The TRUE Utah Voucher Cookie Ad (Referendum 1)

[WasatchIntercept]

This argument relies on the premise that the size of the student body is irrelevant to the need for funds, that a school district's necessary expenditures are a constant, not a variable.

Simple math: less students = less resources needed.

[BluntTheKing]

a good analogy

[Laramas]

By the way, this is a great video. :)

[bgranvil]

Okay. Here is the real truth about education coming from someone getting her Ph.D in education. Children that have parents that care about education will do well whether the children are in a highly funded school or a low-funded school. Children whose parents use school as daycare and don't hold their children accountable for their academic and emotional behavior will not do well in school or in life. That's it!!

[Brainstrain]

Yes, there's absolutely NO correlation between school funding and student performance!

*Doesn't have a textbook*

*Gets lunch made by mom every day*

*Fails state exams based on those textbooks*

[Laramas]

Are you trying to claim that socioecdonomic status has absolutely no bearing on education? As someone getting her PhD in education, I think you'd have a source to back that up.

[CajunCommie]

No. That's not it at all.

What about parents working 2-3 jobs? (especially single moms). How can we except them to have the same time, money, and energy as a stay-at-home "middle class" mom? Not that the working poor don't love their kids and want them to fail, the reality of it is many families lack the resources to do better.

We expect these people to somehow overcome what most people don't. It's a weird sort of exceptionalism that relieves the rest of our society from any responsibility.

[CajunCommie]

Also, there is a clear indictator that wealthier families produce more successful students, ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING EQUAL.

Do parents need to be schooled on how to help their kids do well? Yes, of course. But we need to offer more to failing schools than boot straps.

[DNI12333]

Please tape your thesis defense and post it on youtube.

[arationalguy]

If this math is true, that sure is a lot of overhead being wasted in the public school system. Wow! Truth is, in states and countries that already use vouchers, the savings have been realized for a very long time. Perhaps you didn't realize that vouchers aren't new.

[AcrosticAcoustic]

"savings"

[UtahTeacher]

The money is distributed in $2417 chunks called WPU's to districts, which then spread that money around to many needs. Each individual student uniquely uses a few bucks in paper. The rest is shared. For full detail, check my blog which is listed in my profile above. The Nuts and Bolts posts from November specifically address voucher funding.

[CamisWorld]

So if the money isn't designed to be taken with the student in chunks then answer this. If population growth stops in a given area and 200 students leave a district then why does the money go away? I am as anti-voucher as they get but I believe your argument is flawed. Good try though.

[hellokitty13729]

People keep saying that it's pointless... So now the future is pointless? I'm glad that a scene chick has come out and written in words what the scene kids are all about. Let's not help anything because everything sucks anyway.

Props to those who say to evaluate things and try to fix them rather than throwing a bunch of money on something that won't work.

[sexyscenechic]

utah public schools suck so who cares. ppl are dumb

[parkerswifey]

great video! My mom is a public schools teacher and Im proud to be voting NO for vouchers and for referendum1!

[bravesfan8456]

Private schools are a priviledge, not a right or something everyone is entitled to. Its a luxury, just like a nice house or car. If you can't afford it, then suck it up and go to public school like the rest of us. This is just another government hand out so people don't have to work for it. Vote NO!

[bravesfan8456]

Plus, those students who take vouchers will not fit in with those students of wealthy families. They will be teased because they're only there because of the government. Kids are cruel, it will happen.

[djdominatord]

Agreed, in the meantime let's all admit that there are problems in our public education system and FIX THEM. Not redistribute wealth. Vote no on 1.

[bravoalphahk]

I agree with UtahTeacher's main points. But it's ironic that many voucher foes are also SCHIP supporters, since both plans share similar financial inequities.

If not a financial one, what's the real reason they dislike vouchers?

The complaints of accreditation, teacher qualifications, and accountability all fall squarely against religious schools. Basically, to vote down vouchers is to refuse to enable the moral education of students whose parents would choose it if they could afford it.

[squidbomb]

Vouchers encourage competition in education. America became great by allowing the market to dictate which companies thrived, and which ones died.

As more people move to private schools, markets become more competitive, schools will raise standards, and lower costs. They're expensive now because there's no reason for them not to be.

Some people might not like the idea of having to actually pay attention to the education that their child receives, because school to them is free day care.

[utahaztec]

I just want to eat the cookies.

[TheSamDrummerBoy]

Right on! UtahTeacher. Your blog is the first real explanation I've been able to find. I've been studying this for about 2 weeks trying to find out the "real" numbers. Your blog should be on everyones porch before Tues. THIS REFERENDUM SHOULD BE CRIMINAL!!! How'd it get this far? I hope Utah is smart enough to vote it down!

[TheSamDrummerBoy]

Okay, criminal is a strong word. I just don't like to be lied too. The pro-voucher campaign is based on twisted little lies. The anti-voucher campaign hasn't attacked the lies as well as they should have. Politics SUCK!!!

[UtahTeacher]

We can have an honest disagreement on educational philosophy (this is general, not directed at you Cpezo)--whether public education is the best way to use our tax funds. But there is NO HONEST WAY to claim that vouchers save public schools money. The $7500-$2000 = $5000 "savings" to "redistribute" AND the $1 billion in savings that were mailed out to thousands of voters this weekend are lies. Check my blog. =)

[opaqueman]

This clearly shows the government is a bad business manager. Nothing encourages the government to be more efficient. Doing more for less defines private enterprise.

Vouchers are paid from the general fund, not the educational fund.

If 50 of 1000 students decide to take the vouchers, the state still counts the school as having 1000 students. The schools lose nothing, except actual headcount.

I'm for vouchers. The government is inefficient running schools as this clip clearly shows.

[idigthechicks]

Bad business manager? Businesses love to talk about how they've reduced the marginal cost of a single student.

So, if the vouchers aren't taking from the schools, where's the money coming from? It's either coming from the taxpayers pocket, or it's coming from the schools.

[opaqueman]

There are three state budgets - education, transportation, and a general budget. Vouchers are funded from the general fund, not the education fund (See HB 148 line 17 among others.) Yes it is taxpayer funded, but not from monies allocated for education. If I pay a kid $7 to mow my lawn, and offer another kid $3 to mow it starting from the other side, does that mean I took $3 from the first? No, he got paid $7 yet had less work.

[urubu715]

Does it matter? It's still taxpayer dollars, and it still could go to fund education. Your analogy is as full of flaws as this voucher law.

[jasondhunter]

ha, dude are u really a teacher, ur retarded, even i'm smarter than u. take away enough student cookies, and u'll have to, oh no! fire a teacher! use 1 less bus! have 1 less program! coz what? coz u'll have LESS STUDENTS, duh, if u have LESS students u NEED LESS money to school them, if enough leave ur fixed cost drops too. its called 'down sizing' not 'harming public schools', if students leave, money SHOULD leave also, get real u clown, u just want more cookies for urself.

[bravoalphahk]

Thoughtful video; but it's a serious mischaracterization to call private schools "for profit", and it's unfair to say that public schools deserve that 3000 but private schools don't deserve it, or won't spend it in the very same way. Private schools only exist to address the shortcomings of public schools, and I think their promotion would be a great benefit to public welfare, even if by an imperfect funding bill.

[bravoalphahk]

It's not as if rejecting vouchers is any guarantee whatsoever that future tax increases won't be made for public schools. They will be. We're not voting on a budget, or a tax cap, or even to restrict public schools from receiving other funding to make up for their loss. We're choosing whether we want to foster private schools or retard them, leaving our kids festering in public education, lagging behind the world, and being educated in ways we have very little control over. I'll vote "yes".

[TheSamDrummerBoy]

"An imperfect funding bill"?????? What? How is that exceptable? Do you want a bunch of imperfect laws? The fact is that eventually this bill will hurt public ed. Is that exceptable? There's way too many problems to allow this ref. to pass.

[bravoalphahk]

It's acceptable because it's something. Politicians these days are such perfectionists, they vote down any bill that goes halfway to anywhere, and so instead they go nowhere. This bill goes halfway toward diversifying our stagnant educational system.

The alternative? Do nothing. Neglect to confront the underlying flaws of pub-ed; let the smart kids get smarter and the dumb get dumber. Public schools have already failed.

[TheSamDrummerBoy]

Halfway is okay? NO! fix the problem. Don't create new ones. There isn't anything that says they will be watching these private schools anywhere in the ref. But, we all get to pay for it. You do realize that the voucher students are being double funded now right? Do you have a kid in school? I do. She will be Entering 7th grade when it's all going to fall apart in 5 years.

[yaritznet]

The only way to fully fix a broken system is to threaten to destroy it. That threat will cause those who want to survive to do a better job. We have been giving too much money to the "public" broken system for over 30 years now. Increasing the money has not changed the education for better, but has made the system worse. Using your logic, we need to decreasing spending in order to fix the broken system.

[TheSamDrummerBoy]

Or...... You could fix the problems from within the system. It may cost a little bit, but they ought to bring someone in to look at the spending and teachers and see if they could fix it. Don't threaten the education of the kids in mainstream schools.

[TheSamDrummerBoy]

It's all pretty pointless now.... So, hopefully something good comes out of all of this mess.

[yaritznet]

Pointless for vouchers now, but not for fixing the system. We can find another way.

[yaritznet]

That would work, but the person that is brought in needs to know something about accounting and be brutal with the leech teachers and administrators. Some people call this the cleaning of the dead weight.

[TheSamDrummerBoy]

Agreed!

[opaqueman]

What exactly are the flaws? I haven't heard anything concrete, just vague generalities. (And aren't most if not all laws imperfect?)

[urubu715]

1. Teachers only have to be "skilled in an area". Who decides that?

2. Voucher Schools don't have to be accredited.

3. Millionaires who would already send their kids to private schools can get $500.

4. Poor parents can only receive a $3000 voucher, while private school tuition (not counting meals, transportation, uniforms, etc.) averages at least $4500.

5. Voucher schools are only required to have an audit every 5 years.  How much fraud can go on during that time?

[olp1ma]

Did you ever think that if public schools are "festering" that something should be done, beside having everyone jump ship? Vote yes for something that actually fixes public schools and doesn't leave it to the dogs. Additionally, if you think you'll have more control over a private school than a public school as a parent, you're kidding yourself. Private schools answer to no one.

[blockdudemd]

OK, then I challenge you to go to the same doctor no matter how he/she treats you, go to the same "district" hospital even if they don't specialize in your disease, go to the same lawyer even if his clients are dissatisfied, go to the same "district" restaurant even if the food is cold and the service terrible. Don't think you will carry through with the challenge.

[TheSamDrummerBoy]

It's about time someone posted something that actually points out the "actual" numbers. I hope people will take enough time to understand how bad this thing is. Something should be done to education in this state. Ref 1 isn't it!!! VOTE NO!

[TheSamDrummerBoy]

Oh yeah....... And the rich get richer...... We all get to pay for that voucher money through our taxes. Why should I have to pay for someone elses kid to go to private school? Especially when they (in theory) aren't paying for public education any more.

[lindarahldeen]

Great video.

[karacken2]

The same could be said about the groups that are for the vouchers. Why don't they just fund them with the money they spent promoting it?

[delaniehathaway]

Anything that takes power from "the government"???? Have you stopped to think that "the government" is all of us? We have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people; the biggest problem with government is apathy by the people.

[delaniehathaway]

If that is the case it is still the fault of the people, and a voucher program is not the answer.

[canadadayparade]

This is a wonderful video and makes perfect sense of why public schools are for the public and the teachers are trying to make a difference. As long as public school teachers are willing to spend hours and hours helping hundreds of students for 30K a year, god bless them and let private school students parents pay for their own "PRIVATE" education and stop complaining about costs.

[thebridgetface]

Public schools get their funding based on the number of students. With vouchers, you'll have less students & more funding per student. You won't need as many textbooks, computers, supplies, etc. And don't kid yourself, the school districts aren't going to pay you more money if the bill doesn't pass; You'll still get crappy pay. You should take it up with the schools to stop wasting money on sports programs so the funding will go where its needed.

[lumbermikey78]

Yes, the funding is based on number students, so it is impossible to get more money for less students. If the student leaves, so does the money for that student.

[Cpezo]

You are right in that schools get their funding per student, but the excess money will not stay in the schools. The legislation was not written this way...it needs to be added before it can pass.

[UtahTeacher]

Check my blog in the upper right. The nuts-and-bolts entries walk you through exactly where the money goes with links to the actual law and the impartial fiscal analysis.

[jerrytrim]

So, it costs the same if you remove a student. Does it cost the same to add a student? If what he is saying is true it shouldn't cost any more money to add students. This video is an outright lie. Obviously if there are less students it will cost less. If there are more students it will cost more.

[nitrohobby]

I agree. Sounds like some serious mismanagement of money. If the public school isn't paying at least 3000 of the 7000 per student cost for the 'actual education' then the Government school system is wasting my money.

[Dizzi45Z]

Mismanagement of money? Yeah, what school needs a building, utilities, a janitor, and extra curricular activities? Clearly adding an extra student to a class isn't what costs as much as establishing the school to begin with. This video explains reality in a much truer sense.

[letbushwin]

take a basic accounting class and figure out what fixed costs are idiot

[nitrohobby]

Government 'fixed' costs are always going to be more than private institution fixed costs. Our money could go a lot further. If a good private school costs $3-4000, why does it cost government $7000? I see no advantage from government managing our schools.

[Cpezo]

Good private schools cost more than 3-4000 dollars. And...most people do not even qualify for a full or even half voucher in the first place.

[UtahTeacher]

nitrohobby, I would be very interested in hearing what you and Jerry think money spent on 'actual education' would be. Check my blog for why that $7000 figure has never been true. There is a link in the description for this video.

[Cpezo]

Wrong...the schools only receive money for the students in the classroom. They do not get the remaining money for students leaving with a voucher. There is nothing written in this legislation that ensures the money stays in the schools. It goes into the general fund. It will not cost less or more...If a child moves to a different school his money does not go with him, but stays in the former school. Check the facts!!!

[jarvissteven]

Good video. The actual cost of rent at one Utah Charter school was 550,000 for this school year. It would be interesting to know what the cost of a building is considering all the bond debt for an average district school.

Vouchers definitely will harm the public school system.

[letbushwin]

this is an amazing video...thank you for making it

[basquebrat]

What a great video! Thank you for making this. You should try to get this on television; all the voters need to see this!

[kevjanes]

It's about time someone took the deception out of the oreo cookie ad. However, we should include the thousands of kids who are already in public schools and will take millions of "Oreos" from public schools without even "reducing class sizes" by one student. Vouchers will hurt public schools.