PWP013 Lawrence O'Donnell vs. Mitt Romney

[tempelton]

Hi there. I probably wouldn't agree with you on too much politically or theologically (I am a European leftwing type). However, I thought this commentary represented a thoughtful and honest approach to the subject and that, yes indeed, O'Donnell was acting irrationally and without enough consideration for the accuracy of his ire. He can be thoughtful but I think his problem is he is too combatative when in imagined enemy territory. Oh well. :)

[keltontrey]

The problem is that this was not "Doctrine" it was a practice that crept into the church. Which from all accounts was not right. The church although set up and organized according to Gods will is still run by people.

[sagondo]

You are wrong about George Romney! If any Mormon were to defy the LDS official position or policy they would absolutely be excommunicated : Sonja Johnson is just on well known example.Having lived in Utah for 40+ years I know exactly how they'd react!

If you stop taking Mitts word as fact and research this you'd know he's lying. Mitt also claimed he marched with MLK, but changed his story when challenged on that statement. Romney is a chicken hawk,supports war but won't send his own 5 sons.

[pudgenet]

"If any Mormon were to defy the LDS official position or policy they would absolutely be excommunicated"

False. Nice try though.

[pudgenet]

You won't allow me to reply to you in message, so I will reply here:

I don't care what you claim is fact: Romney HAS IN FACT ALREADY done things that would "defy" official LDS policy -- for example, signing a bill that pays for abortions in Massachusetts -- and he hasn't been excommunicated yet.

So we already have proof you are wrong: he defied LDS policy, you said he would "absolutely be excommunicated" for it, and he was not excommunicated for it. So you're wrong.

[pudgenet]

I am not saying people don't get excommunicated. I am saying that there is no tedency whatsoever for the LDS church to excommunicate high-profile politicians for taking popular views, even if those views are against the church's views, despite your claim to the contrary.

[575391]

One more item for the record, The LDS faith has not nor ever will be racist. Joseph Smith abhorred slavery and fought for the rights of all of God's children.

[575391]

PWP013, WOW, Bravo! Let me preface that I am a black Mormon my mother is a 5th generation Latter Day Saint. I find it absolutely refreshing that educated adults can see past all the static of politics. I am not a Mitt fan totally ( I am Republican), his battle had he not graciously bowed out would have been a continued waste of money and time. It is not Mitt's turn now. It interesting that America can see a woman or a blackman as president but not a Mormon.

[mpalm887]

I've got to say I respect you. Very intelligent analysis, and I think you're views of Romney at this point are bang-on. Well done on this video.

[lttp123]

people got to realize that religion changes by the times. i am 57 years old and every church at that time were racist. i do however remember mormon people making food stands during the marches in michigan. any other church denied me access even the evangelical church at that time but at least mormons treated us like human beings.

[slim123jim]

Shave that beard man !!!

[primoabruzzi]

If Diebold can plant Romney into the whitehouse, a beneficial side effect will be the scrutiny placed on the Mormon organization here in the intermountain west.

[VoodooMagicMan]

You don't know what your talking about. Your Great-Great-Great-Great-Great-­Great might have fucked Goats. Hell your Dad might. It doesn't make you bad.

[pudgenet]

Who are you talking to? You appear to be responding to me, but I agree with what you said.

[ZodrazLaBolga]

O'Donnell goes way over board, but comparing him to the Taliban goes even more overboard. I feel O'Donnell's tirade muddies the issue. The Thing about Romney is that he wants to blur the line between church and state, or he says he does as asop to christians and if we do that all these passion and immutable BELIEFS will become part of our poiltics. and we will never be able get anything done

[pudgenet]

Romney does not in any way want to blur any line between church and state.

[superfizz]

then his talks on this topic are sops to evangelical christians, you may be right. but these are dangerous sops because they will come with expectations.

[pudgenet]

I defy you to come up with a single example. They don't exist. What you call blurring the line between church and state is, in fact, no such thing.

[evan119]

Thank you for your viewpoint. Although I am not mormon, I have researched the religion quite a bit, and that Lawrence O'Donnell's argument holds no water whatsoever. Using the term "racist" in connection with mormonism bugs me. It implies that non-whites were not allowed to join the church prior to 1978, which is not the case. Mr. O'Donnell's ideas on theology are boarder dangerously close to the extremism that I spent nearly 3 years fighting against in Afghanistan.

[fernandospero]

I don't think that you are an expert on Mormons, especially since you aren't one. However, you obviously know a lot more than O'Donnell does.

[pudgenet]

I never pretended to be an expert.  I know some things. I know Mormons do not comport with my idea of what Biblical Christianity is. I know Mormons disagree with me on that. I know that, similarly, the FLDS disagrees with the LDS about what Mormonism is, and that we will never reach agreement on these issues and that we should learn to accept that we disagree.

And I know O'Donnell is an idiot. :-)

[fernandospero]

I just don't understand why the Mormons are't considered Christian by many other Christian sects although they accept Christ as their savior and constantly read the Bible and teach from it. If Jesus Christ is in their church's name, then they should at least be considered Christian.

[pudgenet]

Mormons believe things that most Christians believe are antithetical to Christianity, for example, that God was once a normal man, and that normal men can become gods.

Having the name of Jesus Christ in your church's name doesn't make you Christian, in my book, nor does teaching the Bible, if you also teach/believe things that are against the Bible IMO.

[theAstud]

But it's not against the bible. They clarify some of the conflicting views of the bible.

[pudgenet]

Yes, they clarify those views to their satisfaction. Not to mine.

[osmond1111]

Thank You

[mindstretch1]

1) Lawrence O' Donnell is a hate-mongering jerk

2) Mormon's don't practice polygamy

3) By demanding Mitt Romney publicly state all his opinions on his faith, he is imposing a religious test, which is prohibited in the Constitution

4) He's got his facts wrong: (1) Joseph Smith was NOT pro-slavery, and (2) the Mormon Church is no more rascist than Protestant and Catholic churches who didn't allow black priests until well into the 20th Century

[pudgenet]

1. Yes, he is.

2. I'll respond in another post.

3. Not quite. The Constitution only says that their cannot be a government test for religion. Individuals are free to have their own religious tests for their vote. That said, it is against the spirit of the Constitution, certainly.

4.1. I'll take your word for it.

4.2. Yes, the Protestant and Catholic churches -- as Buchanan noted -- have a long history of racism.

[pudgenet]

Re: #2, some people call themselves Mormons, and practice polygamy. While I accept that you disavow them as "real" or "true" Mormons, I am troubled, because I am told it is some terrible thing for Protestants and Catholics to disavow Mormons as "true" Christians. If you can decide who is not Mormon, can't others decide who are not Christians?

[mindstretch1]

Okay, I think we're just splitting unecessary hairs. MAINSTREAM Mormons (by far the biggest Mormon group at 13 million) do NOT practice polygamy.

[pudgenet]

I realize that "mainstream" Mormons do not practice polygamy. But if I say something similar, that Christians do not believe men become gods, or that "mainstream" Christians do not believe that, then Mormons get quite upset.

I am just pointing out the disconnect.

[brianwhitney]

I think where the disconnect lies is that we Latter-Day Saints believe that Apostolic Authority has been restored the Church of Jesus Christ (which we believe was lost for a couple of centuries...roughly after the original Apostles were killed off or exhiled). This means that we believe that the Church is now led by a contemporary Quorum of Twelve Apostles and a First Presidency who have divine apostolic authority to receive revelation from God on behalf of His Church on the earth.

[brianwhitney]

When the Apostles through revelation issued the decree that Polygamy was no longer to be practiced, we accept that as the Word of God. Those who continue to practice polygamy were then going against that revelation.

[brianwhitney]

Similarly, when the Quorum of Twelve Apostles and First Presidency decreed in 1978 that all men, regardless of race, were permitted to be ordained into Priesthood Offices within the Church, we accepted that as the Word of God - and most of us shouted for joy, I might add. One fact that often gets overlooked is that black men and women have always been welcomed as members of the Church, but black men were not able to serve in Priesthood Offices within the Church.

[pudgenet]

Sure, but I can make a similar argument that LDS members are going against the revelation of the Bible. I am just saying, whether or not LDS members are Christians, and whether FLDS members are Mormons, is all a matter of perspective of what IS Christianity and what IS Mormonism.

[brianwhitney]

I agree with you as it relates to Christianity in general, but not as it relates to being LDS. What is Mormonism is not a matter of perspective because the foundation of what we call the "Restored Gospel" rests on the idea of the apostolic authority and revelatory decrees of our First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve. If a member of the LDS church rejects these decrees, then they reject also the authority and divinity of the Church.

[pudgenet]

Sorry, no, that is not acceptable. In my opinion, what is Christianity is not a matter of perspective in the same way: being a Christian relies on certain fundamental principles too.

Theologically, you are not a Christian, to me, just like FLDS members are not Mormon, to you.

[brianwhitney]

(Cont.) So it's not at all like ecumenical Christianity where you can disagree with a particular denominations interpretation of scripture or doctrine (such as full-emersion baptism vs sprinkling of water), but still consider your and their decrees to be part of the greater Community of Christ. The LDS Church is quite clear on it's teachings, and does not allow conflicts of "perspective" to arise within it's ranks.

[brianwhitney]

Historically speaking, this claim of restored apostolic authority has probably sparked more outrage amidst our Christian neighbors than our stances on blacks and the Priesthood or polygamy. It's the audacious claim that Joseph Smith was God's only authorized mouthpiece upon the earth and that all who did not adhere to his apostolic authority were in apostasy.

[aiknen]

romney says he believes in the "faith of his fathers"

so lets not forget what the renowned wholesome mormon spiritual leader, bingham young said about interracial relationships... he said that any mormon who chooses to mix their blood with that of the black race, the penalty is "death on the spot"...doesn't that just make you all warm and fuzzy inside?

[Whistlestar57]

I'm a Mormon who does not support Romney. In spite of some past racism in the church which we strive to overcome, Smith ordained Blacks to the Priesthood and ran for President on an anti-slavery platform in 1844. He was a prophet of God, making his human mistakes, but he was no fraud. By their fruits you will know them. Truth will prevail. In the meantime, we get attacked by both the extreme right and the left - should tell you something.

[senordrummer]

One of Joseph Smith's bodyguards, and best friends, was black. Joseph Smith also housed two black women that were runaway slaves, and then he adopted them as his own daughters, refusing to allow them to work as slaves for him. In fact, one of the reasons the Mormons were run out of Illinois is because they were believed to be Abolitionists and Joseph Smith wanted to run for President on and Anti-Slavery platform.

[senordrummer]

I am amused at how you state that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a racist church. You assume this because of the fact that black males were not allowed to have the priesthood until 1978. How many members of the Catholic faith have the priesthoood? How many members of your faith have the priesthood? Only the clergymen. Odd, wouldn't that make your faith racist? The LDS church has always allowed blacks to join the church, and have never condoned racism.

[pudgenet]

I didn't state it is a racist church. You are misdirecting your outrage at me.

[elfedzachary]

O'Donnell displays a woeful lack of information as the Mormon disallowed blacks to have the priesthood until 1978, which, by the way, was the same policy in MANY so-called Christian faiths dating back centuries. His comments on Joseph Smith were blatantly false -- Smith ran for President on an anti-slavery platform in 1840. And since when is an actor who plays a part an expert on the part he plays? Why are they giving this guy air time to spew his clearly bigoted views?

[arandomJohn]

Pudge,

For once I agree with you. However I've got to say that Mitt needs to continue to not even attempt to answer questions about Mormonism. The religion is so misunderstood and people are so hyper-charged over it (witness O'Donnell and even yourself on /.) that any attempt to give a nuanced understanding of say, the race issue would take up a lot of time and only lead to a week's worth of inaccurate news about the issue.

[pudgenet]

Except no, I wasn't hypercharged over it, YOU were.

[arandomJohn]

Of course! :)

[privatehigh]

You say Romney did not want to get into theological discussion about his faith then why give speech? Who was he trying to convince when he said that he believes that jejus christ is son of god. Then why is it ok to bring into discussion only things which benefit his campaign? I saw another idiot writing about priesthood and tribes? Really so European ancestry of Mormons connect with Jewish tribes now?

[aiknen]

pudgenet, i think you are not looking at the whole picture here...how can romney's father be a civil rights advocator when in his heart he would have to explain to his fellow black man that he couldnt be a priest of his faith because he was "dark skinned, loathsome and filthy", as it says in the mormon books?

o' donnell had every right to call out romney on his faith because its a matter of concern

[pudgenet]

aiknen: you know what is in either Romney's heart?

Interesting. Where did you acquire this power?

I go by a man's words and deeds. And Governor George Romney's words and deeds were not racist, and neither are Mitt's. As to their hearts, I can't say, but I can't say about your heart either.

[aiknen]

You say you go by a man's words and deeds... romney's father never voiced any outrage on his faith's blatant racist tenets for fear of ostracization ...dont you find it hyprocritical that he didn't practice what he preached?

[pudgenet]

aiknen: on what do you base this claim about what George Romney didn't do?  I think you have none whatsoever, and therefore I won't accept it for consideration unless you provide that basis.

[aiknen]

i base this claim on the fact that mormons cant cherry pick the parts they like & ignore the parts they don't like. both romneys were missionaries & promoted the mormon book which contained its racist propaganda.

out of expedience, the mormon leader in 1978 said he got "instruction from god" to accept black priests... but they were still "cursed". any sane person would find that so offensive if not laughable.

pudget, romney's records speak for itself. defending bigotry is so uncool, trust me.

[pudgenet]

Um. Again, why should I trust you? Yes, Romney's actual record DOES speak for itself, and it isn't one of defending bigotry. You have given no one any reason to trust you, especially since you are clearly making things up that never happened.

[aiknen]

pudgenet: So the fact that romney, as a missionary was promoting the mormon book which explicitly states that blacks are "dark and loathsome and a filthy people" isn't defending bigotry?

Why is your memory so selective?

[pudgenet]

Actually, no, the Book of Mormon is not talking about blacks in that quote.

Again, why should I trust you?

I won't bother responding to you again, because, like Lawrence O'Donnell, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are just on some vendetta against Mormonism. If you want to hate Mormonism, fine, but I just don't care.

[aiknen]

you have no reason to trust me...you put up a video voicing your opinion to the public so i can't understand why you wont reply to my opinion...kinda defeats the purpose of youtube don't you think?

out of interest, i like to know your opinion on why blacks were banned from the priesthood till 1978.

[pudgenet]

You are continually giving false information, and you don't even care.

That is why I will not respond to you.

You are being dishonest.

You are a waste of time to discuss with.

[aiknen]

actually, i do care...i readily admit you are probably more of an authority on mormonism than i am, since i am not one myself.

i was just asking your opinion so i can understand better...i was under the impression that blacks were forbidden the priesthood up till 1978. are you saying that was never the case?

[pudgenet]

I am not a Mormon.  One more thing you got wrong.

[aiknen]

i never assumed you were...i just thought you were probably more knowledgeable since you have dismissed my previous arguements.

i am just asking you if there's any truth about blacks being banned from the priesthood up till 1978? - which coincidentally, was the year i was born.

[AMVVir]

What I've seen of the McLaughlin Group has only been a constant stream of fail.

By the way, didn't Romney say that that he believes in the faith of his fathers, not that he believes in every policy that the LDS had 30 years ago?

[fuddyfoo]

Also, O'Donnell is wrong about the pre-1978 policy. Black people were members of the Church and we believed they were eligible to have all the blessings in the afterlife. The priesthood was not given, true, but there is precedent in ancient times--the priesthood was only given to the tribe of Levi. Are we racist because we think Jews are the chosen people? LDS believe responsibilities descend along the same tribal lines as Abraham.

[fuddyfoo]

Joseph Smith did not believe in Slavery--O'Donnell had no idea what he was talking about. In fact, one of the biggest reasons Mormons were murdered, beaten and otherwise persecuted was because they spoke out AGAINST slavery and people were concerned that if the Mormons had a large enough voting block they would succeed in abolishing it from Missouri, et al.

[HiveRadical]

I sent a video that's a response to O'Donnell, if you don't feel it's appropriate as appearing as a response to your video that's fine. Thought I'd see what you thought and if I might be able to get a bit more coverage of my view.

[psc57a21]

You are so right, O'Donnell is speaking from a place of hate, and is intrested in nothing more than promoting himself and his program on HBO. What is impostant is What kind of person are we electing, what are their values, how will they lean, do they have experience, how do they conduct ther own lives, Pat is also so right, Romeny is a good Christain father, husband and leader, proven by his family and governship of New Hampshire.

[dysko80]

Good to see that some people still recognize bigotry when they see it... even if they don't necisarilly agree with the group the bigot is targeting!

[iniksbane]

That is a great analysis and fair too. It's nice to see someone on the other side of the line isn't ready to launch into the witch hunt.

[vintageyellow71]

Hay PUDGENENT, thanks for your fairness in your comments. I'm mormon and I don't dislike anyone or their faith and never have. It's fair to agree to disagree until one can sit and learn about what one believes. That's if one wants to do that. If not... cool. Were still Americans together. I'd have your back anytime and fellow neighbor. Thanks man

[chupa2020]

Polygomy is not mormon - it is from a church called the FLDS church. O'Donnell is misinformed not only about that but that, but also about blacks. His father was a supporter of Dr. King. O'Donnell showed his complete idiocracy and loss of intellegence. This man knows nothing of Mormonism and I am scared of a country that allows an actor to be viewed as an expert on anything other than pretending to be someone else.

[pudgenet]

No, Mormonism has a long history of polygamy.

Also, O'Donnell was in politics long before Hollywood. He worked for the Senate Democrats in the 90s. He is married to an actress, and has been writing, producing, and acting on a regular basis only since about 2000.

[chupa2020]

Polygamy was outlawed by mormons over 100 years ago. I know O'Donnell has a political background, but he proved his inability to use intellect as opposed to emotion in this outburst. If this was an attack on any other religion (Jewish, etc.) he would have been fired immediately following the airing. I imagine a lot of mormons were offended. I am familiar with the mormon faith and am impressed by their values and pretty damn sick of seeing religious bigots dominate the 2008 political debate

[pudgenet]

O'Donnell never said, or implied, that Mormonism didn't outlaw polygamy a long time ago.

That said, I basically agree with the rest of what you said.

[chupa2020]

Actually he did - he said he played a "Mormon on TV", in Big Love. If a Mormon was to practice polygamy today like they show in Big Love they would lose their membership in their church. He was promoting the idea that polygamy is still part of the mormon religion.

[pudgenet]

i understand that, though they (FLDS folks) still call themselves Mormons, as I understand it, even if the LDS disavows them. Not that I care to argue the point, that's just how I took it, that they consider themselves Mormons. Because let's be frank, most Christians don't consider Mormons Christians, but they call themselves Christians ... so yeah, he probably left a false impression though.

[chupa2020]

I don't think the FLDS folks do not call themselves mormons. In fact, they believe that mormons stopped following God by outlawing polygamy. They have their own prophet that was just found guilty of some kind of child abuse (Warren Jeffs). They even have a different locale. You're right though, not necessarily the point, I'm just tired of the accusations, I try to get more information on the GOP candidates and I feel like all I hear about is the mormon religion.

[gee4ce36]

I don't know why you waste your time and intellect listening to HOLIER THAN THOU liberal candyasses like Laurence O'Donnell. You know liberals have a double standard when it comes to bigotry and racism. Bill Clinton had ancestors who were members of the KKK. Bill Clinton's mentor J. William Fulbright was also a member of the KKK. Hillary has referrred to members of her staff as "JEW Bastards" and she also referrred to former Senator Al D'Amato of New York as "Senator Tomato".

[jonzie25]

IF we take Romeny at his word, there is no reason a biggoted racist can't support civil rights. Personally, I would prefer to vote for someone who I know has personal values in harmony with thier political positions, but perhaps the record is the most important thing when talking about political leaders.

Does that make sense? I'm just throwing out some ideas, and you know I'm no Romeny fan.

[pudgenet]

There's also no reason to assume he is racist.

[HiveRadical]

Look at the article in Wikipedia titled "Blacks and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" or type into google mitt sacred constitution and see my explanation in the comment section of the first article that comes up.

[HiveRadical]

GARBAGE. He doesn't understand the Faith of my Fathers. It's NEVER been racist. NEVER. This man's convictions about my convictions are based on a misunderstanding, a horrible misunderstanding, of Mormonism.

[pudgenet]

Thanks Hive. I am no expert in Mormonism, so I couldn't rebut the specific claims about the church. I only know it is irrational to attack Mitt for his views on race, let alone to attack his father for his views.

[TheFamousStacie]

So all the women who are now ministers, the religions who changed and allow that now are sexist?

[pudgenet]

Yes. Duh!

[TheFamousStacie]

Just clarifying!

[bwbecker65]

Wow you sound like a smart guy PUDGENENT. Will you run for president? If you are a true Cristian like it seem that you think you are then why does it matter what he believed in the 1970's. If he did believe that blacks could not hold the priest hood and could be members (witch is alot like most cristian churches that don't alow women to hold the priest hood)why does matter? Do you believe people can change just like the son of god has taught us? You must be perfect for casting stones?

[PQRSvendetta]

I don't like Mitt Romney, but I am so tired of religion being such a huge part of politics.

[DeRoest]

the religion is really a part of the actual politics. the religion is just for voters, people want to be represented by people with similar values and beliefs.

[PQRSvendetta]

So they should listen to the values and beliefs they have, not what they are assumed to have by their religions.

This video is a more then perfect example...If what you say is the way it works, then Mitt Romney is a racist slave holder.

...

[PQRSvendetta]

Now as I said I don't like Mitt Romney, but hes far form a racist slave holder.

What I'm talking about is the whole idea (because it is only an idea at this point) of separation of Church and State. A man's religion does not at all determine what kind of man he is.