Bach - Musicalisches Opfer - 1. Ricercar A 3

[MYTHIRDSHADOW]

No good. This guy just hacks out the notes giving no respect to the original intention of this piece. Too fast also. I've heard computers play this better. this guy just needs to stop. please.

[VERITS99]

@MYTHIRDSHADOW Too fast? Are you aware that Anna Magdalena and Carl Phillip Emanuel (independently) gave the same testimony that JSB played rather fast?

[MYTHIRDSHADOW]

@VERITS99 yes! lol... Its just that I have heard it played just a tad bit slower and I do favor what I have heard previously. I come off a bit harsh, I know, I just don't know how to hold back. I stil think hes thumping out the notes with no sensitivity. take care.

[krallja]

@MYTHIRDSHADOW Basic harpsichords do not have dynamics (variations in loudness), so the only thing a player can control is the length of a note. Perhaps you have heard it played on a piano, where the performer was able to add dynamics to the piece?

[verdi0381]

When I hear Bach, the moment that universe was created, is make music

[srbiruga]

this is my favorite fugue of all times, i don't care if its a ricercar!

[chrish12345]

@srbiruga sorry I don't understand, are you saying that the name Ricercare should preclude this piece?

[fagottist]

i've been there

[PimpinBassie2]

Wrong instrument! This is one of the few pieces Bach composed for piano.

[JupiterIV]

But the piano sounded exactly like a harpsichord when it was first invented.

[vonspre]

@PimpinBassie2

fortepiano

[chrish12345]

too many silly trills in my opinion, otherwise, excellent

[zstadt]

Wow...

[wandalewlandowska]

PS - I ought to have mentioned that my previous comments were in response to the question of "how can you know if this is too fast?".  A very good question and one which is not discussed often enough. Beautiful addition to Youtube. Thank you!

[wandalewlandowska]

Metre and fastest running notes (not of an ornamental nature) provide a range of tempi based upon a norm understood in Bach's time. Kirnberger's esplanation of metre and note-groups is eloquently explained in his invaluable book, "The Art of Strict Musical Composition" (Yale Univ. Press) Since Kirnberger was a student of Bach and even uses Bach's music as examples of speed and pulse, he is an invaluable resource.

[wcbroccoli]

Of course one should never play so fast that the running notes cannot be played correctly, or so slow that the music drags.

One of Bach's sons said his father like to play fast "like the wind". His observation suggests that some of Bach's contemporaries people preferred to play more slowly.

[wandalewlandowska]

Yes, wcbroccoli, Bach clearly played at a faster tempo than Quantz and Kirnberger's instructions suggest. Several contemporary references describe JSB's tempi as "fast". Clearly, Bach was not concerned about fastest running note groups and their range of tempi!

[chrish12345]

Has anyone ever noticed how Bach quotes his own D minor fugue from the 2nd book of the Well Tempered Clavier in this piece - he obviously recognized how the 2 themes were similar both melodically and in terms of the chromatic line.

[wcbroccoli]

Some of the triplet passages in this fugue resemble the 1st half of the WTC2 fugue.

And the subjects of both fugues descend chromatically from a high note.

But the descending chromatic passages in this fugue's episodes are simply allusions to the descending chromatic scale in king's subject.

It is common in the course of a fugue, esp. in episodes, to develop motifs derived from the subject or from counterpoints that accompany the subject.

[chrish12345]

'Some of the triplet passages.....' - You mean the fugue subject I think.

'But the descending chromatic passages in.....' - I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but if you mean that he doesn't (often) bring back the whole theme during the course of the piece, this is clearly wrong.

'It is common in the course of a fugue...' - Bach does this in this piece too, and in his other fugues invariably develops the subject itself.

[wcbroccoli]

There are no triplets in the subject of this ricercar; the triplets appear in episodes (e.g., 1:10, 3:50) and accompanying the subject (e.g., 1:24) and in the subject of the d-minor fugue from WTC2.

You must distinguish between expositions of the subject (with or without answer) and episodes between expositions. By definition, the subject does not appear in episodes.

[wcbroccoli]

Not sure what you mean by "in his other fugues invariably develops the subject itself." How so?

Through modulatory episodes? That the usual way.

Or by stretto, inversion, diminution, or augmentation? Not all subjects, including the King's theme, lend themselves to such full treatment. He does suggest stretto in some places, by partial statement of the subject. And he uses the subject's descending chromatic scale as a point of imitation in episodes.

[chrish12345]

The Riceracre thing I think comes from the fact that Bach was basing the fugues on the one theme and using it to create 2 completely difrerent pieces. Also the antiquated nature of the word could relate directly to the style of the 6-part fugue. As I said, I think its basically wrong to say that Bach's use of thematic material is any different in these 2 works than anywhere else.

[wcbroccoli]

By definition, all fugues have at least one subject (i.e, theme).

Art of the Fugue uses the same subject, or variants of the subject in 14 fugues, and also in several canons.

The ricercars in MO are indistinguishable from fugues.

He inscribed MO with the words "Regis Iussu Cantio Et Reliqua Canonica Arte Resoluta" (by the king's command, the song and the rest resolved in canonic style). The 1st letters on the inscription spell RICERCAR, an old term for fugue.

[Stehnz]

a ricercar has a deeper and longer subject (note value) than your random fugue.

it's not totally the same thing.

[wcbroccoli]

@Stehnz I don't agree. Ricercar is a term that dates back to the Renaissance. Some subjects in what Bach calls fugues in WTC appear as subjects in Renaissance ricercars. Many Renaissance ricercars have short subjects. Many Bach fugues have long subjects with long notes. "Deeper" subject? By using the term "ricercar", Bach alludes to motet style.

[wcbroccoli]

In a letter by Bach to his cousin, Bach writes: "I cannot oblige you at present with the desired copy of the Prussian Fugue [from the Musical offering], the edition having been exhausted just today."

As you can see, even Bach calls it a fugue!

[Stehnz]

Yep I know that ricercar evolved to fugue, but what I mean is if you compose a ricercar 100+ years after the renaissance, you should end up with long and deep, slow and majestic fugue. also, you're right about the motet.

I'm not sure about the "deeper" as I'm not english. What I mean in french is "grave".

[wcbroccoli]

@Stehnz Let's not forget that the subject of Bach's Musical Offering was provided by King Frederick, who intended it as a fugue subject.

[agranero6]

@wcbroccoli In fact the subject was chosen to make it difficult or even impossible to write a canon or fugue. The younger people at that time found polyphony out of date, even his son Carl Philip Emanuel that worked for Frederick. The 4 part was played by the older Bach right there and the five part was written later and sent to Frederick.

[wcbroccoli]

@agranero6 Surely Bach recognized that the elements of the royal theme were derived from 2 conventional subject motifs frequently found in imitative keyboard pieces:

(1) The harmonic pattern (the chords C-Eb-G and B-D-F-Ab) found in works of Froberger, Pachelbel, Bach and others. See fugue subjects of BWV 534, 537, 546, 861 & 889.

(2) The traditional lament motif, represented by the descending chromatic tetrachord.

[wcbroccoli]

@agranero6 So in its basic form the royal theme is (1) C Eb G Ab B plus (2) G F# F E Eb D C as I outlined above..

Bach himself may have inserted (a) the 1/8th note rest as he had done in the fugue subject of BWV 867) and (b) the acceleration, introduced by a suspension, that dips down to the 4th degree, as he had done in the fugue subject of BWV 878.

[wcbroccoli]

@agranero6 How does canon enter into this? The king asked Bach to improvise a fugue, not a canon.

The king, himself a well-informed musician, gave Bach a subject derived by joining 2 traditional types of fugue theme.

The king asked Bach to improvise a fugue. A fugue is by definition polyphonic.

Bach improvised a 3-part fugue (not 4-part) on the royal theme and a 6-part fugue on a theme of his own choosing. He later composed a 6-part fugue (not 5-part) on the royal theme.

[wcbroccoli]

@agranero6 The 3-part ricercar heard here is Bach's worked-out version of the fugue he improvised as the king's request. It develops and expands typical motivic elements of the galant and empfindsamer style that was popular with the younger generation (including Bach's sons) in unusually long interludes.

Bach knew all the styles of his day.

The king's own musical tastes were strongly influenced by Italian opera,

[wcbroccoli]

@Stehnz Renaissance ricercars are not all grave. Many are quite lively and rhythmically complex.

[wcbroccoli]

@Stehnz Gottfried van Swieten reports on King Frederick's recollection of Bach's visit: "[The King] sang aloud a chromatic fugue subject that he had given this old Bach, who on the spot had made of it a fugue in 4 parts, then is 5 parts, and finally in 8 parts." Note that he calls the King's theme a "chromatic fugue subject", not a "chromatic ricercar subject."

[canman5060]

The six part ricercar, one of the most complex , is even more exiting !

[chrish12345]

no this is the exciting one, the other one is more dense and complicated

[wcbroccoli]

And that makes the 6-parter more exciting!

[juancho39]

frederick the great owns!

[Terrdemarzielle]

Although some people think C.P.E Bach wrote the theme. Either way, J.S kinda owns everyone.

[wandalewlandowska]

Terrdemarzielle,

Yes, Sebastian does indeed "own" everyone (love that expression, recently taught to me by my grandson) and I have always thought CPE wrote the theme. Fredric wasn't able to create a theme with boundless possibilities. I have never read this opinion elsewhere, and am glad to read that others have thought as I.

[wcbroccoli]

Just how does Frederick "own"?

[oncucar]

Regis Iussu Cantio Et Canonica Arte Resoluta

[shalimarite]

Frederick II of Prussia reputedly sang the opening theme of this work to Bach; Bach imediately improvised this ricercar upon the theme. The next day, May 8th, 1747 (Life Day for 18th century Berliners), Bach supposedly improvised a 6-part (!!) ricercar on the organ in the Church of the Holy Ghost.

[wcbroccoli]

2 mos. AFTER that meeting (documented in newspapers), Bach wrote in a dedication to the King, dated July 7, 1747: "I still remember [when you] deigned to play to me a theme for a fugue upon the clavier, and at the same time charged me to carry it out...I noticed very soon...that for lack of preparation, the execution of the task did not fare as well as such an excellent theme demanded. I resolved...to work out this right Royal theme more fully...This resolve has now been carried out..."

[wcbroccoli]

According to Bach, the King played it on the clavier.

[jse36]

too fast

[shalimarite]

I feel that your mom is too fast.

[shalimarite]

Please forgive my outburst jse36

[Keytaster]

how can you know if this is too fast... asked Bach? *g*

[canman5060]

There is no tempo marking on this work in the original score. It is entirely up to individual performer.

[chrish12345]

er yes, to try and make an educated judgement...

[wcbroccoli]

The tempo sounds just right to me.

[yvan7583]

Excellent

[Daripa1]

Truly awesome.

[aloohparatha]

Am Morgen stehe ich auf. Zuerst gehe ich immer auf die Toilette (oder auf das Klo). Dann trinke ich Wasser und finde etwas zu essen: hinaus mit dem alten, herein mit dem neuen. Beim essen, sehe ich ein bisschen Fern. Dann gehe ich in das Badezimmer. Ich rasiere mich. Ich steige in die Dusche. Ich dusche mich. Ich steige mich aus der Dusche und trockne mich ab. Dann ziehe mich an und beeile mich zur Arbeit.

[Keytaster]

???