The powered rails will raise the speed of minecart up to some limit, so it's better if the powered rails are scattered so that the minecart will have some boost all the time.
At ~6:52 you make a slight mistake by saying "the difference between the slowest and the fastest". Instead of compairing distance you compared speed which is not the same. But it could as well be the fastest. :)
what do you do for a living? you sound very intelligent and educated. Are you a science or engineering major in college? or are you an actual engineer or researcher? just wondering.
@TaviRider hah thats kinda funny i just finished my cornell app yesterday! goin for bio at CALS (pre med track most likely), but engineering was another path i was considering. what years did you go to cornell? and who do you program for and how do you like doing that for a living?
@Foodoff527 Good luck with your application! I was amazed when I got in. College was EXPENSIVE though... couldn't afford to finish my bachelors. I was there...a very long time ago. :) Had I graduated I would've been class of '94. Now I'm working for a company called MobileIron and really enjoying it.
What I think is happening on the downward slope test is that the booster tracks "multiply" speed/ momentum instead of adding it, when the top one reaches the bottom it has a greater speed/momentum than the other carts; bigger initial speed value*8x booster multiplier -> more momentum/speed than the other carts :D.
@adz556 My overall channel has nearly 1 million views, compared to Seananners' 108 million views. He's been doing this at least twice as long as I have, he covers multiple games while I only do Minecraft, and he was one of the very first people to do a Minecraft video that became popular. Being the first makes a HUGE difference, because most popular videos after that one end up linking back to the first.
The friction being exponential means that you're generally going to get the furthest boost if you've got more powered rail toward the end of the boost area. In the case of the down slope you let the carts accumulate the most energy they can from the slope and then the block of powered rails prevents any of that energy from being lost as friction until the end position.
@MrUrbackup The definition of "east" is "the direction toward which the Earth rotates about its axis, and therefore the general direction from which the Sun appears to rise." On maps the convention is that the right edge is the east, but that's just a convention, not a hard requirement. Minecraft maps don't follow the convention.
I haven't seen clowns in Minecraft. I suppose another player in SMP could wear a clown skin, but such a person could move in any direction.
Power Rail: Cart Momentum recalc. let's consider the values V and M. M is the momentum assigned to the cart when at top speed and still accelerating. And V the speed. When The cart reaches 8m/s M changes so that the cart won't start deaccelerating immediately, and the powered tracks makes V=0 and M=0 before taking old V as V and adding 8m/s to it's now 0 momentum.
Rail: no cart momentum recalc. Meaning that carts will lose momentum when first hitting a track and then regaining it after leaving.
You explained your answer in the first part of the video. You said that the minecart achieves max momentum until it hits the powered rail that actually slows the cart. The carts that are traveling the farthest have more powered rails on straight away (not the slope). This is giving the carts more momentum.
3 powered tracks gives the overpowered boost, adding that at the last part of your rail will boost the cart the furthest, it has nothing todo with the slope
@TheLeprechaun04 Anyone can test this on SMP... just download the world and set it up on an SMP server. Or use MCEdit to export just the tests your interested in as .schematic files, and then use WorldEdit to import them.
Do you also know what the most efficient spacing for empty minecarts is ? Minecarts with chests in them are considered empty, but it's still handy to have them travel fast !
@TaviRider Yeah, I actually set up the experiment and saw how terrible it was. So I went for the worse case: as slow as you can without stopping. That's one powered rails for eight normal rails. Gosh, I hope the bug with powered minecarts get fixed soon (they don't push anything east-west anymore). In the mean time, I am mining for gold.
@Gyxav After a lot of discussion on Reddit, we figured out that this is the right way to sum it up: 28 to keep a cart at max speed. 37 keeps a cart so close to max speed that it takes less than one second longer to go 2km, so it's a good speed/gold ratio.
just a suggestion, maybe say unpowered rail, powered rail, and normal rail, as to keep clear the difference between powered rails that dont have power being sent to them and normal rails
@FifatlasHD I've thought about that point quite a bit. The problem is that many people call normal rail "unpowered rail". Even if I consistently use the terminology you propose consistently, I think some people are still going to be confused.
wow. even someone with such knowledge of minecraft's minecarts (thats a bit of a mouthful) doesn't even know why they do this? well i hope you (or someone else) figures it out and gets back to us.
im really glad you went into such depth with this. i noticed that in some of your other videos there was some inaccuracies with some of the tests and i was a little annoyed at that but here theres not reeally anything that can stuff it up (as far as i can tell anyway).
@zachj61 I'm sure there's inaccuracies in every one of my videos! By posting unedited experiments, I hope I can at least get some of the facts right, and people can just ignore what I'm saying if necessary. :)
would not allow the cart to drop below maximum speed as well, it would increase the speed too late, causing it to stop earlier. So you see placing it too early would activate the boost too soon and placing it too late would create a period of time where the cart would fall below maximum speed.
I'm pretty sure the reason the cart went the furthest is the fact that that cart was at maximum speed for the longest time. Let me elaborate, as each cart reaches maximum speed powered rail has no effect right? So let's say that after reaching maximum speed the carts will stay at that speed for 30 meters. What I'm proposing is that the winning arrangement boosted the cart at 28 or 29, never allowing it to drop from maximum speed. Of course an arrangement with powered rail at 19 would not allow
@MrSteakable "As each cart reaches maximum speed powered rail has no effect right?" I don't think that's the case. Otherwise 5 powered rail in a row would push a cart as far as 8 powered rail in a row, but that's not what we see in other experiments.
@TaviRider For the up-slope and down-slope powered rail, almost every cart makes it up but only one will keep it max speed for the longest distance on the level section. The others will already be at a loss when they reach the level area.
@cookiebubbaOmNoMnOm But that's part of the test. The question I'm trying to answer is "What's the best arrangement of 8 powered rail near a slope". To keep things reasonable I restrict it to a range of just 8 blocks before and after the slope.
[Part 2] ... of momentum, then with powered rails at the top the minecart has attained maximum momentum and is losing the most due to friction. The minecart which is traveling with less momentum is losing less due to friction. It all boils down to the same reason you wouldn't have all your powered rail clumped together before a long stretch, but instead intersperse it with unpowered rail.
@thescaryworker So you want to keep speed/momentum as low as possible, until the very end, at which point you want momentum to be as high as possible to get maximum distance. That would imply that the arrangement where powered rail is all on the level section after the downward slope would be best... but to my surprise it isn't!
Try this version: Take the track with alternating powered rail (but none on the slope) and move each powered rail forward one. This arrangement is the best so far!
@TaviRider Not necessarily the very end. I was positing an explanation for why that one did better. Your new result is definitely interesting. If we had the equations on minecart physics (doubt mojang would release those), we could definitively show why one does better than the other and even generate optimum solutions. Depending on the rate of decay and the "maximum momentum", the result will change. I expect the best configuration will be some close derivative of what you just found.
@thescaryworker Full disclosure: I didn't find that one. It was PMed to me by ArghaGrenade.
Most mods are possible because people have reverse-engineered Mojang's code. Mojang also plans to release the source code to mod makers, so the info will someday be out there.
But I think that generating optimum solutions will always require experimentation. That's because this is a tick-based game. Things occur with a relatively unpredictable heartbeat, and that's hard to model perfectly with formulas.
@TaviRider I see. I didn't realize you could get different results when running the same experiment - particularly with a computer (the mathematician in me is still trying to rationalize this). I suppose you could come up with an approximation mathematically, but you're right, the final results would definitely require in-game experimentation.
@thescaryworker I know how you feel. It's not so much that it's non-deterministic (although it probably is, if you get precise enough), it's more that results are chaotic. Small changes in initial conditions can have a large effect on the results. For instance, with redstone I know that its position in the world can have a significant effect... not just orientation, which is a common problem in Minecraft, but position alone.
[Part 1] Tavrider, you asked the question of why the arrangement for the downslope powered rail of why the top one went the farthest. As you said, momentum decreases exponentially. This means that in order to have an optimum arrangement, you need to keep the momentum as close as possible to the maximum velocity level. The more momentum above this level, the greater amount that is lost to minecraft pseudofriction. If we assume that each powered rail contributes a linear amount... (see next post)
@piratecheese13 I think I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. If that were true, consecutive powered rail would give increasing returns, rather than decreasing returns.
For instance, if you have 5 powered rail in a row a cart goes X meters. If you add another powered rail, it goes X+Y meters. If you add another powered rail, it goes X+Y+Z meters. However, Z is less than Y.
@piratecheese13 In which direction? There's code specifically for making stopped carts start moving. You can tell because powered rail next to a block moves the cart away from the block.
@TaviRider having a block next to the track is indeed a + but a mine cart sitting still on a underpowered rail that then recieves power will stay still until nudged. in conclusion the new equasion is y=xz+a
It is simple and there are hundreds of videos to help you set up an smp testing server and I'm sure tons of your subscribers (like me) would love to help you set it up and test!
Awesome video TaviRider and i was wondering if you could send me a video of how to make a minecraft server for just me and a friend if you do so thanks very much
For the upslope test, your upper rail had 8 consecutive powered rail at the top of the slope. Lets denote like this: = is powered \ is slope - is unpowered. Your setup looks like this
========\\\\\\\\--------
If you change it to this:
=======-\\\\\\\\=-------
I'm willing to bet that it wins the upslope challenge. The single powered rail before the slope should get the cart to the top, and the 7 powered rail will catapult nicely
Looks like your test of powered rail is only in 1 direction. Given the anomaly with EW vs NS rail cart interactions there may be similar differences in powered track given EW or NS orientations.
@Tarandon That's an excellent question. I'll be honest, I'm kinda burned out on running those tests. It was over three hours of testing just to get the results heading in the direction shown... maybe someone else can try the other direction? Any volunteers?
Beat upslope challenge by 7 meters or so. Place 1 powered rail as far up the slope as possible so that the cart doesn't slide back down. Place the remaining 7 against the white starting line.
Reasoning: To maximize momentum at the starting line, we want to bunch as many prails as possible at the start line. Thus we want to use as little as possible to reach the start line.
@Xinhuan02 teapoted and one other person had the same idea, but you're the first to dial in exactly where the powered rail on the slope should be, and to provide a screenshot. I have a feeling you're going to win the upslope challenge.
Woot I beat a the record on the downwards slope! I'll Message you the pictures but the arrangement was 4-0-4 like your bottom rail but the powered rails were spaced differently. I think that 8 on the lower section is still better but spacing has just as big an impact on speed as the overall arrangement does.
Can't beat either record yet, but pegging down any sort of rules is extremely difficult.
Take the final experiemtn for example. if you rearrange the spaces at the top of the hill on the bottom test, the distance changes. To explain. currently the powered rail tracks are at spots 1,3,5 and 7. If you change them to 2,4,6,8 (ie shift them up a space), the distance travelled reduces significantly.
@ArghaGrenade The only rules I have for the challenge is to place 8 powered rail and 16 unpowered rail between the black wool and the white wool, and then test it using the procedure listed on the purple wall near the starting point.
@tavirider please become a partner on youtube. this will make your channel better for you and us. this web page explains it all; w w w dot youtube dot com /partners
@theJnJproductions I try to build things that will work in single player and SMP. For instance, all of my double door designs work fine in SMP. Most of my "Highly Secure Entry System" will work on SMP, though I'm not sure how well the dispensers will work...
Inspiring stuff. After watching the video I couldnt help but download and have a play.
The first thing I had to try was spaces vs non-spaces. So take the first troubled experiement (slope downwards). The top, 2nd and 5th rows didnt make much sense to me so I reran the bottom row but without the spaces between the powered rails. The distance achieved is somewhere between the first and second which makes a bit more sense.
Still playing with the final track but it's very strange.
@TaviRider You were suprised that the unpowered unpowered powered rail reached the longest distance. It's very simple: All the other tracks lose momentum at the last part after they hit max velocity. The unpowered unpowered powered is the last that starts losing momentum so he will be able to travel a longer distance.
@VelocityMW2 I agree. Originally I was trying to avoid having a high momentum at any point in the testing area because exponential decay of minecart speed/momentum punishes higher momentum more than lower. What I didn't understand until after posting this video is that the only thing that matters is maximizing momentum at the point the cart leaves the test area, so having the highest momentum there gets the best result.
So I think the rule is keep momentum low until the cart exits.
@VanellieIce I just checked. On level ground a roof immediately above the cart makes no difference. You do have to be careful on slopes, though. It's easy to make a roof that's so low that the cart can't pass under it.
My explanation for the slope part: The minecart on the track where there are the most powered rails on the level it is heading to (lower level on the first test, higher level on the second test) goes the farthest.
Check your reddit post for better explanation, can't paste everything here.
@UH1Phil In the end using wolves only would have told me which carts arrive first. It wouldn't have given the exact timing data that I used to make the chart. Really I just wanted to use the sheep to demonstrate some concepts.
I was just about to ask how to deal with the snowfalls in your "World of redstone", but now I noticed the glass celling in this world. So how did you make it? Maybe you can upload a new version of the "World of redstone" with this celling?
@Maxisokol I used MCEdit to put a glass ceiling over the whole world. This was Tyken's idea. I plan on doing the same thing in the next World of Redstone.
@Bullsh0t1 This doesn't explain the results though, there is a maximum speed but this is testing for momentum not speed. You will gain momentum when at maximum speed, at 5:55 the track that goes the furthest is because that is the cart which leaves the white mark with the most momentum. It has the most momentum because there are the most powered rail concentrated right before the white mark and it enters this point at maximum speed.
What are the properties of minecarts when they drop; do they lose all momentum or do they keep it? What about if you dropped a minecart onto a powered rail or a regular rail, would it any more efficient then just a flat rail?
@ihatecoeguy That's the easy part (although rotating a 2km long selection in MCEdit takes a while). The boring part is sitting in the cart. Each run takes 4-6 minutes, and if you don't pay attention at the end you miss the time when you should've stopped the stopwatch and you have to repeat the test.
@TaviRider Even though it takes 4-6 min per test (after rotating it E-W in MCEdit), if you keep F3 open, you can see when your Z coordinate nears 2000 and alt-tab back in (well I use dual screens). I typed my forum post while testing the runs at the same time.
Also, you probably don't have to test ALL the tracks, just testing 37 and 38 after rotation, and if the results match, it should be enough to just test one more track randomly, like 47 to check the results match.
The South/West rule is there to maintain uniformity in block appearance, so all blocks of the same type are oriented the same way. Why it effects various things in Minecraft the way it does was an unintended side effect of that, but it can't be done away with completely, or else blocks will look haphazard. Whether the various nuances of it can be fixed either continues to elude Mojang or has, thus far, been overlooked.
@cory1337 In a few cases the southwest rule is just a default, like with track intersections. But in the cases where it causes bugs I think it's because getting signed floating point math correct can be difficult. The bug where there's more ores to the southwest of the origin was because of a rounding bug related to signed floating point math. (This was fixed in one of the 1.6 versions).
@Thefatconductor I don't usually use glitchy behaviors because an update can come along at any time and break them. I don't want to mislead my viewers.
@Thefatconductor Then perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by push booster. There's the glitch where you can use a regular carts to give an occupied cart a lot of momentum. But there's also things like powered minecarts (which I think are still glitchy and weak).
@TaviRider the push booster is the thing I invented. Hence i thought you would be using it as it is most heavily affected by the bouncing carts bug which you talked about at the beginning of your video.
what you should also make though, is the track switch launcher which rides an occupied cart around in a circle hitting 4 total powered rails, then track switch puts it on the track you want to travel on. i want to see some experiments with that launcher
@ecnetsixe There isn't a lot of experimenting to be done with that launcher. I designed one using 2 powered rail which works just fine, they all do what you'd expect, spin and release.
i made a spiral which turns (unpowered) after every powered upslope. it was cool because it ran at top speed all the way up. but i also found i was able to make one with a turn, one powered, 2 unpowered, then a turn, and the next powered, also worked at minimum momentum/speed to get me to the top of the mountain.
@teapoted So a high peak momentum is best, as long as it occurs right at the end of the test area. Before then you want to keep momentum as low as possible, to minimize decay.
not to sound rude, but could you clear your throat? lol
unholyraviel1 1 week ago
The powered rails will raise the speed of minecart up to some limit, so it's better if the powered rails are scattered so that the minecart will have some boost all the time.
misterZalli 2 weeks ago
At ~6:52 you make a slight mistake by saying "the difference between the slowest and the fastest". Instead of compairing distance you compared speed which is not the same. But it could as well be the fastest. :)
Great vid
michielvdbos 1 month ago
@TaviRide I have no idea how you have the payience to create this but i salute you for doing it :)
KillerBeeLFC 1 month ago
@KillerBeeLFC I have some patience, but MCEdit did most of the work.
TaviRider 1 month ago 5
what do you do for a living? you sound very intelligent and educated. Are you a science or engineering major in college? or are you an actual engineer or researcher? just wondering.
Foodoff527 1 month ago
@Foodoff527 I had some computer science education at Cornell University, and now I'm a programmer for a living.
TaviRider 1 month ago 4
@TaviRider hah thats kinda funny i just finished my cornell app yesterday! goin for bio at CALS (pre med track most likely), but engineering was another path i was considering. what years did you go to cornell? and who do you program for and how do you like doing that for a living?
Foodoff527 1 month ago
@Foodoff527 Good luck with your application! I was amazed when I got in. College was EXPENSIVE though... couldn't afford to finish my bachelors. I was there...a very long time ago. :) Had I graduated I would've been class of '94. Now I'm working for a company called MobileIron and really enjoying it.
TaviRider 1 month ago
What I think is happening on the downward slope test is that the booster tracks "multiply" speed/ momentum instead of adding it, when the top one reaches the bottom it has a greater speed/momentum than the other carts; bigger initial speed value*8x booster multiplier -> more momentum/speed than the other carts :D.
uut0 2 months ago
How do you only have 17k views, whilst Seananners has millions?
adz556 3 months ago 2
@adz556 My overall channel has nearly 1 million views, compared to Seananners' 108 million views. He's been doing this at least twice as long as I have, he covers multiple games while I only do Minecraft, and he was one of the very first people to do a Minecraft video that became popular. Being the first makes a HUGE difference, because most popular videos after that one end up linking back to the first.
TaviRider 3 months ago 4
@adz556 everyone who plays minecraft is interested in minecraft, not everyone who plays minecraft is interested in redstone
Bojl95 1 month ago
my friend said gold under the rails makes them 8x faster, is it a plugin or does it rly work?
cedric199870 3 months ago
@cedric199870 He may be confused about powered rail, which is made with gold that looks like it's under the rail. Otherwise, it must be a mod.
TaviRider 3 months ago
The friction being exponential means that you're generally going to get the furthest boost if you've got more powered rail toward the end of the boost area. In the case of the down slope you let the carts accumulate the most energy they can from the slope and then the block of powered rails prevents any of that energy from being lost as friction until the end position.
Shokuju 3 months ago
in minecraft sun is rising from north and set on south. and clown always go south. that's what I hear. I don't is that truth.
MrUrbackup 4 months ago
@MrUrbackup The definition of "east" is "the direction toward which the Earth rotates about its axis, and therefore the general direction from which the Sun appears to rise." On maps the convention is that the right edge is the east, but that's just a convention, not a hard requirement. Minecraft maps don't follow the convention.
I haven't seen clowns in Minecraft. I suppose another player in SMP could wear a clown skin, but such a person could move in any direction.
TaviRider 4 months ago
@TaviRider sorry, I mean cloud. you know, my english is suck : ( I'm so sorry.
MrUrbackup 4 months ago
@MrUrbackup No need to apologize. You're right that clouds move from north to south.
TaviRider 4 months ago
@MrUrbackup No need to apologize. You're right that clouds move from north to south. Clowns move in whatever direction they like.
TaviRider 4 months ago 6
But still these questions must be answered!
LIAMDABESTABLE 5 months ago
Its just a GAME!
LIAMDABESTABLE 5 months ago
Power Rail: Cart Momentum recalc. let's consider the values V and M. M is the momentum assigned to the cart when at top speed and still accelerating. And V the speed. When The cart reaches 8m/s M changes so that the cart won't start deaccelerating immediately, and the powered tracks makes V=0 and M=0 before taking old V as V and adding 8m/s to it's now 0 momentum.
Rail: no cart momentum recalc. Meaning that carts will lose momentum when first hitting a track and then regaining it after leaving.
livedandletdie 5 months ago
BALLS TO IT make everything out of powered rail!!
manioo80 5 months ago 2
LET'S DO SCIENCE TO IT
anchuxGames 5 months ago
Its on a straight plane so it went further than the others with less boosts
yoericbomb 5 months ago
its not the biggest experiment on minecraft someone made a working minecraft calculator
ghgfhsh2 6 months ago
@ghgfhsh2 It's certainly not the largest thing anyone's built. I just think it's an exceptionally large science experiment.
TaviRider 6 months ago 10
@ghgfhsh2
a calculator is easy to build
i think tavi´s experiment is bigger
LegendaryZable 3 months ago
Comment removed
ghgfhsh2 6 months ago
I hate how complicated minecarts, rails and redstone are it makes no sense to me D:
JamesonLB 6 months ago
Thanks for making these videos, you are a true man of science! :D
SphereCat1 6 months ago
You explained your answer in the first part of the video. You said that the minecart achieves max momentum until it hits the powered rail that actually slows the cart. The carts that are traveling the farthest have more powered rails on straight away (not the slope). This is giving the carts more momentum.
lazyorc 7 months ago
the slope gets it to top speed and then the power adds momentum
Shadekiller666 7 months ago
My slope answer:
3 powered tracks gives the overpowered boost, adding that at the last part of your rail will boost the cart the furthest, it has nothing todo with the slope
Silentsouls 7 months ago
intresting
idbestndworld 7 months ago
could you have this on a SMP and have people help you test these?
TheLeprechaun04 7 months ago
@TheLeprechaun04 Anyone can test this on SMP... just download the world and set it up on an SMP server. Or use MCEdit to export just the tests your interested in as .schematic files, and then use WorldEdit to import them.
TaviRider 7 months ago
LOL YOUR TESTS LOOK LIKE GUITARS!!!
LegoMovieMan44 7 months ago
They changed the speed of powered rail.
LegoMovieMan44 7 months ago
@LegoMovieMan44 This video was made after that change. Every time that I've run the tests since this video the results have been the same.
TaviRider 7 months ago
That's extremely strange at 6:00, seeing as powered rail is supposed to power less the more momentum the cart has.
RicorianGuardian 7 months ago
Do you also know what the most efficient spacing for empty minecarts is ? Minecarts with chests in them are considered empty, but it's still handy to have them travel fast !
Niriel 7 months ago
@Niriel You can see that test in an earlier video of mine: youtube.com/watch?v=F7CyaCeS3fY
In short, one powered rail followed by just two unpowered rail. :(
TaviRider 7 months ago
@TaviRider Yeah, I actually set up the experiment and saw how terrible it was. So I went for the worse case: as slow as you can without stopping. That's one powered rails for eight normal rails. Gosh, I hope the bug with powered minecarts get fixed soon (they don't push anything east-west anymore). In the mean time, I am mining for gold.
Niriel 7 months ago
you my freind are very very diligiant
GeneralGreious 7 months ago
great channel :D
FoundationsofPause 7 months ago
So 37 unpowered rails between powered rails is the best speed/gold ratio or the way to get max speed without extra momentum?
Gyxav 8 months ago
@Gyxav After a lot of discussion on Reddit, we figured out that this is the right way to sum it up: 28 to keep a cart at max speed. 37 keeps a cart so close to max speed that it takes less than one second longer to go 2km, so it's a good speed/gold ratio.
TaviRider 8 months ago
just a suggestion, maybe say unpowered rail, powered rail, and normal rail, as to keep clear the difference between powered rails that dont have power being sent to them and normal rails
FifatlasHD 8 months ago
@FifatlasHD I've thought about that point quite a bit. The problem is that many people call normal rail "unpowered rail". Even if I consistently use the terminology you propose consistently, I think some people are still going to be confused.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider good point,i guess you have to go with the lesser of two confusions
FifatlasHD 8 months ago
Is your name Wyatt Smith?
greenblob51 8 months ago
@greenblob51 Nope, guess again!
TaviRider 8 months ago
wow. even someone with such knowledge of minecraft's minecarts (thats a bit of a mouthful) doesn't even know why they do this? well i hope you (or someone else) figures it out and gets back to us.
im really glad you went into such depth with this. i noticed that in some of your other videos there was some inaccuracies with some of the tests and i was a little annoyed at that but here theres not reeally anything that can stuff it up (as far as i can tell anyway).
keep up the great work!!
zachj61 8 months ago
@zachj61 I'm sure there's inaccuracies in every one of my videos! By posting unedited experiments, I hope I can at least get some of the facts right, and people can just ignore what I'm saying if necessary. :)
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider i think your facts in this video are accurate enough. people shouldnt ignore what your saying. they should build on it
zachj61 8 months ago
would not allow the cart to drop below maximum speed as well, it would increase the speed too late, causing it to stop earlier. So you see placing it too early would activate the boost too soon and placing it too late would create a period of time where the cart would fall below maximum speed.
MrSteakable 8 months ago
I'm pretty sure the reason the cart went the furthest is the fact that that cart was at maximum speed for the longest time. Let me elaborate, as each cart reaches maximum speed powered rail has no effect right? So let's say that after reaching maximum speed the carts will stay at that speed for 30 meters. What I'm proposing is that the winning arrangement boosted the cart at 28 or 29, never allowing it to drop from maximum speed. Of course an arrangement with powered rail at 19 would not allow
MrSteakable 8 months ago
@MrSteakable "As each cart reaches maximum speed powered rail has no effect right?" I don't think that's the case. Otherwise 5 powered rail in a row would push a cart as far as 8 powered rail in a row, but that's not what we see in other experiments.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider For the up-slope and down-slope powered rail, almost every cart makes it up but only one will keep it max speed for the longest distance on the level section. The others will already be at a loss when they reach the level area.
MasterHand243 8 months ago
What fly mod do you use?
mmavipc 8 months ago
@mmavipc It's one of the commands in Single Player Commands.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider Thanks
mmavipc 8 months ago
get rid of whats after the slopes its an invalid test because you changing the speed when it comes of the slope
cookiebubbaOmNoMnOm 8 months ago
@cookiebubbaOmNoMnOm But that's part of the test. The question I'm trying to answer is "What's the best arrangement of 8 powered rail near a slope". To keep things reasonable I restrict it to a range of just 8 blocks before and after the slope.
TaviRider 8 months ago
... but anyway, great work. Your videos are very interesting. I enjoy watching your analysis of the physics of the minecraftverse.
thescaryworker 8 months ago
[Part 2] ... of momentum, then with powered rails at the top the minecart has attained maximum momentum and is losing the most due to friction. The minecart which is traveling with less momentum is losing less due to friction. It all boils down to the same reason you wouldn't have all your powered rail clumped together before a long stretch, but instead intersperse it with unpowered rail.
thescaryworker 8 months ago
@thescaryworker So you want to keep speed/momentum as low as possible, until the very end, at which point you want momentum to be as high as possible to get maximum distance. That would imply that the arrangement where powered rail is all on the level section after the downward slope would be best... but to my surprise it isn't!
Try this version: Take the track with alternating powered rail (but none on the slope) and move each powered rail forward one. This arrangement is the best so far!
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider Not necessarily the very end. I was positing an explanation for why that one did better. Your new result is definitely interesting. If we had the equations on minecart physics (doubt mojang would release those), we could definitively show why one does better than the other and even generate optimum solutions. Depending on the rate of decay and the "maximum momentum", the result will change. I expect the best configuration will be some close derivative of what you just found.
thescaryworker 8 months ago
@thescaryworker Full disclosure: I didn't find that one. It was PMed to me by ArghaGrenade.
Most mods are possible because people have reverse-engineered Mojang's code. Mojang also plans to release the source code to mod makers, so the info will someday be out there.
But I think that generating optimum solutions will always require experimentation. That's because this is a tick-based game. Things occur with a relatively unpredictable heartbeat, and that's hard to model perfectly with formulas.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider I see. I didn't realize you could get different results when running the same experiment - particularly with a computer (the mathematician in me is still trying to rationalize this). I suppose you could come up with an approximation mathematically, but you're right, the final results would definitely require in-game experimentation.
thescaryworker 8 months ago
@thescaryworker I know how you feel. It's not so much that it's non-deterministic (although it probably is, if you get precise enough), it's more that results are chaotic. Small changes in initial conditions can have a large effect on the results. For instance, with redstone I know that its position in the world can have a significant effect... not just orientation, which is a common problem in Minecraft, but position alone.
TaviRider 8 months ago
[Part 1] Tavrider, you asked the question of why the arrangement for the downslope powered rail of why the top one went the farthest. As you said, momentum decreases exponentially. This means that in order to have an optimum arrangement, you need to keep the momentum as close as possible to the maximum velocity level. The more momentum above this level, the greater amount that is lost to minecraft pseudofriction. If we assume that each powered rail contributes a linear amount... (see next post)
thescaryworker 8 months ago
@funnyshitguy I used MCEdit extensively along with TooManyItems and Single Player Commands.
TaviRider 8 months ago
Tavirider, do you place all of these tracks and torches or do you use 3rd party programs such as MCEdit?
funnyshitguy 8 months ago
You can change output=html to output=xls to download the spreadsheet.
x3ICEx 8 months ago
@x3ICEx Nice, thanks. I'll add that info to the forum post.
TaviRider 8 months ago
As always, fantastic MC science. Downloading the world now, will see what we come up with.
mithrandir1420 8 months ago
mojang should hire you to do bug testing and what not. huggles
omichron420 8 months ago
@omichron420 I'd love to be on Mojang's beta tester list!
... Huggles?
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider yeah, huggles. i give huggles
omichron420 8 months ago
After it goes over the lip of the slope, what comes aster is what matters.
IRACourageWolf 8 months ago
@Tavirider u hav out done urself there are a lot of ppl who could learn from you i love your vids
XxBalethornxX 8 months ago
powered rails only increase existing speed.
piratecheese13 8 months ago
@piratecheese13 I'm not sure what you mean by that...
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider y=end speed+momentum
x=speeed+momentum going into power rail
z=speed and momentum boost given by power rail
y=x*z
theoretically if you enter a rail with no momentum whatsoever(imposable) the cart wouldn't be boosted
if a cart is going fast and hits a booster then it will faster than a cart that is going slow and hits a booster.
with the downhill the rail that went the furthest was the cart that was going fastest and then hit the most rails
piratecheese13 8 months ago
@piratecheese13 I think I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. If that were true, consecutive powered rail would give increasing returns, rather than decreasing returns.
For instance, if you have 5 powered rail in a row a cart goes X meters. If you add another powered rail, it goes X+Y meters. If you add another powered rail, it goes X+Y+Z meters. However, Z is less than Y.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider it isn't +
if it were mine-carts in rest would move without being pushed
piratecheese13 8 months ago
@piratecheese13 In which direction? There's code specifically for making stopped carts start moving. You can tell because powered rail next to a block moves the cart away from the block.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider having a block next to the track is indeed a + but a mine cart sitting still on a underpowered rail that then recieves power will stay still until nudged. in conclusion the new equasion is y=xz+a
piratecheese13 8 months ago
It is simple and there are hundreds of videos to help you set up an smp testing server and I'm sure tons of your subscribers (like me) would love to help you set it up and test!
meh12345HEY 8 months ago
Have you ever thought about taking on some assistants via server (if you knew how to set one up of course)?
anonyslime 8 months ago
@anonyslime I joined the RDF not too long ago. It's a group of like-minded addicts. I test out the occasional SMP thing on the RDF server.
I hope that more people will start doing their own experiments and coming up with more scientific conclusions about Minecraft too.
The one thing I could use help with is getting a better avatar, and maybe decorating my channel page some...
TaviRider 8 months ago
Wow, I'm really impressed with your videos. Thank you for actually using some sensible methodology to determine the efficiency. Consider me subbed!
MainStringer 8 months ago
Awesome video TaviRider and i was wondering if you could send me a video of how to make a minecraft server for just me and a friend if you do so thanks very much
bauerliamhaidernolan 8 months ago
@bauerliamhaidernolan Sorry, I know basically nothing about setting up an SMP server. I've never done it.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider ok thanks and awesome vids
bauerliamhaidernolan 8 months ago
It's all about exit velocity for the slope tests.
For the upslope test, your upper rail had 8 consecutive powered rail at the top of the slope. Lets denote like this: = is powered \ is slope - is unpowered. Your setup looks like this
========\\\\\\\\--------
If you change it to this:
=======-\\\\\\\\=-------
I'm willing to bet that it wins the upslope challenge. The single powered rail before the slope should get the cart to the top, and the 7 powered rail will catapult nicely
Tarandon 8 months ago
@Tarandon You should look at the forum post. Xinhuan has posted something that I think is similar, and he set a high mark for the challenge.
TaviRider 8 months ago
Looks like your test of powered rail is only in 1 direction. Given the anomaly with EW vs NS rail cart interactions there may be similar differences in powered track given EW or NS orientations.
Tarandon 8 months ago
@Tarandon That's an excellent question. I'll be honest, I'm kinda burned out on running those tests. It was over three hours of testing just to get the results heading in the direction shown... maybe someone else can try the other direction? Any volunteers?
TaviRider 8 months ago
maybe its the speed the cart gets from riding down and then extra speed + momentum from powered rails
10BITable 8 months ago
Beat upslope challenge by 7 meters or so. Place 1 powered rail as far up the slope as possible so that the cart doesn't slide back down. Place the remaining 7 against the white starting line.
Reasoning: To maximize momentum at the starting line, we want to bunch as many prails as possible at the start line. Thus we want to use as little as possible to reach the start line.
(I replied your thread on the MC forums)
Xinhuan02 8 months ago
@Xinhuan02 teapoted and one other person had the same idea, but you're the first to dial in exactly where the powered rail on the slope should be, and to provide a screenshot. I have a feeling you're going to win the upslope challenge.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider It's a competition now? =P Give me until the end of the weekend, I will double the distance =P
teapoted 8 months ago
@teapoted Great! :D
TaviRider 8 months ago
Aperture Minecarts ...
FabrykaFiranek7 8 months ago
Woot I beat a the record on the downwards slope! I'll Message you the pictures but the arrangement was 4-0-4 like your bottom rail but the powered rails were spaced differently. I think that 8 on the lower section is still better but spacing has just as big an impact on speed as the overall arrangement does.
ArghaGrenade 8 months ago
Can't beat either record yet, but pegging down any sort of rules is extremely difficult.
Take the final experiemtn for example. if you rearrange the spaces at the top of the hill on the bottom test, the distance changes. To explain. currently the powered rail tracks are at spots 1,3,5 and 7. If you change them to 2,4,6,8 (ie shift them up a space), the distance travelled reduces significantly.
ArghaGrenade 8 months ago
@ArghaGrenade The only rules I have for the challenge is to place 8 powered rail and 16 unpowered rail between the black wool and the white wool, and then test it using the procedure listed on the purple wall near the starting point.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@tavirider please become a partner on youtube. this will make your channel better for you and us. this web page explains it all; w w w dot youtube dot com /partners
theJnJproductions 8 months ago
So for the best results for the first test is: 1 Powered Rail-37 Unpowered Rail-1 Powered Rail... so on and so forth.
MrSyn1989 8 months ago
@MrSyn1989 Exactly.
TaviRider 8 months ago
tavi rider can you show us how to build some cool and usefull things for smp? like the combo lock and A simple station? that would be awesome!
theJnJproductions 8 months ago
@theJnJproductions I try to build things that will work in single player and SMP. For instance, all of my double door designs work fine in SMP. Most of my "Highly Secure Entry System" will work on SMP, though I'm not sure how well the dispensers will work...
TaviRider 8 months ago
Thank you Stephen Baldwin!
TehCream 8 months ago
Inspiring stuff. After watching the video I couldnt help but download and have a play.
The first thing I had to try was spaces vs non-spaces. So take the first troubled experiement (slope downwards). The top, 2nd and 5th rows didnt make much sense to me so I reran the bottom row but without the spaces between the powered rails. The distance achieved is somewhere between the first and second which makes a bit more sense.
Still playing with the final track but it's very strange.
ArghaGrenade 8 months ago
@ArghaGrenade If you beat any of the longest distances, please send me a screenshot of your arrangement.
TaviRider 8 months ago
Dude! You and your science. Its always so awesome. Thanks!
lordrifus 8 months ago
thatsssssssssss a nice railroad you got there
ilisamiliRS 8 months ago
About the powered rail
I think that you are confusing which minecart is first at the white line and which minecart goes the fastest at the white line.
VelocityMW2 8 months ago
@VelocityMW2 I may have misspoken... To which test are you referring?
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider The one with the powered rail on a slope before a slope or after a slope. The one that suprised you
VelocityMW2 8 months ago
@VelocityMW2 I'm not sure to what you're referring.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider You were suprised that the unpowered unpowered powered rail reached the longest distance. It's very simple: All the other tracks lose momentum at the last part after they hit max velocity. The unpowered unpowered powered is the last that starts losing momentum so he will be able to travel a longer distance.
VelocityMW2 8 months ago
@VelocityMW2 I agree. Originally I was trying to avoid having a high momentum at any point in the testing area because exponential decay of minecart speed/momentum punishes higher momentum more than lower. What I didn't understand until after posting this video is that the only thing that matters is maximizing momentum at the point the cart leaves the test area, so having the highest momentum there gets the best result.
So I think the rule is keep momentum low until the cart exits.
TaviRider 8 months ago
can you test if the minecart goes faster, or slower if it is under a 1 high roof? thumbs up so he can see. I really want to know!
VanellieIce 8 months ago
@VanellieIce I SEE ALL. O-O
TaviRider 8 months ago
@VanellieIce I just checked. On level ground a roof immediately above the cart makes no difference. You do have to be careful on slopes, though. It's easy to make a roof that's so low that the cart can't pass under it.
TaviRider 8 months ago
My explanation for the slope part: The minecart on the track where there are the most powered rails on the level it is heading to (lower level on the first test, higher level on the second test) goes the farthest.
Check your reddit post for better explanation, can't paste everything here.
WitchHunterNL 8 months ago
Hi TaviRider!
You could have, instead of sheep, used tamed wolves to ride them. Make sure to right-click them in the carts so they sit in them.
Or squids. They dont despawn as easy as other "wild" mobs.
Thanks for making practical experiments! Although they doesn't help for my small railways, they sure tell a lot about the physics.
UH1Phil 8 months ago
@UH1Phil In the end using wolves only would have told me which carts arrive first. It wouldn't have given the exact timing data that I used to make the chart. Really I just wanted to use the sheep to demonstrate some concepts.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider do you upload a minecart station in 1.6.6 ?
please =)
Warrock1221 8 months ago
@Warrock1221 Stay tuned, it's my next project!
TaviRider 8 months ago
I was just about to ask how to deal with the snowfalls in your "World of redstone", but now I noticed the glass celling in this world. So how did you make it? Maybe you can upload a new version of the "World of redstone" with this celling?
P.S. Thanks for the great videos! =)
Maxisokol 8 months ago
@Maxisokol I used MCEdit to put a glass ceiling over the whole world. This was Tyken's idea. I plan on doing the same thing in the next World of Redstone.
TaviRider 8 months ago
Are you a Wizard?
UnknownPIGS 8 months ago
@UnknownPIGS I don't have a wand.
TaviRider 8 months ago
5:55 if you let it go down on a slope, it will get speed, but if the speed is already maximum that can't happen. So that's why ;)
Bullsh0t1 8 months ago
@Bullsh0t1 This doesn't explain the results though, there is a maximum speed but this is testing for momentum not speed. You will gain momentum when at maximum speed, at 5:55 the track that goes the furthest is because that is the cart which leaves the white mark with the most momentum. It has the most momentum because there are the most powered rail concentrated right before the white mark and it enters this point at maximum speed.
teapoted 8 months ago 4
What are the properties of minecarts when they drop; do they lose all momentum or do they keep it? What about if you dropped a minecart onto a powered rail or a regular rail, would it any more efficient then just a flat rail?
RookieZeratul 8 months ago
have you tested both north south vs east west on normal tests not having them hit each other to see if there is any notable differences?
ihatecoeguy 8 months ago
@ihatecoeguy Not yet. Any volunteers?
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider just use mc edit and copy the map and place rotated right next to it and set a warp
ihatecoeguy 8 months ago
@ihatecoeguy That's the easy part (although rotating a 2km long selection in MCEdit takes a while). The boring part is sitting in the cart. Each run takes 4-6 minutes, and if you don't pay attention at the end you miss the time when you should've stopped the stopwatch and you have to repeat the test.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider Even though it takes 4-6 min per test (after rotating it E-W in MCEdit), if you keep F3 open, you can see when your Z coordinate nears 2000 and alt-tab back in (well I use dual screens). I typed my forum post while testing the runs at the same time.
Also, you probably don't have to test ALL the tracks, just testing 37 and 38 after rotation, and if the results match, it should be enough to just test one more track randomly, like 47 to check the results match.
Xinhuan02 8 months ago
Notch should use this world for testing. Also there has got to be a way to get rid of the NESW rule all together why is it even there?
cory1337 8 months ago
@cory1337
The South/West rule is there to maintain uniformity in block appearance, so all blocks of the same type are oriented the same way. Why it effects various things in Minecraft the way it does was an unintended side effect of that, but it can't be done away with completely, or else blocks will look haphazard. Whether the various nuances of it can be fixed either continues to elude Mojang or has, thus far, been overlooked.
IdiotsAmongUs 8 months ago
@cory1337 In a few cases the southwest rule is just a default, like with track intersections. But in the cases where it causes bugs I think it's because getting signed floating point math correct can be difficult. The bug where there's more ores to the southwest of the origin was because of a rounding bug related to signed floating point math. (This was fixed in one of the 1.6 versions).
TaviRider 8 months ago
Please tell me you are using a push booster. That would make my day.
Thefatconductor 8 months ago
@Thefatconductor I don't usually use glitchy behaviors because an update can come along at any time and break them. I don't want to mislead my viewers.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider Hmm, i wouldn't call it a glitch. Bouncing minecarts (the basis behind the mechanic) has always been characteristic of minecarts.
Thefatconductor 8 months ago
@Thefatconductor Then perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by push booster. There's the glitch where you can use a regular carts to give an occupied cart a lot of momentum. But there's also things like powered minecarts (which I think are still glitchy and weak).
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider the push booster is the thing I invented. Hence i thought you would be using it as it is most heavily affected by the bouncing carts bug which you talked about at the beginning of your video.
Thefatconductor 8 months ago
@Thefatconductor Where can I see this invention?
TaviRider 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TaviRider im surprised you haven't seen it. It was the inspiration for Necramar's booster so visit my channel.
Thefatconductor 8 months ago
i want to know what teapoted had to say :/
w00dYd3luXe 8 months ago
the unpowerd cart got longest becuse that it had much more speed when hitting the powerd rail!
soundmagnefier 8 months ago
what you should also make though, is the track switch launcher which rides an occupied cart around in a circle hitting 4 total powered rails, then track switch puts it on the track you want to travel on. i want to see some experiments with that launcher
ecnetsixe 8 months ago
@ecnetsixe There isn't a lot of experimenting to be done with that launcher. I designed one using 2 powered rail which works just fine, they all do what you'd expect, spin and release.
teapoted 8 months ago
i made a spiral which turns (unpowered) after every powered upslope. it was cool because it ran at top speed all the way up. but i also found i was able to make one with a turn, one powered, 2 unpowered, then a turn, and the next powered, also worked at minimum momentum/speed to get me to the top of the mountain.
ecnetsixe 8 months ago
@teapoted So a high peak momentum is best, as long as it occurs right at the end of the test area. Before then you want to keep momentum as low as possible, to minimize decay.
TaviRider 8 months ago
@TaviRider Sorry deleted my comment, sent a PM as there was too much to write.
teapoted 8 months ago
Hey why didnt you call us kids?
warpig443 8 months ago
@warpig443 At the end?
warpig443 8 months ago
@warpig443 I did!
TaviRider 8 months ago
Great vid, great expiriments! Be sure to let someone in the Mojang crew know about these!
TWolfKaden 8 months ago