I'm a Baptist, but I am an admirer of many things Orthodox. I have a resurrection icon in my room and I love the paschal hymn he referenced.
However, I would like to say that while this video very clearly shows the emphasis of each branch of the faith, I would also mention that as a Protestant I would hold to everything he said was the Orthodox view of salvation.
@Christthehopeofglory Peace mate, I was Baptist before I became Orthodox too. Have you ever considered looking deeper into the historical Christian Faith which was once delivered to the saints? Please feel free to contact me any time if you like 8)
@Ggdivhjkjl I have. On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius is one of my favorite books ever. Where are you from? I'm from Alabama and am currently attending a Baptist school in Tennessee. My email is phillipr.johnson@yahoo.com
Beautiful , That was amazing thank you. I work around a few Baptists who feel its a mission to prove Orthodoxy evil . To me this is amazing seeing how we never talk bad of other denominations in Orthodox church . I might just show this to a guy I work with who even though I think he's great he's a pain in my butt with his born again stuff .
the Orthodox view, at least as he explains it, goes directly against what Jesus said in John 5:29 -"those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned" which means if you die in your sin rejecting Christ, yes you will be resurrected, but not to face the love of God but to face the wrath of God which Jesus took upon Himself on the cross, but since you rejected what Jesus did for you then you'll have to face the wrath of God yourself.
plus, every time he says "God says" while explaining the Orthodox view, its actually Jesus saying it, thus proving the point of the Protestant view of the Gospel, which he explained very good by the way.
For a fuller explication of the above video with patristic quotes etc. Google "River of Fire, Kalomiros" A challenging read. Way too long to post here.
@sevprobinson Thats very convenient. I have alerady refuted your ridiculous assertions and quoted directly from the Church Fathers on the nature of Hell.
@Brightstar27 Yes, it is eternal. In fact, what this man teaches on the videos is NOT the historical orthodox teaching on Hell. It is an innovation from the 20th century. The Orthodox develop their theology form the Church Fathers. The Church Fathers made it perfectly clear that Hell is a place of extreme torment where prayer has no effect.
@AegeanKing Thanks for that clarification. That's very interesting becasue I have heard from many EO's that the whole idea of a torment-H.ell is a mythical western Roman invention!
@Brightstar27 Well, those EO need to go study the fathers from whom we take our theology. - "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire," they will be damned forever (Against Heresies 4:28:2 [A.D. 189]). - Saint Ireneaus
@AegeanKing and Brightstar, one can "proof text" the Fathers as well as the Scriptures. No where in the video does he mention whether hell is eternal or temporary. Nor is he teaching universalism. You should become more familiar with the Fathers then you would understand the finer nuances of what is really being taught here.
@sevpr He is teaching tha those who are damned experience Gods love like a river of fire. That is nonsense and an innovation from the 20th century. A teaching that is completely foreign to the fathers. Scripture make it clear that hell, a place made for the devil and his angels, is a place of extreme torment where prayer has no effect.
@AegeanKing, in all kindness, apparently you haven't read much of St. John, St. Basil, St. Gregory, St. Isaac, St. Silouan and others. Sorry, it is not a 20th century innovation, it is also in the scriptures.
@sevprobinson You can't throw names out there and think you have proven your point. Give specific citations. Secondly, Saint Silouan or Saint Isaac are not Church Fathers. Third, Saint John who? There are many Saint Johns. Show citations.
@sevprobinson "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies.The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual." (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252] - Saint Cyprian of Carthage
@RettaDottrina This is a Coptic Orthodox Church that is letting the priest use the Church until they have money to buy their own, and it looks like its a protestant church that was converted to Coptic because of the style of the interior (not the icons).
Thanks the news, but unfortunately many Orthodox Churches in the West are modernizing, and for example they use the benches, make ecumenism, and women no longer use the veil.
@RettaDottrina I don't know about others but for our Women are veiled in our Church, the benches does not make the church un-orthodox, and Ecumenism is good in the sense we all have unity of faith as long as we don't compromise the truth!
@VyckRo The Massacre of the Latins further caused strains between East and West church relations. And during this time of the Middle Ages the church and state were very closely knitted together. The emperor of Constantinople was viewed as the Vicar of Christ.
@VyckRo This had to do with a comment that God is not justice. Since people are created in the image of God clearly they want justice, and and the Massacre of the Latins was the response of the Greeks to the abuses of the Italians. You cannot tell me God is not justice since we are made in his image, and that is what people seek after abuses. And yes I do know about the looting of Constantinople and the failures of the Crusades. All churches have had dark moments they would like to forget.
@sevpr Your church is not a good representative of God not being justice. When I went to a local Greek Festival one of the things that they bring up is the atrocities committed to the Greeks by the Turks. If God is not justice and is not sovereign your community "should not" be bringing these issues up because who are you to say that the Turks were wrong in committing these atrocities. Your own church demanded justice when it committed the Massacre of the Latins against Italian traders.
@sevpr Your church is not a good representative of God not being justice as you present. When I went to a local Greek Festival, one of the major things the church brought up was the atrocities committed by the Turks against the Greeks. If God is not justice then your church should not be even bring these issues up because who are you to say that the Turks were wrong in committing these atrocities. Your church also showed it wanted justice when it committed the Massacer of the Latins.
@sevpr If you are saying that God is not justice, you are clearly denying that we are made in the image of God. We are created with the capacity to want justice; it is part of our being created in the image of God. The fact that we are all tainted with sin does not negate the fact that the ability to demand justice is part of the image of God that was created within us all.
There is a hell. God being a God of wrath is mentioned over 300 times in the bible. There are countless passages about hell and suffering apart from Jesus. Get real people. You take the love of God and amp it higher than his Just, Sovereign, and perfect wrathful nature. There is a hell, some of you, may see it. Bye
@bammc19 - The good ol Protestant preaching his sick deities love of death, blood and torture. Get real people, if you do your parenting the way your god rules the universe, you'd be in prison.
@sevprobinson It is universalism. It is the idea that one can reject Christ and still be saved through the love of God. This is a false teaching. The Fathers said very clearly that many people will NOT be saved. Not to mention the many parables of Christ that show that the the chaff will be burnt up and the goats will be separated from the sheep.
The monk/priest/whatever specifically says that there is no place for any soul to escape God's love. For some, those who love God and strive to obey Him, that love will be heavenly, for others that hate God and are contentious towards Him, that very same love will manifest itself as hellish to them.
Heaven and hell still exist; it's just that now they actually make sense since it's up to the person how they experience the afterlife.
@M3PanoS I perfectly understand what he is saying and what you are saying. I am saying that, that is not what the fathers taught and it is not what scripture teaches. Also, define "hate" towards God. One does not need a proactive hate towards God. One can Hate God just by putting other things before him like money or your own desires. Being unrepentant is hatred towards God. Repentance is key. The unrepentant and unbaptized go to hell. This is the teaching of the fathers.
@M3PanoS my objection is that he sounds like he is teaching that the love of God overcomes the sinner and that the sinner can just leave hell whenever he wants when he starts to love God.
@AegeanKing I guess you're right to a degree since that point is left without answer, however, the main point is that God still maintains sovereignty over the fates of all and that NO ONE will end up somewhere that they shouldn't be -and that above all else, God is the embodiment of love.
@AegeanKing This is not universalism. Indeed, the goats *will* be separated from the sheep. But this has not happened yet, and will not happen until the End and Christ returns. Heaven and Hell have not yet been established in the fullest sense. In the meantime, the afterlife is like a river of fire of God's love — to those who accept Christ and are prepared for this love, they will experience it as heaven; to those who reject Christ, it will feel extremely painful.
@Judge373 Just listen to what you are saying. It is not even logical . Gods love will make people feel pain? That is ridiculous. I can give dozens of quotes from the fathers and saints who specifically say that those who are without Christ will experience everlasting torment in hell. Your RIDICULOUS and Childish view of hell is not befitting the Gospels, the Fathers or God himself. You make God into a overbearing lover who forces his love on you whether you like it or not. ABSURD!!!
@AegeanKing None of these quotes contradict what I have stated. And I have stated that those who reject Christ and his love will be a "goat", separated from God eternally. But the ultimate end of things has not yet been completed.
Of course, God's love permeates EVERYTHING. This is because God permeates EVERYTHING. This is not absurd. It is simply reality.
@Judge373 God permeates everything?God is present in every point in spacetime. But he does not permeate everything like water on a sponge. God is necessary to uphold and sustain all of spacetime in existence. But God is not in cancer. God does permeate cigarette butts or human waste. You are treading dangerously close to pantheism. Even the belief of Panentheism in the Orthodox Church is not the same as the other view of Panentheism. Next you'll be telling me about literal toll houses.
@AegeanKing Of course, this ultimately leads us into the nature of God and his uncreated energies, and the nature of God's grace. The Orthodox have a very different conception of these things than other Christians.
Read some of the other Fathers, such as St. Isaac the Syrian or St. Symeon the New Theologian. Read something like the following:
@Judge373 Like I said, you make God into an obsessed girlfriend who insists on loving you and being in your life. That is not free will and that is not what Fathers or Scripture teach.
@AegeanKing Look at the parable of the prodigal son. The elder brother is not deprived of the father's love or favor. But because of the hatred and malice in his heart, he is utterly miserable when the younger brother is welcomed. You see the father's love was the exact thing that made him miserable. And did the prodigal son get "justice" in the human sense? No. The father showed him mercy. It was the same mercy that caused the elder brother torment because of his own hatred of it
@brendos444 That is not what the prodigal son is about and the position of the good son is one who is already saved not lost. That is why the Father says to that son that he was very happy because the rebellious son had RETURNED. Secondly, as I said before, the Church Fathers are CLEAR on the nature of Hell.
@AegeanKing Can you tell me about the "nature of hell". What is it? Is it a physical place? Does it consist in literal flames? Does God literally punish people? I am quite unaware of the Fathers or the Scriptures giving us concrete descriptions of the nature of hell.
@brendos444 I can tell you this, Hell is certianly not how you experience the love of God. That is a complete innovation. All you have to do is google "Church Fathers on Hell". Also, it must be some sort of physical place. After all, the wicked will be resurrected with a physical body and judged as well. It would make no sense if Heaven were a physical place but Hell was not.
Really? The bible uses various metaphors to speak of torment in hell. Like "outer darkness", "fire" etc. If these are to be taken literally, then we have a contradiction. And how do u know the Fathers are not speaking metaphorically too? There is no concrete descriptions given for hell despite ur attempts. Is heaven a physical place? So when God recreates the world, isnt that place heaven? When God is "all in all" and "fillest all things" where is hell going to be?
It sounds as if u have picked up medieval charicatures of hell. Diverse men from St Gregory of Nyssa, St Isaac the Syrian to CS Lewis and NT Wright all speak of eternal torment of hell being the negation of God's love. "The doors of hell are locked from the inside" as Lewis put it. This very low grade stuff about hell being this literal torture chamber beneath the surface of the earth is simply nonsense.
We know where heaven is. It is the new earth. Because, as Isaiah says, the whole world will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea. Where will hell be in this schema? If God fills all things and becomes all in all, where will the place be that he is not? Dante's hell is not the hell of the Fathers, who are more nuanced than your crude depiction of them
@AegeanKing You still haven't answered my question on what hell consists in. If it is a physical place, where is that place? If heaven and earth are to be united in the new creation, where will hell be? Where is the place God will send the resurrected damned? Surely not a purely spiritual place because they will be resurrected. Is it going to be in some paralell dimension? Where is the scriptural support for hell as a concrete physical place?
@brendos444 It makes logical sense that Hell is a physical place. You are going to have a PHYSICAL resurrected body. A physical body must exist in a physical realm. Common sense goes a long way. I dont have all the answers. But what I do know is that Hell is not that completely absurd notion that you experience Gods love differently than the saved.
@AegeanKing Yes they will have a physical body, that is what I said. And the earth is a physical place. When God returns and becomes "all in all" it is precisely on this earth he will dwell. Those in hell also share the renewed physical reality of the space-time renewed earth, yet will be tormented even as the faithful experience the same place as love and light. If hell is a separate physical place, then please tell where because the scriptures and the fathers no not of such a place
@brendos444 Who told you it will be this earth? 2 Peter 3:10 clearly states that the "heavens" which is the universe and the earth will be consumed by fire and be destroyed. First, it wont be this earth because this earth has a sun and is ruled by the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Scripture clearly states that there will be no sun or moon and no ocean (See Rev. 21:1 and Rev. 21:23). Corruption will be gone so the 2nd law of thermodynamics will be gone. (CONT)
@AegeanKing Ummm what about all the passages in the Bible that talk of new heavens and new earth????? I mean are you really saying that God is going to destroy all of creation forever? That is way outside the bounds of orthodox Christianity!!! The passage in 1 Peter is akin to purifying fire that cleanses us. the whole world will be recreated Read Rev 21, Isaiah 8, Isaiah 65, Romans 8. It's about new heavens and new earth! Where will hell be in the new creation???
@AegeanKing You are being silly.. I'm sorry if that is abrasive. But scripture does not talk about the law of thermodynamics. Scripture is highly symbolic and poetic. Modern people try to impose their enlightenment thinking onto scripture. So everything becomes literal. In fact, the ancients hardly ever spoke in concrete realities about heaven and hell. You are not doing scripture or the gospel justice with your rather silly impositions on the text.
@brendos444 Im not being silly, im using common sense. You should try it. If death is destroyed, that means the 2nd law of thermodynamics is destroyed. common sense. Secondly, I know it is a parable but it still proves my point. Heaven and hell are physical places because we will have physical bodies. Physical bodies can not exist in an immaterial realm. You need to read what the Church Fathers said about Hell and then talk because you obviously don't know anything.
@brendos444 Your modernist innovations are nothing but complete crap and utterly false. The Fathers were clear that Hell is a place that is completely separate from those saved in Christ. I take my interpretations FROM the FATHERS. Something you are obviously a stranger too. And don't talk to me about the "ancients" from the nonsense that you write it is crystal clear that you are completely unfamiliar with the Patristic literature.
@brendos444 "We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike; For if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed." - St. Cyril of Jerusalem - (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).
@brendos444 To Think that we will be walking in heaven NEXT to people who are experiencing heaven as hell is completely ridiculous. Hell is a completely different place. See Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 in which Abraham replies to the Rich man that there is a great gulf between him and the Rich man and that NONE may CROSS OVER the great Chasm to get to him. Obviously, we are talking about two different physical places. Where Hell is exactly, only God knows.
@AegeanKing that is a PARABLE!!! it is not meant to be a description of concrete reality!!!! AND Christ is not teaching us about the afterlife here, he is teaching us to be kind to people in need IN THIS LIFE, IN THIS WORLD!!!!!!!! I mean the point of the parable is not that heaven and hell and physical places!!!! This parable can't be cited as literal description of concrete reality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This should be patently obvious
@brendos444 "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire," they will be damned forever" - Saint Irenaeus (Against Heresies 4:28:2 [A.D. 189]).
@AegeanKing Those who do not know God damn themselves... again we have metaphorical language. Metaphorical language is used because the exact nature of hell is beyond description. One thing that is clear from the teachings of the Orthodox Church is that it is not God doing the punishing. I think this requires a deeper understanding than you seem capable of. Peace.
@brendos444 Well, you have proved that you are of bad will because you make drive by insults and then say "Peace". Clearly the actions of a coward. Saint Gregory of Nyssa was a universalist. Something the Church has condemned. I dont give a damn what c.s. lewish or n.t. wright has to say. I care what scripture and the Church Fathers have to say. The OVERWHELMING opinion of the Church Fathers is that Hell is a place of unimaginable torment.
@AegeanKing My comments weren't insults. And St Gregory was no universalist. there is a difference between saying that all MUST be saved, per Origen, and saying that all MAY be saved, per St Gregory. We may legitimately hope for the salvation of all.
@brendos444 I didn't say St. Gregory was a heretic. I said his views are not mainstream teaching in the Church. In fact, Saint Photius, Saint Mark of Ephesus, Saint Maximus the Confessor, Saint Herman of Constantinople and others HEAVILY criticize St. Gregory's views on the after life. Saints are not infallible and Saint Gregory is out of the mainstream teaching of the other Fathers of the Church. That is simply a fact.
@brendos444 You are missing my point anyway. The idea that Hell is a place where the damned experience Gods love differently is a complete innovation to the historical teaching of the Church. This view Turns God into an obsessed girlfriend who smothers you with her affection and because you hate your girlfriend you experience her affection as torment. It is an utterly ridiculous view and not in line with the vast majority of Church Fathers or scripture.
@brendos444 "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual." Saint Cyprian of Carthage - (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
@Judge373 Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
@Judge373 If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)
@Judge373 An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies.The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment (“To Demetrian” 24) - Saint Cyprian
So I like how you "over-look" all the mess-ups in the old covenants against the Jewish Nation. Because God is and was always LOVE. Only the Covenants were different. I love the Life of Tree grace covenant, rather the Knowlegde of Good (blessings) and Bad (curses) Tree law covenant.
Unfortunately a lot of Christian still choses the LAW (do/don't, good/bad) covenant instead of the LOVE (finished, life) covenant.
I am prot, but I think there is a lot of misunderstanding in the COVENANTS in the Bible. A lot of preachers MIX UP the covenants, and the ppl are confused. For example, the New Testament: where does it begin? AT THE CROSS!!! ("This is the New Covenant IN MY BLOOD") So, the New Testament does not start in the beginning of Matthew, Mark, etc. But at the end! Mark says: this is (only) the beginning of the Gospel. Because the GOSPEL is at the end of Mark :)
THank you for the video. Would you say many(if not all) the stories of God punishing peoples in the OT by death telling others to kill are the opinion of the writer of that book(his limited Revelation of the mind of God) and not literal fact. As St. Tony the Great said, "God never punishes in this life..." tHANKS, Chris
Of course, the BIG question - does either view put your salvation at risk? Are you damned for having the "wrong" theology, while accepting Christ as your saviour? Unless your spiritual gift is "legalism", I think not.
Salvation is not based upon theology, I agree. However, I almost fell away from the faith altogether, and I have seen Protestant kids I know fall away, or completely without the love that Christianity is supposed to impute, because they aren't taught love. Love is what will save us, and Protestantism has in a lot of ways ceased to teach this. Love is not the focus of the faith, and that causes problems.
Father Robinson, I will definitely be subscribing to your channel! I am a Member of the Mennonite Church (are you familiar with it?) but have recently been struggling with the Protestant view that we are all evil and if we don't believe exactly the right thing we will go to Hell. I have been intrigued with the Orthodox Church for a while and you really have a way of explaining these things in a way that 'outsiders' can understand. Great Job!
I am considering becoming an orthodox christian (I am now a protestant). But why in the world do protestant converts, those who become priests and those who remain laymen, grow long beards and try to look like monastics?
@TheWinns11 "How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!…For God...adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest--a sign of strength and rule." St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.275
How we view Salvation ultimately shapes how Christians view and present God. How we view God shapes who we are and what we do. The Orthodox understanding strikes me as richer and more true than the Protestant view.
@CrownIdeas PART 1: the key point is that everyone will experience God's love. Some will experience it as a wonderful thing; others like a glaring irritating light that annoys them to no end. Will the people being irritated (in hell) get the chance to cross over? That is for God to decide, and it is for us to pray for these inviduals and call upon His mercy. We hope they are saved, but it is up to them to accept God's love. He does not force Himself upon anyone.
@pbash66 PART 2: Universalism, on the other hand, definitely decides that ALL will accept God's love. Or that God's love will overwhelm those in hell. This is contrary to our understanding of free will. This is obviously a very basic, simplified explanation but I hope it helped.
@pbash66 So people being tormented in an unquenchable Fire (God's misunderstood love) will have enough pride to resist and choose torment? That's seems neither logical nor Biblical. I don't like the idea that anyone would go to hell. But it does seem from scripture that some will end up there. And it seems we all deserve eternal death according to scripture. Innihilationism seem to have more Biblical merit than that view. That was also condemned as heresy, wasn't it?
@CrownIdeas Don't people resist God and instead choose torment even now? Yes they do. Illogical? Yes, but I see examples of it every day. Now as for your interpretation of Scripture...Orthodox are very careful to only interpret the Bible within the context of what has been handed down to us. And our interpretation is evidently very different from yours, in terms of who "deserves hell" and who doesn't. And you are correct, annihilation of souls is not an Orthodox teaching.
@lightsntunnels I don't think he was trying to bash Protestants at all - just trying to compare the primary paradigm within which Protestants understand salvation with the Orthodox. Other than this I agree with you: No Protestant that I can think of would disagree with the second presentation at all. They are two sides of the same coin.
IM not sure where this "Jesus saves us from God" either/or came from or that "god cannot look upon sinners"...I mean, if God is omniscient, then He is aware of our status. It is the Holy Spirit that works with us to restore our relationship to God, but the Spirit had to come via Jesus through the sacrificial system of atonement,, because that was the framework since Abraham, Isaac and the ram.
You didn't compare the 2 beliefs at all you simply tried to bash Protestants we believe all those things about the love of Christ as well. We believe that God loves the sinner just as you do in this skit. These are the kinds of thoughts that just make me so sad and disappointed in christens of all beliefs. We may not have the exact same beliefs but are all reaching for the same goal when it comes to God and Christ. Why can't you just love all why do you have to be hateful towards fellow chris
I am currently agnostic, but still analyzing and searching. I am very critical of this worldview intellectually. However, it is one of the most beautiful views of the universe I have ever seen. I have the same sentimentality for Buddhism and Jainism, and no other sect of Christianity but Orthodoxy entices this feeling.
The protestant response is scriptural - what does the bible say?
1) OT sacrificial system, to atone for sin, כפר (kaphar), to cover - sin is covered, God sees sacrifice, not the sinner. Jesus salvic work fulfills this system.
2) NT, Jesus = ransom, common use of λύτρον (lutron), deliverance in exchange for payment, for sin/transgressions.
3) John the Baptist (John 1:29), "lamb of God" i.e., sacrificial..
4) Pauline writings: Rom. 1:18: God's wrath against sin. Rom 3:21-26 Jesus as sacrifice.
The is the best protestant smack down i've seen. It;s not really a smack down, it's done lovingly. But is really does show the folly of Western Christianity in general, both Protestant and Catholic. It's wonderful that the Christus Victor motif of the atonement is making a comeback within protestant circles.
I've just written a book about Hell & eternity that will be out soon. It talks about what the Scriptures actually say on the subject. Join in the discussion....
The Orthodox have no issue with the "fear of God", the issue is with how the wrath of God is defined. If you Google "The River of Fire, Kalamiros" there is an excellent essay that further explicates the concept of the video.
I was raised Orthodox but came to being a non-denominational Christian, and I have a question. Do you believe that even a person who dies in their sins having rejected Christ will still be saved? Because the Bible speaks of the destiny of those who rejected Christ in various passages (Matthew 13:41-50, Revelation 20:11-15), how do you reconcile that?
I mean I totally agree with you that God will keep persuing us all our life, but if we still reject Him there is nothing more that can be done :(
@lorenei Hi, lorenei. Excuse me for jumping in here, but it seems to me that Steve Robinson's presentation here makes sense of the biblical teaching that God loves all, died on behalf of all, wants to save all, and in fact IS the savior of all people, "especially believers" (1 Tim. 4:10), while not denying the teaching that some will choose to hate God and all God stands for, and will face the eternal and inevitable consequences of this "sin unto death." Robinson affirms both truths. God bless.
I am finding a lot of truth in orthodoxy... but I am going to have to agree with l33tpwnzord. God is love, but he is also a God whom we fear. His wrath can not be explained away, and the protestant tradition acknowledges the second part as well as the first.
You act as if protestants do not agree with the 2nd half of the video and that is simply not true. We believe God pursues us. We believe God intervenes at every opportunity to show his love for us.
Alternatively, you cannot simply explain away the wrath of God. Romans 1:18, "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men."
The wrath of God and the love of God are both 100% biblical. It's a both/and scenario.
Please explain these scriptures if everyone will be won in the end. John 3:36 "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him." Mat 7:14 "Enter in through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
@l33tpwnzord LOL... so, from this verse which says ANYONE, I would hope that you do not call your earthly father... FATHER. Try reading the bible passages you quote in the proper context. It also says to call no man teacher but I'm sure you have disobeyed this as well. Sheesh.
It will be interesting as you read through the comments all the agreements and arguments that do nothing to help the sinner. I found this to be illuminating and helpful at least. Jesus is not Protestant or Orthodox, isn't he "God with us".
Which one corresponds with God so loving the world He gave His beloved Son up as a sacrifice for sin as foreshadowed by Abraham's sacrifice, the Passover Lamb sacrifice which turned away the Angel of Death, and all the other sacrifices in the OT? The sacrifice which takes away the sin of the world is Christ Crucified.
Just an observation... Maybe the chairs could be put side by side, or even as you've done at the end, on top of each other to imply true union. It is a pity the two objects have to be shown to stay separate - Christ Jesus is all in all.
When in repentance we turn to Him, He's already there - Psalm 139!
Many writers and people of Faith get SOOO close to expressing the Orthodox way, but, for their own reasons, will not enter into that fullness life.
@mishakol129 I am a member of a Mission Parish of the OCA. With our and the Coptic Bishops' blessings we are currently renting a chapel from a Coptic Church while we are looking for another place to meet.
First I'd like to say I am a big fan of yours and of anciathradio in general. But I do have a few questions:
1) Is seeing sin as a transgression really that anathema to Orthodox church? It would seem strange that wrath which is so common in the OT would be absolutely disregarded by the church
2) I think RC Sproul (whom I have never really paid attention to) makes a pretty Orthodox statement in likening God's presence to a consuming fire.
@ChristianEastern Sin as transgression and wrath are not ignored at all. The liturgical texts are full of references to the wrath of God. The core difference is summed up in RC Sproul's statement: Either God (the Father) is someone that Jesus needs to save us FROM, or the love of God incarnated in His Son can be experienced as "fire" (ie, the Pharisees, the Elder brother, etc.) rather than "light and warmth" (ie., the Prodigal Son, the sinners, etc.).
He set the Captives free. Yes Jesus was is and will be everywhere - because he is Omnipresent.
There is nowhere where He is not,- even having the power to come and go at will from Satan's stronghold - the place of death and captivity.
What trips me up is the difference between the Orthodox message of GOOD News, and the Protestant message of no free will, and having to appease an angry God.
So I've been interested in orthodoxy for a while and having a mainly protestant based knowledge of theology, I've been struggling with the understanding of the reason that Jesus was crucified from the orthodox perspective. From what I garnished, the crucifixion is the ultimate demonstration of co-suffering love and reconciliation of mankind despite man's sinful condition (exemplified in the killing Jesus) I would appreciate help on understanding this issue
Thanks for posting this video. As a former Evangelical who is attracted to the Othodox Church, this video is very helpful to me. Hope you post more. "Christ is risen from the dead trampling down death by death and to those in the tombs bestowing life."
I believe man turned his back on God and God pursues humanity through the substitutionary sacrifice of his son. God cannot leave justice undone so in order that man might be able to have fellowship with God again he fulfills all righteousness himself by taking the penalty of sin himself. This concept is present throughout scripture, beginning with God's mercy for Adam and Eve in 'clothing' them in animal skins. We are now 'clothed' eternally with Christ, and union with God by his Holy Spirit. x
@WotchDis So why does God have to do justice? Is there some law by which God has to follow? In that this law is in control of God? Why does he need to follow justice? How do we understand justice? It is through a western legalistic view? Why do we view a God who has to follow some kind unwritten law of justice? So why does God have to follow justice?
@srb584 That's like asking why a serial killer murders people, the question answers itself. It's simply his nature. How do we understand justice? The first step would be to let the word justice leave your mind, terminology will make you mad and keep you running in circles. Do you expect an ant to understand how you operate?
Trying to comprehend god, something that created everything is silly.
The most telling part of the Protestant illustration was that all the change was happening to God, rather than change happening to people (God turns His back, God must have His honor avenged, God needs something to tolerate humanity, etc). The Orthodox illustration made the opposite point very clear as God's chair always seeks the human chair and the change (repentance & theosis), rightly takes place in humanity. Very cool illustration Steve! ~ oruaseht
While I do believe in "Universal salvation" of sorts... I can't help but question the whole theory about God turning His back on sinful mankind... take Adam for example... he sins in the garden... did God turn His back on Adam... no, the exact opposite actually, God went too look for Adam and talk with him.
Christ took away sin not so much to "satisfy" an angry God, but rather as a physical example that restored mankind's conscience to a clear state so we can approach God without guilt.
I like I do, but there is no "Protestant" belief on the subject but rather many That is part of the problem with Protestantism. RC Spoul is reformed which is very much different than Wesleyan and primitive Baptist or even Lutherans. The Orthodox position is the right position even if it could not adequately be explained by chairs or Astrophysics. In general the Reformed view man as the enemy of God rather than God the ally of mankind. Oddly that view leads to works righteousness in my experience
Amazing video. I notice that there is a protestant pastor using it word by word. I am sure a message like that can bring unity. Love wins
SityAnalytics 1 week ago 2
A wonderful video. May it brings eternal salvation to those who hear and live Christ-like life. Thank you father.
eemc2203 1 week ago 2
I like that a lot
TheRevjjj 1 week ago
I'm a Baptist, but I am an admirer of many things Orthodox. I have a resurrection icon in my room and I love the paschal hymn he referenced.
However, I would like to say that while this video very clearly shows the emphasis of each branch of the faith, I would also mention that as a Protestant I would hold to everything he said was the Orthodox view of salvation.
Christthehopeofglory 1 week ago
@Christthehopeofglory Peace mate, I was Baptist before I became Orthodox too. Have you ever considered looking deeper into the historical Christian Faith which was once delivered to the saints? Please feel free to contact me any time if you like 8)
Ggdivhjkjl 1 week ago
@Ggdivhjkjl I have. On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius is one of my favorite books ever. Where are you from? I'm from Alabama and am currently attending a Baptist school in Tennessee. My email is phillipr.johnson@yahoo.com
Christthehopeofglory 2 days ago
Beautiful video. Very informative.
TheGeorgeSamuel 2 weeks ago
Beautiful , That was amazing thank you. I work around a few Baptists who feel its a mission to prove Orthodoxy evil . To me this is amazing seeing how we never talk bad of other denominations in Orthodox church . I might just show this to a guy I work with who even though I think he's great he's a pain in my butt with his born again stuff .
zenserb 2 weeks ago
the Orthodox view, at least as he explains it, goes directly against what Jesus said in John 5:29 -"those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned" which means if you die in your sin rejecting Christ, yes you will be resurrected, but not to face the love of God but to face the wrath of God which Jesus took upon Himself on the cross, but since you rejected what Jesus did for you then you'll have to face the wrath of God yourself.
propovednik7 2 weeks ago
plus, every time he says "God says" while explaining the Orthodox view, its actually Jesus saying it, thus proving the point of the Protestant view of the Gospel, which he explained very good by the way.
propovednik7 2 weeks ago
@propovednik7 You must have misunderstood.
NicholasMyra 1 week ago
For a fuller explication of the above video with patristic quotes etc. Google "River of Fire, Kalomiros" A challenging read. Way too long to post here.
sevprobinson 3 weeks ago
@sevprobinson Thats very convenient. I have alerady refuted your ridiculous assertions and quoted directly from the Church Fathers on the nature of Hell.
AegeanKing 3 weeks ago
What do Eastern Orthodox believe about Hell? Is it eternal?
Brightstar27 1 month ago
@Brightstar27 Yes, it is eternal. In fact, what this man teaches on the videos is NOT the historical orthodox teaching on Hell. It is an innovation from the 20th century. The Orthodox develop their theology form the Church Fathers. The Church Fathers made it perfectly clear that Hell is a place of extreme torment where prayer has no effect.
AegeanKing 1 month ago
@AegeanKing Thanks for that clarification. That's very interesting becasue I have heard from many EO's that the whole idea of a torment-H.ell is a mythical western Roman invention!
Brightstar27 1 month ago
@Brightstar27 Well, those EO need to go study the fathers from whom we take our theology. - "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire," they will be damned forever (Against Heresies 4:28:2 [A.D. 189]). - Saint Ireneaus
AegeanKing 1 month ago
@AegeanKing and Brightstar, one can "proof text" the Fathers as well as the Scriptures. No where in the video does he mention whether hell is eternal or temporary. Nor is he teaching universalism. You should become more familiar with the Fathers then you would understand the finer nuances of what is really being taught here.
sevpr 1 month ago
@sevpr He is teaching tha those who are damned experience Gods love like a river of fire. That is nonsense and an innovation from the 20th century. A teaching that is completely foreign to the fathers. Scripture make it clear that hell, a place made for the devil and his angels, is a place of extreme torment where prayer has no effect.
AegeanKing 1 month ago
@AegeanKing, in all kindness, apparently you haven't read much of St. John, St. Basil, St. Gregory, St. Isaac, St. Silouan and others. Sorry, it is not a 20th century innovation, it is also in the scriptures.
sevprobinson 3 weeks ago
@sevprobinson You can't throw names out there and think you have proven your point. Give specific citations. Secondly, Saint Silouan or Saint Isaac are not Church Fathers. Third, Saint John who? There are many Saint Johns. Show citations.
AegeanKing 3 weeks ago
@sevprobinson "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies.The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual." (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252] - Saint Cyprian of Carthage
AegeanKing 3 weeks ago
If that is an Orthodox Church, because there are benches?
RettaDottrina 1 month ago
@RettaDottrina This is a Coptic Orthodox Church that is letting the priest use the Church until they have money to buy their own, and it looks like its a protestant church that was converted to Coptic because of the style of the interior (not the icons).
DivineAegis02 1 month ago
@DivineAegis02
Thanks the news, but unfortunately many Orthodox Churches in the West are modernizing, and for example they use the benches, make ecumenism, and women no longer use the veil.
RettaDottrina 1 month ago
@RettaDottrina I don't know about others but for our Women are veiled in our Church, the benches does not make the church un-orthodox, and Ecumenism is good in the sense we all have unity of faith as long as we don't compromise the truth!
DivineAegis02 1 month ago
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@VyckRo The Massacre of the Latins further caused strains between East and West church relations. And during this time of the Middle Ages the church and state were very closely knitted together. The emperor of Constantinople was viewed as the Vicar of Christ.
vlambert100 1 month ago
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vlambert100 1 month ago
@VyckRo This had to do with a comment that God is not justice. Since people are created in the image of God clearly they want justice, and and the Massacre of the Latins was the response of the Greeks to the abuses of the Italians. You cannot tell me God is not justice since we are made in his image, and that is what people seek after abuses. And yes I do know about the looting of Constantinople and the failures of the Crusades. All churches have had dark moments they would like to forget.
vlambert100 1 month ago
Good video!
VyckRo 1 month ago
THIS IS NOT WHAT THE CHURCH FATHERS TAUGHT ON HELL. THIS MAN IS LYING.
AegeanKing 1 month ago
How Magnificent Is The truth......Thank You i really needed to hear this
Japps33 1 month ago
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@sevpr Your church is not a good representative of God not being justice. When I went to a local Greek Festival one of the things that they bring up is the atrocities committed to the Greeks by the Turks. If God is not justice and is not sovereign your community "should not" be bringing these issues up because who are you to say that the Turks were wrong in committing these atrocities. Your own church demanded justice when it committed the Massacre of the Latins against Italian traders.
vlambert100 2 months ago
@sevpr Your church is not a good representative of God not being justice as you present. When I went to a local Greek Festival, one of the major things the church brought up was the atrocities committed by the Turks against the Greeks. If God is not justice then your church should not be even bring these issues up because who are you to say that the Turks were wrong in committing these atrocities. Your church also showed it wanted justice when it committed the Massacer of the Latins.
vlambert100 2 months ago
@sevpr If you are saying that God is not justice, you are clearly denying that we are made in the image of God. We are created with the capacity to want justice; it is part of our being created in the image of God. The fact that we are all tainted with sin does not negate the fact that the ability to demand justice is part of the image of God that was created within us all.
vlambert100 2 months ago
God bless Orthodox Christianity!
marykfilms 2 months ago
There is a hell. God being a God of wrath is mentioned over 300 times in the bible. There are countless passages about hell and suffering apart from Jesus. Get real people. You take the love of God and amp it higher than his Just, Sovereign, and perfect wrathful nature. There is a hell, some of you, may see it. Bye
bammc19 2 months ago
@bammc19 - The good ol Protestant preaching his sick deities love of death, blood and torture. Get real people, if you do your parenting the way your god rules the universe, you'd be in prison.
EvertonFooty 2 months ago
This beautiful explaination bought tears to my eyes. I know I don't ever want God to turn away from me!
NaturalRepublic 2 months ago
This is complete and utter shit! Universalism IS a heresy!!!
AegeanKing 2 months ago
@AegeanKing This is not universalism. You need to listen more carefully.
sevprobinson 2 months ago
@sevprobinson It is universalism. It is the idea that one can reject Christ and still be saved through the love of God. This is a false teaching. The Fathers said very clearly that many people will NOT be saved. Not to mention the many parables of Christ that show that the the chaff will be burnt up and the goats will be separated from the sheep.
AegeanKing 2 months ago
@AegeanKing Maybe you should start watching from 7:30 on...
The monk/priest/whatever specifically says that there is no place for any soul to escape God's love. For some, those who love God and strive to obey Him, that love will be heavenly, for others that hate God and are contentious towards Him, that very same love will manifest itself as hellish to them.
Heaven and hell still exist; it's just that now they actually make sense since it's up to the person how they experience the afterlife.
M3PanoS 2 months ago in playlist Favorite videos
@M3PanoS I perfectly understand what he is saying and what you are saying. I am saying that, that is not what the fathers taught and it is not what scripture teaches. Also, define "hate" towards God. One does not need a proactive hate towards God. One can Hate God just by putting other things before him like money or your own desires. Being unrepentant is hatred towards God. Repentance is key. The unrepentant and unbaptized go to hell. This is the teaching of the fathers.
AegeanKing 2 months ago
@AegeanKing "Also, define "hate" towards God."
I agree with your definition -anything but active love towards God is in fact hate and the only way to break this "hate" is through repentance.
So then, what are you objecting to?
M3PanoS 2 months ago
@M3PanoS my objection is that he sounds like he is teaching that the love of God overcomes the sinner and that the sinner can just leave hell whenever he wants when he starts to love God.
AegeanKing 2 months ago
@AegeanKing I guess you're right to a degree since that point is left without answer, however, the main point is that God still maintains sovereignty over the fates of all and that NO ONE will end up somewhere that they shouldn't be -and that above all else, God is the embodiment of love.
M3PanoS 2 months ago
@AegeanKing This is not universalism. Indeed, the goats *will* be separated from the sheep. But this has not happened yet, and will not happen until the End and Christ returns. Heaven and Hell have not yet been established in the fullest sense. In the meantime, the afterlife is like a river of fire of God's love — to those who accept Christ and are prepared for this love, they will experience it as heaven; to those who reject Christ, it will feel extremely painful.
Judge373 2 months ago
@Judge373 Just listen to what you are saying. It is not even logical . Gods love will make people feel pain? That is ridiculous. I can give dozens of quotes from the fathers and saints who specifically say that those who are without Christ will experience everlasting torment in hell. Your RIDICULOUS and Childish view of hell is not befitting the Gospels, the Fathers or God himself. You make God into a overbearing lover who forces his love on you whether you like it or not. ABSURD!!!
AegeanKing 2 months ago
@AegeanKing None of these quotes contradict what I have stated. And I have stated that those who reject Christ and his love will be a "goat", separated from God eternally. But the ultimate end of things has not yet been completed.
Of course, God's love permeates EVERYTHING. This is because God permeates EVERYTHING. This is not absurd. It is simply reality.
Judge373 2 months ago
@Judge373 God permeates everything?God is present in every point in spacetime. But he does not permeate everything like water on a sponge. God is necessary to uphold and sustain all of spacetime in existence. But God is not in cancer. God does permeate cigarette butts or human waste. You are treading dangerously close to pantheism. Even the belief of Panentheism in the Orthodox Church is not the same as the other view of Panentheism. Next you'll be telling me about literal toll houses.
AegeanKing 2 months ago
@Judge373 *God does NOT permeate cigarette butts or human waste.
AegeanKing 2 months ago
@AegeanKing Of course, this ultimately leads us into the nature of God and his uncreated energies, and the nature of God's grace. The Orthodox have a very different conception of these things than other Christians.
Read some of the other Fathers, such as St. Isaac the Syrian or St. Symeon the New Theologian. Read something like the following:
Judge373 2 months ago
@Judge373 Like I said, you make God into an obsessed girlfriend who insists on loving you and being in your life. That is not free will and that is not what Fathers or Scripture teach.
AegeanKing 2 months ago
@AegeanKing LOLOLOL
Judge373 2 months ago
@Judge373 What is funny?
AegeanKing 2 months ago
@AegeanKing Look at the parable of the prodigal son. The elder brother is not deprived of the father's love or favor. But because of the hatred and malice in his heart, he is utterly miserable when the younger brother is welcomed. You see the father's love was the exact thing that made him miserable. And did the prodigal son get "justice" in the human sense? No. The father showed him mercy. It was the same mercy that caused the elder brother torment because of his own hatred of it
brendos444 3 weeks ago
@brendos444 That is not what the prodigal son is about and the position of the good son is one who is already saved not lost. That is why the Father says to that son that he was very happy because the rebellious son had RETURNED. Secondly, as I said before, the Church Fathers are CLEAR on the nature of Hell.
AegeanKing 3 weeks ago
@AegeanKing Can you tell me about the "nature of hell". What is it? Is it a physical place? Does it consist in literal flames? Does God literally punish people? I am quite unaware of the Fathers or the Scriptures giving us concrete descriptions of the nature of hell.
brendos444 3 weeks ago
@brendos444 I can tell you this, Hell is certianly not how you experience the love of God. That is a complete innovation. All you have to do is google "Church Fathers on Hell". Also, it must be some sort of physical place. After all, the wicked will be resurrected with a physical body and judged as well. It would make no sense if Heaven were a physical place but Hell was not.
AegeanKing 3 weeks ago
Really? The bible uses various metaphors to speak of torment in hell. Like "outer darkness", "fire" etc. If these are to be taken literally, then we have a contradiction. And how do u know the Fathers are not speaking metaphorically too? There is no concrete descriptions given for hell despite ur attempts. Is heaven a physical place? So when God recreates the world, isnt that place heaven? When God is "all in all" and "fillest all things" where is hell going to be?
brendos444 3 weeks ago
It sounds as if u have picked up medieval charicatures of hell. Diverse men from St Gregory of Nyssa, St Isaac the Syrian to CS Lewis and NT Wright all speak of eternal torment of hell being the negation of God's love. "The doors of hell are locked from the inside" as Lewis put it. This very low grade stuff about hell being this literal torture chamber beneath the surface of the earth is simply nonsense.
brendos444 3 weeks ago
We know where heaven is. It is the new earth. Because, as Isaiah says, the whole world will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea. Where will hell be in this schema? If God fills all things and becomes all in all, where will the place be that he is not? Dante's hell is not the hell of the Fathers, who are more nuanced than your crude depiction of them
brendos444 3 weeks ago
@AegeanKing You still haven't answered my question on what hell consists in. If it is a physical place, where is that place? If heaven and earth are to be united in the new creation, where will hell be? Where is the place God will send the resurrected damned? Surely not a purely spiritual place because they will be resurrected. Is it going to be in some paralell dimension? Where is the scriptural support for hell as a concrete physical place?
brendos444 2 weeks ago
@brendos444 It makes logical sense that Hell is a physical place. You are going to have a PHYSICAL resurrected body. A physical body must exist in a physical realm. Common sense goes a long way. I dont have all the answers. But what I do know is that Hell is not that completely absurd notion that you experience Gods love differently than the saved.
AegeanKing 2 weeks ago
@AegeanKing Yes they will have a physical body, that is what I said. And the earth is a physical place. When God returns and becomes "all in all" it is precisely on this earth he will dwell. Those in hell also share the renewed physical reality of the space-time renewed earth, yet will be tormented even as the faithful experience the same place as love and light. If hell is a separate physical place, then please tell where because the scriptures and the fathers no not of such a place
brendos444 2 weeks ago
@brendos444 Who told you it will be this earth? 2 Peter 3:10 clearly states that the "heavens" which is the universe and the earth will be consumed by fire and be destroyed. First, it wont be this earth because this earth has a sun and is ruled by the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Scripture clearly states that there will be no sun or moon and no ocean (See Rev. 21:1 and Rev. 21:23). Corruption will be gone so the 2nd law of thermodynamics will be gone. (CONT)
AegeanKing 2 weeks ago
@AegeanKing Ummm what about all the passages in the Bible that talk of new heavens and new earth????? I mean are you really saying that God is going to destroy all of creation forever? That is way outside the bounds of orthodox Christianity!!! The passage in 1 Peter is akin to purifying fire that cleanses us. the whole world will be recreated Read Rev 21, Isaiah 8, Isaiah 65, Romans 8. It's about new heavens and new earth! Where will hell be in the new creation???
brendos444 2 weeks ago
@AegeanKing You are being silly.. I'm sorry if that is abrasive. But scripture does not talk about the law of thermodynamics. Scripture is highly symbolic and poetic. Modern people try to impose their enlightenment thinking onto scripture. So everything becomes literal. In fact, the ancients hardly ever spoke in concrete realities about heaven and hell. You are not doing scripture or the gospel justice with your rather silly impositions on the text.
brendos444 2 weeks ago
@brendos444 Im not being silly, im using common sense. You should try it. If death is destroyed, that means the 2nd law of thermodynamics is destroyed. common sense. Secondly, I know it is a parable but it still proves my point. Heaven and hell are physical places because we will have physical bodies. Physical bodies can not exist in an immaterial realm. You need to read what the Church Fathers said about Hell and then talk because you obviously don't know anything.
AegeanKing 2 weeks ago
@brendos444 Your modernist innovations are nothing but complete crap and utterly false. The Fathers were clear that Hell is a place that is completely separate from those saved in Christ. I take my interpretations FROM the FATHERS. Something you are obviously a stranger too. And don't talk to me about the "ancients" from the nonsense that you write it is crystal clear that you are completely unfamiliar with the Patristic literature.
AegeanKing 2 weeks ago
@brendos444 "We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike; For if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed." - St. Cyril of Jerusalem - (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).
AegeanKing 2 weeks ago
@brendos444 To Think that we will be walking in heaven NEXT to people who are experiencing heaven as hell is completely ridiculous. Hell is a completely different place. See Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 in which Abraham replies to the Rich man that there is a great gulf between him and the Rich man and that NONE may CROSS OVER the great Chasm to get to him. Obviously, we are talking about two different physical places. Where Hell is exactly, only God knows.
AegeanKing 2 weeks ago
@AegeanKing that is a PARABLE!!! it is not meant to be a description of concrete reality!!!! AND Christ is not teaching us about the afterlife here, he is teaching us to be kind to people in need IN THIS LIFE, IN THIS WORLD!!!!!!!! I mean the point of the parable is not that heaven and hell and physical places!!!! This parable can't be cited as literal description of concrete reality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This should be patently obvious
brendos444 2 weeks ago
@brendos444 "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire," they will be damned forever" - Saint Irenaeus (Against Heresies 4:28:2 [A.D. 189]).
AegeanKing 3 weeks ago
@AegeanKing Those who do not know God damn themselves... again we have metaphorical language. Metaphorical language is used because the exact nature of hell is beyond description. One thing that is clear from the teachings of the Orthodox Church is that it is not God doing the punishing. I think this requires a deeper understanding than you seem capable of. Peace.
brendos444 2 weeks ago
@brendos444 Well, you have proved that you are of bad will because you make drive by insults and then say "Peace". Clearly the actions of a coward. Saint Gregory of Nyssa was a universalist. Something the Church has condemned. I dont give a damn what c.s. lewish or n.t. wright has to say. I care what scripture and the Church Fathers have to say. The OVERWHELMING opinion of the Church Fathers is that Hell is a place of unimaginable torment.
AegeanKing 2 weeks ago
@AegeanKing My comments weren't insults. And St Gregory was no universalist. there is a difference between saying that all MUST be saved, per Origen, and saying that all MAY be saved, per St Gregory. We may legitimately hope for the salvation of all.
brendos444 2 weeks ago
@brendos444 btw are you branding St Gregory of Nyssa a heretic? He is clearly a saint of the Church recognised by both East and West
brendos444 2 weeks ago
@brendos444 I didn't say St. Gregory was a heretic. I said his views are not mainstream teaching in the Church. In fact, Saint Photius, Saint Mark of Ephesus, Saint Maximus the Confessor, Saint Herman of Constantinople and others HEAVILY criticize St. Gregory's views on the after life. Saints are not infallible and Saint Gregory is out of the mainstream teaching of the other Fathers of the Church. That is simply a fact.
AegeanKing 2 weeks ago
@brendos444 You are missing my point anyway. The idea that Hell is a place where the damned experience Gods love differently is a complete innovation to the historical teaching of the Church. This view Turns God into an obsessed girlfriend who smothers you with her affection and because you hate your girlfriend you experience her affection as torment. It is an utterly ridiculous view and not in line with the vast majority of Church Fathers or scripture.
AegeanKing 2 weeks ago
@brendos444 "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual." Saint Cyprian of Carthage - (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
AegeanKing 2 weeks ago
@Judge373 Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
AegeanKing 2 months ago
@Judge373 If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)
AegeanKing 2 months ago
@Judge373 An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies.The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment (“To Demetrian” 24) - Saint Cyprian
AegeanKing 2 months ago
So I like how you "over-look" all the mess-ups in the old covenants against the Jewish Nation. Because God is and was always LOVE. Only the Covenants were different. I love the Life of Tree grace covenant, rather the Knowlegde of Good (blessings) and Bad (curses) Tree law covenant.
Unfortunately a lot of Christian still choses the LAW (do/don't, good/bad) covenant instead of the LOVE (finished, life) covenant.
vattee 2 months ago
I am prot, but I think there is a lot of misunderstanding in the COVENANTS in the Bible. A lot of preachers MIX UP the covenants, and the ppl are confused. For example, the New Testament: where does it begin? AT THE CROSS!!! ("This is the New Covenant IN MY BLOOD") So, the New Testament does not start in the beginning of Matthew, Mark, etc. But at the end! Mark says: this is (only) the beginning of the Gospel. Because the GOSPEL is at the end of Mark :)
We have new wine, not old whineskin! :)
vattee 2 months ago
Wow. This is so great! Thank you so much for this video.
yakitori888 2 months ago
THank you for the video. Would you say many(if not all) the stories of God punishing peoples in the OT by death telling others to kill are the opinion of the writer of that book(his limited Revelation of the mind of God) and not literal fact. As St. Tony the Great said, "God never punishes in this life..." tHANKS, Chris
40chrisk 2 months ago
Of course, the BIG question - does either view put your salvation at risk? Are you damned for having the "wrong" theology, while accepting Christ as your saviour? Unless your spiritual gift is "legalism", I think not.
barfcoswill 2 months ago in playlist Favorite videos
@barfcoswill
Salvation is not based upon theology, I agree. However, I almost fell away from the faith altogether, and I have seen Protestant kids I know fall away, or completely without the love that Christianity is supposed to impute, because they aren't taught love. Love is what will save us, and Protestantism has in a lot of ways ceased to teach this. Love is not the focus of the faith, and that causes problems.
Genktarov 2 months ago
The Sickness of religion: youtube.com/user/GreekOrthodoxTV?feature=mhee#p/c/98D8A32209C6F87C/0/wgU9DKUwfPc
GreekOrthodoxTV 2 months ago
i am turkish. i love christianity...
atheisTurkish 3 months ago
@atheisTurkish you've commented this on several videos. what i want to know is why you're an atheist...
M3PanoS 3 months ago
Comment removed
atheisTurkish 3 months ago
@atheisTurkish i don't understand what you're saying...
M3PanoS 3 months ago
Comment removed
atheisTurkish 3 months ago
Father Robinson, I will definitely be subscribing to your channel! I am a Member of the Mennonite Church (are you familiar with it?) but have recently been struggling with the Protestant view that we are all evil and if we don't believe exactly the right thing we will go to Hell. I have been intrigued with the Orthodox Church for a while and you really have a way of explaining these things in a way that 'outsiders' can understand. Great Job!
JoyfulKyle 3 months ago
Great video!
rfriese1565 3 months ago
winns, Monk? I'm trying for Billy Gibbons. :)
sevprobinson 3 months ago
I am considering becoming an orthodox christian (I am now a protestant). But why in the world do protestant converts, those who become priests and those who remain laymen, grow long beards and try to look like monastics?
TheWinns11 3 months ago
@TheWinns11: Because it is FORBIDDEN for Priests to shave their beards and to cut their hair. this has nothing to do with "monasticism".
The Holy Apostles even forbid that men shave their beards! And the grwoing of Hair is a sign of the grace of God.
Like CHRIST had long hair and beard - and ALL OTHER APOSTLES.
adamantis4657 3 months ago
@TheWinns11 "How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!…For God...adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest--a sign of strength and rule." St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.275
Judge373 2 months ago
How we view Salvation ultimately shapes how Christians view and present God. How we view God shapes who we are and what we do. The Orthodox understanding strikes me as richer and more true than the Protestant view.
1962mrpaul 4 months ago
So the orthodox view is universalism?
CrownIdeas 4 months ago
@CrownIdeas no, universalism is specifically condemned by the 6th ecumenical council
pbash66 4 months ago
@pbash66 I know that but universalism means everyone gets saved in the end. So how is Love wins not Universalism?
CrownIdeas 4 months ago
@CrownIdeas PART 1: the key point is that everyone will experience God's love. Some will experience it as a wonderful thing; others like a glaring irritating light that annoys them to no end. Will the people being irritated (in hell) get the chance to cross over? That is for God to decide, and it is for us to pray for these inviduals and call upon His mercy. We hope they are saved, but it is up to them to accept God's love. He does not force Himself upon anyone.
pbash66 4 months ago
@pbash66 PART 2: Universalism, on the other hand, definitely decides that ALL will accept God's love. Or that God's love will overwhelm those in hell. This is contrary to our understanding of free will. This is obviously a very basic, simplified explanation but I hope it helped.
pbash66 4 months ago
@pbash66 So people being tormented in an unquenchable Fire (God's misunderstood love) will have enough pride to resist and choose torment? That's seems neither logical nor Biblical. I don't like the idea that anyone would go to hell. But it does seem from scripture that some will end up there. And it seems we all deserve eternal death according to scripture. Innihilationism seem to have more Biblical merit than that view. That was also condemned as heresy, wasn't it?
CrownIdeas 4 months ago
@CrownIdeas Oops, Annihilationism ...
CrownIdeas 4 months ago
@CrownIdeas Don't people resist God and instead choose torment even now? Yes they do. Illogical? Yes, but I see examples of it every day. Now as for your interpretation of Scripture...Orthodox are very careful to only interpret the Bible within the context of what has been handed down to us. And our interpretation is evidently very different from yours, in terms of who "deserves hell" and who doesn't. And you are correct, annihilation of souls is not an Orthodox teaching.
pbash66 4 months ago
@lightsntunnels I don't think he was trying to bash Protestants at all - just trying to compare the primary paradigm within which Protestants understand salvation with the Orthodox. Other than this I agree with you: No Protestant that I can think of would disagree with the second presentation at all. They are two sides of the same coin.
daniellachlanclark 5 months ago
IM not sure where this "Jesus saves us from God" either/or came from or that "god cannot look upon sinners"...I mean, if God is omniscient, then He is aware of our status. It is the Holy Spirit that works with us to restore our relationship to God, but the Spirit had to come via Jesus through the sacrificial system of atonement,, because that was the framework since Abraham, Isaac and the ram.
barfcoswill 5 months ago in playlist barfcoswill's Favorited Videos
* Grr T9 I think we all know I was trying to spell Christians
LightsnTunnels 5 months ago
You didn't compare the 2 beliefs at all you simply tried to bash Protestants we believe all those things about the love of Christ as well. We believe that God loves the sinner just as you do in this skit. These are the kinds of thoughts that just make me so sad and disappointed in christens of all beliefs. We may not have the exact same beliefs but are all reaching for the same goal when it comes to God and Christ. Why can't you just love all why do you have to be hateful towards fellow chris
LightsnTunnels 5 months ago
I am currently agnostic, but still analyzing and searching. I am very critical of this worldview intellectually. However, it is one of the most beautiful views of the universe I have ever seen. I have the same sentimentality for Buddhism and Jainism, and no other sect of Christianity but Orthodoxy entices this feeling.
QuantumMaths 5 months ago
The protestant response is scriptural - what does the bible say?
1) OT sacrificial system, to atone for sin, כפר (kaphar), to cover - sin is covered, God sees sacrifice, not the sinner. Jesus salvic work fulfills this system.
2) NT, Jesus = ransom, common use of λύτρον (lutron), deliverance in exchange for payment, for sin/transgressions.
3) John the Baptist (John 1:29), "lamb of God" i.e., sacrificial..
4) Pauline writings: Rom. 1:18: God's wrath against sin. Rom 3:21-26 Jesus as sacrifice.
barfcoswill 6 months ago
The is the best protestant smack down i've seen. It;s not really a smack down, it's done lovingly. But is really does show the folly of Western Christianity in general, both Protestant and Catholic. It's wonderful that the Christus Victor motif of the atonement is making a comeback within protestant circles.
brendos444 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I've just written a book about Hell & eternity that will be out soon. It talks about what the Scriptures actually say on the subject. Join in the discussion....
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alyssafaithbaer 6 months ago
How did Jews manage to infiltrate Orthodoxy in Russia and kill off 66 million Christians?..
Why were Catholic priests granted immunity IF they converted to Orthodoxy but sent to the Gulags and killed if they did not?
Fatima Movement dot Org
StSimonMartyr 6 months ago
The Orthodox have no issue with the "fear of God", the issue is with how the wrath of God is defined. If you Google "The River of Fire, Kalamiros" there is an excellent essay that further explicates the concept of the video.
sevpr 7 months ago
@sevpr indeed true. In fact right before communion the Deacon proclaim's "In the fear of God, with faith and with love draw near."
5692Nate21 5 months ago
Is Orthodoxy a Religion?: youtube.com/user/GreekOrthodoxTV?feature=mhee#p/c/901C2D8EF7CEC8F1/0/4yZijfXHzKU
GreekOrthodoxTV 2 months ago
Pray for,me please father. Also im a coptic christian and love that our church welcome our eastern brothers and sisters.
lankyknight1990 7 months ago
The orthodox version is much nicer isn't it. If I was a Christian, I might pick that one.
it5ju5talx 7 months ago 3
@it5ju5talx Yeah, it's one of the main reasons I decided to stay a Christian. I really can't stomach the other.
MissJemimaPuddleduck 7 months ago
I was raised Orthodox but came to being a non-denominational Christian, and I have a question. Do you believe that even a person who dies in their sins having rejected Christ will still be saved? Because the Bible speaks of the destiny of those who rejected Christ in various passages (Matthew 13:41-50, Revelation 20:11-15), how do you reconcile that?
I mean I totally agree with you that God will keep persuing us all our life, but if we still reject Him there is nothing more that can be done :(
lorenei 7 months ago
@lorenei Hi, lorenei. Excuse me for jumping in here, but it seems to me that Steve Robinson's presentation here makes sense of the biblical teaching that God loves all, died on behalf of all, wants to save all, and in fact IS the savior of all people, "especially believers" (1 Tim. 4:10), while not denying the teaching that some will choose to hate God and all God stands for, and will face the eternal and inevitable consequences of this "sin unto death." Robinson affirms both truths. God bless.
billybagbom 1 month ago
I am finding a lot of truth in orthodoxy... but I am going to have to agree with l33tpwnzord. God is love, but he is also a God whom we fear. His wrath can not be explained away, and the protestant tradition acknowledges the second part as well as the first.
PK1988 7 months ago
Amen Christ is in our midst
trouter2000 7 months ago
To the old guy:
You act as if protestants do not agree with the 2nd half of the video and that is simply not true. We believe God pursues us. We believe God intervenes at every opportunity to show his love for us.
Alternatively, you cannot simply explain away the wrath of God. Romans 1:18, "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men."
The wrath of God and the love of God are both 100% biblical. It's a both/and scenario.
l33tpwnzord 7 months ago
Please explain these scriptures if everyone will be won in the end. John 3:36 "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him." Mat 7:14 "Enter in through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
iamtamarichka 8 months ago
I love this video! Thanks Father!
jaimesuez 8 months ago
@jaimesuez
"Do not call anyone on earth Father, for you have one Father and he is in heaven"
matthew 23:9
l33tpwnzord 7 months ago
@l33tpwnzord LOL... so, from this verse which says ANYONE, I would hope that you do not call your earthly father... FATHER. Try reading the bible passages you quote in the proper context. It also says to call no man teacher but I'm sure you have disobeyed this as well. Sheesh.
canadagoose4ever 7 months ago
It will be interesting as you read through the comments all the agreements and arguments that do nothing to help the sinner. I found this to be illuminating and helpful at least. Jesus is not Protestant or Orthodox, isn't he "God with us".
industrialart 8 months ago
Which one corresponds with God so loving the world He gave His beloved Son up as a sacrifice for sin as foreshadowed by Abraham's sacrifice, the Passover Lamb sacrifice which turned away the Angel of Death, and all the other sacrifices in the OT? The sacrifice which takes away the sin of the world is Christ Crucified.
onwave 8 months ago
God Bless you Fr. and Many Years!
Just an observation... Maybe the chairs could be put side by side, or even as you've done at the end, on top of each other to imply true union. It is a pity the two objects have to be shown to stay separate - Christ Jesus is all in all.
When in repentance we turn to Him, He's already there - Psalm 139!
Many writers and people of Faith get SOOO close to expressing the Orthodox way, but, for their own reasons, will not enter into that fullness life.
katherine3486 9 months ago
Nice story bro...
wingsawi 10 months ago
Very informative and well made. Thank you for your video.
Nmisling 10 months ago
Why is he in a Coptic Church? I thought that the "My Life In Christ" program was for EasterN Orthodox only.
mishakol129 10 months ago
@mishakol129 I am a member of a Mission Parish of the OCA. With our and the Coptic Bishops' blessings we are currently renting a chapel from a Coptic Church while we are looking for another place to meet.
sevpr 10 months ago 9
I have been brainwashed by a lifetime in Western Christianity.
Personally I find it very difficult to undo.
macpduff 10 months ago
@sevpr
Steve,
First I'd like to say I am a big fan of yours and of anciathradio in general. But I do have a few questions:
1) Is seeing sin as a transgression really that anathema to Orthodox church? It would seem strange that wrath which is so common in the OT would be absolutely disregarded by the church
2) I think RC Sproul (whom I have never really paid attention to) makes a pretty Orthodox statement in likening God's presence to a consuming fire.
ChristianEastern 10 months ago
@ChristianEastern Sin as transgression and wrath are not ignored at all. The liturgical texts are full of references to the wrath of God. The core difference is summed up in RC Sproul's statement: Either God (the Father) is someone that Jesus needs to save us FROM, or the love of God incarnated in His Son can be experienced as "fire" (ie, the Pharisees, the Elder brother, etc.) rather than "light and warmth" (ie., the Prodigal Son, the sinners, etc.).
sevpr 10 months ago
He is in Sheol??????????What?????????
Joyce4Christ 10 months ago
@Joyce4Christ It is a verse from the Psalms.
sevpr 10 months ago
@sevpr Sheol is the grave.
daveincsa 9 months ago
@Joyce4Christ It's also in the Creeds
"He descended into Hell" (Sheol),......
He set the Captives free. Yes Jesus was is and will be everywhere - because he is Omnipresent.
There is nowhere where He is not,- even having the power to come and go at will from Satan's stronghold - the place of death and captivity.
What trips me up is the difference between the Orthodox message of GOOD News, and the Protestant message of no free will, and having to appease an angry God.
Two very different Gospels
macpduff 10 months ago
@Joyce4Christ
Sheol is the Hebrew place of death--it's not hell, it is death or the grave.
AmyEWharton 5 months ago
So I've been interested in orthodoxy for a while and having a mainly protestant based knowledge of theology, I've been struggling with the understanding of the reason that Jesus was crucified from the orthodox perspective. From what I garnished, the crucifixion is the ultimate demonstration of co-suffering love and reconciliation of mankind despite man's sinful condition (exemplified in the killing Jesus) I would appreciate help on understanding this issue
trapach 10 months ago
Thanks for posting this video. As a former Evangelical who is attracted to the Othodox Church, this video is very helpful to me. Hope you post more. "Christ is risen from the dead trampling down death by death and to those in the tombs bestowing life."
HannahIm 11 months ago
Orthodox wisdom. I love it.
eilirudy 1 year ago
I believe man turned his back on God and God pursues humanity through the substitutionary sacrifice of his son. God cannot leave justice undone so in order that man might be able to have fellowship with God again he fulfills all righteousness himself by taking the penalty of sin himself. This concept is present throughout scripture, beginning with God's mercy for Adam and Eve in 'clothing' them in animal skins. We are now 'clothed' eternally with Christ, and union with God by his Holy Spirit. x
WotchDis 1 year ago
@WotchDis So why does God have to do justice? Is there some law by which God has to follow? In that this law is in control of God? Why does he need to follow justice? How do we understand justice? It is through a western legalistic view? Why do we view a God who has to follow some kind unwritten law of justice? So why does God have to follow justice?
srb584 10 months ago
@srb584 That's like asking why a serial killer murders people, the question answers itself. It's simply his nature. How do we understand justice? The first step would be to let the word justice leave your mind, terminology will make you mad and keep you running in circles. Do you expect an ant to understand how you operate?
Trying to comprehend god, something that created everything is silly.
theuppro 7 months ago
@theuppro Thank you for the stereo typical answer.
srb584 6 months ago
The most telling part of the Protestant illustration was that all the change was happening to God, rather than change happening to people (God turns His back, God must have His honor avenged, God needs something to tolerate humanity, etc). The Orthodox illustration made the opposite point very clear as God's chair always seeks the human chair and the change (repentance & theosis), rightly takes place in humanity. Very cool illustration Steve! ~ oruaseht
theschultzclan 1 year ago 8
While I do believe in "Universal salvation" of sorts... I can't help but question the whole theory about God turning His back on sinful mankind... take Adam for example... he sins in the garden... did God turn His back on Adam... no, the exact opposite actually, God went too look for Adam and talk with him.
Christ took away sin not so much to "satisfy" an angry God, but rather as a physical example that restored mankind's conscience to a clear state so we can approach God without guilt.
LoveJesusNotReligion 1 year ago
@LoveJesusNotReligion Exactly. Man turned his back on God.
glocksout 1 year ago
I like I do, but there is no "Protestant" belief on the subject but rather many That is part of the problem with Protestantism. RC Spoul is reformed which is very much different than Wesleyan and primitive Baptist or even Lutherans. The Orthodox position is the right position even if it could not adequately be explained by chairs or Astrophysics. In general the Reformed view man as the enemy of God rather than God the ally of mankind. Oddly that view leads to works righteousness in my experience
thepaintman80 1 year ago
It is such a humbling mystery for our finite minds, but Glory Be to God!
lyralong 1 year ago