TEDxTransmedia 2011 - Jem Bendell - The Money Myth

[shaunak84]

This guy is clueless. That the public debt cannot be payed back is a huge fallacy and I see it parroted everywhere.

[kaxitaksi]

Resource Based Economy FTW!

[Baprener]

we need a Resource Based Economy

[IHighLikePlane]

If we can create an abundance of human needs (food, water, electricity, transportation, health care, education, shelter, etc.) and give every person a high standard of living then wouldn't money just be counter-productive?

We do have the technological capability to meet every human's needs in an environmentally sustainable fashion, but money is holding us back. Very soon technology will make most human labor obsolete, so a labor for income society won't work.

We need a Resource Based Economy

[cactuskiwi]

We need a Resource Based Economy

[kparcell]

@jembendell. Profit at central banks recirculates, unlike imaginary debt to knight in your illustration. Fractional reserve is just smoke and mirrors with fiat currency. Islamic banking today substitutes high fees for interest because profit is still essential. Sorry, missing last point about velocity/lending?

[MFvGeel]

The solution is actually pretty simple: Instead of letting the banks create money out of nothing, let the governments create a fixed percentage of their GDP as new money. If the ability for banks to create money through fractional reserve banking is curtailed at the same time, the growth of the money supply doesn't increase more then it would have otherwise, so there is no extra inflation.

[kparcell]

@jembendell I appreciate reply and your work at Com Forge. I know film, liteaer, greco, eisenstein, etc, all good intent, but market runs on SELF interest, NOT goodwill. Without interest charge there is no profit motive. In reality, if money lent or invested or saved it is still in circulation, so interest can still be paid. And as long as circulation keeps up with market growth then all is well. Please visit reconomy dot net to see my view of problem and solution.

[jembendell]

@kparcell The talk identifies charging of interest at the point of money creation as a key problem, not all interest i.e. fractional reserve banking is identified as the problem, not a private bank lending deposits/capital at interest. The wider role of interest is something to discuss. Note that there is a profit motive from lending without interest, as Islamic banking has demonstrated. I havent found monetary economists proving velocity of money means lending does not need to expand

[kparcell]

The popular idea that "interest" is unworkable as illustrated in this anecdote is incorrect. The reality is that as banks are repaid they, in turn, generally spend money buying from the businesses that they have financed, paying a price for what they buy that covers the business's expenses plus a profit. And so the businesses do have the money to pay debt + interest. There's a problem with how currency is created but the argument against interest doesn't hold up.

[jembendell]

@kparcell that argument assumes all earnings from interest are spent and not saved or invested, which isnt the case. Its an argument that the film "Money as Debt II" helps explain is not the case. the only other argument against the problem money issued as debt with interest is that if the velocity of money circulating increases this means all debts can be serviced with existing money supply. but again, this doesnt happen, as the velocity increase needed is not normal.

[SusyQLove]

@kparcell I'm sorry, you are wrong. The process you have described is correct sometimes. But when the cycle comes to the bust cenit, then capital holders withdraw their money from investments and stop reinvestments. That's when it becomes evident what this talk explains, which is completely true.

[jmkao]

This idea need not be the crazy idealistic revolution that it first sounds like. Prof. Richard Werner of the University of Southampton describes a similar concept in a youtube video titled "Richard Werner: Debt Free & Interest Free Money." In other papers (google for them), including a citation in the May 19, 2005 issue of the Economist titled "Indian defence", he proposes that central banks could purchase assets directly, almost as a kind of "proof of concept" of this idea.

[MrCally1]

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I am sorry, but this guy is clearly underestimating the destructive power of currency or money; ANY currency or money.

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We are living in "a system value dissorder" in which the money sequences are completely detached from life sequences with devastating consequences. This is the consequence of introducing a monetary system.

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The only monetary reformation that is adequate is the total abolishment of the monetary system.

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Money is obsolete.

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-0-

[HerrSchmutz]

watch man on telli rip apart 20 Euros... *feel a slight tinge of loss... :I

[mjlthijssen]

thanks Jem Bendell!

[kingofthepaupers]

2:30 some lose your homes

Jct: Precisely I/(P+I) lose homes when all borrowed P=10 and all owe P+I=11. P/(P+I) survive their mort-gage death-gamble; I/(P+I) knocked into foreclosure.

6:00 more debt in world than money

Jct: Yes, more Principal+Interest owed than Principal Money loaned out.

11:06 LETS in the UK

Jct: Making me proud of financing the 1st LETS freeware in 1984.

11:10 Bitcoin...

Jct: Is based on nothing.

11:35 What kind of currencies good for us?

Jct: UNILETS Time based currency.

[ziqueez]

Lol, again with this crap. Give me 5 minutes in TED and I'll crush this joker.

[jdaviescoates]

@ziqueez why not spend 5 minutes here crushing him, if you can?

[ziqueez]

@jdaviescoates because nobody gives a shit about youtube comments

[whahas]

@ziqueez So why did you even bother writing one to start with then? You are contradicting yourself, aren't you? If you can not state one thing that's wrong with this TEDx Talk or the subject, you are a troll.

[ziqueez]

@whahas How on earth am i contradicting myself? I said I could crush that guy given 5 minutes on TED. I'm not going to waste my time refuting him on youtube, since no one gives a shit about youtube comments. Then again, I would definitely spend time composing a TED talk on why he'd wrong given the chance, since people actually watch and think about those.

[diddypan]

@ziqueez Woooaaa, Someone with great solutions in theese financial bank-the-fucked-rupt times? Well come on and give him the best shot while you at it? Upload a video yourself, because its like what you say it is, noone give a fuck about youtube comments. Show him that your the man, grab theese bankers by the nuts, and save us from theese hard times?

[ziqueez]

@diddypan I don't have any solutions, I'm not arrogant enough to say that, but I damn well can spot bs when I see some, and it's bad that this bs has made its way to tedx talks. I just have a gut feeling a youtube video isn't gonna make much of a difference, not enough people wanna hear the truth.

[mikeriddell62]

None of this is new I'm afraid. Bernard Lietaer and Thomas Greco have been in this space for some time. I'm sorry to sound critical, but explaining the need doesn't make it happen. Systems do that.

You should check out what's happening in Wigan. With the local authority and NESTA a local currency is being tested - one that's earned into existence by individuals that volunteer or contribute to the community in some other way. E-wallets transfer account balances.

@mikeriddell62

[mikeriddell62]

None of this is new I'm afraid. Bernard Lietaer and Thomas Greco have been in this space for some time. I'm sorry to sound critical, but explaining the need doesn't make it happen. Systems do that.

You should check out what's happening in Wigan. With the local authority and NESTA a local currency is being tested - one that's earned into existence by individuals that volunteer or contribute to the community in some other way. E-wallets transfer account balances.

@mikeriddell62

[jembendell]

@mikeriddell62 We need to learn from various systems - compare, copy and scale them. So its good to hear about Nesta, thx. Community Forge is supporting about 200 currencies with open source software. Explaining the need and new systems is part of a process of getting more useful systems! The talk content isnt at all new, but the lack of discussion in the mass media is a problem and I presented to the main broadcasters in Europe to encourage more coverage.

[mikeriddell62]

None of this is new I'm afraid. Bernard Lietaer and Thomas Greco have been in this space for some time. I'm sorry to sound critical, but explaining the need doesn't make it happen. Systems do that.

You should check out what's happening in Wigan. With the local authority and NESTA a local currency is being tested - one that's earned into existence by individuals that volunteer or contribute to the community in some other way. E-wallets transfer account balances.

@mikeriddell62

[robincasey1]

2/4

a) What if you would not loan money? You earn it with your job, you put this money in your digital wallet (= the bank), and use it when you need to.

b) But what if you did loan the money? If you pay it back (with interest) via the money you earn, over time you will fill the void of the fictive generated money, with money you created. > You are just postponing new investments into the market while paying it back (an investment you did earlier).

[jembendell]

@robincasey1 The money you earn in your job is someones debt because about 97% of all money is issued as debt. This is about the initial origin of money, not who gets it at one point in time. For anyone not understanding these things, rather than wasting your time starting from false premise, its easier to watch some explanatory videos. For a list of resources on this paste bit..ly/ssHXt2 into your web browser and delete one of the "." (as i cant put in a url in this comment box).

[robincasey1]

3/4

I do not see, where there is a flaw in the system when you a) don't loan money, or when you b) pay back your loan. > Take into account that the money that is being loaned, is only of temporary fictive value (as you will pay your dept). - Okay, but if you do not earn money, because you do not have a job (anymore), than there is an issue...

[robincasey1]

4/4

So my interpretation:

Back 3.000 years: If I have just given away most of my sheep due to a baby boom, I will not have any sheep to trade in the upcoming years.

FFW now: If I have just invested my money in a loan for a car, for the upcoming years I will not have much money to spend in the upcoming years.

> Its just a temporary peak in the realistic money flow.

[jembendell]

If this vid gets you interested, or you find it difficult to believe, then check out this list of easy resources on the monetary crisis that lies beneath our financial, ecological & humanitarian crisis. Paste bit..ly/ssHXt2 into your web browser and delete one of the "."

[Tasqa1993]

@jembendell Awesome talk! Would you mind if use it as a base for a talk, for family friends and perhaps a discussion at my studieclub at the university?

After see-ing Inside Job and reading about bitcoin the past few days, this is an excellent base to combine those two.

[jembendell]

@Tasqa1993 Thx Tasqa. The Inside Job is a great film, but stops short of unpicking the unsustainable nature of monetary systems (in USA, Iceland and beyond). The subprime lending, complex derivatives, regulatory capture & academic conflict of interest well described in the film are just the latest SYMPTOMS of an underlying crisis in the nature of money i.e. credit creation with interest by banks. Happy u can use the talk to connect mainstream critiques of banking to deeper causes of crisis

[Tasqa1993]

@jembendell I copied the references of your talk from the other comment and will take a look at them after my exams. Do you recommend watching or reading anything else?

[jembendell]

@Tasqa1993 I cant put links in youtube, but in addition to the books I mentioned below (I find Greco's is the best), I recommend the following films, which can be found online, or ordered as dvd: Money as Debt, Money as Debt II, Money as Debt III, Money Masters, The Money Fix, Lets Make Money, 97% Owned. All are better on this topic than the Zeitgeist films. If you have an academic interest, check out the "International Journal of Community and Complementary Currency Research".

[Rhea303]

The money-system will be gone and forgotten in the near future -- I can feel it in my wallet already ..

[athu25897]

Money is a dillusion, why don't people understand ? We don't eat money, we don't drink money, we don't breathe money. It is totally unnecesssary and while using it has brought us wars, crimes, destruction all over the world, I think we should just stop using it and look for a better way of living, and that's why the zeitgeist movement and the venus project are here

[LilaBear]

@athu25897 soooo... war, crime and destruction was non-existent before money? Really?

[gutzbramah]

@LilaBear Basically, yes.

[9KoubA2]

If people followed the logical Islamic concepts of forbidding interest banking/loaning and of paying zakat (obligatory percentage of any unused saving held for at least a year to the poor) we wouldn't have these problems.

You really don't have to be a Muslim to understand or accept that.

[BladeMcCool]

Great talk. Combining the Bitcoin public ledger (aka block chain) idea with the Ripple idea of extending credit in whatever units to whoever you want, could be something big. A p2p mutual credit system that relies on no central servers could pave the way forward. Ripplecoin? heh.

[hazemnes]

impressive!

[rchmnnff]

@jembendell This debt money is also "Legal Tender", so it's "money" that's privately created AND legally imposed by the government. Some people make the argument that since you can pay taxes with this (debt-ridden fiat) money, then your little paper bills DO have value/backing (govt will accept them for taxes). So, you see, it's not just that it's "valueless paper" ("value" is subjective, anyway), it's that both Banks and State conspire against the 99% of people in an utterly immoral scam cycle.

[whahas]

@rchmnnff I can not discredit your statements, but you should realize that he didn't focus on alternate currencies for nothing, if you get my drift.

We are all in this together, so if the bottom line is the same, don't attack anybody on the details.

[rchmnnff]

@jembendell BTW, it seems to me that you might have found your way into the good ol' arguments/theory of the (sadly infamous due to its constant criticism of government intervention and mainstream economics, and its [perfectly justified IMO] refusal to use meaningless aggregations such as GDP numbers, etc.) Austrian School of economics. Read Carl Menger on the Origins of Money; Ludwig Von Mises & Murray Rothbard on Value, Forms of money, Fractional Banking, Economic cycles, Debt creation, etc.

[jembendell]

@rchmnnff thx for the tips. the talk format didnt lend itself to citing sources. the researchers who have influenced me include:

The End of Money and the Future of Civilisation, Thomas Greco Jr

The Future of Money, by Bernard Lietaer

The Ecology of Money, by Richard Douthwaite

The Lost Science of Money, by Stephen Zarlinga

...and my colleague Matthew Slater who edits Community Currency Magazine: ccmag.net

[rchmnnff]

On the idea that a knight came and told us to use some tokens: I know it was just a thought experiment, but IMO it should be clarified at some point that the idea of money didn't (originally) come to being like that. It was rather people realizing that a barter economy's problem of Double Coincidence of Wants could be solved by using a Medium of Exchange (historically, everything from Butter to Salt to Gold). THAT is money. NOT some debt token (that one came later, from the State + Bank combo)

[elefteross]

What's the point of this presentation? He explained money problem in the "Zeitgeist" way... cut 20 Euros. It has value - for somebody, like people in Africa where they are living with dolar per day, you can provide... to who am I writing this, anyway?

[jembendell]

@elefteross The 20 euro pieces will be used in a piece of art that will be auctioned for charity. The talk is not calling for people to destroy money (unlike Zeitgeist). The ripping of a euro was to help people feel how attached to the idea that money is value, rather than money representing value. The poor need real solutions to exploitation, not charity on the whim of the rich. Money issued as debt with interest is anti-poor, indeed, its anti-everybody, which is the message of the talk.

[dekoomers]

he lost 20 pounds in just 12 minutes!

[eatcarpet]

Money and capitalism is ruining everything.

[8888rogue]

What new money? Debt-free money.