Did the millions of Russians that starved to death under Lenin and Stalin have 'the right' to not starve to death? Probably; but because they believed in that right, they starved to death.
You have a right to freedom and Voluntarism, not a right to commit criminal coercion.
Coercive Sector Medical Care is criminal and all of the individuals upholding it should be charged as such. Everything should be voluntary, the opposite of criminal socialism.
In the pure,natural world of biological determinism there are no 'rights' strictly speaking,esp., human rights.
The question of whether or not Health Care should be a basic right is a philosophical question regarding Americans interpretation of our Declaration Of Independence's 'right to life' stipulation as well as a basic question of the rational & moral standards a civilization seeks to set for itself.
At the moment the US is on the lunatic fringe of health rights.
@thirdshift47 The freedom to commit criminal coercion is not a 'philosophical question', it does not exist. Everything--all goods, services and actions--should be voluntary, anyone that commits coercion should be charged as such.
And what is 'criminal',much less criminal coersion?
Freedom & crime are both social constructs that appear nowhere in nature.In heirarchical civil society the ruling class generally defines crime,which is one of the reasons that libertarianism & ideologies of conscience were born.
The idea that a few people could control all basic resources & services & that the rest of the globe should just respect the 'voluntary' decision to allow everyone else to go without is scary.
@thirdshift47 Everything--all good, services and actions--should be voluntary. Everyone that violates the Non-Coercion Principle should be charged as such. There is no such thing as the freedom to commit criminal coercion, that is a criminal action and should be charged as such.
@qwertypoiu4321 not all. upkeep of socaity is a duty and that, includes healthcare. allso, crime is not the same everywhere. complete freedome is anarchy. in order to be part of socaity you have to give out some freedomes. only reason to why things are crimes is that we make them ones. so in order to make something a crime there shuld be good reasons to it. some are abvios like murder and stealing. we all give some number of freedomes in order to have savety.
@qwertypoiu4321 crime is something that demands consensus. for instace capital punishment is crime in my eyes and such shuld be illigal. in optimal freedoem there is no crime bechose there is no socaity or police. we sacriface freedomes for stability. thus we create rules and laws witch are made to stop anti-social actions or encourage good actions. this is reason why tribes, clans, towns,citys and nations are born. unity of community demands that we give same value to life of other as our own.
Forcing somebody to buy health insurance is unconstitutional in America.
If healthcare is a right then you have a right to force somebody to pay for your health insurance or you have a right to force a doctor to give you treatment. How is that consistent with a free society?
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. un charter of the un signed by the usa
That is utter nonsense! Not everyone should have "coverage'" not everyone should have healthcare! not everyone should have "affordable food" especially when provided at the barrel of the gun by "govt"!
If u can't afford it, if u can't pay for it, if u dont work CAREFULLY & protect ur own damn property & liberty, u dont get to buy no healthcare nor any food, clothes, homes, cars, computers, etc
Wow. Like minds like action. If health care is a human right then Mr. Kerrey should be compelled to work in a nursing home changing soiled beds. Doubt he would lower himself. How much would you have to pay someone like him to do the real work in healthcare.
@jpollard117 Good point! The only Rights we have are unalienable Rights. When these Rights are viewed through the prism of science (see my channel video), one will find they apply to all Life, from bacteria to humans, and Social systems, including Charles Darwin’s research; as in some Grand Unification principle for all Living-systems. Most understand the Laws of Nature trumps mortals in power; a new understanding of these Rights may help make this world a better place to live.
It depends on who you ask but Health Care is not a Human Right under the US Constitution. But a Legal Right that all americans have access to Hospitals.
In a civilized society, healthcare is a right. Even in the most primitive of societies, heathcare is dispensed to an entire village. It's only human and only right. It is only when we have lost our compassion that people even consider healthcare not to be a right of all citizens. At that point, I don't want to live in a country where such abject bias is felt.
@friedie1jeff it sounds like your providing evidence that only primitive societies think that health care is a right. LOL yes I'm being an ass, no I don't think healthcare is a right.
@friedie1jeff Nonsense! "Right" is something that you already have and can be taken away from you. Health care is something that has to be "given" to you and paid for by somebody else.
@ssmusic214 Both "rights" and "privileges" can be taken away. The former by dictators like Stalin and Hitler, or by evil governments, and the latter by a licensing authority, such as a driver's licensing authority if you are putting other people at risk. Maybe you should live in a country that lets its people die from disease that could be cured, and you would be much happier. To your arguement, the entire society pays for health care in a civilized society that has ethics and morals.
@ssmusic214 Then I guess that we don't have a right to use the roads, bridges, or even to drink the water because someone else is paying for it. And certainly we don't have the right to a pension because, in fact, someone else is paying for that, also. More to the point, medical research in all areas is heavily subsidized by government grants, and also by corporate and private donations. So are scholarships to medical school. As such, "someone else" is paying for your medical care.
@ssmusic214 Tell me about interstate highways and other highways that are not toll roads. EVERYONE has the RIGHT to use them. And, just like taxes support medical research, hospital grants, physician grants and medical education grants, taxes also support those roads that are non-toll roads. We all pay for all this. Including, in a civilized society, medical care for all. We are not barbarians in this country. In fact, even barbarians care for their community.
@friedie1jeff Yes they are free, and not given to you by anybody. You have to defend them only if somebody ties to take them away. Health care has to be given to you by somebody or paid for out of your pocket.
@friedie1jeff I don't even believe in free will and yes it has everything to do with self ownership if this health care is a "right." Proclaiming such a service is a right you force people to pay for it with the money they got from their own sweat and toil.
We have a right to pursue Healthcare, we do not have a right to health care. I cannot force anyone by means of government to perform a service or product for me. That is immoral.
Of course healthcare is a right. Just like the right to bare arms. That's very different from a government mandate to keep and bare arms or the gov't producing, buying, or conscripting spears and tanks and then distributing them. And yes I chose "spears and tanks" over the more obvious description of armament (the general and ambiguous "gun") to highlight that externalizing the process of defining what "healthcare" "is" to the government from the individual could itself be a rights violation.
also, the argument that the gubment is going to decide who get treatment is B.S. since the insurance companies already do that (and if you don't believe me, try going to an 'out of network provider' and see if they pay out). further, 'socialized medicine' seems to be ok for the old folks. since they go to the doctor more often and need prescription drugs more than young people, the insurance industry deems them unprofitable and uncle sam has to take care of them.
@toshindodisciple, "the insurance companies already do that" thats the point. By having a bunch of choices for which service you want, you can pick the cheapest one that fits you, and the free market creates the most efficient way to provide health care without over spending. The government doesn't do that.
"'socialized medicine' seems to be ok for the old folks." Keyword: seems. In reality it would bankrupt us if we had to pay for all of it. There's a reason insurance doesn't like it.
first, if the cheapest plant that fits you is still more than you can afford, you're s.o.l.
please explaing to me how my paying a 3rd party (insurance co.) who in turn pays as little to my provider as possible (to meet their profit margin) makes for more efficient and better healthcare.
second: we do pay for all of seniors healthcare, it's called medicare and medicaid, check your pay stub. why should insurance co's be given a free pass on the most expensive individuals.
i don't believe healthcare is a right but as a compassionate individual i think it can (and should) be provided to everyone by eliminating the middle-man.
the free market works great for sneakers and t.v.'s but not for essential services.
@toshindodisciple, "first, if the cheapest plant that fits you is still more than you can afford, you're s.o.l." Ya, so why do you believe that paying higher rates with your taxes would be a good idea? Insurance is optional, taxes are not. And the ironic thing is it doesn't make the rich poorer and the poor richer, it makes doctors filthy rich by taking money from everyone else. Unless they cap wages, which is worse since there will be less doctors of less quality. It's bad all the way around.
@Houshalter why do you presume you'd have to pay more. why couldn't you pay the same dollar amount to medicare (and cover everyone) as you do to the insurance companies. i'd even argue that you'd pay less. my father (a private business man and not a rich one by any means) had to drop his coverage because they wanted $600/month (because he's in his late 50's) and he's in good health, he rarely ever used his insurance.
@Houshalter also, if you're on the lower end of the income spectrum (which most people are) or are unemployed you'd pay very little to no taxes, consequently you'd not have health insurance either.
i don't care about making the rich poor or the poor rich, i'm just a bit apalled that we pay for the healthcare of incarcerated murderers and rapists while law abiding citizens (mostly lower and middle class) are allowed to die from treatable illnesses (in arguably the greatest country on earth).
@toshindodisciple, "please explaing to me how my paying a 3rd party (insurance co.) who in turn pays as little to my provider as possible (to meet their profit margin) makes for more efficient and better healthcare." if they can't compete against other companies they loose all their profit. If someone could do it as efficiently as you suggest the gov can, it would already be done. I'd rather own an insurance company and make meager profits then not compete and make none.
@Houshalter the insurance compaines aren't interested in meager profits, they want huge ones. that's why they let people, whom they supposedly cover, die.
would you want the best, ceapest healthcare available or the best withour regard to financial gain or loss?
@toshindodisciple, "the insurance compaines aren't interested in meager profits, they want huge ones." everyones goal is to maximize profits. I don't know why you feel you have to tell me this. My point is the same reason every other industry finds the most efficient price system also applies to insurance companies.
@toshindodisciple, "that's why they let people, whom they supposedly cover, die." I may be wrong, but I thought in our country the hospitals have to treat life threatening diseases anyways, and that is already payed for by the government. If not, I can live with a system like that.
"would you want the best, ceapest healthcare available or the best withour regard to financial gain or loss?" That's the thing, with the governments "one size fits all" policy, you don't have a choice...
Look, if the government can set up an organization run so much more efficiently then anything the private industry can muster, be my guest and set it up. But don't make it mandatory, and don't charge taxes or you are defeating the whole purpose.
"it's scientific advancement and government subsities " Scientific advances are produced by the free market, and gov subsidies make food more costly and less efficient, they only benefit farmers.
@toshindodisciple, "medicare and medicaid" were horrible ideas for the same reasons I've already gone over.
"eliminating the middle-man." The government will also have to set up offices and pay people to do the same jobs, likely for more.
"the free market works great for sneakers and t.v.'s but not for essential services." What about food? The free market made it the most efficient it's been in human history. The same applies to medicine, or would, if we got rid of the FDA.
@toshindodisciple, "medicare and medicaid are not horrible ideas as as the elderly all across this country depend upon them for healthcare." Dependence is NOT a good thing, but if you are to argue that it is, then why can't they "depend" on the same services from private options? Many do, hell, most good doctors won't even accept patients with medicare.
@Houshalter just for clarification, it wasn't the free market that makes food cheap. it's scientific advancement and government subsities (using our tax dollars). granted, some of these scientific advancements were probably devised to increase profits. the gouvernment subsidises the farm industry because it's good for the economy. if you paid $500 a week in groceries you probably wouldn't have money to buy anything else especially non essentials like tv's and videogames.
@toshindodisciple, infact, I really can't think of any government projects in recent history that benefited the food industry. Back before the 1930's crop breeding was done by universities and paid for by the government as a public project, but then private companies started doing it better and out-competing. All the farm equipment and products today are done by the free market.
"if you paid $500 a week in groceries" The government pays farmers not to work to raise the price of food.
@Houshalter it's the huge agribusinesses, such as ConAgra, that get the huge subsidies not small individual farmers, unfortunately. small farmers can't compete so the get gobbled up by mega corporations. most of the subsidies go to the corn and meat industry. you may (or may not) be surprised at how much corn is in your diet in the form of highfructose cornsyrup, it's in virtually everything. the corn lobbies bribe our congressmen and in turn get big subsidies.
@toshindodisciple, yes, so can we agree that subsidies are generally a bad thing?
Oh for crying out loud, don't go into "outsourcing is a bad thing." It means that our economy has finally improved enough no one wants to do those jobs (like working in a sweat shop) or else we can't do them as efficiently. When a dollar goes overseas, what is it worth over there? Nothing. China prints yuans, not dollars. The only way they can get value out of it is by spending it on American products.
i guess my point is that if americans are working, producing goods, they earn money to buy products (ideally made here), thus stimulating our own economy. that's why, if given a choice, i'll pay a few buck more to buy something made in the good ol' u s of a vs china or taiwan.
also, there's an exchange rate for currency. that's how we can borrow money from china, to pay for things here and now and let our kids and grands kis pay for it in the future.
@toshindodisciple, yes, but when you buy something overseas, they get the money, and because it's worthless to them otherwise, they have to trade it for American goods and services, which do make jobs and stimulate our economy, or else they trade it to someone who does want something over here.
And our grandkids won't pay for anything. All market transactions happen immediatly, with immediate effects.
if american currency was worthless outside of the us, why does china export so many goods to be purchased here using american dollars? the dollar most definitely has worth ouside the us, it's the most recognized and accepted form currency on the planet because of it's worth. it can be exchanged for local currency anywhere.
you'd better believe that future generations are going to pay the debt we incur, national debt=money we owe ther countries, mostly china.
@toshindodisciple, it has worth outside the US because it has real value. If the US abandonned the dollar, it would most certainly be worthless.
And what are they going to do, invade us? And as long as the investors have knowledge of stuff like this, they factor it into their decisions. If you know that massive inflation will happen in X years, it affects the marketplace NOW, as players adapt startegies to this information.
of course if we dropped the dollar it'd be worthless. money is only paper, it only has the value we place on it. that's why it can be worth more or less than a week or a year ago.
no they wouldn't invade but they'd stop loaning to us. but then how would we cover our annual deficit? if we pay back, our credit is good and they keep loaning. high deficit and no credit=slipping into 2nd or 3rd world status. we can look abroad and see what that's like.
@Houshalter also, the free market is in some ways bad for american business and farmers. manufacturers can't compete with the low overhead of sweatshot labor, that's why all our manufacturing jobs are going overseas. small time american farmers can't compete with the low cost of foreign produce. much of our produce comes from mexico and south america. my uncle owns a pear and apple orchard in oregon, he's always complaining about how he can't compete with them and is going broke.
@toshindodisciple, so anyways, sorry about your uncle, but I would rather have greater purchasing power with my money (through cheaper products) and have more money allocated to industries over here that are being run efficiently then to use the government to keep inefficient companies operating.
Maybe he should stop wasting resources and give someone else a shot then. Seems kind of selfish of your uncle to tie up those valuable resources. That's like saying no one wants to see my local puppet show because they are too busy watching tv shows made by foreigners and out of staters or what have you; and because my family has a puppeteer tradition or I inherited the capital to produce a puppet show the government should use force to limit my competition. It's nonsense.
Pumpkin, since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, i'll educate you. the u.s. dollar is worth much, much, MUCH more in mexico and s. america than here. let's say a u.s. farmer would have to sell his produce (apples) for $500/ton to make a profit. a farmer in s. america could sell his apples at $200/ton and still make an even larger profit than the u.s. farmer. no business person could compete with that. it's not about waste or inefficiency. sorry, no puppet show in this one.
insurance companies are constructed to make a profit off of you (generally by not paying out on claims). they take money and let it 'trickle down' to the health care providers. what if you could pay the same in taxes that you do in premiums and cover yourself, your brothers and sisters and mom and dad and neighbors and cousins etc etc. the tax money would go straight to the providers and not the middleman.
If health care is a right, angels should provide it for us. Paying through taxes is forcing, paying through own responsibility is of course liberty from government. I live in a country with socialized medicine and the quality is deteriorating. Government is also creeping in personal and corporate liberties to improve the quality. Fatty foods, as they consider it, is being heavily taxed and no one has anyhting to say about it. Don't support socialized medicine. You don't want doctors striking!!!
Natural rights do not impose an obligation on others except the negative obligation to refrain from violating your rights. Positive rights (also called human rights, phoney rights, wishes and more) require that the natural rights of others be violated in order to provide YOU with (fill in the blank) healthcare, education, a trip to Disney World or whatever. The statists don't understand, or don't accept, the idea of property ownership. They take your money and spend it on "entitlements".
The Lord Jesus Christ and Our Creator are the only source of protection of my body and that of my family that I can accept. I have faith that the body that God has designed for me is flawless, if I should fall ill then it is my fathers plan for my life which I accept. To interupt the natural process of "God's will" would go against my faith. To ask of me to do otherwise will be asking me to "Give up faith in God". I will do no such.
Did the Republicans really think that they could concede to the Democrats the notion that "we (i.e. the government) have to make sure everyone has coverage", and yet still somehow win the fight against Obamacare and keep it in the private sector? The Dems were fools for pushing it, and the Reps were fools for caving in on the moral side of the argument, which made the tactical loss inevitable.
The majority of people who have health insurance overuse it. The majority of people who don't work and are on Medicaid, overuse it. The majority of working people without health care just try to get by until health issues stop them from working. Working people without health care seem to be the ones most easily lead to fight against needed change that could help them be less likely to lose everything over a health problem.
@jeffmagic32 Still waiting for the exact statute that will send you to jail for not having health insurance. Gee, this is very much like the hue & cry over mandatory auto insurance, & the whinging about having to wear a seatbelt, or put your children in car seats, or wearing a helmet on a motorcycle. Don't worry, you'll get your head wrapped around this just like you did for all the other requirements of civilized life.
ah, its the mandate. If you are at the poverty level and chose not to buy federally approved health insurance, you will be fined. Chose not to pay that fine, and you will go to jail.
@jeffmagic32 Show me the language that says that people at poverty level have to buy insurance or will get fined an go to jail. On another note, how do you feel about people who drive and are forced to buy auto insurance else they are fined and lose their driver license?
In the latest version of the bill, HR 4872, for individuals at the poverty line, the fine is $750 or 2 percent of income to $695 or 2.5 percent of income for those at 130% of the poverty line. Don't pay this fine, and its just like not paying your taxes. They will fine you again, and if you don't pay that, its prison time.
Some states require people to have auto insurance. The Constitution gives far more power to the states than to the federal government, but I'm sure you know that. Besides that, driving is considered a privilege, existing is not.
@jeffmagic32 You cannot be sent to jail for not paying your taxes unless you can pay and willfully hid money. If you are not able to pay, you are not able to pay. If you can't pay $750 a year for health care then you had better have a good reason. You could quit smoking and drinking to afford it. Don't forget to pay your auto insurance, that will eventually get you jail time if you cause an accident and don't have any.
@jeffmagic32 Exactly! You'd better have a good reason for being a drain on the system if you don't pay for some health ins. If you drive I sure hope you keep your enforced auto insurance up-to-date. The reference to Obama-care is a sure sign that you get all your information in sound bites from Faux News. People cried about having to buy mandatory auto insurance & have now seen the light. I think your mythical 55 percent will, too.
Good luck trying to get to work past the mobs, the gangs, and the riots for food, clothing, shelter and a little bit of medicine. Good luck trying to run a country based on christian beliefs minus christian charity. What would Jesus do? He healed the sick, taught the poor, and imagined a better world for human beings, if they would be so kind as to follow his teachings. What a concept! The more healthy working members of society you have, the better the economy. What a concept.
@jeffmagic32 Forced charity? Where do you get that? Hmmm, maybe we ought to send all the white people back where they came from, then they won't be forced to be charitable.
@jeffmagic32 I'm right on target. Send all the white people back where they came from and you can work as indentured servants for the textile industries of Britain as things stood in the past several hundred years. Then you won't need to worry about the responsibilities that come with freedom.
@jeffmagic32 You need more work on those ineffectual ad hominem attempts. It's like you are arguing with the moon. The moon probably doesn't care, either.
Let me try and understand you. You believe that responsibilities comes with freedom, and among those responsibilities is an obligation to force your fellow citizens to pay for things that you think they should pay for. I am correct?
@jeffmagic32 I brought up skin color and going back where you came from because I knew skin color was important to you. And you took the bait and played the African card as I suspected you would.
@jeffmagic32 If skin color doesn't mean anything to you, then why did you bring up your angst over providing anything for people who are from Africa (your words)? Jeff, the magic would be in typing words that you can actually back up with documentation. If all this is just your opinion, then say so.
@jeffmagic32 You replied that you felt you were being forced to take care of people from Africa. I've never said anything except that perhaps all the white people should be sent back where they came from if they don't like it here, merely to illustrate the racial overtones of your reference to forced charity once you took the bait.
@jeffmagic32 Then you can't accuse me of making a racist comment. I get so tired of it when people play the race card. Maybe you can now get your mind of believing that you are subject to forced charity to take care of people from Africa (your words), now that you have disavowed all possible racist leanings.
@jeffmagic32 It is impossible for me to have "played the race card" unless you are accusing me of being a non-white person who is prejudiced against white people. Jest to clarify, is that what you are accusing me of? I thought you didn't care.
@jeffmagic32 You seem to believe that a fair and just society requires you to be forced to participate. Tell me this--how many Americans have to be without before you recognize that there is an inherent problem in an unbalanced system that will reduce your ability to have the finer things in life? In the early years of the united states folks fought a war to balance the scales. That could happen again while 1% have everything, 60% have nothing, and the other 39% pay the carrying costs.
@jeffmagic32 I live in the fantasy world where white people recognize their own faults, and recognize that their $5000 or less contribution to federal taxes does not constitute paying for themselves, much less anybody else.
Whether health care is a right or not, the lack of it affects the economic health of the nation. When 80% of the able-bodied portion of the population is working and only 30% of those that work are covered by health care plans then that leaves a huge part of the population without affordable health care. If you don't cover them, then many children will suffer long-term disability and never be able to work. Create a majority population of have-nots, and then try to navigate your way to work.
health care is not a right. No wheres do i see health care on the consitution. NO wheres do it see it on any of our founding documents. I beileve we have forgotten what a right is. I'll exsplain it with no reference to god. A RIGHT is something that we are garunteed REGARDLESS OF ANY GOVERNMENT BUDGET CUT. and health care can be cutt from the budget.
Of course health care is a human right, as long as the federal government has nothing to do with it. Each individual state should implement their own public option health care system if the people want it. Any individual who wants public health care pays $100 a month, discounts for students and such. There would only be minimal tax money included if necessary. This will make everyone happy.
But a few caveats: Let ALL the states retain their tax money from the federal government. Absorb and audit the FED/return power to the treasury, kick out the banks , stop the military, insurance, big pharma and other industrial/lobbying complexes. End these 3 illegal wars non priority overseas military bases. The states are going to have to star asserting their tenth amendment rights, repeal the income tax and use the rest for rebuilding America including health care.
"As long as I do not initiate force or fraud against others, I wish to live my own life in accordance with my own convictions."
The social contract is invalid. No individual, group, or government has the right the infringe upon my individual sovereignty without my consent.
The only legitimate rights are those that exist in the absense of government. They all are derived from the individual's self-ownership. All "positive" rights created by government are not rights but privileges.
Wonderful sounding ideology. Of course in the *real* modern world it is impossible not to have, at least implicitly, a social contract. , If you get hit by a car and carted off to the hospital unconscious, you will be treated whether or not you choose to buy health insurance. If you choose not to, I and my fellow citizens will be stuck with your bill through higher hospital charges to cover the losses on your bill and higher premiums next year. Those who go without coverage are freeloaders.
No, they don't have to treat me or anyone else. Government mandates that require such should be eliminated.
This example you site in which the patient is unconscious and presumably in need of life saving care represents only a small percentage of the cost passed on to others. In the *real* world, the majority of the costs passed on to others are from cases in which the uninsured patients life is not threatened and also from costs passed on by underpayment from Medicare & Medicaid.
Hey, I'm looking for someone to pay for my healthcare in 2010. I think one of those nice Democrat Congressmen should send me a check -- or at least write it in my name to pay the bill. After all healthcare is my "right", doncha' know.
This distinction between what is a "right" and what is not is almost entirely lost on the vast (VAST) majority of Americans. Both Dems and Reps have succeeded in making this a nation about ends justifying means. But discussing a concept like "rights" requires the ability to step outside of such a context. And I believe there are far too few Americans who can do so. In short, not enough of us have the intellectual capacity or foundations to even discuss this competently, let alone debate it.
@Nobama0000 Agreed! The most dangerous thing about this is that people have gone from the notion that because a person NEEDS a thing, that it somehow becomes a RIGHT. And from there it's a very short and inevitable step to "from each according to ability, to each according to need". Do we really have to go back and re-learn why that credo is so terrible?
Health care isn't a human right.The only right you are entitled to is the right to breathe some of that free air. The only rights you have are the ones you can defend.
I'm not going to let some punk fresh out of college telling me that it is my duty to give him free health care because it is a "human right".
Humans are fucking animals.The world's smartest person is no more important than the world's smartest termite.It is not reform it is pure socialization of a once great nation
What if I don't want healthcare? I do, of course, but what if I didn't? Would the gov't force me to buy it anyway? I'd have to challenge the legality of that.
As an adult, I will choose my healthcare provider. I neither need nor want the gov't to do it for me.
I think Obama knows what he can do with his totalitarian desirs.
What if you don't want the protection of police or firemen?
What if you don't want to fund foreign wars?
What if you don't have kids & don't want your taxes to fund public schools?
The point is, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU--ALONE--WANT. Your voice is only ONE. It's heard through the actions of your elected representatives and, in some cases, through direct voter initiatives. You're not a dictator.
We tried voluntary gov't in the Articles of Confederation. IT DOESN'T WORK.
Excuse me, but when did I ever say I was a dictator? In case you haven't been paying attention, the DEMOCRATS AND OTHER CREEPY LIBTARDS are trying to FORCE all of us to take healthcare. THOSE are the dictators.
I'll assume you're not entirely stupid, but I'm probably wrong.
By your silly definition, ANY tax--to which everyone is subject and which is established by our ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES is forced upon us by "dictators."
I assume you're not entirely stupid, but I'm probably wrong.
Yes, arguably fire fighters are like health care. Not putting out your neighbors fire can lead to a larger fire just like not treating health problems will lead to more expensive problems for society as a whole.
you should take a course, and learn about your constitution, and also how to be a human cause you lack compasion, dignity,honor, respect,kindness, treat others as you would like to be treated, if that does'nt bother you, that's good, because you have to look in the mirror every day for the rest of your life, then face your god
well beantown, your the type of person who'd see some one lying on the ground bleeding to death , and you'd just walk right by them, because you don't owe them anything, what about a nation where all men are created equal under one GOD, you fucking hipicrate, assholes like you have to die off so your country and world can progress not regress, you self centred, selfish, greedy fucking pig, ..stay the way you are, that'll be punishment enough, redneck
try telling that to the slaves that were linched, beat up , ripped off, raped, and any other type of injustice a human should not have to endure, if everyone looked out for one another the fucking bigshots would have no choice but to make sure EVERYONE, would be taken care of because were all in it togerther, like it or not , not bad for a white guy,, but it's the truth
Of course not. Health care is a product. A product produced by the labor of another individual. You can not lay claim to the labor of another individual. All rights carry responsibilities. All of them. If you have the right, why do I have the responsibility to pay for it? What did I do to become in debt to you?
Your right to be free includes MY right to be free from you.
I have taken a look at myself. I never claimed to be a "christian conservative". don't lump us together.
2ndly, Jesus was about taking care of the sick stemming from compassion, not compulsion. Putting a gun to my head in the form of the IRS to pay my taxes was never part of the Christian teaching. He never advocated forcing care at the tip of a Roman spear. LIkewise, I wonder how Jesus (since YOU brought it up) would feel about the liberal stance on abortion?
The MAJORITY of conservatives claim to be one. I listen to talk radio. It's rampant. That was no lumping.
lol Who's putting a spear to your neck? A safety net can be created. The people who want to have privatized medicine, can get their option too. BOTH can coexist.
I never said I was a Christian or that I was a liberal. haha In fact, I said the same about abortion yesterday. Now you wanna "lump" ME. lmao
You liberal's and your so called entitlements Are just that so called There is nothing in the Constitution that says anyone is owed a house a car healthcare or anything And as for responsibility for the poor it's an individual choice So if you socialist force this issue like all others Your just banging your head and wasting your time! WE DON't OWE ANYONE ANYTHING!!!
I'm a liberal? lol I voted for W twice. It's all about what's right my man. Saying ME ME and screw everyone else isn't right. If anything it goes against everything it means to be human. ;)
Ot's not about me me me It's about your freedom Freedom to chose or speak or do It's about your Constitutional rights being ignored They ignore the many to welfare the few They aren;t talking about helping They are talking about depending It's a dam disgrace!
What's a disgrace is how worked up people get over this. lol
Look, on one hand I don't think people should be given wte they want. We have the fattest country in the world. That's gonna take be taken into account on health costs.
Yet, at the same time the insurance companies and big businesses shouldn't be given a free pass either. That's why we're in the situation we are in now.
I believe we have the right to help each other. but Not the right to use force to help each other.
flynn2008 7 months ago 2
Did the millions of Russians that starved to death under Lenin and Stalin have 'the right' to not starve to death? Probably; but because they believed in that right, they starved to death.
guyjohn59 8 months ago
You have a right to freedom and Voluntarism, not a right to commit criminal coercion.
Coercive Sector Medical Care is criminal and all of the individuals upholding it should be charged as such. Everything should be voluntary, the opposite of criminal socialism.
qwertypoiu4321 10 months ago
@qwertypoiu4321
In the pure,natural world of biological determinism there are no 'rights' strictly speaking,esp., human rights.
The question of whether or not Health Care should be a basic right is a philosophical question regarding Americans interpretation of our Declaration Of Independence's 'right to life' stipulation as well as a basic question of the rational & moral standards a civilization seeks to set for itself.
At the moment the US is on the lunatic fringe of health rights.
thirdshift47 9 months ago
@thirdshift47 The freedom to commit criminal coercion is not a 'philosophical question', it does not exist. Everything--all goods, services and actions--should be voluntary, anyone that commits coercion should be charged as such.
qwertypoiu4321 9 months ago
@qwertypoiu4321
And what is 'criminal',much less criminal coersion?
Freedom & crime are both social constructs that appear nowhere in nature.In heirarchical civil society the ruling class generally defines crime,which is one of the reasons that libertarianism & ideologies of conscience were born.
The idea that a few people could control all basic resources & services & that the rest of the globe should just respect the 'voluntary' decision to allow everyone else to go without is scary.
thirdshift47 9 months ago
@thirdshift47 Everything--all good, services and actions--should be voluntary. Everyone that violates the Non-Coercion Principle should be charged as such. There is no such thing as the freedom to commit criminal coercion, that is a criminal action and should be charged as such.
qwertypoiu4321 9 months ago
@qwertypoiu4321 not all. upkeep of socaity is a duty and that, includes healthcare. allso, crime is not the same everywhere. complete freedome is anarchy. in order to be part of socaity you have to give out some freedomes. only reason to why things are crimes is that we make them ones. so in order to make something a crime there shuld be good reasons to it. some are abvios like murder and stealing. we all give some number of freedomes in order to have savety.
gethsoftware 7 months ago
@qwertypoiu4321 crime is something that demands consensus. for instace capital punishment is crime in my eyes and such shuld be illigal. in optimal freedoem there is no crime bechose there is no socaity or police. we sacriface freedomes for stability. thus we create rules and laws witch are made to stop anti-social actions or encourage good actions. this is reason why tribes, clans, towns,citys and nations are born. unity of community demands that we give same value to life of other as our own.
gethsoftware 7 months ago
Forcing somebody to buy health insurance is unconstitutional in America.
If healthcare is a right then you have a right to force somebody to pay for your health insurance or you have a right to force a doctor to give you treatment. How is that consistent with a free society?
JoeJC 10 months ago 2
@JoeJC -- But all it takes is to join a union and send money to the Democrats and you can get a waiver from the onerous law.
Gondring 8 months ago
Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. un charter of the un signed by the usa
kevinkards1 10 months ago
@kevinkards1 Provided by whom?
356pla 10 months ago
no. it's not.
aaroblero 1 year ago
That is utter nonsense! Not everyone should have "coverage'" not everyone should have healthcare! not everyone should have "affordable food" especially when provided at the barrel of the gun by "govt"!
If u can't afford it, if u can't pay for it, if u dont work CAREFULLY & protect ur own damn property & liberty, u dont get to buy no healthcare nor any food, clothes, homes, cars, computers, etc
its simple as that: QUID PRO QUO
swu880 1 year ago
Wow. Like minds like action. If health care is a human right then Mr. Kerrey should be compelled to work in a nursing home changing soiled beds. Doubt he would lower himself. How much would you have to pay someone like him to do the real work in healthcare.
jpollard117 1 year ago
@jpollard117 Good point! The only Rights we have are unalienable Rights. When these Rights are viewed through the prism of science (see my channel video), one will find they apply to all Life, from bacteria to humans, and Social systems, including Charles Darwin’s research; as in some Grand Unification principle for all Living-systems. Most understand the Laws of Nature trumps mortals in power; a new understanding of these Rights may help make this world a better place to live.
Mike10four 1 year ago
No one has a right to the property of another.
ReddNeckerson 1 year ago
It depends on who you ask but Health Care is not a Human Right under the US Constitution. But a Legal Right that all americans have access to Hospitals.
FRSFreeState 1 year ago
@FRSFreeState Legal Right to have access to Hospitals doesn't mean that you get it for free.
ssmusic214 1 year ago
@ssmusic214
If you can't afford to pay for your Health Care it does at least in America.
FRSFreeState 1 year ago
@FRSFreeState If it is the law, it doesn't mean it is human right.
ssmusic214 1 year ago
@ssmusic214
Your basically repeating my original comment
FRSFreeState 1 year ago
@FRSFreeState So what? Right to own the slaves was legal right too.
ssmusic214 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ssmusic214
What does that have to do with the price of gas?
FRSFreeState 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Simple answer...
No.
dlstb 1 year ago
In a civilized society, healthcare is a right. Even in the most primitive of societies, heathcare is dispensed to an entire village. It's only human and only right. It is only when we have lost our compassion that people even consider healthcare not to be a right of all citizens. At that point, I don't want to live in a country where such abject bias is felt.
friedie1jeff 1 year ago
@friedie1jeff it sounds like your providing evidence that only primitive societies think that health care is a right. LOL yes I'm being an ass, no I don't think healthcare is a right.
MirageScience 1 year ago
@MirageScience I love your sense of humor. We will have to agree to disagree!
friedie1jeff 1 year ago
@friedie1jeff My humors kick ass isn't it? xD
MirageScience 1 year ago
@friedie1jeff Nonsense! "Right" is something that you already have and can be taken away from you. Health care is something that has to be "given" to you and paid for by somebody else.
ssmusic214 1 year ago
@ssmusic214 Both "rights" and "privileges" can be taken away. The former by dictators like Stalin and Hitler, or by evil governments, and the latter by a licensing authority, such as a driver's licensing authority if you are putting other people at risk. Maybe you should live in a country that lets its people die from disease that could be cured, and you would be much happier. To your arguement, the entire society pays for health care in a civilized society that has ethics and morals.
friedie1jeff 1 year ago
@friedie1jeff If somebody else has to PAY for it , than it is not "right".
ssmusic214 1 year ago
@ssmusic214 Then I guess that we don't have a right to use the roads, bridges, or even to drink the water because someone else is paying for it. And certainly we don't have the right to a pension because, in fact, someone else is paying for that, also. More to the point, medical research in all areas is heavily subsidized by government grants, and also by corporate and private donations. So are scholarships to medical school. As such, "someone else" is paying for your medical care.
friedie1jeff 1 year ago
@friedie1jeff Hallooo..... There is no "right" for roads or bridges. Toll roads and Bridges are legal in US last time I checked.
ssmusic214 1 year ago
@ssmusic214 Tell me about interstate highways and other highways that are not toll roads. EVERYONE has the RIGHT to use them. And, just like taxes support medical research, hospital grants, physician grants and medical education grants, taxes also support those roads that are non-toll roads. We all pay for all this. Including, in a civilized society, medical care for all. We are not barbarians in this country. In fact, even barbarians care for their community.
friedie1jeff 1 year ago
@friedie1jeff If we still have toll roads and bridges and private roads, means we don't have a "right" to use any road.
And your idea of "free medical care for all" as indicator of "civilized society" makes Hitler and Stalin the most "civilized" rulers in history.
ssmusic214 1 year ago
@ssmusic214 Tell me where I said "free medical care for all"??? Anyway, we must agree to disagree.
friedie1jeff 1 year ago
@friedie1jeff You are not making any sense. You claimed health care is the "right".
RIGHTS are free. If you pay for it out of your pocket than it's not a "right".
ssmusic214 1 year ago
@ssmusic214 Of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", our fundamental rights, none are free. Not a one.
friedie1jeff 1 year ago
@friedie1jeff Yes they are free, and not given to you by anybody. You have to defend them only if somebody ties to take them away. Health care has to be given to you by somebody or paid for out of your pocket.
ssmusic214 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Yes it is that black and white.
MirageScience 1 year ago
If health care is a human right then self ownership is wrong. So no it is not a right to have health care.
MirageScience 1 year ago
@MirageScience In a civilized society, health care is a right. It has nothing to do with self ownership or free will,
friedie1jeff 1 year ago
@friedie1jeff I don't even believe in free will and yes it has everything to do with self ownership if this health care is a "right." Proclaiming such a service is a right you force people to pay for it with the money they got from their own sweat and toil.
Nothing personal
MirageScience 1 year ago
We have a right to pursue Healthcare, we do not have a right to health care. I cannot force anyone by means of government to perform a service or product for me. That is immoral.
Cleopas82 1 year ago
Healthcare is a basic human right ..
picassoui 1 year ago
Of course healthcare is a right. Just like the right to bare arms. That's very different from a government mandate to keep and bare arms or the gov't producing, buying, or conscripting spears and tanks and then distributing them. And yes I chose "spears and tanks" over the more obvious description of armament (the general and ambiguous "gun") to highlight that externalizing the process of defining what "healthcare" "is" to the government from the individual could itself be a rights violation.
PumpkinJoe999 1 year ago
Are you kidding? Youtube just hid half of my comments. You can still read them on the all comments page though.
Houshalter 1 year ago
Even if health care is a "right", the government doesn't provide rights, it defends them and refrains from infringing them itself.
Houshalter 1 year ago
also, the argument that the gubment is going to decide who get treatment is B.S. since the insurance companies already do that (and if you don't believe me, try going to an 'out of network provider' and see if they pay out). further, 'socialized medicine' seems to be ok for the old folks. since they go to the doctor more often and need prescription drugs more than young people, the insurance industry deems them unprofitable and uncle sam has to take care of them.
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
@toshindodisciple, "the insurance companies already do that" thats the point. By having a bunch of choices for which service you want, you can pick the cheapest one that fits you, and the free market creates the most efficient way to provide health care without over spending. The government doesn't do that.
"'socialized medicine' seems to be ok for the old folks." Keyword: seems. In reality it would bankrupt us if we had to pay for all of it. There's a reason insurance doesn't like it.
Houshalter 1 year ago
first, if the cheapest plant that fits you is still more than you can afford, you're s.o.l.
please explaing to me how my paying a 3rd party (insurance co.) who in turn pays as little to my provider as possible (to meet their profit margin) makes for more efficient and better healthcare.
second: we do pay for all of seniors healthcare, it's called medicare and medicaid, check your pay stub. why should insurance co's be given a free pass on the most expensive individuals.
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
i don't believe healthcare is a right but as a compassionate individual i think it can (and should) be provided to everyone by eliminating the middle-man.
the free market works great for sneakers and t.v.'s but not for essential services.
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
@toshindodisciple, "first, if the cheapest plant that fits you is still more than you can afford, you're s.o.l." Ya, so why do you believe that paying higher rates with your taxes would be a good idea? Insurance is optional, taxes are not. And the ironic thing is it doesn't make the rich poorer and the poor richer, it makes doctors filthy rich by taking money from everyone else. Unless they cap wages, which is worse since there will be less doctors of less quality. It's bad all the way around.
Houshalter 1 year ago
@Houshalter why do you presume you'd have to pay more. why couldn't you pay the same dollar amount to medicare (and cover everyone) as you do to the insurance companies. i'd even argue that you'd pay less. my father (a private business man and not a rich one by any means) had to drop his coverage because they wanted $600/month (because he's in his late 50's) and he's in good health, he rarely ever used his insurance.
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
@Houshalter also, if you're on the lower end of the income spectrum (which most people are) or are unemployed you'd pay very little to no taxes, consequently you'd not have health insurance either.
i don't care about making the rich poor or the poor rich, i'm just a bit apalled that we pay for the healthcare of incarcerated murderers and rapists while law abiding citizens (mostly lower and middle class) are allowed to die from treatable illnesses (in arguably the greatest country on earth).
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
@toshindodisciple, "please explaing to me how my paying a 3rd party (insurance co.) who in turn pays as little to my provider as possible (to meet their profit margin) makes for more efficient and better healthcare." if they can't compete against other companies they loose all their profit. If someone could do it as efficiently as you suggest the gov can, it would already be done. I'd rather own an insurance company and make meager profits then not compete and make none.
Houshalter 1 year ago
@Houshalter the insurance compaines aren't interested in meager profits, they want huge ones. that's why they let people, whom they supposedly cover, die.
would you want the best, ceapest healthcare available or the best withour regard to financial gain or loss?
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@toshindodisciple, "the insurance compaines aren't interested in meager profits, they want huge ones." everyones goal is to maximize profits. I don't know why you feel you have to tell me this. My point is the same reason every other industry finds the most efficient price system also applies to insurance companies.
Houshalter 1 year ago
@toshindodisciple, "that's why they let people, whom they supposedly cover, die." I may be wrong, but I thought in our country the hospitals have to treat life threatening diseases anyways, and that is already payed for by the government. If not, I can live with a system like that.
"would you want the best, ceapest healthcare available or the best withour regard to financial gain or loss?" That's the thing, with the governments "one size fits all" policy, you don't have a choice...
Houshalter 1 year ago
...and you have to pay whatever they charge.
Look, if the government can set up an organization run so much more efficiently then anything the private industry can muster, be my guest and set it up. But don't make it mandatory, and don't charge taxes or you are defeating the whole purpose.
"it's scientific advancement and government subsities " Scientific advances are produced by the free market, and gov subsidies make food more costly and less efficient, they only benefit farmers.
Houshalter 1 year ago
@toshindodisciple, "medicare and medicaid" were horrible ideas for the same reasons I've already gone over.
"eliminating the middle-man." The government will also have to set up offices and pay people to do the same jobs, likely for more.
"the free market works great for sneakers and t.v.'s but not for essential services." What about food? The free market made it the most efficient it's been in human history. The same applies to medicine, or would, if we got rid of the FDA.
Houshalter 1 year ago
medicare and medicaid are not horrible ideas as as the elderly all across this country depend upon them for healthcare.
the infrastructure to set up a single payer system is already in place, it basically means medicare for all, it's just expanding what already exists.
don't get me wrong, there's a lot of waste, fraud and abuse in gouvernment too, which seriously needs to be addressed.
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@toshindodisciple, "medicare and medicaid are not horrible ideas as as the elderly all across this country depend upon them for healthcare." Dependence is NOT a good thing, but if you are to argue that it is, then why can't they "depend" on the same services from private options? Many do, hell, most good doctors won't even accept patients with medicare.
Houshalter 1 year ago
@Houshalter just for clarification, it wasn't the free market that makes food cheap. it's scientific advancement and government subsities (using our tax dollars). granted, some of these scientific advancements were probably devised to increase profits. the gouvernment subsidises the farm industry because it's good for the economy. if you paid $500 a week in groceries you probably wouldn't have money to buy anything else especially non essentials like tv's and videogames.
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
@toshindodisciple, infact, I really can't think of any government projects in recent history that benefited the food industry. Back before the 1930's crop breeding was done by universities and paid for by the government as a public project, but then private companies started doing it better and out-competing. All the farm equipment and products today are done by the free market.
"if you paid $500 a week in groceries" The government pays farmers not to work to raise the price of food.
Houshalter 1 year ago
@Houshalter it's the huge agribusinesses, such as ConAgra, that get the huge subsidies not small individual farmers, unfortunately. small farmers can't compete so the get gobbled up by mega corporations. most of the subsidies go to the corn and meat industry. you may (or may not) be surprised at how much corn is in your diet in the form of highfructose cornsyrup, it's in virtually everything. the corn lobbies bribe our congressmen and in turn get big subsidies.
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
@toshindodisciple, yes, so can we agree that subsidies are generally a bad thing?
Oh for crying out loud, don't go into "outsourcing is a bad thing." It means that our economy has finally improved enough no one wants to do those jobs (like working in a sweat shop) or else we can't do them as efficiently. When a dollar goes overseas, what is it worth over there? Nothing. China prints yuans, not dollars. The only way they can get value out of it is by spending it on American products.
Houshalter 1 year ago
i guess my point is that if americans are working, producing goods, they earn money to buy products (ideally made here), thus stimulating our own economy. that's why, if given a choice, i'll pay a few buck more to buy something made in the good ol' u s of a vs china or taiwan.
also, there's an exchange rate for currency. that's how we can borrow money from china, to pay for things here and now and let our kids and grands kis pay for it in the future.
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
@toshindodisciple, yes, but when you buy something overseas, they get the money, and because it's worthless to them otherwise, they have to trade it for American goods and services, which do make jobs and stimulate our economy, or else they trade it to someone who does want something over here.
And our grandkids won't pay for anything. All market transactions happen immediatly, with immediate effects.
Houshalter 1 year ago
ok, truly last one, i promise.
if american currency was worthless outside of the us, why does china export so many goods to be purchased here using american dollars? the dollar most definitely has worth ouside the us, it's the most recognized and accepted form currency on the planet because of it's worth. it can be exchanged for local currency anywhere.
you'd better believe that future generations are going to pay the debt we incur, national debt=money we owe ther countries, mostly china.
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
@toshindodisciple, it has worth outside the US because it has real value. If the US abandonned the dollar, it would most certainly be worthless.
And what are they going to do, invade us? And as long as the investors have knowledge of stuff like this, they factor it into their decisions. If you know that massive inflation will happen in X years, it affects the marketplace NOW, as players adapt startegies to this information.
Houshalter 1 year ago
sigh, i guess i'm a liar.
of course if we dropped the dollar it'd be worthless. money is only paper, it only has the value we place on it. that's why it can be worth more or less than a week or a year ago.
no they wouldn't invade but they'd stop loaning to us. but then how would we cover our annual deficit? if we pay back, our credit is good and they keep loaning. high deficit and no credit=slipping into 2nd or 3rd world status. we can look abroad and see what that's like.
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
@Houshalter also, the free market is in some ways bad for american business and farmers. manufacturers can't compete with the low overhead of sweatshot labor, that's why all our manufacturing jobs are going overseas. small time american farmers can't compete with the low cost of foreign produce. much of our produce comes from mexico and south america. my uncle owns a pear and apple orchard in oregon, he's always complaining about how he can't compete with them and is going broke.
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
@toshindodisciple, so anyways, sorry about your uncle, but I would rather have greater purchasing power with my money (through cheaper products) and have more money allocated to industries over here that are being run efficiently then to use the government to keep inefficient companies operating.
Houshalter 1 year ago
@toshindodisciple
Maybe he should stop wasting resources and give someone else a shot then. Seems kind of selfish of your uncle to tie up those valuable resources. That's like saying no one wants to see my local puppet show because they are too busy watching tv shows made by foreigners and out of staters or what have you; and because my family has a puppeteer tradition or I inherited the capital to produce a puppet show the government should use force to limit my competition. It's nonsense.
PumpkinJoe999 1 year ago
Comment removed
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
Pumpkin, since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, i'll educate you. the u.s. dollar is worth much, much, MUCH more in mexico and s. america than here. let's say a u.s. farmer would have to sell his produce (apples) for $500/ton to make a profit. a farmer in s. america could sell his apples at $200/ton and still make an even larger profit than the u.s. farmer. no business person could compete with that. it's not about waste or inefficiency. sorry, no puppet show in this one.
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
insurance companies are constructed to make a profit off of you (generally by not paying out on claims). they take money and let it 'trickle down' to the health care providers. what if you could pay the same in taxes that you do in premiums and cover yourself, your brothers and sisters and mom and dad and neighbors and cousins etc etc. the tax money would go straight to the providers and not the middleman.
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
Comment removed
toshindodisciple 1 year ago
These people are idiots... they never even discuss what SHOULD be the case... they simply observe what "people are saying".
There is no thought process here... just politicians surfing the prevailing winds.
RyderSpearmann 1 year ago 2
"Is Health Care a Human Right?"
No.
There, I saved you 2 and a half minutes of your life.
PersonguydudeWB 1 year ago 2
If health care is a right, angels should provide it for us. Paying through taxes is forcing, paying through own responsibility is of course liberty from government. I live in a country with socialized medicine and the quality is deteriorating. Government is also creeping in personal and corporate liberties to improve the quality. Fatty foods, as they consider it, is being heavily taxed and no one has anyhting to say about it. Don't support socialized medicine. You don't want doctors striking!!!
eric5335 1 year ago
Freedom to travel is a basic human right, too. I need a Harley, a Winnebago and a 100cc scooter.
Nobama0000 1 year ago
@Nobama0000 Or you could walk.
booley 1 year ago
Natural rights do not impose an obligation on others except the negative obligation to refrain from violating your rights. Positive rights (also called human rights, phoney rights, wishes and more) require that the natural rights of others be violated in order to provide YOU with (fill in the blank) healthcare, education, a trip to Disney World or whatever. The statists don't understand, or don't accept, the idea of property ownership. They take your money and spend it on "entitlements".
jscottupton 1 year ago
The Lord Jesus Christ and Our Creator are the only source of protection of my body and that of my family that I can accept. I have faith that the body that God has designed for me is flawless, if I should fall ill then it is my fathers plan for my life which I accept. To interupt the natural process of "God's will" would go against my faith. To ask of me to do otherwise will be asking me to "Give up faith in God". I will do no such.
cagedchild 1 year ago
it is NOT A HUMAN RIGHT case closed
Dadutta 1 year ago
Free healthcare for all! Especially for the chiiiiiiiiiildren!
Nobama0000 1 year ago
Did the Republicans really think that they could concede to the Democrats the notion that "we (i.e. the government) have to make sure everyone has coverage", and yet still somehow win the fight against Obamacare and keep it in the private sector? The Dems were fools for pushing it, and the Reps were fools for caving in on the moral side of the argument, which made the tactical loss inevitable.
nasaguy 1 year ago
The majority of people who have health insurance overuse it. The majority of people who don't work and are on Medicaid, overuse it. The majority of working people without health care just try to get by until health issues stop them from working. Working people without health care seem to be the ones most easily lead to fight against needed change that could help them be less likely to lose everything over a health problem.
toounfazed 1 year ago
translation - buy health insurance or go to jail
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 Show me that statute. If you can't find it I'll forgive you for believing wingnut neo-con lies.
toounfazed 1 year ago
the statute showing what?
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 Still waiting for the exact statute that will send you to jail for not having health insurance. Gee, this is very much like the hue & cry over mandatory auto insurance, & the whinging about having to wear a seatbelt, or put your children in car seats, or wearing a helmet on a motorcycle. Don't worry, you'll get your head wrapped around this just like you did for all the other requirements of civilized life.
toounfazed 1 year ago
ah, its the mandate. If you are at the poverty level and chose not to buy federally approved health insurance, you will be fined. Chose not to pay that fine, and you will go to jail.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 Show me the language that says that people at poverty level have to buy insurance or will get fined an go to jail. On another note, how do you feel about people who drive and are forced to buy auto insurance else they are fined and lose their driver license?
toounfazed 1 year ago
In the latest version of the bill, HR 4872, for individuals at the poverty line, the fine is $750 or 2 percent of income to $695 or 2.5 percent of income for those at 130% of the poverty line. Don't pay this fine, and its just like not paying your taxes. They will fine you again, and if you don't pay that, its prison time.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
Some states require people to have auto insurance. The Constitution gives far more power to the states than to the federal government, but I'm sure you know that. Besides that, driving is considered a privilege, existing is not.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 You cannot be sent to jail for not paying your taxes unless you can pay and willfully hid money. If you are not able to pay, you are not able to pay. If you can't pay $750 a year for health care then you had better have a good reason. You could quit smoking and drinking to afford it. Don't forget to pay your auto insurance, that will eventually get you jail time if you cause an accident and don't have any.
toounfazed 1 year ago
Your first point about not being sent to jail for inability to pay your taxes is pure fabrication.
This is a direct quote from you - "If you can't pay $750 a year for health care then you had better have a good reason."
That sentiment is why 55% of the American people favor a repeal of the so-called Obama-care legislation.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 Exactly! You'd better have a good reason for being a drain on the system if you don't pay for some health ins. If you drive I sure hope you keep your enforced auto insurance up-to-date. The reference to Obama-care is a sure sign that you get all your information in sound bites from Faux News. People cried about having to buy mandatory auto insurance & have now seen the light. I think your mythical 55 percent will, too.
toounfazed 1 year ago
I demand nothing of you or your beloved system.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
"health care is a right" = the government can throw you in jail for not buying health insurance
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
Good luck trying to get to work past the mobs, the gangs, and the riots for food, clothing, shelter and a little bit of medicine. Good luck trying to run a country based on christian beliefs minus christian charity. What would Jesus do? He healed the sick, taught the poor, and imagined a better world for human beings, if they would be so kind as to follow his teachings. What a concept! The more healthy working members of society you have, the better the economy. What a concept.
toounfazed 1 year ago
I'm not a Christian, but I don't think Jesus would approve of forced charity.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 Forced charity? Where do you get that? Hmmm, maybe we ought to send all the white people back where they came from, then they won't be forced to be charitable.
toounfazed 1 year ago
You're pretty confused.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 I'm right on target. Send all the white people back where they came from and you can work as indentured servants for the textile industries of Britain as things stood in the past several hundred years. Then you won't need to worry about the responsibilities that come with freedom.
toounfazed 1 year ago
I'm sorry if true freedom is too scary for you to handle. Some need to be led.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 You need more work on those ineffectual ad hominem attempts. It's like you are arguing with the moon. The moon probably doesn't care, either.
toounfazed 1 year ago
Let me try and understand you. You believe that responsibilities comes with freedom, and among those responsibilities is an obligation to force your fellow citizens to pay for things that you think they should pay for. I am correct?
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
Also, you seem to believe that the descendants of indentured servants owe free health care to the people of Africa for some strange reason.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 Africa? What on earth are you talking about? Are you a white racist, by any chance, or just melanin challenged?
toounfazed 1 year ago
You are the one bringing up national original as though it means anything.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 I brought up skin color and going back where you came from because I knew skin color was important to you. And you took the bait and played the African card as I suspected you would.
toounfazed 1 year ago
Comment removed
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
skin color means nothing to me. I'm sorry if it is important to you.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 If skin color doesn't mean anything to you, then why did you bring up your angst over providing anything for people who are from Africa (your words)? Jeff, the magic would be in typing words that you can actually back up with documentation. If all this is just your opinion, then say so.
toounfazed 1 year ago
you brought up race and national origins, not me.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 You replied that you felt you were being forced to take care of people from Africa. I've never said anything except that perhaps all the white people should be sent back where they came from if they don't like it here, merely to illustrate the racial overtones of your reference to forced charity once you took the bait.
toounfazed 1 year ago
your "bait" was a bizarre and clearly racist comment.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 How can it be racist? Are you a white person accusing me of not being a white person? That is really bizarre.
toounfazed 1 year ago
I don't know, and I don't care what color you are.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 Then you can't accuse me of making a racist comment. I get so tired of it when people play the race card. Maybe you can now get your mind of believing that you are subject to forced charity to take care of people from Africa (your words), now that you have disavowed all possible racist leanings.
toounfazed 1 year ago
You played the race card, not me.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 It is impossible for me to have "played the race card" unless you are accusing me of being a non-white person who is prejudiced against white people. Jest to clarify, is that what you are accusing me of? I thought you didn't care.
toounfazed 1 year ago
Like I said, I don't care what color you are. But clearly, you did play the race card, not me.
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 You seem to believe that a fair and just society requires you to be forced to participate. Tell me this--how many Americans have to be without before you recognize that there is an inherent problem in an unbalanced system that will reduce your ability to have the finer things in life? In the early years of the united states folks fought a war to balance the scales. That could happen again while 1% have everything, 60% have nothing, and the other 39% pay the carrying costs.
toounfazed 1 year ago
what sort of fantasy world do you live in?
jeffmagic32 1 year ago
@jeffmagic32 I live in the fantasy world where white people recognize their own faults, and recognize that their $5000 or less contribution to federal taxes does not constitute paying for themselves, much less anybody else.
toounfazed 1 year ago
Whether health care is a right or not, the lack of it affects the economic health of the nation. When 80% of the able-bodied portion of the population is working and only 30% of those that work are covered by health care plans then that leaves a huge part of the population without affordable health care. If you don't cover them, then many children will suffer long-term disability and never be able to work. Create a majority population of have-nots, and then try to navigate your way to work.
toounfazed 1 year ago
Rights are not granted by government tyrants. Saying health care is a right is a simple excuse for tyranny.
stater68 1 year ago
health care is not a right. No wheres do i see health care on the consitution. NO wheres do it see it on any of our founding documents. I beileve we have forgotten what a right is. I'll exsplain it with no reference to god. A RIGHT is something that we are garunteed REGARDLESS OF ANY GOVERNMENT BUDGET CUT. and health care can be cutt from the budget.
GodAthie 1 year ago
Of course health care is a human right, as long as the federal government has nothing to do with it. Each individual state should implement their own public option health care system if the people want it. Any individual who wants public health care pays $100 a month, discounts for students and such. There would only be minimal tax money included if necessary. This will make everyone happy.
biped19 2 years ago
But a few caveats: Let ALL the states retain their tax money from the federal government. Absorb and audit the FED/return power to the treasury, kick out the banks , stop the military, insurance, big pharma and other industrial/lobbying complexes. End these 3 illegal wars non priority overseas military bases. The states are going to have to star asserting their tenth amendment rights, repeal the income tax and use the rest for rebuilding America including health care.
biped19 2 years ago
"As long as I do not initiate force or fraud against others, I wish to live my own life in accordance with my own convictions."
The social contract is invalid. No individual, group, or government has the right the infringe upon my individual sovereignty without my consent.
The only legitimate rights are those that exist in the absense of government. They all are derived from the individual's self-ownership. All "positive" rights created by government are not rights but privileges.
bcsizemore 2 years ago
Wonderful sounding ideology. Of course in the *real* modern world it is impossible not to have, at least implicitly, a social contract. , If you get hit by a car and carted off to the hospital unconscious, you will be treated whether or not you choose to buy health insurance. If you choose not to, I and my fellow citizens will be stuck with your bill through higher hospital charges to cover the losses on your bill and higher premiums next year. Those who go without coverage are freeloaders.
crandlee 2 years ago
No, they don't have to treat me or anyone else. Government mandates that require such should be eliminated.
This example you site in which the patient is unconscious and presumably in need of life saving care represents only a small percentage of the cost passed on to others. In the *real* world, the majority of the costs passed on to others are from cases in which the uninsured patients life is not threatened and also from costs passed on by underpayment from Medicare & Medicaid.
bcsizemore 2 years ago
Hey, I'm looking for someone to pay for my healthcare in 2010. I think one of those nice Democrat Congressmen should send me a check -- or at least write it in my name to pay the bill. After all healthcare is my "right", doncha' know.
Nobama0000 2 years ago
I have the right to enslave my fellow man to provide me with my rights?
markbhoward 2 years ago
This distinction between what is a "right" and what is not is almost entirely lost on the vast (VAST) majority of Americans. Both Dems and Reps have succeeded in making this a nation about ends justifying means. But discussing a concept like "rights" requires the ability to step outside of such a context. And I believe there are far too few Americans who can do so. In short, not enough of us have the intellectual capacity or foundations to even discuss this competently, let alone debate it.
swebbie 2 years ago 6
There is only one right granted to all humans. Death.
needparalegal 2 years ago 3
Food and shelter are more essential than health care. Let's make them "human rights", too!
Nobama0000 2 years ago 6
We already have welfare and Medicaid for that.
Savior20061 2 years ago
Its all relative. If you have cancer or heart disease, that will kill you faster than sleeping on park benches.
needparalegal 2 years ago
Wow. it never occurred to me that anyone thought they weren't. You're a cold mother fucker.
Neweddy24 2 years ago
No because then you're living in a socialist country.
masonkiller666 2 years ago
The Official UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights says just that.
bcsizemore 2 years ago
@Nobama0000 Agreed! The most dangerous thing about this is that people have gone from the notion that because a person NEEDS a thing, that it somehow becomes a RIGHT. And from there it's a very short and inevitable step to "from each according to ability, to each according to need". Do we really have to go back and re-learn why that credo is so terrible?
nasaguy 1 year ago
@Nobama0000
Health care isn't a human right.The only right you are entitled to is the right to breathe some of that free air. The only rights you have are the ones you can defend.
I'm not going to let some punk fresh out of college telling me that it is my duty to give him free health care because it is a "human right".
Humans are fucking animals.The world's smartest person is no more important than the world's smartest termite.It is not reform it is pure socialization of a once great nation
momohasaids 1 year ago
@Nobama0000 good point
UniteForgetLeftRight 1 year ago
What if I don't want healthcare? I do, of course, but what if I didn't? Would the gov't force me to buy it anyway? I'd have to challenge the legality of that.
As an adult, I will choose my healthcare provider. I neither need nor want the gov't to do it for me.
I think Obama knows what he can do with his totalitarian desirs.
MrExnihilo 2 years ago
What if you don't want the protection of police or firemen?
What if you don't want to fund foreign wars?
What if you don't have kids & don't want your taxes to fund public schools?
The point is, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU--ALONE--WANT. Your voice is only ONE. It's heard through the actions of your elected representatives and, in some cases, through direct voter initiatives. You're not a dictator.
We tried voluntary gov't in the Articles of Confederation. IT DOESN'T WORK.
Basic civics dude!
FanOfDjorno 2 years ago 2
Excuse me, but when did I ever say I was a dictator? In case you haven't been paying attention, the DEMOCRATS AND OTHER CREEPY LIBTARDS are trying to FORCE all of us to take healthcare. THOSE are the dictators.
I'll assume you're not entirely stupid, but I'm probably wrong.
MrExnihilo 2 years ago
By your silly definition, ANY tax--to which everyone is subject and which is established by our ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES is forced upon us by "dictators."
I assume you're not entirely stupid, but I'm probably wrong.
FanOfDjorno 2 years ago
Yes, arguably fire fighters are like health care. Not putting out your neighbors fire can lead to a larger fire just like not treating health problems will lead to more expensive problems for society as a whole.
needparalegal 2 years ago
But it's almost like saying (key word Almost) I don't want food. Everyone knows are bodies will crap out someday.
GamerJerks 2 years ago
you should take a course, and learn about your constitution, and also how to be a human cause you lack compasion, dignity,honor, respect,kindness, treat others as you would like to be treated, if that does'nt bother you, that's good, because you have to look in the mirror every day for the rest of your life, then face your god
backbeats100 2 years ago
well beantown, your the type of person who'd see some one lying on the ground bleeding to death , and you'd just walk right by them, because you don't owe them anything, what about a nation where all men are created equal under one GOD, you fucking hipicrate, assholes like you have to die off so your country and world can progress not regress, you self centred, selfish, greedy fucking pig, ..stay the way you are, that'll be punishment enough, redneck
backbeats100 2 years ago
try telling that to the slaves that were linched, beat up , ripped off, raped, and any other type of injustice a human should not have to endure, if everyone looked out for one another the fucking bigshots would have no choice but to make sure EVERYONE, would be taken care of because were all in it togerther, like it or not , not bad for a white guy,, but it's the truth
backbeats100 2 years ago
Is health care a right?
Of course not. Health care is a product. A product produced by the labor of another individual. You can not lay claim to the labor of another individual. All rights carry responsibilities. All of them. If you have the right, why do I have the responsibility to pay for it? What did I do to become in debt to you?
Your right to be free includes MY right to be free from you.
klim8hokes 2 years ago 2
I love how these people call themselves Christian Conservatives. lol The two terms count each other out.
Conservatives are for "values" and the old tradition. Jesus was about change and taking care of the sick.
So if you take the attitude of "It's all about me and screw everyone else", then you really need to look at yourself.
BeginnningoftheEnd 2 years ago
I have taken a look at myself. I never claimed to be a "christian conservative". don't lump us together.
2ndly, Jesus was about taking care of the sick stemming from compassion, not compulsion. Putting a gun to my head in the form of the IRS to pay my taxes was never part of the Christian teaching. He never advocated forcing care at the tip of a Roman spear. LIkewise, I wonder how Jesus (since YOU brought it up) would feel about the liberal stance on abortion?
klim8hokes 2 years ago 2
The MAJORITY of conservatives claim to be one. I listen to talk radio. It's rampant. That was no lumping.
lol Who's putting a spear to your neck? A safety net can be created. The people who want to have privatized medicine, can get their option too. BOTH can coexist.
I never said I was a Christian or that I was a liberal. haha In fact, I said the same about abortion yesterday. Now you wanna "lump" ME. lmao
BeginnningoftheEnd 2 years ago
You liberal's and your so called entitlements Are just that so called There is nothing in the Constitution that says anyone is owed a house a car healthcare or anything And as for responsibility for the poor it's an individual choice So if you socialist force this issue like all others Your just banging your head and wasting your time! WE DON't OWE ANYONE ANYTHING!!!
BeantownJim 2 years ago 3
I'm a liberal? lol I voted for W twice. It's all about what's right my man. Saying ME ME and screw everyone else isn't right. If anything it goes against everything it means to be human. ;)
BeginnningoftheEnd 2 years ago
Ot's not about me me me It's about your freedom Freedom to chose or speak or do It's about your Constitutional rights being ignored They ignore the many to welfare the few They aren;t talking about helping They are talking about depending It's a dam disgrace!
BeantownJim 2 years ago 2
What's a disgrace is how worked up people get over this. lol
Look, on one hand I don't think people should be given wte they want. We have the fattest country in the world. That's gonna take be taken into account on health costs.
Yet, at the same time the insurance companies and big businesses shouldn't be given a free pass either. That's why we're in the situation we are in now.
BeginnningoftheEnd 2 years ago