I hope that all the people that took and agreed to taking something formt his die from an extremly slow and painful thing as this is disrespectful you fucks...
I would rather have spent my time taking more video and stills to help figure out what happened. I am enamored by the Fitz but I wouldn't take anything from it. It is sad to see this pillaging. Even more sad to hear the idiots talk about illegality of the act and say "fuck it shoot it". Self incriminating dummies.
I've seen bodies on many documentaries over the years in ship wrecks, like the SS Emperor showed one of the skeletons of a crewman in his coveralls laying in the engine room. And how about all the u boat footage of remains? and when I was a kid in the mid 70's seeing National Geographic after the battle of Midway and Coral Sea , and seeing pics of hundrends of bones laying about the wrecks and all this was fine! A skeleton is what it is..Why should this ship be different eh!!!
Who the hell cares? American wreck in Canadian territory means it's ours. And what's wrong with taking a few taconite pellets? There's hundreds of thousands of them. No-one complains when items are removed from Titanic, or the many hundreds of German U-boats in the English channel.
I think they should recover objects from it to preserve it, They arent disturbing any graves, So I think they are justified in taking any objects from this site. Besides that ship was made in America.
i would dive on this ship and take everything i could get my hands on. Finders keepers, you have no right to keep treasure from the people. Leaving it to rot in the sea is lunacy.
@NHLHockeyfreak: It's an American (mostly) crew and ship. That's like saying if a Canadian ship sank on the side of Lake Huron that the US owns, that they would have ownership over it. Which is just bullshit.
@Downsight They would be allowed to if they wanted, its not Canadian territory, so they leave it at that.
Also, I meant that these guys diving were Canadian, the crew on the fitz were all American.Your not allowed to dive there anymore, since it has human remains in it
Who cares about a pile of iron ore? The wreck of the EF is an embarrassing commercial disaster due to thousands of cracked welds in her hull. The USCG never should have certified her in 75. It was cheaper to scrap her sister ship than repair it. If I had kin on the wreck, I'd want their remains brought to the surface for a proper burial far from the scene of the crime... especially if it's this easy to reach and recover with ROVs.
the only exception to the ministry of culture policy was when divers went to the wreck to retrieve the bell of the "fitz" for a memorial at i believe whitefish point and it was replaced with an identical bell with exception to having the 29 names of the men that went down with this ship and as crazy as it sounds when the bell reached the surface it rang on its own as if to say the sprirt of these brave men were with them
@Kawecki1217 True except she was not over loaded. Twenty Six thousand tons isn't near what she could carry. She was constrained by her draft where she was loaded, which is why they only put twenty six thousand tons in her. Any more and she would have grounded out, and as it was she had only inches to spare beneath her keel.
I know the song that Gordon lightfoot did about the wreck of the edmund fitzgerald..i know this is a true story..But why did they sink?..and did the recover any of the crew that was on board?..or did the recover anything that can help solve this sad situation?
I think if a diver finds a known,lost wreck they must Chart it & Not Touch anything & go report it 1st & ask the Family what there Wishes are,if they decided they would like the site Un-touched that should be upto them,if items are found in other places & the owner was lost at sea it should be given directly to the Family,I can't imagine if it were My family member,my thoughts go out to them...
If the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society (a non-profit) needed taconite to assure the success of the mission to retrieve the Bell then why didn't they ask for to be permitted by Canada? Most troubling is just two years earlier the GLSHS avoided prosecution by the MI Attorney General taking artifacts off wrecks (not the EF) by promising they would never take without permits again. Their mission statement should read "It's easier to beg for forgiveness then to ask for permission".
The footage starting at 1:30 says it all - "should we turn off the cameras and collect souvenirs?" Distinct is Larry Elliot's voice the GLSHS exPresident involved in the illegal pilfering of hundreds of artifacts from GL shipwrecks including the gold wedding band from the hand of "Erwin" on the Superior City. Is this not the profile of a graverobber? Shame on you Larry for soiling the memory of these fine men, as a news anchor and investigative reporter you should know better. Hypocrite.
My Grandfather died on the Fitz. My Mother, who received news of the Fitz while in class in High School, feels strongly that her Father's grave should be left alone. I am now studying law and I intend to pursue the sanctity of my Grandfather's grave, as well as some other issues involved with the sinking. What reason do the divers have to take items from this site? Furthermore, what have they done with the acquired items? I have my own answer, but I leave you with that.
I am familiar with your family's story and support your family's wishes.
From the comments on these videos it seems that those who still desire to dive her are jackass sport divers who are only looking for another point in their one man pissing contest and have no desire to contribute anything to any further understanding of the wreck or to the family's closure with their dive.
I am proud of the Ontario Government for trying to afford your family peace.
@TheRachelgomez i am regrettfully sorry that you lost a family member in this ordeal my uncle was killed in vietnam when i was two yrs old i never got the chance to know him so i hope you pursue your goal and kick some butt !
It was a private vessel manned by private citizens. Your tax dollars didn't pay anything into this misfortune. The family has asked that the Fitz and their men be left to rest, the government has agreed with their wishes.
No matter how important you think yourself or your curiousity it does not override these wishes.
If I was a family member of one of the dead, I would be extremely upset watching this video, of these guys stealing the taconite. This is no different than digging up somebodies grave. Man's ignorance never ceases to amaze me.
I don't want to seem like an over sensitive dick, but aren't these videos kind of like people who stop by traffic accidents to see the dead bodies. It is bad enough that these men died without a proper burial, but they died doing what they love and their bones are now commended to the sea. Leave their souls to rest in piece!!
i think that yes they should remove the bodies and give them a proper barrial they would never do that to a united states soldier they bring them back if this was my father in this terrible wreck i would push everything a could to bring the bodies out and let us have a proper barrial also it would be so cool to see these wrecked ships out of water in a museum im not trying to be ignorent or stupid but thats what i think im sorry if i upset people but i dont mean any harm at all to the brave lost
ya they didn't show shit worth watchin so why don't u let them rest in peace cause all your doin is dickin around and not doin any good so let the sailors of the great lake rest easy please
Maybe we ought to leave every vehicle involved in a deadly accident right in the ditch where the accident occured. That would serve two purposes: One being a memorial for the deceased, and two, traffic will probably slow down a lot if there are a lot of busted up cars in a particular area, making the roadways safer. If we have the technology and capability to clean up after humanities accidents, then what sense does it make to leave all that junk at the bottom of such a beautiful lake?
Being a mariner myself, I can say that a ship is never just a "ship." It is our home, and we take much pride in maintaining the vessel to which we are assigned. For something as tragic as the Fitz going down and the heartbreak which comes to all the family and friends of the men who sailed her, it's an even larger slap in the face when you see this video. It is a graveyard for 29 men who passed on doing what they loved, it is not a museum gift shop. To sail on the lakes is to understand...
While the removal of ANY objects, cargo or otherwise, from WITHIN any protected wreck should be viewed as a grievous crime, the gathering of cargo material that is outside the wreck (as displayed by models of the Edmund Fitzgerald wreck) is acceptable. Just look at the policy fro recovery of objects from the wreck of the Titanic, they can recover objects from the debris field as long as they do not touch objects residing within the wreck itself.
@g2rich The Fitz is not the Titanic. Canada claims jurisdiction over her wreck. The Ontario Ministry of Culture issued the archaeological license for this dive to the Fitz. which specified, "No silt, corrosion, or any other surface covering on or around the vessel, its equipment and machinery, shall be removed or disturbed."
@bnodurft that doesn't say any thing about a pieces of debris from around the wreck. Its only illeagal to remove things from a wreck if the owner of the ship states that it is, or its owend by the gov't. Ex. the Lusitania is owned by its orriginal insurance company. Ex2. Any german u boat sunk in american waters still technically belongs to the 3 reich. However the US still has legal obligations to protect it. It being a war grave. So by international meritime laws in no way can canada leagaly .
@9oden9 If you read the archaeological license, it is clear that the debris field cannot be disturbed. To review the license, see the website mentioned at the end of video.
@bnodurft i tried to open it but it i wasn't able to. Now iam not saying that these wreck divers aren't asshole grave robbers. Because god knows they are. But it wasn't really illegal because canada can not issue a license to dive something that isnt theirs. It would be like if i were to issue you a lisence to climb mount rushmoore. I could but i don't own so it wouldn't do anybody anygood.
@9oden9 Some say that the Fitz lies in American waters, others say that she lies on the International Boundary with part of the wreck in Canadian waters, and some claim that she is entirely in Canadian waters. The Canadian and U.S. governments seem to have agreed that Canada has jurisdiction over the wreck. See the Wikipedia article, "SS Edmund Fitzgerald" and the "Underwater Surveys" section of the article for information on the location of the Fitz wreck.
@bnodurft .. claim rights to it. Especially because its not a Gov't ship. Also they should no by allowing a mini sub to to go down there. Just the wash from the props will move dust and sediment. The taconite pilaging should be free to take. After the insurance co. Wrote it off.
@g2rich By Canadian law it is considered a grave. IIRC, the only reason the bell was allowed to be removed is because the families of all 29 men who died agreed to it.
It's called Pot Hunting (Illegally removing artificats from a designated Archeological site or shipwreck for moneitary gain) Titanic's artifiacts are worth a fortune on the Black Market owning to the ship's fame, however the wreck is in international waters and her owners went out of buisness so no one has legal claim to the site,
There are literally hundreds of shipwrecks in this area, and my question is this:
Are all Great Lakes wrecks afforded the same legal protection as the Fitz? If not, you have to wonder if special protection would have been granted to the site had Gordon Lightfoot never written that song.
@BenAliGtor The Ontario Heritage Act was amended in 2005 to provide special protection to the shipwrecks of the Fitzgerald, the USS Hamilton, and the USS Scourge because of their historical and cultural significance and because they contain human remains.
@bnodurft Ah, but how many humans' remains did they FIND in the Ol' Fitz? And where's it's engines? and radios from the pilot house? Unanswered questions... of all wreaks of that area... how exactly did it sink, why, and where, are their crews?... |\ *suspicious look*...
We have been astoundingly lucky in our great lake wrecks that response time in many, many cases was good enough to save all hands on deck. The Fitz, sadly, was not among the lucky.
@BenAliGtor The reason for the special protection is because there are literally human remains at this site. All the bodies on boared titanic have been eating away by marine life.
@yachtabaco That's all I'm really saying: Unlike remains on the high seas, those in fresh water will be preserved indefinately. So- Gordon Lightfoot songs or not- all should be protected.
@BenAliGtor no because it was a tragety, one of the biggest if not the biggest in the state of michigan, i would know cause i live in ann arbor. it was such a big deal we learned about it in 1st grade our teacher taught us about it and we read the book and whatnot. and its all fair game to take what you want from any wreck, idk about gerald but you can take what you want from others
@MrSluggo666 It is the type of license or permit the Canadian Ministry of Culture requires to conduct a dive to the Fitz. An archaeological license is required because the Fitz is a protected heritage site.
@youngdones I haven't updated my knowledge on it, but last I was really into the lore and wreck was that its not fully known why she went down. All 29 men died. Nothing to say why. The Edmund and the Anderson where coming up from Wisconsin heading to Detroit.. when roughly 16-20 miles away from Whitefish Bay in Canadian waters, she went down. There was a BAD gale that night. Rumors of botteming out on a rock to going down nose first, slams face first into the sea bed, snaps apart and sinks. :(
@ianrocon Go to the Wikipedia article, "SS Edmund Fitzgerald" and then click on the coordinates link (which displays incorrect data) and then click on the Map Quest link which lists the correct coordinates. The Fitz wreck is on the international border. The U.S. Coast Guard and the Canadians deliberately put out incorrect coordinates to protect the wreck site.
@ianrocon Map Quest is accurate in this case. It is using the coordinates that are recorded on the site maps that I received with this video footage which I got through a freedom of information request.
@ianrocon The official position of the U.S. and Canadian governments is that the Fitz lies in Canadian waters. You can obtain the "Wreck Site Reconstruction of Edmund Fitzgerald" site maps that include the actual coordinates through a Freedom of Information request to the Ontario Ministry of Culture. The coordinates show the wreck site on the international border. Fitz explorer Fred Shannon argues that part of the wreck is in U.S. waters and part is in Canadian waters.
Perhaps a zero tolerance in regards to what should or not should be collected in the vicinity of a ship wreck is the best policy..However, if 10 pounds of iron ore out of 26 thousand tons can be collected and given to the wives,son's.& daughters of the victims of the wreck I can't in good conscious object..But I'm not the law..
@gadgetable64 I would agree that collecting a few taconite pellets specifically for and at the request of the families of the dead should be acceptable, as was collecting the bell, but once a private group is allowed to collect any material at all from the wreck site, without permission and for the purpose of selling it to tourists, that sets a precedent that won't end at 10 pounds of taconite.
I say raise it. Show it to the world as a monument. No disrespect to those who died there pull it up and celebrate how brave they lived. Just an opinion, Simon from Ohio.
I thought Larry Elliot who was in charge of the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society was behind all this and not the society itself? Can you clearify this?
@bnodurft I have a question..on the web, there are pictures from 2005 of a ceremony at Zug Island. It appears several buckets of talconite were delivered to the ships intended destination. This event was well photgraphed and attended..if the removal of the pellets was illegal, how could this event have been sanctioned? Hope you can enlighten me...thanks
@24liberandos It is most likely that the taconite is not really part of the Fitz cargo. Taconite is common cargo for Great Lakes shipping. If the taconite was from the Fitz, it had to come from one of the submersible dives and most likely from the series of dives that included the dive shown in this video. I don't think the 2005 Zug Island ceremony was actually sanctioned by anyone other than the participants.
I WOULD love A SOUVENIR like so many people ??? and i have nicked meny in my time ?BUT WOULD NEVER STEAL EM OFF THE DEAD OR THEIR FAMILYS ?ONLY SUITS AND MIDDLE CLASS toeragz can do that ,.,.apparently >GOD DONT PAY BILLS WITH MONEY tho ?????????????????????//
Any diver that respects what he/she does (rec, or tec) should condon this organization. Never mind the legal jargin, do not touch the wreck, and do not remove anything.... plain and simple. This is the slogan of any good wreck diver I've met and respect.
This video along with the other one of this organization sponsoring a dive on the Superior City and disturbing human remains are disturbing. Don't give this organization your time or money...
@MrDiveDave Just to clarify - the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society is the organization that removed the taconite pellets from the Fitz wreck and disturbed/tampered with human remains on the wreck of the Superior City.
To Hell with the Governments......This is a piece of OUR History. There are those of us that want and need to see this wreck. No Government "Owns" it.
The PEOPLE Own this. If I had a Taconite Pellet I would cherish and display it with remembrance to all.
@RRYoungs Yes, and it's because "the people own this" that the government must provide protection for shipwrecks, grave sites, archeological sites, etc., to prevent wholesale plunder of those sites by private individuals for their own personal gain. Why is that difficult for some people to understand?
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
So someone goes to the bottom of a lake and removes 40 year old rusted shit no one cares about..How he FUCK is that protected by any law!..Only in dumbass america!
The wreck is actually protected by the Ontario Heritage Act. So that's Canada, not the US. And I'm sure the families still care about the watery grave of their fathers/sons/husbands who are still alive. My father died in 1972 and wouldn't want anyone disturbing his grave.
Oh, the politcs of the deads families. Boo Hoo someone took some taconite. It's about time we asign some blaim on Mc Soreley. IMO he put her on the bottom through complaciently & stupidly . This guy had NO business piloting a ship......
They violated the law. They committed a crime under the statute. That being said, I find nothing wrong with removal of a few cups of taconite pellets, connected with the actual moment in history when the iconic ship sank. They haven't removed personal effects, disturbed bones, or removed fixtures. There was so much taconite, it pulled the broken ship down like a stone itself. Nobody is going to miss it, least of all, the crew. Sorry, it just makes no sense to me to protect these pellets.
In a sense your right. However, I have worked around a lot of open graves, and the thought has crossed minds that those rings and jewelry on the deceased wouldn't be missed, so what's the harm..........?
May these ghouls be haunted at night. Any money made is blood money and is cursed in my opinion. I wouldn't touch it knowingly.
@haitipi Ghouls? I think you are being a bit emotional and "over the top". A golden ring or bracelet is a long way from thousands of tons of ore pellets. I wouldn't endorse stripping a corpse, but neither would I bury anyone wearing a watch, necklace, or other jewelry. It makes no sense. You are, of course, entitled to an opinion.
During WWII a British Cruiser was sunk carring tons of gold bars from the Soviet Union back to England. It rest in over 1000 feet of water and there are British war dead still onboard. Yet that wreck was salvaged and they recovered almost 95% of the gold bars. So the person who said it would be different if there was gold onboard was correct
The ship was the Edinburgh and it's 800 feet, sorry. They didn't salvage the ship, they just cut a hole to get inside. Money makes anything alright i guess.
This is bull crap. Those people should be charged to the full extent of the law. They stole from a gravesite of 29 men who died doing their jobs. They should be put in jail those dumb people.
@BB2433 I completely agree - this is desecration of the dead. The Edmund Fitzgerald's crew are still on board. It is comparable to raiding someone's tomb.
Over a number of years the families of lost Fitz crewmembers appealed to the Canadian government to protect her wreck. The Ontario Heritage Act protects the Fitz and other historic shipwrecks from salvaging and artifact removal. Mining taconite pellets from the Fitz wreck violated MacInnis archaeological license for the 1994 dives.
Why exactly does this wreck deserve such extreme measures of legal protection? Because a song was written about it?
There are many ship wrecks around the world, many which had more lives lost than the Edmund Fitzgerald and which are perfectly legal to salvage for their cargo or structure.
It's one thing to give some protection to human remains, but why taconite?
It's totally normal to salvage the cargo from a ship like that.
my grandfather had friends that went down with the edmund fitzgerald he told me that the last time he seen them was at a pub in east chicago(i believe) right before the ship left
At least for the sake of dignity and honor, all this post wreck trivial shit- doesn't have anything to do with the actual wreck, that happened Nov 10,'75. The Fitz's crew and the Fitz, will always be front and center!!!!!
It's the crew and the boat, that counts!!!!! All you corporate butt kissers, corporate game players, and general cold hearted zombies, are hopeless!
Not 100% sure but, I believe it's been illegal to dive on the Fitzgerald since 1995 as for removing a few taconite pellets of the 26,000 tons of them she sank with, it may seem trivial, but these rules are in place for a reason. At least at 530 feet it's more than a little difficult to dive on.
As a great lakes diver I am appalled at incidents such as this and the GLPS disturbing of human remains on the Superior City wreck. As for this one, anyone that lives on the northshore need only walk down any railway and can get as many pellets as you want. Wrecks should be left as is, where is. Its what draws us to dive in cold water. As for it just being cargo, 29 men died to transport that cargo. Its a shame that the societys meant to protect these wrecks ae the ones destroying them.
The song originally appeared on Lightfoot's 1976 album, Summertime Dream, and was later released as a single. The single reached #2 on the Billboard pop chart in November 1976, making it Lightfoot's second most successful single (in terms of chart position), following "Sundown", which reached number one in 1974. "Wreck" peaked at number 40 in the UK Singles Chart. (After the sinking not before)
Gordon Lightfoot first released his ballad, "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" in a 1976 album called "Summertime Dream". The SS Edmund Fitzgerald sank November 10, 1975.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
I can't beleive that no one has connected Gordon Lightfoot to the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald. Think about it. what are the chances of the boat going down exactly as depicted in the song that he released two years before the incident.
A so-called historical society went to the Fitz for "humanitarian" reasons and then took souvenirs. They violated their archaeological permit and their public promises to family members to treat the wreck as a grave site. H-m-m-m, who is the phoniest of them all?
The ships bell has already been salvaged from the wreck. If the Fitz had been carrying 26,000 tons of gold pellets nobody will convince me the Canadian government would not have been squaking for it's perceived share of the booty as would have the State of Michigan, the salvagers and the steamship company. Enough with the phony indignation over a bucket full of taconite.
Come on people, A bunch of bleeding heart dipshits are worried about a scoop of taconite ,there was enough of that shit on there to give every man ,woman and child on the planet a spoonful. Not to mention all that is scattered on the lake floor. Only a select few will ever get to venture to the actual wreck. For the rest of us, having some tangible piece of history to look at (or hold) would be nice. They aren't compromising the structural integrity of the wreck, or disturbing human remains.
i still get goosebumps everytime i see the fitz...i dont think they should ever bring her up, 1 it is a a tomb in itself...and more than respect, it would lose its luster...as terrible as that sounds its just something really eerie about a boat that big being claimed by a lake
There are no plans to even attempt to bring up the Fitz. When they found it, it was split completely in half, with the parts facing different directions.
@crystalscan2002 The Roy Jodrey is by far more favorible for salvage. The Jodrey has an unloading boom , only a moderate sized hole in the bow, and best yet, no human remains.
no offense to the crew but that really wasnt THEIR taconite to begin with. It really isnt as personal as you make it seem and i see the views on how the dead should be respected and to that i have my own question...are the dead really that sensitive?...and by that i mean how do we for sure KNOW what a posthumous person thinks and/or feels...theres no way to know or tell its a matter of opinion..if i was in a shipwreck id probably want the boat to be brought up and restored and kept as a monument
You know the sad part about this wether it is morally right or wrong, once you do it where does it end? You open the flood gates. Look aty the Titanic! Anyone that removes ANYTHING from the fitz should be tied to the wreck with a sign on them GRAVEROBBER!!!
Idk...i think that respect for the dead is silly...they feel nothing, hear nothing, see nothing and are nothing. Personally if I was one of the guys on this ship, I wouldn't give a damn whether or not my remains or resting place was disturbed.
It's all in the matter of principle. It is a social faux pas to go around taking stuff from the dead, especially when relatives of the deceased are around to know about it. Would you like it if I went to your grandmother's grave and dug her up to take her jewelry? What's the harm? She doesn't need it anymore. How would you feel?
Honestly, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. She doesn't need it, and quite simply put, she never did. I'm not saying it's stupid to mourn or anything. Some people are very senstitive to that kind of thing, I'm just saying that I have a very bleak view on death and the dead. I personally don't believe that they're out there somewhere beyond the grave, merely that they have ceased to exist. Hence, my reverence for the dead is just that...non existent.
Ah, I gotcha. To be honest, I am not that outraged that they took some taconite pellets either. Sure, they were looting goods on a ship that encountered tragedy, but I think it would have been worse if they had checked that dead guy's pockets, ya know? It's not like they took any of the lost crew's personal effects. I do not condone the fact they stole taconite to resell, though. If anyone were to recover it, it should be whomever it was going to in the first place.
No I can't say that I have...but my folks have...my great uncle wayne was beheaded in the war...My great grandfather was run over by a train....nothin insane...but my family's always regarded death in that way....it is what it is...nothing can change it, and the victims are gone wherever ther grave is...so it never mattered to me.
I should hope that they have lost that license of theirs.
After hearing what they must subscribe to in order to retain that license is should deffinetly be revoked. Publicly. An apology should come soon thereafter.
This is no better than graverobbing.
A license, any license should be taken seriously. You need not be a doctor handling the living.
These people had a license to handle the dead. Possibly that should carry more weight.
hahah are you dumb? I mean you may as well say this about all those ship wrecks with treasures on them that are being pillaged for every jewels and coins they have.....Wanna tell me what the difference is buddy? As I am sure there are a lot of people that died on those ships!
You have made a very good point, now I have to think about why I said that. Basically it rubs me really wrong. Who is to say what is ok or not? The Fitz or an ancient pirate ship - does it matter? What the f do I know? Thanks for making me think. Take all that minutia out of it - friend, foe, recent, ancient, history, archeology, sea, dirt. What is left? What rubs me the wrong way. Really irks me.
If those guys didn't have respect for the lives lost, or for their charter / permit - how can they respect their own trade...... further - come on now help me folks - themselves. Tone it down and at the very least they are totally unprofessional.You are not the first to call me dumb but I still don't believe it. Yes, I am very thick. I will happily be your buddy if you can enlighten me, but if we are going to hang out you will need to learn how to argue intelligently
Well, at the current rate of removal and the cost of each dive, about 15,000,000 more years and a cost of a $trillion dollars will remove the remaining taconite. There is also the question as to whether the taconite is the property of the final buyer to whom it was being shipped, or the company that owned the Fitz.
The real issue is the removal of a very few items, such as a bell, that was formally and legally removed! The taconite is a canard...
It is truly a travesty those men died...but dont you think that maybe we should be cleaning up the bottom of our lakes?...who knows if there isnt a whole crapload of oil in there just waiting for enough rusting through of its metal tank to come rising to the surface. If someone dies in a car accident do we leave them in the vehicle they died in, and just leave the vehicle there?
hey, do you think that is fair? lives were lost on the largest freighter on the great lakes. I dont think its a souvenir. family members just want to let it go and so does the crew of the edmund fitzgerald. I have no connection to any of them but, they tell me, let them rest in peace. Mcsorly and the crew went down with their ship, they way it should be
sorry, but lives are lost in all sorts of shipwecks like the "Brother Jonathan" it was a gold ship almost very died but sence there was gold they dug it up.
if the fitzgerald had gold on board do you think that for even a second they would leave it alone?
I'm not saying this is right but you can't have double standard for these things!
I agree many lives were lost on the great lakes. I don't agree with the fact of disturbing a grave site for anything. I know others disagree with me but, I don't believe money is more important than recognizing the lives that were lost. I just seems like its more of seeing how much one can get for other peoples grief. Yes, I am very partial to the Fitzgerald, but, when reading about the Fitz I have learned about many others lost and I do cry when I read about another freighter going down.
The archelogy vs. graverobber debate here is missing an important component: Archeologists that don't follow the rules are graverobbers (or breaking the law). Don't believe me? Try going to a cemetery with a shovel and start digging. These guys from Whitefish Point (who are they?) clearly know they are in the wrong.
this is absolutely ridiculous... archaeology is useful and some could say necessary even. But how is this any different than looting a gravesite? At the very least its unethical... especially when done for "souvenirs"
I hope that all the people that took and agreed to taking something formt his die from an extremly slow and painful thing as this is disrespectful you fucks...
TheDrummingBertman 2 months ago
I would rather have spent my time taking more video and stills to help figure out what happened. I am enamored by the Fitz but I wouldn't take anything from it. It is sad to see this pillaging. Even more sad to hear the idiots talk about illegality of the act and say "fuck it shoot it". Self incriminating dummies.
thehossman1 2 months ago
The fucking government will cover anything up to cover their ass
LeeMike233 3 months ago
Wow. I never saw this before. I agree with those who say this is complete expolitation and a disgrace.
vomit49894 5 months ago
I've seen bodies on many documentaries over the years in ship wrecks, like the SS Emperor showed one of the skeletons of a crewman in his coveralls laying in the engine room. And how about all the u boat footage of remains? and when I was a kid in the mid 70's seeing National Geographic after the battle of Midway and Coral Sea , and seeing pics of hundrends of bones laying about the wrecks and all this was fine! A skeleton is what it is..Why should this ship be different eh!!!
RFKFANTS67 5 months ago
@firstcowtails btw, my first comment is directed at you, ya know, the one below.
2012Castle 5 months ago
Who the hell cares? American wreck in Canadian territory means it's ours. And what's wrong with taking a few taconite pellets? There's hundreds of thousands of them. No-one complains when items are removed from Titanic, or the many hundreds of German U-boats in the English channel.
2012Castle 5 months ago
what's everyone arguing aboot? what's all the fuss aboot, eh? take off, hoser
stratobagster 6 months ago
I think they should recover objects from it to preserve it, They arent disturbing any graves, So I think they are justified in taking any objects from this site. Besides that ship was made in America.
firstcowtails 6 months ago
i would dive on this ship and take everything i could get my hands on. Finders keepers, you have no right to keep treasure from the people. Leaving it to rot in the sea is lunacy.
AntaresInScorpius 6 months ago
A couple of pieces of taconite ....not really a big deal considering that their are millions of them.
FallFanCan 7 months ago
F**K Canada, she is an AMERICAN Vessel.
fiberglasshammer 7 months ago
@fiberglasshammer She sank in Canadian waters...
NHLHockeyfreak 7 months ago
@NHLHockeyfreak so Fucking what! what the fuck is Canada gonna do about it. Nothing!
firstcowtails 6 months ago
@firstcowtails These guys ARE Canadians
NHLHockeyfreak 6 months ago
@NHLHockeyfreak: It's an American (mostly) crew and ship. That's like saying if a Canadian ship sank on the side of Lake Huron that the US owns, that they would have ownership over it. Which is just bullshit.
Downsight 6 months ago
@Downsight They would be allowed to if they wanted, its not Canadian territory, so they leave it at that.
Also, I meant that these guys diving were Canadian, the crew on the fitz were all American.Your not allowed to dive there anymore, since it has human remains in it
NHLHockeyfreak 6 months ago
Your comment is just the type that gives Americans such a bad reputation.
bryanemeny 4 months ago
No one remembers ships that don't sink
partlycloud 8 months ago
Who cares about a pile of iron ore? The wreck of the EF is an embarrassing commercial disaster due to thousands of cracked welds in her hull. The USCG never should have certified her in 75. It was cheaper to scrap her sister ship than repair it. If I had kin on the wreck, I'd want their remains brought to the surface for a proper burial far from the scene of the crime... especially if it's this easy to reach and recover with ROVs.
longlakeshore 8 months ago
some say that she sank due to her sitting too low in the water but the only person who knows what happened went down with her
roadwolf2 9 months ago
Has anyone tried to find the 29 skulls in the wreck? If so,where are they?
sallymaggiespotty 9 months ago
If my family member went down on a ship, I would give anything to have a something specific to remember them by. but fortunately they haven't.
Tallshipdreamer 10 months ago
the only exception to the ministry of culture policy was when divers went to the wreck to retrieve the bell of the "fitz" for a memorial at i believe whitefish point and it was replaced with an identical bell with exception to having the 29 names of the men that went down with this ship and as crazy as it sounds when the bell reached the surface it rang on its own as if to say the sprirt of these brave men were with them
kix96fan 11 months ago
@yachtabaco ohh didnt know thanks for the information
Kawecki1217 11 months ago
IMO , this is no different then robbing someones grave . Shameful .
ComradeAgopian 11 months ago
it sank because of a storm on lake superior it also was overloaded and no none survived this horrible wreck....hope that helps some
Kawecki1217 1 year ago
@Kawecki1217 True except she was not over loaded. Twenty Six thousand tons isn't near what she could carry. She was constrained by her draft where she was loaded, which is why they only put twenty six thousand tons in her. Any more and she would have grounded out, and as it was she had only inches to spare beneath her keel.
yachtabaco 1 year ago
I know the song that Gordon lightfoot did about the wreck of the edmund fitzgerald..i know this is a true story..But why did they sink?..and did the recover any of the crew that was on board?..or did the recover anything that can help solve this sad situation?
Midnightryder7 1 year ago
Take ships parts, personal items should remain.
WillyVictor 1 year ago
I think if a diver finds a known,lost wreck they must Chart it & Not Touch anything & go report it 1st & ask the Family what there Wishes are,if they decided they would like the site Un-touched that should be upto them,if items are found in other places & the owner was lost at sea it should be given directly to the Family,I can't imagine if it were My family member,my thoughts go out to them...
tashaLuv1 1 year ago
If the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society (a non-profit) needed taconite to assure the success of the mission to retrieve the Bell then why didn't they ask for to be permitted by Canada? Most troubling is just two years earlier the GLSHS avoided prosecution by the MI Attorney General taking artifacts off wrecks (not the EF) by promising they would never take without permits again. Their mission statement should read "It's easier to beg for forgiveness then to ask for permission".
lakesuperiorpaddler 1 year ago
The footage starting at 1:30 says it all - "should we turn off the cameras and collect souvenirs?" Distinct is Larry Elliot's voice the GLSHS exPresident involved in the illegal pilfering of hundreds of artifacts from GL shipwrecks including the gold wedding band from the hand of "Erwin" on the Superior City. Is this not the profile of a graverobber? Shame on you Larry for soiling the memory of these fine men, as a news anchor and investigative reporter you should know better. Hypocrite.
lakesuperiorpaddler 1 year ago
My Grandfather died on the Fitz. My Mother, who received news of the Fitz while in class in High School, feels strongly that her Father's grave should be left alone. I am now studying law and I intend to pursue the sanctity of my Grandfather's grave, as well as some other issues involved with the sinking. What reason do the divers have to take items from this site? Furthermore, what have they done with the acquired items? I have my own answer, but I leave you with that.
TheRachelgomez 1 year ago
@TheRachelgomez
I am familiar with your family's story and support your family's wishes.
From the comments on these videos it seems that those who still desire to dive her are jackass sport divers who are only looking for another point in their one man pissing contest and have no desire to contribute anything to any further understanding of the wreck or to the family's closure with their dive.
I am proud of the Ontario Government for trying to afford your family peace.
God bless.
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@TheRachelgomez i am regrettfully sorry that you lost a family member in this ordeal my uncle was killed in vietnam when i was two yrs old i never got the chance to know him so i hope you pursue your goal and kick some butt !
hemicudaboy1 1 year ago
i agree muskypucker.....the bottom of the sea is not a grave......it's history and it's open for the public. ..
bradbrizzletheman 1 year ago
@bradbrizzletheman
It was a private vessel manned by private citizens. Your tax dollars didn't pay anything into this misfortune. The family has asked that the Fitz and their men be left to rest, the government has agreed with their wishes.
No matter how important you think yourself or your curiousity it does not override these wishes.
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
If I was a family member of one of the dead, I would be extremely upset watching this video, of these guys stealing the taconite. This is no different than digging up somebodies grave. Man's ignorance never ceases to amaze me.
whistlelips 1 year ago
@bnodurft Surely there is a clause that defines "around the wreck." How FAR around the wreck??
I am against salvaging the Fitzgerald as well, but that must be clarified so that no one can take advantage of it.
HarvestmanMan 1 year ago
I don't want to seem like an over sensitive dick, but aren't these videos kind of like people who stop by traffic accidents to see the dead bodies. It is bad enough that these men died without a proper burial, but they died doing what they love and their bones are now commended to the sea. Leave their souls to rest in piece!!
jkoff76 1 year ago 7
as i have said before SHIP YOUR IRON ORE BY RAIL!!!!!!!!!! its not as dangerous and there wouldnt be 29 greaving widows!
locodriver107 1 year ago
i think that yes they should remove the bodies and give them a proper barrial they would never do that to a united states soldier they bring them back if this was my father in this terrible wreck i would push everything a could to bring the bodies out and let us have a proper barrial also it would be so cool to see these wrecked ships out of water in a museum im not trying to be ignorent or stupid but thats what i think im sorry if i upset people but i dont mean any harm at all to the brave lost
walker7261981 1 year ago
@walker7261981 your very wrong with the coment of they wouldnt do that with a soldier check your history start with the uss arizona
truckertag 1 year ago
how many pellets did they bring up?
24liberandos 1 year ago
ya they didn't show shit worth watchin so why don't u let them rest in peace cause all your doin is dickin around and not doin any good so let the sailors of the great lake rest easy please
hgolenberke 1 year ago
@hgolenberke A-men
whistlelips 1 year ago
@buckranger1 agree
eeeewd33 1 year ago
It's not right.
shelski72 1 year ago
Maybe we ought to leave every vehicle involved in a deadly accident right in the ditch where the accident occured. That would serve two purposes: One being a memorial for the deceased, and two, traffic will probably slow down a lot if there are a lot of busted up cars in a particular area, making the roadways safer. If we have the technology and capability to clean up after humanities accidents, then what sense does it make to leave all that junk at the bottom of such a beautiful lake?
buckranger1 1 year ago
Being a mariner myself, I can say that a ship is never just a "ship." It is our home, and we take much pride in maintaining the vessel to which we are assigned. For something as tragic as the Fitz going down and the heartbreak which comes to all the family and friends of the men who sailed her, it's an even larger slap in the face when you see this video. It is a graveyard for 29 men who passed on doing what they loved, it is not a museum gift shop. To sail on the lakes is to understand...
SuperGilly22 1 year ago 20
While the removal of ANY objects, cargo or otherwise, from WITHIN any protected wreck should be viewed as a grievous crime, the gathering of cargo material that is outside the wreck (as displayed by models of the Edmund Fitzgerald wreck) is acceptable. Just look at the policy fro recovery of objects from the wreck of the Titanic, they can recover objects from the debris field as long as they do not touch objects residing within the wreck itself.
g2rich 1 year ago 5
@g2rich The Fitz is not the Titanic. Canada claims jurisdiction over her wreck. The Ontario Ministry of Culture issued the archaeological license for this dive to the Fitz. which specified, "No silt, corrosion, or any other surface covering on or around the vessel, its equipment and machinery, shall be removed or disturbed."
bnodurft 1 year ago 3
@bnodurft that doesn't say any thing about a pieces of debris from around the wreck. Its only illeagal to remove things from a wreck if the owner of the ship states that it is, or its owend by the gov't. Ex. the Lusitania is owned by its orriginal insurance company. Ex2. Any german u boat sunk in american waters still technically belongs to the 3 reich. However the US still has legal obligations to protect it. It being a war grave. So by international meritime laws in no way can canada leagaly .
9oden9 2 months ago
@9oden9 If you read the archaeological license, it is clear that the debris field cannot be disturbed. To review the license, see the website mentioned at the end of video.
bnodurft 2 months ago
@bnodurft i tried to open it but it i wasn't able to. Now iam not saying that these wreck divers aren't asshole grave robbers. Because god knows they are. But it wasn't really illegal because canada can not issue a license to dive something that isnt theirs. It would be like if i were to issue you a lisence to climb mount rushmoore. I could but i don't own so it wouldn't do anybody anygood.
9oden9 2 months ago
@9oden9 Some say that the Fitz lies in American waters, others say that she lies on the International Boundary with part of the wreck in Canadian waters, and some claim that she is entirely in Canadian waters. The Canadian and U.S. governments seem to have agreed that Canada has jurisdiction over the wreck. See the Wikipedia article, "SS Edmund Fitzgerald" and the "Underwater Surveys" section of the article for information on the location of the Fitz wreck.
bnodurft 2 months ago
@bnodurft .. claim rights to it. Especially because its not a Gov't ship. Also they should no by allowing a mini sub to to go down there. Just the wash from the props will move dust and sediment. The taconite pilaging should be free to take. After the insurance co. Wrote it off.
9oden9 2 months ago
@g2rich By Canadian law it is considered a grave. IIRC, the only reason the bell was allowed to be removed is because the families of all 29 men who died agreed to it.
78WildBill 1 year ago
@g2rich Right. I think the familys would like to have had a few pellets for rememberance....
CSXer 8 months ago
@g2rich
It's called Pot Hunting (Illegally removing artificats from a designated Archeological site or shipwreck for moneitary gain) Titanic's artifiacts are worth a fortune on the Black Market owning to the ship's fame, however the wreck is in international waters and her owners went out of buisness so no one has legal claim to the site,
snakes3425 3 months ago
Shameful and disgusting; rotten jerks.
hovanti 1 year ago
Scum like them should suffer the same fate as the innicent souls onboard the Fitzgerald.....
johnmtl 1 year ago
There are literally hundreds of shipwrecks in this area, and my question is this:
Are all Great Lakes wrecks afforded the same legal protection as the Fitz? If not, you have to wonder if special protection would have been granted to the site had Gordon Lightfoot never written that song.
BenAliGtor 1 year ago
@BenAliGtor The Ontario Heritage Act was amended in 2005 to provide special protection to the shipwrecks of the Fitzgerald, the USS Hamilton, and the USS Scourge because of their historical and cultural significance and because they contain human remains.
bnodurft 1 year ago
@bnodurft Ah, but how many humans' remains did they FIND in the Ol' Fitz? And where's it's engines? and radios from the pilot house? Unanswered questions... of all wreaks of that area... how exactly did it sink, why, and where, are their crews?... |\ *suspicious look*...
JeffHendrie 1 year ago
@BenAliGtor good point!
locodriver107 1 year ago
@BenAliGtor
We have been astoundingly lucky in our great lake wrecks that response time in many, many cases was good enough to save all hands on deck. The Fitz, sadly, was not among the lucky.
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@BenAliGtor The reason for the special protection is because there are literally human remains at this site. All the bodies on boared titanic have been eating away by marine life.
1981CrueHead 1 year ago
@1981CrueHead And what of other Great Lakes shipwrecks that likewise contain human remains?
BenAliGtor 1 year ago
@BenAliGtor I would think yes, and that it is more about the people whose lost their lives than the song, I would hope anyway.....
yachtabaco 1 year ago
@yachtabaco That's all I'm really saying: Unlike remains on the high seas, those in fresh water will be preserved indefinately. So- Gordon Lightfoot songs or not- all should be protected.
BenAliGtor 1 year ago
@BenAliGtor no because it was a tragety, one of the biggest if not the biggest in the state of michigan, i would know cause i live in ann arbor. it was such a big deal we learned about it in 1st grade our teacher taught us about it and we read the book and whatnot. and its all fair game to take what you want from any wreck, idk about gerald but you can take what you want from others
xXL1gHt1TuP420Xx 10 months ago
i am see in broadcast discovery wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. Unmitigated disaster.
wojtal28 1 year ago
What is an" arkalogical license to dive? "
MrSluggo666 1 year ago
@MrSluggo666 It is the type of license or permit the Canadian Ministry of Culture requires to conduct a dive to the Fitz. An archaeological license is required because the Fitz is a protected heritage site.
bnodurft 1 year ago
@bnodurft Oh, i thought she said arka a logical not archeological, thanks.
MrSluggo666 1 year ago
What caused the ship to capsize?
youngdones 1 year ago
@youngdones I haven't updated my knowledge on it, but last I was really into the lore and wreck was that its not fully known why she went down. All 29 men died. Nothing to say why. The Edmund and the Anderson where coming up from Wisconsin heading to Detroit.. when roughly 16-20 miles away from Whitefish Bay in Canadian waters, she went down. There was a BAD gale that night. Rumors of botteming out on a rock to going down nose first, slams face first into the sea bed, snaps apart and sinks. :(
CelticArchangel 1 year ago
I bet the divers were just looking to make a quick buck by selling the taconite pellets as suviners
jabathehutt5555 1 year ago
Quite eree isn't it?
jabathehutt5555 1 year ago
Comment removed
ltuomela 1 year ago
@ltuomela She sank just out side of whitefish bay Ontario Canada. I think it lies approx 2 miles north of the border.
ianrocon 1 year ago
@ianrocon Go to the Wikipedia article, "SS Edmund Fitzgerald" and then click on the coordinates link (which displays incorrect data) and then click on the Map Quest link which lists the correct coordinates. The Fitz wreck is on the international border. The U.S. Coast Guard and the Canadians deliberately put out incorrect coordinates to protect the wreck site.
bnodurft 1 year ago
@bnodurft Map quest isn't accurate, it show my house in the middle of lake simcoe ontario
ianrocon 1 year ago
@ianrocon Map Quest is accurate in this case. It is using the coordinates that are recorded on the site maps that I received with this video footage which I got through a freedom of information request.
bnodurft 1 year ago
@bnodurft what coordinates do you have?
ianrocon 1 year ago
@bnodurft I can't find anything or any map showing it in u.s. waters, every map and documentation i have says canadian.
ianrocon 1 year ago
@ianrocon The official position of the U.S. and Canadian governments is that the Fitz lies in Canadian waters. You can obtain the "Wreck Site Reconstruction of Edmund Fitzgerald" site maps that include the actual coordinates through a Freedom of Information request to the Ontario Ministry of Culture. The coordinates show the wreck site on the international border. Fitz explorer Fred Shannon argues that part of the wreck is in U.S. waters and part is in Canadian waters.
bnodurft 1 year ago
@bnodurft what ever you say
ianrocon 1 year ago
Perhaps a zero tolerance in regards to what should or not should be collected in the vicinity of a ship wreck is the best policy..However, if 10 pounds of iron ore out of 26 thousand tons can be collected and given to the wives,son's.& daughters of the victims of the wreck I can't in good conscious object..But I'm not the law..
gadgetable64 1 year ago
@gadgetable64 I would agree that collecting a few taconite pellets specifically for and at the request of the families of the dead should be acceptable, as was collecting the bell, but once a private group is allowed to collect any material at all from the wreck site, without permission and for the purpose of selling it to tourists, that sets a precedent that won't end at 10 pounds of taconite.
markhinr 1 year ago
I say raise it. Show it to the world as a monument. No disrespect to those who died there pull it up and celebrate how brave they lived. Just an opinion, Simon from Ohio.
bad74maverick 1 year ago
I thought Larry Elliot who was in charge of the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society was behind all this and not the society itself? Can you clearify this?
deerslayer2446 1 year ago
@deerslayer2446 The Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society was a major participant in these dives conducted under the license of Joe MacInnis.
bnodurft 1 year ago
@bnodurft Thanks for the clarification, that is to sad, and to hear what they did to the crew of the superior city!
deerslayer2446 1 year ago
@bnodurft I have a question..
24liberandos 1 year ago
@bnodurft I have a question..on the web, there are pictures from 2005 of a ceremony at Zug Island. It appears several buckets of talconite were delivered to the ships intended destination. This event was well photgraphed and attended..if the removal of the pellets was illegal, how could this event have been sanctioned? Hope you can enlighten me...thanks
24liberandos 1 year ago
@24liberandos It is most likely that the taconite is not really part of the Fitz cargo. Taconite is common cargo for Great Lakes shipping. If the taconite was from the Fitz, it had to come from one of the submersible dives and most likely from the series of dives that included the dive shown in this video. I don't think the 2005 Zug Island ceremony was actually sanctioned by anyone other than the participants.
bnodurft 1 year ago
I WOULD love A SOUVENIR like so many people ??? and i have nicked meny in my time ?BUT WOULD NEVER STEAL EM OFF THE DEAD OR THEIR FAMILYS ?ONLY SUITS AND MIDDLE CLASS toeragz can do that ,.,.apparently >GOD DONT PAY BILLS WITH MONEY tho ?????????????????????//
honkydudeman 1 year ago
Any diver that respects what he/she does (rec, or tec) should condon this organization. Never mind the legal jargin, do not touch the wreck, and do not remove anything.... plain and simple. This is the slogan of any good wreck diver I've met and respect.
This video along with the other one of this organization sponsoring a dive on the Superior City and disturbing human remains are disturbing. Don't give this organization your time or money...
MrDiveDave 1 year ago 2
@MrDiveDave Just to clarify - the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society is the organization that removed the taconite pellets from the Fitz wreck and disturbed/tampered with human remains on the wreck of the Superior City.
bnodurft 1 year ago
To Hell with the Governments......This is a piece of OUR History. There are those of us that want and need to see this wreck. No Government "Owns" it.
The PEOPLE Own this. If I had a Taconite Pellet I would cherish and display it with remembrance to all.
RRYoungs 1 year ago
@RRYoungs Yes, and it's because "the people own this" that the government must provide protection for shipwrecks, grave sites, archeological sites, etc., to prevent wholesale plunder of those sites by private individuals for their own personal gain. Why is that difficult for some people to understand?
markhinr 1 year ago
They wanted the taconite for souvenirs? And they knew taking it was illegal, and they didn't care that it was being recorded?
People are nuts.
Exterminance 1 year ago
Sad, why would anyone even want that as a "souvenir"? Leave those guys to rest in peace.
shizzle5150 1 year ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
So someone goes to the bottom of a lake and removes 40 year old rusted shit no one cares about..How he FUCK is that protected by any law!..Only in dumbass america!
porn1978 1 year ago
Hi @porn1978:
The wreck is actually protected by the Ontario Heritage Act. So that's Canada, not the US. And I'm sure the families still care about the watery grave of their fathers/sons/husbands who are still alive. My father died in 1972 and wouldn't want anyone disturbing his grave.
dustbunnieboo 1 year ago 3
Oh, the politcs of the deads families. Boo Hoo someone took some taconite. It's about time we asign some blaim on Mc Soreley. IMO he put her on the bottom through complaciently & stupidly . This guy had NO business piloting a ship......
ffmak124x 1 year ago
Dirty dogs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
caryasiam 1 year ago
they license says not even to touch the silt
the first few seconds the sub crew can be clear saying "this is an underwater mausolium"
they know exactly they disturb the dead
they should be disturbed in they death for eternity, is a fitting punishment
gouls
roslynny 1 year ago 3
They violated the law. They committed a crime under the statute. That being said, I find nothing wrong with removal of a few cups of taconite pellets, connected with the actual moment in history when the iconic ship sank. They haven't removed personal effects, disturbed bones, or removed fixtures. There was so much taconite, it pulled the broken ship down like a stone itself. Nobody is going to miss it, least of all, the crew. Sorry, it just makes no sense to me to protect these pellets.
PRR5406 1 year ago 2
@PRR5406
In a sense your right. However, I have worked around a lot of open graves, and the thought has crossed minds that those rings and jewelry on the deceased wouldn't be missed, so what's the harm..........?
May these ghouls be haunted at night. Any money made is blood money and is cursed in my opinion. I wouldn't touch it knowingly.
haitipi 1 year ago
@haitipi Ghouls? I think you are being a bit emotional and "over the top". A golden ring or bracelet is a long way from thousands of tons of ore pellets. I wouldn't endorse stripping a corpse, but neither would I bury anyone wearing a watch, necklace, or other jewelry. It makes no sense. You are, of course, entitled to an opinion.
PRR5406 1 year ago
During WWII a British Cruiser was sunk carring tons of gold bars from the Soviet Union back to England. It rest in over 1000 feet of water and there are British war dead still onboard. Yet that wreck was salvaged and they recovered almost 95% of the gold bars. So the person who said it would be different if there was gold onboard was correct
kennhi2008 2 years ago 2
The ship was the Edinburgh and it's 800 feet, sorry. They didn't salvage the ship, they just cut a hole to get inside. Money makes anything alright i guess.
Goofus5453 2 years ago 3
That's just as worse as the 1987 expection to the Titanic by the French.
TitanicExpert 2 years ago
This is bull crap. Those people should be charged to the full extent of the law. They stole from a gravesite of 29 men who died doing their jobs. They should be put in jail those dumb people.
BB2433 2 years ago 23
That statement all depends on your point of view. Merchant ships are not covered by the War Graves convention. Perhaps they should be.
TheUSCam 2 years ago
@BB2433 I completely agree - this is desecration of the dead. The Edmund Fitzgerald's crew are still on board. It is comparable to raiding someone's tomb.
frtw4428 1 year ago
Over a number of years the families of lost Fitz crewmembers appealed to the Canadian government to protect her wreck. The Ontario Heritage Act protects the Fitz and other historic shipwrecks from salvaging and artifact removal. Mining taconite pellets from the Fitz wreck violated MacInnis archaeological license for the 1994 dives.
bnodurft 2 years ago 2
@bnodurft These people are parasites.
badslick 1 year ago
Why exactly does this wreck deserve such extreme measures of legal protection? Because a song was written about it?
There are many ship wrecks around the world, many which had more lives lost than the Edmund Fitzgerald and which are perfectly legal to salvage for their cargo or structure.
It's one thing to give some protection to human remains, but why taconite?
It's totally normal to salvage the cargo from a ship like that.
DrBuzz0 2 years ago 4
i think thay should leave it alone but what happend to salvage rights i bet if it was full of gold it would be different
tenn1983 2 years ago
my grandfather had friends that went down with the edmund fitzgerald he told me that the last time he seen them was at a pub in east chicago(i believe) right before the ship left
sam960708 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Who cares if they take stuff? No one else is using it!
chazfensk 2 years ago
At least for the sake of dignity and honor, all this post wreck trivial shit- doesn't have anything to do with the actual wreck, that happened Nov 10,'75. The Fitz's crew and the Fitz, will always be front and center!!!!!
It's the crew and the boat, that counts!!!!! All you corporate butt kissers, corporate game players, and general cold hearted zombies, are hopeless!
shakedydogshake 2 years ago
How is objecting to the disturbance of a gravesite kissing corporate butt???
bnodurft 2 years ago
Because it's always used to take advantage of regular folks, to get away with illegal bullshit!
shakedydogshake 2 years ago
Not 100% sure but, I believe it's been illegal to dive on the Fitzgerald since 1995 as for removing a few taconite pellets of the 26,000 tons of them she sank with, it may seem trivial, but these rules are in place for a reason. At least at 530 feet it's more than a little difficult to dive on.
Torch425 2 years ago 4
As a great lakes diver I am appalled at incidents such as this and the GLPS disturbing of human remains on the Superior City wreck. As for this one, anyone that lives on the northshore need only walk down any railway and can get as many pellets as you want. Wrecks should be left as is, where is. Its what draws us to dive in cold water. As for it just being cargo, 29 men died to transport that cargo. Its a shame that the societys meant to protect these wrecks ae the ones destroying them.
mdemar1978 2 years ago 14
@mdemar1978 Well walking down railroad tracks is a federal offense, so no dont do that.
coborn35 1 year ago
The song originally appeared on Lightfoot's 1976 album, Summertime Dream, and was later released as a single. The single reached #2 on the Billboard pop chart in November 1976, making it Lightfoot's second most successful single (in terms of chart position), following "Sundown", which reached number one in 1974. "Wreck" peaked at number 40 in the UK Singles Chart. (After the sinking not before)
ColinKraut 2 years ago 2
Gordon Lightfoot first released his ballad, "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" in a 1976 album called "Summertime Dream". The SS Edmund Fitzgerald sank November 10, 1975.
bnodurft 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I can't beleive that no one has connected Gordon Lightfoot to the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald. Think about it. what are the chances of the boat going down exactly as depicted in the song that he released two years before the incident.
whiskeyspray 2 years ago
A so-called historical society went to the Fitz for "humanitarian" reasons and then took souvenirs. They violated their archaeological permit and their public promises to family members to treat the wreck as a grave site. H-m-m-m, who is the phoniest of them all?
bnodurft 2 years ago
I have seen recent surveys that suggest the bow(?) actually is in Michigan waters, not like salvage will be allowed but still.
chaostheoryfilms 2 years ago
The ships bell has already been salvaged from the wreck. If the Fitz had been carrying 26,000 tons of gold pellets nobody will convince me the Canadian government would not have been squaking for it's perceived share of the booty as would have the State of Michigan, the salvagers and the steamship company. Enough with the phony indignation over a bucket full of taconite.
sockettuem 2 years ago
Come on people, A bunch of bleeding heart dipshits are worried about a scoop of taconite ,there was enough of that shit on there to give every man ,woman and child on the planet a spoonful. Not to mention all that is scattered on the lake floor. Only a select few will ever get to venture to the actual wreck. For the rest of us, having some tangible piece of history to look at (or hold) would be nice. They aren't compromising the structural integrity of the wreck, or disturbing human remains.
11harrison11 2 years ago
The mighty Fitz was mighty indeed and earned her laurels the hard way as a work-a-day ship scratching out a hard labor living on the lakes.
In the end though she was just a behemoth of steel and inanimate as such just as a house is an assemblage of timber and not a home.
It is a family which makes a house a home and the crew of the Fitz was the true life of that great ship.
Now and forever the Edmund Fitzgerald is a grave, a sacred and hallowed place and her proud crew deserves their peace...
DanOblacksmith 2 years ago
i agree with whittiejp
669berserker 2 years ago
i still get goosebumps everytime i see the fitz...i dont think they should ever bring her up, 1 it is a a tomb in itself...and more than respect, it would lose its luster...as terrible as that sounds its just something really eerie about a boat that big being claimed by a lake
duecetrygstad2 2 years ago
There are no plans to even attempt to bring up the Fitz. When they found it, it was split completely in half, with the parts facing different directions.
phantomeagle 2 years ago
that ship still could be salavge
crystalscan2002 2 years ago
after more than 30 years under water i doubt it man.
dirtyjew1974 2 years ago
@crystalscan2002 The Roy Jodrey is by far more favorible for salvage. The Jodrey has an unloading boom , only a moderate sized hole in the bow, and best yet, no human remains.
Porygonseizureman 10 months ago
no offense to the crew but that really wasnt THEIR taconite to begin with. It really isnt as personal as you make it seem and i see the views on how the dead should be respected and to that i have my own question...are the dead really that sensitive?...and by that i mean how do we for sure KNOW what a posthumous person thinks and/or feels...theres no way to know or tell its a matter of opinion..if i was in a shipwreck id probably want the boat to be brought up and restored and kept as a monument
ericj874 2 years ago
You know the sad part about this wether it is morally right or wrong, once you do it where does it end? You open the flood gates. Look aty the Titanic! Anyone that removes ANYTHING from the fitz should be tied to the wreck with a sign on them GRAVEROBBER!!!
whittiejp 2 years ago
Fuck Michigan.. Michigan is the state of retards
rodallen2020 2 years ago
Fucking moron.
84ironhide 2 years ago
Idk...i think that respect for the dead is silly...they feel nothing, hear nothing, see nothing and are nothing. Personally if I was one of the guys on this ship, I wouldn't give a damn whether or not my remains or resting place was disturbed.
Cowboycurtis888 2 years ago 3
It's all in the matter of principle. It is a social faux pas to go around taking stuff from the dead, especially when relatives of the deceased are around to know about it. Would you like it if I went to your grandmother's grave and dug her up to take her jewelry? What's the harm? She doesn't need it anymore. How would you feel?
BlitztheDragon 2 years ago
Honestly, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. She doesn't need it, and quite simply put, she never did. I'm not saying it's stupid to mourn or anything. Some people are very senstitive to that kind of thing, I'm just saying that I have a very bleak view on death and the dead. I personally don't believe that they're out there somewhere beyond the grave, merely that they have ceased to exist. Hence, my reverence for the dead is just that...non existent.
Cowboycurtis888 2 years ago
Ah, I gotcha. To be honest, I am not that outraged that they took some taconite pellets either. Sure, they were looting goods on a ship that encountered tragedy, but I think it would have been worse if they had checked that dead guy's pockets, ya know? It's not like they took any of the lost crew's personal effects. I do not condone the fact they stole taconite to resell, though. If anyone were to recover it, it should be whomever it was going to in the first place.
BlitztheDragon 2 years ago
Lost anyone close to you in tragic circumstances?
Factnotfictionpeople 2 years ago
No I can't say that I have...but my folks have...my great uncle wayne was beheaded in the war...My great grandfather was run over by a train....nothin insane...but my family's always regarded death in that way....it is what it is...nothing can change it, and the victims are gone wherever ther grave is...so it never mattered to me.
Cowboycurtis888 2 years ago
Fair enough - we're all entitled to our views. Thanks for sharing yours. :-)
Factnotfictionpeople 2 years ago
my grandpa had fiends on the edmund fitzgerald that went down with the ship
sam960708 2 years ago
Leave it up to me and we take another ride in that mini sub. I would chain their buts to the leeward rail and come back alone.
SHAME, SHAME, SHAME ON YOU!
1refeer1 2 years ago
WTF?
I should hope that they have lost that license of theirs.
After hearing what they must subscribe to in order to retain that license is should deffinetly be revoked. Publicly. An apology should come soon thereafter.
This is no better than graverobbing.
A license, any license should be taken seriously. You need not be a doctor handling the living.
These people had a license to handle the dead. Possibly that should carry more weight.
They pissed on it.
1refeer1 2 years ago
hahah are you dumb? I mean you may as well say this about all those ship wrecks with treasures on them that are being pillaged for every jewels and coins they have.....Wanna tell me what the difference is buddy? As I am sure there are a lot of people that died on those ships!
VancouverCanucksRock 2 years ago
You have made a very good point, now I have to think about why I said that. Basically it rubs me really wrong. Who is to say what is ok or not? The Fitz or an ancient pirate ship - does it matter? What the f do I know? Thanks for making me think. Take all that minutia out of it - friend, foe, recent, ancient, history, archeology, sea, dirt. What is left? What rubs me the wrong way. Really irks me.
Disrespect.
1refeer1 2 years ago
If those guys didn't have respect for the lives lost, or for their charter / permit - how can they respect their own trade...... further - come on now help me folks - themselves. Tone it down and at the very least they are totally unprofessional.You are not the first to call me dumb but I still don't believe it. Yes, I am very thick. I will happily be your buddy if you can enlighten me, but if we are going to hang out you will need to learn how to argue intelligently
1refeer1 2 years ago 2
Well, at the current rate of removal and the cost of each dive, about 15,000,000 more years and a cost of a $trillion dollars will remove the remaining taconite. There is also the question as to whether the taconite is the property of the final buyer to whom it was being shipped, or the company that owned the Fitz.
The real issue is the removal of a very few items, such as a bell, that was formally and legally removed! The taconite is a canard...
spartonboat1 2 years ago
It is truly a travesty those men died...but dont you think that maybe we should be cleaning up the bottom of our lakes?...who knows if there isnt a whole crapload of oil in there just waiting for enough rusting through of its metal tank to come rising to the surface. If someone dies in a car accident do we leave them in the vehicle they died in, and just leave the vehicle there?
ericj874 2 years ago 3
right on!
Spencer481 2 years ago
Footage from 1:36-1:2:07 says it all. Shoot the f***ing thing? Nice
"Yeah, I could collect some more taconite if they want it. Is that kosher to get that for souvenirs for people? "
"Just dont tell anybody [inaudible] probably not a bad idea for the society and its friends"
"I wasnt there that day (with glee?)".
"Do you not want it shot joe."
"Probably not. Eh, it dosent matter shoot the f***ng thing [inaudible] that a pretty good view."
lakesuperiorpaddler 2 years ago
hey, do you think that is fair? lives were lost on the largest freighter on the great lakes. I dont think its a souvenir. family members just want to let it go and so does the crew of the edmund fitzgerald. I have no connection to any of them but, they tell me, let them rest in peace. Mcsorly and the crew went down with their ship, they way it should be
setokaibaismine 2 years ago
Comment removed
ericj874 2 years ago
sorry, but lives are lost in all sorts of shipwecks like the "Brother Jonathan" it was a gold ship almost very died but sence there was gold they dug it up.
if the fitzgerald had gold on board do you think that for even a second they would leave it alone?
I'm not saying this is right but you can't have double standard for these things!
Spencer481 2 years ago
I agree many lives were lost on the great lakes. I don't agree with the fact of disturbing a grave site for anything. I know others disagree with me but, I don't believe money is more important than recognizing the lives that were lost. I just seems like its more of seeing how much one can get for other peoples grief. Yes, I am very partial to the Fitzgerald, but, when reading about the Fitz I have learned about many others lost and I do cry when I read about another freighter going down.
setokaibaismine 2 years ago
The archelogy vs. graverobber debate here is missing an important component: Archeologists that don't follow the rules are graverobbers (or breaking the law). Don't believe me? Try going to a cemetery with a shovel and start digging. These guys from Whitefish Point (who are they?) clearly know they are in the wrong.
lakesuperiorpaddler 2 years ago
this is absolutely ridiculous... archaeology is useful and some could say necessary even. But how is this any different than looting a gravesite? At the very least its unethical... especially when done for "souvenirs"
zombiehunter1977 2 year