So men can't control their thoughts, but they can walk around without a shirt, they suffer no consequences. Women can control their thoughts and they have to dress modestly, even if it's super hot. For no reason other than being born a woman.. wow .. great.
@MoonlightPlaylist This is not about the control of "thoughts" or "thinking process". Research was based on "what part of the brain" reacts to the pics. That is biological, not conscious.
This is not a question of gender fairness. If you wear revealing clothing YOU CAN COUNT on a reaction from men that focuses on the body. When he has NO INTEREST in knowing you beyond that, DON"T ASK WHY. Focus on showing your inner self, that is what a man will positively react to.
@MoonlightPlaylist Can but don't, for the sake of modesty as well. Just because I am not female doesn't mean I shouldnt show a good example to my daughters.
Bible always have emphasized modesty, "If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head." (1 Corinthians 11:6 ) so start covering your hair and being modest
@johnkane0071 That's if they prophesy, which you omitted to support your storyline. Quote the passage in context if you're not threatened by truth. There are many reasons for women (and men) to be modest, but islam punishes immodesty with death and cutting off noses and ears, and this happens right here in the states.
@spankula123 you cant find one text from quran where God says to kill those who are not modest, and you claim Islam punishes people...... try to make us feel collectively guilty of the crime people have committed by not following Islam, ............ please enlighten yourself, and next time you see a muslim woman , ask her, that are they being forced for being modest? or they are doing this for the love of God? .... I think only than you can make a fair judgment......
@dailydesi They are not "crimes" in sharia - parents who kill their offspring are not punished, I found two laws that state that. Fathers can kill their child for immodesty and get away with it, plain and simple. Saying the koran doesn't teach this is not an argument. The koran is profoundly anti-woman. Try google, if you don't fear truth. Make an argument my friend, or cease and desist.
@spankula123 Have you ever talk to a muslim women and ask her in person???????????? if you are really concern about their liberty, or you just believe what media tells you to believe......... its a new trend in media to bash Islam and make us muslims feel collectively guilty for someone elses crimes, just because we believe there is nothing worthy of Worship except the Creator and Jesus is one of the prophets of God
@dailydesi So the names I list are all fake? I have personal friends who tell me how women are treated in muslim countries. If you're going to be blind to the truth, that's your problem. Men and women are equal in God's sight in the Christian faith. The koran says different. 12 virgins in heaven defames women. Did they die as children? Who were they on earth? Now they're sexual slaves for eternity?
@spankula123 Do you believe in the oneness of God?, and believe in all the messenger he has sent to guide people to worship him alone, like moses , jesus, david e.t.c,?
@dailydesi You're taught to evade and not argue with infidels, so I'll depart from my unanswered questions. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. None come to the father except through him. Islam teaches that Jesus was just another prophet and DID NOT die for our sins. The bible states repeatedly that Jesus was God. This is blasphemy in islam. Jesus never asked for forgiveness, like Muhammad. Man is united with God through Jesus' death only. Peace to you.
@spankula123 There is no point in arguing when you dont even believe in oneness of God, and believe in three Gods, and lower the status of the creator to the lowest of low. your faith blinds you to see the truth of the Creator.........I Worship Creator only not the Creation........ yet I believe in Jesus, Mohammad and Moses and all other prophets as a messenger and Creation of the Creator to guide us to truth .......
@dailydesi I would like to hear the answers to those questions too. And please stop insulting us on things you choose not to understand. Christians do not believe in three gods, we believe in one God who plays three roles. It' s not that hard to understand that we don't believe in three gods, even if you don't get the trinity. Stop trying to pick fights.
@dailydesi Katya Koren, 19, stoned to death for beauty contest; Jessica Mokedad, 20, shot by her father for listening to rock and roll; Harry Potter actress Afshan Azad, 22, beaten by her father for dating a hindu; Noor Almaleki, 20, run over/killed by father for being too western; Mohammad Shafia kills his three beautiful daughters for dating wrong boys, says "I would do it again 100 times!" ...who's ignorant?
Wendy Shalit- "Certainly sexual modesty may damp down superficial allure, the kind of allure that inspires a one-night stand. But the kind of allure that lasts---that is what modesty protects and inspires" (Taken from Kent Hughes book "Set Apart, calling a worldly church to a Godly life) Read the chapter on modesty recently.
Wendy Shalit- "Certainly sexual modesty may damp down superficial allure, the kind of allure that inspires a one-night stand. But the kind of allure that lasts---that is what modesty protects and inspires" (Taken from Kent Hughes book "Set Apart, calling a worldly church to a Godly life) Read the chapter on modesty recently.
Wendy Shalit- "Certainly sexual modesty may damp down superficial allure, the kind of allure that inspires a one-night stand. But the kind of allure that lasts---that is what modesty protects and inspires" (Taken from Kent Hughes book "Set Apart, calling a worldly church to a Godly life) Read the chapter on modesty recently.
Let me just give a whole hearted thank you very very much to the women, who considering the weakness in thier brothers, choose not to dress in a seductive way. To the other, know this, "Christian men" can choose to look the other way, and it takes some serious, serious resolve. In the Song of Solomon it describes the womens body as a garden. Note that in Solomons day A garden was private, only accesible to its owner.
This conversation demonstrates very clearly that the only difference between radical islam and radical christianity is that american christians have been SOMEWHAT tamed by a secular society. If these people ran things this place would look like Saudi Arabia without a doubt. Look at the dark ages. These people are dangerous.
@mrsockolate I absolutely agree with you. One teensy problem - how do you plan on doing that? Neutering men? Why do you think eunuchs were created? Just, you know, a thought. ;-)
Wow. Just... wow. Here's an idea: as a society, shouldn't we work on making men always see women as human beings even when they happen to be (half-)naked? Shouldn't we strive to eliminate their impression that, as soon as a a woman is in her underwear, they are permitted to instantly "push", "handle" or "grab"? Instead of blaming the victims of this process of objectification and restricting their freedom? Just, you know, a thought.
A woman should be able to wear whatever she wants. Instead of covering herself up to accommodate the man's brain, maybe the man should take responsibility and stop de-humanizing women just because she's wearing a bikini.
@violationxx We all can wear whatever we want. That doesn't mean we SHOULD. Why not HELP our brothers and sisters get into heaven? I'm sure not going to tempt them when keeping away from temptations of the world is already difficult enough on it's own. It's a two-way street in this situation. We can only do so much, but we're supposed to be HELPING each other to salvation, not making it harder.
@adriennecrista Is it helpful to make women feel ashamed of their bodies? Is it helpful to ignore the fact that men choose to objectify women, and thus they can choose not to? My issue with the message in this video is that it puts all the responsibility on women to stop men from objectifying them - shouldn't we be challenging the source of the problem? The women's body is beautiful and she should be free to celebrate it without persecution. It is only "tempting" if we choose to make it so.
@violationxx Dont cover up thats completely up to you. Some christian men around you will try there hardest to not view you sexually, and wont, while others will try there hardest, and still succome to thier flesh. Just note, the bible says you will share in the responsibility for that mans sin
He said it to Peter. Was Peter not part of the Church? He gave Peter authority in his office as Pope. And stop making the gross generalization that priests are pedophiles. Do people say that the American President is a slut because of Bill Clinton? No. And statistically there are more sexual predators among school teachers and coaches. You sound very unintelligent. Listen to yourself.
@chromecrescent Just to address the issue of Peter as being a founder of the popes in Rome, that is something that the Roman popes took way! out of context at that time and have done so ever since. Peter was not in Rome, there was never any account of him being there, Paul yes, Peter no. I'm reading the Martyr's Mirror, not for the faint of heart and very revealing. Re: video..I absolutely do NOT approve of bikini's and my husband/male friends as well. Men's hearts should be protected.
@chromecrescent Sorry, I read ahead in my theology book and you are right, Peter was martyr'd in Rome by Nero in AD 69. He was only there a short time, having done his main ministry in Jerusalem and other places where the Jews had settled. But it does say that he never discussed with them (Romans) the issues of being a bishop, much less a pope. An excellent challenge to sharpen my studies to get my facts exact!
So....a girl wearing spray on jeans and a boob hugging top is of more value than a girl who chooses to wear a comfy two piece swimsuit just because she's covering more? Modesty isn't all about how much skin you're showing - it's about what's motivating you to wear what you are wearing - or not.
They need to tell this to the men. Because then maybe they will think twice about looking at porn sites. Especially if they would like to treat and think of women as humans and show them respect.
God says to cover your flesh from your loins to your thighs (covering upper thighs to the knees).
God didn't intend for this to be adjustable but that is what has happened.
You got some "Christians" bending the rules to allow a shorter dress/skirt/shorts and then some like the Mormons and J.W.'s will bend it the other way as if they need to drop the length to the ankles.
... This one is also skewed massively today in this sick cross gender world!
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
@GodGunsGutsGlory4KJV You have a good point, but before you start pointing fingers at other christians taking things to an extreme, you might look into what "Mormons" actually believe because I think you would be surprised. :)
... and if you were referring to the things that Mormon's got right, well just realize that Satan doesn't succeed with he creates a false religion from the ground up. He takes what God said and tweaks enough to corrupt it.
And "church" in the KJV just means "congregation of believers".
Not some place where a pervert POPE will dictate that clergy can't marry, to call clergy fathers (counter what Jesus said), baptize babies, confess to a pedophile in the box, etc etc etc.
Before you go making judgmental comments about what Mormons think people should wear, actually find out what they think. Your criteria of "upper thighs to the knees" is pretty much identical to the Brigham Young University honor code requirement that "dresses, skirts, and shorts must be knee-length or longer"
@bomac10000 But of course he fails to understand that suicide is forbidden in all religions :) As is killing any innocent soul. Bomac10000 I like what you are doing here. I enjoy reading your comments. Thanks.
The simplest fact of this is: no one should be pressured to dress one way or the other just for the sake of the immature, the hormonal and the objectifying. We don't make our decisions based on how some stranger will react. We wear what we are comfortable wearing, and if that's a one-piece or a two-piece or a baggy t-shirt and sweats, then that is an individual's decision. We don't dress to "send out a message" or "advertise", and if men objectify then it's their mindset that needs changing.
@thetypewriterisholy The point of the video was to create the understanding that you do send out a message, accidental or otherwise, based on how you dress, groom, act, speak etc. and that people react to you based on that message. If you choose to dress provocatively and then ask "Why aren't men reacting to me as a person of value and worth?" A primary reason may be because you communicated to them that your main value lies in your body, and not in your mind or personality.
@thetypewriterisholy Amen. I agree with you. We focus on how women are always be blame for the actions and thoughts of men. If men are raised to respect women they will not think like this. However they are not. If they have a sister they are allowed to spy on her in the shower and parents say "Oh that's ok its natural" Well what you are really teaching your son and daughter is that women are object to be leered at and they do not deserve privacy.
@thetypewriterisholy I completely agree. If women choose to wear bikini's, that's their choice, because it typically makes them feel sexy! I'm a Catholic guy, & I think the female body is beautiful & sexy. It is the MENTALITY of something that can twist what God has made beautiful. Before Adam & Eve fell from grace, THEY were NAKED! & it was a beautiful thing, not filthy! It's the world that has taken nudity & made it dirty!
@thetypewriterisholy But I also RESPECT women for the PEOPLE they are, not just for their bodies. Men want to feel sexy for their wives & women want to feel sexy fro their husbands, after & BEFORE they are married. Looks ARE important, but WHO the person IS is MORE important. It's very difficult these days not to cross the line between admiration, & lust. But GOD is the one Who will guide us to show us TRUE beauty, and to keep our minds pure & to see His beauty in all.
@Thrasher51590 yes, but there is a godly way to attract, as defined in the Bible, by putting on good works, and an ungodly way, which is also defined in the Bible.
@thetypewriterisholy First off, I'm a Christian young man and I would like to think I'm not one of the "immature", "hormonal", and "objectifying" men you're referring to. However, there is serious danger in what you're advocating. Christian women, PLEASE do not wear things that draw attention to your body. I am doing my best to keep my mind and heart pure for my future wife but we Christian men need your help as well. Please do your part so as not tobe a stumbling block.
@oytboy the thing is, is that it is in the mans sinful nature to be like that, dosent mean your immature, it simply means we are full of sin no matter what. i agree with you in woman should not wear them but i also strongly believe that if your covenant is as strong as it should be with god you wont be as easily tempted.
@eveningbuzz So, I think in this situation here, I think it is your duty as a human being, if you even fathom the idea of there being a different way of living, to think about the consequences of you not following your instincts to do the research of the meaning of life. How about you try researching the different religions out there, and then coming back to me to honestly, and genuinely criticize my beliefs. How is that for a challenge?
@eveningbuzz I'm in university, studying Public Affairs and Policy Management, specializing in Public Policy and Administration - it won't be the least bit exaggeration when I say I am very aware of my surrounding, and the facts of life. What I learn, how I evolve, my perceptions and their advancement are all in parallel with what I study, and coincide perfectly with my religious beliefs and doctrines. I've found Islam after research, I'm not a blind follower.
People need to realize that despite whether it is a question of dressing less or more, women are always self-conscious of how they look, no matter who they are trying to impress. And I say this as a woman. We live in a society where both sexes coexist, and we must be considerate of the opposite sex. That goes for men too, who must also cover, but it is important to note, their greatest covering is their eyelids. But in this video, the target audience is women, therefore that is irrelevant.
@ldslaurel16 You are right, but that's irrelevant here, since the target audience is women in this video. Also, it is important to note that the covering of a man is his eyelids. In the Quran actually, the modesty of men has been addressed before the modesty of women. They must dress loosely and cover from the belly to knees, and that's saying something. But again, this fact is irrelevant to the video above.
Objectification of women doesn't mean women need to change their clothes, it means that there is something fundamentally messed up with the way that men view women. If I need a turtleneck to be respected as an equal, I think there's something seriously wrong with the man I'm speaking to.
@thetypewriterisholy To say there is something messed up in a man because of how his brain (not him) reacts to a woman dressed in her underwear is like saying there is something wrong with salivating when a meal is put in front of you. Its a reaction to a stimulus, and teaches you if you want to provoke that reaction, then dress accordingly. If you want to access the innate goodness, kindness, act accordingly as well.
@bomac10000 That's far too simplistic. We're humans, our brains are supposed to be what set us apart from other animals. The fact that we don't have to be slaves to our biological desires and hormones. If society didn't teach men to objectify women, this so-called "brain reaction" wouldn't be an issue at all. We're not biologically made to ogle at nudity. The mentality that there's something dangerous or obscene about a woman's body is ridiculous.
@thetypewriterisholy "Dangerous or obscene?" Please state where that is said or inferred in the presentation? Those are your words injected into the discussion. NO ONE, is saying that.
I'm absolutely amazed that the question would even seriously be considered! If 'the great commission' was to become like the world around us, we could just about say, "Mission accomplished"!!
If you search for the above words, you will probably find the article of what happens when women are allowed to take the blame for men's lack of holiness.
@bomac10000 Men are not hard-wired to look at the nude female form as a sex object, but most men wouldn't know any different because they havent had any experience otherwise. Talk to some male doctors who have had some experience in delivery rooms. Overall, they would tell you that they don't get hot and heavy when they are at work. Why? Because the female body isn't inherently a sex object. Men aren't "born this way;" they are "raised this way." But you don't have experience to know otherwise.
@Archaewok1 Nice opinion, not supported by the scientific study. Male doctors are taught to depersonalize a female by using draping, formless gowns, and screens to separate the bottom from the top of the female form, and from the legs down to minimize the effect of the female form on the man. On a regular basis, issues arise for exactly the reasons stated in the video. You state the female form is not sexually attractive to the man unless otherwise taught to be so? Please sight evidences?
Men are also wearing underwear on the beach, but I guess that's not an issue. The issue is always how we're perceived by men, not that men and women are taught that women's values lie in their appearance and how much sex they appear to or are having. I cannot WAIT to have children to teach them that their self-worth can be measured by how they treat others and what they do with their lives.
@theoriginalloodle Correct on both counts, but this is not about self worth, this is about perception. If you teach a girl that she does not have to show a lot of skin to get attention, and that the attention she will get under those circumstances is not the attention she wants, she will be well armed for the circumstance.
@bomac10000. How can you possibly compare my argument of 'looking at a picture of a woman from the neck down' to 'getting danced on at a strip club'? I'm talking about women in clothing with no facial features, you are talking about live naked women with physical interaction. Perhaps this is why people don't respect you, your religion, or this "Christian science." Bending words does not make an argument. Completely outlandish. I'm sad to be associated with any of you. Wake up.
@taco314159 You stated that in the study men viewed women as objects because the head was cropped, allowing men to see them not as human. My point is that headless/faceless or not, men react to the unclothed female form (as in a strip club) in the same manner, and that leaving the head off makes absolutely no difference. You then state this is "Christian science", the STUDY WAS FROM PRINCETON, sighted in a Catholic publication. Sorry you don't like the truth, but that doesn't change it.
I think its kind of funny that chastity.com is blocked at my catholic school for sexual content...back to the topic...i always wear a long sleeve rash guard and cute kneelengh board shorts over my non bikini bathing suit for modesty but also for protection from the sun...my skinis really bad and I dont need it to get worse
Sadly, alot of girls don't get it. Alot of girls choose clothes thinking about what looks cute - which is OK. But they don't realize the guy isn't thinking, "Hey, that flower strapless top is totally cute with that pink miniskirt." They're thinking of what their animal instincts draw them to.
@sighingheart Who would think it was cute? Another woman! Are you saying a woman is not aware of what a man thinks when he looks at her? Never met a woman over 18 that didn't get that. Truth is most women understand what will get a mans attention, what they want to control, that they cannot, is the type of attention they will get.
@Kagome811: that's right. Women only wear stuff based on comfort and convenience considerations, not worrying at all how others perceive them. In fact that's how the whole multi-billion fashion and beauty products industries operate. Right
I don't even know what to say. You guys, women DO NOT dress for men! I'm going to wear whatever the hell I want, as long as I like wearing it and I'm comfortable. When I get ready to go out every day, I don't look at my clothes and think, "Well, gee, what will the GUYS like?" No. I'm thinking, "What do I think I will feel comfortable in today?"
@Kagome811 'No. I'm thinking, "What do I think I will feel comfortable in today?"' Yeah, if that were true, why in the world do women wear crappy designer shoes that hurt their feet?
@gortat4 Comfort can also mean just feeling good in what we're wearing. I don't wear designer shoes, but when I wear heels with an outfit I like it makes me feel good. I could care less what guys think of that outfit. Believe me, our worlds don't revolve around guys' perceptions of us. (There are always exceptions, but for the most part, I am speaking the truth.)
@bomac10000 No I haven't. But I think you're missing my point. Yes, women like to look good. But no, we do not dress for men. We dress for impressions. If I'm going to a job interview I'm obviously not going to wear a miniskirt with high heels, because I most likely won't get hired. But if I am at the beach, I'm not going to cover up just because some men might lack the control they should have when looking at a half-naked woman. Ever been to a European nudist beach? No one gives a fuck.
@Kagome811 There are nude beaches in NJ, my buddies used to go there to get some. Why,because a naked woman is sending a message, and its not about comfort. Also, its not about control, no man is going to DO anything to you-never was that ever mentioned, and if you don't care how you are perceived, thats fine, but when you meet one of these men, or get friendly you should understand that his focus is on your body because you have shown yo don't respect it enough to keep it partially clothed
@bomac10000 Just because I may want to wear a shorter skirt than normal one day doesn't mean I don't respect my body. And I understand that society has morphed these ideas into what they are but that doesn't mean that I'm going to go with it. Equality for both genders, you know? It goes for men, too. If a man can walk around shirtless, that's great. But why are women so indecent to expose? Breasts are the same on both genders, women just have more tissue. You know?
@Kagome811 Your the 100th person to turn this into an equality issue, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EQUALITY!! Watch the video again, listen to what the speaker is saying, go step by step..then review the important points he is making..
@bomac10000 LOL okay, I'm done seeing your comments popping up in my notifications. I'm not an object whether I'm naked or fully clothed from head-to-toe, and NO man should think otherwise. You will always be a misogynist no matter what you wear. Head down to that nudist beach of yours and go see if you can "get some" while spouting these 'brilliant' views of yours.
@Kagome811 think about it like this, If a man wears no shirt in public will a woman get turned on? If a woman were to wear no shirt in public you can bet there are men that would be turned on.
Why is it that because men can't control themselves, they can walk around without a shirt.. but women who can control themselves have to be modest? Why are we trying to punish women for men's sin?
@bomac10000 Women have to dress a cetain way because of how men might treat or think of them, but because women can control their feelings around men, men can dress however they want.. fair? no.
@MoonlightPlaylist No, women can dress however they want, but if they so choose to expose a lot of skin they will affect men negatively in terms of how they are perceived. NEITHER ARE MEN IMMUNE AS TO HOW THEY ARE PERCEIVED BY WOMEN BASED ON THEIR CHOICES, BUT THAT TOPIC IS NOT COVERED HERE.
@MoonlightPlaylist What has fairness got to do with anything? The truth of the matter is you can make whatever choice you want, but you take the consequences that go along with them. Step off a cliff thats a choice, you are free to make it, fall to your death thats a consequence. Gravity is not"fair" gravity doesn't care about fair..Show a bunch of skin to a man, men will respond based on how they are wired, its not stupid, it just is how it is.
@bomac10000 Soo. what are men doing about modesty..? or what are men doing to help their sisters? I don't think we should teach girls to dress a certain way for men, either scantly or fully covered. That puts their self esteem on men and not themselves, tell them to dress that way for their own value.
Don't you think there MIGHT be a difference between looking at a bikini for a tenth of a second and continuing to look for 20 seconds or so? Don't you think that MIGHT be enough time to reengage the brain so you're thinking like a human being again? ANYONE can be a sex object for a fraction of a second. But NORMAL people don't keep their brains shut off for very long.
@LarryH54 Larry, he is not talking about "thinking", but about the immediate reaction biologically programmed into men. Of course a man can chose not to think any thought he wants, but as long as a woman chooses to show her body in that fashion a mans brain will continue to "light up" in unhealthy ways. If you don't want to be objectified, no not create the circumstances under which you will be.Make any decision you want, but you don't get to choose what goes along with that.(the reaction)
@1college07 There is NO ONE in this video TELLING ANYONE what they "should or should not" wear. He is pointing out that scientific studies show that if a woman wears a bikini a man will see her as an object rather than a person. No one said anything about makeup (completely off topic), no one is talking about what men should or should not do (off topic), or covering up beauty (as if a womans beauty COULD be covered), this is about exposure and objectification and how they go hand in hand.
I will give credit to the study he cited so many times only if the study was also performed on images of one-peice or tankini suits. I'm willing to bet that if a man is shown a picture of an attractive female, with her head cropped out, wearing a typical form fitting one piece the results would be almost identical.
@amaunet1620 I would agree, and good point. If we are here to assist each other in our journey home to our Heavenly Father, our awareness of how we affect each other is incredibly important. Sometimes the most loving decision we can make is to understand that we are "Our Brothers Keeper".
This guy is an idiot. Does nobody else have a problem with a male telling a bunch of females what they should and shouldn't wear? Girls should wear whatever they want. If society analyzed everything to the extent that this guy does we would all have to stay in our own homes every day and never go out in public. What about males? Why didn't this guy tell the females what happens when a male wears a speed o? What a complete waste of time this video is.
@joelnazzy He NEVER says what they should or shouldn't wear. He is pointing out that what is worn (in this case by a woman) affects a man in ways they may not be aware of, or intended. And if so, does the woman (in this case as a Christian) WANT to be seen in that fashion? Is that good information to know, or not is the only relevant follow up question. No, its not politically correct, but it is the truth.
I have a question. I have always been brought up to not wear revealing bathing suits, and when I bought my own clothing and as 18 was allowed to wear what I wanted. I did choose to wear bikinis, but I found myself very uncomfortable, when before as a teen I would have gladly traded my tankini or one piece. Now, saying that, I have been recently married. Would it be wrong if I wore a bikini when I am with my husband? Most swimsuits do not fit me well, and that is my biggest hassle.
im a woman. i know that most women are somewhat concerned with what men think of them, especially how they look. this guy was informing a room full of women exactly what that is when she is wearing a bikini. i know for myself, if i were looking for someone to love me, i wouldnt want to attract a man sexually by what im "not" wearing. i would rather attract him by my actions, and personality, as well as looking pretty(not sexy). no girl in their right mind wants to look like a sex item.
That is the opinion of a man. Did it ever occur to anyone to ask women what they feel confortable wearing ? This guy wants women to appeal to his own liking in his own perception of women. Two piece, one piece, or covered from head to toe is only women business.
@huertasdanny 1. The question was asked by a woman- "Is it modest to wear a bikini?"-so they ASKED for his opinion. 2. The answer is the result of a scientific study, NOT his own opinion-not what he likes, wants, or desires in a woman. 3. As a christian what you wear IS your own business, as are the consequences. 4. The audien is a Christian audience at a university, so the topic is completely reasonable.
@huertasdanny Last time I checked, we live in a world where men and women coexist. Whether we want to or not, we have to be considerate of the opposite sex. As much as it is better for me to cover, the covering of a man is his eyelids, remember that. The world doesn't evolve around your likings. There are facts we have to face and put up with, and that's a reality check for you.
Please don't be such prudes, women are not getting raped because of the clothes they wear, women get raped because they had the bad luck of being near a psicopath at the wrong time. Stop this ridiculous victim blaming, it makes me sad to think that we share a species.
@longichis It is not about rape, it IS about what you want a man to see in you. Do you want to be liked for your mind, your attributes, your personality or do you want to be desired for your body? Because what you where will tell the man what how you want to be seen.
it's clear to me that the solution to all of this is to give your kids a choice: you can leave the house in either a) eskimo fur, fully clad with mittens snd mukluks; or b) a padded sumo suit. so far all my girls have all opted for the eskimo fur. really, they weren't hard to coerce once i taught them that sunlight will melt their skin until it drips from their flesh like salt water taffy. it's amazing what homeschooling can accomplish.
@ldslaurel16 No need to apologize, its good to get things on the table. You could better understand that while this has a cultural aspect it is not the central aspect of the discussion. Our job as Christians is to follow Christ, no more or less. Our job is to love as he loved, and all the he gives us is for us to develop love. You can either help that along or focus on you. In this life, we learn and develop by sacrifice and service. How does that show up in your daily choices of apparrel?
@ldslaurel16 You are listening to everyone but the people you should, read your "For The Strength of Youth Pamphlet" The Lord delights in the chastity of women, if that is true, who is it you are trying to please?? God gives commandments for our happiness, he wants his daughters to follow him, understanding that if they do, they will find not temporary things, but true Joy. Desires to be as the rest of the world now is will never bring you that..
@ldslaurel16 No, they are doing it because they fail to understand why its wrong, or do, and choose not to see it because they like the style. The allure of the world has overcome them.
Both are equally important, you cannot pick one over the other, God tells us that "all things are spiritual" unto him. So modesty is held in the same esteem as the saving ordinances BECAUSE YOU CANNOT BE WORTHY FOR ONE IF YOU ARE IGNORING THE OTHER. All other arguments there are irrelevent.
@ldslaurel16 You have been sold the utter nonsense the world is peddling. The world has created a "new value", the value of immodesty as normal, and a problem only for men, but one in which it is entirely in their hands to change. Insomuch as you inhabit the same world as men it behooves you to take into consideration who and what they are in a kind and loving way. You are your brothers keeper, God has an expectation of you in that regard that cannot be dismissed simply because you want it to be
It would be nice if we addressed the male responsibility here rather than blaming it all on women. Sure, if you don't want to be seen as a slut, don't dress like one, but really? Learn some self-control, guys. I understand instinctive reactions can't be controlled, but the way you handle them certainly can. I'm tired of hearing that it's the woman's job to be modest. It's the man's job to be respectful and master his libido.
@finch719 It would be, but that wasn't the topic spoken about to the FEMALE AUDIENCE at this college. The question asked by a woman was, "should christian women wear a bikini?" The answer addresses how a male perceives a woman dressed in a bikini. Yes, you can handle the reaction, but that is irrelevant, because the way you dress has already sent an essential message to the man. Fact is, wise women dress modestly, because they want to accentuate their personalities, not draw focus to their body
As some others have said, the study he references appears broken to begin with. If the women in bikinis don't have their heads shown, the pictures are already dehumanized. Not to mention, these pictures were shown to men who were probably familiar with porn to begin with, and had been taught by society and the church they may have gone to that the body is a sex object inherently (church- don't look at it because it's a sex object). That said, what did they expect to find? They raised those minds
@Archaewok1 Whether a body has a head on it or not is irrelevant, everyone knows that the human body in its female form belongs to a female. The point of the study is that men react to that in its unclothed form. Again, how many men who witness an unclothed woman look at the body go "Wow, I would LOVE to get know her personality, its gotta be amazing". Really, if you don't want to believe it then don't, you can learn the same lesson every other woman learns the hard way about men.
The key part of this lecture that is not expounded upon at all is the fact that the the image of bikini-clad women that men identify as tools rather than people are from the neck down. There are no faces on these photos. It is that dehumanization that is causing men to not think of them as people. Not the fact that they are wearing less clothing.
Without the most human attribute on the pictures, it is no wonder why they are seen as things rather than people. Another dumb twisting of science
@taco314159 Thank you, I could not agree more and thought the same thing. If anything, it's the people running the study that had a dehumanized view of women. I'm not advocating that women bare all, but let's be real here, that same "tool" thought process can occur when a women is fully clothed and women can feel the same way about men when they're fully clothed too. C.S. Lewis addressed this topic well in "Mere Christianity", read that before running away with this video people.
@taco314159 So you think that adding a face NEGATES the effect an essentially naked woman would have on a man? You've never gone to a strip club have you? I challenge you to go in and see HOW ENGAGED the men there are with the FACES and PERSONALITIES of the women as they disrobe. AND THE WOMEN KNOW AND COUNT on that effect in order to make money. WAKE UP, this study is dead on...or go ahead and learn the hard way, really your choice.
@ldslaurel16 Its not "thinking" thats being addressed. He said "the area of a mans brain that lights up is the area having to do with tool use" even when exposed to a picture of a woman for an infinitely small amount of time. Thats not about thought, its about reaction, its about how something hits a man at a primal level. That does not mean he cannot look away or choose another thought, it is about what his FIRST thought WILL be because of how he is constructed by God physically.
@bomac10000 Again, brilliantly put. I think we're all forgetting that it's that same reaction to seeing a woman (or man) that eventually makes the wedding night the "wedding night" and is responsible for our very existence through conception and birth LoL. It's part of our design and God wants us to control it, not banish it or criticize it, in either gender. That's why we're told to marry, because that urge would be useful to reproduce and express love to our spouse.
I for one am tired of only always seeing modesty subjects being addressed toward women-Modesty is for men too. We women struggle with lust too ya know.
@YESHUAISMERCIFUL islam adresses this issue, thats why muslim men are required to cover them selves modestly with loose clothing, such that their private regions are not protruding outwards. e.g loose garments like robes, this can be seen in the middle east where men wear loose long white garments (white=a pure colour, a colour of peace), the same can even be seen in paintings created by christians of jesus christ, so too his mother mary....just like muslim women *MODEST*
@QcatDoesGames has no smart women in his life, let alone any woman. A real man doesn't need to objectify woman. A real man can see a woman for what she is and take value in the fact they cared enough about their body, to keep it sacred. The world doesn't need to see naked women, the world needs to see strong women removing themselves as sex objects.
@ldslaurel16 What you're endorsing is mind control, which is incredibly stupid. The reason we have survived as a species is because of the male sex drive. What you're suggesting is no better than me saying "I respect that women would like to be appreciated more for their mind. But I think they should fight that instead of complaining all the time. The smart women in my life agree with me."
I don't care who agrees with you. Forcing an entire gender to stop thinking certain thoughts is moronic.
Wow... When you parade your milk bags around all I think about is titty fucking. We really needed to dedicate money to a study that correlates us men into looking like pigs, yet again. Oh well.
So men can't control their thoughts, but they can walk around without a shirt, they suffer no consequences. Women can control their thoughts and they have to dress modestly, even if it's super hot. For no reason other than being born a woman.. wow .. great.
MoonlightPlaylist 6 days ago
@MoonlightPlaylist This is not about the control of "thoughts" or "thinking process". Research was based on "what part of the brain" reacts to the pics. That is biological, not conscious.
This is not a question of gender fairness. If you wear revealing clothing YOU CAN COUNT on a reaction from men that focuses on the body. When he has NO INTEREST in knowing you beyond that, DON"T ASK WHY. Focus on showing your inner self, that is what a man will positively react to.
bomac10000 2 days ago
@bomac10000 Easy for you to say you can wear whatever you want.
MoonlightPlaylist 2 days ago
@MoonlightPlaylist Can but don't, for the sake of modesty as well. Just because I am not female doesn't mean I shouldnt show a good example to my daughters.
bomac10000 1 day ago
Bible always have emphasized modesty, "If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head." (1 Corinthians 11:6 ) so start covering your hair and being modest
johnkane0071 1 week ago 12
@johnkane0071 That's if they prophesy, which you omitted to support your storyline. Quote the passage in context if you're not threatened by truth. There are many reasons for women (and men) to be modest, but islam punishes immodesty with death and cutting off noses and ears, and this happens right here in the states.
spankula123 1 week ago
@spankula123 you cant find one text from quran where God says to kill those who are not modest, and you claim Islam punishes people...... try to make us feel collectively guilty of the crime people have committed by not following Islam, ............ please enlighten yourself, and next time you see a muslim woman , ask her, that are they being forced for being modest? or they are doing this for the love of God? .... I think only than you can make a fair judgment......
dailydesi 1 week ago
@dailydesi They are not "crimes" in sharia - parents who kill their offspring are not punished, I found two laws that state that. Fathers can kill their child for immodesty and get away with it, plain and simple. Saying the koran doesn't teach this is not an argument. The koran is profoundly anti-woman. Try google, if you don't fear truth. Make an argument my friend, or cease and desist.
spankula123 1 week ago
@spankula123 Have you ever talk to a muslim women and ask her in person???????????? if you are really concern about their liberty, or you just believe what media tells you to believe......... its a new trend in media to bash Islam and make us muslims feel collectively guilty for someone elses crimes, just because we believe there is nothing worthy of Worship except the Creator and Jesus is one of the prophets of God
dailydesi 1 week ago
@dailydesi So the names I list are all fake? I have personal friends who tell me how women are treated in muslim countries. If you're going to be blind to the truth, that's your problem. Men and women are equal in God's sight in the Christian faith. The koran says different. 12 virgins in heaven defames women. Did they die as children? Who were they on earth? Now they're sexual slaves for eternity?
spankula123 1 week ago
@spankula123 Do you believe in the oneness of God?, and believe in all the messenger he has sent to guide people to worship him alone, like moses , jesus, david e.t.c,?
dailydesi 1 week ago
@dailydesi You're taught to evade and not argue with infidels, so I'll depart from my unanswered questions. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. None come to the father except through him. Islam teaches that Jesus was just another prophet and DID NOT die for our sins. The bible states repeatedly that Jesus was God. This is blasphemy in islam. Jesus never asked for forgiveness, like Muhammad. Man is united with God through Jesus' death only. Peace to you.
spankula123 1 week ago
@spankula123 There is no point in arguing when you dont even believe in oneness of God, and believe in three Gods, and lower the status of the creator to the lowest of low. your faith blinds you to see the truth of the Creator.........I Worship Creator only not the Creation........ yet I believe in Jesus, Mohammad and Moses and all other prophets as a messenger and Creation of the Creator to guide us to truth .......
dailydesi 1 week ago 2
@dailydesi I would like to hear the answers to those questions too. And please stop insulting us on things you choose not to understand. Christians do not believe in three gods, we believe in one God who plays three roles. It' s not that hard to understand that we don't believe in three gods, even if you don't get the trinity. Stop trying to pick fights.
MoonlightPlaylist 6 days ago
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lucy9359 1 week ago
Be modest, but I still see nothing wrong with a bikini. Guys need to learn self-control as well. I'm a Man. There is a time for everything...
UnexpectedWonder 2 weeks ago
Thank God, I am a muslim, and God has commanded our sisters , mothers , and daughters to dress modestly
dailydesi 2 weeks ago 19
@dailydesi ...or else they will be stoned or hung. praise allah!
spankula123 1 week ago
@spankula123 ignorance
dailydesi 1 week ago
@dailydesi Katya Koren, 19, stoned to death for beauty contest; Jessica Mokedad, 20, shot by her father for listening to rock and roll; Harry Potter actress Afshan Azad, 22, beaten by her father for dating a hindu; Noor Almaleki, 20, run over/killed by father for being too western; Mohammad Shafia kills his three beautiful daughters for dating wrong boys, says "I would do it again 100 times!" ...who's ignorant?
spankula123 1 week ago 2
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dailydesi 1 week ago
@dailydesi I already did my work and provided facts. You refute them by saying they are news stories??? you make me laugh.
spankula123 1 week ago
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dailydesi 1 week ago
@dailydesi How does hair length equate to honor killing children? Are you so easily satisfied? Please explain.
spankula123 1 week ago
@spankula123 Do you claim that God says in the scripture of muslims that kill those who are not modest ?????
dailydesi 1 week ago
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Wendy Shalit- "Certainly sexual modesty may damp down superficial allure, the kind of allure that inspires a one-night stand. But the kind of allure that lasts---that is what modesty protects and inspires" (Taken from Kent Hughes book "Set Apart, calling a worldly church to a Godly life) Read the chapter on modesty recently.
Lukelovesthelord 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Wendy Shalit- "Certainly sexual modesty may damp down superficial allure, the kind of allure that inspires a one-night stand. But the kind of allure that lasts---that is what modesty protects and inspires" (Taken from Kent Hughes book "Set Apart, calling a worldly church to a Godly life) Read the chapter on modesty recently.
Lukelovesthelord 3 weeks ago
Wendy Shalit- "Certainly sexual modesty may damp down superficial allure, the kind of allure that inspires a one-night stand. But the kind of allure that lasts---that is what modesty protects and inspires" (Taken from Kent Hughes book "Set Apart, calling a worldly church to a Godly life) Read the chapter on modesty recently.
Lukelovesthelord 3 weeks ago
Let me just give a whole hearted thank you very very much to the women, who considering the weakness in thier brothers, choose not to dress in a seductive way. To the other, know this, "Christian men" can choose to look the other way, and it takes some serious, serious resolve. In the Song of Solomon it describes the womens body as a garden. Note that in Solomons day A garden was private, only accesible to its owner.
Lukelovesthelord 3 weeks ago 3
This conversation demonstrates very clearly that the only difference between radical islam and radical christianity is that american christians have been SOMEWHAT tamed by a secular society. If these people ran things this place would look like Saudi Arabia without a doubt. Look at the dark ages. These people are dangerous.
qualityrkc 3 weeks ago
@mrsockolate I absolutely agree with you. One teensy problem - how do you plan on doing that? Neutering men? Why do you think eunuchs were created? Just, you know, a thought. ;-)
gwenhwyfar187 3 weeks ago
Wow. Just... wow. Here's an idea: as a society, shouldn't we work on making men always see women as human beings even when they happen to be (half-)naked? Shouldn't we strive to eliminate their impression that, as soon as a a woman is in her underwear, they are permitted to instantly "push", "handle" or "grab"? Instead of blaming the victims of this process of objectification and restricting their freedom? Just, you know, a thought.
mrsockolate 4 weeks ago
A woman should be able to wear whatever she wants. Instead of covering herself up to accommodate the man's brain, maybe the man should take responsibility and stop de-humanizing women just because she's wearing a bikini.
violationxx 1 month ago 2
@violationxx We all can wear whatever we want. That doesn't mean we SHOULD. Why not HELP our brothers and sisters get into heaven? I'm sure not going to tempt them when keeping away from temptations of the world is already difficult enough on it's own. It's a two-way street in this situation. We can only do so much, but we're supposed to be HELPING each other to salvation, not making it harder.
adriennecrista 1 month ago
@adriennecrista Is it helpful to make women feel ashamed of their bodies? Is it helpful to ignore the fact that men choose to objectify women, and thus they can choose not to? My issue with the message in this video is that it puts all the responsibility on women to stop men from objectifying them - shouldn't we be challenging the source of the problem? The women's body is beautiful and she should be free to celebrate it without persecution. It is only "tempting" if we choose to make it so.
violationxx 1 month ago
@violationxx Please watch "The Naked Truth About Modesty" - perhaps this will help clarify your questions.
omGOP3 1 month ago
@violationxx I think you kind of missed a part of what he was saying.Perhaps a nice reviewing of the video would benefit you.
richman360 1 month ago
@violationxx Dont cover up thats completely up to you. Some christian men around you will try there hardest to not view you sexually, and wont, while others will try there hardest, and still succome to thier flesh. Just note, the bible says you will share in the responsibility for that mans sin
Lukelovesthelord 3 weeks ago 2
@Lukelovesthelord very true...
meghan216egg 2 weeks ago
He said it to Peter. Was Peter not part of the Church? He gave Peter authority in his office as Pope. And stop making the gross generalization that priests are pedophiles. Do people say that the American President is a slut because of Bill Clinton? No. And statistically there are more sexual predators among school teachers and coaches. You sound very unintelligent. Listen to yourself.
chromecrescent 1 month ago
@chromecrescent Just to address the issue of Peter as being a founder of the popes in Rome, that is something that the Roman popes took way! out of context at that time and have done so ever since. Peter was not in Rome, there was never any account of him being there, Paul yes, Peter no. I'm reading the Martyr's Mirror, not for the faint of heart and very revealing. Re: video..I absolutely do NOT approve of bikini's and my husband/male friends as well. Men's hearts should be protected.
EspritPA 1 month ago
@EspritPA Not only was Peter in Rome, he was martyred there.
chromecrescent 1 month ago
@chromecrescent Sorry, I read ahead in my theology book and you are right, Peter was martyr'd in Rome by Nero in AD 69. He was only there a short time, having done his main ministry in Jerusalem and other places where the Jews had settled. But it does say that he never discussed with them (Romans) the issues of being a bishop, much less a pope. An excellent challenge to sharpen my studies to get my facts exact!
EspritPA 1 month ago
stupid christians... live life how you want
nadams008 1 month ago
WTH is this nonsense ???
Women have the RIGHT to wear whatever they want.
Why do these Christian men have to be so prudish about everything?
If men cant control themselves then thats their problem.
TimeGod12 1 month ago
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pantherlake2002 1 month ago
So....a girl wearing spray on jeans and a boob hugging top is of more value than a girl who chooses to wear a comfy two piece swimsuit just because she's covering more? Modesty isn't all about how much skin you're showing - it's about what's motivating you to wear what you are wearing - or not.
SherlockAholic 1 month ago
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JBenjaminCooper 1 month ago
They need to tell this to the men. Because then maybe they will think twice about looking at porn sites. Especially if they would like to treat and think of women as humans and show them respect.
kellykaification 1 month ago
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!! WOOOOOOOO!!!!!! =)))
artfuldodger12 1 month ago
Yup.
God says to cover your flesh from your loins to your thighs (covering upper thighs to the knees).
God didn't intend for this to be adjustable but that is what has happened.
You got some "Christians" bending the rules to allow a shorter dress/skirt/shorts and then some like the Mormons and J.W.'s will bend it the other way as if they need to drop the length to the ankles.
Use GOD'S standard!
GodGunsGutsGlory4KJV 1 month ago
... This one is also skewed massively today in this sick cross gender world!
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
GodGunsGutsGlory4KJV 1 month ago
@GodGunsGutsGlory4KJV You have a good point, but before you start pointing fingers at other christians taking things to an extreme, you might look into what "Mormons" actually believe because I think you would be surprised. :)
cannonmb1 1 month ago
@cannonmb1
Yeah. It's surprising!
They think Jesus & Lucifer were brothers.
They think a con man 200 years ago found some tablets & his magic con man seeing stones helped him translate it.
They think everyone else was wrong until ol' Joseph appeared on the scene.
They think they should have multiple wives.
Something God NEVER EVER EVER ordained. All who did it in the Bible, disobeyed God and in EVERY case, it caused a huge problem.
So what Planet are YOU going to inherit? LOL!
GodGunsGutsGlory4KJV 1 month ago
... and if you were referring to the things that Mormon's got right, well just realize that Satan doesn't succeed with he creates a false religion from the ground up. He takes what God said and tweaks enough to corrupt it.
i.e. Catholicism, Mormonism, etc
GodGunsGutsGlory4KJV 1 month ago
@GodGunsGutsGlory4KJV whoa there. Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. It's just not Protestantism. It's not Satan's false religion.
mel5198758331 1 month ago
@mel5198758331
It is the Great Whore mentioned in Revelation.
I assure you, the Pope will be in hell along with every pope before him.
That is one sick false religion. Totally disgusting what that church pushes on people.
It's sad that anyone believes it. What they do is counter the KJV Bible.
GodGunsGutsGlory4KJV 1 month ago
@GodGunsGutsGlory4KJV you are incorrect and i feel sorry for you.
"This is the rock upon which I build My Church"
QED.
chromecrescent 1 month ago
@chromecrescent
That wasn't the Catholic CULT!
And "church" in the KJV just means "congregation of believers".
Not some place where a pervert POPE will dictate that clergy can't marry, to call clergy fathers (counter what Jesus said), baptize babies, confess to a pedophile in the box, etc etc etc.
GodGunsGutsGlory4KJV 1 month ago
@GodGunsGutsGlory4KJV yea, the 2000 year old Church is Satan's handiwork. yep, Satan is obviously more powerful than God.
Fool.
chromecrescent 1 month ago
@GodGunsGutsGlory4KJV
I find you repulsively rude. Grow up.
drewnicholsmusic 1 month ago
@GodGunsGutsGlory4KJV Lol!! Like I said, maybe you should take the time to find out what they really believe. ;) Until then, have a good one!
cannonmb1 1 month ago
Before you go making judgmental comments about what Mormons think people should wear, actually find out what they think. Your criteria of "upper thighs to the knees" is pretty much identical to the Brigham Young University honor code requirement that "dresses, skirts, and shorts must be knee-length or longer"
annoyingbookworm 1 month ago
Amen!! Woman are treated like they dress. Dress modestly and be respected! God Bless you Jason for such God Honoring Words!!!!
niki2717 1 month ago 2
@bomac10000 But of course he fails to understand that suicide is forbidden in all religions :) As is killing any innocent soul. Bomac10000 I like what you are doing here. I enjoy reading your comments. Thanks.
feyza1993 2 months ago
Tienes el video en español? o subtitulado?
Normaisabelara 2 months ago
The simplest fact of this is: no one should be pressured to dress one way or the other just for the sake of the immature, the hormonal and the objectifying. We don't make our decisions based on how some stranger will react. We wear what we are comfortable wearing, and if that's a one-piece or a two-piece or a baggy t-shirt and sweats, then that is an individual's decision. We don't dress to "send out a message" or "advertise", and if men objectify then it's their mindset that needs changing.
thetypewriterisholy 2 months ago 2
@thetypewriterisholy The point of the video was to create the understanding that you do send out a message, accidental or otherwise, based on how you dress, groom, act, speak etc. and that people react to you based on that message. If you choose to dress provocatively and then ask "Why aren't men reacting to me as a person of value and worth?" A primary reason may be because you communicated to them that your main value lies in your body, and not in your mind or personality.
bomac10000 2 months ago 2
@thetypewriterisholy That's not a fact in any sense of the word, its an opinion.
4321marts 1 month ago
@thetypewriterisholy Amen. I agree with you. We focus on how women are always be blame for the actions and thoughts of men. If men are raised to respect women they will not think like this. However they are not. If they have a sister they are allowed to spy on her in the shower and parents say "Oh that's ok its natural" Well what you are really teaching your son and daughter is that women are object to be leered at and they do not deserve privacy.
kellykaification 1 month ago
@thetypewriterisholy I completely agree. If women choose to wear bikini's, that's their choice, because it typically makes them feel sexy! I'm a Catholic guy, & I think the female body is beautiful & sexy. It is the MENTALITY of something that can twist what God has made beautiful. Before Adam & Eve fell from grace, THEY were NAKED! & it was a beautiful thing, not filthy! It's the world that has taken nudity & made it dirty!
Thrasher51590 1 month ago
@Thrasher51590 But bro, when adam and eve fell from grace, we all did. The first thing they did after the fall was cover up
Lukelovesthelord 3 weeks ago
@thetypewriterisholy But I also RESPECT women for the PEOPLE they are, not just for their bodies. Men want to feel sexy for their wives & women want to feel sexy fro their husbands, after & BEFORE they are married. Looks ARE important, but WHO the person IS is MORE important. It's very difficult these days not to cross the line between admiration, & lust. But GOD is the one Who will guide us to show us TRUE beauty, and to keep our minds pure & to see His beauty in all.
Thrasher51590 1 month ago
@Thrasher51590 yes, but there is a godly way to attract, as defined in the Bible, by putting on good works, and an ungodly way, which is also defined in the Bible.
Lukelovesthelord 3 weeks ago
@thetypewriterisholy First off, I'm a Christian young man and I would like to think I'm not one of the "immature", "hormonal", and "objectifying" men you're referring to. However, there is serious danger in what you're advocating. Christian women, PLEASE do not wear things that draw attention to your body. I am doing my best to keep my mind and heart pure for my future wife but we Christian men need your help as well. Please do your part so as not tobe a stumbling block.
oytboy 1 month ago 4
@oytboy You are a pathetic excuse for a man. Women can dress however they want; your fear of your own natural urges is no concern of theirs.
TenWhoWereTaken 2 weeks ago
@oytboy the thing is, is that it is in the mans sinful nature to be like that, dosent mean your immature, it simply means we are full of sin no matter what. i agree with you in woman should not wear them but i also strongly believe that if your covenant is as strong as it should be with god you wont be as easily tempted.
meghan216egg 2 weeks ago
@eveningbuzz So, I think in this situation here, I think it is your duty as a human being, if you even fathom the idea of there being a different way of living, to think about the consequences of you not following your instincts to do the research of the meaning of life. How about you try researching the different religions out there, and then coming back to me to honestly, and genuinely criticize my beliefs. How is that for a challenge?
feyza1993 2 months ago
@eveningbuzz I'm in university, studying Public Affairs and Policy Management, specializing in Public Policy and Administration - it won't be the least bit exaggeration when I say I am very aware of my surrounding, and the facts of life. What I learn, how I evolve, my perceptions and their advancement are all in parallel with what I study, and coincide perfectly with my religious beliefs and doctrines. I've found Islam after research, I'm not a blind follower.
feyza1993 2 months ago
People need to realize that despite whether it is a question of dressing less or more, women are always self-conscious of how they look, no matter who they are trying to impress. And I say this as a woman. We live in a society where both sexes coexist, and we must be considerate of the opposite sex. That goes for men too, who must also cover, but it is important to note, their greatest covering is their eyelids. But in this video, the target audience is women, therefore that is irrelevant.
feyza1993 2 months ago
@ldslaurel16 You are right, but that's irrelevant here, since the target audience is women in this video. Also, it is important to note that the covering of a man is his eyelids. In the Quran actually, the modesty of men has been addressed before the modesty of women. They must dress loosely and cover from the belly to knees, and that's saying something. But again, this fact is irrelevant to the video above.
feyza1993 2 months ago
Objectification of women doesn't mean women need to change their clothes, it means that there is something fundamentally messed up with the way that men view women. If I need a turtleneck to be respected as an equal, I think there's something seriously wrong with the man I'm speaking to.
thetypewriterisholy 2 months ago 2
@thetypewriterisholy To say there is something messed up in a man because of how his brain (not him) reacts to a woman dressed in her underwear is like saying there is something wrong with salivating when a meal is put in front of you. Its a reaction to a stimulus, and teaches you if you want to provoke that reaction, then dress accordingly. If you want to access the innate goodness, kindness, act accordingly as well.
bomac10000 2 months ago
@bomac10000 That's far too simplistic. We're humans, our brains are supposed to be what set us apart from other animals. The fact that we don't have to be slaves to our biological desires and hormones. If society didn't teach men to objectify women, this so-called "brain reaction" wouldn't be an issue at all. We're not biologically made to ogle at nudity. The mentality that there's something dangerous or obscene about a woman's body is ridiculous.
thetypewriterisholy 2 months ago 2
@thetypewriterisholy "Dangerous or obscene?" Please state where that is said or inferred in the presentation? Those are your words injected into the discussion. NO ONE, is saying that.
Can we agree on that to start?
bomac10000 2 months ago
I'm absolutely amazed that the question would even seriously be considered! If 'the great commission' was to become like the world around us, we could just about say, "Mission accomplished"!!
clintonforgood 2 months ago
Saudi-women-attractive-eyes-forced-cover-resolution-passed
If you search for the above words, you will probably find the article of what happens when women are allowed to take the blame for men's lack of holiness.
Archaewok1 2 months ago
@bomac10000 Men are not hard-wired to look at the nude female form as a sex object, but most men wouldn't know any different because they havent had any experience otherwise. Talk to some male doctors who have had some experience in delivery rooms. Overall, they would tell you that they don't get hot and heavy when they are at work. Why? Because the female body isn't inherently a sex object. Men aren't "born this way;" they are "raised this way." But you don't have experience to know otherwise.
Archaewok1 2 months ago 2
@Archaewok1 Nice opinion, not supported by the scientific study. Male doctors are taught to depersonalize a female by using draping, formless gowns, and screens to separate the bottom from the top of the female form, and from the legs down to minimize the effect of the female form on the man. On a regular basis, issues arise for exactly the reasons stated in the video. You state the female form is not sexually attractive to the man unless otherwise taught to be so? Please sight evidences?
bomac10000 2 months ago
Men are also wearing underwear on the beach, but I guess that's not an issue. The issue is always how we're perceived by men, not that men and women are taught that women's values lie in their appearance and how much sex they appear to or are having. I cannot WAIT to have children to teach them that their self-worth can be measured by how they treat others and what they do with their lives.
theoriginalloodle 2 months ago 2
@theoriginalloodle Correct on both counts, but this is not about self worth, this is about perception. If you teach a girl that she does not have to show a lot of skin to get attention, and that the attention she will get under those circumstances is not the attention she wants, she will be well armed for the circumstance.
bomac10000 2 months ago
@bomac10000. How can you possibly compare my argument of 'looking at a picture of a woman from the neck down' to 'getting danced on at a strip club'? I'm talking about women in clothing with no facial features, you are talking about live naked women with physical interaction. Perhaps this is why people don't respect you, your religion, or this "Christian science." Bending words does not make an argument. Completely outlandish. I'm sad to be associated with any of you. Wake up.
taco314159 2 months ago 2
@taco314159 You stated that in the study men viewed women as objects because the head was cropped, allowing men to see them not as human. My point is that headless/faceless or not, men react to the unclothed female form (as in a strip club) in the same manner, and that leaving the head off makes absolutely no difference. You then state this is "Christian science", the STUDY WAS FROM PRINCETON, sighted in a Catholic publication. Sorry you don't like the truth, but that doesn't change it.
bomac10000 2 months ago
This is what happens when Christianity doesn't allow, accept or acknowledge homosexuals. You get 10% of a religion that is in the closet.
taco314159 2 months ago
I think its kind of funny that chastity.com is blocked at my catholic school for sexual content...back to the topic...i always wear a long sleeve rash guard and cute kneelengh board shorts over my non bikini bathing suit for modesty but also for protection from the sun...my skinis really bad and I dont need it to get worse
dontpugme 2 months ago
Sadly, alot of girls don't get it. Alot of girls choose clothes thinking about what looks cute - which is OK. But they don't realize the guy isn't thinking, "Hey, that flower strapless top is totally cute with that pink miniskirt." They're thinking of what their animal instincts draw them to.
sighingheart 2 months ago
@sighingheart Who would think it was cute? Another woman! Are you saying a woman is not aware of what a man thinks when he looks at her? Never met a woman over 18 that didn't get that. Truth is most women understand what will get a mans attention, what they want to control, that they cannot, is the type of attention they will get.
bomac10000 2 months ago
@Kagome811: that's right. Women only wear stuff based on comfort and convenience considerations, not worrying at all how others perceive them. In fact that's how the whole multi-billion fashion and beauty products industries operate. Right
kilobamya 2 months ago
I don't even know what to say. You guys, women DO NOT dress for men! I'm going to wear whatever the hell I want, as long as I like wearing it and I'm comfortable. When I get ready to go out every day, I don't look at my clothes and think, "Well, gee, what will the GUYS like?" No. I'm thinking, "What do I think I will feel comfortable in today?"
Kagome811 2 months ago
@Kagome811 'No. I'm thinking, "What do I think I will feel comfortable in today?"' Yeah, if that were true, why in the world do women wear crappy designer shoes that hurt their feet?
gortat4 2 months ago
@gortat4 Comfort can also mean just feeling good in what we're wearing. I don't wear designer shoes, but when I wear heels with an outfit I like it makes me feel good. I could care less what guys think of that outfit. Believe me, our worlds don't revolve around guys' perceptions of us. (There are always exceptions, but for the most part, I am speaking the truth.)
Kagome811 2 months ago
@Kagome811 What complete and utter nonsense...ever been out to a club before?
bomac10000 2 months ago
@bomac10000 No I haven't. But I think you're missing my point. Yes, women like to look good. But no, we do not dress for men. We dress for impressions. If I'm going to a job interview I'm obviously not going to wear a miniskirt with high heels, because I most likely won't get hired. But if I am at the beach, I'm not going to cover up just because some men might lack the control they should have when looking at a half-naked woman. Ever been to a European nudist beach? No one gives a fuck.
Kagome811 2 months ago 2
@Kagome811 There are nude beaches in NJ, my buddies used to go there to get some. Why,because a naked woman is sending a message, and its not about comfort. Also, its not about control, no man is going to DO anything to you-never was that ever mentioned, and if you don't care how you are perceived, thats fine, but when you meet one of these men, or get friendly you should understand that his focus is on your body because you have shown yo don't respect it enough to keep it partially clothed
bomac10000 2 months ago
@bomac10000 Just because I may want to wear a shorter skirt than normal one day doesn't mean I don't respect my body. And I understand that society has morphed these ideas into what they are but that doesn't mean that I'm going to go with it. Equality for both genders, you know? It goes for men, too. If a man can walk around shirtless, that's great. But why are women so indecent to expose? Breasts are the same on both genders, women just have more tissue. You know?
Kagome811 2 months ago
@Kagome811 Your the 100th person to turn this into an equality issue, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EQUALITY!! Watch the video again, listen to what the speaker is saying, go step by step..then review the important points he is making..
bomac10000 2 months ago
@bomac10000 LOL okay, I'm done seeing your comments popping up in my notifications. I'm not an object whether I'm naked or fully clothed from head-to-toe, and NO man should think otherwise. You will always be a misogynist no matter what you wear. Head down to that nudist beach of yours and go see if you can "get some" while spouting these 'brilliant' views of yours.
Kagome811 2 months ago
@Kagome811 If you don't get it, take it to your dad, maybe he can explain it.
bomac10000 2 months ago
@Kagome811 think about it like this, If a man wears no shirt in public will a woman get turned on? If a woman were to wear no shirt in public you can bet there are men that would be turned on.
sonicdrumm80 2 months ago
Why is it that because men can't control themselves, they can walk around without a shirt.. but women who can control themselves have to be modest? Why are we trying to punish women for men's sin?
MoonlightPlaylist 2 months ago
@MoonlightPlaylist Please state how it is that men "can't control themselves"? Your statement makes no sense in light of the video.
bomac10000 2 months ago
@bomac10000 Women have to dress a cetain way because of how men might treat or think of them, but because women can control their feelings around men, men can dress however they want.. fair? no.
MoonlightPlaylist 2 months ago
@MoonlightPlaylist Yeah, guys are just stupid.
sighingheart 2 months ago
@MoonlightPlaylist No, women can dress however they want, but if they so choose to expose a lot of skin they will affect men negatively in terms of how they are perceived. NEITHER ARE MEN IMMUNE AS TO HOW THEY ARE PERCEIVED BY WOMEN BASED ON THEIR CHOICES, BUT THAT TOPIC IS NOT COVERED HERE.
bomac10000 2 months ago
@MoonlightPlaylist What has fairness got to do with anything? The truth of the matter is you can make whatever choice you want, but you take the consequences that go along with them. Step off a cliff thats a choice, you are free to make it, fall to your death thats a consequence. Gravity is not"fair" gravity doesn't care about fair..Show a bunch of skin to a man, men will respond based on how they are wired, its not stupid, it just is how it is.
bomac10000 2 months ago
@bomac10000 Soo. what are men doing about modesty..? or what are men doing to help their sisters? I don't think we should teach girls to dress a certain way for men, either scantly or fully covered. That puts their self esteem on men and not themselves, tell them to dress that way for their own value.
MoonlightPlaylist 2 months ago
Don't you think there MIGHT be a difference between looking at a bikini for a tenth of a second and continuing to look for 20 seconds or so? Don't you think that MIGHT be enough time to reengage the brain so you're thinking like a human being again? ANYONE can be a sex object for a fraction of a second. But NORMAL people don't keep their brains shut off for very long.
LarryH54 2 months ago
@LarryH54 Larry, he is not talking about "thinking", but about the immediate reaction biologically programmed into men. Of course a man can chose not to think any thought he wants, but as long as a woman chooses to show her body in that fashion a mans brain will continue to "light up" in unhealthy ways. If you don't want to be objectified, no not create the circumstances under which you will be.Make any decision you want, but you don't get to choose what goes along with that.(the reaction)
bomac10000 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@1college07
A woman's body is SO precious, it should be treated like a TREASURE hidden for only a husband to discover.
clintonforgood 2 months ago
Amen!!!!!!! A woman's body is SO precious, it should be treated like a TREASURE hidden for only a husband to discover.
clintonforgood 2 months ago
@1college07 There is NO ONE in this video TELLING ANYONE what they "should or should not" wear. He is pointing out that scientific studies show that if a woman wears a bikini a man will see her as an object rather than a person. No one said anything about makeup (completely off topic), no one is talking about what men should or should not do (off topic), or covering up beauty (as if a womans beauty COULD be covered), this is about exposure and objectification and how they go hand in hand.
bomac10000 2 months ago
I will give credit to the study he cited so many times only if the study was also performed on images of one-peice or tankini suits. I'm willing to bet that if a man is shown a picture of an attractive female, with her head cropped out, wearing a typical form fitting one piece the results would be almost identical.
amaunet1620 3 months ago
@amaunet1620 I would agree, and good point. If we are here to assist each other in our journey home to our Heavenly Father, our awareness of how we affect each other is incredibly important. Sometimes the most loving decision we can make is to understand that we are "Our Brothers Keeper".
bomac10000 3 months ago
Should a woman be dressed to kill a man's obedience to God? See the video called "What Women Want is Worship".
vincent15641 3 months ago
This guy is an idiot. Does nobody else have a problem with a male telling a bunch of females what they should and shouldn't wear? Girls should wear whatever they want. If society analyzed everything to the extent that this guy does we would all have to stay in our own homes every day and never go out in public. What about males? Why didn't this guy tell the females what happens when a male wears a speed o? What a complete waste of time this video is.
joelnazzy 3 months ago
@joelnazzy He NEVER says what they should or shouldn't wear. He is pointing out that what is worn (in this case by a woman) affects a man in ways they may not be aware of, or intended. And if so, does the woman (in this case as a Christian) WANT to be seen in that fashion? Is that good information to know, or not is the only relevant follow up question. No, its not politically correct, but it is the truth.
bomac10000 3 months ago
I have a question. I have always been brought up to not wear revealing bathing suits, and when I bought my own clothing and as 18 was allowed to wear what I wanted. I did choose to wear bikinis, but I found myself very uncomfortable, when before as a teen I would have gladly traded my tankini or one piece. Now, saying that, I have been recently married. Would it be wrong if I wore a bikini when I am with my husband? Most swimsuits do not fit me well, and that is my biggest hassle.
majacelynrae 3 months ago
im a woman. i know that most women are somewhat concerned with what men think of them, especially how they look. this guy was informing a room full of women exactly what that is when she is wearing a bikini. i know for myself, if i were looking for someone to love me, i wouldnt want to attract a man sexually by what im "not" wearing. i would rather attract him by my actions, and personality, as well as looking pretty(not sexy). no girl in their right mind wants to look like a sex item.
gabriellecrouse 3 months ago 12
That is the opinion of a man. Did it ever occur to anyone to ask women what they feel confortable wearing ? This guy wants women to appeal to his own liking in his own perception of women. Two piece, one piece, or covered from head to toe is only women business.
huertasdanny 3 months ago
@huertasdanny 1. The question was asked by a woman- "Is it modest to wear a bikini?"-so they ASKED for his opinion. 2. The answer is the result of a scientific study, NOT his own opinion-not what he likes, wants, or desires in a woman. 3. As a christian what you wear IS your own business, as are the consequences. 4. The audien is a Christian audience at a university, so the topic is completely reasonable.
bomac10000 3 months ago
@huertasdanny Last time I checked, we live in a world where men and women coexist. Whether we want to or not, we have to be considerate of the opposite sex. As much as it is better for me to cover, the covering of a man is his eyelids, remember that. The world doesn't evolve around your likings. There are facts we have to face and put up with, and that's a reality check for you.
feyza1993 2 months ago
@feyza1993 Now that was dead on.
bomac10000 2 months ago
Please don't be such prudes, women are not getting raped because of the clothes they wear, women get raped because they had the bad luck of being near a psicopath at the wrong time. Stop this ridiculous victim blaming, it makes me sad to think that we share a species.
longichis 3 months ago
@longichis It is not about rape, it IS about what you want a man to see in you. Do you want to be liked for your mind, your attributes, your personality or do you want to be desired for your body? Because what you where will tell the man what how you want to be seen.
bomac10000 3 months ago
it's clear to me that the solution to all of this is to give your kids a choice: you can leave the house in either a) eskimo fur, fully clad with mittens snd mukluks; or b) a padded sumo suit. so far all my girls have all opted for the eskimo fur. really, they weren't hard to coerce once i taught them that sunlight will melt their skin until it drips from their flesh like salt water taffy. it's amazing what homeschooling can accomplish.
gaozhi2007 3 months ago
@ldslaurel16 No need to apologize, its good to get things on the table. You could better understand that while this has a cultural aspect it is not the central aspect of the discussion. Our job as Christians is to follow Christ, no more or less. Our job is to love as he loved, and all the he gives us is for us to develop love. You can either help that along or focus on you. In this life, we learn and develop by sacrifice and service. How does that show up in your daily choices of apparrel?
bomac10000 3 months ago
@ldslaurel16 You are listening to everyone but the people you should, read your "For The Strength of Youth Pamphlet" The Lord delights in the chastity of women, if that is true, who is it you are trying to please?? God gives commandments for our happiness, he wants his daughters to follow him, understanding that if they do, they will find not temporary things, but true Joy. Desires to be as the rest of the world now is will never bring you that..
bomac10000 3 months ago
@ldslaurel16 No, they are doing it because they fail to understand why its wrong, or do, and choose not to see it because they like the style. The allure of the world has overcome them.
Both are equally important, you cannot pick one over the other, God tells us that "all things are spiritual" unto him. So modesty is held in the same esteem as the saving ordinances BECAUSE YOU CANNOT BE WORTHY FOR ONE IF YOU ARE IGNORING THE OTHER. All other arguments there are irrelevent.
bomac10000 3 months ago
@ldslaurel16 You have been sold the utter nonsense the world is peddling. The world has created a "new value", the value of immodesty as normal, and a problem only for men, but one in which it is entirely in their hands to change. Insomuch as you inhabit the same world as men it behooves you to take into consideration who and what they are in a kind and loving way. You are your brothers keeper, God has an expectation of you in that regard that cannot be dismissed simply because you want it to be
bomac10000 3 months ago
@ldslaurel16 Bottom line, Laurel, do you want to wear a bikini?
bomac10000 3 months ago
It would be nice if we addressed the male responsibility here rather than blaming it all on women. Sure, if you don't want to be seen as a slut, don't dress like one, but really? Learn some self-control, guys. I understand instinctive reactions can't be controlled, but the way you handle them certainly can. I'm tired of hearing that it's the woman's job to be modest. It's the man's job to be respectful and master his libido.
finch719 3 months ago
@finch719 It would be, but that wasn't the topic spoken about to the FEMALE AUDIENCE at this college. The question asked by a woman was, "should christian women wear a bikini?" The answer addresses how a male perceives a woman dressed in a bikini. Yes, you can handle the reaction, but that is irrelevant, because the way you dress has already sent an essential message to the man. Fact is, wise women dress modestly, because they want to accentuate their personalities, not draw focus to their body
bomac10000 2 months ago
As some others have said, the study he references appears broken to begin with. If the women in bikinis don't have their heads shown, the pictures are already dehumanized. Not to mention, these pictures were shown to men who were probably familiar with porn to begin with, and had been taught by society and the church they may have gone to that the body is a sex object inherently (church- don't look at it because it's a sex object). That said, what did they expect to find? They raised those minds
Archaewok1 3 months ago
@Archaewok1 Whether a body has a head on it or not is irrelevant, everyone knows that the human body in its female form belongs to a female. The point of the study is that men react to that in its unclothed form. Again, how many men who witness an unclothed woman look at the body go "Wow, I would LOVE to get know her personality, its gotta be amazing". Really, if you don't want to believe it then don't, you can learn the same lesson every other woman learns the hard way about men.
bomac10000 2 months ago
The key part of this lecture that is not expounded upon at all is the fact that the the image of bikini-clad women that men identify as tools rather than people are from the neck down. There are no faces on these photos. It is that dehumanization that is causing men to not think of them as people. Not the fact that they are wearing less clothing.
Without the most human attribute on the pictures, it is no wonder why they are seen as things rather than people. Another dumb twisting of science
taco314159 3 months ago
@taco314159 Thank you, I could not agree more and thought the same thing. If anything, it's the people running the study that had a dehumanized view of women. I'm not advocating that women bare all, but let's be real here, that same "tool" thought process can occur when a women is fully clothed and women can feel the same way about men when they're fully clothed too. C.S. Lewis addressed this topic well in "Mere Christianity", read that before running away with this video people.
EarthquakeStar 3 months ago
@taco314159 So you think that adding a face NEGATES the effect an essentially naked woman would have on a man? You've never gone to a strip club have you? I challenge you to go in and see HOW ENGAGED the men there are with the FACES and PERSONALITIES of the women as they disrobe. AND THE WOMEN KNOW AND COUNT on that effect in order to make money. WAKE UP, this study is dead on...or go ahead and learn the hard way, really your choice.
bomac10000 2 months ago
Why is it that the people who don't understand the concept must resort to profanity and ridicule to make an argument?
cabuescher 3 months ago
and women the wonder why they get rate .
hmfreek 3 months ago
@hmfreek if you mean *RAPE, nobody deserves to get raped, men need to learn self control...and the spell check button...
jessicaisraad 3 months ago
@ldslaurel16 Its not "thinking" thats being addressed. He said "the area of a mans brain that lights up is the area having to do with tool use" even when exposed to a picture of a woman for an infinitely small amount of time. Thats not about thought, its about reaction, its about how something hits a man at a primal level. That does not mean he cannot look away or choose another thought, it is about what his FIRST thought WILL be because of how he is constructed by God physically.
bomac10000 3 months ago
@bomac10000 Again, brilliantly put. I think we're all forgetting that it's that same reaction to seeing a woman (or man) that eventually makes the wedding night the "wedding night" and is responsible for our very existence through conception and birth LoL. It's part of our design and God wants us to control it, not banish it or criticize it, in either gender. That's why we're told to marry, because that urge would be useful to reproduce and express love to our spouse.
EarthquakeStar 3 months ago
This guy actually sparked quite a controversy
Jylesa 3 months ago
@Jylesa LoL he did at that.
EarthquakeStar 3 months ago
HA. This was at my school.
Jylesa 3 months ago
So I should plan my outfits around what is least distracting for men? meh.
Eliz279009 3 months ago
I for one am tired of only always seeing modesty subjects being addressed toward women-Modesty is for men too. We women struggle with lust too ya know.
YESHUAISMERCIFUL 3 months ago
@YESHUAISMERCIFUL islam adresses this issue, thats why muslim men are required to cover them selves modestly with loose clothing, such that their private regions are not protruding outwards. e.g loose garments like robes, this can be seen in the middle east where men wear loose long white garments (white=a pure colour, a colour of peace), the same can even be seen in paintings created by christians of jesus christ, so too his mother mary....just like muslim women *MODEST*
Darknss2Light 3 months ago
@QcatDoesGames has no smart women in his life, let alone any woman. A real man doesn't need to objectify woman. A real man can see a woman for what she is and take value in the fact they cared enough about their body, to keep it sacred. The world doesn't need to see naked women, the world needs to see strong women removing themselves as sex objects.
Sincerely,
A Real Man.
adamgalelds 3 months ago 32
@ldslaurel16 What you're endorsing is mind control, which is incredibly stupid. The reason we have survived as a species is because of the male sex drive. What you're suggesting is no better than me saying "I respect that women would like to be appreciated more for their mind. But I think they should fight that instead of complaining all the time. The smart women in my life agree with me."
I don't care who agrees with you. Forcing an entire gender to stop thinking certain thoughts is moronic.
QcatDoesGames 3 months ago
Wow... When you parade your milk bags around all I think about is titty fucking. We really needed to dedicate money to a study that correlates us men into looking like pigs, yet again. Oh well.
BobDoleNSatanRmyniGz 3 months ago