Easy answer again, Yossi. In Judiasm, the sacrificial lamb had to be w/o spot or blemish. The blood of that innocent animal was assigned by G-d to take away the sins of the Jewish people. According to your analogy, you're asking how could this be? How could an innocent person in a court of law take the place of a really bad person? Same question: "How could the sacrifice of an innocent lamb take away the sins of Israel? Answer; because G-d said so and He accepted that kind of sacrifice.
Also Orthodox Judaism (in early writings) has said that Isaiah 53 is about Moshiach and not the nation of Israel. We have to also realize that Yeshua (the "Y" guy) mission was to reign over the house of Jacob Luke 1:33 and he could not break written Torah laws of marriage Deut 24:1 so he being the groom to the bride "Israel" had to die to restore the house to it's original form. A picture of this is found in Hosea 1:2. How does Orthodoxy put together the restoration of the house?
@paulgem123 Ok may I get a link or refrence to where I can find such a refrence about Isaiah 53? I do not see how Mr J possibly fits the bill for that chapter but im willing to see the refrence.
So, we see that a man has to die for his own sin. We also see that in Number 15:22-35 the penalty of defiantly/rebellious sin is death and there was no animal sacrifice for this type of sin. So since there is no Temple and even if there were there is no animal sacrifice for that type of sin. What is the solution? We must look at Lev 16 and Numbers 19 (Red Heifer) and study Temple service to find the answers not towards Christianity.
@VioletKitty411 Thanks lilly. The Torah also says that there are 3 ways a person can have forgivness. Animal sacrifice covers the unintentional sins, Repentence also brings forgivness and charity also covers.
@KingOystar We very much believe in repentance. Without it, the sacrifice which was for all mankind (John 3:16) does not extend to us. Also, we believe in good works, not as a means of redemption, but as evidence thereof. Faith without works is dead (James 2). We are called to care for the orphan and the widow. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach, Yeshua ben Yosef)
@KingOystar From a legal standpoint, he was the son of Joseph. Joseph was admonished not to take marry as wife (ie not to have sexual relations with her) until after her purification. Jesus was recognized as the son of Joseph in the eyes of man, though we recognize that that was adoptive. Just as Moses was the son of Pharoah's daughter, legally, Christ was also adopted. This also sets up for the emphasis God has on adoption as gentiles are adopted into the family of God.
@VioletKitty411 does not mean he is a decendent of Yosef. please consider this. if a Cohen adopts a child does that child automaticly become a Cohen and have the obligations of the priesthood? no. well just somthing to think about. If I am making you sad I am sorry but I just can not see Jesus as our Moshiach.
@KingOystar I understand your position. It does not reduce your value to me as a person. However, His NAME (son of Joseph) and legal relationship was recognized. Matthew 13:55 "Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?" My question: Isn't that Cohen child being devalued? It was through an adopted child they were freed from Egypt, and an adopted child they were spared the wrath of Haman. This clearly shows God's heart.
@VioletKitty411 Exactly, on Yom Kippur the scapegoat carried away the sins and is still today how they believe their sins are forgiven (for the nation of Israel). In The Complete Artscroll Siddur (prayer book) page 823 This is my exchange, this is my substitute, this is my atonement; This rooster will go to its death, which I will enter and go to a good , long life, and to peace. published July 2009.
@KingOystar You can be against it but according to certain rabbinal decrees you cannot go against their rulings. If it made it to a Sidur then it must have merit in their eyes
@KingOystar An Altar is required. But you have to give them some credit because they are desperately and honestly seeking atonement and realize it requires blood.
Ezekiel 18 “The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
in Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people regarding the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the person who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, “Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in
O.k. I know your heart is sincere. Let's look at this question you say a guy commits a horrible sin and someone who has no sin steps up and takes his place and the family of the victims look at the situation as a injustice. Right? That's what you said. First we have to look at it from the only authority you will accept Orthodox Judaism I assume. So the question really is "Is this a concept of Judaism?"
Easy explanation. That's why the Bible says that G-d's ways are not our ways. You're making an earthly comparison and saying "why doesn't it compare to G-d's Heavenly way." G-d isn't like us in this sense.
@KingOystar Not to mention "Justice, justice shall you seek and the multiple verses speaking of His throne being a foundation of justice & righteousness....bottom line is that the xian view of mashiach isn't a concept in Hebrew scripture. It was adopted, seized up & used throughout history for the manipulation of mankind.
Easy answer again, Yossi. In Judiasm, the sacrificial lamb had to be w/o spot or blemish. The blood of that innocent animal was assigned by G-d to take away the sins of the Jewish people. According to your analogy, you're asking how could this be? How could an innocent person in a court of law take the place of a really bad person? Same question: "How could the sacrifice of an innocent lamb take away the sins of Israel? Answer; because G-d said so and He accepted that kind of sacrifice.
Genesis2Jesus 1 month ago
Also Orthodox Judaism (in early writings) has said that Isaiah 53 is about Moshiach and not the nation of Israel. We have to also realize that Yeshua (the "Y" guy) mission was to reign over the house of Jacob Luke 1:33 and he could not break written Torah laws of marriage Deut 24:1 so he being the groom to the bride "Israel" had to die to restore the house to it's original form. A picture of this is found in Hosea 1:2. How does Orthodoxy put together the restoration of the house?
paulgem123 1 month ago
@paulgem123 Ok may I get a link or refrence to where I can find such a refrence about Isaiah 53? I do not see how Mr J possibly fits the bill for that chapter but im willing to see the refrence.
KingOystar 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@KingOystar I will send you several.
paulgem123 1 month ago
@KingOystar I also have to notes to the video I sent you so you can have a printed copy of all the references he uses if you care to have them.
paulgem123 1 month ago
So, we see that a man has to die for his own sin. We also see that in Number 15:22-35 the penalty of defiantly/rebellious sin is death and there was no animal sacrifice for this type of sin. So since there is no Temple and even if there were there is no animal sacrifice for that type of sin. What is the solution? We must look at Lev 16 and Numbers 19 (Red Heifer) and study Temple service to find the answers not towards Christianity.
paulgem123 1 month ago
Remember that the Jews believed that an animal without blemish (ie sinless) could atone for the sins of man.
BUT I think the deeper concern of yours is the nature of Justice. The Christian walk recognizes justice, mercy and grace.
Justice is getting a punishment you deserve (going to hell for your sins)
Mercy is NOT getting a punishment you deserve (not going to hell)
Grace is getting a reward you DO NOT deserve (going to heaven)
God is Justice...but He is also Mercy and Grace.
Hope that helps.
VioletKitty411 1 month ago
@VioletKitty411 Thanks lilly. The Torah also says that there are 3 ways a person can have forgivness. Animal sacrifice covers the unintentional sins, Repentence also brings forgivness and charity also covers.
KingOystar 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@KingOystar We very much believe in repentance. Without it, the sacrifice which was for all mankind (John 3:16) does not extend to us. Also, we believe in good works, not as a means of redemption, but as evidence thereof. Faith without works is dead (James 2). We are called to care for the orphan and the widow. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach, Yeshua ben Yosef)
VioletKitty411 1 month ago
@VioletKitty411 If Yeshu was born of a "virgin" how is he from Yosef?
KingOystar 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@KingOystar From a legal standpoint, he was the son of Joseph. Joseph was admonished not to take marry as wife (ie not to have sexual relations with her) until after her purification. Jesus was recognized as the son of Joseph in the eyes of man, though we recognize that that was adoptive. Just as Moses was the son of Pharoah's daughter, legally, Christ was also adopted. This also sets up for the emphasis God has on adoption as gentiles are adopted into the family of God.
VioletKitty411 1 month ago
@VioletKitty411 does not mean he is a decendent of Yosef. please consider this. if a Cohen adopts a child does that child automaticly become a Cohen and have the obligations of the priesthood? no. well just somthing to think about. If I am making you sad I am sorry but I just can not see Jesus as our Moshiach.
KingOystar 1 month ago
@KingOystar I understand your position. It does not reduce your value to me as a person. However, His NAME (son of Joseph) and legal relationship was recognized. Matthew 13:55 "Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?" My question: Isn't that Cohen child being devalued? It was through an adopted child they were freed from Egypt, and an adopted child they were spared the wrath of Haman. This clearly shows God's heart.
VioletKitty411 1 month ago
@VioletKitty411 Exactly, on Yom Kippur the scapegoat carried away the sins and is still today how they believe their sins are forgiven (for the nation of Israel). In The Complete Artscroll Siddur (prayer book) page 823 This is my exchange, this is my substitute, this is my atonement; This rooster will go to its death, which I will enter and go to a good , long life, and to peace. published July 2009.
paulgem123 1 month ago
@paulgem123 So are we to believe that a rooster is a more suitable sacrifice than the Lamb of God?
paulgem123 1 month ago
@paulgem123 Im against the modern practice of sacrifceing the Rooster before Yom Kippur since we do not have the temple at this time.
KingOystar 1 month ago
@KingOystar You can be against it but according to certain rabbinal decrees you cannot go against their rulings. If it made it to a Sidur then it must have merit in their eyes
paulgem123 1 month ago
@KingOystar An Altar is required. But you have to give them some credit because they are desperately and honestly seeking atonement and realize it requires blood.
paulgem123 1 month ago
@paulgem123 Not in my estimation. Nothing beats the Lamb!
VioletKitty411 1 month ago
@VioletKitty411 Yes, you are right! but we must look at all angles and have understanding with our brothers and sisters who think differently.
paulgem123 1 month ago
Ezekiel 18 “The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
paulgem123 1 month ago
in Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people regarding the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the person who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, “Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in
paulgem123 1 month ago
O.k. I know your heart is sincere. Let's look at this question you say a guy commits a horrible sin and someone who has no sin steps up and takes his place and the family of the victims look at the situation as a injustice. Right? That's what you said. First we have to look at it from the only authority you will accept Orthodox Judaism I assume. So the question really is "Is this a concept of Judaism?"
paulgem123 1 month ago
Easy explanation. That's why the Bible says that G-d's ways are not our ways. You're making an earthly comparison and saying "why doesn't it compare to G-d's Heavenly way." G-d isn't like us in this sense.
Genesis2Jesus 1 month ago
@Genesis2Jesus Thanks for your answer but I also beleive G-d says the innocent cant die for the guilty.
KingOystar 1 month ago
@KingOystar, please state your Biblical reference to that passage. I'll respond later; have to leave in a few minutes.
Genesis2Jesus 1 month ago
@Genesis2Jesus I ment to say in the Tanakh it says no dying for another mans sins.
Ezekiel 18:20.
KingOystar 1 month ago
@KingOystar Not to mention "Justice, justice shall you seek and the multiple verses speaking of His throne being a foundation of justice & righteousness....bottom line is that the xian view of mashiach isn't a concept in Hebrew scripture. It was adopted, seized up & used throughout history for the manipulation of mankind.
BornInTzyon 1 month ago