Mondrasek Gravity-Assisted Magnet Wheel Latch Mechanism

[TheSportsbot]

what if you had a small-load fan assisting in the turning- could the magnet get some sort of relative bang for the fan's buck?  helps with the pulling and maybe the fan would help with the pushing.

[peteressenberger]

@SROnivera What if the central bearings and the tubes to the magnets to slide in were suspended with magnetism so no contact...AND in a vacuume

[kamalmichael]

whaT about smaller lenth of tubes and more powerful magnet

[bshinn4884]

I'm sure that the pursuits of some of the greatest minds in history were also futile... until they managed to "get it right" and change the way we live.

[1Mzjack]

genial.

[PsycCentauri]

Now if only you can get rid of the friction within the tubular structures ( the ones that hold the little magnets.

[TheLoonwolf]

Surely something like sponge instead of screws would prevent the magnets bouncing back. When you say the fundamental principle is flawed, do you mean the repulsion of the magnets would always slow it down more than it speeds up from being heavier on one side, no matter how it's designed? If instead it's simply because the magnets keep bouncing back, then the principle remains sound.

[wyrrox]

The moment I saw the static wheel I thought ''Fail''

[EEMEPhysicist]

@jib1000 that's exactly what I thought!!

[TinselKoala]

@EEMEPhysicist

Yes, mee too.

It is indeed usually futile to attempt to show "free energy inventors" the errors of their theories and designs. But, in this case, to his everlasting credit, Mondrasek eventually re-did his calculations and found his errors, and acknowledged that his invention, which I have built and improved, cannot possibly work.

He's still trying though.... hence the futility of my pursuits.

[BartofGod]

@TinselKoala "futility of my pursuits"

My wife sent one of those ghost videos to her friend. One of those that jumps out at you, and scares you at the end after they have you concentrating on a rocking chair in the room. Her friend sent a note back. She wanted to know if it was real. A grown woman, and she thought the video was real. I bet she's outside right now looking for aliens. I've been secretly working on inventing a hamburger tree for years. So if you run into any cheese seeds pm me k

[jib1000]

WOW.... just think of what you could accomplish if your pursuits weren't futile.

[terrorcotta2]

Nice word play on Nikola Tesla. Since you don't think perpetual motion is possible,  your passion went in to recreating a failure...and not trying to succeed. That's not the true nature of inventing.

[TinselKoala]

@terrorcotta2

Apparently you believe the true nature of inventing is trying over and over to succeed at something that fundamental principles tell us is impossible. To me, that is a solid waste of time and effort. There are many very creative builders who are wasting their time by attempting something that is not possible. So I sometimes attempt to illustrate why and how they have gone wrong. The full story of the Mondrasek wheel's invention is interesting... you might like to look it up.

[danielwhitman]

@TinselKoala but when inventing you make something new....something can defy previous laws and thus can create new technologies...

[Hendrix92TheUniverse]

The bearings don't appear to be moving freely to me. The wheel stopped after just a rotation or two after you manually pushed it. It would seem to me that a single push should let the wheel spin at least 20 times if the bearings had little resistance. To understand what I'm saying, just think of a bicycle wheel.

[TinselKoala]

@Hendrix92TheUniverse

The bearings aren't the best; I used non-metallic bearings with plastic races and glass balls. But most of the drag is actually coming from all those magnets sliding against the walls of the tubes. When the magnets are removed (or if they are there but the stators are removed so the magnets stay stuck on the inner or outer wires) the wheel turns much better, but still not as good as it would on real ball bearings. I just wanted to avoid any stray magnetic attractions.

[roylinfordadams]

People keep laughing at all these guys trying this stuff but one day someone will get it right.... and then disappear in the middle of the night in a black van with government plates.

[hardhatg69]

always told that dropping a magnet will make it lose strength....so wouldnt the slamming of the magnets(over and over) wear them out???

[TinselKoala]

@hardhatg69

NdB magnets are resistant to that kind of demagnetization. More likely would be for them to break or chip.

Alnico and mild steel or soft iron permanent magnets are the ones that can demag if mechanically shocked.

[perazaroberto2]

good

[Yezpahr]

Golden Ratio is the answer.

Make a bend in the "magnet-guide channels", as you called them, according to the Golden ratio. The middle axle is the end-point (middle spot) of the golden ratio-circle, it will prevent them from falling back and not sticking to the screws.

Also, no matter how hard it is to find out the strength of each magnet, do it anyway. Good luck, keep up the good work, it's not a failed concept.

You got this far, don't let the subscribers down.

[charbexx]

What about adding an extension on the upper stater so that it goes past the outer wheel edge with a positive magnet attached to hold it onto the outer edge?. It could go down to the halfway point to make sure it sticks ?!!

Just a thought :o)

and do you know if the Ajack Abeling Gravity Wheel is for real ?

:o)

[TinselKoala]

@charbexx

Since a conventional kinematic analysis tells us that no matter how clever the mechanism, the energy available from a falling weight is only determined by its height, not how it got there...there is no reason to believe that any "gravity wheel" will "work", that is, continue to turn more than expected from its starting impulse.

Is the Abeling gravity wheel real? In what sense...are there people working on such a device? Yes. Are they wasting their time? Yes.

[RCbeastly]

Perhaps you can fine tune for each magnet bymoving the wire s bit further away for those that are too strong. I think it would be easier than trying to find matching strenght magnets.

[TinselKoala]

@RCbeastly

Perhaps I could spend an equal effort pissing up a rope. It has the same chance of making a working free energy gravity/magnet wheel. It would be easier than trying to put a bunch of snakes into a bucket.

[MikhailDmitriyev]

I know what to do to make this device work.

[TinselKoala]

@MikhailDmitriyev

Do you now...

Please tell me how, and if it's not too hard and doesn't involve a motor, I'll try it. Maybe.

[diesalweasel]

all well leaset you tryed back to the dawing board

[philyLewis]

oooooooooooook... you do see that if you ever got this to run fast enough (which it NEVER WILL for all the same reasons no one elses design will) then all those magnets will be forced to the outside because or centrifugal force the second they pass the magnet... So to recap... an impossible idea by an impossible method!

[TinselKoala]

@philyLewis

Exactly. There is a finely tuned speed at which the CF balances the MF and the magnets just wobble back and forth. Above this speed, the wheel won't work. Below this speed, the wheel won't work. But exactly at this speed...the wheel still won't work.

[misterG2006]

You can't get something from nothing.

Any perpetual motion machine that actually runs continuosly would stop as soon as any energy is taken out of the system (to generate power).

The best thing for generating free energy that I've heard about is an infrared panel (like a solar panel but works on infrared). It works day and night :)

[Vennificus]

reminds me of the axeltree dynamo

[DespriteGraveDigger]

i think your loosing energy having the magnets loose. all the momentum is going to up to make the magnet jump insted of sideways against the body of the wheel

[McDaniel77]

Maybe you need more pushers on the left side (outer edge) and more pushers inside (inner wheel), for better pushing control.

Fast rotation will force those magnets move outside, its necessary to keep the rotation speed low and steady.

[McDaniel77]

Crazy idea... us a stronger magnet to push them.

[TinselKoala]

Tried it. They bounce off the other end without sticking then.

If I had the time and patience I'm sure a proper balance and firing/sticking could happen, but it still won't turn on its own.

[gutbucket0]

whats the point of this ?

[TinselKoala]

No point at all.

So you can go back to your comedians without being afraid of missing anything.

[Rasperdan]

well im not up on all this .. but great to see somebody realy going for it ... this is how you start to be a geniuse .. sry if english is bad

[rlortie]

It will not work as it presents the same problem as any 'height for width' design. No matter what the mechanical transference used, you always end up with a concentration of mass close to the axle which outweighs the leverage capability of the spread descending weights. There is always one more weight raising than falling.

[TinselKoala]

Darn. I guess it's back to the drawing board again.

Or I suppose I could just put an Orbo in it.

[FiniteTuning]

I believe the principle is correct, however, the mechanics of the devise leave much to be desired. This may function far better if some sort of molly coating was applied, or even a shot of WD40. But in either case I'm sure we both can agree, there is a better way to achieve perpetual motion.

Excellent demo, as always!

[WhichDoctor1]

Very nice work but you described why it doesn't work in the vid. the wheel has to be moving at some speed for the stater magnets to throw the little magnet up hard enough. that means it is transferring energy from the movement of the wheel to move the magnets and hence every time a magnet goes past the stater it will slow the wheel down by more than can be recovered by the magnets wait. Sorry it always comes back to that damn conservation of energy thing again :-(

[TinselKoala]

Do you really mean to tell me that a gravity wheel cannot possibly work? Funny, I realized that from the very start. ;)

Yeh, that's one analysis. Of course you don't really need to go that deep: It's a gravity wheel crossed (or rather dotted) with a magnet wheel. It cannot work because both those fields of force are conservative.

All the rest simply defines what we mean by "conservative field of force."

Darn.

You've got to admit, though, the wire is a clever idea. JK is really a pro.

[1monsoonwoman1]

Hi TK, I love your idea! I'm not sure why its not working, I would assume that the mass of the magnets in the wheel are not enough to overcome the opposing forces(its like you need more torque?) If you know what I mean? I have attempted my first gravity wheel and now that I have establshed what is causing it to not operate as it should, my next model which is currently being designed will work as expected, please have a look and let me know what you think, thanks!

[TinselKoala]

That's absolutely beautiful!!

It will never work, of course... but don't let that stop you!

I am not kidding or being sarcastic. (Well, maybe a bit.) But your design and build is truly one of the best attempts I've seen.

The problem is that it takes just exactly as much work to raise a weight up, as the weight returns when it descends. This does not depend at all on the clever paths taken by the mechanisms or the time course of the events (neglecting friction losses, of course.)

[TinselKoala]

Oh, and neither of the two main ideas in this video are "mine". The main wheel design is Mondrasek's, and the wire latch mechanism idea came from "JK", the magnet motor expert in our laboratory. I just build things and test them, I try not to have too many "ideas", they strain my brain.

[muddymuddymuddmann]

but is the momentumS abrupt stop absorbed into the direction of the rotation or just toward the bearing. that is what they are not seeing. they would not understand an inclined beveled rotary pretrusionary device if it hit thier screw driver.

MUDDMANN

[muddymuddymuddmann]

i see a loss of energy in the wasted momentum of the magnets travel. perhaps an angled throw would help.

mudd

[TinselKoala]

Yep, you are right, there is wasted momentum in the movement.

Consider: If we got rid of all wasted energy like this, and friction, and air resistance, and other "second order" losses, we would eventually get to a wheel that would keep turning once we started it.

So what? The very best we can do is get back to zero.

But there are clever mechanisms that will enable the builder to approach that zero.

The best is a solid disk with no moving parts except the bearing.

[muddymuddymuddmann]

YEP, and by the way. I like the toys. oh and dont forget the resistance of the air rushing around the magnets.

MUDD

[TinselKoala]

I actually reamed those magnet channels to be smooth and precise on the inside, just bigger enough than the magnets to let them slide without a lot of air resistance. But that is certainly a major loss. But the air is in the tube, so some people will try to convince you that the momentum isn't lost, it stays on the wheel. But I don't think that's right.

[goldocoasto]

good work.,

[madepandora24]

YES YES YES :)

[mondrasek]

TK, I was thrilled to see yoy toying with this again. I've missed you on OU.

JK's idea is elegant, but I think average effects are the same as the pins. Pins initially attract causing acceleration of the wheel and then continue to attract after passing the stator mags and decelerate the wheel equaly? So pins cause a cogging effect while the wire loops allow for smooth motion. But neither is better or worse for performance.

Can/do you get PM's on OU?

M.

[TinselKoala]

Thanks, M. I got totally fed up with OU and haven't looked there in quite a while. The MyLOW thing on peswiki, and the way Sterling fell all over it, really got my goat, so I dug up the old testing video to try to get somebody to do a proper control experiment. Now I've gone and done it again--I made a basic MyLOW wheel assembly, put some magnets on it, and did some rundown testing. I'm uploading the video right now, please check it out. You can PM me here if you like; I don't look at OU at all.

[jasminrousseau]

with most longer and stronger stator magnets, you will success to battle the enertial speed and the system will work perpetually. Good work!

[Magluvin]

Great idea with the wire latch. I have been working with mechanical latching that is needed for the same purpose of keeping a magnet in position after being moved or turned, until the next move or turn is made. In my case, it needs to be mechanical with a release lever that is actuated just before the move or turn. At first I used tiny mags from some hard drives, the ones that hold the read arm in place. But it either took too much to release it or wasnt enough to hold at high speed.

Nice work.

[TinselKoala]

Great minds think alike! I tried the tiny magnets on this wheel, too, but the wire works better for me. I attached the little magnets outside the tubes, and the sliders would jam against them. With this wheel there's a "sweet speed" where the CF effect works in favor of putting the magnets where they belong; slower or faster and they don't go or they stick--same as in your case, it sounds like.