Paul Tracy, Helio Castroneves, 2002 - Pass or Not?

[jamie24cfc]

How far ahead do you need to be to have "completed a pass"? answers on a postcard brian barnfart

Indy Racing League = ruining American Open Wheel Racing since 1994

[AlexMacIsKING]

Yup, 2 TIME Indy 500 winner Helios Castroneves. Paul Tracey won that race and it's to bad the appeal process didn't do it's job

[nintendonerdgoodbad2]

TRACY ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!

[miketharin]

As ESPN states.......you make the call!

From my view its an easy decision. How did PT NOT win this race?

[Destin65]

@miketharin Politics, pure and simple. Kind of reminds me of years ago when Ricky Rudd won Pocono and was found to have used an illegal part. They only slapped him on the wrist with a $5,000 fine and allowed to keep the win. Yet, in the Nationwide race the day before, one of the Sauter boys did the same thing except he was fined 6 figures and forced out of the sport, stripped of all finishes and drivers points for the very same infraction. Fair is determined by the owners of the sport.

[kyankees07]

@RealRunner7

Wheldon made the pass under green. The yellow came out just afterwards.

[TheCarlsonsRaiders]

Tracy was side by side with Castroneves as the crash occurred, and had already started to pull ahead when the yellow came on. The pass was made before they went full course caution, thereby he should have kept the lead. Fucking IRL never gets anything right, CART for life.

[moggoon]

So who actually got the place once everything was sorted out? And if Tracy was done for overtaking, what happened to him?

[AlmsAudi1]

Clearly Tracy gets fukcd over again

[tj0099]

says it all...thats all I got to say....

[FrodothePuppet]

@infantryofficer When did I say we need to get rid of all ovals? IndyCar just needs to ditch ISC. Brazil and St. Pete were entertaining races. I appreciate street course racing because I also enjoy F1 and have a long attention span.

Only 8 non-ISC ovals are sensible for IndyCars, if we are to see 50/50: Gateway, Indy, Iowa, Motegi, Kentucky, NH, Texas, and Vegas.

History is what it is; I haven't tried to revise it. Why hate a person who enjoys great racing? Try watching CART archives.

[FrodothePuppet]

@infantryofficer Oh, the terrible road and street courses! Do you know who owns most of the oval tracks in the US? ISC (aka NA$CAR). Do you think they want IndyCar to make a comeback? Hell no! Did you notice that the Kansas 300 was on SATURDAY while the damn TRUCKS ran on Sunday? Slap in the face! It's time to leave the ISC tracks. Where else can IndyCar go to thrive (where NA$CAR can't screw them over)? Road and street courses. The only one they own is the Glen, but that race seems secure.

[FrodothePuppet]

@infantryofficer And how well were the IRL doing with a bunch of no-name Americans (CART had Unser, Andretti, Rahal, Vasser, etc), only ovals (no variety), and flatulent stock blocks? They sounded like NA$CAR engines on expresso (or crack). If anything, THAT was "Chump Car".

TG has yet to apologise for derailing IndyCar racing. If his idea was better, then why has the IRL become CART-lite? Even if most of that was influenced by the former CART teams, it's simply survival of the fittest.

[xobrentox]

People really don't take to kindly to the idea that Paul Tracy won. Even though he should have.

[PeterMayer]

It has been shown that Tracy was ahead of Helio before the yellow came out. Now to what degree, I'm not sure. Did he clear the car?

[Franchitti0709]

No way. That wasTracy's race. He got screwed overbig time. As far as I'm concerned, Helio has won exactly 2 Indianapolis 500s, not 3.

[FrodothePuppet]

Some clear thinking that that schmuck.

"There's no question that Castroneves was ahead of Tracy", followed by "(the yellow light) is difficult to pick out" and "you make the call, it's your judgement".

I have never seen a photograph or video that shows either Helio or Paul clearly ahead of the other. The IRL had to chose Team Penske over Team Green to save the embarassment of 3 straight ass-whoopings from the CART contingent!

[hybanks2000]

exacty brian barnhart is the worst thing to ever happen to racing

[bduddy55555]

Did you even listen to the video? He said there was no question Castroneves was ahead before they entered the turn...

Also, the IRL's decision was that the caution had been declared, the flag thrown, etc. before the light came on. I think that might be possible-the lights flash on and off even when they're activated, so someone might have hit the switch and the light didn't come on right away...

[wawwwaaa]

Paul won...well not technically

[ENGLANDNEWENGLAND007]

Paul Tracy Won

[2014cwajts71]

Helio won it. That's obvious. I still have the recording of the live telecast in real time, no delay. No doubt, helio won.

[nofenders69]

go back and look at what happened in 81 with bobby unser and mario, same bullshit where the ims came down on the side of their "buddy" and avoid the black eye of changing the winner after the race had been run. tracy had at least pulled alongside helio when the crash happened, and that would have to be the fastest reaction to immediateley go to yellow within hundredths of a second. tracy won, but because of the irl/cart war, the irl didn't want another 500 going to a cart guy.

[66612345678]

Winning the 500 on yellow. What a joke.

[demasrv]

Paul Tracy DEFINITELY won that race but he's back this year for blood.

[leafsrule1990]

i hate helio castroneves he is such a joke paul tracy won that race

[finlandia420]

Pretty much. Penske buys his wins in the IRL.

[fatpat1823]

it was a pass. just shows how much better champ car drivers are than people that lie on there taxes

[apm78229]

In the end, Tracy lost the appeal because Tony said the result couldn't be appealed. It really doesn't matter when the crash happen vs. when the light came on vs. where the timing line is. If an IRL-lifer like Scott Sharp had made this pass of Helio I'm willing to bet the appeal would have been decided differently.

[rockypc24]

pt was ahead clearly congarts paul tracey the 2002 indy 500 champion

[jmdaz]

tony george didnt want ANOTHER cart driver winning, so he screwed paul tracy. PT won in 2002, regardless of what the record books show

[millerfresh4]

I don't think you can really see the light switch from green to yellow.

It was very, very close (it happened right in front of me) but I feel that the right call was made

[afannell]

Paul Tracy was ROBBED!! PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!

[hash626]

helio won because he was an irl full timer at that time. tony george didn't want a non irl driver to win his race for the third year in a row

[nezy37]

thats all there is to say about that.

Thank you Tony for ruining racing in the states.

Today I had to watch qualifying on VS.

sad

[easleyrider]

Even more sad......I didn't get to watch qualifying or any other races this year because its on VS. Dont have that channel.

[hash626]

according to this video it sure looks like tracy is ahead. But what is the official rule about the beginning of a yellow? Is it when the lights by the track turn on or something else? if it's the lights then tracy is the winner no doubt, in that still frame tracy's car is definitely ahead

[daddydawg]

IRL BLEW IIT

[penske13]

as much as i like tracy his 500 mile record is awful....he's never won a single event. i somehow couldn't let myself be surprised that this one would turn out any different.

[jamespic]

Just Like The Rules In NASCAR!!!!!

[rockypc24]

agreed

[Rivelution]

As much as I hate Tracy, I think he got this win robbed from him.

[jsandersindy1]

I was there that day. I sat right around the whole controversey. Although PT was close, he NEVER should have won that race. Helio was clearly in front.

[xobrentox]

To be honest I am a way bigger fan of Helio than I am of PT, but PT totally won this race, and the officials took it away from him.

[Dimage25]

I think the question is't if the pass was completed when the yellow light begann to flash. In the moment in which racecontrol descided to bring out the yellow flag they froze the order and Castroneves was in front of Tracy. In the picture it's obious that as the yellow ligth began to flash Tracy was a nose in front of Helio. So it's kind of a critical thing to descide.

[icehammer97]

The probalem with that thinking is that back in 2002 the rules said the field is frozen when the light goes on not when it is decided to go yellow. The IRL changed the rule after the race and still used it to decide who won. I had the great pleasue of talking to PT parents at Cleveland the year after this happened and the explination they were given by the IRL was that PT was ahead but since he was on the outside had more distance between him and S/F and that is why he "lost". Which is total BS

[chapparrel]

Thats great the someone DECIDED who won. Your an IDIOT. Its plain as day Tracy won. Tracy not only made the pass before the light went yellow but ahead before he entered the turn.

Any moron who says Tracy lost because they dont like him or he didn't deserve it, it just a loser.

Tracy won, Helio lost

[djv2448]

like Tracys team sed those IRL guys didnt want a CART guy to win F.N BS Tracy won it shoulld have been just frozen there no controversy give it to the CART Guy

[AutoRacer5]

If they didn't want a CART guy to win, then why didn't they flub the inspections for Montoya's car in 2000 or Helio's car in 2001?

You fail.

[djv2448]

gee uh cuz they were Clearly ahead and there was no Possible way to take it away from them Tracy however is so Friggen Controverial they prolly thaought it was bad for te Sport

[AutoRacer5]

two words:

tech inspection

[penske13]

well think about it man...since the split how many i.r.l. regulars had won the 500 when c.a.r.t. regulars were competing in it? you got lazier in 96, luyendyk in 97, cheever in 98, brack in 99 and montoya in 00. arie was a c.a.r.t. regular on year removed and montoya did the one off and won the race. then you have helio going to his first appearence and wins it. c.a.r.t. regulars were kicking the i.r.l. guys asses and now they are moments away from doing for the 3rd consecutive year........na.

[doctorindy]

Total nonesense. In this video, Tracy's car isn't parallel to Helio until 0:12. They are well into turn 3.

T&S showed Helio 0.0376 sec ahead at the end-of-backstrech scoring line. Tracy even admitted that. Tracy & Green went into the court hearing providing almost nothing to make their case.

One rarely seen photo from the mainstrech shows a flag already out at the pit-in with Helio ahead.

Sorry CARTheads...Helio won.

[doctorindy]

Clearly you have NEVER read the entire Appeals hearing documents. Some of us actually know what we're talking about. Unlike YOU.

Barry Green argued that the yellow light IN TURN THREE didn't come one immediately at the onset of the caution period. And he argued that that light ALONE should "control." According to the rules at the time, ANY yellow light around the track "controls." It was known at the time that the lights might have been inconsistent, but ANY yellow light on negates the pass

[doctorindy]

Further, Team Green actually admitted from their examination of the telemetry that Helio's in-car yellow light DID come on before the pass. They basically argued against their own case.

That alone could be used to seal the win. Again, ANY yellow light (including on-board lights) illuminated "on" meant yellow.

[doctorindy]

Finally, Team Green admitted the "yellow flag to close the pits" photo existed. It was published, and it's available. It's no lie. it is hard to find, but it's out there.

[pewtoobe]

The real issue was who OWNS IMS/IRL & how much money was Penske and a Helio repeat worth to TJ versus how much an "outsider" CART team was worth. Before R.P. bailed for big bucks, you IRLbots weren't paying attention when Penske's guys were crashing out Paul and the foreigners running CART kept siding with Roger, to the point that they even fined Paul $50k for complaining that Chief Steward Wally never cracked down on Penske drivers. There's TWO sides of every story & Some have to CHEAT to win.

[Destin65]

@doctorindy You don't know much about racing do you? Fact, race control throws the lights on. They all come on at the same time. They are not, and never have been, a staggered arrangement as you are claiming. Let me ask you this Mr. Motorsports, is the flag the final arbiter or not? And does the flagman have to keep waving the flag until all the cars go past or can he put the flag down after the first car is notified?

[mustang6172]

@Destin65 Sorry Destin85, but in Indycar, the flagman controls the lights.

[Destin65]

@mustang6172 That ain't what the rules state at the beginning of the video. It sounds like you are stating that the flagman deliberately waited in turning on the lights? That is tantamount to deliberate cheating. The purpose of the lights is to tell the drivers there is a caution and is turned on by RACE CONTROL and not the flagman. The lights were actually on prior to the flag waving.

[mustang6172]

@Destin65 That's been the rule since 1997 when the flagman showed green and white while race control kept the yellow lights on. watch?v=vq8BC1PSxj8

[Destin65]

@mustang6172 Sounds like they haven't been following the rules since 1997, did you even watch the race? How much is Tony George paying you to defend his decision to overrule the rulebook?

[pnutbutrncrackers]

@doctorindy

Look. Super-close, unsatisfyingly ambiguous ending to the 500 (in my book). If I had to pick the winner, I'd probably go w/Helio too. In reference to the "rarely seen photo" you mention, can you direct me to where it can be viewed? Thanks.

[doctorindy]

@pnutbutrncrackers

Though most won't believe it, the photo was used during the appeals hearing. It was taken from the frontstrech, from the photo stand, by a private photographer, on top of the Paddock Penthouse roof. The appeal documents even mention it. Unfortunately, some involved have not been very cooperative in releasing their material. There is at least one other video angle that captured the 'pass.' They're taking the copyright thing to the extreme. I consider it unnecessary.

[pnutbutrncrackers]

@doctorindy

Ok, well, I believe you (about the photo), as you seem well-informed on the topic. Maybe I'll see it one day. The question I then have is why, if indeed the photograph is fairly definitive, does Tracy continue to claim (even recently) that he believes he really won the '02 Indy. I hope this doesn't reflect negatively on his character.

On the positive side, I have agreed w/Tracy's criticisms of Milka Duno.

[chapparrel]

Tracy not only won, but was ahead before they entered the turn. This was a royal ass fuck.

[vuetube]

Yellow Caution? Oh yeah! I SEE IT! Right below the Alien that exited the UFO that caused the accident! The ONLY thing that mattered is that the Teams, Including Owners & Drivers signed documents stating Brian Barnhardt and the IRL has the final say in any disputes and releasing liability, which is why Team Cool Green decided not to sue. Besides do you know how much money the IRL spent so we could watch the Twinkle-Toes the monkey climb the fence the 2nd year in a row!

[JoeytheHDK]

Paul Tracy won the 2002 Indy 500.

[greatassistant]

PT never won nothing, cause he never deserve. just a crasher driver.

[Litch2]

That should make Michael Andretti never deserve anything too, because he was just a whining driver who never won at Indy. As for the the video, it's without question Tracy was infront, there were a couple other drivers that said the pass was completed before the yellow light on their dash came on. Theres not much you can change 5 years on however and this will be debated just as much as Mario and Bobby Unser's finish.

[greatassistant]

just my opinion, dont be ungry.