Thom Hartmann: To be a follower of Ayn Rand - is it necessary to be an atheist?

[mcufre]

Its so ironic, because if you wanna support the needy, which are an overwhelming amount of the world population, you actually need people to create industry, and to create industry you need selfish motivation. You can't force people to be industrious for the sake of the needy. In any case you can let people succeed and expect that their success will create success for everyone. The only other choice is to enslave people. In this regard, I totally agree with libertarianism.

[UnchainTheNight1]

Wow, defending Ayn Rand against Thom Hartmann? I never thought this would have to happen. Thom is full of shit here. Normally, he makes good (but often overstated) points; this is just an outright butchering of journalism. This is something Glenn Beck would do.

[IHeartDenver]

It is 100% necessary to be an atheist if you wish to support Capitalism. If you accept the morality of Jesus Christ, of self sacrifice, of loving ones neighbors as yourself. Christians who claim the name of "capitalists" are contradictions. Christ would have dismissed capitalism & the moral reasoning behind it. As an objectivist, it hits a nerve when I hear the right claim Ayn Rand. They have no idea what they're talking about. Additionally, these men are idiots.

[IHeartDenver]

It is 100% necessary to be an atheist if you wish to support Capitalism. If you accept the morality of Jesus Christ, of self sacrifice, of loving ones neighbors as yourself. Christians who claim the name of "capitalists" are contradictions. Christ would have dismissed capitalism & the moral reasoning behind it. As an objectivist, it hits a nerve when I hear the right claim Ayn Rand. They have no idea what they're talking about.

[scottvska]

What is the logical connection between austerity measures and objectivism?

[annata12]

Not that i defend Ayn Rand, since she was very short sighted as to what lies in a persona rational self interest, which often manifests as pure self interest with not interest into society, which i contend is not rational! You don't wanna be a rich person in a poor country, that's not rational

[annata12]

Ayn Rand did not promote what those Republicans promote, she promoted rational self interest which is something different than the irrational self interest those dumb bible thumper promote

[agiann1]

I wish people would stop using the word "Folks" it is pathetic!

[agiann1]

Rand paid into social security many years, She earned it, Rand did not sit around and do nothing waiting for others to feed her and support her, She did not cheat or lie or scam the government out of money, This was her reward for paying into the system all these years like so many other Americans. Rand did not approve a welfare system/state because it creates bottom feeders, they don't put a penny into the system and yet they are entitled to it without doing anything for it. Makes sense to me.

[agiann1]

One more thing I do not know one christian that absolutely lives by the words of Jesus Christ, not one, they pick and choose what suits them and the situation they are in.

I believe in giving and helping others but I first and foremost believe in myself and my happiness, only then can I be of value to myself and to others.

[agiann1]

America was founded on Aristotles values!! :-) Government should not be influenced by any religious belief, this is a personal thing.

Here we are 2012 if i say to a christian that I am not sure if I believe in GOD they look at me as if I am a complete moron, they are arrogant and foolish. I tell them that my life and what I do with it is completely up to me so long as I do good and yes i do come first.

[poindexterwitkowsky]

The Christian Right (CR)& Republicans often state that America was founded on Judeo Christian values. America's founding fathers were predominantly ATHEISTS& DEISTS. Republicans use abortion&gay rights issues to divide America during elections&to get CR support. After elections such issues are conveniently forgotten. By referencing biblical prophecy, the Isreal Lobby uses the CR to ensure that BILLIONS in U.S. tax$s keep flowing to Isreal. CHRISTIAN RIGHT A.K.A. USEFUL IDIOTS



[St1kyFinguz]

Oh look a religious authoritarian and a Marxist socialist Have a problem with Ayn Rand....who could have seen that coming... Objectivism is a simple premiss "Have you accepted yourself as your own personal lord and savior"? How shocking is it that the 2 ideologues with their hands in your pocket.

[Frater8]

Stone someone to death, slavery, child murder, anti-homosexual, segregation is also part of the teachings of the Christian faith. You can try and defend it with the clean cut representing guy all you want. But it doesn't change you cherry pick from the bible, unfortunately for you your own book defeats your arguments.

[xdir]

@Frater8 Its not about defending the Bible, its about exposing how politicians who constantly claim to be Christians and "followers of christ" also advocating Ayn Rand - You can either be a Christian or a Randian, you cannot be both.

[republicunderground]

This show will ruin RT, this guy is so Disingenuous his show should be called the "the myopic window" just another desperate Marxist looter, ask yourself Thom, who is John Galt?

[gorgorybmus]

@republicunderground Ha ha! So easy to throw out the "Marxist" tag... sorry if the truth blisters you sense of self.

[regresseur]

In these particular clips of Rand is the most savage cherry picking of quotations I've ever seen in my life. Look, these interviews are right here on YouTube - go watch them for yourself, if for no other reason than to prevent others from manipulating your mind; listen to them - her explanations / reasoning(s) and then decide for yourself.

[Rayosun4]

Tom Hartmann, I admire you as one of the most brilliant speaker-writers around, and I would recommend that you post a correction of the last argument which you made at the tail-end of this otherwise excellent video.

I don't see any problem in Rand collecting the benefits from programs she had been forced to pay into all of her working life, any more than it would be right to deny benefits to rich people on the grounds that they don't need them.

[SuperGeniusLife]

All atheists are son of bitch!

[bajts1]

the religous wrong is the a terrible thing happening to this country

[pandurate]

@Owltalons Because money and power are what it's all about. They're about as "Christian" as a pebble. Then again, the average Christian is a complete hypocrite as well.

[GermAmp55]

Atheistic budget? I'm a socialist atheist and i don't like being put in with her kind...



[RealLiveDebates]

@GermAmp55 Yes, you belong with Hartmann's kind. The kind that puts feelings over reason and logic.



[ORagnar]

Hartmann is not the most honest guy in the world, and Sapp does his best to evade an understanding of Ayn Rand's philosophy. It is true that Ayn Rand had no truck with religion, but she wasn't militantly anti-religious. What she was was pro-reason and reality. And the morality she espoused was for life and happiness on earth. It's a very pro-life philosophy. Remember "The Pursuit Of Happiness" is written in stone in America's founding, not "suffer and die".

[agiann1]

@ORagnar Makes sense to me :-)

[modernorpheus]

The Right has been pro-big business, anti-worker long before they started quoting Ayn Rand.

[gus6513]

I think there is a huge missunderstanding when they talk about Atheism, I don't think We the Ath are people of no faith, but people whose faith is only in the 'people', Humankind can beleave in himself, a little bit in casualty and cero in God or Evil (bouth are the same concept for me).

[BrettAubrey]

"Heads might explode"... Clown.

[RealLiveDebates]

Ayn Rand FTW! So glad to see her being discussed. Even her critics are starting to discuss her.

And no Hartman, our heads wouldn't explode. I'm well aware and support her decision to collect medicare and welfare checks. It is not contrary to Objectivism to reclaim a portion of your stolen goods if it's possible to do so. There is no way she collected anything near what she was FORCED to give up to the Gov't

[SCRYER1973]

@RealLiveDebates: Say it brother!

[modernorpheus]

@gary100dm I found your post replying to truthout911 was flagged as spam. It's sad that people try so hard to silence anyone they disagree with.

[gary100dm]

It's nice to see a Christian on the media promoting the social gospel, these are values that Secular Humanists can agree with, albeit without God. Jesus the Nazarene supported human dignity and values of compassion. Not the values of bankers and greed. - Gary

[truthout911]

Hartmann is the biggest CUNT at RT!

[truthout911]

I guess a lot of so called progressives and liberals are followers of Ayn Rand to, and Bill Maher and Chris Hitchens delivered them to atheism.

[bohemianwriter1]

The "judeo" thing in American politics and religion was never an issue when antismeittism was rabbid in the years before....

Any jackass whom goes to any of these megachurches coming to comment and deny here is fair game!

[bradw2k]

Sapp: "If you are saying you follow both of them, you clearly don't understand at least one of them." That is spot on.

[soonhewilldrink]

Necessary, no. Similarly, you can be an anti-gay televangelist while hiring male prostitutes.

[MagnificentSeanT]

Eric Sapp is an idiot. Ayn Rands atheism doesn't overshadow her political philosophy, any more than Thomas Jefferson's deism doesn't overshadow the ideas of the enlightenment. Jefferson straight up re-wrote the bible and took out all references to divinity surrounding Jesus Christ. By Eric Sapp's standards, he is an apostate who denied the holy spirit and is burning in hell so nobody ever should have listened to him.

[soonhewilldrink]

@MagnificentSeanT

//Ayn Rands atheism doesn't overshadow her political philosophy//

Her political philosophy is only one part of a synoptic philosophy that incorporates metaphysics, ontology, ethics, epistemology, and axiology. You can't pick and choose;  take out something as fundamental as her atheism and materialism, and her entire arguments becomes invalid, even by her own admission.

[xxcrysad3000xx]

@MagnificentSeanT I think his argument is that her moral philosophy flies in the face of a great deal of Judeo-Christian doctrine, not that her atheism somehow undermines her political philosophy. He's pointing out the the incongruity of certain American politicians who proclaim to be followers of Rand and at the same time followers of Jesus, not Ayn Rand's work as a whole. On that ground I think he's correct, as the two seem to me to be mutually exclusive to me.

[booley]

I wish they would stop equating atheism with ayn rand.

Religions have rules about helping others because it's a good idea. The religions just used "Gawd" to justify it.

Being an atheist does not make you more likely to be a selfish a hole.

Being religious does not stop you from being a selfish a hole.

Using religion to explain why Rand was wrong just misses the point of why she's wrong.

[MrAdvancedAtheist]

Capitalists have done far more for meeting the world's material needs than any mythological Jewish prophet. Yet progressive goofs like Thom attack the character of our society's most productive people and expect them to live as hostages under threat of violence and rapine. And now they rationalize it as an application of the teachings of Jesus! China's millionaires, by contrast, have started to act like Randian heroes by leaving China with their money to escape their "progressives."

[john42t]

@MrAdvancedAtheist You have it right, but they have started to "pervert" the word of Christ since the reformation. That's when Christians have in fact become little almost-Randroids. :-)

[Rayosun4]

"Since the Reformation", @john42t ????

Anybody who knows anything about the history of the church knows that there was infinitely more corruption in the church BEFORE the Reformation than AFTER.  Even Roman Catholics who may not appreciate what the Reformers set up in opposition to their church owe the Reformers a debt of gratitude for the improvements made WITHIN their own church! Rev. Ray Dubuque (once an RC priest, then a Protestant clergyman.)

[john42t]

@Rayosun4 Exactly my point. Note the quotes around the word "pervert". My somewhat unusual view is that Christianity was something bad up until the reformation, at which point it was "perverted" into something good. That is what American Christians still largely refer to as "Christianity" and it must be a bitter irony for them that the bible don't actually support their values.

[badaboomrock]

well done Thom 

[BannedUfos]

Excellent display of hypocracy. These people worship the golden calf, not the Bible.

[BeingNobody1956]

it is impossible to say that one has any level of morality when one openly advocates that the only person of importance in the world is self. self cannot exist independently of society

[dragon8me2]

A must see 4 all Christians.

[john42t]

@dragon8me2 And atheists.

[Homer177]

I don't have a problem with her taking either medicare or social security. I DO have a problem with the fact that she and her Randroid followers preach the gospel of 'We got here ourselves,' while this was and is never the case. Honestly, Randroids just like to play the FYIGM card.

[OuTofJoY]

The moral content of the New Testament is perhaps one of the most valorized yet unheeded sources of religion on the planet.

The NT Jesus and the early Christian community described in the book of Acts lived as COMMUNISTS, and condemned authoritarian leadership ("the heathens lord over one another...it shall not be so amongst you", etc)

[670Kiester]

wow