GNU toolkit, Linux kernel

[Bitwzyze]

@Hax0rPr0n A microkernel would work on x64, but it would take a lot of work. I think it would be best to adopt a microkernel which already exists and have it enter 64-bit mode during boot.

[Bitwzyze]

@Hax0rPr0n You could probably make it work, but I'm not entirely sure. I work more on the peripheral buses myself.

[Bitwzyze]

@Hax0rPr0n I like monolithic kernels. They're more efficient. Linus himself prefers monolithic kernels. You can read the Tanembaum-Torvalds flame war, and listen to some speeches Linus gave.

He calls it "mental masturbation."

[Bitwzyze]

@Hax0rPr0n The system is _not at all_ similar to how Windows works. Windows has a hybrid kernel, while Linux uses a truly monolithic kernel. There's a massive difference.

As well, monolithic kernels are actually _better for_ security. Rootkits aren't going to strike your computer doesn't run many modules in user space, because adding kernel-level code is a privileged operation, the likes of which require authentication from the sysadmin.

[FearedBliss]

@Hax0rPr0n So compile a kernel with as much modules as possible. Problem solved. Don't forget your initramfs ;D

[arunkrishna88]

I am entirely new to GTK.Will Gtk for java work on windows?

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 Just read the Wikipedia article for "Operating System" very carefully, it specifically says that an operating system is both a kernel and all software that is necessary to run other software. Linux is the kernel, it can't run complex modern software (graphicals, physics). GNU is the software for running other software, it handles more complex tasks. (C and C++ program execution and compiling, partitioning (Linux only handles reading FileSystems), binary tools, managing windows, etc.)

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Oh cheese... Wikipedia what is so badly biased by 12 year old kids who does not even understand the OS technology. And Linux can not run graphical or physics software? LOL. You are totally out of the area of OS's. And GNU software manageing partitos, program execution and compiling and windowses? ROFL. Seems you have no idea what software GNU really have.

You are now on floor 55 trying to tell what is happening in OS Floor (the basement).

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 "Wikipedia what is so badly biased by 12 year old kids who does not even understand the OS technology." This is completely untrue. "You are totally out of the area of OS's." An OS is what lets me run my software, and Linux by itself cannot do this. "manageing partitos" GNU Parted, all major distros' default software uses it. Linux + blank drive=nothing. "program execution and compiling" GNU libc and GCC "windowses" Metacity is part of GNOME. Linux is just listening to GNU's orders.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Linux can not do it? Linux is exactly doing it. Linux is not a microkernel. No one use only the OS to anything. User needs programs to do their tasks. Linux executes all the commands, delivers all the hardware functions to all other software. Exactly what is the only purpose of the OS. If you proof that Linux is a microkernel (there is a MkLinux what Apple did to develope Next and XNU), then Linux is not a operating system.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 A micro-kernel is a monolithic kernel broken down into smaller pieces, that's all. A micro-kernel does every last task the same way a monolithic kernel does. A micro-kernel is just put together and runs in separate pieces -- called "servers" -- in userspace. MINIX: "to improve operating system reliability is to get rid of the model of the operating system as one gigantic program running in kernel mode, with every line of code capable of compromising or bringing down the system."

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Okay, tell me where are in Minix the filesystems, device Drivers, network protocols? The list goes on and none of those are in the microkernel. Microkernel is only a PART of the OS. Monolithic kernel is the WHOLE OS. The Monolithic Operating System is the Linux. Running alone in the kernel space and supervisor mode. Server-Client idea is to slice OS to pieces, small microkernel alone and other OS parts off from it, every one alone.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 In MINIX the drivers, firmware, protocols, etc., are all servers, running out of the kernel so if they crash the full system doesn't crash. A micro-kernel won't run without its servers. A micro-kernel is... what... a MICRO-KERNEL (small kernel) not a micro-operating system or it'd be called as such. A micro-kernel does exactly the same thing a monolithic kernel does. A micro-kernel is like Linux minus drivers, and the drivers weren't developed by the Linux developers.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Good, now you are starting to understand. I have never said that microkernel is micro-operating v . Microkernel is just part of the OS. It has only most critical parts of the OS. All other OS parts are separated as own processes and the whole OS runs in supervisor mode. Linux use original monolithic OS structure where whole OS is running in kernel space. What is by some people counted bad. And microkernel has only very small functios what monolithic OS does.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Hurd = (GNU Mach) Microkernel + servers (other parts of the HURD) = OS. Linux is a monolithic kernel == OS. If Linux would be a microkernel, then it would not be a operating system. Then you could switchi Linux to GNU Mach and get a Linux/Hurd(GNU) operating system. But Linux is the monolithic kernel == OS. And not a microkernel sliced to pieces by architecture.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 Linux being monolithic makes it that much easier to take out. You are stuck on the idea that the kernel is the operating system. It's not. Linux is a kernel, as one big blob. And Hurd/Mach is a kernel, as a bunch of servers doing their own little thing.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Monolithic kernel is the operating system. Microkernel is not. And HURD is not a microkernel but the operating system. Linux IS A MONOLITHIC KERNEL. NOT A MICROkernel. Linux includes everything what is needed from the software to be called as OS. You believe that kernel is always just a kernel and OS is kernel + something. No matter what is the OS architecure.

[TheFri13]

"On top of the operating system is the rest of the system software. Here we find the command interpreter (shell), compilers, editors and similar application independent programs. It is important to realize that these programs are definitely not part of the operating system, even though they are typically supplied by the computer manufacturer. This is crucial, but subtle, point. The operating system is that portion of the software that runs in kernel mode or supervisor mode." -Modern OS's

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 @TheFri13 Linux doesn't meet the definition because it doesn't run at all by itself, when other kernels do. But even functional kernels just start and then sit in an infinite loop doing nothing.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Linux has all what is needed from the OS. Fact is, no one does ANYTHING just with the OS. People NEEDS programs. Programs does their specific task behalf of the user. User needs a program what draws a specific UI for their needs. A program what allows them to write text. A program what allows them to compile the source code to binary code etc. You do not browse web with the OS but with web browser what is just a very high level program (depencies for other apps as well).

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Tell what you find out on this scientifical paper? you know tiny url site? place these as the shorter codes. mum9x , 3uaq48 and 324of8g

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 It works like this, the operating system says to the kernel "I DEMAND I be allowed to calculate this in the CPU!" and the kernel says "Okay..." or has a panic attack. "The MINIX 3 Architecture" from page 3 "MINIX is a free microkernel-based operating system". In a monolithic kernel (Linux), the operating system (GNU) runs in supervisor mode and the applications run in user mode. Other types of operating systems, like those with a microkernel do not necessarily share this behavior.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH OS does not order anything, the program asks from the OS the time. The OS controls the hardware, iut controls all the software. It is the master, controller, supervisor for all other software. And GNU has nothing to do with Linux OS. Linux is a monolithic kernel == operating system. Linux runs alone in kernel mode and in supervisor mode. GNU software (excluding HURD) does not at all. In HURD. GNU Mach runs in kernel space, but whole HURD works in supervisor mode.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 "Many users do not understand the difference between the kernel, which is Linux, and the whole system, which they also call Linux. The ambiguous use of the name doesn't help people understand. These users often think that Linus Torvalds developed the whole operating system in 1991, with a bit of help." -Richard Stallman

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH RMS is total GNU fanatic whats problem is that he can not admit he is wrong and jealous for Linus that he managed to make a Linux operating system while GNU could not. Linux is only a operating system. Linux is nothing more than just a operating system. Linux is not a software system. It is not a development platform. Only a monolithic operating system.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH For Richard Stallman the "operating system" is product. The whole CD or DVD disk. He even believes that wallpaper or MP3 file is part of the operating system. He believes that everything what is distributed with the operating system belongs to the operating system. It is like he would believe that when you buy a bottle of milk, the bottle is part of the milk. And the milk is not just the liquid inside the bottle and they are two separate things.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH The software system stack goes (quote from operating system science book):

5.[Banking system][Airline reservation][Adventure games]

4.[Compilers][Editors][Command interpreter]

3.[Operating system]

2.[Machine language]

1.[Microprogrammin]

0.[ Physical devices]

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 If you take Debian and remove all the GNU software, does it still work? No. Does it still boot? No. The same is true for Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. And I believe for it to be an operating system it at least has to be able to be installed and booted. Now, you'll make the argument that you can just replace the GNU software with other software, but now the operating system isn't a GNU variant, it's a variant of whatever OS you took the other tools from to get it to boot again.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH "And I believe for it to be an operating system it at least has to be able to be installed and booted."

So there is not a Microsoft Windows but GNU/Windows because Microsoft use GNU software for installing Windows? If you have GNU bootloader, it does not make the OS as GNU/Something. If you have GNU project installer, it does not make the software as GNU/software. They are just TOOLS what you use for something else.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 "So there is not a Microsoft Windows but GNU/Windows because Microsoft use GNU software for installing Windows?"

Microsoft does no such thing, so that is out of the question. The bootloader just happens to be the first thing to start, it does not justify calling an operating system GNU/Something. In Debian's case the installation software isn't GNU software, but it needs GNU libraries and GTK+, and it installs all of the things that -- what you call -- "Linux" needs in order to boot.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 And like I said, Debian works without Linux, but every operating system does need a kernel. There is Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, which uses the FreeBSD kernel. Would you call GNU/kFreeBSD just "FreeBSD"? I don't think the BSD developers would like that. GNU/kFreeBSD doesn't act like FreeBSD, it acts almost the same as Debian GNU/Linux, because the GNU operating system decides its behavior. I have never seen an OS replace its kernel with Linux, but I've seen an OS replace Linux with kFreeBSD.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH You do not understand what the OS is. You do not know what functions is needed from the software so it is a operating system. You are playing just like a person who only knows what marketing guy has told. I have gived you links what are from multiple different computer science books about operating systems but you just continue to spread lies how Linux is not operating system but GNU/something is. The GNU has nothing to offer for Linux OS.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH If you replace Linux with HURD or kFreeBSD,, you have different OS. Then you have HURD or kFreeBSD (kFreeBSD is actually a FreeBSD but kFreeBSD is a server-client branch of it). GNU is lying and hunting fame what does not belong the them. They have even counterfeit standards to support their lies. The whole GNU/Linux is build for lies and marketing without any scientifical facts how computers works. No wonder they have so much problems with their own HURD operating system.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 GNU Hurd is a micro-kernel, the developers themselves call it as such. And kFreeBSD means Kernel of FreeBSD. Linux developers call Linux a kernel as well, because it is, the developers also call the complete GNU/Linux operating system simply "Linux" as well because they believe it is a better/simpler name and because Linux is responsible for completing the GNU operating system and making it actually boot, but even the Linux developers didn't do that work, the GNU Project did.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Now GNU/Hurd is a microkernel and not operating system what you told few messages later? Hurd is still a operating system what use a microkernel called GNU Mach. Unless you can proof that microkernel has a microkernel inside of it. At the same you can proof that OS has a OS inside of it. Linux is still a monolithic kernel, it is not a microkernel how much you would like to think it is. Monolithic kernel == operating system. Microkernel == part of the operating system.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 GNU/Hurd (GNU slash Hurd, as in GNU using Hurd) is the complete GNU Operating System, it's called GNU/Hurd because GNU/Linux and GNU/kFreeBSD exists. GNU Hurd (no slash, as in the GNU Project's Hurd). Hurd is part of GNU's kernel level operations, Hurd can use different micro-kernels, so Hurd together with a micro-kernel does the same job any other monolithic kernel does. Whether the combination is fully-featured is another thing all together. Linux is just one big blob in comparison.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Okay, replace Linux with GNU Mach and check does it work. NO. Because you replaced complete monolithic OS with just the microkernel what is just a part of OS. Hurd is the OS (GNU Mach + servers) as Linux, (k)FreeBSD, XNU, NT. Unless you can proof that kernel has kernel inside and Linux is a microkernel and Hurd is only a microkernel and not operating system.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 To replace Linux with GNU Mach, Mach would have to be functional it would also need all the other kernel stuff as well, i.e. drivers, firmware, ext3, etc. (micro-kernel don't include these), the most compatible set of kernel tools is GNU Hurd. The GNU Project develops the GNU Operating System, and GNU Hurd, a set of protocols and server processes (or daemons, in Unix) that run on top of the GNU Mach microkernel; together they are intended to form the kernel of the GNU operating system.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Mach is the WHOLE kernel. It is a microkernel and servers do not belong to it at all. Together microkernel+servers (modules) builds up a whole OS. Linux is monolithic kernel, the original structure how OS was developed. Kernel is synonym for the operating system. But only in the case when the OS is monolithic. Server-client is OS structure sliced to pieces, small microkernel and multiple servers. And You are again saying "kernel inside kernel".

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 "servers do not belong to it at all" the servers are the absolute equivalent to the drivers in Linux, they do the same job, they are simply removed from the kernel so if they crash the kernel doesn't crash as well. And how am I saying "kernel inside kernel"?

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Linux is modular, but it is not server-client but monolithic. You can separate parts of the OS in Linux to modules, but the separation is only in binary level, not in architecture level. This way OS is possible to get to use less RAM and be more stable when there is no un-needed features running. When Linux loads the module, it works exactly as it would be compiled in Linux. No differences. And you are saying that HURD is kernel and not the OS.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Hurd is OS = GNU Mach (microkernel) + servers. And Daemons are not OS servers. They are normal processes what are just running as services. The believe that Daemons are part of the OS is caused from the Client-Server architecture where every server is running in supervisor mode in protected thread to microkernel and they serve all other processes. Daemons are software like MySQL or AT what are just normal programs using services of OS servers (modules).

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Do you really believe that Microkernel + OS servers = kernel == OS = kernel (microkernel+servers) + programs?

The GNU propaganda of GNU/Linux has gone so deep to people who do not want to think themselfs. It is not so hard to actually notice that monolithic kernel is the operating system. And GNU has their own OS called HURD. They just want to call HURD as kernel (kernel inside the kernel) because otherwise their propaganda would come out.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 GNU Project's own definition of Hurd "The Hurd is the GNU project's replacement for the Unix kernel. ... The Hurd is firstly a collection of protocols ... The Hurd is also a set of servers that implement these protocols. They include file systems, network protocols and authentication. The servers run on top of the Mach microkernel and use Mach's IPC mechanism to transfer information."

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH UNIX operating system is a monolithic kernel x-)

That is accurate text from GNU project that they admit that HURD is the operating system but it is designed as a server-client architecture. GNU Mach is the microkernel == not the OS, just part of the OS, what is the HURD. Linux is just like original UNIX, a Monolithic OS.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH And Linux is not responsible for booting. That job is on bootloader like LILO, GRUB, Chameleon etc. Bootloader loads the operating system image to RAM and then OS takes the control. It does the hardware and selftest and starts to loading the software system as ordered. That is on most Unixes responsiblity of INIT or it clones. Linux has no parts from GNU project.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 "Linux is not responsible for booting." I know, in Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, RedHat, etc., by default GNU starts it and third party software continues it. The bootloader loads the kernel image (that's why it's name as such) into RAM, then the kernel starts INIT, the kernel starts and waits in a loop, then INIT starts everything else (mostly GNU), then stops. Already without INIT the OS won't boot. A useless kernel will. INIT is not GNU software nor Linux, Sysvinit is what most use.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH GRUB is not part of the operating system. It is just a bootloader. It job is to start the operating system what then takes control of the hardware. The kernel is the oldest name for operating system. But there are different kind operating systems and kernel does not apply to all of them. You need to know do you speak monolithic or server-client operating system. INIT is first process what OS starts. Unless you can proof that OS does not manage processes...

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 GRUB is part of GNU, the operating system. GRUB's job is to initiate the kernel boot process by creating the initial ramdisk and starting everything the resides in it (drivers, modules, kernel, settings, instructions). No, kernels used to be all there was, just like there used to only be ROM, and ROM based input/output systems (BIOS). But even the first kernels need some sort of shell in order to interact with it. In GNU/Linux, INIT is stored as INITRD. In GNU Mach INIT is a server.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH GRUB is part of GNU Project. But it is not part of the OS. Bootloader is not part of the OS. The Bootloader STARTS the OS. bootloader -> OS... And bootloader does not initiate any ramdisk, drivers or any other OS parts. Those are job of the OS itself. And OS does not need at all anykind shell. Shell is a program what runs on OS. INIT does not belong Linux OS either. It is the first process what OS starts. And it rules by the scripts how the other processes are started.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 Operating System==firmware -> assembler -> kernel -> operating system and applications. In my case this is AMD/SiS, AMD/SiS, GNU binutils, Linux, GNU, GNOME/Firefox/Blender/GIMP,etc­., respectively. As for GRUB, go to GRUB hit 'e' and observe the file named something similar to "initrd.img-2.6.32-amd64-5" this is a initial ramdisk, it's loaded into RAM before the real filesystem is loaded, it holds files needed by the kernel, and supplies a place for the kernel to operate.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH So you now believe that OS is firmware + assembler + kernel + operating system + application programs... the whole COMPUTER. So NOW you are saying that kernel is not part of the operating system (otherwise you could not say kernel + operating system). And GRUB has support for filesystems. That is one of it's greatest features. Example LILO does not have. Thats why you need to re-install LILO after OS update so it knows what blocks it reads from disk.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 "the whole COMPUTER" No, just everything that is needed to use the hardware for what the hardware is designed for. The operating system is everything that is need to operate your system.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Again totally wrong assumption. All the software what is stored to harddisks (etc) is called simple as System (needed to explain in the context) but it accurate name is "Software System". The operating system is just very small, but complex, software what runs all other software like compilers, shells, text editors, games, GUI's, browsers, mediaplayers etc. All those system programs and application programs has depencies to other softwares but under them there is a OS.

[Laoch111]

Excellent documentary.

[FacultyFan]

I want this documentary!

[TheFri13]

@FacultyFan you can download it. Its name is "The Code". Butut do not mistake it to the movie called "The Code"

[rxcyberz]

GNU userland, Linux kernel.

[EMPUTER]

hahah filosofer...???¿?¿? richard stallman developed GNU so many powerfull compilers....

[anfenn]

Read Linus' autobiography "Just for Fun". Good read.

[KernelThread]

To be fair, Linux is the kernel not the whole OS.. GNU/Linux to keep both of them happy lol.. both are great founders of this great OS

[TheFri13]

Linux is the WHOLE OS. Linux is not a microkernel but a monolithic kernel. The kernel is the original name of the OS when OS's were monolithic. Later OS was sliced to multiple parts and you got very small kernel and modules what were called as servers. The kernel was not anymore whole OS so it got classified as "microkernel". And it is server-client architechture OS. While Linux is Monolithic OS.

GNU's own OS is the Hurd, it has GNU Mach microkernel. Hurd is not a kernel but OS

[KernelThread]

@TheFri13 : Linux was named by Linus

to the kernel which he developed, and

the rest of the OS utilities came from the

Gnu. The OS is not just the kernel, I know the difference betwe

the micro kernel and the monolithic kernel ,

Minix is based on micro-kernel.

[TheFri13]

@KernelThread Linux was not named by Linus. It was named by the man who arraged the FTP site for Linus for his OS.

And kernel is the operating system. If you would know about operating systems, you would know that because monolithic kernel is whole OS in one address space. Minix is Andrew S.Tanenbaums own operating system for universities etc. And it is server-client architechtured operating system and not monolithic. Hurd is the GNU's own OS.

[KernelThread]

@TheFri13 Mate, I know about system programming a lot. I have worked on several OS kernel projects. Monolthtic means the drivers and other OS services are all running in ring zero, micro kernels kicked all (most) drivers out of ring zero. The OS is not just the kernel that is my point, you got libraries, compilers, she;; etc that is my point. I know the kernel is the most critical part, but kernel on its own can do nothing to users.

[TheFri13]

@KernelThread Libraries, compilers etc DOES NOT belong to the OS. Every compiler, library etc NEEDS an OS. No one can do without just the OS anything. They need all other software to work with. OS is just that part of software what offers filesystems, networking, device drivers, memory management, process management. OS offers all it's functions by system calls to all other NON-OS softwares. You can build own system call wrapper if wanted and C-lib is such already. Linux kernel is the OS.

[TheFri13]

And those are the facts if you study OS and you build one. You can get exactly same information that Linux kernel is the OS when you come to Helsinki University where Linus studied, same infos by Andres S.Tanenbaum who wrote the Minix and so on. It is just so big propaganda that people believes that Linux is just a kernel like it would be a microkernel. GNU has NOTHING to do with the Linux OS. They have own OS Hurd. Own microkernel called GNU Hurd.

[KernelThread]

@TheFri13: We seem going around in circles here, I know all you said and more lol. I am saying the OS for the applications all OS utilities, shell and kernel. I know most of recent OS start as Micro-kernel and then they end up Monolithic. Everybody knows about the story of Linux OS. I personally call Linux OS as Linux not Gnu/Linux, anyway, the OS is more than just a kernel. OS kernel that managers resources, but not the whole OS. lollIt really depends on how you define the OS.

[TheFri13]

@KernelThread Microkernels do not end up as monolithic. Monolithic OS can be modular. But it is still monolithic. Server-client OS's has has kernel separated from the OS functions what rans as separated threadhs etc. And first you said that monolithic kernel is the OS. Then OS was +libraries + programs. Then it is those + user interface. It is like saying KDE/XORG/GNU/LINUX.

[TheFri13]

Example.

Bash does not without OS at all (process management, filesystem, I/O, memorymanagement etc).

Glibc can not work without OS (exm without filesystem, process management, memorymanagement etc)

None of the programs from binutils can not work without OS functions. None of the GNU user space software work without the OS.

GNU has own OS. Hurd. The Hurd has a microkernel called GNU Mach. It is like saying kernel has a kernel inside it if followed the GNU/ naming in technical way.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13

GNU is the operating system, not Hurd. Hurd is a set a servers that run on top of a micro-kernel, the micro-kernel for Hurd is still undecided. GNU includes the scripts, shells, compilers, C libraries, kernel (Hurd/Mach) and other OS utilities. All things that define an operating system.

Linux is just a kernel.

And GNU can be ran without Linux and even without Hurd. It's called Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, because it uses all the normal GNU software, but with the FreeBSD kernel.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH

Hurd is the operating system. It has all the OS functions what are needed. GNU Mach (the microkernel) + filesystems, process management, memory management, I/O, device drivers etc. None of C lib, shell, compiler, scripts etc does not work without OS. All those NEEDS an OS.

Linux is monolithic OS. It is the original structure how the OS's were build. The OS's were called first kernels when they all were monolithics. Then came the modular server-client architecture to replace it.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH And GNU is a project, not software. GNU has lots of great softwares, but most famous are the developing softwares. Without them you could not build any other software (of course you could (using non-GNU) but they are just great in development). The FreeBSD is as well a monolithic OS. Same way as are all other three BSD's. DragonBSD is the newest fork of FreeBSD. Other two are OpenBSD and NetBSD. All those four are forks of original BSD operating system. All are monolithics.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 GNU is an operating system, so it is software. GNU BASH, GNU C Library, Glib, GCC, GNOME, GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP), these are all sub-GNU software, GNU is a project for developing software for the GNU Operating System.

And, operating systems cannot be monolithic, kernels can. This goes double for GNU, because GNU is designed to work with GNU Hurd, and Hurd is designed to use a micro-kernel (non-monolithic).

GNU/Linux is a non-monolithic OS running a monolithic kernel.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH GNU/Linux is a Linux operating system running GNU software. Nothing else. Linux is monolithic operating system. Using the same original UNIX structure what was used when first Unix was developed and as they are still done in mostly. The operating system can be a monolithic or server-client. Both can be modular. Only other can be single binary. GNU is project what purpose was to make a own OS and all the software for it. Linux just was better OS!

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 The problem is your definition of an OS. An operating system is software that provides the user with an interface, hardware support and support to run and use applications. Standard GNU/Linux boot order goes like this: GNU GRUB, Linux+GNU, Init+GNU, XOrg, GNU. Linux cannot run by itself, you need a shell to even interact with the kernel, a C Library for most programs to run, and a Userland. An operating system is the whole working product, Linux is just a kernel.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH It is not my definition. It is definition in computer science how the computers work. The hardware and the software. Operating system does not offer any user interface, it offers interface for the user. Every commandline or graphical user interface needs an working operating system under them. Without operating system Bash, Gnome or any other user interaface not not work. Linux does not need C library, some other softwares need it.. OS is in kernel space or rans in supervisor mode.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 An operating system is something you can use your software with. An example Linux+GCC=nothing, and with Linux+BASH+GCC written in Assembly=Maybe able to see errors. But Linux+GNU (gLibc, BASH, binutils, coreutils)+GCC=perfect compiling. That's why GNU/Linux - Linux + kFreeBSD = GNU/kFreeBSD not Linux/kFreeBSD, and it's definitely not just FreeBSD. In other words Linux cannot be a functional kernel without the GNU operating system, and GNU is not functional without a kernel, Linux / BSD

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Still Linux kernel is the operating system. You do nothing just with the operating system. You need other software to do your work. GCC, GlibC, Bash etc are just a "middleware". Not part of the operating system at all. They are need operating system under them to run. And now you are saying that GNU is the operating system and Linux is not part that, just vice versa what you have tried to say without techinical proofs.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Start explaining how GLibC works without filesystems, process management, memory managemet and I/O? How does Bash work without those? How does XORG or INIT work without them? Do you know how GRUB, or any other bootloader work? LInux does not even need GRUB, it can use LILO or you can even use firmware to load specific blocks from harddrive. It is just difficult to write support for every used filesystem.The OS is just a small software in the system what you call "product". like Linux

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 Well first, after compiling Linux with the GNU Compiler Collection (gcc) or some other compiler (if you're not using GNU), Linux runs, an application then runs, and Linux uses gLibc to understand what it wants it to do. You're right, you can run an OS without a kernel, it doesn't have to be Linux, just as it doesn't have to be Hurd. The OS atop is still GNU. Of course you don't have to use GRUB, but you are if you're using a default GNU system. GRUB doesn't need Linux or any OS to run.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 Correction: "you cannot run an OS without a kernel" my bad

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH OS is the monolithic kernel alone or it is microkernel + servers. GNU has own OS called Hurd. It is server-client just like Minix is. Microkernel and all other OS functions separated running in supervisor mode (in kernel space or user space). Linux is just like other Unixes, a monolithic operating system. Not a microkernel. you are mistaking those as same. There is no need for any GNU software what Linux would need to functional. None. Zipit.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Wrong. You do not need compiler to run Linux. You need compiler for every software to get it from source code to binary code. That does not make any software as GNU/. Or otherwise Windows is GNU/Windows (part of it gets compiled with GCC). Then Linux does not need glibc to run any other application. They need glibc. Program -> glibc -> Linux. You can have programs without need glibc running. It is just a library. GNU has own OS Hurd (GNU Mach + servers) you can replace it with Linux.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH That "OS provides the user interface" is one big mistake what people believe. It was the case on DOS. DOS was build how the OS was command intrepreter+device drivers+program loader, it was 0 generation OS. Unix was monolithic from the beginning and on these days it is 4th generation OS,it has been a few decades as such.There are multiple different OS architectures and they all build different way the OS. You just believe the OS is product. tinyurl . com / mum9x (place that together)

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 MINIX Version 3.1.5 was released 5 Nov 2009. It contains X11, emacs, vi, cc, gcc, perl, python, ash, bash, zsh, ftp, ssh, telnet, pine, and over 400 other common UNIX utility programs (two aforementioned are GNU software). MINIX is an operating system that contains it's own microkernel. So when MINIX developers talk about their operating system being non-monolithic, they are right because the MINIX microkernel is part of their operating system.

[TheFri13]

@TheJakeDTH Hah what lies. Do you know how is Andrew S.Tanenbaum? A professor who wrote the Minix and who maintains it and who got just 6 million euros from EU to develop it more secure. He has wrote over 16 books of operating systems, over 125 scientifical papers of server-client and monolithic operating systems and he's work is used on all universities around the world as basic books for operating system studies. Even he say that the Linux kernel is the operating system.

[TheFri13]

how = who.

You could easily check out his famous depate with Linus why server-client architecture for operating systems is better than monolithic architecture.

To you being right, you should give somekind techinical proof that gcc, glibc, bash etc are modules for Linux. That they are in kernel space and running in supervisor mode.

There is nothing wrong to admit that you have false believe GNU has something to do with Linux OS. I tought same thing long time ago as you do currently.

[TheJakeDTH]

@TheFri13 No he says "Linux" is the operating system, Linux is a kernel, but many people confuse the Linux kernel for being an operating system. So when he says "Linux" is an operating system he really means "GNU/Linux" is an operating system. When he and Linus were arguing over the micro-kernel vs. monolithic kernel, he repeatedly referred to Linux as a kernel and as an operating system, as in the name applies to both things. He is used to speaking of operating systems as a whole, Minix+Kernel.

[TheFri13]

@KernelThread And Server-client architecture does not mean that only drivers are outside of kernel space. Filesystems, networking and many other OS parts are separated from the microkernel and are all running in protected threads to the microkernel.The original idea of server-client architechture is that microkernel runs in kernel space alone, everything else out of it but in supervisor mode. Thats why it is said that the OS is that part of software what works in kernel space or supervisor mode

[Quxs]

ben bu adama hastayım yaw :D

Dağıtım olarakda DEBIAN;a

[mrmartinmartin]

Linus & Stallman don't appear to get along anymore!

[intgrx]

They never have got along on the personal level, but it doesn't matter.

[kernelws]

linus and richard stallman

wow

[mschwage]

Groovy.