harassment, vandalism, and even terrorism to push their agenda. Like I said before, no equivalent elements can be found amongst those who promote an omnivorian diet. Oh, and the 'rebel' in my screen name refers to my Southern heritage, fyi.
We usually call "elite" all decision makers at a high level, whether we like them or not. Hitler was one, so was Stalin or Mao. Thus Hitler fits evidently among the "Elite vegetarians of the world".
Besides, Einstein was not a vegetarian, although he supported the idea in his old age. Nor were Newton or Plato. Why faking history to push your agenda?
Your sentence has no more coherence than the thought it attempts to express. An animal is not my cousin. Normal people don't feel guilty when they eat meat - not more than animals themselves : On the contrary, it's a pure pleasure - unless one is impregnated with some weird old puritan poison. Yes, I believe that this typical British-American vegetarianism is a secular version of good old puritanism.
i care to connect with every living being without eating them, because when you eat something that doesnt wanna be eaten your just conflicting pain inside you and your concussion and will never be able to evolve,all the carnivores eat meat because they have to to survive and cannot help it , if i could i would give fruit they'd love so they too can feel the connection with direct source.
I really think vegetarianism is the way to go against animal cruelty. What I found interesting was Tsem Tulku Rinpoche, in his video, The Joy of Liberating Animals on Youtube, advised his students to turn vegetarian to create the causes to build an animal sanctuary or shelter. This is to show their commitment to care for animals instead of just saying they care. We dont really care for animals if we keep eating them every meal!
i have 3 years since i became vegetarian, and i can tell you folks, Is so So so diferent when i wake up, during the day. the benefits are incredible. try it.
If you teach a child that it's okay to set ablaze the home of people who don't live on their block, they'll be more likely to commit arson on their block as well. So teach them arson is always wrong.
The same applies to being cruel and uncaring about sentient beings. If you teach people that it's okay to be cruel to any sentient creature, they're more likely to apply that same standard to humans. If you teach that cruelty is okay, expect people to be cruel.
If a study into serial killers seems applicable to meat eaters in general and makes you happy then you go for it mate.
Its comes across like your reaching when you dont really need to.Leave the study of serial killers to the FBI and just concentrate on dismantleing battery farming.
This is your arguement.I've been trying to identify and do away with it.
Unfortunatley if your study into serial killers is applicable as evidence,so to is the fact that those thousands of people you pass in the street every day who aren't serial killers,many who probably happen to be meat eaters,normal everyday types,are also valid evidence for the fact that meat eating dosen't make unhinged killers,as the majority of tax paying,law abiding citizens attests to.
eels05, - RE: "This is your arguement.I've been trying to identify and do away with it."
Yes you have; by "arguing" against it. It never ceases to amaze me that so many people think only one side is "arguing" an issue. - RE: "if your study into serial killers is applicable as evidence,so to is the fact that those thousands of people you pass in the street every day who aren't serial killers"
Exactly!
It's a matter of ratios. And your ideas produce a higher ratio of serial killers.
If someone is torturing animals as a child its probably a symptom of childhood abuse,emotional isolation,parental rejection,or loss of a parent.Your taking a symptom of a real problem and turning it into the main focus.
Guess we should all be thankful you work a phone and never got into psychiatric councelling.
eels05, - RE: "Your taking a symptom of a real problem and turning it into the main focus."
And you're suggesting that highly trained professionals in the FBI, failed to take that into account. - RE: "Guess we should all be thankful you work a phone and never got into psychiatric councelling."
Nice try at ad hominem. It's also a severe oversight on your part. What do you suppose I do when suicidal people call me? I get around 4 to 6 a year and in 26+ years, haven't lost one yet.
eels05, - RE: "Leave the study of serial killers to the FBI"
I did leave it up to them. And they found the results I presented - people who practice cruelty to animals are more likely to become serial killers than those who don't.
I can see that you loathe that reality, but it's a reality, none-the-less.
So the solution is to choose not to be cruel to any sentient creatures and to teach children that all cruelty is wrong.
Your problem is that you know this takes the stake off your plate.
Actually I'll just make this general statement to both Beastt17 and kesisu,seeing as your both fond of insisting I put myself in the animals shoes and volunteer myself for slaughter.
How about you both go stand out in a field,and eat only grass,with no medical treatment,no protection or shelter.When you die from starvation or sickness I promise we'll let your body rot where it stands,or get picked clean by scavengers.We wont even feed your carcass to our pets..So how about it then?
Do you see the extent to which you have to suggest the ridiculous (that a monogastric herbivore attempt to consume the diet of a multigastric herbivore), just to try to avoid the point we've made?
Certainly, even someone who has attempted to hide the fact that other animals feel just as humans do, can understand that an animal living a natural life is not the same as one being slaughtered. So suppose you actually allow your natural human compassion to speak to you.
I'll take that as a complete evasion of everything stated so far. Otherwise you have to admit that all of your points fail. You want to eat meat and to serve that singular selfish lust of the tongue, you'll ignore the suffering, pain and loss of life endured by other sentient creatures, just for your dining pleasure.
I just pointed out you ignored my suggestion you go live the ideal domesticated animal lifestyle till death.Kind of like how you and your friend have constantly suggested I go stand in line in a slaughterhouse.
eels05 - RE: "you ignored my suggestion you go live the ideal domesticated animal lifestyle"
You suggested that I - a human (and MONO-gastric herbivore) - attempt to live the life of a MULTI-gastric herbivore which subsists on a completely different kind of diet. That's purely absurd. One can see that your argument has declined to the ridiculous.
I suggested that since you claim there are kind methods of slaughter, that you subject yourself and your family to said "kindness". Why resist?
It's interesting that you see how ridiculous it is, once you apply it to creatures for which you hold an emotional value. Yet with creatures for which you hold only a lust for taste, you suggest the exact same treatment is "kind".
Granted it most certainly IS a ridiculous argument. But it's YOUR argument. You only seem to recognize the absurdity when we exchange the cows for people. Why is that? Could it be your prejudice, bias and subjectivity?
I don't find your suggestion annoying at all. I grew up in rural Connecticut & I sincerely love wandering in big open fields, feeling the warmth of the sunshine on my face & the cool breeze blowing through my hair. I'm quite positive animals enjoy similar conditions. On the other hand I dislike concentration camp type situations & I'm certain animals take no pleasure in them either. We are suggesting that animals be allowed to live natural lives. You are insisting that they die unnatural deaths.
Yes animals do enjoy similar conditions,and its made them some of the most succesfull species of animal to have ever lived.But yes there is a price to be payed.
I dislike tortured animals in concentration style conditions as well.I'm starting to believe that you dislike the fact I dislike battery farming.Where our opinions differ is on the morality of taking animal life for consumption.
eels05, - RE: "Yes animals do enjoy similar conditions"
"Enjoy"? You think chickens "enjoy" being so pumped full of steroids and bred for poultry production that they can't stand up? Do you think pigs "enjoy" breathing their own ammonia day in and day out until nearly every one of them has pneumonia as it's sent to slaughter?
How about if you were to desist with the absurd and ridiculous and try to present a point with enough merit and validity to actually warrant discussion?
eels05, - RE: "how many times do I need to state I'm against Battery Farms?"
It really doesn't mean much for you to make such a comment while suggesting that there are "kind" forms of slaughter. It's a bit like hearing Adolph Hilter say he's an activist against racial statements toward Jews.
eels05, - RE: "Where our opinions differ is on the morality of taking animal life for consumption."
No, we're quite in agreement here. The only area of disparity is that you draw an imaginary line between the human animal and all non-human animals. There is no rational, demonstrable or objective criteria for such a distinction, yet you attempt to make one, just as slave owners used to insist that their slaves weren't worth of humanity. They were wrong. You could learn from that.
eels05, - RE: "In other words we dissagree on the morality of taking animal life for consuption,as stated."
You're either condoning cannibalism or are completely unaware the homosapien doesn't belong to the plant kingdom, isn't a fungi, nor a protist -- Homosapien is an animal. Is it okay to hide in the brush in Central Park at midnight to jump out, slash the throat of a passing citizen and assure they die quickly as long as you intend to eat them?
But your the one continually elevating animals to equal human statis by these hypothetical situations you like to come up with.
Heres one for you.Someone gives you a gun and tells you to shoot a cow in the head or your family will be slaughtered.Following your assertions that theres no circumstance allowable for killing animals,what do you do.
I would kill the animal,but then again I'm an evil meat eater.Hell I'd kill another human if it meant my families safety.
eels05, - RE: "your the one continually elevating animals to equal human statis by these hypothetical situations you like to come up with."
That's purely untrue. I'm simply pointing out that there is no credible or objective criteria by which to suggest that humans have a greater right to life than non-human animals. They display very similar physiology, reactions to being threatened and to painful stimuli. If you wish to draw a line between human-animals and non-human animals, do so credibly
eels05, - RE: "Someone gives you a gun and tells you to shoot a cow in the head or your family will be slaughtered."
Someone gives you a gun and tells you to shoot your family or he'll wipe out an entire city. What do you do?
No one is being held at gunpoint and their families are only being threatened by their diet choices which also threaten and undermine the lives of other sentient creatures. It's a lose-lose. I'm suggesting a win-win and you object.
"Humans also die in nature or are eaten by tigers or other animals. You'd no doubt agree this does not give compassionate, thinking humans the right to eat other humans. Why should it somehow give us the right to eat animals?"
If someone kills a human being it in no way becomes acceptable if their intent was to consume the person.
Just because you see violence elsewhere in nature doesn't mean you have to imitate it.
You should feel quite special as it seems that Plutarch - a man who lived tens of centuries before you - recorded a statement to address your frame of mind.
"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy." - Plutarch
If you have no moral or ethical boundaries, how can you really call yourself "human"? Perhaps some men are just "dumb animals"?
What about the terminal health disadvantages for the poor creatures that you are sentencing to death for a no more important reason than you want a hamburger? If someone were to treat me nicely, while all along their intent was to kill me and eat me, how would that somehow make it any better? Actually, it would make it far more sinister, that they maintained a front of kindness, concealing their real determination to do me harm for their petty, selfish and wholly unnecessary appetite for flesh.
Animals raised for slaughter in non battery type farm conditions have a far less stressful existance than wild animals.Free veterinary care,food,shelter,everything that wild animals dont get.Not to mention a quick painless death,in comparison to being eaten alive by predators or dying a lingering death from disease or old age.
You are unsuccessfully attempting to deny the real emotions that animals possess, because the existence of their fear, pain & immense suffering is inconvenient to your cruel & barbarous dietary choices. Your assertion that animals destined for slaughter are better off than wild animals is absurd to point of ridiculousness. A person's true character is revealed in how one treats the helpless, when there are no consequences for one's actions. Your character is looking awfully absent of compassion.
Believe it or not there are such thing as organic farms where livestock are left to graze in open fields and are painlessly put to death.There a whole science behind the painless death of animals destined for slaughter which you seem to be ignoring in order to hype up the drama of your moral outrage.
If your intent is to deprive innocent animals of their lives, I cannot be impressed by your "science of painless death". Sounds more like science of painless conscience. We're not talking about mercifully pulling the plug on a suffering terminal patient. There are no animals "destined for slaughter" that human beings have not quite willfully chosen to kill. And, there's no noble way of putting breathing creatures to death simply because you've decided you just can't live without a cheeseburger.
So which would send your mighty moral compass into spasms more?:letting loose millions of domesticated animals into nature reserves to die from injury,starvation,sickness and being mauled,crushed or swallowed whole by predators....or animals raised on non battery farms where vetinary care,shelter,protection,and a quick death have always been part of the deal.
Choose to ingnore the facts if you will,but these animals wholly depend on us,and thrive accordingly.
That hamburger jab was funny.Coming from a person who resides in the country where mass production of shit filled food was taken to eclectic heights in the first place.Where flabby fat arsed humans developed a taste for saturated fat filled,over processed crap served with even more fat filled,over processed crap.
Americans don't respect food,they just shove it in their mouths as far down as it will go.Go talk to a Frenchman about respecting meat as cherished product as a start.
I went veggie 29 years ago, as soon as got my wits about me. It's not my fault logic, reason & compassion lead to this conclusion, they just do. I just realized it at a young enough age, & maybe I wasn't already too conditioned by habit & set in my ways to change. Americans eat crap. No argument. But, I think it would be hard to argue against the fact I have far more respect for meat, because I understand it as part of some poor creature's cherished body & not a product. Also, I am a Frenchman.
Obviously letting loose (more like 60 billion) enslaved animals into the wild is no solution. I guess you carcass munchers would get one last thrill kill. These poor creatures have been bred into hellish conditions by humans and now there's no perfect way to achieve balance. (BTW/ what predators are you talking about? We've killed them as well.) Of course, the Buffalo did pretty well until we got here. My moral compass only tells me one thing: Try to maintain a couple ounces of human decency.
eels05 - RE: "where livestock are left to graze in open fields and are painlessly put to death"
There are ways to painlessly put humans to death as well. So should it still be considered murder? And if murder is wrong, perhaps you're not blind to the fact that it's the loss of life which is the true harm. So unless you'll volunteer to be painlessly put to death, you already understand the concept your attempting to deny. Killing, in and of itself, is the real issue. Suffering is secondary.
Again with the moral high ground.Clap...clap..clap
How about some vegetarian..no ANY vegetarian actually give some though to how a post meat eating world would make such a massive transition without economies going tits up,whole tracts of farm land turning to ruin causing more complications,not to mention the pesky moral dilema of what to do with millions of hungry domesticated animals now with no carers or purpose?Anyone?
The answer is: transition gradually. Grow crops for human consumption. Economy tits up? Too late. Transition to a green economy. Meat production is one of the hugest culprits in global warning. Going veggie is equivalent to switching from a Hummer to a Prius, in terms of carbon footprint. The moral dilemma is one meat eaters own. It's your responsibility because you created it. But then again, you don't seem to do very well with moral dilemmas. Maybe you'd like the career of a piece of meat?
Basically your argument is: "We've been breeding and killing, breeding and killing, breeding and killing and we just can't stop! " That's one hell of a moral dilemma you've got of your hands. I wonder what the solution could be? Good luck figuring it out.
The solution is ban battery farming,which as I've pointed out numerous time,I don't agree with or support.Increase the price of free-range,organic meat products which will effectivly price the poor out of buying cheap meat.Dont make it available and they cant unwittingly support battery farms by lining up at McDonalds,thereby forcing the majority to adopt whats always been considered a healthy diet,lots of fruit/veg,and a small amout of meat.
WE dont live in a bubble.Every action we take will always impact on this world.
There is a kind way to butcher,and their is a kind way to raise animals for butchering.
Its called organic farming.
If your main objection is to taking a life in its prime then I call mass murder every time a row of carrots is uprooted for consuption.Why not leave them to die a natural death in the ground?
"There is a kind way to butcher"??? You'd scare George Orwell half to death. What if someone told you they were going to bludgeon you over the head with a big stone. They'd say, "Don't worry, I'm doing it kindly. It's organic." They're planning to use a nice natual rock. You wouldn't feel a thing. What's the problem? Nothing personal, they're actually being very kind to you when you think about it. They're just really hungry and you'd taste so darn good. Good idea?
To resort to your ridiculous carrot argument betrays extreme desperation. You go try hooking a cow through it's ankles, hoist it upside down, slit it's throat so it starts to bleed to death, then decapitate it so quickly that it's eyes are still twitching & looking back at you as you cut out it's tongue. Next, go pull a carrot out of the ground & tell me which act is more violent. Animals have central nervous systems like humans. Why not leave them to live natural lives outside of your stomach?
What the hell kind of slaughter techniques are you trying to prsent as standard here?
Why do I need to repeat myself.I dont condone battery farming or their mass slaughter techniques.
Organically raised animals are taken with a quick bolt to the brain,BANG,thats it,all over.
Also the constant calling for me to voluteer myself or my family for slaughter to 'see how it feels',is really wearing thin now,still without managing to stike me with the conscious I apparently lack.
Oh I see, they're "Taken". Isn't that sweet? You make it sound like you're lifting them on a chariot up to heaven, surrounded by a choir of angels. A soft tap on the head & they're magically transformed into happy burgers & you get the added benefit of the illusion of an assuaged conscience. You can't even spell the word, much less drum one up. I guess you don't really need a conscience when you're in the fortunate position of being merely struck by arguments & not by a quick bolt to the head.
If whiney and emotional responses dont have the desired effect of shocking or somehow distressing me into some shame ridden apologetic position,why do you continue with this tactic?
Its like being slapped by a limp wristed teary eyed schoolgirl,or whacked with limp lettuce.
It's generally not considered a good quality to be completely desensitized to the pain you inflict on others. Nor are shameless acts of violence a virtue. Shame is useful if it prevents one from continuing horrendous cruelty. And whining? I guess if you're not willing to hear the whining cries of your victims, you certainly don't want your fellow humans confronting you about it directly. Again, you opt for the limp lettuce while it's the victims of your appetite who get whacked.
As much as you'd like to believe otherwise,you don't have a monopoly on virtue,morals and setting the standard for each.
As soon as I start to hear some serious discussion about exactly how to go about scaling back battery farming and how a post meat eating world would function,without any whiney,negative,pious pontificating about the evils of meat eating thrown in like a broken record,I'll start taking you seriously.
I'm simply pointing to an inconsistency in your reasoning. You have offered no criteria as reasons why animals should be subjected to violence, while human beings (the group you happen to belong to) should be exempted from it. Are animals too dumb? Too uncommunicative? Too furry? Or just too different from us to qualify for the protection from violence you preserve for humans alone? Historically, many similar benchmarks of worthiness have been applied within human society with horrific results.
And I'm mearly pointing out that hardline vegetarians always resort to the same ineffectual guilt tactics instead of talking about all those boring topics I've already pointed out are lacking in the discission.
Banner waving,throwing buckets of blood around for dramatic effect,taking a dramatic heroic stance against the evil system blah blah blah.The real work of effecting change would be less thrilling and more like real work.
'm sorry if our discussion seems dramatic to you, but humans killing animals for food seems extremely dramatic to me. Interesting that you accuse us of figuratively throwing buckets of blood around, while you're actually engaged in spilling buckets of blood.
How would a post meat eating world function? Very well in fact. People would be healthier & much happier knowing they weren't destroying the environment & contributing to world hunger. We'd be preserving our water supply.
We'd be drastically reducing our carbon footprint. We'd be preventing tremendous amounts of waste nitrates & phosphates from finding their way into our bays & creating enormous dead zones. We'd be saving our topsoil & our rain forests, including thousands of species that live in them. How do we go about scaling back slaughter houses? Simple. Stop eating meat. Be the change you want to see in the world.
You jump straight from A to Z,with no discussion of all the boring details of how to reach Z.
Maybe I'm not the right person to discuss it with,but I can certainly point out to hardline vegetarians that its an obvious omission from their arguements.The endless moralizing is best left at the pulpit.If you really want to change the world then roll your sleezes up and dig in.
Stop making excuses for why it can't be done & start becoming part of the solution. Don't buy meat & they'll sell something else. It's just that simple. After all, anyone who would butcher animals for profit would peddle anything. Do you weep for out of work whalers? Has our economy collapsed without them? Should we never try to phase out fossil fuels? What I'd like to hear is discussion on how we can't afford to not phase meat out considering the havoc it's production wreaks on our environment.
These are the arguements that are missing from most debates on meat eating.You put people off with endless moralizing.Ever seen a realistic step by step plan to scale back battery farming and increase vegetable production?No?Well why not then?
What the hell are you hardcore vegetarians waiting for?A written invitation?
Put that on the table besides or instead of the lofty moral disdain.
Ban fast food from advertising on TV the same way cigarette commercials were banned in '71. In my life time the numbers of smokers in the US have fallen from 50% to 20% of the population due mainly to Public Service Announcements. Has this loss of revenue for tobacco producers crippled the economy? Create PSAs promoting the health advantages of a meatless diet & we're on our way. Colonel Sanders can commiserate with the out of work whalers. And I'll give you a box of tissues for cattle ranchers.
eels05, - RE: "...instead of talking about all those boring topics I've already pointed out are lacking in the discission."
From what angle would you like to approach? It's unhealthy for humans to consume meat. Vegans and vegetarians are physically stronger and recover from exertion more quickly. It certainly not beneficial to the animals or the environment. It's grossly wasteful. Meat-consumption is the leading cause of death among humans & animals, & the reason for rain-forest depletion.
I'd like to see discussions on how not to bankrupt whole continents of farmers,how to ensure continued food supply while in a transitional stage,planning for disruption to farming crops due to environmental factors just for a start.
These topics don't even scratch the surface of the sheer amount of work that would need to be done even before any hard pysical changes were put into place.
Think for a moment; what happened to stage coach and buggy manufactures when the car took over for horse-drawn transportation? What happened to telegraph companies when the telephone took over?
You seem to envision an over-night change. Do you think that's realistic? Or is it fairly obvious that any such change must take place slowly? Did smokers all quit the day after cigarettes were conclusively implicated in lung cancer and other health hazards?
And it sounds like your underestimating what a mammoth task it will be.
But you'll have to forgive me when I point out all the nitty gritty discussion about How to achieve this vegetarian utopia is usually lacking from any debate.
eels05, - RE: "it sounds like your underestimating what a mammoth task it will be"
Best that we just allow the cruelty, suffering and needless death continue then... for convenience sake?
I'm sure that prior to the emancipation of the slaves, many suggested the same thing. For some reason though, many still thought it was a worth-while cause - enough to fight a war over it. I tend to agree with them.
eels05, - RE: "Organically raised animals are taken with a quick bolt to the brain,BANG,thats it,all over."
Let's start with this; take your family in and have them killed by the captive-bolt method, (which is what you're talking about), then tell me of the kindness shown your family.
Secondly, the captive-bolt method hasn't been used for years because it rips away neural tissue which can spread through the circulatory system, potentially contaminating the tissues with the prions of BSE.
A meat eater's diet uses up 3 times the fossil fuel as that of a veggie. Going veggie is equivalent to trading in your Hummer for a Prius in terms of carbon footprint. We lose 55 sq ft of rain forest for every 1/4 lb of beef produced there. We import 300mil lbs of beef from Central & S. Am. yearly. Beef production is ridiculously inefficient in terms of land & water use when compared with directly growing crops for human consumption. Sorry to burst your bubble but were not alone on this planet.
eels05, - RE: "There is a kind way to butcher,and their is a kind way to raise animals for butchering."
Might you be willing to submit to 6 to 12 months of being raised for slaughter, at the end of which you will be butchered in a kind fashion. so that you might demonstrate your assertion to have merit?
Butchering is the taking of sentient life and that is always wrong, no matter what the method used. Submit your mother, your wife and children to being butchered, then tell us of the kindness
eels05, - RE: "then I call mass murder every time a row of carrots is uprooted for consuption"
I find it amazing the number of people who are willing to trade their intellect for such a sad and pathetic attempt at an argument. When you're willing to suggest that you can't tell the difference between a plant with no neural system and an animal which shows every desire to fight for it's life, the only thing demonstrated is such severe desperation for an argument, that you'll present the absurd.
Animals slaughtered the fashion I've already stated don't fight for their life because they percieve no danger.
I'm basically not desperate for an arguement because I see no moral objection to eating meat.The only moral objection I have is to animals that suffer throughout their lifespan.
And though I've found your scientific refutations interesting,I still wonder how many of the studys you refer to take into consideration other factors contributing to obesity and heart desiese.
eels05, - RE: "I'm basically not desperate for an arguement because I see no moral objection to eating meat."
Is it just me? From where I stand that IS a large part of the argument. Just because you want to pretend that only the lives of people matter doesn't mean the rest of us need to share in a delusion which is devoid of any supporting evidence and only seems to serve as a psychological buffer so you can do what you wish, and not worry about the horrendous acts carried out for your sake.
I could say the same of your insistance that its completely morally wrong to take an animals life for food.Theres no right or wrong here and we could but heads over the morality on this topic forever.
You cant just insist that I suddenly find meat eating morally wrong,I just dont.
Animals die in nature.Animals eat other animals.We are a part of the food chain like it or not.
My only concern with this topic is the safe erradication of battery farming.
So it's your stance that it's not morally wrong to needlessly take the live of a sentient feeling being? That suggests that you don't support laws against murder... except that you make an exception for humans, simply because you are human. How convenient to be able to engage in special-pleading, simply for one's own sake.
I dont want to have to point out the obvious but humans murder each other all the time.Pick up a newspaper,it'll be full of humans treating each other like...animals.Under those conditions maybe its time to be realistic about hardline vegetarians will be able to acheive.
I'm all for humans not murdering each other but,as the daily news contantly reminds me,were way off from achieving some kind of peaceful utopia.Quit living in your ideal senario,and work with whats here and do-able.
eels05, - RE: "I dont want to have to point out the obvious but humans murder each other all the time."
That makes such action neither appropriate, proper nor defensible. The same goes for slaughtering non-human species. You suggest it's as good as it can be and that we just accept it. Some suggest it can be better.
"For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love." -- Pythagoras
eels05, - RE: "Quit living in your ideal senario,and work with whats here and do-able."
Perhaps if you were more inclined to accept the realities, what's "do-able" would be far better than what we have.
"Arson and CRUELTY TO ANIMALS are 2 of 3 childhood warning signs regarding the potential to be a serial killer. (To no longer objectify living beings by ceasing hunting and fishing takes one 1 step further away from the murder of humans.)" -John Douglas, profiler of serial killers for the FBI
eels05, - RE: "So your saying all meat eaters are serial killers?"
Where did you read that? What would make you jump to such a ridiculous conclusion, unless you recognized that only by turning to the ridiculous, could you even attempt to rebuff the observations presented? When you have to suggest such obvious absurdities, it's an indication that you already know your argument has failed. But rather than accept the reality, you fabricate the ridiculous and carry on.
You were the one who presented the study into childhood pyromania and cruelty to animals as 2 out of 3 warning signs of a serial killer for..........what reason exactly??
Was there actually a point in that,that was meant to be infered about meat eaters in general,but not really?
Why the hell do you bring these arguements to the table then get defensive when I present either the flip side or debate the intention of your own comments?
eels05, - RE: "...2 out of 3 warning signs of a serial killer for..........what reason exactly??"
While it's perfectly obvious: to demonstrate the link between cruel treatment and killing of animals and the cruel treatment and killing of the animals known as "homosapien", by homosapien. If you can kill one feeling, sentient being, killing another feeling sentient being isn't much of a stretch. It's a far cry from plucking an ear of corn.
And by presenting it in the context of the vegetarian debate I'm not meant to infer or apply it to all meat eaters?
Come on think about what your saying.
You've just stated there is a link between serial killing and meat eating.I presented some vegetarian mass murderers in rebutle.
Not that I'm taking the high road here,but I won't go as far to suggest all vegos are mass murderers,but without suggesting it openly.That would be ridiculous.
eels05, - RE: "I'm not meant to infer or apply it to all meat eaters?"
It's a concept. It applies equally to everyone. Da Vinci was a brilliant man and a boon to mankind. His ideas are worth a bit of reverence. Hitler was a murderous maniac. There's nothing violent, murderous or malevolent about abstaining from the cruelty, suffering and death of meat consumption.
Many serial killers are ex-military. Not all ex-military are serial killers. Do you hold no understanding of odds & ratios?
eels05, - RE: "Again this all stems of from your comments about childhood signs of serial killers."
It's not at all the same thing and the worst part is that you're perfectly aware that it's not. But for days now, everytime you start to realize that your arguments keep failing, you run to the absurd.
Statistics do show a correlation between cruelty to animals and serial killers. That's a fact you have to live with. It doesn't mean that any singular pair of traits represents a statistic.
eels05, - RE: "Hello....WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY HERE?"
I'm simply saying that a higher than normal correlation between those who commit cruelty to animals and serial killers doesn't mean that everyone who is cruel to animals will be a serial killer. But it does mean that the chances are much higher, and that there is a correlation between the two behaviors, whether you wish to see that or not. The experts see it. You can remain as blind as you choose.
eels05, - RE: "You introduce this 'statistic' as an arguement,but not really,then call it absurd when I point out theres been vegetarian mass killers."
Would you really rather have everyone think you're too ignorant to understand the significance of a statistic than to admit there is a flaw in your ideals?
One vegetarian who is a mass killer isn't a statistic. You'd have to show that vegetarians are MORE likely to be mass killers than non-vegetarians. The opposite appears to be true.
eels05 - RE: "Make up your mind.Its either damning evidence against meat eating or its not."
It is. It's also damning evidence against the "morality" you promote and claim to hold. Those who can commit atrocities toward animals are more likely to commit atrocities toward other people. Noting one or two vegetarian killers doesn't change the significance of statistics which show that those who are cruel to animals are MORE LIKELY to be cruel to people, than those who are not cruel to animals.
Whats really absurd here is despite the fact that I agree with almost all of your arguements about the health benefits of vegetables and the horrors of battery farming,you continually need to push for some kind of vain total mastery of this debate,which sadly you'll never achieve,due to the sole fact that you cant force your moral outlook on someone over the internet.
eels05, - RE: "you cant force your moral outlook on someone over the internet."
Of course not. It would be as futile as attempting to demonstrate the true shape of the Earth to a flat-Earther or to explain evolution to a creationist. You just look away, stubbornly ignore the demonstrations which uncover the failures of your proposed standards, and ignore anything inconsistent with the beliefs you've chosen. It's easy to stubbornly hold onto failed ideas. Accepting unwanted truths is hard.
eels05, Let's take you for instance. You eat meat and you seem to enjoy putting forth absolutely ridiculous arguments when cornered. Does that mean that every meat-eater puts forth ridiculous arguments? Some debate quite courteously and intelligently.
You're trying to develop meaningful statistics out of a body of data equaling one.
eels05, - RE: "...were way off from achieving some kind of peaceful utopia."
Perhaps if people like you were less selfish and stubborn and a bit more willing to see the problems, we'd be able to achieve a better standard.
"I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men." - Leonardo da Vinci
Maybe... just maybe, these people are more intelligent than you.
This guy agrees with Leonardo,"One may regret living at a period when its impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume.But theres one thing I can predict to eaters of meat:the world of the future will be vegetarian."-Adolf Hitler.
eels05, - RE: "This guy agrees with Leonardo... -Adolf Hitler."
Let's just follow along with that line of "logic" and see where it takes us, shall we? In the world today there are some 2.3 billion Christians. They believe that Jesus Christ was God or God's representative, sent to Earth to be sacrificed for the sins of man. The Jews charged Jesus with a crime and turned him over to the Romans for crucifixion. Hitler was a Christian and hated the Jews. Does that make all Christians Jew-haters?
eels05, - RE: "Oh I'm sorry I thought we were supplying quotes from famous people like it meant something."
It means something if the subject quoted is someone to hold in great respect. If you think Hitler qualifies, then knock yourself out. Comparing Hitler to da Vinci is just a bit beyond insane.
eels05, - RE: "And yet Hitler was a vegetarian or at least strove to be. One of yours."
There is zero correlation between Hitler's treatment of gastric distress through a vegetarian diet and the heinous acts for which he is known. He was also a Christian, spoke German and had a mustache. You might as well suggest that everyone with a mustache, everyone who speaks German and every Christian (or theist for that matter), are complicit in Hitler's behaviors. You're being ridiculous.
Wow, if the smartest people in the world were "vegetarians" I am going to be one.
33Barker 1 year ago
don't forget Billy Gibbons ZZ TOP
32lucinda 1 year ago
Speaking of vegetarian I found a pretty interesting book on Amazon Kindle that's worth checking out. It called "Why You Must Become A Vegetarian". Definitely worth checking out
superfasttwittercash 1 year ago
@ my school we call it Mystery Burger, whats inside?
Kronikwisdom 1 year ago
The needs of the many - trillions of innocent vegetarian cows chickens pigs and turkeys needlessly bred and murdered for people who refuse to chane their selfish habits - does outweigh the needs of the few, in this case.
Stalin & the Red Army and millions of supporters of the Spanish Inquisition and other catholic murderers and torturers also murdered and tortured animals, both to eat and for fun.
duck24x 1 year ago
what? clam down hoe...
purplelilstar 1 year ago
Where is Hitler, bitch?
pirox1234 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@pirox1234 Yeah ?
For those who say veggies are all nice, non-violent people, and non-veggies are potentiali violent :
Adolf Hitler was a veggie !
Yeah, all veggies are nice, non-violent people... ?
SimonRancourt 1 year ago
@pirox1234 Firstly,Hitler wasn't a vegetarian,secondly,Iwouldn't exactly call him elite.
ElledieWildAndFree 1 year ago
@ElledieWildAndFree I actually do think Hitler claimed to be vegetarian, and an animal-lover. This is most likely not true, and he did this only to gain the people's affection even more, to make him look more like a good guy. So there you go, even Hitler knew vegetarian had the more right, ethical way to live their life :P Even though he didn't follow that himself, but come on.. he's Hitler.. Do you want to be Hitler, meat-eaters? :P Haha, sorry, couldn't help myself..
minuteofdecay00 1 year ago
Half of these men were NOT vegetarians. Some merely wrote a few words about the subject, yet we know nothing about their diets.
There are many more talented artists, scientists, saints or philosophers who loved eating meat, from Abraham and Aristotle to Einstein or Sojhenitsyn. And lots of bastards who were/are vegans, like Hitler or Lee Carroll (founder of the Kryon cult)... So... what? This vid is pure propaganda.
Fridomfry 1 year ago
Im a vegan and my school offers NOTHING vegan! I bring my luch everyday but i dont even like seeing meat. Just seeing it makes me wanna cry becuz i think of the animal that suffered for that hot dog or meatloaf. I am gonna talk to my principle about it i guess. Maybe more salad and greens instead of meat. GO VEGAN!
Bella24745 2 years ago 2
that is the reason i went Veg.... when i still ate meat, i'd not see a tasty meal in front of me... i'd see a victim of murder... and it made me think differently about meat. I was fortunate that my school had a snack area that served different things than what was on the school menu... I'd usually buy a salad, or a bean burrito.
xXShrinkWrapXx 2 years ago
we don't even have that! Our burrito's are filled with meat and our salad's even have chicken in them.
Bella24745 2 years ago
oh no :( thats no bueno....Yea our salads had chunks of ham in them, kind of like a Cobb salad. I would pick the meat out first before i ate the salad. You should find out if there are other vegetarians at the school, then from there have them sign a petition.... after that take it up with the PTA. They should have accommodations for everyone. They provide meat for meat eaters, why not veggie options for us? Good luck with that hon!
xXShrinkWrapXx 2 years ago
@Bella24745 Maybe the school thinks more about the rest of the students, instead of the whiny little brat princess..
ColaCocaFan 2 years ago
@ColaCocaFan Maybe you should think about other people besides your effin self!
Bella24745 2 years ago
@Bella24745 The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.. sorry disney princess
ColaCocaFan 2 years ago
Just becuz i ask for a salad without it loaded with chicken That makes me a brat? I think not. You just dont know what its like to care about animals enough to not want to eat them. So this conversation is over.
Bella24745 2 years ago 8
most veggies become less aggressive and violent towards other people . peta has angenda. they support animals rights over creature rights ,they animals above people i love them all just the same. people and animals offer different things to the planet but they both are beautiful.
butch1026 2 years ago 2
Wrong, we humans are vermin, and the worst thing that has happen to this planet in modern history.
truth2748 2 years ago
@truth2748 i do not know what kinda shit u on but my have a nice one in your misery, if u talking about just american bible thumpers. then point well taken
butch1026 2 years ago
lies2748 youre a vermin its true. dont project that to the rest of us.
bigusdikus0 2 years ago
Just absurd to claim that "Plato was vegetarian". Absolutely no source can support that claim. His book "The Banquet" is NOT a list of veggie recipes...!
Fridomfry 2 years ago
Good message, bad quality though.
sareusepeus 2 years ago
As long as you vegans condemn me to a horrible death, I don't see a reason to change. Peer pressure has always pissed me off. I refuse to cave because of a few death threats.
MysteryAC 2 years ago
your just putting youself in pain plus all the life that you have consumed is not happy inside your body. thankfully there is forgiveness
estoboy29 2 years ago
your so threatening yourself by not getting full connection with the source but pain and misery.love you and does poor animals that may be cursing within you i hope they forgive you.
estoboy29 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
You vegetarians only care about causing others misery if they don't agree with you.
You're such a hypocrite. How I wish you practiced what you preach, you jerk.
MysteryAC 2 years ago
what give you impression i don't care about you? i care a lot that's why i am here i want you to be able to evolve as a good person not a monster dont forgive me for this is true.love you as much as all those lives within you that have been lost but you still have a chance.
estoboy29 2 years ago
I can hear you lying. You just want me dead, like half the vegans of the world. Have you ever seen the murderous threads rampant throughout PETA's threads? total hypocrites there and I see nothing different here.
How about you weed out the horrible vegans, then I'll consider changing. For now, your words mean nothing to me.
MysteryAC 2 years ago
dont call me a lier man im not and i have no reason to maybe i do plur out everything i think without first checking it over but what i do think i to mean so my bad for the sounding but you are the reader of it and dont you feel unity ?
that is very disgusting that there are vegans that would feel so =/
really i think this world can be saved by hemp and water gun war of love
estoboy29 2 years ago
No vegan/vegetarian in there right mind would support PETA...they are a big load of corporate shit, and have their own agenda they don't speak for us all.
you are crazy who wants you dead, don't flatter yourself...
royalblowno 2 years ago 2
i can agree and disagree with that statement. PETA is very very biased... but they do promote veganism and vegetarianism. The celebrities that are associated with PETA also donate a lot of money to good causes like ABC(animal birth control) and also to going green and all that stuff.... But i do agree PETA is full of propaganda as well
xXShrinkWrapXx 2 years ago
Is there anything without propaganda today?
FrisAndMelon 2 years ago
Sigh problem is vegetarians care too much...most are put in the spotlight becuse we are the minority can't tell you how many times i've been asked "where do you get your protein" or been called a putang/bia....really idk why we bother the smart ones will find the truth.
royalblowno 2 years ago 2
Nice vid, but I still think I'll remain on my omnivore diet. Say horrible things if you want, but I just can't do a vegan life. If only you all respected that.
MysteryAC 2 years ago
I always love how meat eaters are the first ones to start a fight with a vegetarian.
I also love how this moron is trying to link vegetarians to mass murder because of Hitler.
Sad. If you feel the need to defend your diet so vehemently, you must obviously feel deep down that there IS something wrong with it. Otherwise you would let others live their own lives according to how they see fit.
rhiannonator 2 years ago 5
@rhiannonator "If you feel the need to defend your diet so vehemently, you must obviously feel deep down that there IS something wrong with it. Otherwise you would let others live their own lives according to how they see fit." - yeah, that's why there are so many pro meat interest groups and domestic terrorist organizations bent on force feeding their dietary views on everybody else....oh...wait a minute; I guess the PETA, ELF, ALF triad really is one side of a coin with out its opposite.
RebelWrestler45 1 year ago
@RebelWrestler45
I believe the "pro-meat" lobby you speak of does exist: it's called industrial farming. I must say a MUCH larger lobby in Washington than PETA. Right, "Rebel"?
Also, I don't belong to PETA, ELF, or any of that nonsense. In fact, I'm a professional chef that cooks meat daily. However, in MY personal life, I'm not interested in it. So you see, you "maverick-rebel" you, vegetarian does not always equal asshole hippie. It's for health reasons, dip-shit.
rhiannonator 1 year ago
@rhiannonator First of all, the industrial farming lobby includes producers that supply fruits and vegetables exclusively; industrial farming is by no means anti-vegetarian or vegan. There will always be a market for meat; the meat industry doesn't waste its time trying to convert vegetarians; their lobby base in Washington is purely an economic one.
RebelWrestler45 1 year ago
@rhiannonator In addition, I never even suggested anywhere that vegetarians= asshole hippie. I was merely pointing out that contingents within the vegetarian movement do not "let others live their own lives according to how they see fit'. They use coercion, harassment, vandalism, and even terrorism to push their agenda. Like I said before, no equivalent elements can be found amongst those who promote an omnivorian diet. Oh, and the 'rebel' in my screen name refers to my Southern heritage, fyi.
RebelWrestler45 1 year ago
Meat eaters are so clueless I love it! LOL Enjoy your heart disease smart ones ;)
VeganBoy21 2 years ago 3
agreed, schools are not vegetarian friendly, even the salads have meat in them. being a vegan is a great thing.
MIKAFAN41 2 years ago
We usually call "elite" all decision makers at a high level, whether we like them or not. Hitler was one, so was Stalin or Mao. Thus Hitler fits evidently among the "Elite vegetarians of the world".
Besides, Einstein was not a vegetarian, although he supported the idea in his old age. Nor were Newton or Plato. Why faking history to push your agenda?
Fridomfry 2 years ago
Hitler is not vegetarian. His favorite food is veal sausage... See wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism
wayann2 2 years ago
your just pushing yourself deeper into death a guilt because your killing your cousin.
estoboy29 2 years ago
Your sentence has no more coherence than the thought it attempts to express. An animal is not my cousin. Normal people don't feel guilty when they eat meat - not more than animals themselves : On the contrary, it's a pure pleasure - unless one is impregnated with some weird old puritan poison. Yes, I believe that this typical British-American vegetarianism is a secular version of good old puritanism.
Fridomfry 2 years ago
i care to connect with every living being without eating them, because when you eat something that doesnt wanna be eaten your just conflicting pain inside you and your concussion and will never be able to evolve,all the carnivores eat meat because they have to to survive and cannot help it , if i could i would give fruit they'd love so they too can feel the connection with direct source.
estoboy29 2 years ago
Lost cause...move on
royalblowno 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
vegetarians are wrong.
owl316 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I really think vegetarianism is the way to go against animal cruelty. What I found interesting was Tsem Tulku Rinpoche, in his video, The Joy of Liberating Animals on Youtube, advised his students to turn vegetarian to create the causes to build an animal sanctuary or shelter. This is to show their commitment to care for animals instead of just saying they care. We dont really care for animals if we keep eating them every meal!
ChiKiCheong 2 years ago
i know yummy ha
bigdpimp1 2 years ago
They forgot the most famous one: Adolf Hitler.
I wonder why?
JohnnyCash08 2 years ago 2
I wouldn't exactly call Hitler elite
ElledieWildAndFree 2 years ago
He ate sausages. Maybe THAT'S why.
marcluc1988 2 years ago
they were veg sausages stupid ass
bigdpimp1 2 years ago
No. They weren't and thanks for your comment.
marcluc1988 2 years ago
ummm yes they wer look it up
bigdpimp1 2 years ago
Also, I can think of many more tyrants that ate meat. Don't be such a judgemental so-n-so.
marcluc1988 2 years ago
Also, isn't the title of this video "Elite vegetarians of the world." Do you consider Adolf Hitler elite?
marcluc1988 2 years ago
i have 3 years since i became vegetarian, and i can tell you folks, Is so So so diferent when i wake up, during the day. the benefits are incredible. try it.
johngarabatos 2 years ago
And thanks for the list...
It's always nice to know you're in good company.
Certainly Meat eating will be illegal in the future....It's not economical anyway.
fjt108 2 years ago
from what i see the vegetarians are the free-thinkers of this world and are the ones that make a difference to better the human race and the earth
sulabhduggal 2 years ago 3
i'm not proud to be an american (because we are stupid), but i am proud to be a Vegetarian!
I really dont understand why people support mass murder of creatures equal to them.
RisaLovelyComplex 2 years ago 3
eels05,
The problem is very simple.
If you teach a child that it's okay to set ablaze the home of people who don't live on their block, they'll be more likely to commit arson on their block as well. So teach them arson is always wrong.
The same applies to being cruel and uncaring about sentient beings. If you teach people that it's okay to be cruel to any sentient creature, they're more likely to apply that same standard to humans. If you teach that cruelty is okay, expect people to be cruel.
Beastt17 2 years ago
If a study into serial killers seems applicable to meat eaters in general and makes you happy then you go for it mate.
Its comes across like your reaching when you dont really need to.Leave the study of serial killers to the FBI and just concentrate on dismantleing battery farming.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "If a study into serial killers seems applicable to meat eaters in general and makes you happy then you go for it mate"
- Killing healthy animals is cruel.
- People who are cruel to animals are more likely to become serial killers than people who aren't.
What part don't you get? Practicing cruelty to a sentient feeling being is practicing cruelty to a sentient feeling being, regardless of species.
Your argument continues to fail but you don't fail to continue arguing.
Beastt17 2 years ago
My arguement?
This is your arguement.I've been trying to identify and do away with it.
Unfortunatley if your study into serial killers is applicable as evidence,so to is the fact that those thousands of people you pass in the street every day who aren't serial killers,many who probably happen to be meat eaters,normal everyday types,are also valid evidence for the fact that meat eating dosen't make unhinged killers,as the majority of tax paying,law abiding citizens attests to.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "This is your arguement.I've been trying to identify and do away with it."
Yes you have; by "arguing" against it. It never ceases to amaze me that so many people think only one side is "arguing" an issue. - RE: "if your study into serial killers is applicable as evidence,so to is the fact that those thousands of people you pass in the street every day who aren't serial killers"
Exactly!
It's a matter of ratios. And your ideas produce a higher ratio of serial killers.
Beastt17 2 years ago
If someone is torturing animals as a child its probably a symptom of childhood abuse,emotional isolation,parental rejection,or loss of a parent.Your taking a symptom of a real problem and turning it into the main focus.
Guess we should all be thankful you work a phone and never got into psychiatric councelling.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "Your taking a symptom of a real problem and turning it into the main focus."
And you're suggesting that highly trained professionals in the FBI, failed to take that into account. - RE: "Guess we should all be thankful you work a phone and never got into psychiatric councelling."
Nice try at ad hominem. It's also a severe oversight on your part. What do you suppose I do when suicidal people call me? I get around 4 to 6 a year and in 26+ years, haven't lost one yet.
Beastt17 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "Leave the study of serial killers to the FBI"
I did leave it up to them. And they found the results I presented - people who practice cruelty to animals are more likely to become serial killers than those who don't.
I can see that you loathe that reality, but it's a reality, none-the-less.
So the solution is to choose not to be cruel to any sentient creatures and to teach children that all cruelty is wrong.
Your problem is that you know this takes the stake off your plate.
Beastt17 2 years ago
Actually I'll just make this general statement to both Beastt17 and kesisu,seeing as your both fond of insisting I put myself in the animals shoes and volunteer myself for slaughter.
How about you both go stand out in a field,and eat only grass,with no medical treatment,no protection or shelter.When you die from starvation or sickness I promise we'll let your body rot where it stands,or get picked clean by scavengers.We wont even feed your carcass to our pets..So how about it then?
eels05 2 years ago
eels05,
Do you see the extent to which you have to suggest the ridiculous (that a monogastric herbivore attempt to consume the diet of a multigastric herbivore), just to try to avoid the point we've made?
Certainly, even someone who has attempted to hide the fact that other animals feel just as humans do, can understand that an animal living a natural life is not the same as one being slaughtered. So suppose you actually allow your natural human compassion to speak to you.
Beastt17 2 years ago
I'll take that as a no then.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "I'll take that as a no then."
I'll take that as a complete evasion of everything stated so far. Otherwise you have to admit that all of your points fail. You want to eat meat and to serve that singular selfish lust of the tongue, you'll ignore the suffering, pain and loss of life endured by other sentient creatures, just for your dining pleasure.
Beastt17 2 years ago
No.
I just pointed out you ignored my suggestion you go live the ideal domesticated animal lifestyle till death.Kind of like how you and your friend have constantly suggested I go stand in line in a slaughterhouse.
Kind of ridiculous and annoying eh?
eels05 2 years ago
eels05 - RE: "you ignored my suggestion you go live the ideal domesticated animal lifestyle"
You suggested that I - a human (and MONO-gastric herbivore) - attempt to live the life of a MULTI-gastric herbivore which subsists on a completely different kind of diet. That's purely absurd. One can see that your argument has declined to the ridiculous.
I suggested that since you claim there are kind methods of slaughter, that you subject yourself and your family to said "kindness". Why resist?
Beastt17 2 years ago
WHy dont I line my entire family up in a slaughterhouse designed for bovine etc and expect some guy to slaughter us?
Equally ridiculous arguement.
BUt I think your just being stuborn for the sake of it on this point.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "Equally ridiculous arguement."
It's interesting that you see how ridiculous it is, once you apply it to creatures for which you hold an emotional value. Yet with creatures for which you hold only a lust for taste, you suggest the exact same treatment is "kind".
Granted it most certainly IS a ridiculous argument. But it's YOUR argument. You only seem to recognize the absurdity when we exchange the cows for people. Why is that? Could it be your prejudice, bias and subjectivity?
Beastt17 2 years ago
I don't find your suggestion annoying at all. I grew up in rural Connecticut & I sincerely love wandering in big open fields, feeling the warmth of the sunshine on my face & the cool breeze blowing through my hair. I'm quite positive animals enjoy similar conditions. On the other hand I dislike concentration camp type situations & I'm certain animals take no pleasure in them either. We are suggesting that animals be allowed to live natural lives. You are insisting that they die unnatural deaths.
kesisu 2 years ago
Yes animals do enjoy similar conditions,and its made them some of the most succesfull species of animal to have ever lived.But yes there is a price to be payed.
I dislike tortured animals in concentration style conditions as well.I'm starting to believe that you dislike the fact I dislike battery farming.Where our opinions differ is on the morality of taking animal life for consumption.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "Yes animals do enjoy similar conditions"
"Enjoy"? You think chickens "enjoy" being so pumped full of steroids and bred for poultry production that they can't stand up? Do you think pigs "enjoy" breathing their own ammonia day in and day out until nearly every one of them has pneumonia as it's sent to slaughter?
How about if you were to desist with the absurd and ridiculous and try to present a point with enough merit and validity to actually warrant discussion?
Beastt17 2 years ago
'Enjoy'..?Did you read the comment I was replying to with that comment?
Besides how many times do I need to state I'm against Battery Farms?
Hello..wake up.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "how many times do I need to state I'm against Battery Farms?"
It really doesn't mean much for you to make such a comment while suggesting that there are "kind" forms of slaughter. It's a bit like hearing Adolph Hilter say he's an activist against racial statements toward Jews.
Beastt17 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "Where our opinions differ is on the morality of taking animal life for consumption."
No, we're quite in agreement here. The only area of disparity is that you draw an imaginary line between the human animal and all non-human animals. There is no rational, demonstrable or objective criteria for such a distinction, yet you attempt to make one, just as slave owners used to insist that their slaves weren't worth of humanity. They were wrong. You could learn from that.
Beastt17 2 years ago
In other words we dissagree on the morality of taking animal life for consuption,as stated.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "In other words we dissagree on the morality of taking animal life for consuption,as stated."
You're either condoning cannibalism or are completely unaware the homosapien doesn't belong to the plant kingdom, isn't a fungi, nor a protist -- Homosapien is an animal. Is it okay to hide in the brush in Central Park at midnight to jump out, slash the throat of a passing citizen and assure they die quickly as long as you intend to eat them?
Beastt17 2 years ago
Of course not.
But your the one continually elevating animals to equal human statis by these hypothetical situations you like to come up with.
Heres one for you.Someone gives you a gun and tells you to shoot a cow in the head or your family will be slaughtered.Following your assertions that theres no circumstance allowable for killing animals,what do you do.
I would kill the animal,but then again I'm an evil meat eater.Hell I'd kill another human if it meant my families safety.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "your the one continually elevating animals to equal human statis by these hypothetical situations you like to come up with."
That's purely untrue. I'm simply pointing out that there is no credible or objective criteria by which to suggest that humans have a greater right to life than non-human animals. They display very similar physiology, reactions to being threatened and to painful stimuli. If you wish to draw a line between human-animals and non-human animals, do so credibly
Beastt17 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "Someone gives you a gun and tells you to shoot a cow in the head or your family will be slaughtered."
Someone gives you a gun and tells you to shoot your family or he'll wipe out an entire city. What do you do?
No one is being held at gunpoint and their families are only being threatened by their diet choices which also threaten and undermine the lives of other sentient creatures. It's a lose-lose. I'm suggesting a win-win and you object.
Beastt17 2 years ago
Yeah, our opinions differ. I get that.
You never addressed my question.
"Humans also die in nature or are eaten by tigers or other animals. You'd no doubt agree this does not give compassionate, thinking humans the right to eat other humans. Why should it somehow give us the right to eat animals?"
If someone kills a human being it in no way becomes acceptable if their intent was to consume the person.
Just because you see violence elsewhere in nature doesn't mean you have to imitate it.
kesisu 2 years ago
eels05,
You should feel quite special as it seems that Plutarch - a man who lived tens of centuries before you - recorded a statement to address your frame of mind.
"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy." - Plutarch
If you have no moral or ethical boundaries, how can you really call yourself "human"? Perhaps some men are just "dumb animals"?
Beastt17 2 years ago
The Buffalo did just fine until we got here.
kesisu 2 years ago
Meath=Death , for everyone who eat dead flesh full of suffering..!
merblagi 2 years ago
I'd happily pay twice the amount for fresh meat if I knew it was not from a battery type farm.
You cant paint meat eating bad on Moral grounds overnight and expect the rest of the world to agree.
As far as health benefits I can think of numurous advantages of a healthy BALANCED diet,which includes meat.
eels05 2 years ago
What about the terminal health disadvantages for the poor creatures that you are sentencing to death for a no more important reason than you want a hamburger? If someone were to treat me nicely, while all along their intent was to kill me and eat me, how would that somehow make it any better? Actually, it would make it far more sinister, that they maintained a front of kindness, concealing their real determination to do me harm for their petty, selfish and wholly unnecessary appetite for flesh.
kesisu 2 years ago
Your projecting human emotions onto animals.
Animals raised for slaughter in non battery type farm conditions have a far less stressful existance than wild animals.Free veterinary care,food,shelter,everything that wild animals dont get.Not to mention a quick painless death,in comparison to being eaten alive by predators or dying a lingering death from disease or old age.
eels05 2 years ago
You are unsuccessfully attempting to deny the real emotions that animals possess, because the existence of their fear, pain & immense suffering is inconvenient to your cruel & barbarous dietary choices. Your assertion that animals destined for slaughter are better off than wild animals is absurd to point of ridiculousness. A person's true character is revealed in how one treats the helpless, when there are no consequences for one's actions. Your character is looking awfully absent of compassion.
kesisu 2 years ago
Your taking the moral high ground.Good for you.
Besides your talking about battery farms.
Believe it or not there are such thing as organic farms where livestock are left to graze in open fields and are painlessly put to death.There a whole science behind the painless death of animals destined for slaughter which you seem to be ignoring in order to hype up the drama of your moral outrage.
eels05 2 years ago
If your intent is to deprive innocent animals of their lives, I cannot be impressed by your "science of painless death". Sounds more like science of painless conscience. We're not talking about mercifully pulling the plug on a suffering terminal patient. There are no animals "destined for slaughter" that human beings have not quite willfully chosen to kill. And, there's no noble way of putting breathing creatures to death simply because you've decided you just can't live without a cheeseburger.
kesisu 2 years ago
So which would send your mighty moral compass into spasms more?:letting loose millions of domesticated animals into nature reserves to die from injury,starvation,sickness and being mauled,crushed or swallowed whole by predators....or animals raised on non battery farms where vetinary care,shelter,protection,and a quick death have always been part of the deal.
Choose to ingnore the facts if you will,but these animals wholly depend on us,and thrive accordingly.
eels05 2 years ago
That hamburger jab was funny.Coming from a person who resides in the country where mass production of shit filled food was taken to eclectic heights in the first place.Where flabby fat arsed humans developed a taste for saturated fat filled,over processed crap served with even more fat filled,over processed crap.
Americans don't respect food,they just shove it in their mouths as far down as it will go.Go talk to a Frenchman about respecting meat as cherished product as a start.
eels05 2 years ago
I went veggie 29 years ago, as soon as got my wits about me. It's not my fault logic, reason & compassion lead to this conclusion, they just do. I just realized it at a young enough age, & maybe I wasn't already too conditioned by habit & set in my ways to change. Americans eat crap. No argument. But, I think it would be hard to argue against the fact I have far more respect for meat, because I understand it as part of some poor creature's cherished body & not a product. Also, I am a Frenchman.
kesisu 2 years ago
Obviously letting loose (more like 60 billion) enslaved animals into the wild is no solution. I guess you carcass munchers would get one last thrill kill. These poor creatures have been bred into hellish conditions by humans and now there's no perfect way to achieve balance. (BTW/ what predators are you talking about? We've killed them as well.) Of course, the Buffalo did pretty well until we got here. My moral compass only tells me one thing: Try to maintain a couple ounces of human decency.
kesisu 2 years ago
eels05 - RE: "where livestock are left to graze in open fields and are painlessly put to death"
There are ways to painlessly put humans to death as well. So should it still be considered murder? And if murder is wrong, perhaps you're not blind to the fact that it's the loss of life which is the true harm. So unless you'll volunteer to be painlessly put to death, you already understand the concept your attempting to deny. Killing, in and of itself, is the real issue. Suffering is secondary.
Beastt17 2 years ago
Again with the moral high ground.Clap...clap..clap
How about some vegetarian..no ANY vegetarian actually give some though to how a post meat eating world would make such a massive transition without economies going tits up,whole tracts of farm land turning to ruin causing more complications,not to mention the pesky moral dilema of what to do with millions of hungry domesticated animals now with no carers or purpose?Anyone?
eels05 2 years ago
The answer is: transition gradually. Grow crops for human consumption. Economy tits up? Too late. Transition to a green economy. Meat production is one of the hugest culprits in global warning. Going veggie is equivalent to switching from a Hummer to a Prius, in terms of carbon footprint. The moral dilemma is one meat eaters own. It's your responsibility because you created it. But then again, you don't seem to do very well with moral dilemmas. Maybe you'd like the career of a piece of meat?
kesisu 2 years ago
Basically your argument is: "We've been breeding and killing, breeding and killing, breeding and killing and we just can't stop! " That's one hell of a moral dilemma you've got of your hands. I wonder what the solution could be? Good luck figuring it out.
kesisu 2 years ago
The solution is ban battery farming,which as I've pointed out numerous time,I don't agree with or support.Increase the price of free-range,organic meat products which will effectivly price the poor out of buying cheap meat.Dont make it available and they cant unwittingly support battery farms by lining up at McDonalds,thereby forcing the majority to adopt whats always been considered a healthy diet,lots of fruit/veg,and a small amout of meat.
eels05 2 years ago
Knock off the meat completely and you've got a deal. There's no kind way to butcher.
kesisu 2 years ago
WE dont live in a bubble.Every action we take will always impact on this world.
There is a kind way to butcher,and their is a kind way to raise animals for butchering.
Its called organic farming.
If your main objection is to taking a life in its prime then I call mass murder every time a row of carrots is uprooted for consuption.Why not leave them to die a natural death in the ground?
eels05 2 years ago
"There is a kind way to butcher"??? You'd scare George Orwell half to death. What if someone told you they were going to bludgeon you over the head with a big stone. They'd say, "Don't worry, I'm doing it kindly. It's organic." They're planning to use a nice natual rock. You wouldn't feel a thing. What's the problem? Nothing personal, they're actually being very kind to you when you think about it. They're just really hungry and you'd taste so darn good. Good idea?
kesisu 2 years ago
To resort to your ridiculous carrot argument betrays extreme desperation. You go try hooking a cow through it's ankles, hoist it upside down, slit it's throat so it starts to bleed to death, then decapitate it so quickly that it's eyes are still twitching & looking back at you as you cut out it's tongue. Next, go pull a carrot out of the ground & tell me which act is more violent. Animals have central nervous systems like humans. Why not leave them to live natural lives outside of your stomach?
kesisu 2 years ago
What the hell kind of slaughter techniques are you trying to prsent as standard here?
Why do I need to repeat myself.I dont condone battery farming or their mass slaughter techniques.
Organically raised animals are taken with a quick bolt to the brain,BANG,thats it,all over.
Also the constant calling for me to voluteer myself or my family for slaughter to 'see how it feels',is really wearing thin now,still without managing to stike me with the conscious I apparently lack.
eels05 2 years ago
Oh I see, they're "Taken". Isn't that sweet? You make it sound like you're lifting them on a chariot up to heaven, surrounded by a choir of angels. A soft tap on the head & they're magically transformed into happy burgers & you get the added benefit of the illusion of an assuaged conscience. You can't even spell the word, much less drum one up. I guess you don't really need a conscience when you're in the fortunate position of being merely struck by arguments & not by a quick bolt to the head.
kesisu 2 years ago
If whiney and emotional responses dont have the desired effect of shocking or somehow distressing me into some shame ridden apologetic position,why do you continue with this tactic?
Its like being slapped by a limp wristed teary eyed schoolgirl,or whacked with limp lettuce.
eels05 2 years ago
It's generally not considered a good quality to be completely desensitized to the pain you inflict on others. Nor are shameless acts of violence a virtue. Shame is useful if it prevents one from continuing horrendous cruelty. And whining? I guess if you're not willing to hear the whining cries of your victims, you certainly don't want your fellow humans confronting you about it directly. Again, you opt for the limp lettuce while it's the victims of your appetite who get whacked.
kesisu 2 years ago
As much as you'd like to believe otherwise,you don't have a monopoly on virtue,morals and setting the standard for each.
As soon as I start to hear some serious discussion about exactly how to go about scaling back battery farming and how a post meat eating world would function,without any whiney,negative,pious pontificating about the evils of meat eating thrown in like a broken record,I'll start taking you seriously.
eels05 2 years ago
I'm simply pointing to an inconsistency in your reasoning. You have offered no criteria as reasons why animals should be subjected to violence, while human beings (the group you happen to belong to) should be exempted from it. Are animals too dumb? Too uncommunicative? Too furry? Or just too different from us to qualify for the protection from violence you preserve for humans alone? Historically, many similar benchmarks of worthiness have been applied within human society with horrific results.
kesisu 2 years ago
And I'm mearly pointing out that hardline vegetarians always resort to the same ineffectual guilt tactics instead of talking about all those boring topics I've already pointed out are lacking in the discission.
Banner waving,throwing buckets of blood around for dramatic effect,taking a dramatic heroic stance against the evil system blah blah blah.The real work of effecting change would be less thrilling and more like real work.
eels05 2 years ago
'm sorry if our discussion seems dramatic to you, but humans killing animals for food seems extremely dramatic to me. Interesting that you accuse us of figuratively throwing buckets of blood around, while you're actually engaged in spilling buckets of blood.
How would a post meat eating world function? Very well in fact. People would be healthier & much happier knowing they weren't destroying the environment & contributing to world hunger. We'd be preserving our water supply.
kesisu 2 years ago
We'd be drastically reducing our carbon footprint. We'd be preventing tremendous amounts of waste nitrates & phosphates from finding their way into our bays & creating enormous dead zones. We'd be saving our topsoil & our rain forests, including thousands of species that live in them. How do we go about scaling back slaughter houses? Simple. Stop eating meat. Be the change you want to see in the world.
kesisu 2 years ago
Yeah you see,this is what I'm talking about.
You jump straight from A to Z,with no discussion of all the boring details of how to reach Z.
Maybe I'm not the right person to discuss it with,but I can certainly point out to hardline vegetarians that its an obvious omission from their arguements.The endless moralizing is best left at the pulpit.If you really want to change the world then roll your sleezes up and dig in.
eels05 2 years ago
Stop making excuses for why it can't be done & start becoming part of the solution. Don't buy meat & they'll sell something else. It's just that simple. After all, anyone who would butcher animals for profit would peddle anything. Do you weep for out of work whalers? Has our economy collapsed without them? Should we never try to phase out fossil fuels? What I'd like to hear is discussion on how we can't afford to not phase meat out considering the havoc it's production wreaks on our environment.
kesisu 2 years ago
One more time.
These are the arguements that are missing from most debates on meat eating.You put people off with endless moralizing.Ever seen a realistic step by step plan to scale back battery farming and increase vegetable production?No?Well why not then?
What the hell are you hardcore vegetarians waiting for?A written invitation?
Put that on the table besides or instead of the lofty moral disdain.
eels05 2 years ago
Ban fast food from advertising on TV the same way cigarette commercials were banned in '71. In my life time the numbers of smokers in the US have fallen from 50% to 20% of the population due mainly to Public Service Announcements. Has this loss of revenue for tobacco producers crippled the economy? Create PSAs promoting the health advantages of a meatless diet & we're on our way. Colonel Sanders can commiserate with the out of work whalers. And I'll give you a box of tissues for cattle ranchers.
kesisu 2 years ago
Great lets get it started already.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "...instead of talking about all those boring topics I've already pointed out are lacking in the discission."
From what angle would you like to approach? It's unhealthy for humans to consume meat. Vegans and vegetarians are physically stronger and recover from exertion more quickly. It certainly not beneficial to the animals or the environment. It's grossly wasteful. Meat-consumption is the leading cause of death among humans & animals, & the reason for rain-forest depletion.
Beastt17 2 years ago
I'd like to see discussions on how not to bankrupt whole continents of farmers,how to ensure continued food supply while in a transitional stage,planning for disruption to farming crops due to environmental factors just for a start.
These topics don't even scratch the surface of the sheer amount of work that would need to be done even before any hard pysical changes were put into place.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05,
Think for a moment; what happened to stage coach and buggy manufactures when the car took over for horse-drawn transportation? What happened to telegraph companies when the telephone took over?
You seem to envision an over-night change. Do you think that's realistic? Or is it fairly obvious that any such change must take place slowly? Did smokers all quit the day after cigarettes were conclusively implicated in lung cancer and other health hazards?
It's simply not a problem.
Beastt17 2 years ago
It is fairly obvious yes.
And it sounds like your underestimating what a mammoth task it will be.
But you'll have to forgive me when I point out all the nitty gritty discussion about How to achieve this vegetarian utopia is usually lacking from any debate.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "it sounds like your underestimating what a mammoth task it will be"
Best that we just allow the cruelty, suffering and needless death continue then... for convenience sake?
I'm sure that prior to the emancipation of the slaves, many suggested the same thing. For some reason though, many still thought it was a worth-while cause - enough to fight a war over it. I tend to agree with them.
Beastt17 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "Organically raised animals are taken with a quick bolt to the brain,BANG,thats it,all over."
Let's start with this; take your family in and have them killed by the captive-bolt method, (which is what you're talking about), then tell me of the kindness shown your family.
Secondly, the captive-bolt method hasn't been used for years because it rips away neural tissue which can spread through the circulatory system, potentially contaminating the tissues with the prions of BSE.
Beastt17 2 years ago
A meat eater's diet uses up 3 times the fossil fuel as that of a veggie. Going veggie is equivalent to trading in your Hummer for a Prius in terms of carbon footprint. We lose 55 sq ft of rain forest for every 1/4 lb of beef produced there. We import 300mil lbs of beef from Central & S. Am. yearly. Beef production is ridiculously inefficient in terms of land & water use when compared with directly growing crops for human consumption. Sorry to burst your bubble but were not alone on this planet.
kesisu 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "There is a kind way to butcher,and their is a kind way to raise animals for butchering."
Might you be willing to submit to 6 to 12 months of being raised for slaughter, at the end of which you will be butchered in a kind fashion. so that you might demonstrate your assertion to have merit?
Butchering is the taking of sentient life and that is always wrong, no matter what the method used. Submit your mother, your wife and children to being butchered, then tell us of the kindness
Beastt17 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "then I call mass murder every time a row of carrots is uprooted for consuption"
I find it amazing the number of people who are willing to trade their intellect for such a sad and pathetic attempt at an argument. When you're willing to suggest that you can't tell the difference between a plant with no neural system and an animal which shows every desire to fight for it's life, the only thing demonstrated is such severe desperation for an argument, that you'll present the absurd.
Beastt17 2 years ago
Bravo Beastt17!
kesisu 2 years ago
Animals slaughtered the fashion I've already stated don't fight for their life because they percieve no danger.
I'm basically not desperate for an arguement because I see no moral objection to eating meat.The only moral objection I have is to animals that suffer throughout their lifespan.
And though I've found your scientific refutations interesting,I still wonder how many of the studys you refer to take into consideration other factors contributing to obesity and heart desiese.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "I'm basically not desperate for an arguement because I see no moral objection to eating meat."
Is it just me? From where I stand that IS a large part of the argument. Just because you want to pretend that only the lives of people matter doesn't mean the rest of us need to share in a delusion which is devoid of any supporting evidence and only seems to serve as a psychological buffer so you can do what you wish, and not worry about the horrendous acts carried out for your sake.
Beastt17 2 years ago
I could say the same of your insistance that its completely morally wrong to take an animals life for food.Theres no right or wrong here and we could but heads over the morality on this topic forever.
You cant just insist that I suddenly find meat eating morally wrong,I just dont.
Animals die in nature.Animals eat other animals.We are a part of the food chain like it or not.
My only concern with this topic is the safe erradication of battery farming.
eels05 2 years ago
So it's your stance that it's not morally wrong to needlessly take the live of a sentient feeling being? That suggests that you don't support laws against murder... except that you make an exception for humans, simply because you are human. How convenient to be able to engage in special-pleading, simply for one's own sake.
Beastt17 2 years ago
I dont want to have to point out the obvious but humans murder each other all the time.Pick up a newspaper,it'll be full of humans treating each other like...animals.Under those conditions maybe its time to be realistic about hardline vegetarians will be able to acheive.
I'm all for humans not murdering each other but,as the daily news contantly reminds me,were way off from achieving some kind of peaceful utopia.Quit living in your ideal senario,and work with whats here and do-able.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "I dont want to have to point out the obvious but humans murder each other all the time."
That makes such action neither appropriate, proper nor defensible. The same goes for slaughtering non-human species. You suggest it's as good as it can be and that we just accept it. Some suggest it can be better.
"For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love." -- Pythagoras
Beastt17 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "Quit living in your ideal senario,and work with whats here and do-able."
Perhaps if you were more inclined to accept the realities, what's "do-able" would be far better than what we have.
"Arson and CRUELTY TO ANIMALS are 2 of 3 childhood warning signs regarding the potential to be a serial killer. (To no longer objectify living beings by ceasing hunting and fishing takes one 1 step further away from the murder of humans.)" -John Douglas, profiler of serial killers for the FBI
Beastt17 2 years ago
So your saying all meat eaters are serial killers?
Now you have to agree with me that's a ridiculous arguement.
Charles Manson-vegetarian
Pol Pot-vegetarian
Ghenghis Khan-vegetarian
Ted Bundy-Converted to vegetarian in his last years.
Do I take it taht this now means theres a direct connection between eating lots of vegetables and some of the worst mass killers of history?
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "So your saying all meat eaters are serial killers?"
Where did you read that? What would make you jump to such a ridiculous conclusion, unless you recognized that only by turning to the ridiculous, could you even attempt to rebuff the observations presented? When you have to suggest such obvious absurdities, it's an indication that you already know your argument has failed. But rather than accept the reality, you fabricate the ridiculous and carry on.
Beastt17 2 years ago
You were the one who presented the study into childhood pyromania and cruelty to animals as 2 out of 3 warning signs of a serial killer for..........what reason exactly??
Was there actually a point in that,that was meant to be infered about meat eaters in general,but not really?
Why the hell do you bring these arguements to the table then get defensive when I present either the flip side or debate the intention of your own comments?
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "...2 out of 3 warning signs of a serial killer for..........what reason exactly??"
While it's perfectly obvious: to demonstrate the link between cruel treatment and killing of animals and the cruel treatment and killing of the animals known as "homosapien", by homosapien. If you can kill one feeling, sentient being, killing another feeling sentient being isn't much of a stretch. It's a far cry from plucking an ear of corn.
Beastt17 2 years ago
And by presenting it in the context of the vegetarian debate I'm not meant to infer or apply it to all meat eaters?
Come on think about what your saying.
You've just stated there is a link between serial killing and meat eating.I presented some vegetarian mass murderers in rebutle.
Not that I'm taking the high road here,but I won't go as far to suggest all vegos are mass murderers,but without suggesting it openly.That would be ridiculous.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "I'm not meant to infer or apply it to all meat eaters?"
It's a concept. It applies equally to everyone. Da Vinci was a brilliant man and a boon to mankind. His ideas are worth a bit of reverence. Hitler was a murderous maniac. There's nothing violent, murderous or malevolent about abstaining from the cruelty, suffering and death of meat consumption.
Many serial killers are ex-military. Not all ex-military are serial killers. Do you hold no understanding of odds & ratios?
Beastt17 2 years ago
Again this all stems of from your comments about childhood signs of serial killers.
Either take owership of your own statements or let it die..a natural organic death.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "Again this all stems of from your comments about childhood signs of serial killers."
It's not at all the same thing and the worst part is that you're perfectly aware that it's not. But for days now, everytime you start to realize that your arguments keep failing, you run to the absurd.
Statistics do show a correlation between cruelty to animals and serial killers. That's a fact you have to live with. It doesn't mean that any singular pair of traits represents a statistic.
Beastt17 2 years ago
And there it is AGAIN.
"STATISTICS do show a correlation between cruelty to animals and serial killers."
and now...
"It dosen't mean that any singular pair of traits represents a STATISTIC."
Hello....WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY HERE???!
You introduce this 'statistic' as an arguement,but not really,then call it absurd when I point out theres been vegetarian mass killers.
Make up your mind.Its either damning evidence against meat eating or its not.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "Hello....WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY HERE?"
I'm simply saying that a higher than normal correlation between those who commit cruelty to animals and serial killers doesn't mean that everyone who is cruel to animals will be a serial killer. But it does mean that the chances are much higher, and that there is a correlation between the two behaviors, whether you wish to see that or not. The experts see it. You can remain as blind as you choose.
Beastt17 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "You introduce this 'statistic' as an arguement,but not really,then call it absurd when I point out theres been vegetarian mass killers."
Would you really rather have everyone think you're too ignorant to understand the significance of a statistic than to admit there is a flaw in your ideals?
One vegetarian who is a mass killer isn't a statistic. You'd have to show that vegetarians are MORE likely to be mass killers than non-vegetarians. The opposite appears to be true.
Beastt17 2 years ago
eels05 - RE: "Make up your mind.Its either damning evidence against meat eating or its not."
It is. It's also damning evidence against the "morality" you promote and claim to hold. Those who can commit atrocities toward animals are more likely to commit atrocities toward other people. Noting one or two vegetarian killers doesn't change the significance of statistics which show that those who are cruel to animals are MORE LIKELY to be cruel to people, than those who are not cruel to animals.
Beastt17 2 years ago
Whats really absurd here is despite the fact that I agree with almost all of your arguements about the health benefits of vegetables and the horrors of battery farming,you continually need to push for some kind of vain total mastery of this debate,which sadly you'll never achieve,due to the sole fact that you cant force your moral outlook on someone over the internet.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "you cant force your moral outlook on someone over the internet."
Of course not. It would be as futile as attempting to demonstrate the true shape of the Earth to a flat-Earther or to explain evolution to a creationist. You just look away, stubbornly ignore the demonstrations which uncover the failures of your proposed standards, and ignore anything inconsistent with the beliefs you've chosen. It's easy to stubbornly hold onto failed ideas. Accepting unwanted truths is hard.
Beastt17 2 years ago
eels05, Let's take you for instance. You eat meat and you seem to enjoy putting forth absolutely ridiculous arguments when cornered. Does that mean that every meat-eater puts forth ridiculous arguments? Some debate quite courteously and intelligently.
You're trying to develop meaningful statistics out of a body of data equaling one.
Beastt17 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "...were way off from achieving some kind of peaceful utopia."
Perhaps if people like you were less selfish and stubborn and a bit more willing to see the problems, we'd be able to achieve a better standard.
"I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men." - Leonardo da Vinci
Maybe... just maybe, these people are more intelligent than you.
Beastt17 2 years ago 2
This guy agrees with Leonardo,"One may regret living at a period when its impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume.But theres one thing I can predict to eaters of meat:the world of the future will be vegetarian."-Adolf Hitler.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "This guy agrees with Leonardo... -Adolf Hitler."
Let's just follow along with that line of "logic" and see where it takes us, shall we? In the world today there are some 2.3 billion Christians. They believe that Jesus Christ was God or God's representative, sent to Earth to be sacrificed for the sins of man. The Jews charged Jesus with a crime and turned him over to the Romans for crucifixion. Hitler was a Christian and hated the Jews. Does that make all Christians Jew-haters?
Beastt17 2 years ago
Oh I'm sorry I thought we were supplying quotes from famous people like it meant something.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "Oh I'm sorry I thought we were supplying quotes from famous people like it meant something."
It means something if the subject quoted is someone to hold in great respect. If you think Hitler qualifies, then knock yourself out. Comparing Hitler to da Vinci is just a bit beyond insane.
Beastt17 2 years ago
And yet Hitler was a vegetarian or at least strove to be.One of yours.
eels05 2 years ago
eels05, - RE: "And yet Hitler was a vegetarian or at least strove to be. One of yours."
There is zero correlation between Hitler's treatment of gastric distress through a vegetarian diet and the heinous acts for which he is known. He was also a Christian, spoke German and had a mustache. You might as well suggest that everyone with a mustache, everyone who speaks German and every Christian (or theist for that matter), are complicit in Hitler's behaviors. You're being ridiculous.
Beastt17 2 years ago
No what were doing right now is following the debate along a natural path from your 2 out of 3 serial killer remarks.
This is what it leads to when you try to fit some vague study into your baised world veiw.
eels05 2 years ago