This is not about the issue of gay "rights" nor is it about the "rights" of Christians. This is about being able to have a discussion about one's beliefs in the public square. When a small group of people (7,700) are able to have their wishes honored over a larger group (45,821), it is called intolerance. Democracy cannot survive if there is no civil discourse or free exchange of ideas. No one on the Christian side has called for the removal of apps that are offensive to them.
Dear all, if a million extreme muslims signed a petion that said that is was allright to to stone people for insulting Allah, would that make it allright to have an app that showed you how to do it? Is it ok to say anything, just because your belife in one or another god tell you it is right? Is it ok to do anything just because your beliefe in one or another god says it is right? I do not think so and therefore, yes it would be right to revoke all bible apps from appstore.
@ursuspolarisx your point A doesn't match to point B. Christians are't forcing you to buy the application. The application was set in place by choice. If you don't like a certain app. then don't buy it. No one is making you.
Excellent video! I’m a minister who has grown to appreciate Apple products since getting my first MacBook Pro four years ago. However, I’ve distanced myself from the company by removing all photos of me with my laptop from my web pages. I'm also considering closing my MobileMe account (which is up for renewal later this month) unless Apple reconsiders their stance on this matter.
If folks find the Manhattan Declaration app offensive, there's a very simple solution: don't download it! But don't tell me I can't download it if I want it.
Strange that Focus supports restricting content in the walled garden of pay-per-view hotel movies but then does a 180 argues against it in the Apple app store.
You guys also have a term for that "viewpoint discrimination" lol
@mykelb - Actually, the most widespread censorship in the past century was enacted by private industry, regarding their own products. Although a result of social pressure brought to bear by the Roman Catholic church, The Motion Picture Production Code was enforced by an in-house employee of what has become the Motion Picture Association of America (then called the Motion Pictures Producers and Distributors Association).
Private businesses may decide some things are "bad for business," & we are.
@wilibilljones From your implication that you speak on behalf of the Board of Directors of Apple Inc. ("..we are"), are you reporting here that they value profitability above consideration for U.S. democracy? You're saying your board of directors asserts that un-American choice of Apple's is good "for business?" In other words, you mean that Apple's board feels that what's good for Apple doesn't need to be good for America? Maybe Steve can weigh in on your interesting report. And maybe the FBI.
Marriage is the most fundamental institution of civilization and it should not be redefined by activist judges.Requiring citizens to sanction same-sex relationships violates moral and religious beliefs of millions of Christians, Jews, Muslims and others, who believe marriage is the union of one man and one woman.The phrase “separation of church and state” is not in the constitution. The California Supreme Court upheld Proposition 8’s ban on same-sex marriage in 2009.
Apple is wrong...and Stoplight has a lot of good points here. I appreciate CitizenLink for showing that Apple isn't some benevolent good guy but is rather a biased and anti-conservative Christian company that it appears Christians need not use.
Very good video. Sad comments by many, who are blind to the fact that Apple's pulling this app is sheer censorship. Do any of you believe in freedom of speech if it does not apply to yourselves?
@gytterdun I would have to disagree with your characterization of Apple's choice as censorship. By definition, censorship has to be carried out by a government. Apple is engaging in commercially-contributed repression of free speech. And it remains to be seen if any government will object.
@RonLussierLenscraft It is not hate, it is love. Not telling people that what they are doing is detrimental to them is hateful. It is like NOT telling someone their house is on fire because they might be offended that you knocked without being invited.
What is wrong with These truths are (1) the sanctity of human life, (2) the dignity of marriage as the conjugal union of husband and wife, and (3) the rights of conscience and religious liberty
Declaration of what many of us strongly believe without "bashing" those who don't. But if it did "discriminate" against those who do not believe the same isn't it "discrimination" to not allow those of us who do to express this??
What is bigotry or tyranny when we bring attention to the fact that only a Christian app is removed? Where is the removal of the apps that are offensive to Christians? Christians weren't interfering with your right to disagree but using the American system of declaration and majority consent to declare their beliefs.
Saying something is right, does not make it so. If there is an admonishment against it in the Bible, then it is wrong. Because a Christian follows the Word, does not make him/her a hater. We can love you for the person you are with out loving the act you are involved in. Making a stand for what we believe in is no more offensive than you pushing your lifestyle on us. Seems to so many of you, life is a one way road without room for any other thought.
Apparently those of you who are against the Declaration having its own App, haven't actually read it. Your straw-man arguments are the best you can come up with? They're really quite void of substance.
The truth is, some in our culture are fine with opposing voices being forced out of public discourse. That's the 21st-Century bigotry. Amazing that these are the folks claiming to be open-minded and accepting of others, while casting anyone who disagrees as close-minded.
When Christians want to talk about the loving compassionate mercy of Christ, I'm all ears. Unfortunately, none of them seem to want to talk about anything other than how they're against this or against that. Are Christians actually FOR anything other than bigotry and tyranny?
@mjcobd...you're right; Christ is loving,compassionate and merciful; that is the part everyone is all for; even non-believers..then when you get into the things that are right and wrong; things that God clearly says are wrong and sinful..that changes everything..then we Christians are right wing freaks, Jesus freaks, intolerable, and need to learn to love everyone... personally call me what you will..as for your question..Are we for anything? Living fo God; even when hated.
Childish, smug and misleading. "Declaration that affirms marriage, life and religious liberty" or a pledge to treat others badly, discriminate and which encourages civil disobedience. It is quite obvious to me who the bullies are those who pledge to discriminate and lobby against the rights of Lesbians and Gay people.
Christians actually think that openly discriminating against people is a part of their belief system. No, there ISN'T an app for that. And thank God. Apple did the right thing.
LBGT all THINK that they are RIGHT. Laughable that any would call themselves Christians, when all they do is insist on their Right to sin as they please.
kdo...you logic is lacking. The apps stores actively seeks contributors, Mr Colson does not. Having accepted a product the apps stores puts it's self in a censors positions to then pull it. And right fully should beware the wrath of users. Your last comment is on the money.... go android.
As a Christian, I am totally against the pressure put on Apple to put this App back in "their" store. Mr. Colson has a store. If there was pressure from the homosexuals to for him to carry the book "Heather has Two Mommies" Colson would be rightfully upset. Colson has the right as a private sector business in a free enterprise system to carry whatever products he wants. So does Apple. They can stock their shelves with whatever products they want. If we don't like it don't support them.
@kdonaghy0523: Everyone has the right to protest. Every company has the right to produce a product they think will be in their best interests (profit). Obviously, a right wing screed with an offensive, biased religiously based survey may not appeal to the masses.
@mykelb I looked up the word "screed" It is a noun & it means: 1 a long discourse or essay, esp. a diatribe 2 an informal letter, account, or other piece of writing. "Diatribe" means: a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism. So, yes this is a screed, but only in a positive sense. It is most definitely NOT a diatribe. It is a survey of the Christian understanding of life, marriage & religious freedom. So democracy must mean to you that only YOU get to speak! Hmmm...
The app specifically states that gay people are immoral:
"We acknowledge that there are those who are disposed towards homosexual and polyamorous conduct and relationships, just as there are those who are disposed towards other forms of immoral conduct."
Yet you don't think that's the least bit offensive?
If your biblical beliefs said that whites are superior to blacks or interracial marriage is wrong (an argument used less than 100 years ago), should Apple be forced to publish that too?
Setting up the argument in the case that removing an app because it follows so-called "Christian" beliefs is a red herring. It was deleted because of its discriminatory attitude toward LBGT people. Furthermore this app advocated breaking the law in favour of "Christian beliefs" which seem to be more and more focused on denying LBGT people rights. Believing that this attitude towards this small minority is 'Christian behavior' just shows how poor a theology churches and you that have.
To those who petitioned Apple to silence this message, I would pose one sincere question: As far as the content of this app is concerned, what are you afraid of?
I think the real point is this; here are some Christians utilizing their first amendment right to say what they value and somebody else says no? Some people who voted their conscience (Prop 8), won the vote, and the system says no? How do you react when you are told you can't talk about the things that are important to you? How would you feel if you voted for something you hold in high value, won vote, and then are told no?
Me? I'm afraid of Christianists getting too much power in the US. They are slowly losing power and that, or course, is a good thing.
Apple is smart enough to know that these Christianists are a dying breed and the arc of their power now, is in steep decline. And that's a good thing because America has no room for Christianists.
Christians crying over the fact they can't use their iPhone to sign a discriminatory and backwards pledge? Upset that you can't further twist the Good Word in your favor to attack a minority group you simply don't like? Saddened that sane people at Apple are actually allowing such nonsense to persist on their product?
I can't say I'm surprised. Somebody please call the waaaah-mbulance for these "good" Christians.
Actually, the app did more than that. It gave users a questionnaire on what is "right" and what is "wrong", clearly delineating "wrong" answers as bad. This is what was determined to be offensive, as pushing these religious viewpoints out as a game are banned for any and all religions and other groups.
If the App had only been the ability to read and sign the declaration it would probably not have been banned.
BTW- Steve Jobs continues to ban any app that is pornographic in intent as well.
I am glad Apple pulled the hateful app. I will spend extra money with them now. You are the bully and years from now your group will be treated and have the same respect the KKK has. So think about your future.
@declarelife Read the Manhattan Declaration for yourself. It calls for "civil disobedience" when it comes to laws regarding abortion and stem-cell research as well as employment, fair-housing, and marriage rights for LGBT people. Simply put, it says if a signer of the declaration finds a law that goes against their own view of morality, then don't follow it.
Excellent presentation! I am in full agreement. Not one dollar out of my pocket will end up in Apple's coffers for ANY product or service as long as they exercise this unacceptable form of censorship.
The MD app was not pulled because it endorsed a traditional viewpoint on marriage. It was pulled because many of the people associated with the Manhattan Declaration use over the top, extreme rhetoric and junk science to express bigotry toward gay people. The Declaration itself might be a well-written summary of Christian conservative viewpoints. But, it is associated with really vile and hateful advocacy that no Christian, or anyone really, should defend.
I guess it depends on who is offending and who is offended. None dare call THAT discrimination. What is right has left and what is left is right, or something like that!
A truth filled perspective of the real issue at hand in this instance. Apple Co. should be highly ashamed of it's actions in catering to a small, though certainly vocal, percentage of the population.
This is not about the issue of gay "rights" nor is it about the "rights" of Christians. This is about being able to have a discussion about one's beliefs in the public square. When a small group of people (7,700) are able to have their wishes honored over a larger group (45,821), it is called intolerance. Democracy cannot survive if there is no civil discourse or free exchange of ideas. No one on the Christian side has called for the removal of apps that are offensive to them.
imatrvlr1 1 year ago
Dear all, if a million extreme muslims signed a petion that said that is was allright to to stone people for insulting Allah, would that make it allright to have an app that showed you how to do it? Is it ok to say anything, just because your belife in one or another god tell you it is right? Is it ok to do anything just because your beliefe in one or another god says it is right? I do not think so and therefore, yes it would be right to revoke all bible apps from appstore.
ursuspolarisx 1 year ago
@ursuspolarisx your point A doesn't match to point B. Christians are't forcing you to buy the application. The application was set in place by choice. If you don't like a certain app. then don't buy it. No one is making you.
skaterman4332 1 year ago
Excellent video! I’m a minister who has grown to appreciate Apple products since getting my first MacBook Pro four years ago. However, I’ve distanced myself from the company by removing all photos of me with my laptop from my web pages. I'm also considering closing my MobileMe account (which is up for renewal later this month) unless Apple reconsiders their stance on this matter.
signsandwonders 1 year ago
there's no place for this xtian hate in this world
jerrydoubleu 1 year ago
Excellent video; thank you for sharing!
If folks find the Manhattan Declaration app offensive, there's a very simple solution: don't download it! But don't tell me I can't download it if I want it.
msawyer91 1 year ago
The app store is a walled-garden marketplace.
Strange that Focus supports restricting content in the walled garden of pay-per-view hotel movies but then does a 180 argues against it in the Apple app store.
You guys also have a term for that "viewpoint discrimination" lol
exgaysurvivordan 1 year ago
@exgaysurvivordan Invalid comparison. Movies don't function like telephones, envelopes, or stamps.
kgpfraser 1 year ago
@mykelb - Actually, the most widespread censorship in the past century was enacted by private industry, regarding their own products. Although a result of social pressure brought to bear by the Roman Catholic church, The Motion Picture Production Code was enforced by an in-house employee of what has become the Motion Picture Association of America (then called the Motion Pictures Producers and Distributors Association).
Private businesses may decide some things are "bad for business," & we are.
wilibilljones 1 year ago
@wilibilljones From your implication that you speak on behalf of the Board of Directors of Apple Inc. ("..we are"), are you reporting here that they value profitability above consideration for U.S. democracy? You're saying your board of directors asserts that un-American choice of Apple's is good "for business?" In other words, you mean that Apple's board feels that what's good for Apple doesn't need to be good for America? Maybe Steve can weigh in on your interesting report. And maybe the FBI.
kgpfraser 1 year ago
Marriage is the most fundamental institution of civilization and it should not be redefined by activist judges.Requiring citizens to sanction same-sex relationships violates moral and religious beliefs of millions of Christians, Jews, Muslims and others, who believe marriage is the union of one man and one woman.The phrase “separation of church and state” is not in the constitution. The California Supreme Court upheld Proposition 8’s ban on same-sex marriage in 2009.
billieholiday42 1 year ago
Excellant, as usual, Stuart. Thanks for the video.
DFriday33 1 year ago
Apple is wrong...and Stoplight has a lot of good points here. I appreciate CitizenLink for showing that Apple isn't some benevolent good guy but is rather a biased and anti-conservative Christian company that it appears Christians need not use.
jillo1987 1 year ago
Very good video. Sad comments by many, who are blind to the fact that Apple's pulling this app is sheer censorship. Do any of you believe in freedom of speech if it does not apply to yourselves?
gytterdun 1 year ago
@gytterdun I would have to disagree with your characterization of Apple's choice as censorship. By definition, censorship has to be carried out by a government. Apple is engaging in commercially-contributed repression of free speech. And it remains to be seen if any government will object.
kgpfraser 1 year ago
@RonLussierLenscraft It is not hate, it is love. Not telling people that what they are doing is detrimental to them is hateful. It is like NOT telling someone their house is on fire because they might be offended that you knocked without being invited.
lptull 1 year ago
@lptull Please provide peer-reviewed scientific evidence that homosexuality is detrimental to *anyone*.
mercury613 1 year ago
@mercury613 Red herring. The point is Apple contributing to newspeak.
kgpfraser 1 year ago
What is wrong with These truths are (1) the sanctity of human life, (2) the dignity of marriage as the conjugal union of husband and wife, and (3) the rights of conscience and religious liberty
col55man 1 year ago
Declaration of what many of us strongly believe without "bashing" those who don't. But if it did "discriminate" against those who do not believe the same isn't it "discrimination" to not allow those of us who do to express this??
CHilldore 1 year ago
What is bigotry or tyranny when we bring attention to the fact that only a Christian app is removed? Where is the removal of the apps that are offensive to Christians? Christians weren't interfering with your right to disagree but using the American system of declaration and majority consent to declare their beliefs.
Chaplainj40 1 year ago
Saying something is right, does not make it so. If there is an admonishment against it in the Bible, then it is wrong. Because a Christian follows the Word, does not make him/her a hater. We can love you for the person you are with out loving the act you are involved in. Making a stand for what we believe in is no more offensive than you pushing your lifestyle on us. Seems to so many of you, life is a one way road without room for any other thought.
gramma2many 1 year ago
Apparently those of you who are against the Declaration having its own App, haven't actually read it. Your straw-man arguments are the best you can come up with? They're really quite void of substance.
The truth is, some in our culture are fine with opposing voices being forced out of public discourse. That's the 21st-Century bigotry. Amazing that these are the folks claiming to be open-minded and accepting of others, while casting anyone who disagrees as close-minded.
theR0nin 1 year ago
When Christians want to talk about the loving compassionate mercy of Christ, I'm all ears. Unfortunately, none of them seem to want to talk about anything other than how they're against this or against that. Are Christians actually FOR anything other than bigotry and tyranny?
mjcobd 1 year ago
@mjcobd...you're right; Christ is loving,compassionate and merciful; that is the part everyone is all for; even non-believers..then when you get into the things that are right and wrong; things that God clearly says are wrong and sinful..that changes everything..then we Christians are right wing freaks, Jesus freaks, intolerable, and need to learn to love everyone... personally call me what you will..as for your question..Are we for anything? Living fo God; even when hated.
rschlitten 1 year ago
Good for Apple! The app was stupid anyway.
armstrongpaul1964 1 year ago
Childish, smug and misleading. "Declaration that affirms marriage, life and religious liberty" or a pledge to treat others badly, discriminate and which encourages civil disobedience. It is quite obvious to me who the bullies are those who pledge to discriminate and lobby against the rights of Lesbians and Gay people.
daveonthego 1 year ago
Apple pulling an app that encourages people to break the law? I applaud Apple for that. Next laptop I buy will be from Apple.
vital427 1 year ago
Christians actually think that openly discriminating against people is a part of their belief system. No, there ISN'T an app for that. And thank God. Apple did the right thing.
Seppi12 1 year ago
@Seppi12 Discrimination is not the issue, moral standards are. Where does this end? When people are allowed to marry their animals… or their cars?
I appreciate your thoughtful discussion.
firedude2894 1 year ago 2
@firedude2894 Why would same-sex marriage lead to people marrying animals? Did giving women the right to vote lead to donkeys being able to vote?
Red herring. Stinky, smelly red herring.
mercury613 1 year ago
@mercury613 Reductio ad absurdio. You are not engaging the question of Apple banning civil discourse.
kgpfraser 1 year ago
LBGT all THINK that they are RIGHT. Laughable that any would call themselves Christians, when all they do is insist on their Right to sin as they please.
ISingZep 1 year ago
kdo...you logic is lacking. The apps stores actively seeks contributors, Mr Colson does not. Having accepted a product the apps stores puts it's self in a censors positions to then pull it. And right fully should beware the wrath of users. Your last comment is on the money.... go android.
tuxfragbait 1 year ago
As a Christian, I am totally against the pressure put on Apple to put this App back in "their" store. Mr. Colson has a store. If there was pressure from the homosexuals to for him to carry the book "Heather has Two Mommies" Colson would be rightfully upset. Colson has the right as a private sector business in a free enterprise system to carry whatever products he wants. So does Apple. They can stock their shelves with whatever products they want. If we don't like it don't support them.
kdonaghy0523 1 year ago
@kdonaghy0523: Everyone has the right to protest. Every company has the right to produce a product they think will be in their best interests (profit). Obviously, a right wing screed with an offensive, biased religiously based survey may not appeal to the masses.
mykelb 1 year ago 2
@mykelb I looked up the word "screed" It is a noun & it means: 1 a long discourse or essay, esp. a diatribe 2 an informal letter, account, or other piece of writing. "Diatribe" means: a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism. So, yes this is a screed, but only in a positive sense. It is most definitely NOT a diatribe. It is a survey of the Christian understanding of life, marriage & religious freedom. So democracy must mean to you that only YOU get to speak! Hmmm...
nlkilgore 1 year ago
The app specifically states that gay people are immoral:
"We acknowledge that there are those who are disposed towards homosexual and polyamorous conduct and relationships, just as there are those who are disposed towards other forms of immoral conduct."
Yet you don't think that's the least bit offensive?
If your biblical beliefs said that whites are superior to blacks or interracial marriage is wrong (an argument used less than 100 years ago), should Apple be forced to publish that too?
DavidAndSteve 1 year ago
Setting up the argument in the case that removing an app because it follows so-called "Christian" beliefs is a red herring. It was deleted because of its discriminatory attitude toward LBGT people. Furthermore this app advocated breaking the law in favour of "Christian beliefs" which seem to be more and more focused on denying LBGT people rights. Believing that this attitude towards this small minority is 'Christian behavior' just shows how poor a theology churches and you that have.
GeneralAdventure 1 year ago
To those who petitioned Apple to silence this message, I would pose one sincere question: As far as the content of this app is concerned, what are you afraid of?
Great video!
firedude2894 1 year ago 2
@firedude2894 Not afraid, my friend. ANGRY. Afraid people stay silent.
Seppi12 1 year ago
@Seppi12
I think the real point is this; here are some Christians utilizing their first amendment right to say what they value and somebody else says no? Some people who voted their conscience (Prop 8), won the vote, and the system says no? How do you react when you are told you can't talk about the things that are important to you? How would you feel if you voted for something you hold in high value, won vote, and then are told no?
I welcome your thoughtful feedback.
firedude2894 1 year ago 2
@firedude2894
Me? I'm afraid of Christianists getting too much power in the US. They are slowly losing power and that, or course, is a good thing.
Apple is smart enough to know that these Christianists are a dying breed and the arc of their power now, is in steep decline. And that's a good thing because America has no room for Christianists.
timm1720 1 year ago
@firedude2894: Not afraid of anything except the outright lies, assumptions and obfuscations of the right wing lobby to control American's lives.
mykelb 1 year ago 2
@mykelb Please be specific. What lies, assumptions and obfuscations are you referring to? Thanks
firedude2894 1 year ago
Christians crying over the fact they can't use their iPhone to sign a discriminatory and backwards pledge? Upset that you can't further twist the Good Word in your favor to attack a minority group you simply don't like? Saddened that sane people at Apple are actually allowing such nonsense to persist on their product?
I can't say I'm surprised. Somebody please call the waaaah-mbulance for these "good" Christians.
HenhousetheRed 1 year ago
Actually, the app did more than that. It gave users a questionnaire on what is "right" and what is "wrong", clearly delineating "wrong" answers as bad. This is what was determined to be offensive, as pushing these religious viewpoints out as a game are banned for any and all religions and other groups.
If the App had only been the ability to read and sign the declaration it would probably not have been banned.
BTW- Steve Jobs continues to ban any app that is pornographic in intent as well.
wildeman2222 1 year ago 2
I am glad Apple pulled the hateful app. I will spend extra money with them now. You are the bully and years from now your group will be treated and have the same respect the KKK has. So think about your future.
sageweb 1 year ago 2
Apple pulls an app that advocates breaking the law. I don't see the problem.
aVaKus 1 year ago
@aVaKus--Just so we can be clear, what specific text is advocating breaking the law and what law is it that the text is advocating breaking?
Thanks!
declarelife 1 year ago
@declarelife Read the Manhattan Declaration for yourself. It calls for "civil disobedience" when it comes to laws regarding abortion and stem-cell research as well as employment, fair-housing, and marriage rights for LGBT people. Simply put, it says if a signer of the declaration finds a law that goes against their own view of morality, then don't follow it.
aVaKus 1 year ago
Excellent presentation! I am in full agreement. Not one dollar out of my pocket will end up in Apple's coffers for ANY product or service as long as they exercise this unacceptable form of censorship.
bebroers 1 year ago
The app and this man are offensive. Good for Apple for standing up against bigotry.
Don't like it Stu? Go buy a PC and an Android.
dec3700 1 year ago
The app was slander.
ttmfg 1 year ago
The MD app was not pulled because it endorsed a traditional viewpoint on marriage. It was pulled because many of the people associated with the Manhattan Declaration use over the top, extreme rhetoric and junk science to express bigotry toward gay people. The Declaration itself might be a well-written summary of Christian conservative viewpoints. But, it is associated with really vile and hateful advocacy that no Christian, or anyone really, should defend.
gabrielhudson 1 year ago
I love Apple Products...
But it appears some of Apple's employees (including Steve Jobs) are beginning to censure free expression.
On this one... THEY ARE WRONG!
Stockholders, customers, and all Americans should be very concerned.
btrask3 1 year ago
@btrask3; Only government can CENSOR free speech. Businesses make a business decision on what is going to SELL.
mykelb 1 year ago 2
@mykelb Then I guess this was a bad businesses decision? Only half a million signatures already...
guitarguy0709rb 1 year ago
Great exit line. Well done.
gorillamummy 1 year ago
Great video and I agree 100%. Nice job getting the message out!
fstemp 1 year ago
.....I TOLD THEM i WAS OFFENDED THAT they removed the APP.
2MorMor 1 year ago
Nicely expressed and produced.
cincinnatiyankee 1 year ago
Couldn't agree more with the episode!
fishy7201 1 year ago
I emailed Steve Jobs and signed the petition. I'm fed up with the only folks its ok to offend are Christians.
simplejoys4 1 year ago
I guess it depends on who is offending and who is offended. None dare call THAT discrimination. What is right has left and what is left is right, or something like that!
pastrrick 1 year ago
A truth filled perspective of the real issue at hand in this instance. Apple Co. should be highly ashamed of it's actions in catering to a small, though certainly vocal, percentage of the population.
Kihisho1 1 year ago