The Maple Leaf Forever (High Audio)

[broadband01]

god save the queen,and respect to our canadian brothers,from britain

[PatchesRips]

It's wonderful to hear this as a piano solo. :) I have to admit, though, I much prefer the modern lyrics to the original ones.

[pwnyourpuzzhole]

Bring back the old flag and the old anthem!

[91amp]

And joined in love together,

The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,

The Maple Leaf Forever.

[whisperhog]

Many, many Americans consider Canada to be our best friend. (In spite of the idiotic morons that run our government.)

[Mayfordian]

There is much to be said for piano versions of familiar tunes; its how we heard them as youngesters, years ago.

[Kamibambiraptor]

It's true; I think I first played this piece on the piano when I was around 11 or 12 years old. :-)

[cicero1453]

C'mon, I want my pictures of the surface of Mars! :D

[Kamibambiraptor]

Next time! :-) ;-)

(Actually, a google image search turned up a good number of pictures of the surface of Mars. Hmmmmm.....)

[amripley1991]

Muir's lyrics are showing their age, but otherwise are just fine. Unlike "O Canada", which is, I think, rather vague and insipid, this song is a proper expression of our national history. It shows where Canada has come from, and what we have to build on. Like "The Star Spangled Banner" and "Le Marseilles", "The Maple Leaf Forever" is a patriotic expression founded in legends of hard struggle, clever thinking, and stories of men and women working together to build national glory.

[PatchesRips]

@amripley1991 "It shows where Canada has come from"

It once represented that, but even then, partially and badly. It represents Canada far less accurately today inasmuch as British ethnicity in this country is claimed by something like 2/5 of the population.

A song about where Canadians have come from, and what we have to build on, must today cast the net far, far wider than that. And that was true even when the song was written. Where are the French or First Nations in it, except as victims?

[titanicmasters]

why didnt this become our anthem,? its a song about our national symbol...?

[Cliodule]

The lyrics were too specifically British-Canadian, and therefore unsuitable for such a diverse country. The first verse, for example, refers to the conquest of Canada by the British in 1759. The second refers to battles in Upper Canada during the War of 1812, and the fourth makes reference to England, Scotland, and Ireland. Personally, I like the tune, but no one has ever come up with a satisfactory replacement for Muir's lyrics.

[titanicmasters]

ahh, okay lol

[kanatasur2]

@Cliodule I agree. The lyrics are too British-Canadian. And true no one has come up w/ a satisfactory replacement for Muir's lyrics. His are passionate, stirring. Today's are politcally correct and insipid. Still as much as I love this anthem my citizenry belongs also to our French Canadian compatriots who gave our land its name and first permanent settlers.The English confiscated their land and sent them to Lousiana, shelled Quebec city and subjected them. O Canada unites where this divides...

[Falwren]

@kanatasur2

Need you forget the atrocities committed by the French during the Seven Years War, such as planning the massacre at Fort William Henry with the Hurons after the British surrender.

There is nothing wrong with the original lyrics. The French lost the Plains of Abraham 251 years ago. Get over it;.

[PatchesRips]

@Falwren It was a quarter of a millennium ago. YOU get over it. If you still think that's what Canada's all about, quite frankly, this isn't your country anymore. The original lyrics are an embarrassment; that's why no one's heard them in public for over 50 years.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips It's still part of what Canada is about. As long as there those who are loyal, the British Empire exists to this day. The Original lyrics aren't heard in public because Quebec would explode with rage, not because nobody would like to hear them.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "the British Empire exists to this day"

What, are you dialing this stuff in from 1950 or something? Get over it. The Empire bit the dust when we told Britain we wouldn't support them on the Suez. That was it.

"The Original lyrics aren't heard in public because Quebec would explode with rage"

Wow, imagine that, millions of CANADIANS who don't see much "Canadian" about this song supposedly about Canada! Yeah... hence the new lyrics. EXACTLY the point I've been making, thanks.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips The Suez only highlighted the political separation between Canada and the UK. The fact that I exist and believe what I believe proves that there are Canadians who still believe in close ties with the UK.

When I said Quebec, I was referring to the groups of people in Quebec who identify themselves as separate, or discrediting Canadian values, namely their cultural minister. I doubt that all of the Canadian Quebecois people would be strongly opposed to this song.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "or discrediting Canadian values"

Oh, you get to define what's "Canadian" and what isn't, do you? And you're surprised some of the want to separate?

There are still lots of federalists in Quebec. But I can guarantee you, a song that gloats about the subjugation of their ancestors 260 years ago does NOT strengthen those ties or increase their fellow-feeling for the rest of this country. It's the kind of thing that could doom it if there's another referendum.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Wow. I don't define what is Canadian, but some of them make statements acknowledging how they do not acknowledge Canadian values, i.e. Quebec's Culture Minister is quoted as saying: 'Multiculturalism may be a Canadian value, but it sure isn't a Quebecois one' I think I am correct in claiming that they discredit Canadian Values. This song does not gloat about the subjugation of the french living in Quebec, and it was never intended to. The composer specifically stated this.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "I think I am correct in claiming that they discredit Canadian Values"

You're not. That statement does not discredit Canadian values. What it does is postulate that the values of Quebeckers are different from the rest of us. Hardly a surprise when you think it's just peachy to sing about their defeat. What do you expect?

"

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips How does it not discredit Canadian Values? It's actively slapping the federal government's immigration policy in the face. It's an anti-Canadian statement, which serves only to isolate Quebec. When they start claiming that they are different from the rest of Canada and somehow deserve to be treated differently it is an active attempt to disregard the authority of the Canadian government, the equality implied amongst provinces, and is entirely unacceptable.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "How does it not discredit Canadian Values?"

You find anyone differing from you "discrediting"? The statement was that they have different values, at least according to one person.

"It's an anti-Canadian statement"

No, it isn't. It's a statement of differing emphasis on the matter of multiculturalism between how 27 million English-speakers in an English-speaking continent view the matter as opposed to 8 million French-speakers in that same context.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips By giving French-speakers more rights and freedoms, you are actively working against a number of principles of Canada, and I'd like to think the Canadian people, such as , and most notably, equality. Why should a french-speaking province have the right to act against the Canadian government when other provinces can't? Why can francophones be anglophobic, yet anglophones can't be francophobic? We should all be equal - Quebec is a part of Canada, and thus Canadian values should be

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips by default Quebecois values as well. As a part of Canada, it should not be able to to dictate its own policy independent from the federal government, just like mandarin speakers cannot claim that multiculturalism is not a Mainland Chinese-Canadian value.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "As a part of Canada, it should not be able to to dictate its own policy independent from the federal government"

Yeah. There are allllll kinds of separatists who would entirely agree with you. Then they'd turn around and say THAT'S why Quebec has to leave Canada: it has different values that cannot be accommodated within it, so it must be without it. Anglophones who insist there's only one way to be Canadian, and one set of values, are the useful idiots of Quebec separatism.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips I don't believe in giving them preferential treatment, as I don't believe in giving myself preferential treatment. If you believe in inequality, that's your personal decision.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 I used to think like you do. But I'm older now, and I can imagine what it's like from someone else's point of view.

Francophones don't OWE it to us to remain in a political union with us. They are different, culturally, linguistically, sociologically, and philosophically. I recognize they have some ties of sentiment with us, and that's probably what's saved us. But you ask too much. If you won't make room they need for them to be who they are, they'll vote their own room.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips I'm asking them to respect the right of the Federal Government, and to respect Canadian policy. All I want is equality. They are free to govern themselves however they wish, and to protest every single decision made by the federal government. After the decision is made, however, I expect for them to respect it, like all other Canadians. To use the horrific terms of 'Mosaic' and 'Melting Pot', I am advocating a 'Mosaic'. Everyone can be whatever they like, as long as the are canadian

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "All I want is equality."

Well that ISN'T what they want; they want the means to defend their culture, language, and the things that are important to them, but less so to the rest of Canada. The rest of us can either make provision for that within Canada (largely by ceding powers not required by other provinces, who have no such need), or eventually they'll make provision for it by LEAVING Canada.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Well then, that's just ridiculous. How anyone can be expected to agree to give other people more than them in a society where equality is intended to be a part of the law is ridiculous. Quebec needs to be as willing to compromise as the rest of Canada.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 Countries all over the world have asymmetrical federal systems, special cases, different statuses. It's how they maintain cohesion among peoples where your "one size fits all" nationality doesn't work. We happen to be one of those countries, and thankfully, it hasn't been governed by people with your views in recent history... or by now, we wouldn't have a country.

Every day Quebec stays in Canada is a compromise. And I'm grateful for it.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Other than a personal attack against me, what else was in the above statement?

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 An education on Canadian Realpolitik.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips cool story bro

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "This song does not gloat about the subjugation of the french living in Quebec, and it was never intended to."

It does, and it was. It begins with the destruction of New France, and explicitly glories the man who brought it about FOR bringing it about. The composer, Muir, was a foreign-born anti-Catholic Orangeman who wrote it to remind Canadians, British and French, who they were respectively. The reference to "the lily" had to be welded on by others with a blush years later.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips The destruction of New France can be seen as the first step in the creation of what is now Canada, and is simply a logical place to start a song. The rest your statement is false, please at least look up the song on Wikipedia before claiming to be an expert.

"Muir was attempting to express that under the Union Flag the British and French were united as Canadians."

"he[Muir] revised the lyrics of the first verse"

"According to other accounts, this was actually the original wording"

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "The destruction of New France can be seen as the first step in the creation of what is now Canada"

It can be, if one is willfully ignorant of history, yes. So could last Sunday morning, I suppose.

"According to other accounts"

Such as? Yeah, I can read Wikipedia, too. Opinions are a dime a dozen. What's indisputable is what we actually DO have: a song that glories in the subjugation of a people by force and does NOT include them in the first published version or performance.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips I still strongly disagree with the subjugation point. The creation of the current nation of Canada, under the British system of government, can honestly be seen as being created with the British control over Quebec, and the subsequent expansion thereafter.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "I still strongly disagree with the subjugation point."

Doesn't matter how YOU feel about it; you're not likely to separate from Canada on the basis of it. Well, they are, so I'd say it's THEIR feelings on the matter that trump.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "I doubt that all of the Canadian Quebecois people would be strongly opposed to this song."

Then you haven't lived here very long or you've been living under a bridge since 1960. Twice in my lifetime they have voted on leaving this country, and very nearly did the second time, and you think stuff like this doesn't matter to them? For God's sake, wake up. >:(

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Well, allow me to put it to you this way. I have numerous friends in Quebec, many of whom consider themselves to be loyal subjects of HM QEII, and none of whom oppose the Monarchy or ties to Britain. Additionally, consider the reception that the royal tours have had in Quebec - they have been positive, some of them overwhelmingly so. It is also important to note that this song is not about subjugating Quebec. Lundy's Lane and Queenston Heights have nothing to do with Quebec.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "I have numerous friends in Quebec"

And I have numerous relatives there, and in franco-Ontario. You can be loyal to Canada and still not want your nose publicly rubbed in the military subjugation of your ancestors.

"consider the reception that the royal tours have had in Quebec - they have been positive"

Not in my lifetime; not since before the visit in 1964.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Please inform me of the subjugation. I honestly do not believe that they were subjugated at all, and in recent years, have been treated excessively well, with Quebec having more power than any other province.

HMQEII's tour last year was not met with mass contempt in Quebec. At any rate, no significant negative reaction was reported by anybody.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "treated excessively well"

This very phrasing is all the evidence of subjugation you need. It's what an apologist would say of his slaves, or animals penned in a zoo. It characterizes the supposedly indulgent treatment of someone who, perforce, claims the privilege and power to do otherwise, were he not such a sweetheart. It does not characterize the regard in which human beings supposedly one's equal are held.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips ???

No. Those examples are completely irrelevant and inapplicable.

As a conquered peoples, the Quebecois were treated very well and 'in recent years' and I'm sure you've noticed above, the government had gone about attempting to appease the Quebecois, which has lead to them being more powerful than any other province in Canada.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "As a conquered peoples, the Quebecois"

You just lost the next referendum, right there. Nice going. This is EXACTLY what the song reminds them of, every time some Col. Blimp like you belches it into the air. It doesn't matter how many centuries pass; so long as they remain in Canada, they are "a conquered people". With attitudes like yours, the breakup of Canada is just a matter of time.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips That was an incredibly obnoxious move by the Quebecois government to arguably demonstrate how 'independent' they are. Most Canadians, including many Quebecois, felt that not inviting the head of our country to even play a small part in the celebration of the 400 anniversary of our oldest city(I believe) I actually don't entirely personally disagree with the Quebec government, as it can be argued that it was the celebration of a pre-British Canada.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "the 400 anniversary of our oldest city"

Yeah, a city that was already a century and a half old when one of her ancestors first became its "head of state". If you can't see why that's galling to them, then I despair for the future of this country.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Well, as I said before, that was when the current legal and political system was, more or less, set up. In theory you could have hundreds of verses going back to when people crossed the Bering Strait during the ice age and settled North America. It's just impractical to do so.Considering that the time in which the song was written, and the background of the composer, it is not unwise to assume that he wrote the song to bring people together through their joint history.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "In theory you could have hundreds of verses going back to when people crossed the Bering Strait during the ice age"

Yeah, in theory, you could. Or you could do what Vladimir Radian did and not mention ANY ethnicity in particular, but focus instead on the things all humans here have in common: ultimately, we came from elsewhere; this is our home; we value the peace, pride, and security of it.

What's impractical about that?

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Well, if you value history, which you seem to, then surely you can see the impracticality with removing the traces of history present in our music?

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 It's hardly "impractical". The song hasn't been a facet of Canadian public life in my lifetime. I was in high school before I ever heard it. I certainly don't think the country has suffered for that. If anything, the evaporation of such noxious bilge from the public stage is probably just enough to have saved us during the 1995 referendum.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Well, Canadian patriotism is also worse than ever. You've probably ascertained a reasonable estimate of my age by now, so let me inform you of this: Not only are jokes about Canada's 'fail' position in the world, and military strength considered to be amusing, they are also considered true. Additionally, I am openly mocked for being a patriot. We may have become much more accepting and removed noxious bilge, but we've also become much more apathetic towards our nation.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "I am openly mocked for being a patriot."

You're opening mocked for being a BRITISH patriot, rather than a Canadian one. And there is a difference, and you're also being openly mocked for being incapable of discerning that.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips I don't understand how I am a British patriot in the slightest. I do believe in Commonwealth, but that in no way makes me a British Patriot. Please stop believing in things for me.

I am mocked for having Canadian landscapes as my desktop background, and pictures of Canadian soldiers or the RCMP on parade.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "I am mocked for having Canadian landscapes as my desktop background, and pictures of Canadian soldiers or the RCMP on parade."

What's that got to do with either me, or the obnoxiousness of the original lyrics of The Maple Leaf Forever to a quarter of the nation?

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Well, it's certainly a representation of how anti-patriotic people are these days.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 Works for me.

What doesn't is pumping up the Queen, the Union Jack, and the domination of one ethnic group of Canadians over another -- particularly when those sentiments, writ large, threaten the future of this country. Fewer things could be LESS patriotic than spurring one's countrymen to disaffection, no matter how good it makes one feel. It's gratuitous and we're well rid of it.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips The queen is a symbol of Canada, as is the union jack. What is bad about them? I fail to see how the song actually 'pumps up' a group of people. Let's actually take a look at the words: Wolfe is mentioned ONCE. ONCE. Conquering is never mentioned. French people bad is neither mentioned nor implied. How is this pumping up anti-Quebec sentiment at all? Also, let's take a look at the comments on the various 'Maple leaf forever' posts on youtube. None of them are anti-quebec.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "The queen is a symbol of Canada"

The Queen is NOT a symbol of Canada. When she's in New York, or Paris, or Cape Town, do you actually believe ANYONE there says, "Oh, look, there's the Queen of CANADA!"? Of course they don't. They don't run the Union Jack up the flag pole when Team Canada wins the gold in hockey, either. They don't represent Canada. They're British, and the British have every right to them, themselves alone. They deserve to have an identity too.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips The Queen is the leader of Canada. How does she not represent Canada? The Union Jack is one flag that is occasionally used to represent Canada. The monarchy is part of our government, in what way does it not represent Canada?

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "How does she not represent Canada?"

I believe I just illustrated that. More to the point, how DOES she represent Canada?

"The Union Jack is one flag that is occasionally used to represent Canada."

Where?

"The monarchy is part of our government, in what way does it not represent Canada?"

In what way DOES it represent Canada?

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "Wolfe is mentioned ONCE."

Well unless the audience has comprehension issues, how many more times need he be mentioned to establish that what's being said is about HIM?

"Conquering is never mentioned."

Unfortunately for you, the people of Quebec are well aware that when the once-mentioned Wolfe planted firm Britannia's flag there, it was displacing their own which had already flown there for centuries. Being elliptical doesn't cause your listeners to become stupid.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips The point is, that is less than two lines in the song. Discrediting an entire song due to two lines - that is unnecessary and over-reactionary.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "The point is, that is less than two lines in the song."

No. The point is that the theme of the song is obnoxious to a huge portion of the nation, and is prejudicial to the survival of this country as it has existed and continues to exist. It wouldn't matter if it were a single word: it is what it is. The replacement of those lyrics and the ethnocentric sentiments they represent are a positive step.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips How is Canadian pride obnoxious to a huge portion f the nation? The theme of the song is not Quebec subjugation. That is the first two lines. The 'theme' of the song cannot be determined by two lines. Also, just because two lines are arguable offensive, it doesn't merit the replacement of all the lyrics.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "How is Canadian pride obnoxious to a huge portion f the nation?"

Honestly, do you have to work at being this obtuse, or does it come naturally? I've already explained this innumerable times. I've even given you an example (Dieppe) that you understood on a visceral level. You're either incapable of empathy or unwilling to admit to it; one or the other.

(cont'd)

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 (cont'd)

So one more time: That the song glories in what was the death of French regime in North America is not lost on French Canadians. The lyrics are, to them, an unpleasant reminder of a humiliating moment in their history, one that they quite naturally see differently from ethnic Britons. It's also why it vanished from public life in this country before most of us alive today were even born.

If you really love this country, take that to heart.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Stop quoting what I say out of context. The 'theme' of the song is certainly not Quebec oppression. Two lines in the song refer to that, two lines out of fifty. Those two lines do not merit a complete lyrical change in the slightest. The lyrics of the song do not represent the 'oppression' Quebec seems to feel it has been subject to, less than 5% of those lyrics make a veiled reference to it.

Furthermore, Dieppe was a completely irrelevant example, as established earlier.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "The 'theme' of the song is certainly not Quebec oppression."

Yeah, and separate schools and fountains for blacks weren't discrimination. Do you get that it doesn't matter that YOU aren't bothered by it, but that they ARE? Hence its disappearance from public life. Hence the new lyrics.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "Dieppe was a completely irrelevant example"

On the contrary; it was entirely relevant. It made the point to you as to how a Canadian feels when others celebrate their ethnicity's triumphalizing over theirs. What you would feel towards German Canadians who celebrated the triumph of German arms over your at Dieppe, French Canadians feel towards you when you wax eloquent about the Plains of Abraham. That's why these lyrics are inappropriate in modern Canadian life.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips False. Dieppe was a battle between two nations, whereas the conquest of Quebec was between two groups who now claim to be one nation. Also, I bring your attention back to something which you have never been able to respond to properly- only two lines of the song make any reference to that.That does not make the rest of the song 'inappropriate in modern Canadian life.' It does not merit a completely new set of lyrics. Stop posting useless responses, actually read what I write.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "Dieppe was a battle between two nations"

So was the French and Indian War, neither of which, today, is our own. Or are you going to start telling me now that Canada DID exist at the time, when you've been insisting all along that it didn't?

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Please address my actual point. There are only two lines in the song which can be deemed offensive, so why the complete change of lyrics?

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 Please acknowledge the validity of my Dieppe example and the fact that French Canadians can legitimately view the song differently from you.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Dieppe is invalid. Germans and Canadians are not in the same country and would not argue over singing songs about the victory at the conflict.

French Canadians can view the song however they like, as can I, and you. The point is, can we reach a conclusion on whether or not the original lyrics are offensive. Your claims of offense are all directed towards two lines of the song. Please explain why the rest of the lyrics are offensive, and why changing them is necessary.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "Dieppe is invalid."

I addressed this in the previous post. If you have problems with comprehension, please attend remedial courses until you can understand what I'm saying to you, rather than stupidly asking the same questions over and over. READ. Dispute with evidence if you feel you must, but don't just ask the same questions over and over and pretend it's a rebuttal. It isn't.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips In my first response I outlined exactly why that example was a complete failure, yet for some reason, your narcissistic, idiotic brain could not admit you were wrong, and you have instead stuck by that awful example this entire time. I actually understand what you are attempting to communicate, it's just that example is so atrocious I refuse to recognise your entire argument. There are a plethora of better examples out there, such as England singing victory songs over Scotland

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 In fact all you did was demonstrate a breathtaking and wholly puerile display of the refusal to accept the offense you felt on an example given to you could likewise apply to the offense you cause in others; a coldbloodedness an crocodile would envy, but few Canadians who love this country and want to see it endure. You're part of an ugly past and the sooner it's interred in the soil to nourish maple leafs for all, not just a storied few, the better.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips If I'm part of an ugly past, your part of a horrific future in which Canada wastes astronomic amounts of money appeasing a province which contributes little. You embody every single negative Canadian stereotype. Have fun destroying our nation. Next, you'll argue we need to have close ties with the United States.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "your part of a horrific future"

Don't like it? Move back to England. Our future suits the rest of us, who've forgotten your belligerent little ditty, just fine, thanks.

"You embody every single negative Canadian stereotype"

What, somebody who loves the country the way it is, instead of the way it was? Gee, how many hundred of you "positive" stereotypes are there left these days? :D

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "Next, you'll argue we need to have close ties with the United States."

I don't advocate close ties with United ANYTHING; Kingdom or States. I like Canada. Other countries are other counties. I don't need to sing about them when I'm supposed to be singing about mine. That's why the new lyrics to The Maple Leaf Forever are infinitely preferable to the old. They're about Canada, not a bunch of limies and wanna-be limies roaming around on it.

[Falwren]

@PatchesRips

I presume you must be a recent immigrant, still sore about leaving your own country that you have to try and dismantle mine. We were founded on the British legal system, the British parliamentary system, the English language and (save Quebec for both) British culture. If you have such a problem with these facts, then you are more then welcome to make use of our right to leave. There's a republic just a few kilometres south.

[PatchesRips]

@Falwren "I presume you must be a recent immigrant"

Yet another mistaken presumption on your part. Based merely upon YOUR attitudes, I'd tend to presume someone had dug you up out of a pre-Depression era graveyard, but in that case you probably couldn't make heads or tails of the internet, so I've discounted it. You're simply a modern holdover to attitudes of ethnic bigotry that were once de rigeur in this country.

The only immigrants in my family are my mother's parents: British.

[PatchesRips]

@Falwren "still sore about leaving your own country "

No, I'm sore about people like you trying to pretend this country isn't Canada, but some ersatz Britain. And if it's British this and British that you want to wallow in, then you're more than more than welcome to make use of your right to leave. Britain's that little island across the Atlantic. It's a bit of a walk, but if you start now, I'm sure you could be there for Guy Fawkes Day. I like that Canada finally likes being CANADA. I'll stay.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "such as England singing victory songs over Scotland"

And this strikes you as wise, does it? A sensible policy for those who love a UNITED Kingdom?

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips No, I'm just presenting a much better example than you did, to emphasize your point. Of course it isn't wise, which is why I agree that the third and fourth line need to be changed. Other than that, I see no reason to change the lyrics. French Canadians sing songs about their history, yet English Canadians are forbidden?

Please, stop groveling to your French masters. It's pathetic.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "I see no reason to change the lyrics."

Well, the rest of the country did, and they were.

"French Canadians sing songs about their history"

The crucial difference is they don't purport them to be about Canada en masse or insist they represent the nation on the international stage.

"Please, stop groveling to your French masters. It's pathetic"

Please, get your tongue out of your British Queen's ass. It's disgusting.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "Please explain why the rest of the lyrics are offensive, and why changing them is necessary."

Please explain what part of your anatomy your head was up during the 1995 Quebec referendum. That you can even ask the question is proof it wasn't anywhere that sensory input could have reached it.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips I'm sorry, there was too much bullshit and rhetoric in the above comment for my brain to actually understand. I'll attempt to simplify my diction in the following passage to make it more understandable for you.

The maple leaf forever is a song about Canada.

It talks about Canada's History and stuff

The Chorus talks about Canada's Queen.

There are two lines in the first verse which mention Quebec.

The rest of the song is about 1812, and Canada's physical attributes.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 I'm afraid "rhetoric" is all you've offered. Blithe denials of the possibility of offense that others have assured you exists. A parsimonious accounting of song lyrics, as if math were the matter here.

The Maple Leaf Forever is a song about ENGLISH Canada. And as originally composed, one that was recognized long ago by most feeling people in this country as one inappropriate to national unity and fellow-feeling, and as such it disappeared from public life.

(cont'd)

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 (cont'd)

This is the visceral reality of the song. In denying all of this, you cast yourself in the role of the southern cracker who cannot possibly admit that hoisting the Stars and Bars over a state legislature could possibly give offense to his black countrymen.

Symbols of triumphalizing pride have no place in our national life. Especially in a country this constitutionally volatile.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips It's your visceral reality. The lyrics, other than the third and fourth line, are not anti-French. That is indisputable. Read the lyrics again if you don't believe me. They're barely pro-English. Stop moaning. The double standard you set is ridiculous. French Canadians can rejoice in their French heritage, but English Canadians can't?

That's fair.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 Please read any of a number of my previous posts for your answer. Feel free to move your lips as you do so if it will aid you in comprehending what I actually wrote. Oh, and read slowly, if you must.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips I'm afraid these personal attacks are simply begging to be responded to. Your entire system of reasoning and logic is the epitome of failure. You posses less reason and are less open minded than the illustrious Tea party of our southern neighbor, and you ignore more arguments than a religious extremist. In fact, this: v=eEhDZN0RFjw is an appropriate response to everything you have said. I have nightmares about you ever making any decision for Canada.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 I'm afraid you're the one cast in the role of the Tea Bagger boy here; pumping his conservative little fist for tradition, those offended be damned. Keep squeezing those leaves, though. Ignore the fact they went dry about 1960, when the country was finally ready for O Canada to come to the fore, the Union Jack to come off our flag, and the Royal Mail to become Canada Post. When we began to see Canada as our country, not our colony.

Most of us, anyway.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Ha. That's funny. Well, enjoy spreading your pro-Quebec anti-everybody else views. You probably also support the Green Party. Well, you've done nothing but convince me that Quebec should jut leave and stop sucking our money. If they don't want to be part of our Federal Government then they should just leave. You should join them and stop weakening our nation.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "Well, you've done nothing but convince me that Quebec should jut leave and stop sucking our money."

Well, blithe idiots like you set them on that road about fifty years ago, so keep investing in your xenophobia and you'll get your wish sooner or later.

"You should join them and stop weakening our nation."

Oh, what "weakens" our nation? Anybody who's doesn't break out in crygasms at the sight of a foreign flag like you do?

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "I have nightmares about you ever making any decision for Canada."

And I have sweet dreams that people like you DON'T make decisions in this country anymore. THIS Canada IS my Canada, not faded imperial rags held over from the 19th century... so I sleep just fine.

Try some Sominex.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Right. In my Canada, Canada is a nation. In yours, it exists to serve Quebec. Have fun with that.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "In my Canada, Canada is a nation."

No it isn't. Your Canada is palpably a colonial possession, that takes pride in the accomplishments of another country, sings paeans to another country's flag, and creams all over another country's head of state. Well, you Col. Blimps have fun with that old imperial sunset. The rest of us are going to get on with Canada, the country. And yeah, tough knobs, that DOES include Quebec, and its sensibilities, too.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "something which you have never been able to respond to properly"

I have responded to it. You just don't care for my answer. And that is, A) it's incorrect that it's limited to those two lines; it goes on describe Canada as the union of three British ethnicities; and B) the fact that the only lyrics typically publicly sung are about the conquest of New France makes the song anathema to at least a quarter of the nation.

Can you acknowledge that, and save me repeating myself?

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Well, please, explain to me how it is not limited to two lines?

What other lines in the song represent 'Quebec Subjugation'?

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Please paste the other lines in the song that are anti-Quebec, as the one you used was revised in the original lyrics to include 'lily'

There's still no need to change the rest of the lyrics, especially the chorus.

[Falwren]

@SplinterCelll38

Don't bother arguing with this troll any further, he just has a vendetta against anything British. He's probably been taught so in school, being Irish, so this isn't entirely his fault. Surely when he came to Canada, he was so outraged by the widespread use of British symbols and traditions and widespread liking for them, that he needed to reinflate his ego by going on here and trolling any British Canadian heritage videos.

[SplinterCelll38]

@Falwren So True...



[Falwren]

@PatchesRips

I was only mentioning that event in response to the person above who commented about shelling Quebec city, as to say that both sides need to get over it.

I'm not sure where you've been, but I've heard them in public several times in the last 10 years, let alone 50. The only embarassment is you, since you seem so intent on destroying our heritage and legacy.

[PatchesRips]

@Falwren "I've heard them in public several times in the last 10 years"

Really? Where?

"The only embarassment is you, since you seem so intent on destroying our heritage and legacy."

The real embarrassment to any community are those luddites who cannot acknowledge that a society, like a person, changes over time in tastes and attitudes, but insist its character is carved immutable for all time. Feel free to move back to 1940 if you can find your way. I live in 2011, and prefer it here.

[SplinterCelll38]

@kanatasur2 Well, Muir himself recommended adding 'Lily' to the 'Thistle, Shamrock,Rose entwine' Additionally, the French Canadians were not really subjugated at all. For the time, they were treated remarkably well. They were given the option to leave of become British Citizens and stay. This shouldn't divide anyone, as the song also concentrates on Canadian success in the war of 1812, which is regarded by many to be a fine Canadian Achievement and produced many national heroes, like Isaac Brock

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "Additionally, the French Canadians were not really subjugated at all. For the time, they were treated remarkably well."

So you'd be fine with the Yanks showing up tomorrow, exiling the PM, disestablishing the monarchy, and giving the rest of us the "choice" of either becoming loyal Yankees or going back to wherever our ancestors came from in the last 200 years -- so long as they didn't actually enslave us or something? Ah, I like your definition of "remarkably well".

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips If we were to become involved in a war with the United States, and we were to surrender unconditionally, then yes, I would consider them to be most generous if they gave us the opportunity to leave, or stay and settle what is now legally their land as citizens of their country. That is very generous in situations of unconditional surrender. I feel it is important to note, to prevent the ad hominem attacks that will follow, I would never support any kind of union or surrender totheUS

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "then yes, I would consider them to be most generous"

Then I have no respect for you and your claims to patriotism are not worth the breath you take to speak them or the clattering of your keys. If you could forget Canada and sway happily to songs that daily remind you of the destruction of what you once (claimed you) loved, you're truly contemptible -- even if it's only to avoid conceding the point.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Ah- the foretold ad hominem attack has arrived. Well, if my country were to unconditionally surrender, I would have no choice in the matter. I would never support a Canadian surrender to any foe, but if it were to happen, I would have no choice in the matter. As unfathomable as it is, in the situation, I would likely join a resistance movement, kill myself, or leave for another one of her majesty's domains. That is not really what this song is about though, as it was created cont'd

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "I would have no choice in the matter"

You would so. You're just admitting you wouldn't have the guts to make it. You'd let someone else fight and die for what you claim to love, but when push came to shove, you'd forget it all. So, being that sort of person, naturally you expect French Canadians to think lyrics about the disruption of their cultural and political evolution to be just fine. That's why I have to explain to you that it is not.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips ???

I don't understand. If the government of Canada unconditionally surrendered to the United States following a war, I would not be able to influence this decision, unless I was a member of the government. Furthermore, your attacks against my belief in Queen and Country are offensive and childish. I ask that you please stop, as they do not serve to further our discussion. Finally, French Canadians were give the option to not become British subjects. They should have decided not to.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 Yes, we know; all it would take for you to become a jolly Yankee singing songs about General Schwarzkopf planting Old Glory o'er Canada's fair domain would be a triumph of arms; that's established. No need to keep embarrassing yourself reiterating it.

"French Canadians were give the option to not become British subjects"

Yeah, and when the Yanks give YOU the "option" to leave, without your home or business, and to go back to a land your family hasn't seen in generations...?

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips You need to stop with the attacks against me. The do not serve to advance your point, the merely make me lose respect for you as a thinking individual.

And yes, as a loyal subject of HMQEII I would leave my home and business to go to one of her other domains.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "And yes, as a loyal subject of HMQEII I would leave my home and business to go to one of her other domains. "

Okay, I dare yah.

Tomorrow morning, walk away from your house. Walk away from your job. Take whatever money you have in your pockets and fly away to England, say.

Show me just how easy it would have been for the Quebecois. Go show me. I'll be waiting.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips what is this i dont even

We were clearly discussing a hypothetical situation in which Canada has been conquered, and though I fought the government's decision, they unconditionally surrendered. In that situation I would leave. Not just because I felt like it.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 Well, barring the actual conquest of Canada, which I'm afraid I can't arrange for the sake of your showing me just what a breeze it would be to abandon everything you own and care about just to stand on ceremony, as you seem to suggest it was in 1763, this is what we're left with. So just pretend invaders have given you this wonderful option, okay? And show me how easy it is for you to choose it.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips Really easy. I'm afraid you don't understand quite how fanatic I am

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 Then leave tomorrow. Post the video here on YouTube.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips ?????????

Haven't we already established that the government needs to topple first?

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "Haven't we already established that the government needs to topple first?"

I think what we've established is you're a BS artist who couldn't do what he so blithely suggests was a soft option 260 years ago. That's what. Not that I actually expected you to do it. But I did want to credit you with the guts to say "Okay, I see your point; it's not a real option for people to walk away in poverty to a land they've never known." But I gave you too much credit, I see.

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips as it was written several hundred years after the fact, and was for the audience of those who stayed and did not start resistance. The citizens of New France kind of got screwed by a war they likely didn't choose to be part of, but such is the tragedy of war. The British legally won that land from the French, and their decision to allow French citizens to remain and continue to exist without having to convert to their religion etc. was most generous, especially considering the times

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 I don't dispute any of that. What I've been telling you from the start is that the event was a huge tragedy to them as a people, they have not forgotten it, it matters still, it is one of the things that separates them from the rest of Canada culturally and always will, and that the original words of The Maple Leaf Forever are obnoxious to them for that reason and damaging to our future as a nation, and we're well rid of them.

[PatchesRips]

@SplinterCelll38 "I would never support any kind of union or surrender totheUS"

Until it were accomplished, then you'd be snug as a bug simpering "I, for one, welcome our American overlords" -- you just said so. Is the word "quisling" out of fashion?

[SplinterCelll38]

@PatchesRips This is just offensive.

[PatchesRips]

@Cliodule "no one has ever come up with a satisfactory replacement for Muir's lyrics."

I, for one, disagree. I think Vladimir Radian's 1997 revision is stellar. The lyric "within my heart, above my home: the Maple Leaf, forever" can bring tears to my eyes.

[cjsinclair]

The sentiment is touching, I love Canada!

[Kamibambiraptor]

Thank you! I consider myself extremely fortunate to live in such a country as ours. :-)

[lamnaa]

Flags and national anthems may change, but friendships never will.

God Save the Queen!

[CelticCanuck4]

The empire is family....so its good to have you in the family.

[canuckleful]

my God, that's beutiful...

*sniffle*

[shadowbaby]

God Save the Queen

[91amp]

the thisle shamrock rose intwined THE MAPLE LEAF FOREVER

God Save the Queen

a wonderful vid with thanks from the UK!

[Kamibambiraptor]

You're welcome! God Save Her Majesty! :)

[324wilson]

Gob bless my Canada...

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!!!

[bigarmy12334343]

THE MAPL LIFE FORVERE

[icecreamgoon]

Nice video, and the video making software "fraps", so I've heard, is better.

[Kamibambiraptor]

I'm glad you liked the video & I will check out 'Fraps' & see what I think; thank you for the tip. :) The main advantage of Movie Maker is that I have it, & it's free, but I might be up for spending a little money to save myself some (more) grey hairs!