A block with the flat is more likely to break the sword. Run the math. It's not about what I gain from blocking with the edge- it's about not being hung up on _not_ blocking with the edge.
@seosaidh : A sword is MEANT to be blocked with the flat. It is made to safely bend on the flat to disperse much of the impact. You block with the flat of your strong.
@Halofreakanoid Says who? Ringeck? Von Danzig? Talhoffer? Only with the krumphau is there even a comment about flats... and that can't be your own flat.
Physics? Nope. Not according to any engineer to whom I've spoken. They all agree- through the edge is the strongest way.
See, I'm not suggesting that you never block with the flat. I'm saying that one shouldn't be wedded to the concept due to some false idea. There is no advantage to the flat, and there is a significant drawback.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I have studied longsword seriously. I personally don't study Meyer because he is a Schulefechten source; I am interested only in Ernstfechten (lethal combat, as opposed to Meyer's sportive system).
I have read all the arguments out that say to block with the flat. They're simply wrong- not because I say so, but because physics does.
@seosaidh : I don't see a single insult there, other than continued accusations back and forth from you to I and vice versa.
Physics does NOT say that blocking with the edge is good, because the flat will not be cut or broken by another blade of the same or lesser metal. In fact smashing edge on edge is the most static form of combat and doesn't leave as many openings for you to strike your opponent. It also weakens the overall blade by causing microfractures.
@seosaidh : Meyer primarily taught his students how to win in DUELS. In a duel the objective is to kill, and not die. His techniques can be used in the field of combat as well, if the fighting turns into a close combat mess.
If you read that essay made by who many consider a modern day master and genius in his interpretations of the medieval/Renaissance writings, he mentions MULTIPLE masters say that it is more advantageous to block and parry with edge to flat, INCLUDING Talhoffer.
@seosaidh : Yes, SOME masters told to block with the edge, but only with CERTAIN WEAPONS DESIGNED TO DO IT. Most longsword type weapons are not designed to do this.
You're not supposed to block with the part of a blade that is strong and rigid, that will BREAK the sword. The flat is designed to flex and disperse. Not to mention the DOZENS of techniques revolving around blocking with the flat.
If I get a gouge in my blade, it will suck. But I can still kill my opponent with it. Okay, maybe it's not fixable. But all I care about is winning the fight. When he's dead, then I'll worry about the fact that I have to replace the sword. As long as it has an edge, I can kill with it.
I agree, one gauge will most likley not break your sword. But at the same time, a block with the flat is not likley to break your sword either. The think is that with a gauge you will get higher stress concentration around that gauge, thus weakening the blade.
So if it's unlikely that your blade will break anyway. What is the gain to block with the edge? However, if you block with the flat, you don't have to turn your blade because your edge is already facing your opponent.
@seosaidh : You don't seem to understand that these things were in no way easy to replace back then. And actually there are writings of swords being so dinged from combat from just hitting bones, armor, and shields that they could no longer cut.
@Halofreakanoid I do understand. But you're wrong. There's an account of a friendly deed of arms- I can look it up if needed- that states that in six blows they broke five swords. There's nothing to suggest that a sword represented the same percentage of income that they do today. Additionally, if it were the tool of your trade, you'd spend the money- just like contractors and such do now. It wasn't a hobby that they had to free up extra money to do like it is for you and I.
@seosaidh : Except that they were worth more up until the Renaissance. A sword in the Dark Ages was worth half a mark of gold, or 16 milk cows, which is a LOT of money. What time period does your story take place? I'm guessing it's near or in the Renaissance, or of someone who is of good wealthy stature who could afford such things easier. A knight perhaps?
@Halofreakanoid I don't know what you mean by story. This is a discussion regarding medieval swordsmanship from the 15th Century- that being the period, really, of the longsword and the origin of the sources we are discussing. We don't really know much from before 1389, and the vast majority is from the 1400s.
Additionally, yes, we're talking about knights and nobles; the longsword is a weapon of nobles. If we were talking peasants, we'd be talking about messers.
@seosaidh : By "story" I mean something that was told by mouth or written down. A tale that is not necessarily true or untrue.
I was talking about the 9th-13th century viking era. If we are talking about the 15th century, then yes, swords were of lesser value because of them being easier to make, however, they were still not cheap. Far more expensive than the $200-$500 swords you can buy now.
@seosaidh : I also question the authenticity of either the story or the swords they were using in the story. I properly made sword will not be broken by a single stroke to anything, much less 5 swords in 6 strokes. I have a feeling they were using inferior made blades that didn't cost as much money.
@gurkslsk89- that's cool, always good to have an informed opinion. I do want to address something important- people have talked about notching and thus ruining the blade. And they're right. It would. And did. But notched beyond repair does not mean broken in your hand.
I get that nicking up your sword is bad. Breaking it is worse. Every engineer I've talked to says the strong way is the edge. Consider: one doesn't do board-breaking on edge- there's too much material. You go through the "flat." The same physics applies to metal. There's no magical transformation when steel is made that negates physics.
Yes, you can break a blade on edge, but it doesn't happen often... as we saw in this video, in fact. Gouged, yes, but not broken.
@seosaidh Strong compared to what? You can be perfectly safe using the flat, and have a sword that will be useable afterwards. Medieval swords were designed to be flexible along the flat to absorb the impact. It's really quite easy to do with even a small amount of practice. :)
@Kunstdesfechtens Strong compared to the flat. I disagree that you can be "perfectly safe"- every video but one I've seen where a sword breaks it's been across the flat. I've had training swords break, and always when hit flat. I asked a few friends who know more about engineering and physics than I do. Their answer was "duh, any engineering student would tell you that it's more likely to snap when hit across the flat." It's more about physics than technique,
@seosaidh I've never seen a sword break from an impact along the flat, though swords can break no matter how you hit them. Stuff happens. However, surviving swords with combat damage show a suspicious lack of seriously gouged edges. Remember the Codex Wallerstein says to parry "with the flat and nail" with the messer. Falkner's manuals shows it as well. If you do bash the edges together, then the sword WILL break all the easier.
@Kunstdesfechtens I'm going to respond in two parts, just because of the character limit.
No, they aren't going to break more easily on the edge. That's just physics. Not one person to whom I've spoken with any formal training in physics or engineering has said that a piece of metal is more likely to fail across the edge than the flat, This is why support beams, be they wood or metal, are oriented along the edge. The math trumps either of our opinions. Show me math that says otherwise.
@seosaidh It's not about the sword breaking. It's about ruining the edge, making the sword useless and prone to failure after many edge to edge hits. I had my two sharp longswords leaning up against a veranda railing during a cutting practice. The ended up falling together, and smacked edge to edge, damn nigh ruining them beyond repair, from simple GRAVITY. Having two swords hit like that from the intesection of two strong strikes would ruin them forever instantly.
@Kunstdesfechtens As I understand, most sword finds that are clearly combat related are found in relation to battlefields. In the 15th C., those swords wouldn't have seen a lot of impact because they were used to halfsword, I don't know why you'd need to smack edges together in armor, unless at a friendly deed of arms.
As for messer, I confess I know little about it. It may be that using the flat got the nail around where it was useful. It doesn't change the physics. It's all in the math.
@seosaidh There are surving swords that were for unarmoured duelling, notably the original for Albion's Brescia Spadona, which is likely designed for unarmoured duelling. It's been used, but no big gouges. Likewise for Albion's latest piece, whose name escapes me. :)
Hi, do you mind if I join the conversation? (Not that you have much choice because this is youtube, but if you do mind, please call me something inappropriate.)
I'm an engineering student. And I would not say that it is that simple. I'm sorry for posting a wall of text but I find this very interesting and I am looking forward to hear more about this topic, especially from those of you that knows more about fracture mechanics than me (who only have brief overview about the topic).
The impact strength of a material is difficult to tell, there's still no way (I think) to measure it other than by destructive testing. And there is a lot of different impact tests because there is so many ways that the impact can happen.
If we use the Charpy impact test which is common and use a pendulum. Then we find that not only are the depth and breadth of the sample important for the outcome but also the depth and shape of the notch.
The depth of the notch/depth of the sample ratio and the depth/breadth ratio of the sample are also important. In a Charpy impact test the span between the mountings are important. And that only or one type of impact that aren't so common in a swordfight.
The Izod test looks more like something that could happen in a swordfight but that test also have many parameters. Then we have flaws/irregularities in the material (like pores, cracks, tension variations from the quenching etc.)...
...that are more or less random, the question is if it the flat or edge parry are better to minimize the contribution from those flaws or if it doesn't matter.
I assume that the geometry of the cross section also have a role to play. If you for example have a riser and parry on the flat the notch will be different and the imposed stresses in the blade will be different.
The support beam has only a little to do with this. While I agree that if I want my sword to support weight, having it on it's edge would make it flex less and therefore be able to hold more load. But that doesn't say anything about any impact with sharp edge. Also let's say that we strike to the middle of the blade, a strike to the flat would make it bend more so that there would be less energy to create a notch.
Even if it's the same total energy, the energy will be more spread over a larger volume if you use the flat. The closer we are to the hilt (where we want to make our parry) this will be of less importance.
For the board-breaking. There is a huge differense between wooden boards for breaking and steel. Wood have grains to it so it's easier to break it in one direction. Think about wood chopping where it's easier to cut the wood where there's more material =).
And if you look at those who tries to cut metal (like Isao Machii) they cut sheet metal along the edge and not on the surface. This because metal is easier to cut if you first have a crack, and it's easier to begin that crack on the edge of the sheet (all the energy is in a very small spot). After you get the crack you don't need that much more energy to make it propagate through the rest of the target.
As a conclusion I would say that it's hard to tell in advance what will happen and what the best way is. But I would have to guess (and this is really only guessing), I would say that while blocking with the strong of the blade you can absorb more energy without having a fracture if you block with the edge of the blade, but while doing that you weaken the blade a lot so if you have to block multiple attacks I think the flat would be a better option.
As a conclusion I would say that it's hard to tell in advance what will happen and what the best way is. But I would have to guess (and this is really only guessing), I would say that while blocking with the strong of the blade you can absorb more energy without having a fracture if you block with the edge of the blade, but while doing that you weaken the blade a lot so if you have to block multiple attacks I think the flat would be a better option.
To come closer to practice, I think that you should try to block with the flat as much as possible but if you are faced with a full force mordhau to the head or an over head strike from a pollaxe I think that a halfsword parry with the edge maybe would be better to cope with that stress.
It would be awesome if anyone would test this, but it would be to pricey because of the destructive nature of the tests and the awfully huge sample size that you would need to test all the parameters and to be able to neglect the miniature flaws in the samples.
jeez. I always knew that real sharp sword would gain more damage from parrying, but I didn't realised it would THAT bad. I'mr from Poland, I use norman shortsword, and my most of my sparring partners hit real hard... I'll try to remember not to parry with the sword's edge, even though it's blunt - just on principal. thanks for sharing.
I hope someone would be able to shell out a few thousand dollars for such a thing; my hypothesis would be that the katana would actually dent exponentially worse than the longswords. It'll finally put this argument to rest.
There are a few other videos on youtube that feature katanas getting edge-bashed, i'll try sending them to you once i have time.
@tiamat9989 kool, that would awesome, for some reason there's such a myth about katanas and oriental martial arts. People seem to think there like light sabres that can cut through gun barrels and stuff. I think mainly it's due to exaggerated ninja and samurai movies. And most people just think that in medieval europe, soldiers just waddled around in armour and bonked each other with heave weapons.
The most notable one, and the most fun because it shows it in excruciatingly slow motion. Imagining the look on the weeaboos' faces as they see the katana fail catastrophically...bloody priceless.
Personally, I envision it as the look on someone's face when you show him photographic proof that his girlfriend has been cheating on him and then punt him in the balls.
@halfassedfart Ha ha ha ha ha haaaaa!!! Back yard and basement half-arsed experiments!
BTW I didn't see any katana fail in the link you provided. That fat arse nerd only tried some sharpened spike on some tin bin! Is that experiment relevant to the world wide comunity of bladesmiths? WOW! I think we all gonna throw away our hand made japanese blades and buy some from this retard! LMAOOOOOOO!!!!
I'd be glad to see a better test video if you happen to have one. As of yet, that German documentary is all we've got, unfortunately.
Thing is, if real katanas can take the punishment you'd think there'd be more demonstrations of that. I realize they're expensive, but surely scientific communities can afford authentic blades for destruction tests? Perhaps most Japanese swordmakers know that their swords would fail, which is why these tests don't happen. Would be curious to see.
@tiamat9989 its VERY obvious wha should happen to a katana blade hitting edgeto edge
while a katana with a decent amount of niku would fare alittle better, tsimple fact is that a katanas edge is prposely hardened to an insane degree would mean the section that hit edge on edge would cause horrendouse damage, i wouldnt just nick i reckon, it would be catastropically worse,
In case it's still interesting for somebody, the man (Stefan Roth) in the german docu is an expert himself and a very good smith of Katanas - so I think at least that test isn't so bad.
@MrNiceGuyNot you do not know who he is and you talk crap he is one of best katana smiths in europe and hes selling swords into japan as well..... when you would know the basics of metalurgy you would know how katana would react.... katana is olny an sharpened iron bar with handle live with it..... and thats not backyard is a german tv science series..... i presume you dont even understand german......
If you didn't blatantly see that GERMAN BLACKSMITH smash that HANDMADE katana that was made using JAPANESE IRON ORE in TRADITIONAL methods against a broadsword, and see the katana fail instantly, then see a German Longsword made using traditional materials and methods smash through a copy of the broadsword with so much as a nick in it, then you're either blind or an idiot.
The fact that you blatantly lost control over yourself and provided no back-evidence, shows how in denial you are.
@Halofreakanoid WOW! i missed the 'you' coz i was busy and you got your knickers in a knot over it.
As regarding to swords (and anything else for that matter): the proof is in the pudding - how many crap long-swords or bastard swords have you seen in private collections as opposed to katanas? Not many i assure you. So there you go.
@MrNiceGuyNot : That has nothing to do with quality of swords and everything to do with POP culture and people believing whimsical tales from the far east that are just untrue legends.
Here, let this historian educate you on reality: /watch?v=XLWzH_1eZsc
@Halofreakanoid Man I'm gonna tell you this: I ain't gonna argue with all the troll freakoids on YT. You believe whatever you want to cuz nobody gives a shit anyway, and I ain't gonna convince you otherwise. I know swords and I know metallurgy, I studied it. I ain't gonna waste my time with all freaks. Adios forever.
We are doing destruction tests of our own swords in shop at the moment against our competition to try & reach the highest possible level of quality we can.
Ooo, I would love to see videos of your tests if possible! It would be really great to see videos that show swords getting broken from getting hit on the flat instead of the edge too so we can make a good comparison.
Unfortunately I don't know what brand he was using, but I *think* I've seen Pavel Moc and Del Tin swords that look like the ones used here. Don't take my word for it, but you could try asking on the ARMA forums.
Scientific experiments can be costly. Three swords (at most 1500 dollars) isn't bad when it dispels a terrible myth about swords that is decades (if not centuries) old.
no its just a waste of money and there is no such myth intelligent ppl know that parying with the edge of a weapon is retarded .
and parrying in anyway shape or form the blade or the flat is going to do some damage to both weapons its just minimized at the flat and maximized at the blade.
a waste of money plain and simple if you want to throw swords away give them to me.
You're definitely on to something when you say that parrying in any form is bad! Thumbs up for you from me =)
But if you read the description you'll realize that the swords used in this video already had broken hilts or blades and were unusable for training.
It's not like John here bought brand new swords specifically for destroying them. That's what Mythbusters did, haha! I might be able to send u a link of them doing that if u wanna watch them blow up swords.
There's been a bit of debate on the video I posted in response to this one about the historicity of using the flat of the blade to receive hits (one that I appreciate and hope will continue in a civil manner.)
I would encourage someone to post a video demonstration that shows the damage (or lack thereof) a blade receives when a strike from a sharp sword is received on the FLAT.
This way, we would have two reference points to draw our conclusions.
Edge to edge contact should never happen. Swords were expensive even for nobles. Even if you could loot back the money for another theres no reason to do it in the first place. Using the flat of the blade is just as easy and doesn't ruin a perfectly fine sword. Besides, it's just a matter of time before it breaks and if that happens mid battle then your really out of luck. Edge to edge contact with any sword is a myth born of ignorance, and it needs to die.
It depends. In medieval western swordsmanship, edge to edge is basically non-existant. It can happen from two IDENTICALLY timed Zornhauen, but that's rare. In some Japanese ryuha, they happily block edge to edge depending on circumstances, even while knowing that the sword would be ruined. This is because they were relying on battlefield supplies of swords, which were kept in piles. That, however is special case.
It's generally preferable to have a banged up sword than a banged up human though. There are historical accounts of people getting the crap smacked out of their nice, shiny blades in battle.
If you win, you've got a whole battlefield of loot to nick. If you lose, there's more urgent and important stuff on your plate.
This may be another reason (among a looong list) why hafted weapons were popular.
Off couse the blade damages from impact, but does it really matter that much? It's not like medieval fighters went on rampage and killed hundreds of people during a battle. How many people could a well trained warrior kill, 5? That would be like 10 blocks in the worst scenario. Longsword could handle that.
Would a modern soldier shoot his rifle till it jammed or let it get full of dirt?Would he allow rust to develop in the bore through firing corrosive ammo or failing to clean it properly? Would he let the muzzel get pitted from resting it on the ground? The answer is no, a soldier's life depends on his weapon being in servicable condition. A Medieval soldier would have thought the same way about his weapons too, abusing his sword by letting it get nicked might end with him losing his life too.
well, i do understand what your demonstraighting but i would like to point something out, an Experienced fighter would rarly block a blade and keep his sword stationary, though this test is practical it doesnt show how a sword would react during EVERY block, just putting my two cents out there, thnks for reading
prrof of this please. assuming two swordsman have weapons of equal length, to NOT have to block every attack would mean they are moving in and out of each others range constantly. This would waste time and energy. Better to close parry/block and counter than dance in and out of range.
an Experienced fighter would rarly block a blade and keep his sword stationary
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I don't know what your point is. Even if it wasn't stationary, an edge on edge will still cause this damage. Over my training, with blunt swords, we've had plenty of accidental edge on edges, and the contact is enough to make sparks fly, even when we're yielding.
That's because what the blade does after the block doesn't matter- it's at the contact when the damage is done.
No sword (katana, arming sword, whatever) can withstand edge bashing. Those styles that use edges to block use swords with a thick ricasso for "stoppes". Edge to flat whenever possible. Even zorn to zorn results in oblique contact, since one person strikes first, changing the relative point of impact. Absetzen with the edge is really absetzen with the crossguard and starke, just like displacing a Scheitelhau with Kron from Alber, only on the horizontal plane.
I'm not a "hater" but is it ever gonna happen, even once, somebody posting a video demonstrating the physics or metallurgy of European swords without somebody else mentioning katanas?
Sorry Ranziel, meant to put thumbs up, but my aim went a little off. D;
Anyway, sparks fly as long as there's metal being gouged out during blade contact. (You would have thought that with the amount of sparks in anime, their swords would have been broken a thousand times over, lol! )
Yeah, sure the katana can withstand them... Probably only once, and not without damage. ;D
This has been flagged as spam show
Then what should swordmen do if opponent is trying to block with edge to edge?
stamplim 2 months ago
A block with the flat is more likely to break the sword. Run the math. It's not about what I gain from blocking with the edge- it's about not being hung up on _not_ blocking with the edge.
seosaidh 5 months ago
@seosaidh : A sword is MEANT to be blocked with the flat. It is made to safely bend on the flat to disperse much of the impact. You block with the flat of your strong.
Halofreakanoid 4 months ago
@Halofreakanoid Says who? Ringeck? Von Danzig? Talhoffer? Only with the krumphau is there even a comment about flats... and that can't be your own flat.
Physics? Nope. Not according to any engineer to whom I've spoken. They all agree- through the edge is the strongest way.
See, I'm not suggesting that you never block with the flat. I'm saying that one shouldn't be wedded to the concept due to some false idea. There is no advantage to the flat, and there is a significant drawback.
seosaidh 4 months ago
@seosaidh : You've SERIOUSLY never studied longsword fighting in any actual degree. Try Meyer. You'll learn a thing or two.
Try this as well: thearma(dot)org/essays/edgemyth(dot)htm
Halofreakanoid 3 months ago
@Halofreakanoid I see. We're going to devolve to insults.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I have studied longsword seriously. I personally don't study Meyer because he is a Schulefechten source; I am interested only in Ernstfechten (lethal combat, as opposed to Meyer's sportive system).
I have read all the arguments out that say to block with the flat. They're simply wrong- not because I say so, but because physics does.
seosaidh 3 months ago
@seosaidh : I don't see a single insult there, other than continued accusations back and forth from you to I and vice versa.
Physics does NOT say that blocking with the edge is good, because the flat will not be cut or broken by another blade of the same or lesser metal. In fact smashing edge on edge is the most static form of combat and doesn't leave as many openings for you to strike your opponent. It also weakens the overall blade by causing microfractures.
Halofreakanoid 3 months ago
@seosaidh : Meyer primarily taught his students how to win in DUELS. In a duel the objective is to kill, and not die. His techniques can be used in the field of combat as well, if the fighting turns into a close combat mess.
If you read that essay made by who many consider a modern day master and genius in his interpretations of the medieval/Renaissance writings, he mentions MULTIPLE masters say that it is more advantageous to block and parry with edge to flat, INCLUDING Talhoffer.
Halofreakanoid 3 months ago
@seosaidh : Yes, SOME masters told to block with the edge, but only with CERTAIN WEAPONS DESIGNED TO DO IT. Most longsword type weapons are not designed to do this.
You're not supposed to block with the part of a blade that is strong and rigid, that will BREAK the sword. The flat is designed to flex and disperse. Not to mention the DOZENS of techniques revolving around blocking with the flat.
/watch?v=TtNZQBc4RpE
Halofreakanoid 3 months ago
If I get a gouge in my blade, it will suck. But I can still kill my opponent with it. Okay, maybe it's not fixable. But all I care about is winning the fight. When he's dead, then I'll worry about the fact that I have to replace the sword. As long as it has an edge, I can kill with it.
seosaidh 5 months ago
@seosaidh
I agree, one gauge will most likley not break your sword. But at the same time, a block with the flat is not likley to break your sword either. The think is that with a gauge you will get higher stress concentration around that gauge, thus weakening the blade.
So if it's unlikely that your blade will break anyway. What is the gain to block with the edge? However, if you block with the flat, you don't have to turn your blade because your edge is already facing your opponent.
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
@seosaidh : You don't seem to understand that these things were in no way easy to replace back then. And actually there are writings of swords being so dinged from combat from just hitting bones, armor, and shields that they could no longer cut.
Halofreakanoid 4 months ago
@Halofreakanoid I do understand. But you're wrong. There's an account of a friendly deed of arms- I can look it up if needed- that states that in six blows they broke five swords. There's nothing to suggest that a sword represented the same percentage of income that they do today. Additionally, if it were the tool of your trade, you'd spend the money- just like contractors and such do now. It wasn't a hobby that they had to free up extra money to do like it is for you and I.
seosaidh 4 months ago
@seosaidh : Except that they were worth more up until the Renaissance. A sword in the Dark Ages was worth half a mark of gold, or 16 milk cows, which is a LOT of money. What time period does your story take place? I'm guessing it's near or in the Renaissance, or of someone who is of good wealthy stature who could afford such things easier. A knight perhaps?
Halofreakanoid 4 months ago
@Halofreakanoid I don't know what you mean by story. This is a discussion regarding medieval swordsmanship from the 15th Century- that being the period, really, of the longsword and the origin of the sources we are discussing. We don't really know much from before 1389, and the vast majority is from the 1400s.
Additionally, yes, we're talking about knights and nobles; the longsword is a weapon of nobles. If we were talking peasants, we'd be talking about messers.
seosaidh 4 months ago
@seosaidh : By "story" I mean something that was told by mouth or written down. A tale that is not necessarily true or untrue.
I was talking about the 9th-13th century viking era. If we are talking about the 15th century, then yes, swords were of lesser value because of them being easier to make, however, they were still not cheap. Far more expensive than the $200-$500 swords you can buy now.
Halofreakanoid 4 months ago
@seosaidh : I also question the authenticity of either the story or the swords they were using in the story. I properly made sword will not be broken by a single stroke to anything, much less 5 swords in 6 strokes. I have a feeling they were using inferior made blades that didn't cost as much money.
Halofreakanoid 4 months ago
@gurkslsk89- that's cool, always good to have an informed opinion. I do want to address something important- people have talked about notching and thus ruining the blade. And they're right. It would. And did. But notched beyond repair does not mean broken in your hand.
seosaidh 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
See, you don't get this problem with lightsabers.
SaltyLunch 5 months ago
I get that nicking up your sword is bad. Breaking it is worse. Every engineer I've talked to says the strong way is the edge. Consider: one doesn't do board-breaking on edge- there's too much material. You go through the "flat." The same physics applies to metal. There's no magical transformation when steel is made that negates physics.
Yes, you can break a blade on edge, but it doesn't happen often... as we saw in this video, in fact. Gouged, yes, but not broken.
seosaidh 1 year ago
@seosaidh Strong compared to what? You can be perfectly safe using the flat, and have a sword that will be useable afterwards. Medieval swords were designed to be flexible along the flat to absorb the impact. It's really quite easy to do with even a small amount of practice. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 7 months ago
@Kunstdesfechtens Strong compared to the flat. I disagree that you can be "perfectly safe"- every video but one I've seen where a sword breaks it's been across the flat. I've had training swords break, and always when hit flat. I asked a few friends who know more about engineering and physics than I do. Their answer was "duh, any engineering student would tell you that it's more likely to snap when hit across the flat." It's more about physics than technique,
seosaidh 6 months ago
@seosaidh I've never seen a sword break from an impact along the flat, though swords can break no matter how you hit them. Stuff happens. However, surviving swords with combat damage show a suspicious lack of seriously gouged edges. Remember the Codex Wallerstein says to parry "with the flat and nail" with the messer. Falkner's manuals shows it as well. If you do bash the edges together, then the sword WILL break all the easier.
Kunstdesfechtens 6 months ago
@Kunstdesfechtens I'm going to respond in two parts, just because of the character limit.
No, they aren't going to break more easily on the edge. That's just physics. Not one person to whom I've spoken with any formal training in physics or engineering has said that a piece of metal is more likely to fail across the edge than the flat, This is why support beams, be they wood or metal, are oriented along the edge. The math trumps either of our opinions. Show me math that says otherwise.
seosaidh 6 months ago
@seosaidh It's not about the sword breaking. It's about ruining the edge, making the sword useless and prone to failure after many edge to edge hits. I had my two sharp longswords leaning up against a veranda railing during a cutting practice. The ended up falling together, and smacked edge to edge, damn nigh ruining them beyond repair, from simple GRAVITY. Having two swords hit like that from the intesection of two strong strikes would ruin them forever instantly.
Kunstdesfechtens 6 months ago
@Kunstdesfechtens As I understand, most sword finds that are clearly combat related are found in relation to battlefields. In the 15th C., those swords wouldn't have seen a lot of impact because they were used to halfsword, I don't know why you'd need to smack edges together in armor, unless at a friendly deed of arms.
As for messer, I confess I know little about it. It may be that using the flat got the nail around where it was useful. It doesn't change the physics. It's all in the math.
seosaidh 6 months ago
@seosaidh There are surving swords that were for unarmoured duelling, notably the original for Albion's Brescia Spadona, which is likely designed for unarmoured duelling. It's been used, but no big gouges. Likewise for Albion's latest piece, whose name escapes me. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 6 months ago
@Kunstdesfechtens
I just wanted to say that I hijacked your conversation with Seosaidh and want you to get noticed about it too. I hope that you don't mind.
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
@gurkfisk89 It's all good. I don't mind at all. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 5 months ago
@seosaidh
Hi, do you mind if I join the conversation? (Not that you have much choice because this is youtube, but if you do mind, please call me something inappropriate.)
I'm an engineering student. And I would not say that it is that simple. I'm sorry for posting a wall of text but I find this very interesting and I am looking forward to hear more about this topic, especially from those of you that knows more about fracture mechanics than me (who only have brief overview about the topic).
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
The impact strength of a material is difficult to tell, there's still no way (I think) to measure it other than by destructive testing. And there is a lot of different impact tests because there is so many ways that the impact can happen.
If we use the Charpy impact test which is common and use a pendulum. Then we find that not only are the depth and breadth of the sample important for the outcome but also the depth and shape of the notch.
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
The depth of the notch/depth of the sample ratio and the depth/breadth ratio of the sample are also important. In a Charpy impact test the span between the mountings are important. And that only or one type of impact that aren't so common in a swordfight.
The Izod test looks more like something that could happen in a swordfight but that test also have many parameters. Then we have flaws/irregularities in the material (like pores, cracks, tension variations from the quenching etc.)...
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
...that are more or less random, the question is if it the flat or edge parry are better to minimize the contribution from those flaws or if it doesn't matter.
I assume that the geometry of the cross section also have a role to play. If you for example have a riser and parry on the flat the notch will be different and the imposed stresses in the blade will be different.
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
The support beam has only a little to do with this. While I agree that if I want my sword to support weight, having it on it's edge would make it flex less and therefore be able to hold more load. But that doesn't say anything about any impact with sharp edge. Also let's say that we strike to the middle of the blade, a strike to the flat would make it bend more so that there would be less energy to create a notch.
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
Even if it's the same total energy, the energy will be more spread over a larger volume if you use the flat. The closer we are to the hilt (where we want to make our parry) this will be of less importance.
For the board-breaking. There is a huge differense between wooden boards for breaking and steel. Wood have grains to it so it's easier to break it in one direction. Think about wood chopping where it's easier to cut the wood where there's more material =).
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
And if you look at those who tries to cut metal (like Isao Machii) they cut sheet metal along the edge and not on the surface. This because metal is easier to cut if you first have a crack, and it's easier to begin that crack on the edge of the sheet (all the energy is in a very small spot). After you get the crack you don't need that much more energy to make it propagate through the rest of the target.
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
As a conclusion I would say that it's hard to tell in advance what will happen and what the best way is. But I would have to guess (and this is really only guessing), I would say that while blocking with the strong of the blade you can absorb more energy without having a fracture if you block with the edge of the blade, but while doing that you weaken the blade a lot so if you have to block multiple attacks I think the flat would be a better option.
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
As a conclusion I would say that it's hard to tell in advance what will happen and what the best way is. But I would have to guess (and this is really only guessing), I would say that while blocking with the strong of the blade you can absorb more energy without having a fracture if you block with the edge of the blade, but while doing that you weaken the blade a lot so if you have to block multiple attacks I think the flat would be a better option.
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
To come closer to practice, I think that you should try to block with the flat as much as possible but if you are faced with a full force mordhau to the head or an over head strike from a pollaxe I think that a halfsword parry with the edge maybe would be better to cope with that stress.
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
It would be awesome if anyone would test this, but it would be to pricey because of the destructive nature of the tests and the awfully huge sample size that you would need to test all the parameters and to be able to neglect the miniature flaws in the samples.
gurkfisk89 5 months ago
jeez. I always knew that real sharp sword would gain more damage from parrying, but I didn't realised it would THAT bad. I'mr from Poland, I use norman shortsword, and my most of my sparring partners hit real hard... I'll try to remember not to parry with the sword's edge, even though it's blunt - just on principal. thanks for sharing.
sirVhailor 1 year ago
Could you do the same thing with a katana to prove they dent just as much?
300warrior300 1 year ago
@300warrior300
I hope someone would be able to shell out a few thousand dollars for such a thing; my hypothesis would be that the katana would actually dent exponentially worse than the longswords. It'll finally put this argument to rest.
There are a few other videos on youtube that feature katanas getting edge-bashed, i'll try sending them to you once i have time.
tiamat9989 1 year ago
@tiamat9989 kool, that would awesome, for some reason there's such a myth about katanas and oriental martial arts. People seem to think there like light sabres that can cut through gun barrels and stuff. I think mainly it's due to exaggerated ninja and samurai movies. And most people just think that in medieval europe, soldiers just waddled around in armour and bonked each other with heave weapons.
300warrior300 1 year ago
@tiamat9989 watch?v=5Hy_A9vjp_s#t=5m55s
The most notable one, and the most fun because it shows it in excruciatingly slow motion. Imagining the look on the weeaboos' faces as they see the katana fail catastrophically...bloody priceless.
Personally, I envision it as the look on someone's face when you show him photographic proof that his girlfriend has been cheating on him and then punt him in the balls.
halfassedfart 1 year ago 3
@halfassedfart
Yes! That's what I was looking for. I'm going to try to link that into my video here. Thanks!
tiamat9989 1 year ago
@halfassedfart Ha ha ha ha ha haaaaa!!! Back yard and basement half-arsed experiments!
BTW I didn't see any katana fail in the link you provided. That fat arse nerd only tried some sharpened spike on some tin bin! Is that experiment relevant to the world wide comunity of bladesmiths? WOW! I think we all gonna throw away our hand made japanese blades and buy some from this retard! LMAOOOOOOO!!!!
MrNiceGuyNot 1 year ago
@MrNiceGuyNot
I'd be glad to see a better test video if you happen to have one. As of yet, that German documentary is all we've got, unfortunately.
Thing is, if real katanas can take the punishment you'd think there'd be more demonstrations of that. I realize they're expensive, but surely scientific communities can afford authentic blades for destruction tests? Perhaps most Japanese swordmakers know that their swords would fail, which is why these tests don't happen. Would be curious to see.
tiamat9989 1 year ago
@tiamat9989 its VERY obvious wha should happen to a katana blade hitting edgeto edge
while a katana with a decent amount of niku would fare alittle better, tsimple fact is that a katanas edge is prposely hardened to an insane degree would mean the section that hit edge on edge would cause horrendouse damage, i wouldnt just nick i reckon, it would be catastropically worse,
elgostine 1 year ago
@tiamat9989
In case it's still interesting for somebody, the man (Stefan Roth) in the german docu is an expert himself and a very good smith of Katanas - so I think at least that test isn't so bad.
mawa89g 6 months ago
@MrNiceGuyNot you do not know who he is and you talk crap he is one of best katana smiths in europe and hes selling swords into japan as well..... when you would know the basics of metalurgy you would know how katana would react.... katana is olny an sharpened iron bar with handle live with it..... and thats not backyard is a german tv science series..... i presume you dont even understand german......
kolotiti 1 year ago
@MrNiceGuyNot haha you fail. That test was in a well-known scientific show in germany, and the guy is a f***ing famous smith
maaderllin 1 year ago
If you didn't blatantly see that GERMAN BLACKSMITH smash that HANDMADE katana that was made using JAPANESE IRON ORE in TRADITIONAL methods against a broadsword, and see the katana fail instantly, then see a German Longsword made using traditional materials and methods smash through a copy of the broadsword with so much as a nick in it, then you're either blind or an idiot.
The fact that you blatantly lost control over yourself and provided no back-evidence, shows how in denial you are.
Halofreakanoid 4 months ago
@Halofreakanoid What the fuck are talking about? I cannot make any sense of what you saying...
MrNiceGuyNot 4 months ago
@MrNiceGuyNot : Maybe if you read earlier posts that you and another person made, then learned some proper English, you'd understand.
Halofreakanoid 4 months ago
@Halofreakanoid WOW! i missed the 'you' coz i was busy and you got your knickers in a knot over it.
As regarding to swords (and anything else for that matter): the proof is in the pudding - how many crap long-swords or bastard swords have you seen in private collections as opposed to katanas? Not many i assure you. So there you go.
MrNiceGuyNot 4 months ago
@MrNiceGuyNot : That has nothing to do with quality of swords and everything to do with POP culture and people believing whimsical tales from the far east that are just untrue legends.
Here, let this historian educate you on reality: /watch?v=XLWzH_1eZsc
Halofreakanoid 4 months ago
@Halofreakanoid Man I'm gonna tell you this: I ain't gonna argue with all the troll freakoids on YT. You believe whatever you want to cuz nobody gives a shit anyway, and I ain't gonna convince you otherwise. I know swords and I know metallurgy, I studied it. I ain't gonna waste my time with all freaks. Adios forever.
MrNiceGuyNot 3 months ago
wow this is interesting, I never new that. I shall take it a mediately into effect, I'm fighting unhistorically!!!
300warrior300 1 year ago
You can blame television and staged theatrical duels for the myth. Even in the Conquest series, they showed edge to edge parrying.
And for kendo, they are practicing with a goddamn round bamboo sword, you have no fucking idea where is the edge.
Deadman1709 1 year ago
What brands shown in this video?
We are doing destruction tests of our own swords in shop at the moment against our competition to try & reach the highest possible level of quality we can.
MADdwarfWorkshop 1 year ago
@MADdwarfWorkshop
Ooo, I would love to see videos of your tests if possible! It would be really great to see videos that show swords getting broken from getting hit on the flat instead of the edge too so we can make a good comparison.
Unfortunately I don't know what brand he was using, but I *think* I've seen Pavel Moc and Del Tin swords that look like the ones used here. Don't take my word for it, but you could try asking on the ARMA forums.
Hope this helps!
tiamat9989 1 year ago
My God! Who has the money to be wasting good swords like that?
loafguy1634 1 year ago
Ask the ones that promote edge-edge parrying. ;-)
Scientific experiments can be costly. Three swords (at most 1500 dollars) isn't bad when it dispels a terrible myth about swords that is decades (if not centuries) old.
tiamat9989 1 year ago
@tiamat9989
no its just a waste of money and there is no such myth intelligent ppl know that parying with the edge of a weapon is retarded .
and parrying in anyway shape or form the blade or the flat is going to do some damage to both weapons its just minimized at the flat and maximized at the blade.
a waste of money plain and simple if you want to throw swords away give them to me.
killgore333333 1 year ago 3
@killgore333333
You're definitely on to something when you say that parrying in any form is bad! Thumbs up for you from me =)
But if you read the description you'll realize that the swords used in this video already had broken hilts or blades and were unusable for training.
It's not like John here bought brand new swords specifically for destroying them. That's what Mythbusters did, haha! I might be able to send u a link of them doing that if u wanna watch them blow up swords.
tiamat9989 1 year ago
I appologize didnt know you were using broken blades /non usable blades.
the internet has proven to me that most people are off their proverbial rockers untill proven otherwise
killgore333333 1 year ago
@killgore333333
Haha, no problem bro. It's a good philosophy to go by =)
tiamat9989 1 year ago
There's been a bit of debate on the video I posted in response to this one about the historicity of using the flat of the blade to receive hits (one that I appreciate and hope will continue in a civil manner.)
I would encourage someone to post a video demonstration that shows the damage (or lack thereof) a blade receives when a strike from a sharp sword is received on the FLAT.
This way, we would have two reference points to draw our conclusions.
Thanks for reading and watching!
tiamat9989 1 year ago
That's painful to watch *cringe*
KnightsValor9 2 years ago
Edge to edge contact should never happen. Swords were expensive even for nobles. Even if you could loot back the money for another theres no reason to do it in the first place. Using the flat of the blade is just as easy and doesn't ruin a perfectly fine sword. Besides, it's just a matter of time before it breaks and if that happens mid battle then your really out of luck. Edge to edge contact with any sword is a myth born of ignorance, and it needs to die.
WaverenEvermore 2 years ago 6
It depends. In medieval western swordsmanship, edge to edge is basically non-existant. It can happen from two IDENTICALLY timed Zornhauen, but that's rare. In some Japanese ryuha, they happily block edge to edge depending on circumstances, even while knowing that the sword would be ruined. This is because they were relying on battlefield supplies of swords, which were kept in piles. That, however is special case.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago
It's generally preferable to have a banged up sword than a banged up human though. There are historical accounts of people getting the crap smacked out of their nice, shiny blades in battle.
If you win, you've got a whole battlefield of loot to nick. If you lose, there's more urgent and important stuff on your plate.
This may be another reason (among a looong list) why hafted weapons were popular.
halfassedfart 2 years ago
Off couse the blade damages from impact, but does it really matter that much? It's not like medieval fighters went on rampage and killed hundreds of people during a battle. How many people could a well trained warrior kill, 5? That would be like 10 blocks in the worst scenario. Longsword could handle that.
Del249 2 years ago
Would a modern soldier shoot his rifle till it jammed or let it get full of dirt?Would he allow rust to develop in the bore through firing corrosive ammo or failing to clean it properly? Would he let the muzzel get pitted from resting it on the ground? The answer is no, a soldier's life depends on his weapon being in servicable condition. A Medieval soldier would have thought the same way about his weapons too, abusing his sword by letting it get nicked might end with him losing his life too.
mrbeast85 2 years ago 13
well, i do understand what your demonstraighting but i would like to point something out, an Experienced fighter would rarly block a blade and keep his sword stationary, though this test is practical it doesnt show how a sword would react during EVERY block, just putting my two cents out there, thnks for reading
bouncerboytimmy69 2 years ago
prrof of this please. assuming two swordsman have weapons of equal length, to NOT have to block every attack would mean they are moving in and out of each others range constantly. This would waste time and energy. Better to close parry/block and counter than dance in and out of range.
Hiddenronin 2 years ago
an Experienced fighter would rarly block a blade and keep his sword stationary
--
I don't know what your point is. Even if it wasn't stationary, an edge on edge will still cause this damage. Over my training, with blunt swords, we've had plenty of accidental edge on edges, and the contact is enough to make sparks fly, even when we're yielding.
That's because what the blade does after the block doesn't matter- it's at the contact when the damage is done.
insertoriginaluser 2 years ago
No sword (katana, arming sword, whatever) can withstand edge bashing. Those styles that use edges to block use swords with a thick ricasso for "stoppes". Edge to flat whenever possible. Even zorn to zorn results in oblique contact, since one person strikes first, changing the relative point of impact. Absetzen with the edge is really absetzen with the crossguard and starke, just like displacing a Scheitelhau with Kron from Alber, only on the horizontal plane.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago 11
You actually strike sparkles with your blows, some nice power you have there. And good demonstration.
Katana lovers will say that their favourite balde would withstand those blows easily though.
Ranziel1 2 years ago 5
Would be interesting to do the same thing with Katanas.
mrbeast85 2 years ago 3
I'm not a "hater" but is it ever gonna happen, even once, somebody posting a video demonstrating the physics or metallurgy of European swords without somebody else mentioning katanas?
QAeternus 2 years ago
There:
-- watch?v=QTv_xzav1Ls
The katana will chip and break finally. By the way; the katanas made of modern carbon steel are even more tough than old Koto and Shinto blades.
Protherium 2 years ago 6
Sorry Ranziel, meant to put thumbs up, but my aim went a little off. D;
Anyway, sparks fly as long as there's metal being gouged out during blade contact. (You would have thought that with the amount of sparks in anime, their swords would have been broken a thousand times over, lol! )
Yeah, sure the katana can withstand them... Probably only once, and not without damage. ;D
insertoriginaluser 2 years ago