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From: stefbot
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  • @pattycakes65 Good stuff.

  • I have to disagree with this statement though:

    "People do not die in an economic collapse". I understand your point, it's not war, disease or famine.

    However, people do die. If you look at Argentina's collapse, it may well be the best corollary to us that I can think of. It was a well built capitalistic country that fell from debt, fiat money and corruption.

    Not exactly the same but closer than the Soviets or Weimar.

    Learn to defend yourself and save a little of what you need.

  • @Zen5012 There is no such thing as a "capitalistic country," unless you're talking about a completely voluntary nation, and that's never the case. All governments are inherently socialist in nature.

  • @MrJosephMarzullo

    Sure, but you have to understand that "capitalistic" is used in it's modern definition, like "Freedom" or liberal or conservative.

    There can certainly be a capitalist country but, you're right, it would have to be one based on voluntary contractual obligations. This means that, not only must a Government not be in place, there is no need for one to be in place.

  • @Zen5012 I agree with you. Friend request sent ;) Capitalism has a bad name, but so does socialism, and rightly so. I think of myself as a voluntaryist. Are you ancap. I'm also an atheist. Are you a buddhist? I think buddhism is a great guide for 'how to live', but, other than that, I see a lot of the same bs you see in other religions. Karma.. doesn't exist. There is no proof of an afterlife, for example. Sorry for going off-topic :p I think a better philosophy would be the one Stefan advocates

  • Erin Burnett w/ CNBC said:

    "I think people should be careful what they wish for on China. Ya know, if China were to revalue it's currency or China is to start making say, toys that don't have lead in them or food that isn't poisonous, their costs of production are going to go up and that means prices at Wal-Mart here in the United States are going to go up too."

    This spokesmouth for The State said, enjoy Chinese Poison because it's cheap.

    END THE FUCKING STATE!

  • I find it telling that real wages started stagnating shortly after the US went to a full fiat currency.

  • Keynes--pronounced as CANES. Not 'KEENS'

    C'mon....let's get it right.

    John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes, CB (pronounced /ˈkānz/) (5 June 1883 21 April 1946) was a British economist whose ideas have been a central influence on modern macroeconomics, both in theory and practice.

  • @bgarri57

    He's also a man responsible for much of the economic terrorism that we are living through today.

    Government does not result in success. The money they spend to "help the economy" comes from decent working people taken at the point of a gun.

    Well done - Central Planners - Well done.

    And congrats on copying and pasting a wikipedia article.

  • why is it "the empire strikes out" when it is really "the empire strikes back" with economic collapse so they can consolidate wealth and have an excuse to bring change goldman sachs can believe in.

  • hey , bold head man , do you try to scare people ?

    Well , everyone already scared, can we try something newer ?

  • The bald man, has spent years reading about the past. He has spent years, finding the truth.

    He is distilling the information, presenting it in a way that can be understood by many.

    All I hear is truth, testable, verifyable truth.

    If the truth scares you. Go back to church.

  • The more research on this that I do, the more libertarian I become... and it just feels sooooooooooo good.

  • Depressions are some of the best chances to make the most money. Buy stuff pennies on the dollar, and when the economy picks up, the value skyrockets.

  • ..... Yea.... If the depression ends. You fail to see how this affects us all.

  • This is a very good video. Thanks.

  • IMO the entire industrialized world was rebuilding after WWII and american corporations had a huge advantage...no competition. Unions were able to drive wages through the roof and everybody was happy.

    Well, it couldn't last. The world rebuilt, and around 1970 foreign competition started to bite. We couldn't compete with nations paying a fraction of our wages,

    So...there was NO option but to allow wages to stagnate. And this will continue until some equilibrium is reached.

  • How can wages or product prices balance out between the usa and china when china has an unlimited supply of cheap labour ? They messed up when they took out manufacturing tech. to china,now we r screwed

  • zeno: That's exactly the point. Given the size of the 3rd World (not just China) and their very low wages, it will take a loooong time for equilibrium to be reached. In other words, our are going to remain relatively flat for a very long time, and our standard of living will slowly decrease.

    It's actually been decreasing since about 1975. Used to be a high school grad could get a union job and own a home, 2 cars, some toys, and have a nice pension. Mom stayed at home full time. Not anymore.

  • smeg⋅ma /ˈsmɛgmə/ [smeg-muh]

    noun a thick, cheeselike, sebaceous secretion that collects beneath the foreskin or around the clitoris.

  • 12/12/2012 New Age of Enlightenment begins.

  • 12/21/2012. 11:11am. Go look at your Mayan calender.

  • the government does not control the money supply the federal reserve or european bank do which ar privatley owned and they print money from nothing and loan it at intrest to governments,so all the money loaned to all the countrys at intrest all goes back to a few bankster familys

  • Yup!

  • Great work Stef!

  • Definition of a slave: a person who is owned by someone

    Definition of an employee: a worker who is hired to perform a job

    Definition of a worker: a person who works at a specific occupation

    Definition of a person: a human being

    If you grow tomatoes in someone else's garden you are an employee, not a slave. You can quit any time you like and find another job, or maybe even start your own garden.

    Wouldnt that be something?

  • You r right ,I used to be a dealership mechanic,in the winter thing were slow so I worked on cars at my house at night ,I found out I could make as much in one night as all week on the job so I quit and now work 4 myself.Since peeps r not buying new cars the old ones will need repair,more work 4 me,LOL

  • time to come off the us dollar and try the euro.wall st corruption continues to drag the world into recession or in this case a depression

  • "If no one knows the true cause there can be no revolution possible."

    Everyone always knows the true cause. Apes that call themselves fucking civilized. They can never be civilized in a capitalistic society. Anyone who disagrees is a fucking moron who was duped like the rest of the fucking sheepherd.

  • Recently I read an article that forecasted the US having a 9% unemployment rate, losing 3 million jobs (forgot the year when this would happen). The response from the Obama team was to plan spending ~800 billion dollars to stimulate the economy. My question is: Where do they get this money, can they "run out" (can they spend two trillion if they wanted?) - and most importantly, what are the long term ramifications of this? I'm kind of new to economics, so simple answers appreciated! Thanks

  • I understand the government makes money from taxpayers, but here they're just going into massive deficits. I wonder if there is any issue..I'm thinking inflation later on? It seems pretty bad. Don't we already owe China a few trillion dollars? Its like it doesn't matter how much in debt the US becomes..

  • oops..I'm Canadian, so by "we" I meant "the US"

  • I've read that if part time workers who would like to be full time workers and those who have given up on finding a job were included the unemployment rate would be 13.5% (ASSUMING the source is accurate)

  • You might enjoy videos produced by a man under the screen name "LORAX 2013". Similar scope of subjects. He's quite brilliant and enlightened.

  • Totally agree. Lorax and Stef are some of the brightest people on youtube.

  • EVERYTHING would work fine in a free society! Gold, Silver, Cow pies for that matter. ;-) Bless you, brother. Your distillation of a mind-numbing subject (purposefully designed to be un-understandable by those who profit) is worth an award. I appreciate your stance on cabal? / no cabal?.. BUT you have to admit that the Masonic Brotherhood is starting to smell pretty bad after centuries of secretism.

  • 3o minutes of pure education. Brilliant. So how do you like gold/silver?

  • Thanks, I appreciate your kind words -- I would be happy in a free society to explore gold and silver, I talk more about how free market currencies could operate in my free book Practical Anarchy, available on my website... :)

  • I agreed with everything he said right up until the point of "What Happens After the Collapse?" It seems like he thinks the collapse will usher in a new age of reason and prosperity. This will not happen. The government controls all property and thus all means of production. They not only control property though taxation and regulation, but they are not becoming the primary lein holder for the entire country. The only thing coming after a collapse is unprecidented poverty!

  • The truth is painful. Revolution can only come from mass knowledge, and every recession/depression before ended the same way you described, and to my knowledge no one knew what really caused it. If no one knows the true cause there can be no revolution possible.

  • Everyone should watch this video!! Thanks for the research!

  • 2 christmas holidays and we are out of the rut.

  • "here in the USA, people kill each other over basketball games, what do you think will happen when their mothers can't get medical service or can't fill up their cars with gas or whatever else...I can definitely see new big gangs forming"

    Easily available credit breeds insanity, ignorance, and arrogance. The end of that easy credit will breed even more. Welcome to humanity.

  • Thank you sir for the wonderful insight. I appreciate your research.

  • so the fuckin government controls inflation? fuck em.

  • Many EXCELLENT points (detailing why Americans will not fare as well as the Soviets did during their economic collapse) are made here:

    energybulletin (dot net) /node/23259

  • Your videos are addictive.

  • braincrack ;)

  • ...... 60 % head on 40% bullshit .... he studied history? .... He must have been on smack as it came to dieing empires!

  • ps: you will eat your words in 2012 when mexico stops exporting OIL to the US considering the 40% bullshit

  • Clear and easy to understand. Super done!

    I am not as optimistic as you reg. the future of the US, but I hope freedom and pro-life ideologies will have a chance despite the many black spots in the system, laws etc.

    There is no doubt a small elite has been running the show for the past century. They are either covering their tracks or grabbing as much treasure as you said. Hopefully most of them will loose their power in the crash.

  • It isnt any mystery, Karl Marx realized over 100 years ago. It comes down to simple math in the end. USA was the most advanced capitalist power and thus, they are having these problems sooner than others but the rest are not far behind. Capitalism doesnt work.

  • I would amend your statement slightly to say that violence does not work... I hope you don't mind too much! :)

  • Corporatism.

  • This is not capitalism. It's corporatism, fascism (blend of corporations (especially banks+media) and government)) and what you can call debtalism.

  • Marx didnt predict fascism but he predicted capitalist democracies (not democracies in the true sense of the word at all) would become more and more tyranical as the mathematic contradictions mount.

  • You're right that capitalist democracies become more tyrannical all the time. But you're misdiagnosing the cause. It's not the capitalism in capitalist democracies - it's the democracy.

  • So trading with people voluntarily = evil

    and

    People point guns at others to take money = good?

  • WTF are you talking about? Communism is in favor of free trade for everyone, not just for a few capitalist pigs in order to exploit everyone else for their own selfish gain.

    Look, this is really simple! Read some, any of the works by Marx and/or Lenin and learn the truth about the history of the Soviet Union (specifically, how Stalinism emerged) or shut the f##k up because only a moron comments on things he or she knows nothing about.

  • not to mention how long it is going to take for us to turn around a massively stupid society known as the USA...it'll take centuries to reverse the damage...people are so stupid, you don't even know how dumb they are and I almost have to turn away sometimes because the stupidity is almost blinding...

  • wow, great video...this video deserves to be watched twice in fact...you seem very optimistic...I'm must less optimistic about our future...these people that are doing these things to the American people, you think they will just stop after the bankruptcy?...I have a hard time believing that...they killed 3000 people just for greed on 9/11/2001...these people only have an allegiance to satan obviously and not to the USA...I tend to think we are fucked...sorry but that's how I feel

  • those murderers are still out there, they are walking the streets, they are on our television sets and after the bankruptcy, they will still be there...

  • stefbot, if I could make a suggestion...I think your video would be better if the upper left-hand box showing his face were a little bigger so we could see his face a little better....

  • "And now, several years later, both are doing just fine. In fact, you will be amazed at the rapid change in Ireland's economic growth - from among the worst to the best in Europe!"

    And maybe in 50-100 years the U.S. will be just fine. But in the meantime, it has over ten trillion worthless dollars of debt to pay back. Like, oops.

  • The collapse described has already happened in two countries - Ireland and New Zealand. Both were relatively small countries with high government spending until they ran out of money.

    Both adopted small government free market principles, not because they wanted to, but because they couldn't afford to do otherwise. And now, several years later, both are doing just fine. In fact, you will be amazed at the rapid change in Ireland's economic growth - from among the worst to the best in Europe!

  • What a great, great video. No it doesn't have photo chopped people dancing around, and no this guy isn't making spooky claims. Instead it's one of the best damned video's I've seen in a long time. Enjoy!

  • Thanks so much! :)

  • jingleshady is right, no one should be president...I think the solution is anarchy, which doesn't mean no rules...it means no RULERS, only slaves need rulers; free and moral people govern themselves

  • that would not work

  • it wrorked in my country "somalia", welcom to the club.

  • No one should become President without proving they have a really good understanding

    of how socio-economic systems work;especially

    their own! Both Republicans & Democrats

    obviously DONT UNDERSTAND BASIC SOCIO-ECONOMICS (but,if they understood and still let this mess to happen; without doing ABSOLUTLY EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER TO PREVENT or CONTROL it Then those INCOMPETENT BASTARDS HAVEN'T got A FUCKING EXCUSE!

    Jail government fuck-ups + those corrupt, greedy corporate CEOs!

  • I agree only with your first 5 words.

  • I wish I shared your optimism regarding our final collapse.

    "Meet the new boss

    Same as the old boss"

  • Great summary, but missing one important point. Generally, as debt increases, it gives lenders cause to believe that the debtor is unable to repay their debt, and this leads to a change in the lending rate. And yet, as the delinquent US government racked up more and more debt to lender nations, the T-Bill rate essentially remained the same. Why?

    Could it be because the US collects a worldwide tax on a vital resource, collecting this tax at gunpoint?

  • Wish more (like Steff and Lew Rockwell) would provide some useful suggestions. I have lots of cash but no house, if the dollar (CDN) loses value, will the housing prices drop too? Should I be putting money in gold? Buying lots of stuff nor no stuff? I've been reading Lew for five years, and understood what was coming but not what to do about it.

  • The best year the equity markets ever had was in 1933! You should just wait a little and buy companies that you know and understand. I work with people who ask me the same question all the time.

    Study history, George Santayana was right: History Repeats.

  • plllllllllllllllllllllllllllll­llllllllllllll

  • This is why I love the Internet so much. It allows you to expose yourself to various influences and sources of information and to coalesce things into a unified whole. When it comes to learning about the ecomomic crisis, this video was amazing, so kudos to Stef. I also listen to people like Gerald Celente, Muhammad Rafeeg, Mish Shedlock,

    Webster Griffin Tarpley, and others. I now feel I know enough about it to be able to make informed decisions for myself.

  • What's a broadcast planet?

  • Inflation is the Price of Bad Government.

  • any government, over time, I would say...

  • intersting!

    could you please tell your listeners what will happen to europe in the future?

    thank you!

  • yay goodbye united states

  • me too...yay goodbye USA...I'm an American and even I can't wait until USA is gone by by...this country sucks...hahahaha...

  • awesome

  • Hilarious video title!

  • 'Run away train', 'House of cards' and 'The domino effect' are three ways of describing how empires work.

  • Yes, he referred me to the book where he brings it up just a few minutes after I posted the question.

  • Gooooo(fuck yourself)State!Now we need to get rid of this God and Jesus bullshit and we might be able to advance as a species.

  • I wonder how the current savings rate in the states compares to other times in history...like say, the decade leading up to the Great Depression...

  • @anarchyantichrist

    I really hope you feel stupid now, you poor babbling bozo.

  • I am not sure where you get the idea that people don't die during a financial collapse.

    I have talked to many people who went through the great depression and they have all told me about how there friends died from starvation and the diseases that resulted from the unsanitary conditions of the time.

    You are just fooling yourself if you think we are going to get out of this with out a major world wide economic depression.

    As for there not being a war have you been watching the news lately?

  • The depression was caused be continuing government intervention not by financial system failure. The crash in 1921 was even greater, yet no one died then.

  • carlfinkle, that's what I'm saying too...maybe stefbot doesn't live in the USA...here in the USA, people kill each other over basketball games, what do you think will happen when their mothers can't get medical service or can't fill up their cars with gas or whatever else...I can definitely see new big gangs forming and trying to run the streets...maybe gang vs us army war or something...who knows...

  • I greatly appreciate you putting together this video. I have subscribed to your channel and will soon start diving into your podcasts.

  • The vast majority of people who are irrational to start with are not going to wake up and smell the irrationality of the previous system even after a collapse. They don't matter anyway because they are too complacent. The power hungry will seize power and we'll have whatever they decide to thrust on us but you better believe it will be for their benefit and not out of some sense of benevolence.

  • Excellent analysis.

  • If the majority of Americans are in debt, then inflation would only harm the wealthy minority. This is why the interest rates have been lowered, why the bail out is so important, and why the administration is so desperate to prevent inflation.

  • great vid.

  • you know what's the problem? The private sector isn't enough to sustain even a small portion of the middle class in the US, most of the private companies have left where manufacturing is cheaper in other countries, one of them being China.

  • We will call on the help of our neighbors to the north and south. We will be rushed into a NAU and the Amero will be the best solution ever. Welcome to the end.

    Just remember, if someone shows up saying that they are here to help, run like fucking hell.

  • Here's the Conservative Analysis of the Credit Crisis and Economic Downturn

    1999 there was $160m of subprime loans with a default rate of about 2% as the CDA was offset by anti-predatory lending laws.

    2002 the Executive branch of govt began pre-emption policy telling state AGs not to enforce state laws on predatory lending that were tougher than federal laws.

    2002 at the urging of Republican Congress and White House, Alan Greenspan loosens credit and floods market with dollars...

  • ...

    2003 the SEC with a Bush minion lifted 12:1 leverage limit on investment banks.

    2004 federal pre-emption regarding predatory lending became rule, via directive of the Office of the Comptroller, a division of Treasury (Bush appointees).

    2005 dollar begins to tank in a more pronounded way due to huge money supply and soaring U.S. debts piled up past few years.

    2006 subprime loans grew to $600b.

  • 2007 energy prices (and other commodities such as food) soar, making paying mortgages and other expenses more difficult for middle Americans.

    2007 Investment Banks were levered to about 40:1, except at month end to satisfy regulators when they were about 30:1

  • 2008 foreclosures soar approaching 9% and show no sign of abating until mid to late 2009.

    2008 Bear Stearns, Lehman, Merrill, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley all had to recapitalize at draconian terms, go bust or be bought for less than 10% of their previous value.

    2008 credit so siezed up that banks won't even lend to each other, creating business cash shortage & forcing many business to cut expense by decreasing employment levels to their lowest pct of workforce in over 15 years.

  • 2008 bailouts of financial institutions by the Federal Govt will exceed $1 trillion, the economy is noticably slowing, household income is down and unemployment continues to ramp up.

    ----------------------------

    Conservative analysis:

    It's all Bill Clinton's fault, vote for McCain.

  • Really great summary kbadventures, and of course the unemployment levels will rise putting more stress on the welfare state, causing more debt and spiraling the problem further.

  • Uhh, is that why we had a surplus during Clinton's era? Not entirely because of him but he did have more fiscal constraint than all the president of the last 30 years. Who cares if they're democrat or republican. We need someone not a retard and understands the economy. That might neither be McCain or Obama. I still feel Obama is less of the two evils. I just can't justify voting for anyone that has a retarded VP pick (ie, Palin, Quayle.)

  • You and I think that the state is bassed on coercive force however the majority of people do not. They dont think of taxes as theft, see war as murder, and usually do not feel threatened by the state. In fact they usually laugh when you suggest any such thing. I think that if they realized that this is how the state operates a large enough segment would see the state in a different enough light to do some good but they wont hear it on Fox news and Stef wont get that many views.

  • They won't hear it on fox, but thankfully the internet is a free market of ideas unlike any other current media is or ever could be. As more and more people look to unregulated news and information sources I think we'll see a lot of people starting to change their perception (at least the people who have the capacity to process these kinda ideas).

  • Unfortunately all the talk on tv, and not coincidentally on main street is that this is from selfish corporate greed and a lack of altruistic government oversight (regulation). People still want the state to do something. Because they still see it as a panacea.

  • "what bullshit do I have to tell you so you wont punch me when I steal your money?!" Instant Classic.

  • Correlation is not causation.

    There is only one cause of inflation. And increase in the money supply relative to goods and services available.

    Real wages dropped regardless of inflation, savings rates dropped soon after.

    The conclusion that people are just trying to live as the used to is not a unfair assessment.

  • I am sorry to have disturbed you with the facts.

  • OK, facts not your thing, got it...

  • The more people buy, the cheaper the product becomes because of economies of scale and improved mass production techniques. The kind of inflation we're seeing is not isolated to a single product or market and therefor is a result of the money supply (i.e. government corruption)

  • I don't think you understand inflation.

    inflation occurs when our government uses their nifty little printing press to create as much money as they want.

    The more money that is in circulation, the less it is worth.

    When you buy and sell, are you changing the quantity of money? no. so you're not inflating it. You're simply shuffling it around in the market.

    If demand for gizmos goes up, the value will go up. In real life, demand for gizmos doesn't make the quantity of gizmos go up, just value

  • Yes- good example watch US Economy Collapsing explains it perfectly.

  • It seems to me that many of these problems are "globalized" (or becoming so). I know we (the U.S.) aren't the only fuckups on the planet. What about the rest of the world? There are so many things tying everybody (internationally) together (economically). Do you think that a U.S. economic collapse would be symptomatic of more generalized/widespread problems? What would be the international ramifications of an economic collapse in the U.S., even if it was an isolated collapse?

  • Scary shit isn't it?

  • i am not as optimistic, especially after encountering so many statists at mcgill..

  • The state will hold on to this sinking ship till the bitter end..

  • I need your advice, should I get myself some gold instead of keeping some money in the bank?

  • The bank is probably giving you a measly interest rate of around 1%, that %1 interest will not make up for the overwhelming inflation rate.

    Gold is a good way to hedge your money, yes, but be careful, there may be taxes on gold.

  • 24k karat gold is usually tax free I believe. (.9999 gold). At least in Canada, where's there's taxes on pretty much anything.

  • i support you

    greetings from netherlands

  • Stef. Have you done any videos on the concern that a stateless area previously known as USA would be exploited by other nations? Is that a baseless concern?

  • Not videos, no, but I do write about the topic in my free audiobook 'Practical Anarchy', available on my web site... :)

  • Quick web search reveals statistics claiming that there are over 60 million guns in privately held hands in the US. It would not be a fun country to invade.

  • Exploit does not mean armed war always. Anyhow. You don't think military strategy, where all units do according to a formed plan, well thought of to the situation, would defeat unexpected individual gun owners?

  • Probably your best video ever. I've been so angry all week about the $1Tn handed over to investment banks, but now I feel a bit better.

  • hasnt passed yet and its 700b

  • The total amount so far is in excess of $1Tn. Fannie and Freddie alone have total debts of over $5Tn. which the government has pledged to support. My guess is that they'll keep bailing as much as they can until interest rates on treasuries finally explode and the monetary system collapses. These politicians are so irresponsible it's not even funny.

  • the bill is still 700b

  • 700b, but with unlimited iterations of it!

  • nice, i got thumbs downed for stating the truth

  • I gave you two thumbs up...yeah, some people can't handle the truth...

  • I wonder if fiat dollars will continue to function as the means of exchange after the federal government has collapsed.

  • It all depends. The media, the government, religions, and educational institutions have all propagated the idea that money will "run dry!" *gasp* if we had a gold standard.

    I swear, the only cure to this mental disease is an independent education.

  • The vid is very nice, but I think conclusions are not accurate. First of all politicians can and will keep the show going using some set of new lies. Besides even without politicians its the nation that has the debt and it has to be paid back, right?

  • Oh no, debt is repudiated all the time.

  • Yes it is, but generally any default or repudiation of debt will change the credit rating of the debtor, and subsequently the lending rate.

    Increasing the lending rate to the debtor nation will increase the lending rate to the debtor nation's debtors, which will send many into default, causing the lending rate to increase further. This is the spiral of debt.

    The REAL question is, why hasn't this occurred already?

  • It will be paid back with worthless money.

  • Yup. When the dollar's worth nothing, even a trillion dollar debt is easy to repay.

  • never thought of it that way. However I got no debt so to me it still just means things cost more.

  • @lnd3005

    But in order to get that inflation killing the dollar value, the debt must rise.

    Inflation is simply an increase in the money supply. Higher prices, lower purchasing power etc. are symptoms of this. Paul Krugman finds his biggest weakness in this understanding.

    In order to increase a fiat money supply, debt MUST be created. Every dollar in existence is a debt instrument.

    From the day the Federal Reserve came into existence, it was mathematically impossible to pay the off the debt.

  • Awesome video from the Stefmeister himself. Don't forget to Digg this video!

  • I was just thinking that!

    More people need this message!

  • Smegma is a combination of exfoliated (shed) epithelial cells, transudated skin oils, and moisture. In males, smegma helps keep the glans moist and facilitates sexual intercourse by acting as a lubricant. It doesn't come from babies silly.

  • As I said, I'm just going with what the mom told me... :)

  • You would think they would get the idea to stop spending what they do not have...good vid as always stef.

  • One should also mention that national debt started to spiral out of control in the 70s AFTER Richard Nixon took the US off the gold standard.

  • EXCELLENT video as always, Stef. Your explanation is the most coherent I've ever seen.

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