Hilarious to me the fanaticism that occasions the study of a tome that can spawn tens of thousands of flavors of "Christian." Calvinists, as well as Arminians, will claim the other's best verses for "contextual" reasons where, in any other book, they would merely be considered contradictory. The flexibility of the text should undermine its validity.
It is a difficult task to attempt to understand the concept on salvation. Much is a mystery to the human mind. We do know which what has been said by others here that salvation alone comes from Christ and the shedding of his blood as atonement for sins. We as christians must remember that it is nothing in ourselves that saves us, the bible says we are dead in our sins (this is why Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again spiritually). Therefore if were dead we cannot save ourself.
@margovenvallen Rev 3:20, context context context It's not speaking to unbelievers nor offering salvation. In Rev 3:14 tells you whom is being spoken too "angels of the church" i.e. Believers
@ElDemonioTribute Totally inaccurate! It's speaking to the Laodicean Church.. as they were lukewarm and devoid of faith.. didn't even know they were wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked.. always sitting neutral or indifferent in matters of faith. They were grossly over-confident in their 'religion'.. and were totally unaware they were 'bankrupt' per their spiritual 'wealth.'
To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
@motibi To agnostics : "To doubt, is to not believe.. therefore, so-called "agnostics" are indeed atheists in denial."
To atheists : "It takes just as much FAITH to disbelieve a TRUTH.. as it does to believe. You already have faith, just the wrong direction and application, thereof."
If you read the Bible, in the context of, Romans 9, then you will begin to understand. What man does not understand, is, God is the Creater, he is the creation. Its His will, His plan, His pleasure.(Isa 46:10) God does not owe man anything. God is absolutely terrifying. No one can obey, but God still commands, anyway. In Romans 9:19, it says, why does He yet find fault? for who has resisted His will? What do you think is being taught there? You mean, you made this way, and now your blaming me?
This debate is a classic.I suggest everyone to watch all parts of this debate in its entirety!!! This is what made me accept the calvinist belief and reject arminianism.It took me 3 times watching it to make me give up arminianism.Worth every bit of it!!!!! PLease watch it!!!!
Read Confessions already, I'll read "The City of God" once I get the time and the book. As for your allegation that the Bible knows nothing of Calvinism, which is the only serious charge that you have alleged, I present Proverbs 21:4, Psalm 73:18, Isaiah 10:15, Amos 3:6, John 10:26, Matthew 25:34, Revelation 17:8, Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 2:5, Acts 4:28, Romans 9:16-23, just to name a few. Read them in their context, not just the individual verses.
One question; what about people who desire to believe in Jesus Christ (His message and all pertaining to Him) badly, hating their lack of unbelief/unstable certitude; just hoping that God would shower upon his/her crys with the love of Christ, and reward him/her with that longed for certainity ?
So, according to the previous written statement, would it be safe to assume they're part of the elect? Or would it be safe to assume calvinism, in itself, is a falsehood of satan?
I guess Calvinism is a very hard thing to accept because no one wants other people to go to hell. But when I read Romans 9 that expressly outlines the sovereignty of God I feel fairly confident that predestination is not a heretical and foolish doctrine. Also Ephesions 1: 11-14 which points out that we were chosen and predestined according to God's plan. Of course Calvinism probably does have some things wrong but what denomination doesn't? So Overall I think we have a lot of scriptural support.
God gives us free will to choose. He calls ALL.. and whomever yields to that call, He elects. Salvation is indeed by GRACE ALONE.. by FAITH in Jesus Christ ALONE.. who died for ALL. It's a GIFT of GOD... NOT OF WORKS.. and it is ETERNAL. Jesus stands at the door of our hearts and He knocks... and we choose to either open the door and invite Him in.. or ignore Him.
@margovallen "Jesus stands at the door and knocks." You know what this is saying ? God himself is pleading to come inside your heart. Really now, God who is sovereign is pleading to come inside your heart ? Is God sovereign if you can refuse his plead ?
Give me the scripture to back you up, and I'll show you the real context of the scripture when it says "ALL". If YOU are the one who chooses to open the door for God, it is YOU who saved yourself. God is pleading to save you, but He can't.
@rainbowcicak Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and KNOCK: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Doesn't this passage of scripture suggest CHOICE and other actions on the part of man?
@rainbowcicak God is Sovereign no matter what. Please don't try to make sense of what may to U, seem an 'oxymoron' as Gods thoughts and ways are not like our thought and ways. Yet, another reason we must take things per God and His Word by Faith. My giving U scripture to "back me up" would not do any good.. since ur evidently, doing ur interpretations of Gods Word via ur own (very lacking and oh so limited) intellect.
Give you scriptures so you can show me the real context.. LOL!
@FirebrandNIRE Has nothing to do with Him being indebted to anyone. Christ knows whats best for us.. but, we have to want it for ourselves.. God does not force. He made the offering.. but, we must choose to accept or reject.
@FirebrandNIRE He taught limited atonement.. where the Bible teaches Universal atonement. He also taught infant baptism. Taught necessity of sacraments (water baptism) for salvation.. baptismal regeneration.
Plus, he was a tyrant... having people killed whom disagreed with his heretical doctrine.
@bammc19 Not sure what you're referring to.. but, do you really know what "Christ-like" is? He surely was not the soft-spoken meek individual, that the seems to be the buzz going around per the description of His demeanor. He was a radical in every way. He talked smack to the Pharisees and got into peoples faces, if provoked.
Jesus Christ was no mealy-mouthed wimp! Kinda like me :-)
@margovallen sorry there is absolutely no free will in salvation at all that is an excuse for man to get some glory over God himself! When God almighty calls his elect it is undoubtedly irresistible! So take away your pride and boasting and realize that God himself deserves the glory not us! God bless fellow brother!
@ghosthunter5656 Firstly, know whom your talking to... I'm nobodies 'brother.' Secondly, you, my friend.. are the one mistaken. Salvation (the gift of Grace) is offered to all. Jesus died for ALL.. not just some 'elect' few. Its about our choices in life. God is not going to save those of whom don't desire salvation or think they don't need salvation.
I can offer you a gift.. but, it's up to you to accept and receive it in order to have it.
I'm nobodies brother? Nice attitude towards a 'brother in Christ'. Read your bible and you will understand that Christians are the family of God. Colossians 1:2 To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ. Your emotions are more involved in your argument that the Scriptures.
@margovallen and precisely how would anybody know that you are a woman from your posts? duh!! also, brother in the Bible does not necessarily mean a male, but a term meaning family of God. Just like mankind does not just apply to men. Use some common sense please and if you really do insist on replying, don't put stupid comments like "what...you can't read?" Saying this could just mean that you are not a Christian, not that you are a woman.
@youneededucating Well, women speak differently than men, first of all. Secondly,if a person had a brain-cell to call their own, they might either loo at the name "Margo".. and do the math... or consider gazing at one's profile and viewing the pic. Take your pick!
"Brother" is for a man. "Brethren" means both members of the body of Christ. "Mankind" means human-kind.. men and women.
This issue here is "brother" and I am a female.. and nobodies brother but, sister in Christ.
(Cont) Spin it anyway you'd like... as many "men" surely have no qualms in doing that... but, what I'm saying here is factual.. and you're grasping at a dried up straw.
Take your ass-whipping like a man.. if thats what you are.. and move along! :-)
@margovallen So, if Jesus did die for all, why are people still going to hell? If he died for all people then His grace should cover all, and all should go to heaven or you believe that his sacrifice on the cross somehow didn't accomplish its mission. We cannot choose a perfect, holy God because we are so terribly sinful. He is sovereign in the fact that WE ALL DESERVE HELL and he owes us nothing yet He chooses to save some. That's an amazing thing. TULIP FTW BABY!
@bammc19 Calvinism is backward and causes lots of confusion to a simple plan. Christ died for ALL. Thats Universal Reconciliation aka 'putting man into the position to be saved.' The Gift of Grace had been offered to ALL and the plan was lay out for all to see. God gave man a soul, a brain, reasoning-skills, eyes, ears, informed choices and free-will to make those choices. Souls are in Hell because of their choices. People chose to reject Christ and His Divine Grace.
Man can neither choose or evil by choice, he can only act upon this evil always because by birth he was born into the abyss of Sin, his nature is wickedness and evil and God rejecting, his whole blueprint is evil continually and he knows nothings else.
Therefore he does NOT choose Christ because he cannot, seeing he is dead in sin, and he chooses NOT Sin because he is Sin Already.
@FirebrandNIRE What? Man doesn't know right from wrong, good from evil? So, when God said "let us make man in our image".. did you think that God was plainly speaking about how man should look? Not hardly! "Our image" would be the images of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit both, aesthetically (looks).. and mental/spiritual demeanor. Since the Fall of man, we are depraved spiritually but, not mentally! "Believing" is a choice and starts in the brain and moves into the heart.
"Speak reason to a fool and to him, it is foolish." So, it is only "illogical" to the illogical.. or illogically-minded. I need not "sit back and listen" to anything I've said. I'm the one that said it. Did you think I was just plainly making it us as I went along? You probably do.You believe that man cannot choose whether he would like to spend eternity in Heaven, should it be explained Biblicall. vs spend eternity in Hell, should it be explained Biblically? Man is that depraved?
Please listen to some sense? I have been.. in the form of the Holy Spirit. You're surely not insinuating I must listen to you, are you? I cannot hear anything from you, that you haven't got.So, yes! God tells us how to become saved from an eternity of damnation. So, if an individual hears.. and doesn't do what God says to do to be saved, that individual has chosen Hell.
(cont) If you're a professional base-ball pitcher and you know the rules say "no grease-balls" and tells you of the consequences.. yet, you did it anyway. You chose the consequences.
Man is already paying the consequences. The rules to which you apply were broken at the fall. Your trying to make this apply to today. Man already forfeited his right to reign in God's kingdom and instead brought in the reign of Sin and misery.
Its only now through GRACE that God turned to man in his mercy.
@FirebrandNIRE I'm sorry! Are you something other than human? It seems you're a Simpleton.. hence, the baseball analogy. It's ridiculous to you because, you're ridiculous. I know what man was then and what man is today. John Calvin was just a plain human-being. With all of his stain from original sin and sins he'd done himself.. good, bad, ugly just like the rest of us.
You're a follower of John Calvin. Not Jesus Christ.
Get saved by the blood of Christ.. Calvin cannot save you.
@FirebrandNIRE Spiritually, YES! I am spiritually perfect. In fact, the moment I was saved, the Righteousness of Christ was imputed to me.. and He is a veil over me.. and when God, the Father looks at me, He is looking through Christ.. therefore, sees perfection :-)
Did you earn that righteousness by your own free will decisionism? or was it given by God's 'FREE' electing Grace?
If it was given by Grace alone, then your free-will nonsense falls flat on its miserable face.
The perfection that God demands is the complete Law, not mere human attaining of perfection.
Yes Christ's righteousness covers our unrighteousness, but that does not cause us not to sin, as John said" If you say you have no sin you are a liar."
@FirebrandNIRE IMPOSSIBLE! We cannot "work for" or in any way "earn" anything to do with our Eternal Salvation. God commands us to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved!" Belief is a choice. Personally, I really don't look at and see any sort of "work" but, its what we must do to be saved. Salvation is a gift of God.. not of ourselves, lest anyone boast. Nothing I've stated has fallen flat anywhere. Grace is offered. We must receive it through Faith alone.
(cont) The perfection that God demand is the complete Law? My friend, we are no longer under the curse of the Law... but, under Grace. Whatever "perfection" God 'demands"... HE PROVIDES! Jesus lived by the Law perfectly for us. He works any perfection in us that we will ever have. If you're suggesting that somehow we are to do something to somehow 'enhance' our own perfection, you're sadly mistaken. How does one improve on perfection?
I'm totally convinced that your knowledge of the Scriptures is very poor.
God demands complete perfection of his subjects because he is God he cannot demand anything less that perfection, complete perfection! Being under the law or under Grace is not the issue at hand here, so don't fudge the issue. Your really missing the point here.
@FirebrandNIRE Whatever! Another of your jabs to get all the attention off of yourself and your own vast deficiencies? Not working here! I am quite well-versed in the Word of God and you know that to be true. You're not fooling me. You've pulled one weak defense (sometimes in the form of a weak offense) after another trying to prove your weak and corrupt doctrine. Again, don't utilize yourself as any sort of "standard" per anything to do with the scriptures to be measured by.
@FirebrandNIRE God is the one whom does all the saving. He save us.. we do not (cannot) save ourselves. God gave us a brain (well??? He gave me a brain.. lol).. and since we choose to believe (or disbelieve both of which, are by Faith.. since we've not actually 'seen' either way) Yes, I believe by Faith.
btw the Greek word For dead is 'nekrous' it means a CORPSE, please tell me how a CORPSE can believe in anything seeing it is dead AS WE WERE before GOD Quickened US to believe.
(cont) Not only am I well verse in the Word of God, I have a major advantage because I am saved and the Holy Spirit leads me in my study and interpretation of the Word of God. Evidently, unlike yourself.
Like I stated, any and all perfection in us, He does. If He expects anything more, He provides it! It's really ALL ABOUT HIM in lieu of all about us. A simple and true concept you seem to be vastly unfamiliar with. It has EVERYTHING to do with being or not, under the Law vs Grace.
The Spirit leads into truth, not the Heretical Doctrines Of Rome, that is Free Willism.
You really should educate yourself in Rome's Hatred of the Sovereign Doctrines Of Grace in Election, they are one and the same as yours. Prove me Wrong...
@FirebrandNIRE Firstly, U are an EXTREMIST in that, if you're looking at a person and see they are not perfect.. they must be a freaking serial-killer. My KNOWLEDGE of Gods Word is not based on anything but Gods Word and in the leadership/guidance of the Holy Spirit. Being that the doctrine of Free-Will just so happen to be the teachings of the Catholics is merely incidental. A COMMON-GROUND between the Catholics and Reformations. Not every doctrine of the Catholic Faith is false.
(cont) One more thing : I never said anything about "Christs righteousness covers our unrighteousness".. what I did say was "Christs Righteousness is imputed to us!" Meaning, we are indeed Righteous in Him. Its as though we've never sinned at all, in the eyes of God. He makes us perfect! Not 'as though' we are perfect. There is no such thing as the "mere human attaining of perfection", nothing God does is "mere." Nobody can live by the Law perfectly. Hence, Jesus Christ given to us.
Please listen: If your believing apart from God's Sovereign is the vehicle for God to save you, then that becomes works Righteousness. Thats what you believe right? yes Or No?
@FirebrandNIRE No, I did not misconstrue anything. You're just spinning what I do say, because I am not giving you exactly the words you wanna hear.. the way you wanna hear them.
In Gods Sovereignty, He still gives if Free-will to make informed decisions. You see that as impossible and contradictory.. while I see it as the fact that his thoughts and ways are not like our thought and ways.
Its not Works-Righteousness.. no such thing. Nor Works-Salvation. no such thing.
Cut the nonsense,you keep jumping about and avoiding any questions.
It's quite puerile and not adult.
Again please show me from God;s Word How a dead man can believe in Gospel Prior to Regeneration Of The Spirit, that is being quickened by the Spirit Eph.2:1
@FirebrandNIRE If you're seeking exact words, forget it. But, heres one that suggests His offered Grace : John 3:16-18
Grace received through faith : Eph2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith;"
Heres one that says He died for ALL : Hebrews 2:9 - But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for *every man*.
@margovallen Your making absolutely no sense right now, therefore I cannot respond because as I would end up even more confused by your stubborn remarks and ridiculous attempts to promote the Doctrines of Rome's Free Willism rather than embrace the Doctrines of Graces.
You can not combine Rome's Graceless Free-Willism With the Lord's Doctrines of Grace
@FirebrandNIRE What you seem to be missing is the fact that, you're trying to 'reason' out the scriptures by utilizing your own intellect.. somehow thinking you're some sort of 'standard' by which all reasoning should be judged. If thats not pompously arrogant, nothing is. Gods ways aren't our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. To the Simpleton, one cannot coincide Sovereignty and Grace with Free-Will and choice.
Seems oxymoronic.. but, it exists just the very same :-)
(cont) Also, if I say something that you feel is stupid, why don't you just """correct""" me and move along without tossing your little-boy asinine insults at me. I already know you're a desperate individual, theres no need to try an prove that to me by your superiority-delusions.
I know that you don't know what you're talking about. I think YOU need to recognize that fact, in so to not remain ignorant.
I don't know what I'm talking about? Is this according to your Superior Supernatural Knowledge of all things? WOW thats just plain arrogant If I do say so.
@FirebrandNIRE I never said anything suggesting I am all-knowing. There you go again, little-boy. Show your ass to the world. Dr. Spin! You became obnoxious and annoying about 4-5 hours ago today.
You're just super-prideful and hate it when you've been whipped.. especially by a woman. Without admitting you have a serious problem, how can the healing begin?
Which part of the Doctrines of Grace don't you comprehend?
Because you still insist upon Rome's doctrines of Free Willism.
Rather, what is your understanding of what God's Grace is?
If you don't understand this Biblical concept then, continuing this dialogue is futile.
If your God's Plan of Salvation is dependent upon out human decisions that plan will fail at the first hurdle, and is therefore not of Grace but rather human decision making.
(cont) How many times must I reiterate the fact(s) that 'we hear the Gospel.. and the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart (instigation attempt, to draw us forwardly).. and we choose to yield to the Spirit or we choose ignore it. We have the God-given free-will to choose where we would like to spend Eternity. Man is NOT "sin, already".. man sins, man is sinful. Christ, on the other hand.. became sin when on the Cross. Mans blue-print is NOT 'evil continuously.' Mans blue-print is of God.
(cont) Man is 'stained' from the original sin of Adam. God made man perfectly! Adam had free-will to do whatever he chose to do, when he chose to do it. Thats the blue-print of man. God told Adam not to partake of the Tree of Knowledge. He chose to disobey. If he didn't have a choice, would God have given him the ability to choose? God didn't make Adam a mind-less drone. He gave him a sense of reason in so to be able to make decisions via choice. We are all made that very same way.
The original image of God in man obliterated for all mankind at the fall, when at that time man HAD FREE WILL (Of Sorts), That image of God is only through the work of sanctification being renewed through Christ, and never perfectly completed in this life until we get to heaven, THEN ONLY THEN WILL WE BE LIKE HIM.
Man can never choose Christ unless GOD The FATHER first draws him, Man knows only evil and eschews all that is Spiritual because of his original sin condition.
@FirebrandNIRE Inaccurate! The original image of God in man was not obliterated. Man can destroy the image of God? NO! God is God and man is man. God created man.. not the other way around. God created man exactly as He desired to create man.. and for His own good pleasure. While God created man in His own image in the ways I've already mentioned, it was the 'image' not an exact replica. Man can sin and be effected. God cannot sin.
(cont) Didn't I already mention (several times) that man hears the Gospel and the Holy Spirit speaks to man heart in the effort of leading him unto salvation? There is no "sort of" about it! God gave Adam free-will to choose.. just as He has given it to all human-beings. After the Fall, not everything per man was destroyed.
Adam died spiritually... and yes, eventually he died physically. Both of which, were a direct result of his disobedience.
Man lost his Free Will at the fall, and even then look what he choose he choose Evil though the temptation of Satan, So HOW much more will he choose evil seeing in is born into a sinful body full of putrefying sores??
@FirebrandNIRE Man did not lose his free-will at the fall. Man lost his authority and dominion over the Earth and everything on it. Actually, he gave it away.. handed it to satan when he disobeyed God. Adam was created spiritually alive but, became spiritually dead via disobedience. Did he lose his ability to think and reason? He didn't lose his ability to multiply the Earth. Did he lose his ability to see and/or hear? Did he lose his ability to love Eve?
I seriously think that you intentionally refuse to listen to reason. Your ears are closed.
If the image of God remained then Christ's death was in vain, and the work of sanctification would be needless. God would just require us to be obedient and believe in him and all will be well.
But man through the fall became the image of his father the devil. If you can't see man in his awful putrid state then you fail to see the Work of God's redemption to rid his people of Sin.
@FirebrandNIRE My ears aren't closed.. just that, my BS filters are working well. Just hope they don't burn-out from being overly used, talking to you.. haha!
if you actually study the bible, rather than speaking from your emotions yet again, you will see that the word 'All' does not mean every single person. For example, John 12:19 The Whole World has gone after Him!. Did the pharisees really mean the whole world, knowing themselves and others did not follow Jesus' teachings and claims.
I just posted the following at margavallen in response to something he said to you........
"I'm nobodies brother?" Nice attitude towards a 'brother in Christ'. Read your bible and you will understand that Christians are the family of God. Colossians 1:2 To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ. Your emotions are more involved in your argument that the Scriptures.
@margovallen How can we choose? If we are SO INCREDIBLY sinful... which you should believe, or Christ wouldn't of had to come- then how could we possibly choose a perfect, holy, righteous God.
@bammc19 We hear the Gospel, the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart. We yield to the Spirit or ignore it. If the Gospel is being correctly preached, theres going to be some talk about Hell-fire/brim-stone. Wouldn't U think a person who has received the correct
details of the Gospel could decide where he/she would like to spent eternity? Not too many are going to opt for Hell. Are we just so devoid spiritually that we've lost all capacity to think? We have free-will to make informed choices
i am with paul washer on this issue..the issue is not calvinism or arminianism..the issue is regeneration. No matter what side you are on, do you believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ producing repentance from sin and fruit that bears HIS name? If you are going to spend your whole life in theological debate, then you are going to miss relationship with Christ. Read Matthew 7:16-20. There's where your answer lies.
@drew30bebe Yes but, any and all regeneration done is on the part of God... it's His job to regenerate us.. to change us as He deems necessary. "Fruits" of the spirit may be outward, inward or both. We repent when we first come to Christ.. telling Him things about us that He already knows.. and He forgives us of our sins past, present and future.. at that time. His righteousness is IMPUTED onto us.. so, when God, the Father looks at us, He looks through Christ.. as He is a veil over us.
@drew30bebe You're with Paul Washer.. yet, he is not correct, either. satan doesn't care which avenue we choose for him to deceive us. Just so he does. satan isn't about anything but, the end result of those of whom are lost. As for the saved, he likes to confuse and attack in various ways. Regeneration is the work of Christ and Him only.. and it transpires at the moment we believe on Him.
One doesn't "repent of ones sins." Biblical repentance is simply 'having a change of mind.'
@FirebrandNIRE "Modern-Day" Reformation is not what the Bible teaches. I read and study the Bible and listen to those of whom do the very same thing. Neither Arminianism or Calvinism are totally correct. Some points of both are correct. Many present the Gospel 'sugar-coated' and 'watered-down' as to gain favoritism (from the people).. popularity (among the people) and wealth (at the expense of the people.. monetarily and spiritually).. never touching on the "vitals" of the Gospel.
That sounds all very sweet and gooey, but doctrinally deficient.
The Gospel declares than Man is Dead in Sin, and God makes alive through 'Grace' displayed by Christ's atoning death, not because there is a little bit of good in man to make him believe. There is none Good NO NOT ONE. To be good in God estiamtion is to without Sin. Man has not the capacity to believe in Christ because Prior to his regeneration he IS DEAD. A CORPSE in biblical terms. THIS IS THE GOSPEL OF GRACE.
@FirebrandNIRE Dead in sin means just that. Not crazy or mentally ill or physically ill. Its about the spirit.. man is spiritually dead. Believe has nothing to do with "having a little bit of good." Belief starts in the brain and moves to the heart. Man is not so depraved in all areas as Calvinism would like everybody to believe. There is still his reasoning skills. Well, I say that.. then after a dialogue with you, I start to wonder.. lol!
(cont) If we must believe by faith to be saved (made righteous, justified, regenerated, etc).. then how can we not believe until we have been regenerated?
Nobody would be saved then.
Belief comes first.. and we must have faith to to that. THEN we are saved, righteous, justified and regenerated.
If your believe is generated by you and not God's 'Gift Of Faith' given to enable you to believe, then Salvation is not all of God, because YOU had part and lot in your own Salvation, but Christ Tells us us that this is not so.
This is Basic Theology , but because of your stubbornness you refuse to see this fact.
@FirebrandNIRE My friend, you need a spiritual enema! You couldn't possibly have ears/eyes remotely considered in that of the spiritual.. as you cannot even seem to "read/comprehend/GRASP" things I've already shared with you.
And again your stubbornness will only allow you to think that the human nature has any part or lot in Salvation.
I believe Salvation is totally all of God 'including the power to beleive'.
You prefer to be deluded into thinking that man has some sort of life and power to believe, whereas the Scripture declare us to be Spiritually Discerned and completely dead in Sin.
I prefer to trust the Scriptures on these issues and not human emotion or free thinking.
@FirebrandNIRE What you deem as "stubbornness" ..I KNOW is a well-oiled optimally performing 'bull-shit-o-meter!' Being dead in sin.. unless that sin is praying to the devil and taking vast amounts of drugs.. LSD included... drinking like a fish.. and attempting suicide by a gun-shot to the head.. blowing away half our brain, only lived.. we are able to hear, comprehend and accept or reject.
@FirebrandNIRE The Word of God tells us that no one is good but, God. He's speaking spiritually. But, a person coming to the Lord is already saved therefore, God looks at and sees them as genuinely good? Or a person is lost and not deemed good in the eyes of God? And having the abilities to hear, think and reason have just nata to do with whether or not a person is good.You see, God is a selfish and jealous God. So, an unsaved moral person is not good in any way per God.
(cont) It was that way with Adam pre/post Fall and its the very same today. God didn't punish Adam and Eve by taking away their brains or their sense of reason/understanding. He told them what not to do, they did it anyway AND died spiritually and were evicted from the Garden. If they'd could not reason, they'd not know why they were given the boot. They knew and they understood very well. The Holy Spirit SPEAKS TO OUR HEARTS with the hope of drawing us to salvation. COMPLICATE NOT!
(cont) Repentance is going from the thought of not considering that we have sinned against God, that we are lost and hopeless hell-deserving sinners.... to realizing thats exactly whom/what we are.. and we turn to Christ. He makes,at that time.. the appropriate changes in us that saves us. We are made righteous, justified, regenerated, born-again, children of God.. and others. Those are un-seen fruits of the spirit. Christ does ALL the saving. Our job is to BELIEVE.
(cont) The 'seen' fruits of the spirit in the born-again believer occur over time.. and IF at all. Some people never 'grow up' spiritually.. and may never display any fruits of the spirit... but, that doesn't make them any less saved. It makes them less 'blessed.'
Salvation is for receiving.. not giving. Many Christians never arrive at the place to 'conquer' certain habits or sins. All of that are rooted in their God-given free-will to choose to have a close walk or a distant walk.
You can believe in Calvinism if you want to; as for me, as a Catholic free will is a basic dogma of the Church, so I have no choice, I have to believe in free will.
As for Calvin, it is just the greatest tragedy in Church history that St. Paul never had Calvin around to explain to him what he really meant. No one believed in any thing like Calvinism for 1500yrs. It is just insane to hold that every generation of Christians were wrong until he came along.
@VictorLepanto I enjoy what you have to say but I have to say that the RCC is very dogmatic about what you must believe. The preponderance of teaching I see on the YouTube is that they are the One True Church. Problem with this is that Jesus, not Peter, is the rock not hewn by hands. You can look in the Old Testament and find Christ referred to when they talk about this great rock. In every circumstance I am aware of, this refers to Christ. The RCC takes the definition and skews it to mean them.
@courag1: Why give an inspired inerrant Bible if we are just going to make up whatever suits us? Asserting something is true is all that is meant by "dogmatic." You go on about the supposed "dogmatism" the Church in one sentence, & then (w/o the slightest hint of the absurdity of it) you assert one of YOUR chosen dogmas. As for what is or isn't the "rock;" what you say is very interesting, but I prefer to listen to Jesus who said to St. Peter, "Thou art Peter..."
@VictorLepanto Get yourself a Strongs Concordance and do a word research for the word "rock" and follow it through scripture. The Bible is it's own best interpreter. Whatever is really important, is taught again and again. Jesus did not want his church deceived or confused. So it is best to make sure, instead of assuming that you are right, to prove to yourself you are right. If you find you were mistaken, you corrected yourself this side of eternity.
@courag1: I've had a Strong's for about 20yrs now, & I'm familiar w/ the use of the rock in the Bible. It is primarily attributed to God. So for Jesus to use in reference to Simon bar Jonah is clear indication of the special authority He is investing His chosen head Apostle. The primary OT reference for Mat. 16 is Isaiah 22:15-22. It is about one Son of David deposing one prime minister & empowering another.
@VictorLepanto Have you ever read Augustine's "On the Predestination of the Saints"? You are correct, though, in that he was not a Calvinist, as Calvin was not around yet. Calvin was more a follower of Augustine's teachings
@dgb0000001: Calvin was no more of a follower of St. Augustine then St. Augustine was a follower of Calvin. St. Augustine was a bishop the Catholic Church. He believed in the real presence. I really am at a loss to try to help you w/ the gross anachronism in your making such an assertion. Literally no one in the whole Earth ever believed in anything like what Calvin taught, until...Calvin. Islam's harsh fatalism somewhat resembles it, aleast in the Moslem's holding that Go makes men sin.
@dgb0000001: Talk to me after you read The Confessions, & The City of God. It is absurd. You read only the select bits of St. Augustine that are convenient to your preconceptions & just ignore the vast, larger substance that show how absurd your selective reading truly is. No one heard of Calvinism or Calvinistic ideas until the 16th cent. The Jews knew nothing of it. The Bible knows nothing of it. The Early Church Fathers knew nothing of it. St. Augustine certainly never heard of it.
@VictorLepanto Ur a Catholic firstly therefore, U must believe what they tell you to believe in so to be in their good graces? I don't know U, personally and not desiring to insult nor anger U but, the Catholic Church is as corrupt as it gets! Why do U think there was a "REFORMATION" in the first place? Catholicism teaches justification by WORKS! So that nullifies them, if nothing else did. But, I will tell you that they just so happen to be correct per the 'free-will' thingy.
Catholicism teaches Free-Willism as you teach. In fact this is very thing that the Reformation sought to eradicate. Your teaching the very basic doctrines of Papal Rome.
@margovallen: Thank you for including me in your conversation. It is good to see the old spirit of the "Reformation," in all its quarrelsomeness continues. I beleived much as you back when I was still going through my Pentacostal phase. But then I learned a little real Church history, & more of the Bible as well.
Is the RCC more corrupt then hte variious churchs that are now pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage & the whole litany of Modern corruption?
Dark powers caressing my mind. In my unveiling, a body of shade. My heart, his infernal tongue. Blasphemous rituals lead the way to Lucifer. We adore the work of the devil. On a path of evil incarnation. He is below and above you. His life is ecstasy in yours. Under the inverted cross of the lord. See your soul in a black dimension. Pray to the weak god of infinity. Your pallid prayers are forgotten. You are the stranger to our champion. I lead you to the throne of Old Nick.
Has anyone considered that if Christ died for the sins of the entire world, that this would mean that He died for even those who are not His? What I mean is, that possibly, this would mean that His efficacy would be deminished. If He indeed died for the entire human race as the Arminians believe, that would mean that the entire world would indeed be saved and noone would be lost. Can someone help me here?
@FirebrandNIRE I think a point that people get tripped up on is sin. As if it is a specific amount that He bore and why would he bear the sins of those who he knew wouldnt choose him. From what I read its not an amount but a position. We are not sinners because we sin but we sin because we are sinners. The problem is the root. The seed of adam. Hence all the verses of new life, new creation, put off old man, grafted into the Vine...ect.
Rev Angus did not answer the question, I see what he's saying but it doesn't add up, why would God even speak to the people about choice if they are predestined to Hell or Heaven, were elect and not elect. Rev Angus said it himself that God does what he pleases and if he pleases he does if not he doesn't do, so God would not speak about choice if choice was not available(free will). God knowing what you will choose and working you to that is not predestination,it's foreknowledge.
But surely Christ died for all humanity, who have the ability to accept Christ, but God, being sovereign and all knowing, knows who will accept Christ, and cannot be wrong. Whether a person rejects God because he was predestined to do so or because it is of his own free will, he has still rejected God from his own heart. I just thank God that I am saved through His grace alone :D
Was your believing the product of God's Grace and intervention upon your soul, raising you from spiritual death to believe in Christ or was it your own Human Will? The two are totally incompatible with each other.
@FirebrandNIRE Amen! Arminianism is nothing but revised Judaism,and follows the same dictates of every false religion since the beginning of time! My pathetic will dictates THE WILL OF ALMIGHTY GOD, INSTEAD OF THE WILL OF ALMIGHTY GOD RIGHTFULLY OMNIPOTANT-TATING me! We seem to forget what got the anointed cherub Lucifer himself cast out of Heaven! When he had the Audacity to say "I will" to ALMIGHTY GOD! Such a sad Self-Righteous Delusion is the spirit of Arminianism indeed!
Is God total sovereign over all? I believe that God gave humans choice and therefore God is not totally sovereign in the sense that he makes the choice of who is or is not "saved". God is sovereign in the process and it is God's process of salvation. Humans are free to chose if they want to be God's child or they want to live on their own. God does attached all but some don't come out of their own choice.
If God is not Sovereign over all things he is not Sovereign at all. God can't be 99% Sovereign. Yes humans are Free to Choose, but will always choose evil because his nature is wicked from birth, he knows nothing else, unless Grace intervenes and gives man the ability to believe. That called Grace.
If you believe (If you had the ability thats is apart from God to believe .Which you don't) that would be called Works and not grace.
@FirebrandNIRE God can and did create the humans with a will to choose. God has set up this world with choices. So God is 100% sovereign in the context of Choice. Definition of Sovereign having supreme rank, power, or authority. Even the most wicked of Earthy sovereign's give choice to people. We choose to become God's child by accepting the gift of Jesus. People can choose good for selfish reason which God would find evil but the choice is still "good" . John 6:27 Jesus tell them to work
@FirebrandNIRE How about John 1:12. God comes to us but we have to Receive him. John 1:39 - Jesus asks them to Come and See , they choose to follow. John4:15 the woman ask for the everlasting water - Jesus told her of special water his HS and she asks for it - choice. Did Jesus show her Grace? Absolutely but she had to ask to get it. John6:28 the crowd wanted to get the "everlasting bread" how Choose to believe in Jesus - the one who is sent. John9:6 the blind man chooses to wash.
8:00 he says God wan't you to avoid Evil, WAIT, if your going to heaven already, you already don't partake in evil, cause your God's chosen one. WAIT, so then if you DO NOT avoid evil, THEN you can go to HELL??? BUSTED REV ANGUS COW!!
At least the Arminian treats us all like believers. I've come across too many people who have called Calvinists satanic and pagans. It sickens me when I see so many bullets flying out of hatred in these arguments. Hold the sword against your brethren to learn how to use it better not to take them down.
I do not understand the Calvinist point of view. It seems that view is saying it does not matter what you do , if you are not chosen you are going to hell , and if you are chosen no matter what you do, be a jerk kick puppy you are going to be saved .
For anyone who may be searching for a biblical understanding of the gospel and salvation, I would highly recommend checking out the scribd website that is listed on my channel.
The ways of God are far from our understanding. Take for instance, God sends Moses to speak to Pharoah to let His people go, but tells Moses at the same time that He will harden Pharoah's heart so that he will not let them go. Pharoah has no choice in the matter, God has determined to show his wrath and hardens who He will because All is His and He can do as He pleases and who can question Him. Know that God is good and men are evil, God is not sometimes evil and men are not sometimes good.
there is not a drop of evidence that hell is eternal and if you think so then by all mean send my a message and I will gladly refute your argument : )
im interested why someone would call themselves a Calvinist or an Arminianist and not a Christian, if their beliefs are based on the Bible and the Bible alone. Cults do that, "i'm a mormon", "i'm a seventh day adventist", "i'm a Jehovah's witness". Wjy no-one says "i'm a Christian"?
Just an answer to your question. Because Christianity, which is the belief of Jesus Christ according to the Bible, has been divided into different views and doctrines. And those differences are named according to what view they believe in. Calvinism believes in a different doctrine that is very opposite to Arminianism.
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort Christianity is a religion. Calvinism and Arminianism are Christian soteriologies. In addition, the Seventh Day Adventist church is not a cult.
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort That's not cult worthy. Arminians and Calvinists differ on soteriology as well. Neither is regarded as a cult. Mormons and JWs are regarded as cults because they deny the deity of Jesus. The primary reason Mormonism and JWs are considered a cult is their teaching regarding Jesus, they say he is a god, not THE God. If cults were determined solely by holding false doctrines, every church would be a cult.
@StormTrek It's foundational, because it makes Jesus into a liar, when He said "It is finished".
Moving on, Ellen said that God's throne was in Orion, which is where the Egyptians said Osiris god fo the dead resided, and in fact the egyptian pyramids of giza were lined up with Orion and Sirius for this reason. Heaven's gate suicide cult worshipped Orion too. Ellen used freemason language like "All-seeing eye", "great architect", because freemasonry is based on Egyptian mystery religion.
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort Does SDA church doctrine regard Ellen as an authority equal to or greater than the bible? If not, there's no foundation to classify the SDA church as a cult based on Ellen's ideas. In fact, the early Christian church was prone to following false prophets as evidenced by the need to be corrected by the Apostle Paul in his epistles. Thus, you are simply demonstrating that the SDA is foolish for entertaining a false prophetess, but you haven't demonstrated cult status.
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort "We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White function as the foundation and final authority of Christian faith as does Scripture." SDA General Conference 1982
Thus, the objective evidence is that they are not a cult. Your opinion that Ellen is their authority "in pactice" is subjective opinion, hence, inadequate to demonstrate the SDA is a cult.
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort "We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are an addition to the canon of Sacred Scripture." SDA General Conference 1982
Well, the SDA denies your assertion. Can you prove they added Ellen's words to the cannon?
@StormTrek Yes i can. It's on this documentary, and they show you the exact verses where they have added the freemasonic 1844 nonsense to the Word of God. -
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort I didn't see the additions in that video. However, I did see that the video says Ellen "founded" the SDA which contradicts Wikipedia's article on the history of the SDA. The SDA foolishly says Ellen was a prophet when the evidence demonstrates otherwise. Great, don't waste time attending a SDA church. But you haven't evidenced that it is a cult.
@StormTrek Well that was part 1, i seem to recall it was on one of the parts towards the end. It's a white Bible with a rainbow cover, and they add Ellen's words to the book of Daniel. i do not lie, brother.
But i don't fight. God Himself sends the strong delusions and no-one can outsmart God. Even me, If God has appointed me to strong delusion, i would not see the Truth, even if you presented it straight to my face. Terrifying when you think about it.
@StormTrek i could use my time to prive that SDA is a cult. And maybe i would win the argument, or maybe you would win the argument. But this life is so short. i would rather spend my time seeking out the lost and the fatherless. That's what i'm doing now. Armeniasm vs Calvinism, how LOVELESS a discussion lol God loves FRUIT! We should be majoring on fruit of the spirit. Showing such love and mercy to unbelievers. PROVING Jesus Christ & love of God to them. James 1:27 is pure religion.
@StormTrek James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
i've been thinking lately, that many of us Chrsitians (including myself) tend to get bogged down in loveless academia to try and justify our own lack of fruit. Because love is too much of an obligation. We'd rather argue, than actually love lol
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort I believe you're right. If one spends his time trying to kick people out of Christianity he's probably not spending enough time caring for the sick and poor (or performing other fruits of the spirit). It's good to learn and teach accurate doctrine. But I promise you that the devil is always looking to turn Christian against Christian, and he'll leverage the silliest reasons to do it.
Is all of Calvinism simply to assure believers that they cannot be lost? And this being based on the Sovereignty of God to make them feel better? Just curious because that is where Calvinists seem to go so quickly.
No, the presenter wasn't silly to use that verse from Letiviticus. He was illustrating that, just as mankind had a choice in the Graden of Eden, so it is throughout Biblical history - to the present day. It's simple: every individual born into this world has a choice - either to follow good or evil. I believe that Calvinism is a curse in Ireland today. I see people living in sin, who once walked with the Lord. These people are under the illusion that they are secure. I pray for them.
Am I the only who thot da presenter was silly in using that verse in leviticus to question the reformed pastor's position on God's sovereign grace and election??
Yemi clearly doesnt seem to understand that God had covenant of works in the OT and covenant of grace in the NT
Which came first God's Spirit substance or His moral Virtues? For example, His goodness, truth, mercy, love, etc. They are simultaneous of course! God's substance did not come and later His Virtues.God's self existing Life therefore is contingent on His being perpetual Virtue non suspended in self existing Life.Therefore free will is impossible because all free will suspends God's Nature.
Hilarious to me the fanaticism that occasions the study of a tome that can spawn tens of thousands of flavors of "Christian." Calvinists, as well as Arminians, will claim the other's best verses for "contextual" reasons where, in any other book, they would merely be considered contradictory. The flexibility of the text should undermine its validity.
lacan1799 2 weeks ago
There is the Problem with your Theology!!!
OPEN YOUR EYES
"with the hope of drawing us to salvation." Are you serious??
Christ came with the hope of drawing us to salvation??
Conversation is terminated until you understand the basics of Salvation
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
It is a difficult task to attempt to understand the concept on salvation. Much is a mystery to the human mind. We do know which what has been said by others here that salvation alone comes from Christ and the shedding of his blood as atonement for sins. We as christians must remember that it is nothing in ourselves that saves us, the bible says we are dead in our sins (this is why Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again spiritually). Therefore if were dead we cannot save ourself.
aac81683 1 month ago
It seems the host is not sitting on the fence, but supporting Arminianism? Typical!!!!
youneededucating 1 month ago
They might as well said "Biblical Vs. Arminianism
lowbattery34 1 month ago
@lowbattery34 hehe. TULIP FOR THE WIN BABY
bammc19 1 month ago
@bammc19 TULIPs or LILIEs.. or even, DAFODILs... make for a nice burial 'dressing' for the deceased.
But, none of which.. are worthy (nor accurate) of being 'rooted' (literally or metaphorically) for the em-betterment of any (SPIRITUAL) life :-)
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovenvallen Rev 3:20, context context context It's not speaking to unbelievers nor offering salvation. In Rev 3:14 tells you whom is being spoken too "angels of the church" i.e. Believers
ElDemonioTribute 3 months ago
@ElDemonioTribute Totally inaccurate! It's speaking to the Laodicean Church.. as they were lukewarm and devoid of faith.. didn't even know they were wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked.. always sitting neutral or indifferent in matters of faith. They were grossly over-confident in their 'religion'.. and were totally unaware they were 'bankrupt' per their spiritual 'wealth.'
Context context context.
margovallen 1 month ago
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To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
motibi 5 months ago
@motibi To agnostics : "To doubt, is to not believe.. therefore, so-called "agnostics" are indeed atheists in denial."
To atheists : "It takes just as much FAITH to disbelieve a TRUTH.. as it does to believe. You already have faith, just the wrong direction and application, thereof."
margovallen 1 month ago
If you read the Bible, in the context of, Romans 9, then you will begin to understand. What man does not understand, is, God is the Creater, he is the creation. Its His will, His plan, His pleasure.(Isa 46:10) God does not owe man anything. God is absolutely terrifying. No one can obey, but God still commands, anyway. In Romans 9:19, it says, why does He yet find fault? for who has resisted His will? What do you think is being taught there? You mean, you made this way, and now your blaming me?
torvasal1 5 months ago
This debate is a classic.I suggest everyone to watch all parts of this debate in its entirety!!! This is what made me accept the calvinist belief and reject arminianism.It took me 3 times watching it to make me give up arminianism.Worth every bit of it!!!!! PLease watch it!!!!
ctsfinestjon 5 months ago 2
Read Confessions already, I'll read "The City of God" once I get the time and the book. As for your allegation that the Bible knows nothing of Calvinism, which is the only serious charge that you have alleged, I present Proverbs 21:4, Psalm 73:18, Isaiah 10:15, Amos 3:6, John 10:26, Matthew 25:34, Revelation 17:8, Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 2:5, Acts 4:28, Romans 9:16-23, just to name a few. Read them in their context, not just the individual verses.
dgb0000001 6 months ago
One question; what about people who desire to believe in Jesus Christ (His message and all pertaining to Him) badly, hating their lack of unbelief/unstable certitude; just hoping that God would shower upon his/her crys with the love of Christ, and reward him/her with that longed for certainity ?
So, according to the previous written statement, would it be safe to assume they're part of the elect? Or would it be safe to assume calvinism, in itself, is a falsehood of satan?
RealEros1 6 months ago
I guess Calvinism is a very hard thing to accept because no one wants other people to go to hell. But when I read Romans 9 that expressly outlines the sovereignty of God I feel fairly confident that predestination is not a heretical and foolish doctrine. Also Ephesions 1: 11-14 which points out that we were chosen and predestined according to God's plan. Of course Calvinism probably does have some things wrong but what denomination doesn't? So Overall I think we have a lot of scriptural support.
licnep22 7 months ago
God gives us free will to choose. He calls ALL.. and whomever yields to that call, He elects. Salvation is indeed by GRACE ALONE.. by FAITH in Jesus Christ ALONE.. who died for ALL. It's a GIFT of GOD... NOT OF WORKS.. and it is ETERNAL. Jesus stands at the door of our hearts and He knocks... and we choose to either open the door and invite Him in.. or ignore Him.
Both sides carry valid points :-)
margovallen 7 months ago
@margovallen "Jesus stands at the door and knocks." You know what this is saying ? God himself is pleading to come inside your heart. Really now, God who is sovereign is pleading to come inside your heart ? Is God sovereign if you can refuse his plead ?
Give me the scripture to back you up, and I'll show you the real context of the scripture when it says "ALL". If YOU are the one who chooses to open the door for God, it is YOU who saved yourself. God is pleading to save you, but He can't.
rainbowcicak 3 months ago
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@rainbowcicak Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and KNOCK: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Doesn't this passage of scripture suggest CHOICE and other actions on the part of man?
margovallen 3 months ago
@rainbowcicak God is Sovereign no matter what. Please don't try to make sense of what may to U, seem an 'oxymoron' as Gods thoughts and ways are not like our thought and ways. Yet, another reason we must take things per God and His Word by Faith. My giving U scripture to "back me up" would not do any good.. since ur evidently, doing ur interpretations of Gods Word via ur own (very lacking and oh so limited) intellect.
Give you scriptures so you can show me the real context.. LOL!
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
Christ Pleads with No One! He either Saves or Destroys. If He saves its because of His Grace He does so.
God is indebted to No Man.
FirebrandNIRE 3 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE Has nothing to do with Him being indebted to anyone. Christ knows whats best for us.. but, we have to want it for ourselves.. God does not force. He made the offering.. but, we must choose to accept or reject.
margovallen 3 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE John Calvin = Heretic.
margovallen 3 months ago
@margovallen
John Calvin = Heretic = PROVE IT
FirebrandNIRE 3 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE He taught limited atonement.. where the Bible teaches Universal atonement. He also taught infant baptism. Taught necessity of sacraments (water baptism) for salvation.. baptismal regeneration.
Plus, he was a tyrant... having people killed whom disagreed with his heretical doctrine.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen Not very Christ like
bammc19 1 month ago
@bammc19 Not sure what you're referring to.. but, do you really know what "Christ-like" is? He surely was not the soft-spoken meek individual, that the seems to be the buzz going around per the description of His demeanor. He was a radical in every way. He talked smack to the Pharisees and got into peoples faces, if provoked.
Jesus Christ was no mealy-mouthed wimp! Kinda like me :-)
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen sorry there is absolutely no free will in salvation at all that is an excuse for man to get some glory over God himself! When God almighty calls his elect it is undoubtedly irresistible! So take away your pride and boasting and realize that God himself deserves the glory not us! God bless fellow brother!
ghosthunter5656 2 months ago
@ghosthunter5656 Firstly, know whom your talking to... I'm nobodies 'brother.' Secondly, you, my friend.. are the one mistaken. Salvation (the gift of Grace) is offered to all. Jesus died for ALL.. not just some 'elect' few. Its about our choices in life. God is not going to save those of whom don't desire salvation or think they don't need salvation.
I can offer you a gift.. but, it's up to you to accept and receive it in order to have it.
John Calvin = heretic.
margovallen 2 months ago
I'm nobodies brother? Nice attitude towards a 'brother in Christ'. Read your bible and you will understand that Christians are the family of God. Colossians 1:2 To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ. Your emotions are more involved in your argument that the Scriptures.
youneededucating 1 month ago
@youneededucating What.. you can't read? I AM NOBODIES BROTHER! Being that I am a woman, that would make me your sister in Christ, yes?
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen and precisely how would anybody know that you are a woman from your posts? duh!! also, brother in the Bible does not necessarily mean a male, but a term meaning family of God. Just like mankind does not just apply to men. Use some common sense please and if you really do insist on replying, don't put stupid comments like "what...you can't read?" Saying this could just mean that you are not a Christian, not that you are a woman.
youneededucating 1 week ago
@youneededucating Well, women speak differently than men, first of all. Secondly,if a person had a brain-cell to call their own, they might either loo at the name "Margo".. and do the math... or consider gazing at one's profile and viewing the pic. Take your pick!
"Brother" is for a man. "Brethren" means both members of the body of Christ. "Mankind" means human-kind.. men and women.
This issue here is "brother" and I am a female.. and nobodies brother but, sister in Christ.
margovallen 1 week ago
(Cont) Spin it anyway you'd like... as many "men" surely have no qualms in doing that... but, what I'm saying here is factual.. and you're grasping at a dried up straw.
Take your ass-whipping like a man.. if thats what you are.. and move along! :-)
margovallen 1 week ago
@margovallen So, if Jesus did die for all, why are people still going to hell? If he died for all people then His grace should cover all, and all should go to heaven or you believe that his sacrifice on the cross somehow didn't accomplish its mission. We cannot choose a perfect, holy God because we are so terribly sinful. He is sovereign in the fact that WE ALL DESERVE HELL and he owes us nothing yet He chooses to save some. That's an amazing thing. TULIP FTW BABY!
bammc19 1 month ago
@bammc19 Calvinism is backward and causes lots of confusion to a simple plan. Christ died for ALL. Thats Universal Reconciliation aka 'putting man into the position to be saved.' The Gift of Grace had been offered to ALL and the plan was lay out for all to see. God gave man a soul, a brain, reasoning-skills, eyes, ears, informed choices and free-will to make those choices. Souls are in Hell because of their choices. People chose to reject Christ and His Divine Grace.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
Man chooses Hell? Could you explain this?
Man can neither choose or evil by choice, he can only act upon this evil always because by birth he was born into the abyss of Sin, his nature is wickedness and evil and God rejecting, his whole blueprint is evil continually and he knows nothings else.
Therefore he does NOT choose Christ because he cannot, seeing he is dead in sin, and he chooses NOT Sin because he is Sin Already.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE What? Man doesn't know right from wrong, good from evil? So, when God said "let us make man in our image".. did you think that God was plainly speaking about how man should look? Not hardly! "Our image" would be the images of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit both, aesthetically (looks).. and mental/spiritual demeanor. Since the Fall of man, we are depraved spiritually but, not mentally! "Believing" is a choice and starts in the brain and moves into the heart.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
If you would sit back a bit only listen to your illogical nonsense.
If man can choose good and evil in the way you suppose and that he is no way mentally affected by Sin then "HE WOULD NOT CHOOSE HELL"
BECAUSE no-one in their RIGHT MENTAL THINKING MIND WOULD CHOOSE TO BURN IN HELL.. please please listen to some sense .
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
"Speak reason to a fool and to him, it is foolish." So, it is only "illogical" to the illogical.. or illogically-minded. I need not "sit back and listen" to anything I've said. I'm the one that said it. Did you think I was just plainly making it us as I went along? You probably do.You believe that man cannot choose whether he would like to spend eternity in Heaven, should it be explained Biblicall. vs spend eternity in Hell, should it be explained Biblically? Man is that depraved?
margovallen 1 month ago
Please listen to some sense? I have been.. in the form of the Holy Spirit. You're surely not insinuating I must listen to you, are you? I cannot hear anything from you, that you haven't got.So, yes! God tells us how to become saved from an eternity of damnation. So, if an individual hears.. and doesn't do what God says to do to be saved, that individual has chosen Hell.
margovallen 1 month ago
(cont) If you're a professional base-ball pitcher and you know the rules say "no grease-balls" and tells you of the consequences.. yet, you did it anyway. You chose the consequences.
Thats as simple I can make it for you.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
Yet another ridiculous humanistic analogy.
Man is already paying the consequences. The rules to which you apply were broken at the fall. Your trying to make this apply to today. Man already forfeited his right to reign in God's kingdom and instead brought in the reign of Sin and misery.
Its only now through GRACE that God turned to man in his mercy.
Growing really tried of this Arminian Hersey.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE I'm sorry! Are you something other than human? It seems you're a Simpleton.. hence, the baseball analogy. It's ridiculous to you because, you're ridiculous. I know what man was then and what man is today. John Calvin was just a plain human-being. With all of his stain from original sin and sins he'd done himself.. good, bad, ugly just like the rest of us.
You're a follower of John Calvin. Not Jesus Christ.
Get saved by the blood of Christ.. Calvin cannot save you.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
God also tells us to be perfect as he is perfect. Are you perfect??
If you are not why then would God require this? Especially if God knows that he are not and cannot be perfect.
Please answer
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE Spiritually, YES! I am spiritually perfect. In fact, the moment I was saved, the Righteousness of Christ was imputed to me.. and He is a veil over me.. and when God, the Father looks at me, He is looking through Christ.. therefore, sees perfection :-)
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
Did you earn that righteousness by your own free will decisionism? or was it given by God's 'FREE' electing Grace?
If it was given by Grace alone, then your free-will nonsense falls flat on its miserable face.
The perfection that God demands is the complete Law, not mere human attaining of perfection.
Yes Christ's righteousness covers our unrighteousness, but that does not cause us not to sin, as John said" If you say you have no sin you are a liar."
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE IMPOSSIBLE! We cannot "work for" or in any way "earn" anything to do with our Eternal Salvation. God commands us to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved!" Belief is a choice. Personally, I really don't look at and see any sort of "work" but, its what we must do to be saved. Salvation is a gift of God.. not of ourselves, lest anyone boast. Nothing I've stated has fallen flat anywhere. Grace is offered. We must receive it through Faith alone.
margovallen 1 month ago
(cont) The perfection that God demand is the complete Law? My friend, we are no longer under the curse of the Law... but, under Grace. Whatever "perfection" God 'demands"... HE PROVIDES! Jesus lived by the Law perfectly for us. He works any perfection in us that we will ever have. If you're suggesting that somehow we are to do something to somehow 'enhance' our own perfection, you're sadly mistaken. How does one improve on perfection?
God does the saving.. and ALL OF IT!
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
I'm totally convinced that your knowledge of the Scriptures is very poor.
God demands complete perfection of his subjects because he is God he cannot demand anything less that perfection, complete perfection! Being under the law or under Grace is not the issue at hand here, so don't fudge the issue. Your really missing the point here.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE Whatever! Another of your jabs to get all the attention off of yourself and your own vast deficiencies? Not working here! I am quite well-versed in the Word of God and you know that to be true. You're not fooling me. You've pulled one weak defense (sometimes in the form of a weak offense) after another trying to prove your weak and corrupt doctrine. Again, don't utilize yourself as any sort of "standard" per anything to do with the scriptures to be measured by.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
If you believe Salvation is all of God (umm.. Do You?)
And yes it is ALL OF GOD, then that includes everything included in that Grace..
Yes / No?
If yes, then that included the enabling to believe the Gospel, that is called the Gift Of Faith, then Regeneration .
THIS IS BASIC
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE God is the one whom does all the saving. He save us.. we do not (cannot) save ourselves. God gave us a brain (well??? He gave me a brain.. lol).. and since we choose to believe (or disbelieve both of which, are by Faith.. since we've not actually 'seen' either way) Yes, I believe by Faith.
I am saved and God did all the saving.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
The Faith to beleive is a Gift and that Gift has to be given in order that we may believe.
EPH 2:1 And you who were DEAD IN TRESPASSES and IN SIN, you hath HE Quickened.
Without this quickening you cannot believe, either that nor this passage is False
You can't have it the other way round.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE
btw the Greek word For dead is 'nekrous' it means a CORPSE, please tell me how a CORPSE can believe in anything seeing it is dead AS WE WERE before GOD Quickened US to believe.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
(cont) Not only am I well verse in the Word of God, I have a major advantage because I am saved and the Holy Spirit leads me in my study and interpretation of the Word of God. Evidently, unlike yourself.
Like I stated, any and all perfection in us, He does. If He expects anything more, He provides it! It's really ALL ABOUT HIM in lieu of all about us. A simple and true concept you seem to be vastly unfamiliar with. It has EVERYTHING to do with being or not, under the Law vs Grace.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
The Spirit leads into truth, not the Heretical Doctrines Of Rome, that is Free Willism.
You really should educate yourself in Rome's Hatred of the Sovereign Doctrines Of Grace in Election, they are one and the same as yours. Prove me Wrong...
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE Firstly, U are an EXTREMIST in that, if you're looking at a person and see they are not perfect.. they must be a freaking serial-killer. My KNOWLEDGE of Gods Word is not based on anything but Gods Word and in the leadership/guidance of the Holy Spirit. Being that the doctrine of Free-Will just so happen to be the teachings of the Catholics is merely incidental. A COMMON-GROUND between the Catholics and Reformations. Not every doctrine of the Catholic Faith is false.
margovallen 1 month ago
(cont) One more thing : I never said anything about "Christs righteousness covers our unrighteousness".. what I did say was "Christs Righteousness is imputed to us!" Meaning, we are indeed Righteous in Him. Its as though we've never sinned at all, in the eyes of God. He makes us perfect! Not 'as though' we are perfect. There is no such thing as the "mere human attaining of perfection", nothing God does is "mere." Nobody can live by the Law perfectly. Hence, Jesus Christ given to us.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
Yet again you misconstrued what I just said.
Please listen: If your believing apart from God's Sovereign is the vehicle for God to save you, then that becomes works Righteousness. Thats what you believe right? yes Or No?
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE No, I did not misconstrue anything. You're just spinning what I do say, because I am not giving you exactly the words you wanna hear.. the way you wanna hear them.
In Gods Sovereignty, He still gives if Free-will to make informed decisions. You see that as impossible and contradictory.. while I see it as the fact that his thoughts and ways are not like our thought and ways.
Its not Works-Righteousness.. no such thing. Nor Works-Salvation. no such thing.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
Cut the nonsense,you keep jumping about and avoiding any questions.
It's quite puerile and not adult.
Again please show me from God;s Word How a dead man can believe in Gospel Prior to Regeneration Of The Spirit, that is being quickened by the Spirit Eph.2:1
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@margovallen
Please show me in Scripture where Grace is Offered. And Please show me where Grace is received by Faith. Please show.
My Bible tells me that Grace is an attribute of God and through that Grace he gives us the Gift Faith to believe in Him , not the other way around
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE If you're seeking exact words, forget it. But, heres one that suggests His offered Grace : John 3:16-18
Grace received through faith : Eph2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith;"
Heres one that says He died for ALL : Hebrews 2:9 - But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for *every man*.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen Your making absolutely no sense right now, therefore I cannot respond because as I would end up even more confused by your stubborn remarks and ridiculous attempts to promote the Doctrines of Rome's Free Willism rather than embrace the Doctrines of Graces.
You can not combine Rome's Graceless Free-Willism With the Lord's Doctrines of Grace
Your making no sense.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE What you seem to be missing is the fact that, you're trying to 'reason' out the scriptures by utilizing your own intellect.. somehow thinking you're some sort of 'standard' by which all reasoning should be judged. If thats not pompously arrogant, nothing is. Gods ways aren't our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. To the Simpleton, one cannot coincide Sovereignty and Grace with Free-Will and choice.
Seems oxymoronic.. but, it exists just the very same :-)
margovallen 1 month ago
(cont) Also, if I say something that you feel is stupid, why don't you just """correct""" me and move along without tossing your little-boy asinine insults at me. I already know you're a desperate individual, theres no need to try an prove that to me by your superiority-delusions.
I know that you don't know what you're talking about. I think YOU need to recognize that fact, in so to not remain ignorant.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
I don't know what I'm talking about? Is this according to your Superior Supernatural Knowledge of all things? WOW thats just plain arrogant If I do say so.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE I never said anything suggesting I am all-knowing. There you go again, little-boy. Show your ass to the world. Dr. Spin! You became obnoxious and annoying about 4-5 hours ago today.
You're just super-prideful and hate it when you've been whipped.. especially by a woman. Without admitting you have a serious problem, how can the healing begin?
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
Which part of the Doctrines of Grace don't you comprehend?
Because you still insist upon Rome's doctrines of Free Willism.
Rather, what is your understanding of what God's Grace is?
If you don't understand this Biblical concept then, continuing this dialogue is futile.
If your God's Plan of Salvation is dependent upon out human decisions that plan will fail at the first hurdle, and is therefore not of Grace but rather human decision making.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE I understand fully, the doctrine of Grace. John Calvin surely did not write it. He just spinned it.
margovallen 1 month ago
Spinned = spun
margovallen 1 month ago
(cont) How many times must I reiterate the fact(s) that 'we hear the Gospel.. and the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart (instigation attempt, to draw us forwardly).. and we choose to yield to the Spirit or we choose ignore it. We have the God-given free-will to choose where we would like to spend Eternity. Man is NOT "sin, already".. man sins, man is sinful. Christ, on the other hand.. became sin when on the Cross. Mans blue-print is NOT 'evil continuously.' Mans blue-print is of God.
margovallen 1 month ago
(cont) Man is 'stained' from the original sin of Adam. God made man perfectly! Adam had free-will to do whatever he chose to do, when he chose to do it. Thats the blue-print of man. God told Adam not to partake of the Tree of Knowledge. He chose to disobey. If he didn't have a choice, would God have given him the ability to choose? God didn't make Adam a mind-less drone. He gave him a sense of reason in so to be able to make decisions via choice. We are all made that very same way.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
The original image of God in man obliterated for all mankind at the fall, when at that time man HAD FREE WILL (Of Sorts), That image of God is only through the work of sanctification being renewed through Christ, and never perfectly completed in this life until we get to heaven, THEN ONLY THEN WILL WE BE LIKE HIM.
Man can never choose Christ unless GOD The FATHER first draws him, Man knows only evil and eschews all that is Spiritual because of his original sin condition.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE Inaccurate! The original image of God in man was not obliterated. Man can destroy the image of God? NO! God is God and man is man. God created man.. not the other way around. God created man exactly as He desired to create man.. and for His own good pleasure. While God created man in His own image in the ways I've already mentioned, it was the 'image' not an exact replica. Man can sin and be effected. God cannot sin.
margovallen 1 month ago
(cont) Didn't I already mention (several times) that man hears the Gospel and the Holy Spirit speaks to man heart in the effort of leading him unto salvation? There is no "sort of" about it! God gave Adam free-will to choose.. just as He has given it to all human-beings. After the Fall, not everything per man was destroyed.
Adam died spiritually... and yes, eventually he died physically. Both of which, were a direct result of his disobedience.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
Man lost his Free Will at the fall, and even then look what he choose he choose Evil though the temptation of Satan, So HOW much more will he choose evil seeing in is born into a sinful body full of putrefying sores??
Your not getting this at all!!
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE Man did not lose his free-will at the fall. Man lost his authority and dominion over the Earth and everything on it. Actually, he gave it away.. handed it to satan when he disobeyed God. Adam was created spiritually alive but, became spiritually dead via disobedience. Did he lose his ability to think and reason? He didn't lose his ability to multiply the Earth. Did he lose his ability to see and/or hear? Did he lose his ability to love Eve?
NO to all of the above.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
I seriously think that you intentionally refuse to listen to reason. Your ears are closed.
If the image of God remained then Christ's death was in vain, and the work of sanctification would be needless. God would just require us to be obedient and believe in him and all will be well.
But man through the fall became the image of his father the devil. If you can't see man in his awful putrid state then you fail to see the Work of God's redemption to rid his people of Sin.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE My ears aren't closed.. just that, my BS filters are working well. Just hope they don't burn-out from being overly used, talking to you.. haha!
margovallen 1 month ago
if you actually study the bible, rather than speaking from your emotions yet again, you will see that the word 'All' does not mean every single person. For example, John 12:19 The Whole World has gone after Him!. Did the pharisees really mean the whole world, knowing themselves and others did not follow Jesus' teachings and claims.
youneededucating 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I just posted the following at margavallen in response to something he said to you........
"I'm nobodies brother?" Nice attitude towards a 'brother in Christ'. Read your bible and you will understand that Christians are the family of God. Colossians 1:2 To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ. Your emotions are more involved in your argument that the Scriptures.
youneededucating 1 month ago
Comment removed
margovallen 1 month ago
Love ya Rev. Angus you are the best!
ghosthunter5656 2 months ago
@margovallen How can we choose? If we are SO INCREDIBLY sinful... which you should believe, or Christ wouldn't of had to come- then how could we possibly choose a perfect, holy, righteous God.
bammc19 1 month ago
@bammc19 We hear the Gospel, the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart. We yield to the Spirit or ignore it. If the Gospel is being correctly preached, theres going to be some talk about Hell-fire/brim-stone. Wouldn't U think a person who has received the correct
details of the Gospel could decide where he/she would like to spent eternity? Not too many are going to opt for Hell. Are we just so devoid spiritually that we've lost all capacity to think? We have free-will to make informed choices
margovallen 1 month ago
i am with paul washer on this issue..the issue is not calvinism or arminianism..the issue is regeneration. No matter what side you are on, do you believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ producing repentance from sin and fruit that bears HIS name? If you are going to spend your whole life in theological debate, then you are going to miss relationship with Christ. Read Matthew 7:16-20. There's where your answer lies.
drew30bebe 8 months ago
@drew30bebe Yes but, any and all regeneration done is on the part of God... it's His job to regenerate us.. to change us as He deems necessary. "Fruits" of the spirit may be outward, inward or both. We repent when we first come to Christ.. telling Him things about us that He already knows.. and He forgives us of our sins past, present and future.. at that time. His righteousness is IMPUTED onto us.. so, when God, the Father looks at us, He looks through Christ.. as He is a veil over us.
margovallen 7 months ago
@drew30bebe You're with Paul Washer.. yet, he is not correct, either. satan doesn't care which avenue we choose for him to deceive us. Just so he does. satan isn't about anything but, the end result of those of whom are lost. As for the saved, he likes to confuse and attack in various ways. Regeneration is the work of Christ and Him only.. and it transpires at the moment we believe on Him.
One doesn't "repent of ones sins." Biblical repentance is simply 'having a change of mind.'
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
Most Modern Day so-called Reformed Theologians are a complete farce, even I will admit to that
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE "Modern-Day" Reformation is not what the Bible teaches. I read and study the Bible and listen to those of whom do the very same thing. Neither Arminianism or Calvinism are totally correct. Some points of both are correct. Many present the Gospel 'sugar-coated' and 'watered-down' as to gain favoritism (from the people).. popularity (among the people) and wealth (at the expense of the people.. monetarily and spiritually).. never touching on the "vitals" of the Gospel.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
That sounds all very sweet and gooey, but doctrinally deficient.
The Gospel declares than Man is Dead in Sin, and God makes alive through 'Grace' displayed by Christ's atoning death, not because there is a little bit of good in man to make him believe. There is none Good NO NOT ONE. To be good in God estiamtion is to without Sin. Man has not the capacity to believe in Christ because Prior to his regeneration he IS DEAD. A CORPSE in biblical terms. THIS IS THE GOSPEL OF GRACE.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE Dead in sin means just that. Not crazy or mentally ill or physically ill. Its about the spirit.. man is spiritually dead. Believe has nothing to do with "having a little bit of good." Belief starts in the brain and moves to the heart. Man is not so depraved in all areas as Calvinism would like everybody to believe. There is still his reasoning skills. Well, I say that.. then after a dialogue with you, I start to wonder.. lol!
I side with the Arminians on this one!
margovallen 1 month ago
(cont) If we must believe by faith to be saved (made righteous, justified, regenerated, etc).. then how can we not believe until we have been regenerated?
Nobody would be saved then.
Belief comes first.. and we must have faith to to that. THEN we are saved, righteous, justified and regenerated.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
If your believe is generated by you and not God's 'Gift Of Faith' given to enable you to believe, then Salvation is not all of God, because YOU had part and lot in your own Salvation, but Christ Tells us us that this is not so.
This is Basic Theology , but because of your stubbornness you refuse to see this fact.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE My friend, you need a spiritual enema! You couldn't possibly have ears/eyes remotely considered in that of the spiritual.. as you cannot even seem to "read/comprehend/GRASP" things I've already shared with you.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
And again your stubbornness will only allow you to think that the human nature has any part or lot in Salvation.
I believe Salvation is totally all of God 'including the power to beleive'.
You prefer to be deluded into thinking that man has some sort of life and power to believe, whereas the Scripture declare us to be Spiritually Discerned and completely dead in Sin.
I prefer to trust the Scriptures on these issues and not human emotion or free thinking.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE What you deem as "stubbornness" ..I KNOW is a well-oiled optimally performing 'bull-shit-o-meter!' Being dead in sin.. unless that sin is praying to the devil and taking vast amounts of drugs.. LSD included... drinking like a fish.. and attempting suicide by a gun-shot to the head.. blowing away half our brain, only lived.. we are able to hear, comprehend and accept or reject.
Spiritually dead isn't brain-dead.
We have the free-will to make informed decisions.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
Again you claim that there is good in man to accompany Salvation.
There is None that Doth Good NO NOT ONE!! There is no good in man is a salvific sense
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@FirebrandNIRE The Word of God tells us that no one is good but, God. He's speaking spiritually. But, a person coming to the Lord is already saved therefore, God looks at and sees them as genuinely good? Or a person is lost and not deemed good in the eyes of God? And having the abilities to hear, think and reason have just nata to do with whether or not a person is good.You see, God is a selfish and jealous God. So, an unsaved moral person is not good in any way per God.
margovallen 1 month ago
(cont) It was that way with Adam pre/post Fall and its the very same today. God didn't punish Adam and Eve by taking away their brains or their sense of reason/understanding. He told them what not to do, they did it anyway AND died spiritually and were evicted from the Garden. If they'd could not reason, they'd not know why they were given the boot. They knew and they understood very well. The Holy Spirit SPEAKS TO OUR HEARTS with the hope of drawing us to salvation. COMPLICATE NOT!
margovallen 1 month ago
(cont) Repentance is going from the thought of not considering that we have sinned against God, that we are lost and hopeless hell-deserving sinners.... to realizing thats exactly whom/what we are.. and we turn to Christ. He makes,at that time.. the appropriate changes in us that saves us. We are made righteous, justified, regenerated, born-again, children of God.. and others. Those are un-seen fruits of the spirit. Christ does ALL the saving. Our job is to BELIEVE.
margovallen 1 month ago
(cont) The 'seen' fruits of the spirit in the born-again believer occur over time.. and IF at all. Some people never 'grow up' spiritually.. and may never display any fruits of the spirit... but, that doesn't make them any less saved. It makes them less 'blessed.'
Salvation is for receiving.. not giving. Many Christians never arrive at the place to 'conquer' certain habits or sins. All of that are rooted in their God-given free-will to choose to have a close walk or a distant walk.
margovallen 1 month ago
You can believe in Calvinism if you want to; as for me, as a Catholic free will is a basic dogma of the Church, so I have no choice, I have to believe in free will.
As for Calvin, it is just the greatest tragedy in Church history that St. Paul never had Calvin around to explain to him what he really meant. No one believed in any thing like Calvinism for 1500yrs. It is just insane to hold that every generation of Christians were wrong until he came along.
VictorLepanto 8 months ago
@VictorLepanto I enjoy what you have to say but I have to say that the RCC is very dogmatic about what you must believe. The preponderance of teaching I see on the YouTube is that they are the One True Church. Problem with this is that Jesus, not Peter, is the rock not hewn by hands. You can look in the Old Testament and find Christ referred to when they talk about this great rock. In every circumstance I am aware of, this refers to Christ. The RCC takes the definition and skews it to mean them.
courag1 8 months ago
@courag1: Why give an inspired inerrant Bible if we are just going to make up whatever suits us? Asserting something is true is all that is meant by "dogmatic." You go on about the supposed "dogmatism" the Church in one sentence, & then (w/o the slightest hint of the absurdity of it) you assert one of YOUR chosen dogmas. As for what is or isn't the "rock;" what you say is very interesting, but I prefer to listen to Jesus who said to St. Peter, "Thou art Peter..."
VictorLepanto 8 months ago
@VictorLepanto Get yourself a Strongs Concordance and do a word research for the word "rock" and follow it through scripture. The Bible is it's own best interpreter. Whatever is really important, is taught again and again. Jesus did not want his church deceived or confused. So it is best to make sure, instead of assuming that you are right, to prove to yourself you are right. If you find you were mistaken, you corrected yourself this side of eternity.
But addition to understanding is to pray.
courag1 8 months ago
@courag1: I've had a Strong's for about 20yrs now, & I'm familiar w/ the use of the rock in the Bible. It is primarily attributed to God. So for Jesus to use in reference to Simon bar Jonah is clear indication of the special authority He is investing His chosen head Apostle. The primary OT reference for Mat. 16 is Isaiah 22:15-22. It is about one Son of David deposing one prime minister & empowering another.
VictorLepanto 8 months ago
@VictorLepanto What about Augustine? Gotteschalk? Any of these names mean anything to you?
dgb0000001 6 months ago
@dgb0000001: What about Augustine? He was no Calvinist. It is absurd to try to read this idea back into early Church history.
VictorLepanto 6 months ago
@VictorLepanto Have you ever read Augustine's "On the Predestination of the Saints"? You are correct, though, in that he was not a Calvinist, as Calvin was not around yet. Calvin was more a follower of Augustine's teachings
dgb0000001 6 months ago
@dgb0000001: Calvin was no more of a follower of St. Augustine then St. Augustine was a follower of Calvin. St. Augustine was a bishop the Catholic Church. He believed in the real presence. I really am at a loss to try to help you w/ the gross anachronism in your making such an assertion. Literally no one in the whole Earth ever believed in anything like what Calvin taught, until...Calvin. Islam's harsh fatalism somewhat resembles it, aleast in the Moslem's holding that Go makes men sin.
VictorLepanto 6 months ago
@VictorLepanto Talk to me after you're finished reading "On the Predestination of the Saints".
dgb0000001 6 months ago
@dgb0000001: Talk to me after you read The Confessions, & The City of God. It is absurd. You read only the select bits of St. Augustine that are convenient to your preconceptions & just ignore the vast, larger substance that show how absurd your selective reading truly is. No one heard of Calvinism or Calvinistic ideas until the 16th cent. The Jews knew nothing of it. The Bible knows nothing of it. The Early Church Fathers knew nothing of it. St. Augustine certainly never heard of it.
VictorLepanto 6 months ago
@VictorLepanto Ur a Catholic firstly therefore, U must believe what they tell you to believe in so to be in their good graces? I don't know U, personally and not desiring to insult nor anger U but, the Catholic Church is as corrupt as it gets! Why do U think there was a "REFORMATION" in the first place? Catholicism teaches justification by WORKS! So that nullifies them, if nothing else did. But, I will tell you that they just so happen to be correct per the 'free-will' thingy.
margovallen 1 month ago
@margovallen
Catholicism teaches Free-Willism as you teach. In fact this is very thing that the Reformation sought to eradicate. Your teaching the very basic doctrines of Papal Rome.
FirebrandNIRE 1 month ago
@margovallen: Thank you for including me in your conversation. It is good to see the old spirit of the "Reformation," in all its quarrelsomeness continues. I beleived much as you back when I was still going through my Pentacostal phase. But then I learned a little real Church history, & more of the Bible as well.
Is the RCC more corrupt then hte variious churchs that are now pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage & the whole litany of Modern corruption?
VictorLepanto 1 month ago
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TheDarkLordLucifer 8 months ago
I was predestined not to believe in Calvinism.
zgerwitz 8 months ago
Has anyone considered that if Christ died for the sins of the entire world, that this would mean that He died for even those who are not His? What I mean is, that possibly, this would mean that His efficacy would be deminished. If He indeed died for the entire human race as the Arminians believe, that would mean that the entire world would indeed be saved and noone would be lost. Can someone help me here?
johe64 8 months ago
"the world" in john 3:16 does not mean every individual person. the world means jews and gentiles, men and woman. this in no way refutes calvinism
1993bret 8 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE I think a point that people get tripped up on is sin. As if it is a specific amount that He bore and why would he bear the sins of those who he knew wouldnt choose him. From what I read its not an amount but a position. We are not sinners because we sin but we sin because we are sinners. The problem is the root. The seed of adam. Hence all the verses of new life, new creation, put off old man, grafted into the Vine...ect.
UndergroundShow 9 months ago
Rev Angus did not answer the question, I see what he's saying but it doesn't add up, why would God even speak to the people about choice if they are predestined to Hell or Heaven, were elect and not elect. Rev Angus said it himself that God does what he pleases and if he pleases he does if not he doesn't do, so God would not speak about choice if choice was not available(free will). God knowing what you will choose and working you to that is not predestination,it's foreknowledge.
Shadowlooker12 9 months ago
But surely Christ died for all humanity, who have the ability to accept Christ, but God, being sovereign and all knowing, knows who will accept Christ, and cannot be wrong. Whether a person rejects God because he was predestined to do so or because it is of his own free will, he has still rejected God from his own heart. I just thank God that I am saved through His grace alone :D
RighteousRocker08 9 months ago
@RighteousRocker08
Was your believing the product of God's Grace and intervention upon your soul, raising you from spiritual death to believe in Christ or was it your own Human Will? The two are totally incompatible with each other.
One is biblical the other heretical.
FirebrandNIRE 9 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE Amen! Arminianism is nothing but revised Judaism,and follows the same dictates of every false religion since the beginning of time! My pathetic will dictates THE WILL OF ALMIGHTY GOD, INSTEAD OF THE WILL OF ALMIGHTY GOD RIGHTFULLY OMNIPOTANT-TATING me! We seem to forget what got the anointed cherub Lucifer himself cast out of Heaven! When he had the Audacity to say "I will" to ALMIGHTY GOD! Such a sad Self-Righteous Delusion is the spirit of Arminianism indeed!
SeraphimsCherub 4 months ago
Is God total sovereign over all? I believe that God gave humans choice and therefore God is not totally sovereign in the sense that he makes the choice of who is or is not "saved". God is sovereign in the process and it is God's process of salvation. Humans are free to chose if they want to be God's child or they want to live on their own. God does attached all but some don't come out of their own choice.
MRGV7373 9 months ago
@MRGV7373
Care to prove that notion from scripture?
If God is not Sovereign over all things he is not Sovereign at all. God can't be 99% Sovereign. Yes humans are Free to Choose, but will always choose evil because his nature is wicked from birth, he knows nothing else, unless Grace intervenes and gives man the ability to believe. That called Grace.
If you believe (If you had the ability thats is apart from God to believe .Which you don't) that would be called Works and not grace.
FirebrandNIRE 9 months ago 2
@FirebrandNIRE God can and did create the humans with a will to choose. God has set up this world with choices. So God is 100% sovereign in the context of Choice. Definition of Sovereign having supreme rank, power, or authority. Even the most wicked of Earthy sovereign's give choice to people. We choose to become God's child by accepting the gift of Jesus. People can choose good for selfish reason which God would find evil but the choice is still "good" . John 6:27 Jesus tell them to work
MRGV7373 9 months ago
@FirebrandNIRE How about John 1:12. God comes to us but we have to Receive him. John 1:39 - Jesus asks them to Come and See , they choose to follow. John4:15 the woman ask for the everlasting water - Jesus told her of special water his HS and she asks for it - choice. Did Jesus show her Grace? Absolutely but she had to ask to get it. John6:28 the crowd wanted to get the "everlasting bread" how Choose to believe in Jesus - the one who is sent. John9:6 the blind man chooses to wash.
MRGV7373 9 months ago
8:00 he says God wan't you to avoid Evil, WAIT, if your going to heaven already, you already don't partake in evil, cause your God's chosen one. WAIT, so then if you DO NOT avoid evil, THEN you can go to HELL??? BUSTED REV ANGUS COW!!
hemet92544 9 months ago
At least the Arminian treats us all like believers. I've come across too many people who have called Calvinists satanic and pagans. It sickens me when I see so many bullets flying out of hatred in these arguments. Hold the sword against your brethren to learn how to use it better not to take them down.
Shade0591 9 months ago
I do not understand the Calvinist point of view. It seems that view is saying it does not matter what you do , if you are not chosen you are going to hell , and if you are chosen no matter what you do, be a jerk kick puppy you are going to be saved .
Joeybsmooth 11 months ago
For anyone who may be searching for a biblical understanding of the gospel and salvation, I would highly recommend checking out the scribd website that is listed on my channel.
DreamsofMajesty 11 months ago
The ways of God are far from our understanding. Take for instance, God sends Moses to speak to Pharoah to let His people go, but tells Moses at the same time that He will harden Pharoah's heart so that he will not let them go. Pharoah has no choice in the matter, God has determined to show his wrath and hardens who He will because All is His and He can do as He pleases and who can question Him. Know that God is good and men are evil, God is not sometimes evil and men are not sometimes good.
JesusNonEnviromental 11 months ago 2
there is not a drop of evidence that hell is eternal and if you think so then by all mean send my a message and I will gladly refute your argument : )
Dwrancho144 1 year ago
I have a couple questions for the Calvanists. Would you explain Calvanism to Jesus if He were standing in front of you? :-)
000Winter000 1 year ago
I do NOT believe in "lose your salvation"(herersy and blasphemy) but calvinism= devil worship
barrypatrickius 1 year ago
tinyUrl ____ com/CounterfeitChristianity
See if you can solve the puzzle above...
1. Copy the link and fill in the blank before the "com/"
TCMAO0 1 year ago
im interested why someone would call themselves a Calvinist or an Arminianist and not a Christian, if their beliefs are based on the Bible and the Bible alone. Cults do that, "i'm a mormon", "i'm a seventh day adventist", "i'm a Jehovah's witness". Wjy no-one says "i'm a Christian"?
LoveJoyPeaceComfort 1 year ago
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort
Just an answer to your question. Because Christianity, which is the belief of Jesus Christ according to the Bible, has been divided into different views and doctrines. And those differences are named according to what view they believe in. Calvinism believes in a different doctrine that is very opposite to Arminianism.
TalmidRoi 1 year ago
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort Christianity is a religion. Calvinism and Arminianism are Christian soteriologies. In addition, the Seventh Day Adventist church is not a cult.
StormTrek 1 year ago
@StormTrek What makes you think SDA is not a cult? They have so many unBiblical doctrines that i could talk for ages.
LoveJoyPeaceComfort 1 year ago
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort "They have so many unBiblical doctrines that i could talk for ages."
So start talking.
StormTrek 1 year ago
Ok point number one. Ellen said that Jesus did not enter through the veil until after 1844. Yet Scriptures says -
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh.
LoveJoyPeaceComfort 1 year ago
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort That's not cult worthy. Arminians and Calvinists differ on soteriology as well. Neither is regarded as a cult. Mormons and JWs are regarded as cults because they deny the deity of Jesus. The primary reason Mormonism and JWs are considered a cult is their teaching regarding Jesus, they say he is a god, not THE God. If cults were determined solely by holding false doctrines, every church would be a cult.
StormTrek 1 year ago
@StormTrek It's foundational, because it makes Jesus into a liar, when He said "It is finished".
Moving on, Ellen said that God's throne was in Orion, which is where the Egyptians said Osiris god fo the dead resided, and in fact the egyptian pyramids of giza were lined up with Orion and Sirius for this reason. Heaven's gate suicide cult worshipped Orion too. Ellen used freemason language like "All-seeing eye", "great architect", because freemasonry is based on Egyptian mystery religion.
LoveJoyPeaceComfort 1 year ago
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort Does SDA church doctrine regard Ellen as an authority equal to or greater than the bible? If not, there's no foundation to classify the SDA church as a cult based on Ellen's ideas. In fact, the early Christian church was prone to following false prophets as evidenced by the need to be corrected by the Apostle Paul in his epistles. Thus, you are simply demonstrating that the SDA is foolish for entertaining a false prophetess, but you haven't demonstrated cult status.
StormTrek 1 year ago
@StormTrek Yes they do, in practice. In speech they say that they put the Bible first, but in practice they put Ellen first.
LoveJoyPeaceComfort 1 year ago
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort "We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White function as the foundation and final authority of Christian faith as does Scripture." SDA General Conference 1982
Thus, the objective evidence is that they are not a cult. Your opinion that Ellen is their authority "in pactice" is subjective opinion, hence, inadequate to demonstrate the SDA is a cult.
StormTrek 1 year ago
@StormTrek in the clearword Bible, they even ADDED Ellen's words.
LoveJoyPeaceComfort 1 year ago
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort "We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are an addition to the canon of Sacred Scripture." SDA General Conference 1982
Well, the SDA denies your assertion. Can you prove they added Ellen's words to the cannon?
StormTrek 1 year ago
@StormTrek Yes i can. It's on this documentary, and they show you the exact verses where they have added the freemasonic 1844 nonsense to the Word of God. -
/watch?v=8zwygXK1bBc
LoveJoyPeaceComfort 1 year ago
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort I didn't see the additions in that video. However, I did see that the video says Ellen "founded" the SDA which contradicts Wikipedia's article on the history of the SDA. The SDA foolishly says Ellen was a prophet when the evidence demonstrates otherwise. Great, don't waste time attending a SDA church. But you haven't evidenced that it is a cult.
StormTrek 1 year ago
@StormTrek Well that was part 1, i seem to recall it was on one of the parts towards the end. It's a white Bible with a rainbow cover, and they add Ellen's words to the book of Daniel. i do not lie, brother.
But i don't fight. God Himself sends the strong delusions and no-one can outsmart God. Even me, If God has appointed me to strong delusion, i would not see the Truth, even if you presented it straight to my face. Terrifying when you think about it.
LoveJoyPeaceComfort 1 year ago
@StormTrek i could use my time to prive that SDA is a cult. And maybe i would win the argument, or maybe you would win the argument. But this life is so short. i would rather spend my time seeking out the lost and the fatherless. That's what i'm doing now. Armeniasm vs Calvinism, how LOVELESS a discussion lol God loves FRUIT! We should be majoring on fruit of the spirit. Showing such love and mercy to unbelievers. PROVING Jesus Christ & love of God to them. James 1:27 is pure religion.
LoveJoyPeaceComfort 1 year ago
@StormTrek James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
i've been thinking lately, that many of us Chrsitians (including myself) tend to get bogged down in loveless academia to try and justify our own lack of fruit. Because love is too much of an obligation. We'd rather argue, than actually love lol
LoveJoyPeaceComfort 1 year ago
@LoveJoyPeaceComfort I believe you're right. If one spends his time trying to kick people out of Christianity he's probably not spending enough time caring for the sick and poor (or performing other fruits of the spirit). It's good to learn and teach accurate doctrine. But I promise you that the devil is always looking to turn Christian against Christian, and he'll leverage the silliest reasons to do it.
StormTrek 1 year ago
@StormTrek i believe that. i've had Christians block me for disagreeing about the Sabbath isuue, and Satanists that won't block or condemn me lol
LoveJoyPeaceComfort 1 year ago
i'm 2 minutes in, and all i've heard so far is ass-kissing lol
LoveJoyPeaceComfort 1 year ago
Is all of Calvinism simply to assure believers that they cannot be lost? And this being based on the Sovereignty of God to make them feel better? Just curious because that is where Calvinists seem to go so quickly.
sfaoldguy 1 year ago
No, the presenter wasn't silly to use that verse from Letiviticus. He was illustrating that, just as mankind had a choice in the Graden of Eden, so it is throughout Biblical history - to the present day. It's simple: every individual born into this world has a choice - either to follow good or evil. I believe that Calvinism is a curse in Ireland today. I see people living in sin, who once walked with the Lord. These people are under the illusion that they are secure. I pray for them.
Peace777able 1 year ago
Am I the only who thot da presenter was silly in using that verse in leviticus to question the reformed pastor's position on God's sovereign grace and election??
Yemi clearly doesnt seem to understand that God had covenant of works in the OT and covenant of grace in the NT
Palindrome700 1 year ago
Which came first God's Spirit substance or His moral Virtues? For example, His goodness, truth, mercy, love, etc. They are simultaneous of course! God's substance did not come and later His Virtues.God's self existing Life therefore is contingent on His being perpetual Virtue non suspended in self existing Life.Therefore free will is impossible because all free will suspends God's Nature.