Damascus was a great horse but not near as good as Dr. Fager. Dr. Fager would have won all 4 meetings but both times Damascus won his owner had to put a rabbit, Hedavar in to tiere Dr. Fager. The 2 times they raced head to head, no contest, Dr. Fager wins easy!!! Dr. Fager #3 of all time
According to the commentator, Hedevar was trying to "cook" the Doc by setting a 6f fraction of 1:09 1/5 at the 10f Woodward. Secretariat ran the same distance at the Belmont in 1:09 4/5, and he still had another 6 furlongs to go! The latter also clocked a 1 1/4 time of 1:59 flat at that race (beating his Derby time). This is not to take anything away from Dr. Fager, who was an absolute monster at shorter distances, and THE best miler of all time.
I don't believe in "rabbits" , especially in a race of 1967 for HOY. If a horse is only in there for the intention of "cooking" another horse,that horse shouldn't be in the race, period.
@funshipM174 I politely disagree. If we remove "rabbits", then we would also have to re-examine jockey strategy, such as "floating horses wide" and "pinning horses down on the hedge" and "boxing horses in." The end result is which horse will win under the allowed rules. Even "Match Races" really do not prove which horse is better. I appreciate these two horses as equally great, now. In the '60s, I chose sides. Now, I just marvel at the greatness we saw for those years. Thank you.
While I agree that Dr. Fager was the better horse, I think that some of the comments deriding Damascus are much over done. I have been doing some reading up on Dr. Fager, and was surprised by how measured Charles Hatton's assessment of him was; Mr. Hatton seems to be in the Damascus camp. Today a horse like Dr. Fager would be a god (bullet to a mile, four times {i think} under 2 mins. at a 1 1/4). Damacus was clearly longer (Belmont, Jockey Club Gold, etc.) and that use to count for a lot.
@711ATOM No offense but we really don't know how Fager would have fared beyond 10 furlongs. Thats because he never ran beyond 10 furlongs. The only horse to have ever benefited from employing a rabbit was Damascus. Thats because he was a great TB in his own right. But I would put my money on Dr. Fager vs Damascus going any distance in a eye to eye contest with no pacemakers employed! In my humble opinion,Fager was the prototypical match race running machine!
@BE109 I agree that Dr. Fager was the better horse, as Braulio Baeza said "Dr. Fager could beat Damascus even in his sleep." However he also said "He was a real free-running horse. I rated him a few times, but he resented it and he fought me." Physically going more than 10 furlongs isn't the problem (weight sure wouldn't be a problem!) but I think to much of a pace could be (I not talking about a rabbit, just some speed in moderate to big field).
I can't believe you never hear about great horses like Damascus. A good example is Colin. He retired undefeated 15-0, and even beat Man O'War's sire Fair Play!
I don't think a rabbit would work very well against Secretariat. Just to strong of a horse. Could you image a rabbit against him in the belmont. That rabbit horse would have died of a heart attack before he got to the 1 1/4 distance.(smile) The Dr. was truly a great horse. I am very impressed.
@rscarbro100 What made Fager great was also the thing that at times got him in trouble. That being his fierce will to win,and his idea that the lead was his to have. Sec was more layed back in that respect. But I think in a one on one contest at any distance up to 10 furlongs,Fager would give Big Red everything he wanted and then some. Trust me I rever both of them. Fager was the prototypical match racehorse.
@rscarbro100 A rabbit wouldn't have worked with Secretariat because he COULD be rated. Secretariat would not (and perhaps could not) run a 20.6 second quarter chasing a rabbit. Rabbits don't last 1 1/4 miles. Usually they don't last 6F.
Don't compare Dr Fager with horses like Damascus the Dr is one of the top 3 horses of all time no horse could beat Fager on a good day compare him with Secretariat, Kelso,Seattle Slew,MOW ,John Henry
Look at all those cars in the Aqueduct parking lot for the Gotham! For a KD sub-prep! Today you'd see that much only at the Belmont Stakes and even then only if the Triple Crown was on the line!
Completely agree. Dr. Fager was one of the greatest racehorses of all time - he carried weight, ran on all surfaces and at all distances, in all conditions - and was a CHAMPION! Damascus could never, ever, ever beat him straight up - NEVER!
@DrFagersGhost Damascus was a horse who had to have a fast pace,and a rank Fager(thus the reason for Hedevar) to beat Fager. One on one Damascus was forced to be the one to try to crack Fager,and that was something he never did. Was Damascus a bad horse? Of course not,remember Damascus was not dependent on a rabbit in his races without Fager. And Fager would have shrugged off the challenge of hedevar,if Damascus wasn't present ,no matter how fast they went!
In my opinion The Good Doctor was the best of both. If it hadn't been for the rabbit, he may have prevailed in all the 4 races, but that's part of racing. The fact is that they were both true champions, true superhorses
I respect everyones opinion on here,but in my opinion Dr Fager on dirt would have been extremely tough to deal with from 6 furlongs to 10 furlongs. That includes any horse you care to compare him to. He was a once in a lifetime kind of racehorse. One on one,I don't see many having much of a shot,remember a record of winning at a 10 furlongs(at age 3 and 4) in 1:59 and change,I believe he did it 3 times,set a NWR at 8 furlongs in 1:32 1/5,under 134 lbs.,capable of blazing 6 furlongsin 1:07,WOW!
Assuming nobody watched Secretariat's grass races(if they did my idea would be moot)how about a race scenario: Dr. Fager, Damascus, Tentam, Tiller, Secretariat, Prove Out, Poker, and John Henry are mandatory entrants. Do we let Slew in based on breeding? Yes. Surface: Turf-Firm
It occurred to me that two horses were overlooked.
Spectacular Bid...[1]Californian in 1:45 4/5 "easy score"[2]Strub in 1:57 4/5 "handy" [3] Malibu in 1:20 flat "easily" Hard to compare based on competition, but numbers were awesome.
The other was John Henry. Ran 1 1/2 miles in 2:24 on grass twice, under 2:24 twice including a 2:23 flat. Visually very similar to Fager except for late run, but once he hooked a horse, he had the same attitude. A real nasty SOB.
Well, everybody's right until the race is over. It's great to compare, but there is no comparison to Secretariat on grass. Watch his Man O' War or Canadian International...it is not how much he won by, the time, how he won...you have to focus on the WAY he ran on turf. On dirt, he moved with speed, rhythm and grace...aerobically awesome. On turf, add raw, frightening POWER as his action literally turned grass into a springboard. No horse could have beaten him on grass...no horse! ML
I agree that Fager would have been competitve with all except Secretariat on grass - there he wold have NO CHANCE. I respect your opinion re: the matchup with Forego, but you are underestimating Forego's tremendous speed, which would have given Fager fits, especially at shorter distances or sprints.
I depend very heavily on visuals. Have you seen Forego vs. Mr. Prospector at 7f? Blew by him under wraps. I would give Forego 50/50 shot with Fager at 7f. On grass, if son of Somethingroyal had run at 4, Dr. Fager would lose to him 100 percent of the time. Secretariat would have become, might even have been, greatest grass runner of all time. I'm sure you have seen the way he covered ground on grass...absolutely monstrous!
ML- I just watched the '74 Carter. Impressive, you're right, but I've persuaded you to change for 8 out of 10 to 50/50, so I'm making progress. Just kiddin', my friend.
I saw Secretariat (in person) in the Preakness and Belmont. 6/9/73 is the most amazing thing that I ever saw, and will always be. But, don't forget, Mr. Prospector was much better as a sire than Forego. LOL!
What do I know? I was touting War Pass and a triple crown winner and was certain that Big Brown would win the Belmont!
Hey OH, before I forget, thanks for pulling me in. I was sitting right next to you on 6/9/73...I think you were the guy that said they should geld Forego after the 7th race, which he won but nearly dismantled the gate. I think he was trying to eat it. ML from NY
I have always been impressed by Fager, Damascus, Buckpasser...but...I think Forego might have taken their measure 8 of 10 times, whether sprinting or going long.
I respect your opinion, but I think that, at their best, Dr. Fager would have beaten Forego 10 out of 10 times going any distance.
He would have been competitive with Secretariat, Man 'o War or any horse up to 1 1/8. Nevertheless, like I said, I respect your opinion and share your interest in racing!
I know what you were trying to say about Prospector...he was a better sire than he was a runner, you're right. But then, Forego did beat Dr. Patches (what a coincidence)at 7f after a 9 month layoff, in hand. ML
I just watched John Henry win the 1980 San Juan Capistrano on the lead at a mile and three quarters in a driving finish. He went the first 6 furlongs in 1:09 and 4/5.
IMO Fager might have been better sprinter than Secretariat. Secretariat had a well known habit of keeping is rear end against the back of the starting gate and he generally broke dead last and made blazing runs past the rest of the field as races progressed. Fager was a front runner so their styles were exactly opposite. Big Red's splits got faster every quarter including in his 31 length Belmont victory. Fager was great but I think Secretariat would beat him most times at 1 1/4 and 1 1/2.
Your are correct about their running styles. But Fager was much much more than a sprinter. Fager's style created distinct tactical problems for his opponents. Secretariat was not susceptable to rabbits. But in a 2 horse race,Fager in my mind had the advantage at 1 mile. Thats not far enough for Sec's big heart to show any advantage. At a 1 1/4,it is a lot closer,but remember that Fager ran that distance 3 times in 1:59 & change,therefore he has most definitely got a real chance. No shot a 12 F.
I have a question. The announcer said Dr. Fager wouldn't let anyone get away from him without him challenging that horse(esp. w/the rabbits). I think he said "rated". Does that mean Dr.Fager is little more than a well-primed missle on hooves, not listening to the jockey? Or did jockey have orders to let D.F. do as he pleases. I ask because I've heard stories of other great horses who seem to "think" about their run.
Dr. Fager was a very fierce competiter, his burning will to win was sometimes used against him. John Nerud struggled with the idea of just letting him go. Sometimes Dr. Fager would rate somewhat,this sometimes gave Nerud the hope he might relax and not chase rabbits. Finally, the only time it ever cost him was the 2 times Whiteley put Hedevar(who once held the world record for a mile) to run as a rabbit for Damascus. Otherwise no horse could survive the punishment Dr. Fager dished out.
I love to see the race by race beyers of both Dr. Fager and Secretariat. I've heard Secretariat got a 149 with his unbelievable Belmont win. An un heard of beyer. Myself...I love both horses....but I think Dr. Fager is a better horse. Imagine a match race between these two. I would bet my dough on Fager in that one.
technically speaking the good Doctor is undefeated right, take the rabbit out and the disqualification: as for someone said Seattle Slew will keep up with the docotor, as much as i like seattle slew i don't he go the fractions with the doctor.
I believe Dr. Fager was the ultimate match race horse. I do believe that Seattle Slew would have given him a rough time. In the end I think the "Doc" would have gone on to win. He was a freak!
"The Doc" was in my mind the perfect match race horse, no horse ever survived going with him for the lead,and that includes the great Damascus. I've had previous debates on this video in the past. He was the ultimate front running destroyer,he could go 10F in 1:59 & change, 7F 1;20 & change,& carry 130+lbs. This is my ideal racehorse.
You obviosly have a superb understanding of the game.I totally agree with your assessment of his match race abilities. I can only imagine him and Secretariat duelling it out at say a mile at the Belmont track.
Hypothetically, how do you compare the tactics employed to defeat Dr. Fager (Hedevar) compared to what was done to Smarty Jones in the Belmont?
Both horses have similar temperament, being dominant in nature(generally the great horses are the boss of the herd). I believe the tactics were very similar, if either horse was left to dictate things they would be impossible to catch. They presented huge tactical problems,1.If you go with them your cooked 2.If you lay back you can't catch them,hence the existence of the "rabbit"
Yes that would be a great race. Seattle Slew was a horse with the rare ability to go real fast early and just keep pouring it on. How about Swaps, he was just incredible in 1956. Swaps set multiple records, he was one of the great ones.
4/06 cont. The other Triple Crown winner I love, though never saw, was Count Fleet---a true freak of nature. But Slew was a monster. I've always said that one of the greatest races of all time would feature three horses at Belmont Park going a flat mile: Seattle Slew, Dr. Fager, and Swaps. Three true milers going at it with the sun shining and flags flying. What a horse race.
4/06 cont 2. You are the experts, what do you think of last pt of statement: "By the way, one horse who rarely gets mentioned in conversation as a deserving member of the upper pantheon of modern horses is Kelso. He was a magnificent racehorse.
Jockey Eddie Arcaro once told me that Kelso was the greatest racehorse he ever rode.
"What about Citation?" I asked him.
What Arcaro replied, word for word, was this: "Kelso would have beaten the s**t out of Citation!"
Hi, was reading comments and thought you'd like this fm 5/07 BH 'Talkin Horses w/Bill Nack Q/A: Q/ In a world of what if's who wins in Dr. Fager/Secretariat at a flat mile?A/I think Secretariat beats Dr. Fager doing anything. Most people don't realize how truly fast Secretariat was because he became a legend winning at classic distances, but Turcotte always said that Secretariat was the fastest pure running machine he'd ever been on, regardless of distances, cont.
bon 1042, I respectfully disaagree. I see a match any distance up to 1 1/4 atight one. I favor Dr Fager up to that distance,because he ran 1:59 and change routinely. At a mile well I don't see him losing at all. 1 1/4 it would be close, now at 1 1/2 I see secretariats large heart paying dividends. In my opinion both great race horses.
Makes sense to me, just passing on Bill Nack's comments fm 'Talkin Horses Q&A. What about fact that in the 1 1/2 mi Belmont in which they all thought he was going "too damn fast" his 3/4 mi time was 1:09 4/5 and the broke his own Derby time doing 1:59 at 1 1/4 mi?
I understand, who could fault Bill Nack for loving Secretariat. He spent a large amount of time following that horse around. His book on Secretariat is outstanding.
Those fractions in the Belmont were unreal. His daddy Bold Ruler,who was pressed by a rabbit named Bold Nero,he ran the 6 furlongs in a rapid time and was almost walking at the end. They feared Secretariat was reliving the sins of his father. 99.9 % of all racehorses would stop just like that. Unable to keep a steady supply of oxygen to the blood. He was an incredible race horse.
Wrong. Dr. Fager's pace and final figures are better than Secretariat's. Any horse(including multiple champion Damascus) who tried to go head and head with Dr. Fager...sealed their fate as eliminating themselves from the race. The only times the Dr. lost was when he was disqualified and in the other 3 races..he was in monstrous speed/pace duels in a route races. Otherwise he would have been 22 for 22. Secretariat was one of the best horses of all time.
I agree with you on all counts. Like I've said before I really believe that Dr. Fager would beat Secretariat at 1 1/4. At a mile, I just don't see Secretariat beating him. People now days do not understand what a freak this horse was. Nerud said hecould have run his world record mile race 1:30 and change. That was no idle boast, the chart said he won with something left. Baeza was actually easing him up,and he never moved a muscle on him. He said he had no idea he was going that fast.
Really? I think the Dr. was great but I still have to put him below Big Red. Why do you think he could be big red at a 1 1/4? Red raced only 1 time at the mile and 1/4. And his time was better then anything Fager ran as a 3yrold. Winning the Jersey Derby is nice but it's not exactly the KY Derby.Who knows how much better Secretariat would have been at 4? Maybe he could have broken ever world record from 6F to 2 miles.
Their times were very comparable. 1:59 and change. Dr. Fager did it in the Surburban H. against his great rival Damascus. Fager ran the 10 furlongs in 1:59 and change 3 times. 1 1/4 was not a problem for Fager. Now drop back to a mile (8 furlongs), I really believe Fager would beat Secretariat. I'm not saying Secretariat couldn't win, but I think he would have had a real tough time with Dr. Fager. Now at a 1 1/2 (12furlongs), I see Secretariat just rolling away. Both are Great Ones.
I think you're both right. I'm a Secretariat girl, but might as well face what is possible. What Nack says in Talkin'Horses Q/A's, the 2007 I think on Blood Horse, is people don't realize how fast Sec cld be bec he won at classic distances. In The Hopeful as 2 yr old he did a 1/4 in 22. To the question w/Ruffian, Nack thinks at 2 yrs at 5 1/2-6 she'd beat any horse, but as you say, ahh, add a 1/4 mile. But he thought he'd beat Dr. Fager doing anything, unless he doesn't know Dr.'s fractions(?!)
Well no one is wrong, this is of course just a discussion of great horses. I hold all 3 in high regard. In fact I believe Ruffian was the greatest racemare of all. She could have very well disposed of the "Good Doctor"and "Big Red". That is why it is so much fun to discuss these TB's. Bill Nack is of course entitled to his opinion,the point being someone else just as qualified,like Nerud,Baeza,Alan Porter could give just as convincing evidence for Dr. Fager.
2.cont. and that, in a match race against Dr. Fager, he would run head and head with him until the turn for home and then, with that giant heart pumping Secretariat home, would draw away to win it. The really great match race is Dr. Fager and Seattle Slew at a flat mile, Belmont Park, 126 pounds each..
I forgot to add the quotes in this one too. This is ALL Nack's comments, not my knowledge or opinion. I've just been learning a lot in past 2 yrs about racing. Barbaro's fight rekindled my love for Secretariat, Ruffian, etc.
Actually Secretariat was in a head and head duel, with Onion. Onion defeated Secretariat. Having seen Fager at Aqueduct and Atlantic City i believe no horse then or since could look him in the eye and beat him. You'll notice the great Buckpasser only passed the Doctor at the finish line of the race with the rabbit Hedevar. Nerud was foolish for accepting the race with Damascus when the rabbit was used. If Nerud couldn't teach him to rate then he shouldn't have taken the race.
I agree with you about Fager on all counts,but secretariat wasn't a 100% against Onion on that day. He had been battling a low grade fever coming up to the race. Later he inhaled Onion(and many others) in the Marlboro Cup. I do believe that Fager could beat anyone going head to head.
I always hated Damascus and Saint Laim because they win with rabbits. Sure they were great horses and all but i feel it didnt show their true ability if they need to *cheat* to win. I call it cheating even though its not. PS- The ten greatest horses since the 60s. Colts only no fillys. 1) Ghost Zapper 2) Secretariat 3) Seattle Slew 4) Affirmed 5) Spectacular Bid 6) Point Given 7) Cigar 8) Giants Causeway (Turf) 9) Sunday Silence 10) Mineshaft
Sorry to have to disagree with you but Secretariat is numero uno. You are too young to understand why and you Yanks always forget a little horse from CANADA called Northern Dancer. He retired with a remarkable record and became a world foundation sire.
You need to put Holy Bull in there somewhere...and don't tell me he didn't run enough because Ghostzapper rarely left the barn and Point Given didn't hold up.
Trust me Baeza was really trying to restrain Dr. Fager. But when you have guys coming out of the gate like a Quarterhorse race with the hootin and hollerin it was impossible to keep him back. The one thing that made him great was sometimes his downfall
Damascus raced 32 times, he had a rabbit in two of these races. Buckpasser who is rarely knocked for using rabbits had them in more of his races than Damascus and not just against Dr. Fager. Buckpasser had a rabbit, Poker in the Bowling Green, but Poker ended up winning the race since he liked the grass course better than Buckpasser.
I'm not saying rabbits should be outlawed. Also Buckpasser did use a rabbit (Great Power,I think),but that rabbit packed it in pretty early in the in the 2 races with Fager. Alas you know by now how I feel!
Damascus's trainer Frank Whiteley knew that Dr.Fager was unbeatable head to head. He put probably the best rabbit in history,One-time world record holder for a mile,in Hedavar to get Fagers blood up. The two times Damascus won he had his rabbit with him. When Damascus had to man up against "The Doc" he got it handed to him.
Dr Fager also lost to Successor as a two year old. Dr. Fager never raced over a 1 1/4, Damascus did. Buckpasser's connections used a rabbit against Dr Fager and finished ahead of Dr. Fager but criticism of Buckpasser is more muted than criticism of Damascus re: Rabbits. John Nerud used Bold Nero as a rabbit for his distance horse Gallant Man.
What does the fact Fager never went over 10 furlongs have to do with anything. As I said before one on one Fager would beat anything as far as you want to go! 10 furlongs in 1:59 & change tells me he could run all day.
One more comment. Dr. Fager's own trainer used a rabbit, Bold Nero when he was racing Gallant Man. Buckpasser used Great Power in his races. It is not "illegal" or "cheating."
I will level with you, I didn't know that about Fager or Buckpasser. Those are fair comments, and I appreciate them. I'm still learning about these great legends even now.
I just can't possibly agree with the fact that it is "legal" or not "cheating" to allow a pretender entry to create a false pace to possibly aid another horse.
That's all I'm going to say about that. Fans are robbed at times of great outcomes when this is allowed. Period. Take care.
Damascus was a great horse and one of the most durable in history. Damascus has been unfairly criticized about rabbits when actually in only 2 of his 32 races was Hedevar with him. Buckpasser's trainer too used a rabbit against Dr. Fager but such criticism is never leveled so strongly as it is against Damascus. Damascus was a great horse and perhaps those who don't know him so well should look at some of his races like the 1967 Travers. He was an AWESOME racehorse.
I agree, Damascus WAS a great horse, there's absolutely no denying that. After all, that's why I posted his '67 Travers!
You make a fair and valid point that Damascus has been the brunt of criticism for rabbits in the sport. It was/is indeed unfair to scapegoat him. I myself was more disappointed than angry that a rabbit was used to create a blazing bait for Dr. Fager while Damascus ran comfortably near the back, is all. continued...
You seem to like Damascus better, I respect that. I like Dr. Fager AND, surprise, Damascus as well. No problemo at all.
Just look how their '67 Gotham turned out, without a rabbit! An absolute CLASSIC! That's the point I was aiming to make, nothing more.
One can only imagine how much better those 2 races would have been if they would have been allowed to battle it out without any rabbits. That's all I'm trying to say.
Maybe this is a rather obvious point, but did you notice in the Gotham there WAS a rabbit? Neither Damascus, who was closer to the pace, or Dr. Fager, contested the early speed there. Rabbits are for horses who must have the lead, and to keep the early pace honest, instead of allowing front runners to slow the pace down and save themselves for the stretch with a rail trip.
And my point in my previous post is that clearly Dr. Fager and Damascus could rate, so what good would a rabbit do, unless the jockey took the bait (unlikely with a known stablemate in the race)?
Bill Shoemaker blamed himself for the Gotham Loss because Damascus moved to a certain spot in the race and SHoemaker was said to have thought what the hell leave him there. He also could not urge Damascus with a whip in the race (on one side) in the stretch because of the proximity of Dr. Fager. .
Bill Shoemaker also said that while he was riding Damascus, the colt would never lose to Dr. Fager again. He was right and he was quoted as saying Damascus could have won the 1967 Woodward without a rabbit.
Dr Fager had an Achilles Heel, he was a fierce competitor which meant he could not be rated. Horses like Secretariat and Seattle Slew could be rated against rabbits. Shoemaker said Damascus was great because he thought he was great. Any jockey theoretically can be taken off a horse, it happens all the time but the jockeys generally are good sports and say the horse is great. Shoemaker chose to ride Damascus because he was impressed with him.
You are missing the point, put simply one on one Fager would eat up Damascus anytime at any distance. As for Jockeys not always saying what they believe for fear of losing the mount, you are kidding yourself if you don't think it isn't true,I've seen it many times.
It was said by a racing columnist that Damascus needed a race to be run a certain way to win but added so did Dr. Fager. Dr. Fager couldn't win when the pace wasn't going his way and couldn't be rated. Seattle Slew would have had Hedevar for breakfast and still win over any distance.
Once again you missed the point I'm trying to make, FAGER DID EAT HEDEVAR FOR BREAKFAST. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE SLEW WOULD NOT HAD TO DEAL WITH A CLOSING TYPE HORSE OF THE CALIBER OF DAMASCUS. ALSO FAGER DID SHOW THE ABILITY TO RATE ON MANY OCCASIONS,THE STATEMENT THAT HE COULDN'T RATE IS JUST NOT RIGHT. LOOK AT THE GOTHAM VIDEO THAT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A HORSE RATING JUST OFF THE PACE. NOTE HEDEVAR IS NOT THERE, GUESS WHAT THE RESULT WAS?
My main point is that Dr. Fager was only susceptable to one horse, Damascus,when his rabbit was entered. Every other race in Fager's career it just made no difference to him at all. He just ran them straight into the ground. Meaning Damascus was the only horse who ever had a chance to beat him. No other horse could even pray that they had a slight chance against him. THAT IS A FACT! Successor beat him at 2, if you think in your right mind that he was better than Fager you outta of your mind.
Damascus wasn't the only horse to beat him. Successor was. Successor had health issues and didn't run well after 1966. I wouldn't dismiss him as mediocre so quickly. Successor was good enough to wrest the 2 year old championship from Dr. Fager and he deserves some credit for that!
Interestingly Shoemaker rode Dr Fager in that race(he actually rode him a couple times). Nerud and Shoemaker had a good working relationship. Strangely Shoemaker didn't fit the horse. According to Nerud he wasn't strong enough to control Fager. Ycaza and Baeza were better fits for Fager. Shoemaker was one of the very best ,but not on "The Doc".
Buckpasser also finished ahead of Dr. Fager. In Reality won via a disqualification in the Jersey. John Rotz praised Dr. Fager and said "he was not unbeatable but he was great."
Mr.Rotz got the oppurtunity to ride "The Doc" once. After just inhaling Kissin George(a pretty good sprinter himself), Rotz commented that horse was a freak! Need I say more?
Damascus ran not his usual race in the Gotham. He was rank and Shoemaker wanted him to relax--he was closer to the lead than anticipated by Shoemaker who said "what the hell leave him there" (according to post race interview). Ycaza and Dr. Fager came on the outside and Shoemaker couldn't whip Damascus right handed. Shoemaker blamed himself for the loss.
My point about Seattle Slew is that for him and horses like Spectacular Bid, Count Fleet, and Ruffian, rabbits had no effect. Dr. Fager was effected by them. Spectacular Bid and Seattle Slew did face high calibre horses in their careers also. Seattle Slew ran longer distances than Dr. Fager. I think Dr. Fager and Damascus were both great. Damascus could run distances, Dr. Fager had blazing speed and could run on the lead.
Once again I must say Dr. Fager was in numerous races with wicked fractions, but only the Damascus/Hedevar entry ever really bothered him. That tells me that Damascus was his only real rival(with the rabbit of course). Otherwise "The Doc" just sailed on down the lane. Ruffian was so far ahead in most of her races a rabbit wouldn't have done any good. It's kinda hard to compare horses who never ran against each other.
After Damascus was through racing and no longer a source of huge income to Shoemaker, Shoemaker would visit Damascus at Claiborne. Riders like their horses and admire them, that's a big reason they ride. And if they are taken off a horse they blame the trainer but still admire the horse. Maybe Shoemaker was impressed with Damascus and liked him. I am not that cynical about Shoemaker saying nice things because he wanted to keep riding Damascus and get money.
I did not say that Shoe didn't admire Damascus(hell I admire him to) what I said was that in the racing business those jocks and trainers always say what they think the owners want to hear. Do you really think that Whiteley would have kept Shoe on Damascus if he had said he needed the rabbit? I hate to tell you this, you need to really look at the 4 races they ran against each other.
Damascus was at his peak from the time he won the American Derby to after the JC Gold Cup. Dr. Fager's connections chose not to run him against Damascus from the Gotham to the Woodward Stakes. Dr. Fager was at his peak in 1968, Damascus in 1967. Dr. Fager lost the two year old championship when he was beated by Successor.
You need to get in touch with reality,look at the one one meetings. Against a horse of the caliber of Fager, Damascus just didn't have the running style to stay with Fager. Remember every horse who tried to go with Fager got fried, and that is a fact,look it up!
I'm very aware of who Damascus was, do you not see the plain truth,you just said it yourself,that Damascus only had Hedevar in 2 of his 32 career starts. Wouldn't you know,Dr Fager was in both races,I believe that is proof that Whiteley knew he needed a rabbit to beat Dr. Fager.
In a match race Dr. Fager wins.....you do what you need to do to win the race and if that involved entering a rabbit so be it...not Whitely's fault the DF wouldn't rate.
That is very true,all good trainers try to put their horses in the right spots. Also they learn about every horse in their barn. Knowing how a horse likes a race to set up for them(pace,position,opposition,and whether to use a rabbit,etc.). It has always been that way.
Glad you liked it. Yeah, The Doctor was better. Rabbits...ugh...I don't even wanna get started. I've said my piece already, but I totally agree with you. Take care.
Wow! That was great. Do you have the 1962 Travers with Jaipur and Ridan? That was one of the best races I ever saw, but I can't find it on YouTube....
A tail swish is understood to be a signal to members of the herd behind that the tail swisher is all out, slowing down, about to stop. You will often see it near the end of a race when a rider uses the whip to ask for a bit more horse when there is no more.
What you say about tail swishing is correct. But I've seen horses throw their tail up when hit with the stick,those horses weren't tired,they just resented getting hit. Some horses will just prop when hit with the stick. Fager threw up his tail every time baeza hit him,he just detested the stick. I had a mare at the track who would do all these things if hit. In workouts no less.
You are most welcome. I'm very happy that you enjoyed it. The Doctor was a superb horse and it's comments like these that keep me going on with this. I will admit, I've been thinking of packing it in, but don't know if I can! I love horses far too much! Finding interesting races and videos can be tough at times, and time-consuming as well. Thanks again for your support. Take care.
Yep, when used to tire an opposing stable's rival, they can ruin possible history in the making. It robs the fans of their money's worth also. Pacers I don't mind , but rabbits should be outlawed. I hate 'em too! Take care.
I never realized how great a horse Dr. Fager was. Even when Hedevar was in there to soften him up on the front end, he was still running gamely down the stretch. And with 135 pounds!
Damascus was a great horse but not near as good as Dr. Fager. Dr. Fager would have won all 4 meetings but both times Damascus won his owner had to put a rabbit, Hedavar in to tiere Dr. Fager. The 2 times they raced head to head, no contest, Dr. Fager wins easy!!! Dr. Fager #3 of all time
MrMiginsal 4 months ago
According to the commentator, Hedevar was trying to "cook" the Doc by setting a 6f fraction of 1:09 1/5 at the 10f Woodward. Secretariat ran the same distance at the Belmont in 1:09 4/5, and he still had another 6 furlongs to go! The latter also clocked a 1 1/4 time of 1:59 flat at that race (beating his Derby time). This is not to take anything away from Dr. Fager, who was an absolute monster at shorter distances, and THE best miler of all time.
SECby31 4 months ago
I don't believe in "rabbits" , especially in a race of 1967 for HOY. If a horse is only in there for the intention of "cooking" another horse,that horse shouldn't be in the race, period.
funshipM174 4 months ago
@funshipM174 I politely disagree. If we remove "rabbits", then we would also have to re-examine jockey strategy, such as "floating horses wide" and "pinning horses down on the hedge" and "boxing horses in." The end result is which horse will win under the allowed rules. Even "Match Races" really do not prove which horse is better. I appreciate these two horses as equally great, now. In the '60s, I chose sides. Now, I just marvel at the greatness we saw for those years. Thank you.
redbrian3655 4 months ago
Wonderful video, thanks for posting.
evyn10014 9 months ago
in my humble opinion Damascus was the better of the two.
Tigertail1717 9 months ago
@Tigertail1717 Mr. Charles Hatton agreed with you. Fantastic horse.
711ATOM 7 months ago
I saw the good Doctor run at Rockingham Park in Salem, NH. Set a track record
in the easiest way. GREAT horse!
BiggieJack 1 year ago
While I agree that Dr. Fager was the better horse, I think that some of the comments deriding Damascus are much over done. I have been doing some reading up on Dr. Fager, and was surprised by how measured Charles Hatton's assessment of him was; Mr. Hatton seems to be in the Damascus camp. Today a horse like Dr. Fager would be a god (bullet to a mile, four times {i think} under 2 mins. at a 1 1/4). Damacus was clearly longer (Belmont, Jockey Club Gold, etc.) and that use to count for a lot.
711ATOM 1 year ago
@711ATOM No offense but we really don't know how Fager would have fared beyond 10 furlongs. Thats because he never ran beyond 10 furlongs. The only horse to have ever benefited from employing a rabbit was Damascus. Thats because he was a great TB in his own right. But I would put my money on Dr. Fager vs Damascus going any distance in a eye to eye contest with no pacemakers employed! In my humble opinion,Fager was the prototypical match race running machine!
BE109 7 months ago
@BE109 I agree that Dr. Fager was the better horse, as Braulio Baeza said "Dr. Fager could beat Damascus even in his sleep." However he also said "He was a real free-running horse. I rated him a few times, but he resented it and he fought me." Physically going more than 10 furlongs isn't the problem (weight sure wouldn't be a problem!) but I think to much of a pace could be (I not talking about a rabbit, just some speed in moderate to big field).
711ATOM 5 months ago
Dr. Fager was BY FAR the better horse. Damascus needed help from rabbits to win. I call that cheating.
TwoSlew 1 year ago
this is great footage; thank you for posting!
TheJanitb 1 year ago
my grandpa's fave jockey was shoemaker!! a real great jockey!!
2coolveronica96 1 year ago
very nice-- Damascus was the first thoroughbred I remember watching on television.
lpvcrcd 1 year ago
Successor was a very nice horse. Eddie Neloy really liked him. Of course these 2 were all time greats. I was partial to Fager as were many.
STU676 1 year ago
A couple of beasts.
bg147 1 year ago
I can't believe you never hear about great horses like Damascus. A good example is Colin. He retired undefeated 15-0, and even beat Man O'War's sire Fair Play!
BackstretchUnderdog 1 year ago
my mare somewhere in her pedegree has damuscus yaya and man o war and war admiral and many more!!
sabrinaburdynski 2 years ago
I don't think a rabbit would work very well against Secretariat. Just to strong of a horse. Could you image a rabbit against him in the belmont. That rabbit horse would have died of a heart attack before he got to the 1 1/4 distance.(smile) The Dr. was truly a great horse. I am very impressed.
rscarbro100 2 years ago
@rscarbro100 What made Fager great was also the thing that at times got him in trouble. That being his fierce will to win,and his idea that the lead was his to have. Sec was more layed back in that respect. But I think in a one on one contest at any distance up to 10 furlongs,Fager would give Big Red everything he wanted and then some. Trust me I rever both of them. Fager was the prototypical match racehorse.
BE109 1 year ago
@rscarbro100 A rabbit wouldn't have worked with Secretariat because he COULD be rated. Secretariat would not (and perhaps could not) run a 20.6 second quarter chasing a rabbit. Rabbits don't last 1 1/4 miles. Usually they don't last 6F.
sl7293 1 year ago
awesome! Thanks.
ereaven 2 years ago
Don't compare Dr Fager with horses like Damascus the Dr is one of the top 3 horses of all time no horse could beat Fager on a good day compare him with Secretariat, Kelso,Seattle Slew,MOW ,John Henry
seldenkid 2 years ago
Look at all those cars in the Aqueduct parking lot for the Gotham! For a KD sub-prep! Today you'd see that much only at the Belmont Stakes and even then only if the Triple Crown was on the line!
WhiteCamry 2 years ago
That just goes to show you that horse racing can draw huge crowds, but those involved in the sport today have ruined it due to tremendous greed.
dahoss65 2 years ago
Sans rabbit, the good Dr. wins every time.
all66books 2 years ago
Completely agree. Dr. Fager was one of the greatest racehorses of all time - he carried weight, ran on all surfaces and at all distances, in all conditions - and was a CHAMPION! Damascus could never, ever, ever beat him straight up - NEVER!
DrFagersGhost 2 years ago
@DrFagersGhost Damascus was a horse who had to have a fast pace,and a rank Fager(thus the reason for Hedevar) to beat Fager. One on one Damascus was forced to be the one to try to crack Fager,and that was something he never did. Was Damascus a bad horse? Of course not,remember Damascus was not dependent on a rabbit in his races without Fager. And Fager would have shrugged off the challenge of hedevar,if Damascus wasn't present ,no matter how fast they went!
BE109 1 year ago
In my opinion The Good Doctor was the best of both. If it hadn't been for the rabbit, he may have prevailed in all the 4 races, but that's part of racing. The fact is that they were both true champions, true superhorses
lengua92 2 years ago
i own Damascus's grand daughter her name is dreyley shes a 16.1 hh tb chestnut shes a trail horse i just looked at her pedigree
ashellygirl 3 years ago
Haha I have a Damascus great grandson
PandoraJadedBox 2 years ago
I respect everyones opinion on here,but in my opinion Dr Fager on dirt would have been extremely tough to deal with from 6 furlongs to 10 furlongs. That includes any horse you care to compare him to. He was a once in a lifetime kind of racehorse. One on one,I don't see many having much of a shot,remember a record of winning at a 10 furlongs(at age 3 and 4) in 1:59 and change,I believe he did it 3 times,set a NWR at 8 furlongs in 1:32 1/5,under 134 lbs.,capable of blazing 6 furlongsin 1:07,WOW!
BE109 3 years ago
Assuming nobody watched Secretariat's grass races(if they did my idea would be moot)how about a race scenario: Dr. Fager, Damascus, Tentam, Tiller, Secretariat, Prove Out, Poker, and John Henry are mandatory entrants. Do we let Slew in based on breeding? Yes. Surface: Turf-Firm
Dist: 1 1/2 miles. Weights: 132 all. Course: Widener, Belmont. [Why Poker? Prove Out? Pace.] Anybody interested?
Scenario should include internal fractions, position and path each horse at standard POC's
smthmort 3 years ago
Great commentary. Monsters, all!!!
bbmtge 3 years ago
It occurred to me that two horses were overlooked.
Spectacular Bid...[1]Californian in 1:45 4/5 "easy score"[2]Strub in 1:57 4/5 "handy" [3] Malibu in 1:20 flat "easily" Hard to compare based on competition, but numbers were awesome.
The other was John Henry. Ran 1 1/2 miles in 2:24 on grass twice, under 2:24 twice including a 2:23 flat. Visually very similar to Fager except for late run, but once he hooked a horse, he had the same attitude. A real nasty SOB.
smthmort 3 years ago
Well, everybody's right until the race is over. It's great to compare, but there is no comparison to Secretariat on grass. Watch his Man O' War or Canadian International...it is not how much he won by, the time, how he won...you have to focus on the WAY he ran on turf. On dirt, he moved with speed, rhythm and grace...aerobically awesome. On turf, add raw, frightening POWER as his action literally turned grass into a springboard. No horse could have beaten him on grass...no horse! ML
smthmort 3 years ago
I agree that Fager would have been competitve with all except Secretariat on grass - there he wold have NO CHANCE. I respect your opinion re: the matchup with Forego, but you are underestimating Forego's tremendous speed, which would have given Fager fits, especially at shorter distances or sprints.
smthmort 3 years ago
To: OH
From: ML Smith
I depend very heavily on visuals. Have you seen Forego vs. Mr. Prospector at 7f? Blew by him under wraps. I would give Forego 50/50 shot with Fager at 7f. On grass, if son of Somethingroyal had run at 4, Dr. Fager would lose to him 100 percent of the time. Secretariat would have become, might even have been, greatest grass runner of all time. I'm sure you have seen the way he covered ground on grass...absolutely monstrous!
smthmort 3 years ago
ML- I just watched the '74 Carter. Impressive, you're right, but I've persuaded you to change for 8 out of 10 to 50/50, so I'm making progress. Just kiddin', my friend.
I saw Secretariat (in person) in the Preakness and Belmont. 6/9/73 is the most amazing thing that I ever saw, and will always be. But, don't forget, Mr. Prospector was much better as a sire than Forego. LOL!
What do I know? I was touting War Pass and a triple crown winner and was certain that Big Brown would win the Belmont!
OHRaceFan 3 years ago
Hey OH, before I forget, thanks for pulling me in. I was sitting right next to you on 6/9/73...I think you were the guy that said they should geld Forego after the 7th race, which he won but nearly dismantled the gate. I think he was trying to eat it. ML from NY
smthmort 3 years ago
I have always been impressed by Fager, Damascus, Buckpasser...but...I think Forego might have taken their measure 8 of 10 times, whether sprinting or going long.
smthmort 3 years ago
I respect your opinion, but I think that, at their best, Dr. Fager would have beaten Forego 10 out of 10 times going any distance.
He would have been competitive with Secretariat, Man 'o War or any horse up to 1 1/8. Nevertheless, like I said, I respect your opinion and share your interest in racing!
OHRaceFan 3 years ago
I know what you were trying to say about Prospector...he was a better sire than he was a runner, you're right. But then, Forego did beat Dr. Patches (what a coincidence)at 7f after a 9 month layoff, in hand. ML
smthmort 3 years ago
I just watched John Henry win the 1980 San Juan Capistrano on the lead at a mile and three quarters in a driving finish. He went the first 6 furlongs in 1:09 and 4/5.
aleesa4 3 years ago
Great video. Thanks!
jhordanian 3 years ago
Wish these races hadn't been before my time. Magnificent. Johnnie Nerud -- what a horseman, what a gentleman. One of the nicest men I ever met.
idleruler 3 years ago
Yeah, I knew about Kelso. I was answering the question about the other horses of the 60s.
I like Northern Dancer too.
What a great race to have been there watching Dr Fager, Buckpasser, and Damascus race.
Great video
bronco3250 3 years ago
IMO Fager might have been better sprinter than Secretariat. Secretariat had a well known habit of keeping is rear end against the back of the starting gate and he generally broke dead last and made blazing runs past the rest of the field as races progressed. Fager was a front runner so their styles were exactly opposite. Big Red's splits got faster every quarter including in his 31 length Belmont victory. Fager was great but I think Secretariat would beat him most times at 1 1/4 and 1 1/2.
UTubeMeTubeWeTube 3 years ago
Your are correct about their running styles. But Fager was much much more than a sprinter. Fager's style created distinct tactical problems for his opponents. Secretariat was not susceptable to rabbits. But in a 2 horse race,Fager in my mind had the advantage at 1 mile. Thats not far enough for Sec's big heart to show any advantage. At a 1 1/4,it is a lot closer,but remember that Fager ran that distance 3 times in 1:59 & change,therefore he has most definitely got a real chance. No shot a 12 F.
BE109 3 years ago
I agree with you on Sec winning at a 1 1/2,but at a 1 1/4 I think it would have a close fought deal,finish time probably in 1:59 & change.
BE109 3 years ago
yes dr frager had the ability to beat big red it would have fun to watch
johnnysmash416 3 years ago
Wow, fager was some kind of freak. The only way you could defeat this headstrong beast was with a rabbit!
jmplays44 3 years ago
I have a question. The announcer said Dr. Fager wouldn't let anyone get away from him without him challenging that horse(esp. w/the rabbits). I think he said "rated". Does that mean Dr.Fager is little more than a well-primed missle on hooves, not listening to the jockey? Or did jockey have orders to let D.F. do as he pleases. I ask because I've heard stories of other great horses who seem to "think" about their run.
Szheherazad 4 years ago
Dr. Fager was a very fierce competiter, his burning will to win was sometimes used against him. John Nerud struggled with the idea of just letting him go. Sometimes Dr. Fager would rate somewhat,this sometimes gave Nerud the hope he might relax and not chase rabbits. Finally, the only time it ever cost him was the 2 times Whiteley put Hedevar(who once held the world record for a mile) to run as a rabbit for Damascus. Otherwise no horse could survive the punishment Dr. Fager dished out.
BE109 3 years ago
The 60's.....what an incredible decade for
horse racing!
OHRaceFan 4 years ago
I couldnt agree more. The game has really declined. Fager, Damascus, Buckpasser. Great era for the game
STU676 4 years ago
There was another horse that ran in the sixties before them. He was one of the greatest.
cf1934 3 years ago
Kelso?
bronco3250 3 years ago
Go to the Kelso video on you tube,and you will hear about Kelso.
cf1934 3 years ago
I love to see the race by race beyers of both Dr. Fager and Secretariat. I've heard Secretariat got a 149 with his unbelievable Belmont win. An un heard of beyer. Myself...I love both horses....but I think Dr. Fager is a better horse. Imagine a match race between these two. I would bet my dough on Fager in that one.
valenzuala 4 years ago
technically speaking the good Doctor is undefeated right, take the rabbit out and the disqualification: as for someone said Seattle Slew will keep up with the docotor, as much as i like seattle slew i don't he go the fractions with the doctor.
ALYSHEBANDTHEBID 4 years ago
I believe Dr. Fager was the ultimate match race horse. I do believe that Seattle Slew would have given him a rough time. In the end I think the "Doc" would have gone on to win. He was a freak!
BE109 4 years ago
This is my first look at the great Doctor and I am truly impressed. As
fruglescot 4 years ago
"The Doc" was in my mind the perfect match race horse, no horse ever survived going with him for the lead,and that includes the great Damascus. I've had previous debates on this video in the past. He was the ultimate front running destroyer,he could go 10F in 1:59 & change, 7F 1;20 & change,& carry 130+lbs. This is my ideal racehorse.
BE109 4 years ago
You obviosly have a superb understanding of the game.I totally agree with your assessment of his match race abilities. I can only imagine him and Secretariat duelling it out at say a mile at the Belmont track.
Hypothetically, how do you compare the tactics employed to defeat Dr. Fager (Hedevar) compared to what was done to Smarty Jones in the Belmont?
fruglescot 4 years ago
Both horses have similar temperament, being dominant in nature(generally the great horses are the boss of the herd). I believe the tactics were very similar, if either horse was left to dictate things they would be impossible to catch. They presented huge tactical problems,1.If you go with them your cooked 2.If you lay back you can't catch them,hence the existence of the "rabbit"
BE109 4 years ago
A match race between Dr Fager & Secretariat would be sensational! I wouldn't wager on that one! Two incredible racehorses!
BE109 4 years ago
Let's throw Seattle Slew in the mix.....what a race that would be!
JimSpoor 4 years ago
Yes that would be a great race. Seattle Slew was a horse with the rare ability to go real fast early and just keep pouring it on. How about Swaps, he was just incredible in 1956. Swaps set multiple records, he was one of the great ones.
BE109 4 years ago
and this fm 4/06 'Talkin Horses w/Nack
Q/ Apart from Secretariat, of course, which Triple Crown winner do you consider the best?
Nack:I think Seattle Slew was one of the greatest racehorses of all time, and I suspect that he would have given Secretariat his greatest competition.
bon1042 4 years ago
4/06 cont. The other Triple Crown winner I love, though never saw, was Count Fleet---a true freak of nature. But Slew was a monster. I've always said that one of the greatest races of all time would feature three horses at Belmont Park going a flat mile: Seattle Slew, Dr. Fager, and Swaps. Three true milers going at it with the sun shining and flags flying. What a horse race.
bon1042 4 years ago
4/06 cont 2. You are the experts, what do you think of last pt of statement: "By the way, one horse who rarely gets mentioned in conversation as a deserving member of the upper pantheon of modern horses is Kelso. He was a magnificent racehorse.
Jockey Eddie Arcaro once told me that Kelso was the greatest racehorse he ever rode.
"What about Citation?" I asked him.
What Arcaro replied, word for word, was this: "Kelso would have beaten the s**t out of Citation!"
bon1042 4 years ago
Hi, was reading comments and thought you'd like this fm 5/07 BH 'Talkin Horses w/Bill Nack Q/A: Q/ In a world of what if's who wins in Dr. Fager/Secretariat at a flat mile?A/I think Secretariat beats Dr. Fager doing anything. Most people don't realize how truly fast Secretariat was because he became a legend winning at classic distances, but Turcotte always said that Secretariat was the fastest pure running machine he'd ever been on, regardless of distances, cont.
bon1042 4 years ago
bon 1042, I respectfully disaagree. I see a match any distance up to 1 1/4 atight one. I favor Dr Fager up to that distance,because he ran 1:59 and change routinely. At a mile well I don't see him losing at all. 1 1/4 it would be close, now at 1 1/2 I see secretariats large heart paying dividends. In my opinion both great race horses.
BE109 4 years ago
Makes sense to me, just passing on Bill Nack's comments fm 'Talkin Horses Q&A. What about fact that in the 1 1/2 mi Belmont in which they all thought he was going "too damn fast" his 3/4 mi time was 1:09 4/5 and the broke his own Derby time doing 1:59 at 1 1/4 mi?
bon1042 4 years ago
I understand, who could fault Bill Nack for loving Secretariat. He spent a large amount of time following that horse around. His book on Secretariat is outstanding.
BE109 4 years ago
Those fractions in the Belmont were unreal. His daddy Bold Ruler,who was pressed by a rabbit named Bold Nero,he ran the 6 furlongs in a rapid time and was almost walking at the end. They feared Secretariat was reliving the sins of his father. 99.9 % of all racehorses would stop just like that. Unable to keep a steady supply of oxygen to the blood. He was an incredible race horse.
BE109 4 years ago
Wrong. Dr. Fager's pace and final figures are better than Secretariat's. Any horse(including multiple champion Damascus) who tried to go head and head with Dr. Fager...sealed their fate as eliminating themselves from the race. The only times the Dr. lost was when he was disqualified and in the other 3 races..he was in monstrous speed/pace duels in a route races. Otherwise he would have been 22 for 22. Secretariat was one of the best horses of all time.
valenzuala 4 years ago
I agree with you on all counts. Like I've said before I really believe that Dr. Fager would beat Secretariat at 1 1/4. At a mile, I just don't see Secretariat beating him. People now days do not understand what a freak this horse was. Nerud said hecould have run his world record mile race 1:30 and change. That was no idle boast, the chart said he won with something left. Baeza was actually easing him up,and he never moved a muscle on him. He said he had no idea he was going that fast.
BE109 4 years ago
Really? I think the Dr. was great but I still have to put him below Big Red. Why do you think he could be big red at a 1 1/4? Red raced only 1 time at the mile and 1/4. And his time was better then anything Fager ran as a 3yrold. Winning the Jersey Derby is nice but it's not exactly the KY Derby.Who knows how much better Secretariat would have been at 4? Maybe he could have broken ever world record from 6F to 2 miles.
fayjhi 4 years ago
Their times were very comparable. 1:59 and change. Dr. Fager did it in the Surburban H. against his great rival Damascus. Fager ran the 10 furlongs in 1:59 and change 3 times. 1 1/4 was not a problem for Fager. Now drop back to a mile (8 furlongs), I really believe Fager would beat Secretariat. I'm not saying Secretariat couldn't win, but I think he would have had a real tough time with Dr. Fager. Now at a 1 1/2 (12furlongs), I see Secretariat just rolling away. Both are Great Ones.
BE109 4 years ago
I think you're both right. I'm a Secretariat girl, but might as well face what is possible. What Nack says in Talkin'Horses Q/A's, the 2007 I think on Blood Horse, is people don't realize how fast Sec cld be bec he won at classic distances. In The Hopeful as 2 yr old he did a 1/4 in 22. To the question w/Ruffian, Nack thinks at 2 yrs at 5 1/2-6 she'd beat any horse, but as you say, ahh, add a 1/4 mile. But he thought he'd beat Dr. Fager doing anything, unless he doesn't know Dr.'s fractions(?!)
bon1042 4 years ago
Well no one is wrong, this is of course just a discussion of great horses. I hold all 3 in high regard. In fact I believe Ruffian was the greatest racemare of all. She could have very well disposed of the "Good Doctor"and "Big Red". That is why it is so much fun to discuss these TB's. Bill Nack is of course entitled to his opinion,the point being someone else just as qualified,like Nerud,Baeza,Alan Porter could give just as convincing evidence for Dr. Fager.
BE109 4 years ago
2.cont. and that, in a match race against Dr. Fager, he would run head and head with him until the turn for home and then, with that giant heart pumping Secretariat home, would draw away to win it. The really great match race is Dr. Fager and Seattle Slew at a flat mile, Belmont Park, 126 pounds each..
How do you see that one?
bon1042 4 years ago
I forgot to add the quotes in this one too. This is ALL Nack's comments, not my knowledge or opinion. I've just been learning a lot in past 2 yrs about racing. Barbaro's fight rekindled my love for Secretariat, Ruffian, etc.
bon1042 4 years ago
Actually Secretariat was in a head and head duel, with Onion. Onion defeated Secretariat. Having seen Fager at Aqueduct and Atlantic City i believe no horse then or since could look him in the eye and beat him. You'll notice the great Buckpasser only passed the Doctor at the finish line of the race with the rabbit Hedevar. Nerud was foolish for accepting the race with Damascus when the rabbit was used. If Nerud couldn't teach him to rate then he shouldn't have taken the race.
jesseweinstock 4 years ago
I agree with you about Fager on all counts,but secretariat wasn't a 100% against Onion on that day. He had been battling a low grade fever coming up to the race. Later he inhaled Onion(and many others) in the Marlboro Cup. I do believe that Fager could beat anyone going head to head.
BE109 4 years ago
Great Vid!
xxxkolja 4 years ago
no one horse could beat dr fager doing ANYTHING
ruffchamp1 4 years ago
You are right on the mark! I've always considered Dr. Fager the greatest pure racehorse in history!
BE109 4 years ago
grkplayer6 4 years ago
grkplayer
Sorry to have to disagree with you but Secretariat is numero uno. You are too young to understand why and you Yanks always forget a little horse from CANADA called Northern Dancer. He retired with a remarkable record and became a world foundation sire.
fruglescot 4 years ago
You need to put Holy Bull in there somewhere...and don't tell me he didn't run enough because Ghostzapper rarely left the barn and Point Given didn't hold up.
JimSpoor 4 years ago
Two great horses that actually raced, with high weights, as close as 16 days between races. I don't think we'll ever see anymore.
ahsans786 4 years ago
Yes, VERY doubtful that horses like that will come along again anytime soon.
Thanks for watching.
cf1970 4 years ago
@ahsans786 If they ever stop all the chemicals.
LastTree 11 months ago
Looks to me like a below par ride on Dr.Fager.
You can see that the jockey does not even try to withhold him and even went onto the early pace willingly, suicide.
Thus, I cannot say that the race is a true comparison, does not take anything from Damnascus however.
bajesax 4 years ago
Trust me Baeza was really trying to restrain Dr. Fager. But when you have guys coming out of the gate like a Quarterhorse race with the hootin and hollerin it was impossible to keep him back. The one thing that made him great was sometimes his downfall
BE109 4 years ago
Dr. Fager came over on In Reality and the rest of the field. Ycaza was blamed. It was a really clear case of a disqualification being necessary.
sandycat123 4 years ago
Respectfully, that DQ was shaky to say the least,but oh well it happened.
BE109 4 years ago
All great horses. Time when horseracing was the BEST.
girlomanypassions 4 years ago
Damascus raced 32 times, he had a rabbit in two of these races. Buckpasser who is rarely knocked for using rabbits had them in more of his races than Damascus and not just against Dr. Fager. Buckpasser had a rabbit, Poker in the Bowling Green, but Poker ended up winning the race since he liked the grass course better than Buckpasser.
sandycat123 4 years ago
I'm not saying rabbits should be outlawed. Also Buckpasser did use a rabbit (Great Power,I think),but that rabbit packed it in pretty early in the in the 2 races with Fager. Alas you know by now how I feel!
BE109 4 years ago
Damascus's trainer Frank Whiteley knew that Dr.Fager was unbeatable head to head. He put probably the best rabbit in history,One-time world record holder for a mile,in Hedavar to get Fagers blood up. The two times Damascus won he had his rabbit with him. When Damascus had to man up against "The Doc" he got it handed to him.
BE109 4 years ago
Dr Fager also lost to Successor as a two year old. Dr. Fager never raced over a 1 1/4, Damascus did. Buckpasser's connections used a rabbit against Dr Fager and finished ahead of Dr. Fager but criticism of Buckpasser is more muted than criticism of Damascus re: Rabbits. John Nerud used Bold Nero as a rabbit for his distance horse Gallant Man.
sandycat123 4 years ago
What does the fact Fager never went over 10 furlongs have to do with anything. As I said before one on one Fager would beat anything as far as you want to go! 10 furlongs in 1:59 & change tells me he could run all day.
BE109 4 years ago
One more comment. Dr. Fager's own trainer used a rabbit, Bold Nero when he was racing Gallant Man. Buckpasser used Great Power in his races. It is not "illegal" or "cheating."
sandycat123 4 years ago
I will level with you, I didn't know that about Fager or Buckpasser. Those are fair comments, and I appreciate them. I'm still learning about these great legends even now.
I just can't possibly agree with the fact that it is "legal" or not "cheating" to allow a pretender entry to create a false pace to possibly aid another horse.
That's all I'm going to say about that. Fans are robbed at times of great outcomes when this is allowed. Period. Take care.
cf1970 4 years ago
Damascus was a great horse and one of the most durable in history. Damascus has been unfairly criticized about rabbits when actually in only 2 of his 32 races was Hedevar with him. Buckpasser's trainer too used a rabbit against Dr. Fager but such criticism is never leveled so strongly as it is against Damascus. Damascus was a great horse and perhaps those who don't know him so well should look at some of his races like the 1967 Travers. He was an AWESOME racehorse.
sandycat123 4 years ago
I agree, Damascus WAS a great horse, there's absolutely no denying that. After all, that's why I posted his '67 Travers!
You make a fair and valid point that Damascus has been the brunt of criticism for rabbits in the sport. It was/is indeed unfair to scapegoat him. I myself was more disappointed than angry that a rabbit was used to create a blazing bait for Dr. Fager while Damascus ran comfortably near the back, is all. continued...
cf1970 4 years ago
You seem to like Damascus better, I respect that. I like Dr. Fager AND, surprise, Damascus as well. No problemo at all.
Just look how their '67 Gotham turned out, without a rabbit! An absolute CLASSIC! That's the point I was aiming to make, nothing more.
One can only imagine how much better those 2 races would have been if they would have been allowed to battle it out without any rabbits. That's all I'm trying to say.
cf1970 4 years ago
Maybe this is a rather obvious point, but did you notice in the Gotham there WAS a rabbit? Neither Damascus, who was closer to the pace, or Dr. Fager, contested the early speed there. Rabbits are for horses who must have the lead, and to keep the early pace honest, instead of allowing front runners to slow the pace down and save themselves for the stretch with a rail trip.
atreju1979 4 years ago
And my point in my previous post is that clearly Dr. Fager and Damascus could rate, so what good would a rabbit do, unless the jockey took the bait (unlikely with a known stablemate in the race)?
atreju1979 4 years ago
Bill Shoemaker blamed himself for the Gotham Loss because Damascus moved to a certain spot in the race and SHoemaker was said to have thought what the hell leave him there. He also could not urge Damascus with a whip in the race (on one side) in the stretch because of the proximity of Dr. Fager. .
sandycat123 4 years ago
Bill Shoemaker also said that while he was riding Damascus, the colt would never lose to Dr. Fager again. He was right and he was quoted as saying Damascus could have won the 1967 Woodward without a rabbit.
sandycat123 4 years ago
Shoemaker was truly great, but he was saying that so he would not get taken off Damascus. Dr. Fager would crush any horse head to head!
BE109 4 years ago
Dr Fager had an Achilles Heel, he was a fierce competitor which meant he could not be rated. Horses like Secretariat and Seattle Slew could be rated against rabbits. Shoemaker said Damascus was great because he thought he was great. Any jockey theoretically can be taken off a horse, it happens all the time but the jockeys generally are good sports and say the horse is great. Shoemaker chose to ride Damascus because he was impressed with him.
sandycat123 4 years ago
You are missing the point, put simply one on one Fager would eat up Damascus anytime at any distance. As for Jockeys not always saying what they believe for fear of losing the mount, you are kidding yourself if you don't think it isn't true,I've seen it many times.
BE109 4 years ago
It was said by a racing columnist that Damascus needed a race to be run a certain way to win but added so did Dr. Fager. Dr. Fager couldn't win when the pace wasn't going his way and couldn't be rated. Seattle Slew would have had Hedevar for breakfast and still win over any distance.
sandycat123 4 years ago
Once again you missed the point I'm trying to make, FAGER DID EAT HEDEVAR FOR BREAKFAST. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE SLEW WOULD NOT HAD TO DEAL WITH A CLOSING TYPE HORSE OF THE CALIBER OF DAMASCUS. ALSO FAGER DID SHOW THE ABILITY TO RATE ON MANY OCCASIONS,THE STATEMENT THAT HE COULDN'T RATE IS JUST NOT RIGHT. LOOK AT THE GOTHAM VIDEO THAT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A HORSE RATING JUST OFF THE PACE. NOTE HEDEVAR IS NOT THERE, GUESS WHAT THE RESULT WAS?
BE109 4 years ago
My main point is that Dr. Fager was only susceptable to one horse, Damascus,when his rabbit was entered. Every other race in Fager's career it just made no difference to him at all. He just ran them straight into the ground. Meaning Damascus was the only horse who ever had a chance to beat him. No other horse could even pray that they had a slight chance against him. THAT IS A FACT! Successor beat him at 2, if you think in your right mind that he was better than Fager you outta of your mind.
BE109 4 years ago
Damascus wasn't the only horse to beat him. Successor was. Successor had health issues and didn't run well after 1966. I wouldn't dismiss him as mediocre so quickly. Successor was good enough to wrest the 2 year old championship from Dr. Fager and he deserves some credit for that!
sandycat123 4 years ago
Interestingly Shoemaker rode Dr Fager in that race(he actually rode him a couple times). Nerud and Shoemaker had a good working relationship. Strangely Shoemaker didn't fit the horse. According to Nerud he wasn't strong enough to control Fager. Ycaza and Baeza were better fits for Fager. Shoemaker was one of the very best ,but not on "The Doc".
BE109 4 years ago
Buckpasser also finished ahead of Dr. Fager. In Reality won via a disqualification in the Jersey. John Rotz praised Dr. Fager and said "he was not unbeatable but he was great."
sandycat123 4 years ago
Mr.Rotz got the oppurtunity to ride "The Doc" once. After just inhaling Kissin George(a pretty good sprinter himself), Rotz commented that horse was a freak! Need I say more?
BE109 4 years ago
I believe that was the last time Ycaza rode him. That DQ was pretty shaky It didn't appear that In Reality was bothered.
BE109 4 years ago
Damascus ran not his usual race in the Gotham. He was rank and Shoemaker wanted him to relax--he was closer to the lead than anticipated by Shoemaker who said "what the hell leave him there" (according to post race interview). Ycaza and Dr. Fager came on the outside and Shoemaker couldn't whip Damascus right handed. Shoemaker blamed himself for the loss.
sandycat123 4 years ago
I still stand by my previous statements, that one on one Dr. Fager would eat up any horse.
BE109 4 years ago
My point about Seattle Slew is that for him and horses like Spectacular Bid, Count Fleet, and Ruffian, rabbits had no effect. Dr. Fager was effected by them. Spectacular Bid and Seattle Slew did face high calibre horses in their careers also. Seattle Slew ran longer distances than Dr. Fager. I think Dr. Fager and Damascus were both great. Damascus could run distances, Dr. Fager had blazing speed and could run on the lead.
sandycat123 4 years ago
Once again I must say Dr. Fager was in numerous races with wicked fractions, but only the Damascus/Hedevar entry ever really bothered him. That tells me that Damascus was his only real rival(with the rabbit of course). Otherwise "The Doc" just sailed on down the lane. Ruffian was so far ahead in most of her races a rabbit wouldn't have done any good. It's kinda hard to compare horses who never ran against each other.
BE109 4 years ago
After Damascus was through racing and no longer a source of huge income to Shoemaker, Shoemaker would visit Damascus at Claiborne. Riders like their horses and admire them, that's a big reason they ride. And if they are taken off a horse they blame the trainer but still admire the horse. Maybe Shoemaker was impressed with Damascus and liked him. I am not that cynical about Shoemaker saying nice things because he wanted to keep riding Damascus and get money.
sandycat123 4 years ago
I did not say that Shoe didn't admire Damascus(hell I admire him to) what I said was that in the racing business those jocks and trainers always say what they think the owners want to hear. Do you really think that Whiteley would have kept Shoe on Damascus if he had said he needed the rabbit? I hate to tell you this, you need to really look at the 4 races they ran against each other.
BE109 4 years ago
Damascus was at his peak from the time he won the American Derby to after the JC Gold Cup. Dr. Fager's connections chose not to run him against Damascus from the Gotham to the Woodward Stakes. Dr. Fager was at his peak in 1968, Damascus in 1967. Dr. Fager lost the two year old championship when he was beated by Successor.
sandycat123 4 years ago
Bad grammar. Defeated by Successor. Sorry wrote that too fast.
sandycat123 4 years ago
You actually hit the nail on the head on one point. You mentioned Fager was a fierce competitor,that is what all the great ones had.
BE109 4 years ago
You need to get in touch with reality,look at the one one meetings. Against a horse of the caliber of Fager, Damascus just didn't have the running style to stay with Fager. Remember every horse who tried to go with Fager got fried, and that is a fact,look it up!
BE109 4 years ago
I'm very aware of who Damascus was, do you not see the plain truth,you just said it yourself,that Damascus only had Hedevar in 2 of his 32 career starts. Wouldn't you know,Dr Fager was in both races,I believe that is proof that Whiteley knew he needed a rabbit to beat Dr. Fager.
BE109 4 years ago
In a match race Dr. Fager wins.....you do what you need to do to win the race and if that involved entering a rabbit so be it...not Whitely's fault the DF wouldn't rate.
JimSpoor 4 years ago
That is very true,all good trainers try to put their horses in the right spots. Also they learn about every horse in their barn. Knowing how a horse likes a race to set up for them(pace,position,opposition,and whether to use a rabbit,etc.). It has always been that way.
BE109 4 years ago
Great video. Thanks!
Dr Fager was no doubt the greater horse. Rabbits need to be barred from racing. Period.
funshipM174 5 years ago
Glad you liked it. Yeah, The Doctor was better. Rabbits...ugh...I don't even wanna get started. I've said my piece already, but I totally agree with you. Take care.
cf1970 5 years ago
They greatest race horse all time....Dr Fager
whennif 5 years ago
loved it!!! Nice to hear Harvey Pack's voice again...
serenassong 5 years ago
I loved it too. Harvey Pack was a master. I wonder how he would have been as a race caller. Take care.
cf1970 5 years ago
wait i dont get the whole "rabbit" thing...why would you try to keep up with the rabbit knowing its just gonna tire itself out
doacavs55 5 years ago
Wow! That was great. Do you have the 1962 Travers with Jaipur and Ridan? That was one of the best races I ever saw, but I can't find it on YouTube....
Slightlybent 5 years ago
Glad you liked it. I haven't seen the '62 Travers either, would love to. Take care.
cf1970 5 years ago
Love that tail swish Fager gives at the end of that last race. He hated being beat!
shmemily8 5 years ago
Good point, that tail swish was awesome. He was a wicked horse. Take care.
cf1970 5 years ago
shmemily8
A tail swish is understood to be a signal to members of the herd behind that the tail swisher is all out, slowing down, about to stop. You will often see it near the end of a race when a rider uses the whip to ask for a bit more horse when there is no more.
fruglescot 4 years ago
What you say about tail swishing is correct. But I've seen horses throw their tail up when hit with the stick,those horses weren't tired,they just resented getting hit. Some horses will just prop when hit with the stick. Fager threw up his tail every time baeza hit him,he just detested the stick. I had a mare at the track who would do all these things if hit. In workouts no less.
BE109 4 years ago
i was looking for a Dr.Fager video for a long time.
thanks cf1970 thanks alot
ZayedEr 5 years ago
You are most welcome. I'm very happy that you enjoyed it. The Doctor was a superb horse and it's comments like these that keep me going on with this. I will admit, I've been thinking of packing it in, but don't know if I can! I love horses far too much! Finding interesting races and videos can be tough at times, and time-consuming as well. Thanks again for your support. Take care.
cf1970 5 years ago
God bless you for this!!!
JennyPotter 5 years ago
You are most welcome. I thank God for horses. They are majestic, sacred creatures. Truly wonderful to behold. God bless you too. ^_^
cf1970 5 years ago
awesome pair of horses
STU676 5 years ago
They sure were, glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for posting. Take care.
cf1970 5 years ago
HATE rabbits
rebecca11391 5 years ago
Yep, when used to tire an opposing stable's rival, they can ruin possible history in the making. It robs the fans of their money's worth also. Pacers I don't mind , but rabbits should be outlawed. I hate 'em too! Take care.
cf1970 5 years ago
Does anyone have a clip of the '68 Washington Park Handicap? That was his greatest run - 1 mile in 1:32 1/5 which is still the world record.
WhiteCamry 5 years ago
A superb find! Someone should colorize it. Thanx for posting.
WhiteCamry 5 years ago
I never realized how great a horse Dr. Fager was. Even when Hedevar was in there to soften him up on the front end, he was still running gamely down the stretch. And with 135 pounds!
Bassman968 5 years ago
Yep. The good Doctor was a monster horse. And quite rank from what I've read. Take care.
cf1970 5 years ago
CF-you do it again!
Thanks
JohnFPorcaro 5 years ago
You're a good friend, John. I'm happy you enjoyed it. God bless.
cf1970 5 years ago
Wonderful duels! Thoroughly enjoyable to watch over & over. Favorited to my channel.
gfn02 5 years ago
I had seen it before, but it's great to finally see it on YouTube.
Wallyhorse 5 years ago