@Matt24ishere others demand execution. But the pride you probably have on your belief that the bible is a divine moral "guide" blinds you from seeing that. I don't think you are free. I think your whole rationale is full of double standards, cherry-picking (according to your level of sadomasoquism)... Dishonesty in general. There are many verses backing up genocide, infanticide, abuse of children, homicide, slavery, women as posessions (like having a house) and being extremely inferior,..
@Matt24ishere discussion. The "man" and "beds" translation fit into many contexts. "Effeminate"? Would you really worship a hypothetical god in which you want to believe by faith that condemns what he creates in omniscience and omnipotence? Effeminates? Where do hormones, genes, and biology fit here? The creation of your god... I totally agree that there is no bible verse backing up that a man should have sex with other men. I do think there are verses that do not condemnt it either, while
@Matt24ishere The bible was written by ignorant men in the ancient world and these were the projections of their fears & prejudices. I think your pride as a Christian blinds you from seeing that. You have come to think of your religion as "truth" even when u have to believe it BY FAITH. Meaning, that you don't have evidence, rational arguments or even when there's evidence against. I am an atheist and anti-theist, but I can pretend to be a bible-believing liberal Christian just for the sake of
@cre599 Much love to you. I am no better than you or anyone else, but search for Truth, by the GRace of my Father. Truth is, we all NEED salvation from our own hearts. Follow the heart, and it will lead to our own demise, and our own destruction. Just look at the state of the world and that is easy to determine.
@Matt24ishere I totally agree with you that we need salvation from the heart. But it's a different story than what you present. You have been conditioned to belief what you believe and you have decided to take these ancient texts with poetic tones and multiple problems of translation, forgery and ignorance and turn them into condemnation of human beings, because you want to believe it by faith... because it is in your heart. Your faith has settled in your heart and that is harmful.
@Matt24ishere This "heart" talk is a double standard discourse within Christians. I come from a very devoted evangelical background, with overseas missionaires and pastors in my close and extended family... They do this "heart" sermon to outsiders but within the community, the heart is so important. There is a consistent degradation of the use of rationality, though... but you have to accept "god's truth in your heart"... "by faith"... When u want 2 believe something by faith, it is in ur heart.
@Matt24ishere But I'm not going 2 leave u just like that. Suggestion: "The Sexual Spectrum" by neuropsychologist Olive S. Johnson... "Christianity, Social Tolerance & Homosexuality" by Yale expert on Medieval Studies and filology, John Boswell... "The Church & The Homosexual" by ex-catholic-now-episcopal priest and clinical psychologist John McNeill... And any study from affirming presbyterians, episcopals, lutherans, MCC... You know what? Dont read anything. They're apostates anyways XD
@cre599 my email box just blew up... so read my first statement, and you will see no prejudice in what I said. I do not feel that I am any better than any homosexual, which was in my first statement, of which I mean wholeheartedly. Paul certainly knew the concept of a man lying with another man, regardless of the modern day scientific term. I dont have any Christian pride, and do not prescribe to modern day "christian" beliefs.
@Matt24ishere ... Paul didn't know what sexual orientation is. As you say he knew what "laying with another man meant"... It meant an action for him. He didn't know what is sexual orientation and much less about its social and natural deterministic causes. You do measure good and evil. That's why you don't want to live up to the bible in its entire content. You pick and choose. You have already made an assesment; conditioned by your culture. You don't deserve any wrath... specially if that god
@cre599 I simply believe in a God outside of this creation, that has an objective ruler that measures good an evil, that my heart cannot. I know that compared to any God that knows beginning from end, and created both, that nothing I can do is worthy of Him. I believe that He sent His son to drink the wrath I deserve, as well as anyone that involves themselves in fornication, much less homosexual acts in the mind or body... regardless of sexual orientation.
@Matt24ishere ... created you in omniscience and omnipotence and set up the stage to that hypothetical "unworthy-of-Him" nature. If someone wants to forgive another person, no other alleged "innocent" person has to die. You simply forgive. I don't see that in your god. Homosexual or heterosexual acts in the mind? Your mythology accuses people of thought crime? You feel loved by a mythological figure that created an universe in omniscience and omnipotence where he set the stage for imperfection
@Matt24ishere ... And I repeat: You DONT deserve wrath. You DONT deserve to be tortured for a period of time, much less for an eternity; no matter what u believe or don't believe... Neither I. No one else deserves that. You have been brainwashed into accepting being charge the one responsible for the negligent creation of a hypothetical improbable mythological figure. Honest reasoning doesn't occur where there is fear, guilt, blackmailing, extortion, demonization, prejudices and misinformation.
@cre599 lets let all the people out of the prisons.....no police department either! away with the courts....lets all do what we want...because we don't deserve that kind of wrath either!
@shanana000 ... Missed the point. Wot does eternal torture fixes? It will protect us of, wot exactly? Ur imaginary omniscient & omnipotent friend has an infinity of possibilities & she chose eternal torture. That's pure sadism. Let's do all we want? U want 2 do bad things 2 others? Is that wot u want? So, fear of eternal torture is the thing that prevents u from doing it. Nice. That's says a lot of wot kind of person you are. Luckily, Im not u.
@cre599 p3)Because I believe this, I have stopped being a slave to my own hearts desires, and feel a huge weight lifted, and I feel loved. I know something must be done to even out the evil of this world, and I believe that in the "end" God will do that. You wouldnt like a judge that lets a serial killer off the hook, well God's not going to let anything off the hook.
@Matt24ishere ... and blame us for his omniscient and omnipotent BAD designs... and set us to eternal torture by default because that's what your god wanted... In the "end" your god will end evil? What is he waiting for? Anyways, your god created it in first place! (Isaiah 45:7) ... She (your god) seems at ease with evil for the last 14 billion years. In the fairytale of Job, for example, he even seems more preoccupied with the devil's opinion than for the well-being of Job...
@Matt24ishere ... I agree with you about the serial killers thing. Yup. It's bad. You know. Killing people around and making it unsafe for the rest of us. It threatens the stability and well-being of society.... But homosexuality? On what grounds you dare to compare homosexuals with serial killers? This is a huge problem of theology. It's disproportionate and call things "evil" through the arbitrary methods of mythological "revelations", believed by faith.
@cre599 p4)Homosexuality is not worthy of Holiness, like any other human desire. God loves us so, that He has shown us a way to not be a slave to desires, and to love one another. Just because most of the "mainstream chrisitanity" is as tainted as any other human thing, ala Jesus Himself said of the religion of the day, doesnt mean the words of Christ and the Word of God are. We cant base the Word of God on the fruits of Humans.
@Matt24ishere ... Where did she (your god) showed a way to love one another? In her best-seller? The bible? If we can't base the so-called "word of god" on the fruits of humans, then it's time you discard the bible, because it is the fruit of humans. Yet, even if I granted (I dont) that interpretations opposed to your interpretation of the texts are "fruits of humans", you'd have to face the reality that YOUR interpretation is a fruit of humans... It's a double standard everywhere.
@Matt24ishere ... "The End of Biblical Studies" by bible scholar Hector Avalos... "Farewell to God" by Canadian ex-televangelist Charles Templeton... "Why I Became An Atheist: A former preacher rejects Christianity" by theologian John W. Loftus... "The Empty Tomb: Jesus Beyond The Grave" edited by theologian Robert M. Price... But you know what? Don't read anything. They're also apostates :/ :P Is that the method you use? Demonization?
@cre599 p5)We are in the situation we are because humans dont follow the word of God, and measure good and evil on our own, ala the garden of eden. Therefore we eat the fruit thereof and must forever deal with the consequences as that tree has grown so huge, we cant see anything different now. I fear God, as my Father, and therefore I love you and every homosexual, heterosexual, what ever... I have fallen from the Grace of God as anyone else.
@Matt24ishere ... and... “Homosexuality & Christian community” edited by Choon Leong Seow.. “A question of truth: Christianity & homosexuality” by Gareth Moore
@Matt24ishere ...If I granted your hypothetical god (I dont), then I'd say we are in the situation we are because your god created this universe the way he wanted it to be.. (Isaiah 45:7).. It's soooo fortunate for society that we don't live up to what mythologists call the "word of god". It would be disastrous. Have you read your bible??? Oh, I guess you do. I guess you read the psalms, Jesus parables & the things you want to impose.. What you dont like is irrelevant. I guess. Double standard!
@Matt24ishere ... What did you study about Christianity? Propagandistic, double-standard materials? You should swim a little in the field of bible criticism, bible scholars, philosophy of religion vs. philosophy of science, history of the biblical texts, evolution of the christian doctrines... history of the church and its political results... I mean; It's a hairy monster everywhere you grab it... so I'm sorry, but I dont think you have studied it enough. Oh...
@cre599 lastly, I studied all faiths, except islam (other than the history of islam)... I come from a very eclectic background, and was not brainwashed or conditioned to believe that Christ saved me from my sins. If anything the opposite is true. I methodically, logically searched for truth, as I have always believed I need salvation from my wicked heart. I found truth in Jesus Christ and the Words of the Holy Bible. I studied Christianity very skeptically to be honest. I came from the world.
@Matt24ishere Other sources ppl here, except Matt XD, can consult R: “The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology” by Mark Jordan.. “Disorienting sexuality: psychoanalytic reappraisals of sexual identities” edited by Thomas Domenici.. “Homosexuality in the church” edited by Jeffrey S. Siker.. “The Boswell thesis: essays on Christianity, social tolerance & homosexuality” edited by Mathew Kuefler..
@Matt24ishere .. Yes, you have been brainwashed. First by culture (if you live in Christian U.S.), probably parenting and family socialization, and finally by fear, blackmail, manipulation. You have studied all faiths? I dont believe you. That's a task that would take more than a whole life. Methodically searched for truth? What was your method? Believing something by faith? Meaning, believing something without evidence, without rational arguments and even in the face of evidence against?
@Matt24ishere ... Im sorry. I dont think you were skeptical enough. How long you've been a Christian? Well, I am 27 now and was a devoted Evangelical Christian for most of my life. I've just turned outspoken about my disbelief in the last 2 years; but the process took like 6 years. I evolved from a fundamentalist Christian like you, to being more liberal, and more liberal 'til I had to face fundamental problems. I just realized my faith was unsustainable and my peace & happiness was compromised.
@Matt24ishere .. Let me suggest you some books... "Forged" & "Misquoting Jesus", both by acclaimed bible scholar Bart Ehrman... Read any bible dictionary on the origin of the texts... "Why the Jews Rejected Jesus" by David Klinghoffer... "The lost history of Christianity" by historian Philip Jenkins... "The Bible: A Biography" by Karen Armstrong... "The Evolution of God" by Robert Wright.. "Religion Explained" by Pascal Boyer...
1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals". FACT
This man is a role model to me. Jay has so much love in his heart, and it is a shame some people can't see that. He is not in the least bit selfish....total opposite. He has his mom's heart, that is for sure.
@Matt24ishere others demand execution. But the pride you probably have on your belief that the bible is a divine moral "guide" blinds you from seeing that. I don't think you are free. I think your whole rationale is full of double standards, cherry-picking (according to your level of sadomasoquism)... Dishonesty in general. There are many verses backing up genocide, infanticide, abuse of children, homicide, slavery, women as posessions (like having a house) and being extremely inferior,..
cre599 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere discussion. The "man" and "beds" translation fit into many contexts. "Effeminate"? Would you really worship a hypothetical god in which you want to believe by faith that condemns what he creates in omniscience and omnipotence? Effeminates? Where do hormones, genes, and biology fit here? The creation of your god... I totally agree that there is no bible verse backing up that a man should have sex with other men. I do think there are verses that do not condemnt it either, while
cre599 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere The bible was written by ignorant men in the ancient world and these were the projections of their fears & prejudices. I think your pride as a Christian blinds you from seeing that. You have come to think of your religion as "truth" even when u have to believe it BY FAITH. Meaning, that you don't have evidence, rational arguments or even when there's evidence against. I am an atheist and anti-theist, but I can pretend to be a bible-believing liberal Christian just for the sake of
cre599 11 months ago
Comment removed
cre599 11 months ago
@cre599 Much love to you. I am no better than you or anyone else, but search for Truth, by the GRace of my Father. Truth is, we all NEED salvation from our own hearts. Follow the heart, and it will lead to our own demise, and our own destruction. Just look at the state of the world and that is easy to determine.
Matt24ishere 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere I totally agree with you that we need salvation from the heart. But it's a different story than what you present. You have been conditioned to belief what you believe and you have decided to take these ancient texts with poetic tones and multiple problems of translation, forgery and ignorance and turn them into condemnation of human beings, because you want to believe it by faith... because it is in your heart. Your faith has settled in your heart and that is harmful.
cre599 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere This "heart" talk is a double standard discourse within Christians. I come from a very devoted evangelical background, with overseas missionaires and pastors in my close and extended family... They do this "heart" sermon to outsiders but within the community, the heart is so important. There is a consistent degradation of the use of rationality, though... but you have to accept "god's truth in your heart"... "by faith"... When u want 2 believe something by faith, it is in ur heart.
cre599 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere But I'm not going 2 leave u just like that. Suggestion: "The Sexual Spectrum" by neuropsychologist Olive S. Johnson... "Christianity, Social Tolerance & Homosexuality" by Yale expert on Medieval Studies and filology, John Boswell... "The Church & The Homosexual" by ex-catholic-now-episcopal priest and clinical psychologist John McNeill... And any study from affirming presbyterians, episcopals, lutherans, MCC... You know what? Dont read anything. They're apostates anyways XD
cre599 11 months ago
@cre599 my email box just blew up... so read my first statement, and you will see no prejudice in what I said. I do not feel that I am any better than any homosexual, which was in my first statement, of which I mean wholeheartedly. Paul certainly knew the concept of a man lying with another man, regardless of the modern day scientific term. I dont have any Christian pride, and do not prescribe to modern day "christian" beliefs.
Matt24ishere 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere ... Paul didn't know what sexual orientation is. As you say he knew what "laying with another man meant"... It meant an action for him. He didn't know what is sexual orientation and much less about its social and natural deterministic causes. You do measure good and evil. That's why you don't want to live up to the bible in its entire content. You pick and choose. You have already made an assesment; conditioned by your culture. You don't deserve any wrath... specially if that god
cre599 11 months ago
@cre599 I simply believe in a God outside of this creation, that has an objective ruler that measures good an evil, that my heart cannot. I know that compared to any God that knows beginning from end, and created both, that nothing I can do is worthy of Him. I believe that He sent His son to drink the wrath I deserve, as well as anyone that involves themselves in fornication, much less homosexual acts in the mind or body... regardless of sexual orientation.
Matt24ishere 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere ... created you in omniscience and omnipotence and set up the stage to that hypothetical "unworthy-of-Him" nature. If someone wants to forgive another person, no other alleged "innocent" person has to die. You simply forgive. I don't see that in your god. Homosexual or heterosexual acts in the mind? Your mythology accuses people of thought crime? You feel loved by a mythological figure that created an universe in omniscience and omnipotence where he set the stage for imperfection
cre599 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere ... And I repeat: You DONT deserve wrath. You DONT deserve to be tortured for a period of time, much less for an eternity; no matter what u believe or don't believe... Neither I. No one else deserves that. You have been brainwashed into accepting being charge the one responsible for the negligent creation of a hypothetical improbable mythological figure. Honest reasoning doesn't occur where there is fear, guilt, blackmailing, extortion, demonization, prejudices and misinformation.
cre599 11 months ago
@cre599 lets let all the people out of the prisons.....no police department either! away with the courts....lets all do what we want...because we don't deserve that kind of wrath either!
shanana000 7 months ago
@shanana000 ... Missed the point. Wot does eternal torture fixes? It will protect us of, wot exactly? Ur imaginary omniscient & omnipotent friend has an infinity of possibilities & she chose eternal torture. That's pure sadism. Let's do all we want? U want 2 do bad things 2 others? Is that wot u want? So, fear of eternal torture is the thing that prevents u from doing it. Nice. That's says a lot of wot kind of person you are. Luckily, Im not u.
cre599 4 months ago
@cre599 p3)Because I believe this, I have stopped being a slave to my own hearts desires, and feel a huge weight lifted, and I feel loved. I know something must be done to even out the evil of this world, and I believe that in the "end" God will do that. You wouldnt like a judge that lets a serial killer off the hook, well God's not going to let anything off the hook.
Matt24ishere 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere ... and blame us for his omniscient and omnipotent BAD designs... and set us to eternal torture by default because that's what your god wanted... In the "end" your god will end evil? What is he waiting for? Anyways, your god created it in first place! (Isaiah 45:7) ... She (your god) seems at ease with evil for the last 14 billion years. In the fairytale of Job, for example, he even seems more preoccupied with the devil's opinion than for the well-being of Job...
cre599 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere ... I agree with you about the serial killers thing. Yup. It's bad. You know. Killing people around and making it unsafe for the rest of us. It threatens the stability and well-being of society.... But homosexuality? On what grounds you dare to compare homosexuals with serial killers? This is a huge problem of theology. It's disproportionate and call things "evil" through the arbitrary methods of mythological "revelations", believed by faith.
cre599 11 months ago
@cre599 p4)Homosexuality is not worthy of Holiness, like any other human desire. God loves us so, that He has shown us a way to not be a slave to desires, and to love one another. Just because most of the "mainstream chrisitanity" is as tainted as any other human thing, ala Jesus Himself said of the religion of the day, doesnt mean the words of Christ and the Word of God are. We cant base the Word of God on the fruits of Humans.
Matt24ishere 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere ... Where did she (your god) showed a way to love one another? In her best-seller? The bible? If we can't base the so-called "word of god" on the fruits of humans, then it's time you discard the bible, because it is the fruit of humans. Yet, even if I granted (I dont) that interpretations opposed to your interpretation of the texts are "fruits of humans", you'd have to face the reality that YOUR interpretation is a fruit of humans... It's a double standard everywhere.
cre599 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere ... "The End of Biblical Studies" by bible scholar Hector Avalos... "Farewell to God" by Canadian ex-televangelist Charles Templeton... "Why I Became An Atheist: A former preacher rejects Christianity" by theologian John W. Loftus... "The Empty Tomb: Jesus Beyond The Grave" edited by theologian Robert M. Price... But you know what? Don't read anything. They're also apostates :/ :P Is that the method you use? Demonization?
cre599 11 months ago
@cre599 p5)We are in the situation we are because humans dont follow the word of God, and measure good and evil on our own, ala the garden of eden. Therefore we eat the fruit thereof and must forever deal with the consequences as that tree has grown so huge, we cant see anything different now. I fear God, as my Father, and therefore I love you and every homosexual, heterosexual, what ever... I have fallen from the Grace of God as anyone else.
Matt24ishere 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Matt24ishere ... and... “Homosexuality & Christian community” edited by Choon Leong Seow.. “A question of truth: Christianity & homosexuality” by Gareth Moore
cre599 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere ...If I granted your hypothetical god (I dont), then I'd say we are in the situation we are because your god created this universe the way he wanted it to be.. (Isaiah 45:7).. It's soooo fortunate for society that we don't live up to what mythologists call the "word of god". It would be disastrous. Have you read your bible??? Oh, I guess you do. I guess you read the psalms, Jesus parables & the things you want to impose.. What you dont like is irrelevant. I guess. Double standard!
cre599 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere ... What did you study about Christianity? Propagandistic, double-standard materials? You should swim a little in the field of bible criticism, bible scholars, philosophy of religion vs. philosophy of science, history of the biblical texts, evolution of the christian doctrines... history of the church and its political results... I mean; It's a hairy monster everywhere you grab it... so I'm sorry, but I dont think you have studied it enough. Oh...
cre599 11 months ago
@cre599 lastly, I studied all faiths, except islam (other than the history of islam)... I come from a very eclectic background, and was not brainwashed or conditioned to believe that Christ saved me from my sins. If anything the opposite is true. I methodically, logically searched for truth, as I have always believed I need salvation from my wicked heart. I found truth in Jesus Christ and the Words of the Holy Bible. I studied Christianity very skeptically to be honest. I came from the world.
Matt24ishere 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere Other sources ppl here, except Matt XD, can consult R: “The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology” by Mark Jordan.. “Disorienting sexuality: psychoanalytic reappraisals of sexual identities” edited by Thomas Domenici.. “Homosexuality in the church” edited by Jeffrey S. Siker.. “The Boswell thesis: essays on Christianity, social tolerance & homosexuality” edited by Mathew Kuefler..
cre599 11 months ago
Comment removed
cre599 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere .. Yes, you have been brainwashed. First by culture (if you live in Christian U.S.), probably parenting and family socialization, and finally by fear, blackmail, manipulation. You have studied all faiths? I dont believe you. That's a task that would take more than a whole life. Methodically searched for truth? What was your method? Believing something by faith? Meaning, believing something without evidence, without rational arguments and even in the face of evidence against?
cre599 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere ... Im sorry. I dont think you were skeptical enough. How long you've been a Christian? Well, I am 27 now and was a devoted Evangelical Christian for most of my life. I've just turned outspoken about my disbelief in the last 2 years; but the process took like 6 years. I evolved from a fundamentalist Christian like you, to being more liberal, and more liberal 'til I had to face fundamental problems. I just realized my faith was unsustainable and my peace & happiness was compromised.
cre599 11 months ago
@Matt24ishere .. Let me suggest you some books... "Forged" & "Misquoting Jesus", both by acclaimed bible scholar Bart Ehrman... Read any bible dictionary on the origin of the texts... "Why the Jews Rejected Jesus" by David Klinghoffer... "The lost history of Christianity" by historian Philip Jenkins... "The Bible: A Biography" by Karen Armstrong... "The Evolution of God" by Robert Wright.. "Religion Explained" by Pascal Boyer...
cre599 11 months ago
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cre599 11 months ago
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cre599 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals". FACT
TheLizardKing1967 1 year ago
@TheLizardKing1967 Amen Brother !! Peach it !!!
TheLizardKing1967 11 months ago
@haboreh confess your sins to one another, pray for eachother and be healed
kingdomtheology 1 year ago
What a truthful, loving message.. thank you!
TetheredSong 1 year ago
you are so right jay..
timhere64 1 year ago
@haboreh confess to you brothers, its very biblical.
kingdomtheology 1 year ago
JAY GREW UP IN THE MIDDLE OF A HOLY WAR- So i find his take a 100% true,loving take. After all he survived pure hell in the 80-90's
AZUREE100 1 year ago
This man is a role model to me. Jay has so much love in his heart, and it is a shame some people can't see that. He is not in the least bit selfish....total opposite. He has his mom's heart, that is for sure.
Bansheeeyes78 2 years ago