Nicholas interprets this bitter return to the homeland in a very expressive way. At first I found the eye movements distracting in the recitative, but I now see they are his way of underlining the text and gazing as he sings. The sound is wonderful.
... the rest of so-called "countertenors" are nothing but guys like the one you wanted me to watch on that funny video: terrible staccato, legato, fiato, coloratura. They just shout and scream, no more than this. Of course, voice with disgusting unrefined sounds is far from making me feel interested in what they may be singing.
En gustos se rompen géneros, pero esta aria, a mi opinión, sólo le va a una verdadera mezzosoprano o una contralto. Los contratenores la cantan bien, sólo uno que otro, pero incluso la señora Podles, Kasarova o Horne la cantan con una extensión vocal más amplia y con mayor habilidad: graves màs potentes que en esta interpretación y una facilidad para ir de nota a nota y con mayor energìa, por eso Rossini se las escribió a las mujeres con esas capacidades.
@oceanodefuego1 Hi friend, nice to meet you here:-)We already agreed to disagree as tastes differ. You can prefer female singers for whom Rossini originally wrote this MAN's role according to that weird fashion, but FASHION eventially can change too giving way to LOGIC! But I'd also like to remind you your own comment to my point that this world is ruled by men and MEN enjoy "lesbian shows" when women hug and kiss each other and those in charge of opera productions prefer to give them such roles
@serenaluce Sorry, I know you admire this guy a lot. Actually I really enjoy a woman (mezzo or alto) who sings with a low vocal range, because she still sounds femenine, her tone and pitch are not totally manish, despite she hits a do6; she seems energetic, powerful and deserves my respect because she has that skill. A woman who sings with a high vocal range is so sweet and lovely. I thought women liked men with powerful and heavy voices, not men trainned to sing high notes like women.
@oceanodefuego1 Dear friend, nothing to be sorry about. YT was created to allow people to exchange their opinions. We are having an interesting discussion here and it's all very civilized:-). Where else could we meet like that and express our considerations and preferences? Also, I think that mainly men express their opinion of this kind of singing and women don't say that openly as me what they like:-). Actually, women are different too, and can like different men:-)....
@serenaluce and maybe, the sound here on this video isn't of HQ. And actually an alto man can be distinguished from a woman even if she's a contralto. Some bad countertenors try to sound so femenine that they totally destroy the composition. perhaps i haven't heard many good countertenors and the ones i've heard are simply a fake, some shout like drag queens, because they don't have the voice to sing the aria they are singing.
@oceanodefuego1 You are right about FAKE COUNTERTENORS who can destroy the composition and sound like DRAG QUEENS. Actually, as I said before it's more a social matter now than a musical. People are still so ignorant and need education. Many still think that singing in falsetto is an indication of sexual orientation which is not. Any bass can be straight or gay but people only listen to his SINGING. So, if he can be gay, his BASS shows it? It's only takes GREAT ART to sing great in CT technique!
@oceanodefuego1 So, there's a big difference between REAL CTs and FAKE CTs, just men singing in falsetto classical stuff without balls, any paying attention to the image, just producing high notes in FLAT voices without any depth of interpretation and LOW notes at all to please the crowd with lovely sounds. Notice that it's a very demanding aria and only STRONG men can sing it. They need all our support and respect so that more MANLY MEN become CTs and sing such roles without DISCRIMINATION!
@oceanodefuego1 And whom people know most of all now and think that he is a COUNTERTENOR only because PROMOTION artificially made him "the best countertenor in the world"? Philippe Jaroussky, who is just a miserable PARODY on a CT. He is just a FALSETTIST, like historical falsettists who were different from castrati who sounded MANLY, had a wide chest and expressed HUMAN EMOTIONS. Falsettists on the contrary PRETENDED that they are WOMEN, ANGELS, TEENAGES,etc, which made them in reality SEXLESS!
@oceanodefuego1 So, of course, when people hear such a parody on castrati PJ and good female contraltos they think that women sound "manlier" as good female singers have full voice and not just HIGH register to sing in a pleasing manner like a servant. Try yourself to speak on only high notes and you'll understand that such people who do it can't be sincere and express all range of human emotions. So, PJ is a POP FALSETTIST and should only sing in pop shows like Klaus Nomi with his painted nails
@oceanodefuego1 Yes, I agree there are good countertenors who are strong men to sing such difficult vocal acrobatics with easy, and Andreas Scholl is one of them. PJ doesn't sing it and prefers something easier or almost unknown so that people can't compare him with TRUE artists, though he is so overpromoted now that became a TREND and people just applaud him as it's FASHION too. It's WEIRD when a supposedly MATURE man sounds FEMININE, but our task to tell REAL ARTISTS from FAKES, tell QUALITY!
@oceanodefuego1 Tastes differ. I understand your point too. I'm only against your statement that you can hear better applauds than the voice. I listened to Spanos first on YT and made my own conclusion that he has a strong chest and very strong voice but I wanted to hear him live to be absolutely sure. In reality his voice sounds even better and stronger as no mike can catch all the nuances. You can come to his performance and make your own opinion, otherwise for now you have to believe me!:-)
@serenaluce Well, I wrote that Orfeo could possibly be a castrato, because for me it's the only way so that he enchanted both men and women. Actually, if I were the author of that story, i'd have decided such fact. But as you expressed it, it's just a stuff of voice preferences
@oceanodefuego1 Interesting that we both think that Orfeo sang in a HIGH voice and not basso profondo as for me such low sounds can only come from hell!LOL Just my opinion as some people think that it's heavenly:-)So, you think that only a castrato-like voice could enchant both men and women? Not a baritone?:-)Well, there are some natural unbroken high male voice who could be considered natural castrati, so called endocrinological castrati, but there only only few of them in the world.
@serenaluce wELL, ACTUALLY I don't think low voices are from hell. that's something like saying that high voices are a product of rats or chipmunks in cartoons. So a baritone can be enjoyable in his interpretations. If I were an opera singer i'd like to be a baritone or a bass, even a tenor
@oceanodefuego1 Come on, I only joked and said that it's my opinion about basso profondo. Please, don't say such offensive words about HIGH voices:-) Actually, at the time of baroque church used castrati with HIGH voices to attract people by sensual pleasures as NO OTHER voices could do it and sometimes basses to potray DEVIL, and not on the contrary. CASTRATO was the MAIN character for MANLY men and all the other voices were subbodinate to it. Women were only CHEAPER substitute to them...
@oceanodefuego1 We are living now at a wonderful time as thank God there are no castrati anymore and this butchery is only in the past but we still can hear wonderful HIGH voices thanks to CTs with advanced modern technique who have of course different vocal characteristics but still by TECHNIQUE are the closest substitute to castrati! Actually, if Rossini wanted to forget about CASTRATI but had only sexless falsettists why didn't he give this WARROR's role to a MAN, a TENOR or BARITONE?!...
@serenaluce Well, i once wrote Rossine wanted to keep castrati's voices in, let's say, natural ways, those ways were through women with wide vocal ranges (contraltos and mezzos), especially because they are more natural, countertenors most of the time have to use falsetto. This technique, of course, is not a bad source for singing, but that's way many countertenors do not have enough force to sing properly and powerfully when women can do that...
@oceanodefuego1 That's why I said before that only physically STRONG men can sing properly in countertenor technique, and there's a big difference between a REAL COUNTERTENOR who sings not only in falsetto, but also uses his chest voice and mix and just FALSETTISTS like Philippe Jaroussky, who can be anorexic and weak and only sing in FLAT voices in falsetto on HIGH NOTES without any depth who don't have enough breath control to express all range of HUMAN EMOTIONS ant pretend there're angels...
@serenaluce For sure I knew women can use falsetto to sing, but in anatomy and music studies, it has been proved that a woman singing a flat, sharp or natural Fa , for example, there's not much difference since women do use vocal chords fully, even in falsetto, but it doesn't happen when men do that, because their vocal chords are thicker and larger. Thus, countertenors only use the frotal part of vocal chords (lips) to produce high notes. This is the origin of powerful voices in women...
@oceanodefuego1 I understand that you are a straight man and like women too much:-). Good for you, and I don't care for this terminology, but falsetto is falsetto, and a woman singing in falsetto doesn't use her vocal cords fully. Even amateurs, you and me can make such an experiment. I'm a woman, so I tried:-) You are trying again to prove that women's vocal cords are better, but it's NOT, they are just DIFFERENT! How come then that some men sing in falsetto more POWERFULLY than some women?
@serenaluce All right, but falsetto is not the whole singing, there are more techniques that have to be used to show that an opera singer is an outstanding one. AGITA DA DUE VENTI IS AN EASY ARIA, but for a coloratura mezzo, like Ms Bartoli, but not for a ridiculous cheap DRAG QUEEN. Though the CHEAP CLOWN was really hilarious ;)
@oceanodefuego1 Come on, I sent you Kimchillia Bartoli's PARODY not to insult him and call a DRAG QUEEN but exactly with an opposite purpose - to show that Ms Bartoli doesn't shine there at all, and it's not AN EASY ARIA for her.Please, what happened to your sense of HUMOUR?! It was presented as a PARODY and not TRUE BAROQUE.Why do you call him a CHEAP CLOWN? He is a COUNTERTENOR. Actually I don't like his MUCH vibrato in serious stuff but he MASTERFULLY showed Bartoli's CLUCKING HEN's technique
@serenaluce aLL RIGHT! Actually I caught on the humour on that video. That guy imitating Ms Bartoli's singing is far from being better than her. come on my friend! There are some intervals which he doesn't sing, he speaks. To my ears, the guy's singing is simply, how could I express this, not to effend him? Well he sings like a man trying to seem to a mezzo. This is unbelievable but not for a good reason! That's why I wrote that a countertenor dies singing a coloratura musical piece.
@oceanodefuego1 The Korean CT deliberately imitated a woman there, namely Bartoli's singing with her awful vibrato and UGLY forced low notes as if she were a man! And he sang this VERY DIFFICULT TECHNICALLY ARIA Agitata da due venti much more superior than her! Come on, a CHEAP CLOWN is PHILIPPE JAROUSSKY who is NOT manly at all, and makes CHEAP POP of classics pretending that he is a woman, "angel" or retarded teenager. E.g. singing Tamerlano as A CHEAP PARODY as a TEDDYBEAR and CHEATS!...
@serenaluce Well, I think this is an endless discussion, finally you like one sort of timbre and so it happens with me. For me a good voice -as I once wrote, makes me feel courage, intensity, happiness, sadness, love, etc., To do so, it MUST be a tenor, a baritone or a bass; a soprano, a mezzo and a contralto. Out of this classification, there isn't anything awesome (with the exception of very few countertenors, maybe 2 or 3)...
@oceanodefuego1 OK, I agree this is an endless discussion, and again nothing more than just exchanging OPINIONS. It's your opinion against mine, and you can't be righter than me. But you are painfully prejudiced against COUNTERTENORS which is sad. You wrote all this about BAD CTS. Bad singers there're in ANY voice category! A BAD bass or mezzo won't make you feel courage, intensity, etc...It's just strange that you write so many about BAD CTS on the video of objectively one of the BEST - SPANOS!
@serenaluce The only countertenor that really sings so proprerly, for me, is Andreas Scholl, he knows when to go higher and lower, and he does it so perfectly that he can be powerful and kind, you know he's got a voice range between mezzo and contralto. Jaroussky is also a good countertenor only for high sweet notes, and actually easy musical pieces. He, as a matter of fact, is not very clever to hit low notes, but it's great listening to that bright timbre...
@oceanodefuego1 Friend, I don't want to quarrel with you:-). It's only YOUR own very prejudiced OPINION, and actually you don't know much of good countertenors and just can't appreciate them. Andreas Scholl is very good. It's all SUBJECTIVE who is the best ever. For me Scholl isn't THE ONLY as I respect him but his voice with all his right things is a bit too COLD for me. Spanos is much superior to him as he has HUGE RANGE and sounds WARM. PJ is NOT a COUNTERTENOR but POP FALSETTIST! Good bye!
@oceanodefuego1 Actually, PJ is very SMART from the commercial, not ARTISTIC point of view. He only has an ability to produce HIGH SWEET notes singing in falsetto, that's IT. As I said before there's something special only in HIGH MALE voices. Well, some people, both women and men are just DRUGGED hearing ANY MALE singing in falsetto to rave on YT that life is worth living just because they heard this "artificial sweet poison". It's like narcotic for them. Not for ME! He has NO LOW NOTES at all!
@serenaluce I accept that there are great arias sung by a countertenor, i.e.: "Ombra mai fù", Andreas Scholl sings it so accurately and many other arias that Händel formerly wrote for Senesino, a contralto castrato. This countertenor also sings "Carmen" so unbelievable; "Lascia ch'io pianga" sung by P. Jaroussky and some other arias that are suitable for his voice.
@oceanodefuego1 Actually, here I can't agree with you at all. My position has always been that men should sing men's roles, and women women's. That's why I prefer countertenors singing CASTRATI repertoire. But it's also phychological stuff. I prefer LOGIC! OK, in recreation of some baroque operas where women were not allowed on stage I accept that CTs sing women like in Sant'Alessio, but it's WEIRD too when they sing a WOMAN'S aria "Lascia ch'io pianga". Why Scholl sang this pop with Carmen?!
@serenaluce Well, i think it happens the same with women singing men's arias, but those countertenors actually do it properly, acceptably, showing their vocal gifts. Marco Lazzara seems to be a good countetenor, listen to "Di tanti palpiti" with him, perhaps you are going to like his performance, his vocal range is between that of Spanos, Scholl and Jaroussky. That countertenor rocks, he has very bright notes and then he goes to dramatic tenor. Listen to him and tell me what you think about him
@oceanodefuego1 Dear friend are you serious about Marco Lazzara's Di tanti palpiti?Don't be offended but you have such a perversive taste in music! LOL You like all kinds of "transvestite shows" - if it's a lesbian show when a woman is dressed as a man sings pretending that she is a man,or on the contrary - when a man looks manly but when he sings this WARRIOR's aria he pretends that he is a WOMAN and sings with a WOMAN's coloratura! Give me a break.It's what I call A GRAG QUEEN! Read my comment
@oceanodefuego1 Really, give me a break. If you prefer women sing this MAN's aria, listen to them and imagine that your girl friend is singing it to me. Don't worry, be happy!:-) Beauty is in the ear of the listener, and different people hear the same stuff in a different way. You are appalled that a CT makes a parody on Bartoli and call him cheap clown, speak about somewhat RANGE and can't hear that PJ has NO RANGE and you call him CT. After Lazzara I need to listen to MANLY SPANOS to feel OK!
@serenaluce Don't worry if you say I'm sort of perverted, because everybody somehow shows perversion. If not, why did castrati exist? Even you have a perversive taste affirming that the guy imitating Ms Bartoli on the video is cleverer than her... Everybody has a vocal range, even Jaroussky whose range is mainly that of a sopranist, not a soprano, because you know a soprano goes higher to an F#6 or more.
@oceanodefuego1 Dear friend, I'm having such a fun with you on YT! LOL Actually, I'm less perversive than you saying that women should sing only WOMEN's roles and men only MEN's like this WARRIOR's aria! But if you think that I'm a pervert, I really don't care:-). Actually, it's YOU who wanted a CT to sing this WOMAN's aria "Agitata da due venti" and said that it's VERY EASY for a FEMALE MEZZO, and CTs can't sing it like Bartoli. I proved that actually CAN, but that CT singing it is a PARODY!
@serenaluce I totally agree with you! everybody has different ear tastes. I don't know if it depends upon the language we speak. So, if we listen to an "a" E3 (sound, not vowel) the beauty of the sound will be heard in distinct ways by a Spaniard or an English. Now, related to alto Marco Lazzara, his voice is the closest to how "di tanti palpiti" should be sung and actually he reminds me Ewa Podles and Marilyn Horne...
@oceanodefuego1 Again, it's LIVE MUSIC, but you prefer to discuss THEORY giving me somewhat letters in different languages. Actually, I hated solfeggio in music school, and I'm happy now that I can listen to the MUSIC as an AMATEUR without thinking about those keys but am capable of being carried away to a better world by the BEAUTY of Spanos's very HIGH, ENCHANTING and very MANLY singing! If it's APPEALING to you, no matter what language you speak, the HUMAN VOICE is the UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE!
@oceanodefuego1 Actually, I'm Russian with some Italian and some other bloods. So what? Music unites us all and is understandable to everybody if it's APPEALING. But there's no artist in the world who would be APPEALING TO EVERYBODY! Again, it's only your OPINION how this aria COULD be sung but you can't declare how it SHOULD be. You are a more PERVERT than me as you claim that you can't stand transvestite shows but prefer Lazzara who imitates WOMEN as you prefer LESBIAN SHOWS of men's roles!LOL
@serenaluce... and it also depends upon how we listen to the distinct sounds sequences. For me, in a musical piece like "Di tanti palpiti" and all the Baroque ones, have their beauty in the "exquisite" and clever performance of high-low notes, apart from acting and all the elements that make it interesting. Sincerely speaking, i don't really care if a man or a woman does it, how notes are produced is what really enchants me...
@serenaluce... going back to Lazzara, the way he sings "Di tanti palpiti" is how I expect an alto man sings this aria: excellent, powerful and bright notes to refer to Amenaide to express love, satisfaction; and powerful, deep notes to express a complaint.
@oceanodefuego1 Again, as I see it, you have a very perversive taste in music:-). Well, about castrati. It's a shame of the past. Church began to use them as people lost faith and wanted to lure them with SENSUAL PLEASURES as again there's SPECIAL MAGIC only in HIGH MALE VOICES. But I'm happy that now there are COUNTERTENORS who render HEAVENLY BEAUTY by TECHNIQUE! I expect from a MAN to sing it as a MAN, like Spanos with MANLY POWER,and not like Lazzara to IMITATE low WOMAN's, contralto singing
@serenaluce Well, i don't want to say who is more reasonable than the other or who is more perverted than the other. It's just a point of view and our thoughts can't be changed "right away" and even farther, our ear tastes totally differ, perhaps by a psychological fact. That's why there's a lot of music variety and thanks for this. Some like countertenors, some like tenors and so forth...
@serenaluce All voices are awesome according to their timbres and these can render beauty. But at the end of this "written conversation" I only can express that in fine arts (music, opera in this case) BEAUTY GOES BEYOND SEX and so it has been proved: women (mezzos and contraltos) going low and high with increadible ability to trasmit affection or courage. The same happens with men (some countertenors) who transmit calmess with their middle range voice.
@serenaluce An excellent voice is always going to be an excellent voice. So a voice CAN'T EVER BE that of a hen cluking or something like that. On the other hand, a man's voice can't be compared with a woman's one, a contralto is a contralto and a countertenor is a countertenor. Sorry for some spelling mistakes. No one is better than the other, they are just different with more or less skills. it has been a pleasure to write with you. Cheerio! ;)
@oceanodefuego1 Dear, it's been a pleasure for me to exchange opinions here with you too:-). Actually, it's not the end and we can meet on another video and continue our interesting discussions there too:-). Yes, beauty really goes BEYOND SEX. And I don't say that women's voices can't be beautiful and that I'm obsessed with only CT singing:-). But in other voice categories MEN are compared with MEN, and WOMEN with WOMEN. BEAUTY is subjective. I still prefer man's stuff to be sung by MEN!:-)Bye!
@serenaluce For sure I know that a contralto is a contralto, never a tenor. I have always referred to Ms Podles as a contralto, but if a woman is a contralto -a pure one, is because her vocal range goes from trebble to tenor, maybe a Do3-Mi6. Sorry if I don't write the notes in English, it's just that I'm not accustomed to using them. I never said that women are better than men, but you know that nature has given you that flexibility in vocal cords....
@oceanodefuego1 Actually, I don't give a damn about all this termilogy in English or Spanish. It's not a THEORY of music, and not MEDICINE or ANATOMY to go deep inside singer's throats and examine flexibility and the LENGTH of their vocal cords. It's LIVE MUSIC! All I care is the BEAUTY OF THE SOUND and sharing SOUL according to the IMAGE! This is not a BATTLE where somewhat AMAZON WOMEN with more flexible cords beat men. You can also say that women WIN THE BATTLE as they have bigger boobies!LOL
@serenaluce You know, the smaller the vocal cords the more flexible they are. That's why they (women) win the battle. Now, according to what i watched on a music programme, head voice and falsetto in women is almost the same, for the device used to prove this idea displayed so, but it was totally different when a countertenor sang in natural voice and falsetto. With him, the device displayed that he only used the frontal part of his vocal cords, not so fully as the mezzo did.
@serenaluce You know that castrati were astonishing middle men (with all the respect they deserve). But if their castration hadn't been feasible, what would come later? Dou you think Farinelli, Senesino, Bernachi, Caffarelli, Grimaldi, Ferri, Velluti would have had those angel voices if they hadn't been "torn out" part of their manhood?
@oceanodefuego1 Again, I don't care how CTs do it, and with what part of their vocal cords or any other part of their body they produce such HEAVENLY BEAUTY, this special COLOUR and QUALITY which no women could replace. You analize too much. It's impossible to explain MAGIC. Just enjoy it! I know what castration is, all this and thank God it's in the PAST! Aren't you as a MAN happy that nobody's manhood is "torn out" anymore and TECHNIQUE is used to give us a glimpse of castrati's HEAVEN?!
@serenaluce men are strong, but in opera, when trying to "revive" castrati's arias, let's face it, countertenors can't simply win the battle. Some countertenors sometimes focus too much upon hitting high notes, that they forget the intensity or courage of the musical piece. Or they hit the high note, but lose strength in the other parts of the aria, giving the impression of a monotonous interpretation
@oceanodefuego1 I understand too that you want so much your girl friend to sing such arias for you dressed as a man and pretending she is a man. You already confessed that you like this kind of lesbian show, and you agreed with me too that this world is ruled by MEN. That's why those in charge of opera productions still prefer this weird fashion to give castrati roles to WOMEN and not to good CTs as they drool over women hugging and kissing each other on stage. That's how women "win" the battle!
@serenaluce I would say that mezzos, contraltos and some countertenors are the only ones that can sing castrati's arias, but rewritten for their vocal range. But let's face it, no countertenor can beat a mezzo or contralto throughout the voice acrobatics. A countertenor simply dies when singing "qual guerriero in campo armato" or "Agitata da due venti" or some other arias that only coloratura mezzos have mastered. Countertenors sing VERY EASY compositions, for their voice
@oceanodefuego1 Again it's only exchange of OPINIONS on YT, and you can't be righter than me. Again I'm telling you that singing is SEXUAL STUFF, and you can prefer women in men's roles not because they are really BETTER, but as you are a MAN and turned on by low sensual sirens-like singing from which sailors at open sea went mad. And it's now your male logic against my female. CTs aren't supposed to BEAT women! I hope they are gentlemen! LOL Also Agitata is a woman's aria.BS about "VERY EASY"..
@oceanodefuego1 Also, it's only your opinion that a CT "dies" in Agitata da due venti. And only coloratura mezzos have mastered it. Do you mean that "castrated castrato" Cecilia Bartoli who "castrated" castrati repertoir of their beauty, and with "innocent" eyes says nonsense on YT about her cheap commercial crap album "Sacrificium" that she can put a man's voice in a woman's body and can show how castrati could sound? I'll send you link with a CT parody on Bartoli Kimchilia Bartoli.It's GREATER
@oceanodefuego1 There a Korean COUNTERTENOR masterfully renders Bartoli's clucking hen's technique in "Agitata da due venti" which I presume you find superior to CT's and shows a great display of all expressive means, and it sounds much BETTER! It can be found on my channel in my favourites. Also, unlike you I prefer LOGIC in opera and BEAUTY of singing, so in general I'm against CTs singing women's arias, but Manzotti sings Agitata much more beautiful and impressive than Bartoli...
@serenaluce Ragin is an amazing alto man, but he is not very skillful in high notes and he loses strength in coloratura so he sings a little slow. You know the soprano had to sing the extremely high notes. In "Venti turbini" David Daniels doesn't have the ability and force to hit the Mi note that the master Podles hits. And what about the ending? Podles' real tenor voice at the ending is really breathtaking!
@oceanodefuego1 Also, we again come to the same point that Rossini gave this MANLY CHARACTER's role not according to LOGIC to a man, e.g. tenor to forget about castrati but only because of WEIRD FASHION of that time to a woman. You prefer women as you are a MAN, and try to degrade CTs finding any kinds of flaws in them, I prefer LOGIC and BEAUTY. Listen to your women, but CTs can sing such roles now. All tastes are legitimate. There's no such thing as a woman's TENOR. Podles is CONTRALTO!
@oceanodefuego1 And the last point: you can not like Ragin, and his technique isn't so great and refined in comparison with Spanos's, but soprano Ewa Malas-Godlewska sang high notes and he middle and low only for the film Farinelli, il Castrato. It was a different task to show approximately how a CASTRATO voice could sound. And not that Ragin himself can't sing high notes. It's very controversial as it's a computer created voice. I think that his NATURAL voice is much BETTER than SPOILT by her.
@oceanodefuego1 That's why I say again that it's more a SOCIAL problem and confusion with hystorical FALSETTISTS than musical when now we have more and more real countertenors how sing MANLY with ADVANCED TECHNIQUE, all 3 well-developed registers, deep LOW NOTES but they are discriminated and compared with women as just falsettists whose purpose was exactly opposite to castrati - to show their sexual ambiguity.If STRONG men were not discriminated and supported there would be MORE countertenors!
@serenaluce ... for example, Cecilia Bartoli is the only mezzo that has sung "Son qual nave" almost perfectly. There isn't any countertenor that has sung that terribly difficult aria the same way she does. or what about "Venti turbini" Podles really "rocks" in that aria. Why do I write this, because those arias were written for castrati, but after them, women were the only ones that really mastered them.
@oceanodefuego1 Concerning Cecilia Bartoli we have absolutely different tastes here and we'll never agree:-) I can't stand her clucking hen's technique and ugly visceral special effects only to stir listener's guts. She can't be perfect as she is a "castrated castrato" as she castrated them of BEAUTY of singing. Ragin in Farinelli il Castrato sings it much BETTER. Also Venti turbini ... The most beautiful version I've heard so far is Daniels's with his strong enough voice.Women didn't master it.
@serenaluce most countertenors have excellent low notes, but at the moment of singing a high one, in difficult arias they really "suffer" or make their voice suffer since their ability and anatomy doesn't allow them to sing high notes the way a woman does. And surely, if i listen to a man performing a warrior's role, for me it should be a tenor, a baritone or a bass who sings it....
@oceanodefuego1 Come on, you again speak from the man's point of view and just prefer women's singing as it's sexual stuff and many men just prefer to see women in men's roles hugging and kissing each other. Men's anatomy allows men to be stronger in general than women. It's strange to hear it from a man. And singing is no exception. A men's throat is just different from a woman's and allows to produce more nuaces. Actually women can sing in falsetto too to produce HIGH notes. Didn't know it?
@serenaluce IF we talk about ancient times, as part of history, a contralto or a mezzo should sing those warriors roles. A good countertenor can also do it, but it depends upon his vocal range and ability, he should not try to sing arias that his voice can't "support". otherwise we immediately notice that he is singing like a drag queen.
@oceanodefuego1 Well, I wouldn't talk about "ancient times" but only several centuries ago about the time called baroque age and castrati singing. The main character again was not a countertenor and not a falsettist as they had CASTRATI, mighty singing machines, didn't care about human cost and didn't pay much attention to TECHNIQUE to produce high sounds. Women were just CHEAPER SUBSTITUTE to CASTRATI! REAL CTS are the closest one! Only falsettists like PJ or Klaus Nomi sing like a DRAG QUEEN!
@serenaluce A man with natural voice (tenor, baritone or bass) is not able to sing such arias because simply his tone and pitch doesn't have the ability and range to hit extremely high notes requiered for those compositions. Remember that the above mentioned masculine voices were born recently, for they were formerly castrati. But thanks God nowadays exist tenors, baritones and basses and now we can enjoy these true men in warriors' roles.
@oceanodefuego1 Don't you think that if lower MALE voices are also as good as high male voices it would be only LOGICAL to see a strong MALE character in armours sung by a MANLY MAN but in only a lower voice?! Actually, a good bass is much better than a bad CT! But here again we come to our initial point that there's SPECIAL MAGIC only in HIGH MALE voices and nowhere else who sound very MANLY if don't fake a woman. But only because of that time WEIRD FASHION Rossini gave it to a woman. Why else?
@oceanodefuego1 So, Orfeo could really be one of them and sang in his natural unbroken voice. But he could be a countertenor too and manipulate his voice. Muth says that he was also a poet and played on his lyre. He could also play on his vocal cords too to produce higher sounds:-). Singing in falsetto is more natural than to be a hormonal castrato as a boy's voice should normally break at puberty. Everybody can sing in falsetto, both men and women but not everybody does it very well!
@oceanodefuego1 You can enjoy women singing this role. It can really be powerful and sweet and lovely for you as a man but please listen to what I think from a woman's point of view:-). Some women really like only men who speak or sing in basses and have heavy voices, but many women with open-mind ENJOY countertenor singing very much. Very often they just don't confess it as usually MEN tell them that it's all weird, men should sound manly, insult them if they like it and tell them to shut up!
@oceanodefuego1 I judge from my own experience.But like in real life not all men are simple, speak in basses and have their hands dirty all the time dealing with cars which many men and women take for being TRUE MEN, very MANLY:-) some can be very intelligent and sophisticated! Actually as a woman I like such men:-). But we are talking OPERA now. I disagree with you that CTs are trained to sing high notes LIKE WOMEN! True CTs, not just falsettists look and sing very MANLY too no matter how high
@serenaluce And as I once wrote, mezzos and contraltos not always sing men's arias or compositions. Their acting in those roles is due to history: quio prior est tempore, potior est jure. Thus women, after castrati, were given the task to sing men's roles with low-high notes.
@oceanodefuego1 "...As i'm a man, i'd rather listen to the soprano's version, more than the countertenor's one. Because i imagine my girlfriend's singing me that, hahaha!" And actually, you are not the first man who says it from my own experience. I'd also like to stress my point that the reason for it can not be only MUSICAL, but also social and a MEN'S preference against WOMEN'S! I'm married but also could imagine my boyfriend sing to me this MAN'S aria, and I don't want any lesbian show:-).
@oceanodefuego1 My point is that there's SPECIAL MAGIC only in high male voices and no women have it no matter how great they are as they have a DIFFERENT body, different resonance and different COLOUR and QUALITY of the voice! Also, no matter how wondefully technically and emotionally they sing they can't sound MANLIER if they sing LOWER than men singing HIGHER! It's just the wrong superficial IMPRESSION. But men can just find female singing more appealing to THEM as singing is sexual stuff.
@oceanodefuego1 Remember how sensual sounded sirens' low, deep, visceral singing to hungry sailors who were in the sea for a long time and just went mad from it? But the Greek myth says nothing if such singing made normal women crazy and in normal conditions! LOL But another Greek myth says that Orfeo with his heavenly singing enchanted BOTH men and women with BEAUTY! I'm sure that Orfeo sang in HIGH voice and wasn't basso profondo! LOL Also, Spanos's voice is VERY STRONG! Listen to it LIVE!
@serenaluce Spanos is incredible here. The voice is in excellent form, and he's acting out the role instead of just standing there like a lump as so many artists do in concert appearances. He's even acting during the orchestral introduction. this is one of his best. He sounds better than ever!
@arpeggio1358 Absolutely. I don't know why some people think that Spanos's voice isn't so strong jugding from this amateur unprocessed recording and confuse poor quality of recording with actual STRENGHT of the voice. But if they hear well applause they should also hear the voice. They are just prejudiced against CTs! I agree too that Podles and Horne are great but it doesn't mean that CTs sound WEAKER! Also, it's so nice to see ACTING in recitals! He also acted in Va tacito in recital in Athens
@serenaluce It's very difficult to compare mezzos and contraltos in trouser roles with CT's. They are two different things. Both have merit in these roles. I think so many of the men who don't like CT's are simply uncomfortable with the idea of a man who sings in the same vocal range as a woman. They need to get over this discomfort. The roles are those of men, no matter whether a mezzo, contralto, or CT sings them. They need to just enjoy the music no matter who sings it.
@arpeggio1358 It's really very difficult to compare female singers in trouser roles with CTs. They all have their merits. I'm for expanding musical horizons. Actually, people say that Rossini wrote this role for a woman, and it sounds like a SENTENCE. And nobody challenges why the hell great composer didn't write e.g. WARROR's role for a TENOR, why give it to a WOMAN to forget about castrati?Only because of that time weird FASHION! But if it's written for a HIGH voice COUNTERTENORS can sing it!
@serenaluce About Orfeo, as you wrote, it was just a myth. Actually we don't know how he sounded, maybe he sang like a castrato, so he didn't have a human voice. Or maybe he sang so manish, even with a voice out of this world. Remember that ancient Geeks lived in a macho world. For me he sang like a castrato, if he enchanted both men and women with a heavenly voice.
@oceanodefuego1 I think that if men sing in a CT technique sound like women to you, it's because YOU have an untrained ear yet, and not that they really sound like that as they have a different COLOUR and QUALITY OF SOUND PRODUCTION! Man's body is different, they have Adam's apple, and the resonance is different. Only if they deliberately want to sound like women they do it and can cheat somebody, but not everybody:-). I think that if you just listen to more real CTs you can hear the difference.
@oceanodefuego1 Well, myths are based on real facts. And in real life people heard real MAN's singing that impressed them so much that myth was born. Well, I don't think that Orfeo was a castrato as he was married to Euridice:-). I think that more likely he was a countertenor as it's all natural to sing in falsetto and has nothing to do with sexual orientation as many people mistakenly think. Of course, these are only my speculations:-). I think that we all still live in the macho world:-).
@serenaluce Mayme it's a psychological impression, but a mezzo or a contralto can be so sweet or energetic if she wishes. It just depends upon the ability to go from high to low notes. Some countertenors have this skill, but many of them are not really natural and they just shout.
@MisterPapageno You totally agree with what? That men prefer women in men's roles as they are so excited seeing women kissing and hugging each other on stage as a lesbian show and don't care about any logic?:-) You want your girldfriend to sing such stuff to you too dressed as a man like oceanodefuego's?;-) Men's solidarity? You don't care what women who have sensitive ears and who can tell a manly man's singing from a woman's and just falsettists like PJ or drag queen like Lazzara want too?:-)
@serenaluce Serena please ;) we are discussing about music!!! And we have already discussed about that before you talked with oceano! And the comment I have agreed with talks about Music :) so be kind :D
@MisterPapageno Friend please, here we discussed not only pure MUSIC but many other stuff like I've enumerated in my previous comment:)And all you posted is that you totally agree with oceano. That's why I asked you to verify what exactly you accept. Everything? Then it's really your man's solidarity to prefer contraltos in man's roles as many men admited to me that they drool over women hugging, touching each other boobies, kissing on stage pretending that one is aMAN and don't care about MUSIC
@serenaluce I totally agree with this "En gustos se rompen géneros, pero esta aria, a mi opinión, sólo le va a una verdadera mezzosoprano o una contralto. Los contratenores la cantan bien, sólo uno que otro, pero incluso la señora Podles, Kasarova o Horne la cantan con una extensión vocal más amplia y con mayor habilidad: graves màs potentes que en esta interpretación y una facilidad para ir de nota a nota y con mayor energìa, por eso Rossini se las escribió a las mujeres con esas capacidades."
@serenaluce Anyway Serena, as I've already said, not accepting contraltos singing Tancredi is not understanding Rossini's aesthetics and Rossini's music: this is my personal opinion. Furthermore, I have listened on YouTube to Mr Gabor Birta singing Smeton in Donizetti's "Annna Bolena" (Smeton is a female contralto) - terrible! And again Ms Bernadette Manca di Nissa sang the parto of Smeton with Joan Sutherland in the 80s: wonderful! ;) respect of music and composers' idea!
@MisterPapageno Yes,I remember we exchanged OPINIONS that I prefer LOGIC even in opera and all you care is somewhat Rossini's aesthetics due only to the WEIRD FASHION of that time when they still thought that MANLY men could sing in HIGH voices but to forget about castrati used WOMEN!Then if there's no SPECIAL magic in high MALE voices why Rossini didn't give WARRIORS' role to TENORS and BARITONES and made this MASCERADE with lesbian shows?Isn't it PERVERSION which can be fixed now by MANLY CTs?
@serenaluce Then you say that all tastes are fine: I agree! But A music piece is also history of music and saying that Rossini's use of contraltos is illogic and that Rossini's use is a wierd fashion, again I say that you don't understand Rossini historically and musically! And then, in Tancredi Rossini gave the part of king Argirio to a tenor, who sings also very high notes (and Matteuzzi in his rendition sings very very high notes).
[2] The matter is that Tancredi is a trascendant hero and heros were sang by castrati and by females later. This is something you can agree or not personally, as you do; but musically there's nothing to say ;)
I have learned many female pieces during my singing training, but I would never sing in public one of them becase they were written for female voices! The composer knew very well what he wanted and this respect of music is lacking, generetaing the degeneration of singing.
@MisterPapageno We just have different APPROACHES to music. If you only stick to the score what Rossini wrote, listen to your contraltos and be happy! But if a woman is only an APPROXIMATION of a MAN which is not that weird to you, CT is a REAL MAN and treats music with great respect and also expresses a composer's intention to potray a MAN in a similar range! What's so shameful for a MANLY CT to be dressed as a MAN and sing a MAN'S aria? And for women it's NOT shameful to sing man's stuff?!
@MisterPapageno Also, we already agreed that all tastes are legitimate and if you want your female contraltos and mezzo in transvestite shows why did you come again to a CT's video? And namely, Nicholas Spanos's who looks and sings very MANLY no matter how high? It's a DIFFERENT colour of the voice and if very good contralto di Nissa sings LOWER she is still NO MANLIER than a TRUE COUNTERTENOR! I could understand if you came to PJ's video and asked for respect of any MUSIC and composer's ideaLOL
@serenaluce Of course I do not agree on the manlier: to me Podles and Manca di Nissa are far manlier than countertenors, but this i my sensibility ;) I returned here because I wanted to read the new discussion, nothing else :)
@MisterPapageno You are a hopeless romantic if think that in opera ONLY music matters, and there are no other reasons why some singers receive roles and some not. Let me remind you again that at time of castrati not only MUSIC decided but e.g. such prosaic matter as finances why women sang castrati roles as they were much CHEAPER.Is it only MUSIC that you discuss and want not to notice anything else? If you talk HISTORICALLY, let's forget eg. ALL castrati stuff as there are no castrati anymore.
@MisterPapageno No castrati, then NOBODY can sing their roles with the same quality of sound from the MUSICAL point of view, and NO PROBLEM! Let's not listen to baroque, etc. as such voices don't exist anymore! If YOU are ashamed of singing female pieces in public, then DON'T sing them! But there's a big difference BW singing a TRUE female aria like O mio babbino caro by CTs which sounds weird and a MAN's one for some historical reasons written for women! There's no such thing as MANLIER WOMAN!
@MisterPapageno There were e.g. Amazons - strong, military women who could fight with men and even beat them in the battle, but they were still strong WOMEN with boobies and vaginas and all WOMEN's bodies and didn't grow penises even if physically they could beat MEN! Again, you are NOT Rossini and don't know exactly why he created this PERVERSION, but FASHION can be WEIRD, but some day also can CHANGE! Perhaps he was just grateful to women for not being castrated himself and gave them roles:-)
As I already have said, Mr Spanos sings enough correctly and I appreciate his very present low and medium register, but his high register is countertenorly harsh and squeaky. Otherwise, I do not find fair to sing Rossini's Tancredi because the part is for a female contralto and not for a countertenor: the richness of Ewa Podles' or Bernadette Manca di Nissa's contralto voices give a completely different image of Tancredi!
[2] I am sorry, but I didn't appreciate this repertoire choice, and I am always critical with countertenors who undertake such roles, like Gabor Birta who sang Smeton from Anna Bolena: the are not philologically correct (for instance, Mr Birta had the kindness to block me just to say a remark like this: I hope you woldn't!).
@MisterPapageno Oh don't worry, on this channel people are not blocked just for exchanging their different opinions:-) It's the purpose of YT, isn't it?:-) Only for personal insults people should be blocked and not for expressing what they don't like in a particular version:-). You can not like Spanos's high notes here but I thinks it's mainly because of a not very good recording and if you hear him live all his 3 registers are even, and his high notes are breath-taking! But you forget that...
@MisterPapageno ... that Tancredi is a MAN, and it's only LOGICAL that a MAN sings a MAN! I find it a PERVERSION that a somewhat female contralto or mezzo is still considered to be more suitable to present a MAN than a MAN himself! "Manlier"?! You find it weird when a man sings a WOMAN's aria and you don't think that on the contrary it's WEIRD too. Why are people so rigid and don't take LOGIC into consideration?! Yes, Rossini wrote this role for a WOMAN but this weird fashion should already END!
@MisterPapageno Why Rossini gave such roles to women? Because at that time they wanted to forget about CASTRATI and that buchery, what they did with MEN. And they didn't have CTs then with such developed, advanced technique who sound MANLY that we have nowadays. FALSETTISTS couldn't compete with castrati and didn't sound MANLY just using falsetto to produce sweet sounds like PJ now who is no CT. So, it was progressive to give such roles to women at that time. Remember that Rossini himself was...
@MisterPapageno ...intended to be CASTRATED. He was lucky to escape such a destiny. And so, at that time it made some SENSE to use WOMEN instead of castrati to forget about them as women very SUPERFICIALLY could sound like men but were CHEAPER substute for castrati! Of course, no matter how great e.g. Podles is, she as WOMAN can't express the IMAGE of Tancredi as a MAN and it's a completely different image of a DISGUIDSED WOMAN pretending that she is a MAN. Now CTs should sing MEN's roles!
@serenaluce Well, I do not agree of course with you :) As I said, countertenors should only sing countertenors part (so seeing the English and French repertoire) in my opinion because there is a more profound matter than just say "Tancredi is a man, so he has to be sung by man": I logically agree with your issue but I culturally disagree with it, because Rossini used the contralto voice not only to supply the castrati loss, but to highlitght 1) young males and 2) heroes, for instance Tancredi
Furthermore, logically speaking, in this video I hear a man singing with a woman voice: this doesn't really match with Rossini aesthetics, but wih the much more Baroque taste of surprise :) this is my opinion of course :)
@MisterPapageno And my last point: though your teacher is a CT I think that you just don't appreciate CT voice and prefer women all the time. No, I'm not against women being one of them myself:-), but how can you with your supposedly musical ear can say that Spanos is singing with a WOMAN voice?! Is it only because he sinngs so HIGH and BEAUTIFUL?! And women with low ugly voices have a MAN voice?! Oh My God! Can't you hear that Spanos has a very MASCUNILE, MANLY voice and special MAGIC...
@serenaluce Well in fact saying that " Spanos is singing with a WOMAN voice" is the resume of your idea of "how can a male role be sung by a woman?" . they are very dangerous semplification,
By the way, I do not think neither of us has changed his mind, but by the way, it's a nice exchange of ideas, though very different :)
@MisterPapageno I didn't understand at all YOUR statement "Spanos is singing with a WOMAN voice" as the resume of MY OWN idea of "how can a male role be sung by a woman"?! onn the contrary say that Spanos has a very MASCULINE, MANLY voice and many other TRUE CTS too like Daniels, Cencic, Kowalski, Mynenko singing this aria much better and in the image of a MAN and with all the nuances which no women can express as their throat are made in a different way! Sure, it's only exchange of OPINIONS:-)
@serenaluce I personally prefer (true and rare) contralto voice than countertenors in the en travesti roles :) I'll be old fashioned, but I find more male resonances in Podles than in Cencic aahah :)
@MisterPapageno It's your right to prefer female contraltoes in "transvetite shows":-). All tastes are legitimate. But there are people who want changes and want at least some LOGIC even in opera!:-) You know, in real life some men can sound very low and manlier, some have a more effeminate voice and look more sophisticated but they are still MEN, not women, and not only mechanics with dirty hands all the time are true men! LOL Cencic has a HIGHER voice but he is still MANLIER than Podles!:-)
@MisterPapageno Oh please, I'm talking about TRUE COUNTERTENORS and some of them can have more effeminate voices than I think the manliest of all CTs Nicholas Spanos with a very MASCULINE voice and not about just FALSETTISTS! Philippe Jaroussky is NO CT. He has nothing MANLY in him! He sings without balls, only pretending that he is a woman, an "angel" or a teenager to entertain people with his sweet sounds!It's SEXLESS! Pure pop even if it's presented as classical art! Cencic is a TRUE ARTIST!
@MisterPapageno Yeah, I have received it and will l listen to it now if you give me some time to do it. Otherwise I'm only replying to your comments:-). Thank you:-).
@MisterPapageno Di Nissa is very good indeed. A true contralto like Podles, Mingardo, Marga Hoeffner, Maryana Lipovsek. Sounds very natural and doesn't force her low notes. Thanks for sharing. But still she sounds as a WOMAN with beautiful low voice and she is NO manlier than CTs. It's just a different COLOUR and QUALITY of the sound!It's a very shallow opinion that if it sounds higher it's FEMININE and if lower it's MALE and MANLIER than a MASCULINE man with a HIGHER voice! Still NS is MANLIER
@MisterPapageno ...which can be found only in high MALE voices and no women have it as they have a DIFFERENT body and different QUALITY of SOUND! In a man's clothes a woman is still a WOMAN as she SOUNDS as a woman! In real life if women or men don't pretend and play TRICKS sound DIFFERENT and we can HEAR it if we are not deaf. Any opera is first of all about BEAUTY and not only baroque! It doesn't mean that only wild women with ugly voices can express Rossini's AESTHETICS and young MALES too.
@MisterPapageno Sorry, I respect your opinion, of course, but you condtradict yourself: if logically you agree with me how can you CULTURALLY disagree and think that to highlight YOUNG MALES and HEROES, like TANCREDI women are MORE appropriate for this role?! For you an OLD though great Ewa Podles is more YOUNG MALE than a YOUNG MAN?! Excuse my vivid naturalistic discription but women can't even musically HIGHLIGHT males as they have BOOBIES and VAGINA, and men PENIS and ADAM'S APPLE!
@MisterPapageno Well, you know, I'm not an opera singer, just a passionate fan, but I never come ON STAGE and never sing anything even with my make-up on! But I have make-up all the time in real life! LOL Still it's not about make-up but voices. I presume that you are a man:-). And if you want to play weird games with somebody and put make up on and can even cheat many people that you are a WOMAN as usually if a man pretends that he is a woman it sounds more convincing than when woman does it:)
@MisterPapageno ... you are still not a TRUE woman!:-) In real life it's a FRAUD! On stage for me it's a WEIRD comedy, weird fashion of the past where I can only laugh but I'm not supposed to laugh, and I think that opera needs a new reform now! It's time to move on and not just cling to weird FASHIONS of the past! Mankind have made many stupid and weird things and not only in opera!...I have wonderful Garanca singing this aria on my CD. It's beautiful but so FEMININE that I just LAUGHED at it!
@MisterPapageno Yeah, it's opera but it's become so weird because of such "transvestite shows" where women pretend that they are MEN that very few people now can enjoy it and prefer to stay away from it! LOL So, you think that Garanca is closer to Rossini's aesthetics and can express better a MALE HERO, the image of TANREDI?! LOL You can enjoy low resonance of Podles but only separately from the image of a MAN. Mingardo is a true, good contralto, but she is no ANDRONICO even with make-up! LOL
@serenaluce First Garanca is a soprano :P so I do not appreciate her Tancredi because it seems a child, not even a teenager :P I love Podles, Mingardo and I do advise to hear Bernadette Manca di Nissa, who is a wonderful natural contralto from the same city of mine :)
@MisterPapageno Garanca isn't a soprano but a mezzo! And she is a very good mezzo like e.g. Basso and Baka who sound beautiful and natural, very feminine without forcing low ugly notes and making ugly grimaces to pretend that they are ugly men!:-). I haven't heard Di Nissa yet but still no woman can convince me that SHE is a better TANCREDI only because Rossini gave this role to a woman according to the weird fashion of that time! We live in the 21 century now with WONDERFUL MANLY COUNTERTENORS!
@serenaluce Totally disagree; for me Garanca is a short soprano, like Joyce di Donato and Vivica Genaux. As you state, I am much more fond on the composer voice choice than on the interpretation of the directors or singers: if Rossini wanted a contralto to sing Tancredi, that has no contradiction :)
@MisterPapageno Oh no. Garanca is a true MEZZO like di Donato. I wouldn't even compare her with Genaux , a cheap imitator of Bartoli with her ugly singing and manners. In this connection I can also mention Barcelona with her ugly singing too....I think that you are just a rigid traditionalist:) who wants to hear only female contralto in this role because Rossini wrote like that and not because Spanos sings it worse or not manly enough and it's not for COUNTERTENORS.I have a DIFFERENT APPROACH.
@MisterPapageno Amen!:-) We really can't convince each other to change our opinions but all people are different and they want to see and hear different stuff. If you prefer female contraltos in such roles you can easily have them as they are traditional voices. But it's very difficult to hear a true CT at all, and many people even don't know that such voices exist. I and people like me have a right too to listen to CTs in men's roles. If there's demand there should be OFFER too, and CHOICE!
@MisterPapageno I've never seen MALE HEROES played by women in movies if it's not a classical comedy from Shakerspeare and Goldsmith's time where women could dress as men and modify their voices to sound lower and supposedly nobody could detect it but the reader! Or in classical fairy-tales when a woman just cuts her hair puts on armours and goes to war, and again nobody sees it! LOL Why you think that a woman with a deformed face and forced ugly low notes like Bartoli, Kazarova, Prina,Genaux...
@serenaluce I admitt that women playing male roles is a hot matter between musicologist and historians. I personally am fond of the Baroque and Rossini aesthetics, so it's just a matter of cultural line :)
But I have to agree with you about Bartoli, Kazarova, Prina,Genaux: they are cheaters because they are not contraltos but altos, so their renditions are really awful. Again, if you here a true contralto, like Podles or Manca di Nissa you have true low resonances which are fascinating at all!
@MisterPapageno ... I guess trying to express that a man is just a ugly, wild force and nothing more and to potray such a "creature" one can only make wild monkey grimaces and sing as LOW as possible and some people even call it "manlier" is more convincing MUSICALLY and CULTURALLY than when true men with HIGH BEAUTIFUL voices and nice manners sing it without any FORCED notes than when such WOMEN perform it?! What is Rossini's aesthetics?! Fashion is fashion: if at that time it was FASHION....
@MisterPapageno ...to give such roles to women, why should Rossini have been different?! They only tried to replace CASTRATI who were more suitable for the roles of HEROES! If nowadays men wear different clothes you can't dress as an ancient hero and walk like that on the street or come to work even if you dislike something in present fashion either! LOL But actually, I heard how BEAUTIFUL and ENCHANTING Rossini can be only after I discovered for myself COUNTERTENORS, and not women singing him!
Spanos has a very beautiful voice but my preferences for this aria are the performances by Horne and Podles because I like the deep timbre of their voices a lot. Sung by a countertenor my favorite is Daniels. IMO he is more dramatic in voice and expression but I guess you have to hear Spanos live. It is a pity they had not the equipment to record this professionally.
Maybe the heart should rule the head instead of the other way round? Surely music is about enjoyment and not disection unless you cannot just enjoy it for what it is.
@seempels I couldn't agree more with you. I just feel sorry for such voice teachers and singers themselves as CountertenorJ. Too much theoretical knowledge, ability to quote any book on singing technique at any page, writing "thrillers" how it SHOULD sound, etc., but his heart is already emotionally dead at his so young age! So sad, actually...
I think an open mind is the thing and I still have one. Maybe too much training is a bad thing...it stunts one's natural emotions. Analysis can sometimes ruin the experience as a whole.
@seempels Exactly, I'm happy that I can just LISTEN as an amateur, without any score before my eyes and professional knowledge as a voice teacher how AVERAGE STUDENTS are supposed to stand and what head and hand movements better to have to sell them for the market. I just allow my heart to FEEL! If it's appealing to me I begin to feel the same way the artist tries to present the IMAGE! Spanos always cares about the IMAGE and TEXT! I take it as a whole! He is a GREAT ARTIST WITH UNIQUE MANNERS!
You are a very clued up amateur. I do think if you sing from the heart, too much training on how to stand and what to do ruins the spontaneity. I think Nicholas Plavos does not need to change. Some videos are better than others but the voice remains magnificent and that is what matters.
@seempels Absolutely. I wonder how voice teachers can teach their students about every movement on stage? Every singer is supposed to be an INDIVIDUALITY and bring something PERSONAL into his or her performance. If a teacher constantly bugs the student what to do and what not to do it really ruins spontaneity. And who actually such a teacher wants to form - his own clone as it's what this particulare teacher thinks and the other people can think differently. Just one correcion Nicholas Spanos:)
@serenaluce It's not just about correcting every moment. Just about those that aren't necessary. And I am much, much nicer about mentioning it than many of the stage directors I have worked under. Many will literally tell you what to do, in what measure and on what beat. The world of recitals, to me, is in enjoying the stillness of music without as much of the stagecraft.
The best interpretation. Bravo.
tamerlano236 1 month ago
Nicholas interprets this bitter return to the homeland in a very expressive way. At first I found the eye movements distracting in the recitative, but I now see they are his way of underlining the text and gazing as he sings. The sound is wonderful.
fourmy1060 4 months ago
It sounds better than David Daniels' interpretation to my hears. But maybe with a lack of power with the full orchestra...
Well done !
TheEdae222 5 months ago
Comment removed
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
Well, obviously this is my opinion, only mine, my dear Serena :)
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
... the rest of so-called "countertenors" are nothing but guys like the one you wanted me to watch on that funny video: terrible staccato, legato, fiato, coloratura. They just shout and scream, no more than this. Of course, voice with disgusting unrefined sounds is far from making me feel interested in what they may be singing.
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
Oigo màs los aplausos que la voz..
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
En gustos se rompen géneros, pero esta aria, a mi opinión, sólo le va a una verdadera mezzosoprano o una contralto. Los contratenores la cantan bien, sólo uno que otro, pero incluso la señora Podles, Kasarova o Horne la cantan con una extensión vocal más amplia y con mayor habilidad: graves màs potentes que en esta interpretación y una facilidad para ir de nota a nota y con mayor energìa, por eso Rossini se las escribió a las mujeres con esas capacidades.
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Hi friend, nice to meet you here:-)We already agreed to disagree as tastes differ. You can prefer female singers for whom Rossini originally wrote this MAN's role according to that weird fashion, but FASHION eventially can change too giving way to LOGIC! But I'd also like to remind you your own comment to my point that this world is ruled by men and MEN enjoy "lesbian shows" when women hug and kiss each other and those in charge of opera productions prefer to give them such roles
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce Sorry, I know you admire this guy a lot. Actually I really enjoy a woman (mezzo or alto) who sings with a low vocal range, because she still sounds femenine, her tone and pitch are not totally manish, despite she hits a do6; she seems energetic, powerful and deserves my respect because she has that skill. A woman who sings with a high vocal range is so sweet and lovely. I thought women liked men with powerful and heavy voices, not men trainned to sing high notes like women.
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Dear friend, nothing to be sorry about. YT was created to allow people to exchange their opinions. We are having an interesting discussion here and it's all very civilized:-). Where else could we meet like that and express our considerations and preferences? Also, I think that mainly men express their opinion of this kind of singing and women don't say that openly as me what they like:-). Actually, women are different too, and can like different men:-)....
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce and maybe, the sound here on this video isn't of HQ. And actually an alto man can be distinguished from a woman even if she's a contralto. Some bad countertenors try to sound so femenine that they totally destroy the composition. perhaps i haven't heard many good countertenors and the ones i've heard are simply a fake, some shout like drag queens, because they don't have the voice to sing the aria they are singing.
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 You are right about FAKE COUNTERTENORS who can destroy the composition and sound like DRAG QUEENS. Actually, as I said before it's more a social matter now than a musical. People are still so ignorant and need education. Many still think that singing in falsetto is an indication of sexual orientation which is not. Any bass can be straight or gay but people only listen to his SINGING. So, if he can be gay, his BASS shows it? It's only takes GREAT ART to sing great in CT technique!
serenaluce 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 So, there's a big difference between REAL CTs and FAKE CTs, just men singing in falsetto classical stuff without balls, any paying attention to the image, just producing high notes in FLAT voices without any depth of interpretation and LOW notes at all to please the crowd with lovely sounds. Notice that it's a very demanding aria and only STRONG men can sing it. They need all our support and respect so that more MANLY MEN become CTs and sing such roles without DISCRIMINATION!
serenaluce 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 And whom people know most of all now and think that he is a COUNTERTENOR only because PROMOTION artificially made him "the best countertenor in the world"? Philippe Jaroussky, who is just a miserable PARODY on a CT. He is just a FALSETTIST, like historical falsettists who were different from castrati who sounded MANLY, had a wide chest and expressed HUMAN EMOTIONS. Falsettists on the contrary PRETENDED that they are WOMEN, ANGELS, TEENAGES,etc, which made them in reality SEXLESS!
serenaluce 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 So, of course, when people hear such a parody on castrati PJ and good female contraltos they think that women sound "manlier" as good female singers have full voice and not just HIGH register to sing in a pleasing manner like a servant. Try yourself to speak on only high notes and you'll understand that such people who do it can't be sincere and express all range of human emotions. So, PJ is a POP FALSETTIST and should only sing in pop shows like Klaus Nomi with his painted nails
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce I'm not saying countertenors' names because, there are good countertenors such as Andreas Scholl and some others
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Yes, I agree there are good countertenors who are strong men to sing such difficult vocal acrobatics with easy, and Andreas Scholl is one of them. PJ doesn't sing it and prefers something easier or almost unknown so that people can't compare him with TRUE artists, though he is so overpromoted now that became a TREND and people just applaud him as it's FASHION too. It's WEIRD when a supposedly MATURE man sounds FEMININE, but our task to tell REAL ARTISTS from FAKES, tell QUALITY!
serenaluce 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Tastes differ. I understand your point too. I'm only against your statement that you can hear better applauds than the voice. I listened to Spanos first on YT and made my own conclusion that he has a strong chest and very strong voice but I wanted to hear him live to be absolutely sure. In reality his voice sounds even better and stronger as no mike can catch all the nuances. You can come to his performance and make your own opinion, otherwise for now you have to believe me!:-)
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce Well, I wrote that Orfeo could possibly be a castrato, because for me it's the only way so that he enchanted both men and women. Actually, if I were the author of that story, i'd have decided such fact. But as you expressed it, it's just a stuff of voice preferences
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Interesting that we both think that Orfeo sang in a HIGH voice and not basso profondo as for me such low sounds can only come from hell!LOL Just my opinion as some people think that it's heavenly:-)So, you think that only a castrato-like voice could enchant both men and women? Not a baritone?:-)Well, there are some natural unbroken high male voice who could be considered natural castrati, so called endocrinological castrati, but there only only few of them in the world.
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce wELL, ACTUALLY I don't think low voices are from hell. that's something like saying that high voices are a product of rats or chipmunks in cartoons. So a baritone can be enjoyable in his interpretations. If I were an opera singer i'd like to be a baritone or a bass, even a tenor
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Come on, I only joked and said that it's my opinion about basso profondo. Please, don't say such offensive words about HIGH voices:-) Actually, at the time of baroque church used castrati with HIGH voices to attract people by sensual pleasures as NO OTHER voices could do it and sometimes basses to potray DEVIL, and not on the contrary. CASTRATO was the MAIN character for MANLY men and all the other voices were subbodinate to it. Women were only CHEAPER substitute to them...
serenaluce 7 months ago
Comment removed
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 We are living now at a wonderful time as thank God there are no castrati anymore and this butchery is only in the past but we still can hear wonderful HIGH voices thanks to CTs with advanced modern technique who have of course different vocal characteristics but still by TECHNIQUE are the closest substitute to castrati! Actually, if Rossini wanted to forget about CASTRATI but had only sexless falsettists why didn't he give this WARROR's role to a MAN, a TENOR or BARITONE?!...
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce Well, i once wrote Rossine wanted to keep castrati's voices in, let's say, natural ways, those ways were through women with wide vocal ranges (contraltos and mezzos), especially because they are more natural, countertenors most of the time have to use falsetto. This technique, of course, is not a bad source for singing, but that's way many countertenors do not have enough force to sing properly and powerfully when women can do that...
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 That's why I said before that only physically STRONG men can sing properly in countertenor technique, and there's a big difference between a REAL COUNTERTENOR who sings not only in falsetto, but also uses his chest voice and mix and just FALSETTISTS like Philippe Jaroussky, who can be anorexic and weak and only sing in FLAT voices in falsetto on HIGH NOTES without any depth who don't have enough breath control to express all range of HUMAN EMOTIONS ant pretend there're angels...
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce For sure I knew women can use falsetto to sing, but in anatomy and music studies, it has been proved that a woman singing a flat, sharp or natural Fa , for example, there's not much difference since women do use vocal chords fully, even in falsetto, but it doesn't happen when men do that, because their vocal chords are thicker and larger. Thus, countertenors only use the frotal part of vocal chords (lips) to produce high notes. This is the origin of powerful voices in women...
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 I understand that you are a straight man and like women too much:-). Good for you, and I don't care for this terminology, but falsetto is falsetto, and a woman singing in falsetto doesn't use her vocal cords fully. Even amateurs, you and me can make such an experiment. I'm a woman, so I tried:-) You are trying again to prove that women's vocal cords are better, but it's NOT, they are just DIFFERENT! How come then that some men sing in falsetto more POWERFULLY than some women?
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce All right, but falsetto is not the whole singing, there are more techniques that have to be used to show that an opera singer is an outstanding one. AGITA DA DUE VENTI IS AN EASY ARIA, but for a coloratura mezzo, like Ms Bartoli, but not for a ridiculous cheap DRAG QUEEN. Though the CHEAP CLOWN was really hilarious ;)
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Come on, I sent you Kimchillia Bartoli's PARODY not to insult him and call a DRAG QUEEN but exactly with an opposite purpose - to show that Ms Bartoli doesn't shine there at all, and it's not AN EASY ARIA for her.Please, what happened to your sense of HUMOUR?! It was presented as a PARODY and not TRUE BAROQUE.Why do you call him a CHEAP CLOWN? He is a COUNTERTENOR. Actually I don't like his MUCH vibrato in serious stuff but he MASTERFULLY showed Bartoli's CLUCKING HEN's technique
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce aLL RIGHT! Actually I caught on the humour on that video. That guy imitating Ms Bartoli's singing is far from being better than her. come on my friend! There are some intervals which he doesn't sing, he speaks. To my ears, the guy's singing is simply, how could I express this, not to effend him? Well he sings like a man trying to seem to a mezzo. This is unbelievable but not for a good reason! That's why I wrote that a countertenor dies singing a coloratura musical piece.
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 The Korean CT deliberately imitated a woman there, namely Bartoli's singing with her awful vibrato and UGLY forced low notes as if she were a man! And he sang this VERY DIFFICULT TECHNICALLY ARIA Agitata da due venti much more superior than her! Come on, a CHEAP CLOWN is PHILIPPE JAROUSSKY who is NOT manly at all, and makes CHEAP POP of classics pretending that he is a woman, "angel" or retarded teenager. E.g. singing Tamerlano as A CHEAP PARODY as a TEDDYBEAR and CHEATS!...
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce Well, I think this is an endless discussion, finally you like one sort of timbre and so it happens with me. For me a good voice -as I once wrote, makes me feel courage, intensity, happiness, sadness, love, etc., To do so, it MUST be a tenor, a baritone or a bass; a soprano, a mezzo and a contralto. Out of this classification, there isn't anything awesome (with the exception of very few countertenors, maybe 2 or 3)...
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 OK, I agree this is an endless discussion, and again nothing more than just exchanging OPINIONS. It's your opinion against mine, and you can't be righter than me. But you are painfully prejudiced against COUNTERTENORS which is sad. You wrote all this about BAD CTS. Bad singers there're in ANY voice category! A BAD bass or mezzo won't make you feel courage, intensity, etc...It's just strange that you write so many about BAD CTS on the video of objectively one of the BEST - SPANOS!
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce The only countertenor that really sings so proprerly, for me, is Andreas Scholl, he knows when to go higher and lower, and he does it so perfectly that he can be powerful and kind, you know he's got a voice range between mezzo and contralto. Jaroussky is also a good countertenor only for high sweet notes, and actually easy musical pieces. He, as a matter of fact, is not very clever to hit low notes, but it's great listening to that bright timbre...
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Friend, I don't want to quarrel with you:-). It's only YOUR own very prejudiced OPINION, and actually you don't know much of good countertenors and just can't appreciate them. Andreas Scholl is very good. It's all SUBJECTIVE who is the best ever. For me Scholl isn't THE ONLY as I respect him but his voice with all his right things is a bit too COLD for me. Spanos is much superior to him as he has HUGE RANGE and sounds WARM. PJ is NOT a COUNTERTENOR but POP FALSETTIST! Good bye!
serenaluce 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Actually, PJ is very SMART from the commercial, not ARTISTIC point of view. He only has an ability to produce HIGH SWEET notes singing in falsetto, that's IT. As I said before there's something special only in HIGH MALE voices. Well, some people, both women and men are just DRUGGED hearing ANY MALE singing in falsetto to rave on YT that life is worth living just because they heard this "artificial sweet poison". It's like narcotic for them. Not for ME! He has NO LOW NOTES at all!
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce I accept that there are great arias sung by a countertenor, i.e.: "Ombra mai fù", Andreas Scholl sings it so accurately and many other arias that Händel formerly wrote for Senesino, a contralto castrato. This countertenor also sings "Carmen" so unbelievable; "Lascia ch'io pianga" sung by P. Jaroussky and some other arias that are suitable for his voice.
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Actually, here I can't agree with you at all. My position has always been that men should sing men's roles, and women women's. That's why I prefer countertenors singing CASTRATI repertoire. But it's also phychological stuff. I prefer LOGIC! OK, in recreation of some baroque operas where women were not allowed on stage I accept that CTs sing women like in Sant'Alessio, but it's WEIRD too when they sing a WOMAN'S aria "Lascia ch'io pianga". Why Scholl sang this pop with Carmen?!
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce Well, i think it happens the same with women singing men's arias, but those countertenors actually do it properly, acceptably, showing their vocal gifts. Marco Lazzara seems to be a good countetenor, listen to "Di tanti palpiti" with him, perhaps you are going to like his performance, his vocal range is between that of Spanos, Scholl and Jaroussky. That countertenor rocks, he has very bright notes and then he goes to dramatic tenor. Listen to him and tell me what you think about him
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Dear friend are you serious about Marco Lazzara's Di tanti palpiti?Don't be offended but you have such a perversive taste in music! LOL You like all kinds of "transvestite shows" - if it's a lesbian show when a woman is dressed as a man sings pretending that she is a man,or on the contrary - when a man looks manly but when he sings this WARRIOR's aria he pretends that he is a WOMAN and sings with a WOMAN's coloratura! Give me a break.It's what I call A GRAG QUEEN! Read my comment
serenaluce 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Really, give me a break. If you prefer women sing this MAN's aria, listen to them and imagine that your girl friend is singing it to me. Don't worry, be happy!:-) Beauty is in the ear of the listener, and different people hear the same stuff in a different way. You are appalled that a CT makes a parody on Bartoli and call him cheap clown, speak about somewhat RANGE and can't hear that PJ has NO RANGE and you call him CT. After Lazzara I need to listen to MANLY SPANOS to feel OK!
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce Don't worry if you say I'm sort of perverted, because everybody somehow shows perversion. If not, why did castrati exist? Even you have a perversive taste affirming that the guy imitating Ms Bartoli on the video is cleverer than her... Everybody has a vocal range, even Jaroussky whose range is mainly that of a sopranist, not a soprano, because you know a soprano goes higher to an F#6 or more.
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Dear friend, I'm having such a fun with you on YT! LOL Actually, I'm less perversive than you saying that women should sing only WOMEN's roles and men only MEN's like this WARRIOR's aria! But if you think that I'm a pervert, I really don't care:-). Actually, it's YOU who wanted a CT to sing this WOMAN's aria "Agitata da due venti" and said that it's VERY EASY for a FEMALE MEZZO, and CTs can't sing it like Bartoli. I proved that actually CAN, but that CT singing it is a PARODY!
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce I totally agree with you! everybody has different ear tastes. I don't know if it depends upon the language we speak. So, if we listen to an "a" E3 (sound, not vowel) the beauty of the sound will be heard in distinct ways by a Spaniard or an English. Now, related to alto Marco Lazzara, his voice is the closest to how "di tanti palpiti" should be sung and actually he reminds me Ewa Podles and Marilyn Horne...
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Again, it's LIVE MUSIC, but you prefer to discuss THEORY giving me somewhat letters in different languages. Actually, I hated solfeggio in music school, and I'm happy now that I can listen to the MUSIC as an AMATEUR without thinking about those keys but am capable of being carried away to a better world by the BEAUTY of Spanos's very HIGH, ENCHANTING and very MANLY singing! If it's APPEALING to you, no matter what language you speak, the HUMAN VOICE is the UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE!
serenaluce 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Actually, I'm Russian with some Italian and some other bloods. So what? Music unites us all and is understandable to everybody if it's APPEALING. But there's no artist in the world who would be APPEALING TO EVERYBODY! Again, it's only your OPINION how this aria COULD be sung but you can't declare how it SHOULD be. You are a more PERVERT than me as you claim that you can't stand transvestite shows but prefer Lazzara who imitates WOMEN as you prefer LESBIAN SHOWS of men's roles!LOL
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce... and it also depends upon how we listen to the distinct sounds sequences. For me, in a musical piece like "Di tanti palpiti" and all the Baroque ones, have their beauty in the "exquisite" and clever performance of high-low notes, apart from acting and all the elements that make it interesting. Sincerely speaking, i don't really care if a man or a woman does it, how notes are produced is what really enchants me...
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@serenaluce... going back to Lazzara, the way he sings "Di tanti palpiti" is how I expect an alto man sings this aria: excellent, powerful and bright notes to refer to Amenaide to express love, satisfaction; and powerful, deep notes to express a complaint.
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Again, as I see it, you have a very perversive taste in music:-). Well, about castrati. It's a shame of the past. Church began to use them as people lost faith and wanted to lure them with SENSUAL PLEASURES as again there's SPECIAL MAGIC only in HIGH MALE VOICES. But I'm happy that now there are COUNTERTENORS who render HEAVENLY BEAUTY by TECHNIQUE! I expect from a MAN to sing it as a MAN, like Spanos with MANLY POWER,and not like Lazzara to IMITATE low WOMAN's, contralto singing
serenaluce 6 months ago
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@serenaluce Well, i don't want to say who is more reasonable than the other or who is more perverted than the other. It's just a point of view and our thoughts can't be changed "right away" and even farther, our ear tastes totally differ, perhaps by a psychological fact. That's why there's a lot of music variety and thanks for this. Some like countertenors, some like tenors and so forth...
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@serenaluce All voices are awesome according to their timbres and these can render beauty. But at the end of this "written conversation" I only can express that in fine arts (music, opera in this case) BEAUTY GOES BEYOND SEX and so it has been proved: women (mezzos and contraltos) going low and high with increadible ability to trasmit affection or courage. The same happens with men (some countertenors) who transmit calmess with their middle range voice.
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@serenaluce An excellent voice is always going to be an excellent voice. So a voice CAN'T EVER BE that of a hen cluking or something like that. On the other hand, a man's voice can't be compared with a woman's one, a contralto is a contralto and a countertenor is a countertenor. Sorry for some spelling mistakes. No one is better than the other, they are just different with more or less skills. it has been a pleasure to write with you. Cheerio! ;)
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Dear, it's been a pleasure for me to exchange opinions here with you too:-). Actually, it's not the end and we can meet on another video and continue our interesting discussions there too:-). Yes, beauty really goes BEYOND SEX. And I don't say that women's voices can't be beautiful and that I'm obsessed with only CT singing:-). But in other voice categories MEN are compared with MEN, and WOMEN with WOMEN. BEAUTY is subjective. I still prefer man's stuff to be sung by MEN!:-)Bye!
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce For sure I know that a contralto is a contralto, never a tenor. I have always referred to Ms Podles as a contralto, but if a woman is a contralto -a pure one, is because her vocal range goes from trebble to tenor, maybe a Do3-Mi6. Sorry if I don't write the notes in English, it's just that I'm not accustomed to using them. I never said that women are better than men, but you know that nature has given you that flexibility in vocal cords....
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Actually, I don't give a damn about all this termilogy in English or Spanish. It's not a THEORY of music, and not MEDICINE or ANATOMY to go deep inside singer's throats and examine flexibility and the LENGTH of their vocal cords. It's LIVE MUSIC! All I care is the BEAUTY OF THE SOUND and sharing SOUL according to the IMAGE! This is not a BATTLE where somewhat AMAZON WOMEN with more flexible cords beat men. You can also say that women WIN THE BATTLE as they have bigger boobies!LOL
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce You know, the smaller the vocal cords the more flexible they are. That's why they (women) win the battle. Now, according to what i watched on a music programme, head voice and falsetto in women is almost the same, for the device used to prove this idea displayed so, but it was totally different when a countertenor sang in natural voice and falsetto. With him, the device displayed that he only used the frontal part of his vocal cords, not so fully as the mezzo did.
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@serenaluce You know that castrati were astonishing middle men (with all the respect they deserve). But if their castration hadn't been feasible, what would come later? Dou you think Farinelli, Senesino, Bernachi, Caffarelli, Grimaldi, Ferri, Velluti would have had those angel voices if they hadn't been "torn out" part of their manhood?
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Again, I don't care how CTs do it, and with what part of their vocal cords or any other part of their body they produce such HEAVENLY BEAUTY, this special COLOUR and QUALITY which no women could replace. You analize too much. It's impossible to explain MAGIC. Just enjoy it! I know what castration is, all this and thank God it's in the PAST! Aren't you as a MAN happy that nobody's manhood is "torn out" anymore and TECHNIQUE is used to give us a glimpse of castrati's HEAVEN?!
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce men are strong, but in opera, when trying to "revive" castrati's arias, let's face it, countertenors can't simply win the battle. Some countertenors sometimes focus too much upon hitting high notes, that they forget the intensity or courage of the musical piece. Or they hit the high note, but lose strength in the other parts of the aria, giving the impression of a monotonous interpretation
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 I understand too that you want so much your girl friend to sing such arias for you dressed as a man and pretending she is a man. You already confessed that you like this kind of lesbian show, and you agreed with me too that this world is ruled by MEN. That's why those in charge of opera productions still prefer this weird fashion to give castrati roles to WOMEN and not to good CTs as they drool over women hugging and kissing each other on stage. That's how women "win" the battle!
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce I would say that mezzos, contraltos and some countertenors are the only ones that can sing castrati's arias, but rewritten for their vocal range. But let's face it, no countertenor can beat a mezzo or contralto throughout the voice acrobatics. A countertenor simply dies when singing "qual guerriero in campo armato" or "Agitata da due venti" or some other arias that only coloratura mezzos have mastered. Countertenors sing VERY EASY compositions, for their voice
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Again it's only exchange of OPINIONS on YT, and you can't be righter than me. Again I'm telling you that singing is SEXUAL STUFF, and you can prefer women in men's roles not because they are really BETTER, but as you are a MAN and turned on by low sensual sirens-like singing from which sailors at open sea went mad. And it's now your male logic against my female. CTs aren't supposed to BEAT women! I hope they are gentlemen! LOL Also Agitata is a woman's aria.BS about "VERY EASY"..
serenaluce 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Also, it's only your opinion that a CT "dies" in Agitata da due venti. And only coloratura mezzos have mastered it. Do you mean that "castrated castrato" Cecilia Bartoli who "castrated" castrati repertoir of their beauty, and with "innocent" eyes says nonsense on YT about her cheap commercial crap album "Sacrificium" that she can put a man's voice in a woman's body and can show how castrati could sound? I'll send you link with a CT parody on Bartoli Kimchilia Bartoli.It's GREATER
serenaluce 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 There a Korean COUNTERTENOR masterfully renders Bartoli's clucking hen's technique in "Agitata da due venti" which I presume you find superior to CT's and shows a great display of all expressive means, and it sounds much BETTER! It can be found on my channel in my favourites. Also, unlike you I prefer LOGIC in opera and BEAUTY of singing, so in general I'm against CTs singing women's arias, but Manzotti sings Agitata much more beautiful and impressive than Bartoli...
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce Ragin is an amazing alto man, but he is not very skillful in high notes and he loses strength in coloratura so he sings a little slow. You know the soprano had to sing the extremely high notes. In "Venti turbini" David Daniels doesn't have the ability and force to hit the Mi note that the master Podles hits. And what about the ending? Podles' real tenor voice at the ending is really breathtaking!
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Also, we again come to the same point that Rossini gave this MANLY CHARACTER's role not according to LOGIC to a man, e.g. tenor to forget about castrati but only because of WEIRD FASHION of that time to a woman. You prefer women as you are a MAN, and try to degrade CTs finding any kinds of flaws in them, I prefer LOGIC and BEAUTY. Listen to your women, but CTs can sing such roles now. All tastes are legitimate. There's no such thing as a woman's TENOR. Podles is CONTRALTO!
serenaluce 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 And the last point: you can not like Ragin, and his technique isn't so great and refined in comparison with Spanos's, but soprano Ewa Malas-Godlewska sang high notes and he middle and low only for the film Farinelli, il Castrato. It was a different task to show approximately how a CASTRATO voice could sound. And not that Ragin himself can't sing high notes. It's very controversial as it's a computer created voice. I think that his NATURAL voice is much BETTER than SPOILT by her.
serenaluce 6 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 That's why I say again that it's more a SOCIAL problem and confusion with hystorical FALSETTISTS than musical when now we have more and more real countertenors how sing MANLY with ADVANCED TECHNIQUE, all 3 well-developed registers, deep LOW NOTES but they are discriminated and compared with women as just falsettists whose purpose was exactly opposite to castrati - to show their sexual ambiguity.If STRONG men were not discriminated and supported there would be MORE countertenors!
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce ... for example, Cecilia Bartoli is the only mezzo that has sung "Son qual nave" almost perfectly. There isn't any countertenor that has sung that terribly difficult aria the same way she does. or what about "Venti turbini" Podles really "rocks" in that aria. Why do I write this, because those arias were written for castrati, but after them, women were the only ones that really mastered them.
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Concerning Cecilia Bartoli we have absolutely different tastes here and we'll never agree:-) I can't stand her clucking hen's technique and ugly visceral special effects only to stir listener's guts. She can't be perfect as she is a "castrated castrato" as she castrated them of BEAUTY of singing. Ragin in Farinelli il Castrato sings it much BETTER. Also Venti turbini ... The most beautiful version I've heard so far is Daniels's with his strong enough voice.Women didn't master it.
serenaluce 7 months ago
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oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@serenaluce most countertenors have excellent low notes, but at the moment of singing a high one, in difficult arias they really "suffer" or make their voice suffer since their ability and anatomy doesn't allow them to sing high notes the way a woman does. And surely, if i listen to a man performing a warrior's role, for me it should be a tenor, a baritone or a bass who sings it....
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Come on, you again speak from the man's point of view and just prefer women's singing as it's sexual stuff and many men just prefer to see women in men's roles hugging and kissing each other. Men's anatomy allows men to be stronger in general than women. It's strange to hear it from a man. And singing is no exception. A men's throat is just different from a woman's and allows to produce more nuaces. Actually women can sing in falsetto too to produce HIGH notes. Didn't know it?
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce IF we talk about ancient times, as part of history, a contralto or a mezzo should sing those warriors roles. A good countertenor can also do it, but it depends upon his vocal range and ability, he should not try to sing arias that his voice can't "support". otherwise we immediately notice that he is singing like a drag queen.
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Well, I wouldn't talk about "ancient times" but only several centuries ago about the time called baroque age and castrati singing. The main character again was not a countertenor and not a falsettist as they had CASTRATI, mighty singing machines, didn't care about human cost and didn't pay much attention to TECHNIQUE to produce high sounds. Women were just CHEAPER SUBSTITUTE to CASTRATI! REAL CTS are the closest one! Only falsettists like PJ or Klaus Nomi sing like a DRAG QUEEN!
serenaluce 7 months ago
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@serenaluce A man with natural voice (tenor, baritone or bass) is not able to sing such arias because simply his tone and pitch doesn't have the ability and range to hit extremely high notes requiered for those compositions. Remember that the above mentioned masculine voices were born recently, for they were formerly castrati. But thanks God nowadays exist tenors, baritones and basses and now we can enjoy these true men in warriors' roles.
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Don't you think that if lower MALE voices are also as good as high male voices it would be only LOGICAL to see a strong MALE character in armours sung by a MANLY MAN but in only a lower voice?! Actually, a good bass is much better than a bad CT! But here again we come to our initial point that there's SPECIAL MAGIC only in HIGH MALE voices and nowhere else who sound very MANLY if don't fake a woman. But only because of that time WEIRD FASHION Rossini gave it to a woman. Why else?
serenaluce 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 So, Orfeo could really be one of them and sang in his natural unbroken voice. But he could be a countertenor too and manipulate his voice. Muth says that he was also a poet and played on his lyre. He could also play on his vocal cords too to produce higher sounds:-). Singing in falsetto is more natural than to be a hormonal castrato as a boy's voice should normally break at puberty. Everybody can sing in falsetto, both men and women but not everybody does it very well!
serenaluce 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 You can enjoy women singing this role. It can really be powerful and sweet and lovely for you as a man but please listen to what I think from a woman's point of view:-). Some women really like only men who speak or sing in basses and have heavy voices, but many women with open-mind ENJOY countertenor singing very much. Very often they just don't confess it as usually MEN tell them that it's all weird, men should sound manly, insult them if they like it and tell them to shut up!
serenaluce 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 I judge from my own experience.But like in real life not all men are simple, speak in basses and have their hands dirty all the time dealing with cars which many men and women take for being TRUE MEN, very MANLY:-) some can be very intelligent and sophisticated! Actually as a woman I like such men:-). But we are talking OPERA now. I disagree with you that CTs are trained to sing high notes LIKE WOMEN! True CTs, not just falsettists look and sing very MANLY too no matter how high
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce And as I once wrote, mezzos and contraltos not always sing men's arias or compositions. Their acting in those roles is due to history: quio prior est tempore, potior est jure. Thus women, after castrati, were given the task to sing men's roles with low-high notes.
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 "...As i'm a man, i'd rather listen to the soprano's version, more than the countertenor's one. Because i imagine my girlfriend's singing me that, hahaha!" And actually, you are not the first man who says it from my own experience. I'd also like to stress my point that the reason for it can not be only MUSICAL, but also social and a MEN'S preference against WOMEN'S! I'm married but also could imagine my boyfriend sing to me this MAN'S aria, and I don't want any lesbian show:-).
serenaluce 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 My point is that there's SPECIAL MAGIC only in high male voices and no women have it no matter how great they are as they have a DIFFERENT body, different resonance and different COLOUR and QUALITY of the voice! Also, no matter how wondefully technically and emotionally they sing they can't sound MANLIER if they sing LOWER than men singing HIGHER! It's just the wrong superficial IMPRESSION. But men can just find female singing more appealing to THEM as singing is sexual stuff.
serenaluce 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Remember how sensual sounded sirens' low, deep, visceral singing to hungry sailors who were in the sea for a long time and just went mad from it? But the Greek myth says nothing if such singing made normal women crazy and in normal conditions! LOL But another Greek myth says that Orfeo with his heavenly singing enchanted BOTH men and women with BEAUTY! I'm sure that Orfeo sang in HIGH voice and wasn't basso profondo! LOL Also, Spanos's voice is VERY STRONG! Listen to it LIVE!
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce Spanos is incredible here. The voice is in excellent form, and he's acting out the role instead of just standing there like a lump as so many artists do in concert appearances. He's even acting during the orchestral introduction. this is one of his best. He sounds better than ever!
arpeggio1358 7 months ago
@arpeggio1358 Absolutely. I don't know why some people think that Spanos's voice isn't so strong jugding from this amateur unprocessed recording and confuse poor quality of recording with actual STRENGHT of the voice. But if they hear well applause they should also hear the voice. They are just prejudiced against CTs! I agree too that Podles and Horne are great but it doesn't mean that CTs sound WEAKER! Also, it's so nice to see ACTING in recitals! He also acted in Va tacito in recital in Athens
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce It's very difficult to compare mezzos and contraltos in trouser roles with CT's. They are two different things. Both have merit in these roles. I think so many of the men who don't like CT's are simply uncomfortable with the idea of a man who sings in the same vocal range as a woman. They need to get over this discomfort. The roles are those of men, no matter whether a mezzo, contralto, or CT sings them. They need to just enjoy the music no matter who sings it.
arpeggio1358 7 months ago
@arpeggio1358 It's really very difficult to compare female singers in trouser roles with CTs. They all have their merits. I'm for expanding musical horizons. Actually, people say that Rossini wrote this role for a woman, and it sounds like a SENTENCE. And nobody challenges why the hell great composer didn't write e.g. WARROR's role for a TENOR, why give it to a WOMAN to forget about castrati?Only because of that time weird FASHION! But if it's written for a HIGH voice COUNTERTENORS can sing it!
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce About Orfeo, as you wrote, it was just a myth. Actually we don't know how he sounded, maybe he sang like a castrato, so he didn't have a human voice. Or maybe he sang so manish, even with a voice out of this world. Remember that ancient Geeks lived in a macho world. For me he sang like a castrato, if he enchanted both men and women with a heavenly voice.
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 I think that if men sing in a CT technique sound like women to you, it's because YOU have an untrained ear yet, and not that they really sound like that as they have a different COLOUR and QUALITY OF SOUND PRODUCTION! Man's body is different, they have Adam's apple, and the resonance is different. Only if they deliberately want to sound like women they do it and can cheat somebody, but not everybody:-). I think that if you just listen to more real CTs you can hear the difference.
serenaluce 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 Well, myths are based on real facts. And in real life people heard real MAN's singing that impressed them so much that myth was born. Well, I don't think that Orfeo was a castrato as he was married to Euridice:-). I think that more likely he was a countertenor as it's all natural to sing in falsetto and has nothing to do with sexual orientation as many people mistakenly think. Of course, these are only my speculations:-). I think that we all still live in the macho world:-).
serenaluce 7 months ago
@serenaluce Mayme it's a psychological impression, but a mezzo or a contralto can be so sweet or energetic if she wishes. It just depends upon the ability to go from high to low notes. Some countertenors have this skill, but many of them are not really natural and they just shout.
oceanodefuego1 7 months ago
@oceanodefuego1 I totally agree :D
MisterPapageno 6 months ago
@MisterPapageno Thanks! :)
oceanodefuego1 6 months ago
@MisterPapageno You totally agree with what? That men prefer women in men's roles as they are so excited seeing women kissing and hugging each other on stage as a lesbian show and don't care about any logic?:-) You want your girldfriend to sing such stuff to you too dressed as a man like oceanodefuego's?;-) Men's solidarity? You don't care what women who have sensitive ears and who can tell a manly man's singing from a woman's and just falsettists like PJ or drag queen like Lazzara want too?:-)
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce Serena please ;) we are discussing about music!!! And we have already discussed about that before you talked with oceano! And the comment I have agreed with talks about Music :) so be kind :D
MisterPapageno 6 months ago
@MisterPapageno Friend please, here we discussed not only pure MUSIC but many other stuff like I've enumerated in my previous comment:)And all you posted is that you totally agree with oceano. That's why I asked you to verify what exactly you accept. Everything? Then it's really your man's solidarity to prefer contraltos in man's roles as many men admited to me that they drool over women hugging, touching each other boobies, kissing on stage pretending that one is aMAN and don't care about MUSIC
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce I won't comment on non-musical matters ... Furthermore, I am gay, so two girls hugging is nothing to me ;)
MisterPapageno 6 months ago
@serenaluce I totally agree with this "En gustos se rompen géneros, pero esta aria, a mi opinión, sólo le va a una verdadera mezzosoprano o una contralto. Los contratenores la cantan bien, sólo uno que otro, pero incluso la señora Podles, Kasarova o Horne la cantan con una extensión vocal más amplia y con mayor habilidad: graves màs potentes que en esta interpretación y una facilidad para ir de nota a nota y con mayor energìa, por eso Rossini se las escribió a las mujeres con esas capacidades."
MisterPapageno 6 months ago
@serenaluce Anyway Serena, as I've already said, not accepting contraltos singing Tancredi is not understanding Rossini's aesthetics and Rossini's music: this is my personal opinion. Furthermore, I have listened on YouTube to Mr Gabor Birta singing Smeton in Donizetti's "Annna Bolena" (Smeton is a female contralto) - terrible! And again Ms Bernadette Manca di Nissa sang the parto of Smeton with Joan Sutherland in the 80s: wonderful! ;) respect of music and composers' idea!
MisterPapageno 6 months ago
@MisterPapageno Yes,I remember we exchanged OPINIONS that I prefer LOGIC even in opera and all you care is somewhat Rossini's aesthetics due only to the WEIRD FASHION of that time when they still thought that MANLY men could sing in HIGH voices but to forget about castrati used WOMEN!Then if there's no SPECIAL magic in high MALE voices why Rossini didn't give WARRIORS' role to TENORS and BARITONES and made this MASCERADE with lesbian shows?Isn't it PERVERSION which can be fixed now by MANLY CTs?
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce Then you say that all tastes are fine: I agree! But A music piece is also history of music and saying that Rossini's use of contraltos is illogic and that Rossini's use is a wierd fashion, again I say that you don't understand Rossini historically and musically! And then, in Tancredi Rossini gave the part of king Argirio to a tenor, who sings also very high notes (and Matteuzzi in his rendition sings very very high notes).
MisterPapageno 6 months ago
[2] The matter is that Tancredi is a trascendant hero and heros were sang by castrati and by females later. This is something you can agree or not personally, as you do; but musically there's nothing to say ;)
I have learned many female pieces during my singing training, but I would never sing in public one of them becase they were written for female voices! The composer knew very well what he wanted and this respect of music is lacking, generetaing the degeneration of singing.
MisterPapageno 6 months ago
[3] Today anyone sings what he wants: this is not musically and technically possible! ;)
But again this is my very musical opinion of the thing! :D
MisterPapageno 6 months ago
@MisterPapageno We just have different APPROACHES to music. If you only stick to the score what Rossini wrote, listen to your contraltos and be happy! But if a woman is only an APPROXIMATION of a MAN which is not that weird to you, CT is a REAL MAN and treats music with great respect and also expresses a composer's intention to potray a MAN in a similar range! What's so shameful for a MANLY CT to be dressed as a MAN and sing a MAN'S aria? And for women it's NOT shameful to sing man's stuff?!
serenaluce 6 months ago
@MisterPapageno Also, we already agreed that all tastes are legitimate and if you want your female contraltos and mezzo in transvestite shows why did you come again to a CT's video? And namely, Nicholas Spanos's who looks and sings very MANLY no matter how high? It's a DIFFERENT colour of the voice and if very good contralto di Nissa sings LOWER she is still NO MANLIER than a TRUE COUNTERTENOR! I could understand if you came to PJ's video and asked for respect of any MUSIC and composer's ideaLOL
serenaluce 6 months ago
@serenaluce Of course I do not agree on the manlier: to me Podles and Manca di Nissa are far manlier than countertenors, but this i my sensibility ;) I returned here because I wanted to read the new discussion, nothing else :)
MisterPapageno 6 months ago
@MisterPapageno You are a hopeless romantic if think that in opera ONLY music matters, and there are no other reasons why some singers receive roles and some not. Let me remind you again that at time of castrati not only MUSIC decided but e.g. such prosaic matter as finances why women sang castrati roles as they were much CHEAPER.Is it only MUSIC that you discuss and want not to notice anything else? If you talk HISTORICALLY, let's forget eg. ALL castrati stuff as there are no castrati anymore.
serenaluce 6 months ago
@MisterPapageno No castrati, then NOBODY can sing their roles with the same quality of sound from the MUSICAL point of view, and NO PROBLEM! Let's not listen to baroque, etc. as such voices don't exist anymore! If YOU are ashamed of singing female pieces in public, then DON'T sing them! But there's a big difference BW singing a TRUE female aria like O mio babbino caro by CTs which sounds weird and a MAN's one for some historical reasons written for women! There's no such thing as MANLIER WOMAN!
serenaluce 6 months ago
@MisterPapageno There were e.g. Amazons - strong, military women who could fight with men and even beat them in the battle, but they were still strong WOMEN with boobies and vaginas and all WOMEN's bodies and didn't grow penises even if physically they could beat MEN! Again, you are NOT Rossini and don't know exactly why he created this PERVERSION, but FASHION can be WEIRD, but some day also can CHANGE! Perhaps he was just grateful to women for not being castrated himself and gave them roles:-)
serenaluce 6 months ago
As I already have said, Mr Spanos sings enough correctly and I appreciate his very present low and medium register, but his high register is countertenorly harsh and squeaky. Otherwise, I do not find fair to sing Rossini's Tancredi because the part is for a female contralto and not for a countertenor: the richness of Ewa Podles' or Bernadette Manca di Nissa's contralto voices give a completely different image of Tancredi!
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
[2] I am sorry, but I didn't appreciate this repertoire choice, and I am always critical with countertenors who undertake such roles, like Gabor Birta who sang Smeton from Anna Bolena: the are not philologically correct (for instance, Mr Birta had the kindness to block me just to say a remark like this: I hope you woldn't!).
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno Oh don't worry, on this channel people are not blocked just for exchanging their different opinions:-) It's the purpose of YT, isn't it?:-) Only for personal insults people should be blocked and not for expressing what they don't like in a particular version:-). You can not like Spanos's high notes here but I thinks it's mainly because of a not very good recording and if you hear him live all his 3 registers are even, and his high notes are breath-taking! But you forget that...
serenaluce 8 months ago
@serenaluce Besides, I haven't nothing against countertenors who remain in an appropriate repertoire: my singing teacer is a countertenor himself :D
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno ... that Tancredi is a MAN, and it's only LOGICAL that a MAN sings a MAN! I find it a PERVERSION that a somewhat female contralto or mezzo is still considered to be more suitable to present a MAN than a MAN himself! "Manlier"?! You find it weird when a man sings a WOMAN's aria and you don't think that on the contrary it's WEIRD too. Why are people so rigid and don't take LOGIC into consideration?! Yes, Rossini wrote this role for a WOMAN but this weird fashion should already END!
serenaluce 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno Why Rossini gave such roles to women? Because at that time they wanted to forget about CASTRATI and that buchery, what they did with MEN. And they didn't have CTs then with such developed, advanced technique who sound MANLY that we have nowadays. FALSETTISTS couldn't compete with castrati and didn't sound MANLY just using falsetto to produce sweet sounds like PJ now who is no CT. So, it was progressive to give such roles to women at that time. Remember that Rossini himself was...
serenaluce 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno ...intended to be CASTRATED. He was lucky to escape such a destiny. And so, at that time it made some SENSE to use WOMEN instead of castrati to forget about them as women very SUPERFICIALLY could sound like men but were CHEAPER substute for castrati! Of course, no matter how great e.g. Podles is, she as WOMAN can't express the IMAGE of Tancredi as a MAN and it's a completely different image of a DISGUIDSED WOMAN pretending that she is a MAN. Now CTs should sing MEN's roles!
serenaluce 8 months ago
@serenaluce Well, I do not agree of course with you :) As I said, countertenors should only sing countertenors part (so seeing the English and French repertoire) in my opinion because there is a more profound matter than just say "Tancredi is a man, so he has to be sung by man": I logically agree with your issue but I culturally disagree with it, because Rossini used the contralto voice not only to supply the castrati loss, but to highlitght 1) young males and 2) heroes, for instance Tancredi
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
Furthermore, logically speaking, in this video I hear a man singing with a woman voice: this doesn't really match with Rossini aesthetics, but wih the much more Baroque taste of surprise :) this is my opinion of course :)
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno And my last point: though your teacher is a CT I think that you just don't appreciate CT voice and prefer women all the time. No, I'm not against women being one of them myself:-), but how can you with your supposedly musical ear can say that Spanos is singing with a WOMAN voice?! Is it only because he sinngs so HIGH and BEAUTIFUL?! And women with low ugly voices have a MAN voice?! Oh My God! Can't you hear that Spanos has a very MASCUNILE, MANLY voice and special MAGIC...
serenaluce 8 months ago
@serenaluce Well in fact saying that " Spanos is singing with a WOMAN voice" is the resume of your idea of "how can a male role be sung by a woman?" . they are very dangerous semplification,
By the way, I do not think neither of us has changed his mind, but by the way, it's a nice exchange of ideas, though very different :)
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno I didn't understand at all YOUR statement "Spanos is singing with a WOMAN voice" as the resume of MY OWN idea of "how can a male role be sung by a woman"?! onn the contrary say that Spanos has a very MASCULINE, MANLY voice and many other TRUE CTS too like Daniels, Cencic, Kowalski, Mynenko singing this aria much better and in the image of a MAN and with all the nuances which no women can express as their throat are made in a different way! Sure, it's only exchange of OPINIONS:-)
serenaluce 8 months ago
@serenaluce I personally prefer (true and rare) contralto voice than countertenors in the en travesti roles :) I'll be old fashioned, but I find more male resonances in Podles than in Cencic aahah :)
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno It's your right to prefer female contraltoes in "transvetite shows":-). All tastes are legitimate. But there are people who want changes and want at least some LOGIC even in opera!:-) You know, in real life some men can sound very low and manlier, some have a more effeminate voice and look more sophisticated but they are still MEN, not women, and not only mechanics with dirty hands all the time are true men! LOL Cencic has a HIGHER voice but he is still MANLIER than Podles!:-)
serenaluce 8 months ago
@serenaluce Still have doubts on Cencic or Jaroussky voice "maleness" respect to Podles or even Horne ahaha :P
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno Oh please, I'm talking about TRUE COUNTERTENORS and some of them can have more effeminate voices than I think the manliest of all CTs Nicholas Spanos with a very MASCULINE voice and not about just FALSETTISTS! Philippe Jaroussky is NO CT. He has nothing MANLY in him! He sings without balls, only pretending that he is a woman, an "angel" or a teenager to entertain people with his sweet sounds!It's SEXLESS! Pure pop even if it's presented as classical art! Cencic is a TRUE ARTIST!
serenaluce 8 months ago
@serenaluce Ahah :) have you received the Manca di Nissa audios?
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno Yeah, I have received it and will l listen to it now if you give me some time to do it. Otherwise I'm only replying to your comments:-). Thank you:-).
serenaluce 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno Di Nissa is very good indeed. A true contralto like Podles, Mingardo, Marga Hoeffner, Maryana Lipovsek. Sounds very natural and doesn't force her low notes. Thanks for sharing. But still she sounds as a WOMAN with beautiful low voice and she is NO manlier than CTs. It's just a different COLOUR and QUALITY of the sound!It's a very shallow opinion that if it sounds higher it's FEMININE and if lower it's MALE and MANLIER than a MASCULINE man with a HIGHER voice! Still NS is MANLIER
serenaluce 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno ...which can be found only in high MALE voices and no women have it as they have a DIFFERENT body and different QUALITY of SOUND! In a man's clothes a woman is still a WOMAN as she SOUNDS as a woman! In real life if women or men don't pretend and play TRICKS sound DIFFERENT and we can HEAR it if we are not deaf. Any opera is first of all about BEAUTY and not only baroque! It doesn't mean that only wild women with ugly voices can express Rossini's AESTHETICS and young MALES too.
serenaluce 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno Sorry, I respect your opinion, of course, but you condtradict yourself: if logically you agree with me how can you CULTURALLY disagree and think that to highlight YOUNG MALES and HEROES, like TANCREDI women are MORE appropriate for this role?! For you an OLD though great Ewa Podles is more YOUNG MALE than a YOUNG MAN?! Excuse my vivid naturalistic discription but women can't even musically HIGHLIGHT males as they have BOOBIES and VAGINA, and men PENIS and ADAM'S APPLE!
serenaluce 8 months ago
@serenaluce ahah well, on stage you have the make-up ;)
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno Well, you know, I'm not an opera singer, just a passionate fan, but I never come ON STAGE and never sing anything even with my make-up on! But I have make-up all the time in real life! LOL Still it's not about make-up but voices. I presume that you are a man:-). And if you want to play weird games with somebody and put make up on and can even cheat many people that you are a WOMAN as usually if a man pretends that he is a woman it sounds more convincing than when woman does it:)
serenaluce 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno ... you are still not a TRUE woman!:-) In real life it's a FRAUD! On stage for me it's a WEIRD comedy, weird fashion of the past where I can only laugh but I'm not supposed to laugh, and I think that opera needs a new reform now! It's time to move on and not just cling to weird FASHIONS of the past! Mankind have made many stupid and weird things and not only in opera!...I have wonderful Garanca singing this aria on my CD. It's beautiful but so FEMININE that I just LAUGHED at it!
serenaluce 8 months ago
@serenaluce isn't it a fraud to sing 30 minutes while dying ? :P ahahah This is opera :D
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno Yeah, it's opera but it's become so weird because of such "transvestite shows" where women pretend that they are MEN that very few people now can enjoy it and prefer to stay away from it! LOL So, you think that Garanca is closer to Rossini's aesthetics and can express better a MALE HERO, the image of TANREDI?! LOL You can enjoy low resonance of Podles but only separately from the image of a MAN. Mingardo is a true, good contralto, but she is no ANDRONICO even with make-up! LOL
serenaluce 8 months ago
@serenaluce First Garanca is a soprano :P so I do not appreciate her Tancredi because it seems a child, not even a teenager :P I love Podles, Mingardo and I do advise to hear Bernadette Manca di Nissa, who is a wonderful natural contralto from the same city of mine :)
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno Garanca isn't a soprano but a mezzo! And she is a very good mezzo like e.g. Basso and Baka who sound beautiful and natural, very feminine without forcing low ugly notes and making ugly grimaces to pretend that they are ugly men!:-). I haven't heard Di Nissa yet but still no woman can convince me that SHE is a better TANCREDI only because Rossini gave this role to a woman according to the weird fashion of that time! We live in the 21 century now with WONDERFUL MANLY COUNTERTENORS!
serenaluce 8 months ago
@serenaluce Totally disagree; for me Garanca is a short soprano, like Joyce di Donato and Vivica Genaux. As you state, I am much more fond on the composer voice choice than on the interpretation of the directors or singers: if Rossini wanted a contralto to sing Tancredi, that has no contradiction :)
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno Oh no. Garanca is a true MEZZO like di Donato. I wouldn't even compare her with Genaux , a cheap imitator of Bartoli with her ugly singing and manners. In this connection I can also mention Barcelona with her ugly singing too....I think that you are just a rigid traditionalist:) who wants to hear only female contralto in this role because Rossini wrote like that and not because Spanos sings it worse or not manly enough and it's not for COUNTERTENORS.I have a DIFFERENT APPROACH.
serenaluce 8 months ago
@serenaluce Well, I am very faithful to what Rossini wrote: Rossini is Rossini, not Verismo.
Yes, we have different approaches indeed :)
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno Amen!:-) We really can't convince each other to change our opinions but all people are different and they want to see and hear different stuff. If you prefer female contraltos in such roles you can easily have them as they are traditional voices. But it's very difficult to hear a true CT at all, and many people even don't know that such voices exist. I and people like me have a right too to listen to CTs in men's roles. If there's demand there should be OFFER too, and CHOICE!
serenaluce 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno I've never seen MALE HEROES played by women in movies if it's not a classical comedy from Shakerspeare and Goldsmith's time where women could dress as men and modify their voices to sound lower and supposedly nobody could detect it but the reader! Or in classical fairy-tales when a woman just cuts her hair puts on armours and goes to war, and again nobody sees it! LOL Why you think that a woman with a deformed face and forced ugly low notes like Bartoli, Kazarova, Prina,Genaux...
serenaluce 8 months ago
@serenaluce I admitt that women playing male roles is a hot matter between musicologist and historians. I personally am fond of the Baroque and Rossini aesthetics, so it's just a matter of cultural line :)
But I have to agree with you about Bartoli, Kazarova, Prina,Genaux: they are cheaters because they are not contraltos but altos, so their renditions are really awful. Again, if you here a true contralto, like Podles or Manca di Nissa you have true low resonances which are fascinating at all!
MisterPapageno 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno ... I guess trying to express that a man is just a ugly, wild force and nothing more and to potray such a "creature" one can only make wild monkey grimaces and sing as LOW as possible and some people even call it "manlier" is more convincing MUSICALLY and CULTURALLY than when true men with HIGH BEAUTIFUL voices and nice manners sing it without any FORCED notes than when such WOMEN perform it?! What is Rossini's aesthetics?! Fashion is fashion: if at that time it was FASHION....
serenaluce 8 months ago
@MisterPapageno ...to give such roles to women, why should Rossini have been different?! They only tried to replace CASTRATI who were more suitable for the roles of HEROES! If nowadays men wear different clothes you can't dress as an ancient hero and walk like that on the street or come to work even if you dislike something in present fashion either! LOL But actually, I heard how BEAUTIFUL and ENCHANTING Rossini can be only after I discovered for myself COUNTERTENORS, and not women singing him!
serenaluce 8 months ago
Spanos has a very beautiful voice but my preferences for this aria are the performances by Horne and Podles because I like the deep timbre of their voices a lot. Sung by a countertenor my favorite is Daniels. IMO he is more dramatic in voice and expression but I guess you have to hear Spanos live. It is a pity they had not the equipment to record this professionally.
ungiornodiregno 1 year ago
Maybe the heart should rule the head instead of the other way round? Surely music is about enjoyment and not disection unless you cannot just enjoy it for what it is.
seempels 1 year ago
@seempels I couldn't agree more with you. I just feel sorry for such voice teachers and singers themselves as CountertenorJ. Too much theoretical knowledge, ability to quote any book on singing technique at any page, writing "thrillers" how it SHOULD sound, etc., but his heart is already emotionally dead at his so young age! So sad, actually...
serenaluce 1 year ago
@serenaluce
I think an open mind is the thing and I still have one. Maybe too much training is a bad thing...it stunts one's natural emotions. Analysis can sometimes ruin the experience as a whole.
seempels 1 year ago
@seempels Exactly, I'm happy that I can just LISTEN as an amateur, without any score before my eyes and professional knowledge as a voice teacher how AVERAGE STUDENTS are supposed to stand and what head and hand movements better to have to sell them for the market. I just allow my heart to FEEL! If it's appealing to me I begin to feel the same way the artist tries to present the IMAGE! Spanos always cares about the IMAGE and TEXT! I take it as a whole! He is a GREAT ARTIST WITH UNIQUE MANNERS!
serenaluce 1 year ago
@serenaluce
You are a very clued up amateur. I do think if you sing from the heart, too much training on how to stand and what to do ruins the spontaneity. I think Nicholas Plavos does not need to change. Some videos are better than others but the voice remains magnificent and that is what matters.
seempels 1 year ago
@seempels Absolutely. I wonder how voice teachers can teach their students about every movement on stage? Every singer is supposed to be an INDIVIDUALITY and bring something PERSONAL into his or her performance. If a teacher constantly bugs the student what to do and what not to do it really ruins spontaneity. And who actually such a teacher wants to form - his own clone as it's what this particulare teacher thinks and the other people can think differently. Just one correcion Nicholas Spanos:)
serenaluce 1 year ago
@serenaluce It's not just about correcting every moment. Just about those that aren't necessary. And I am much, much nicer about mentioning it than many of the stage directors I have worked under. Many will literally tell you what to do, in what measure and on what beat. The world of recitals, to me, is in enjoying the stillness of music without as much of the stagecraft.
CountertenorJ 1 year ago