2008 Debate: U.S. Health Care

[1dschamp]

Americans are too weak minded to do anything about this issue. You've failed for 30 odd years, no chance of change now.

[gipcambero]

Search FRENCH Healthcare on Youtube

[hadenufnow]

Dingy Harry: Public Enemy Number One:

Senate HC BIll has something for everyone:

$500,000,000,000 BILLION in Medicare Cuts to KIll, Old People Control, Abortion Control, Gun Control, Punitive Illegal Exorbident Taxes, Punitive Fees, Punitive Denial of Access to Millions of Poor, Punitive Restricted Access to Helth Care, Long Lethal Delays in Treatment, Expensive Wasteful Burocracy, Skyrocketing Costs, & Record Breaking Intrusion..

Where is the Health Care?

Kill the bill

nobody wants it....

[ulpdy0]

You have FAILED in every "government service" you have shoved down our throats while overspending our tax dollars AND YOU WANT AMERICANS TO BELIEVE YOU CAN BE TRUSTED WITH A GOVERNMENT-RUN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM??

[assym2006]

@ulpdy0

it has worked here in the UK for the past 60 years and still works. (don't believe all that death board rubbish)

[mb0185646]

No offense, but someone at work said to me, "Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are simply a bitch and nigger whining over who gets to be the first of their kind to be president."

[enddebtslavery]

don't listen to all the scaremongering about the NHS in the UK, we all moan about it or we did until we realised how bad it is in the US. Every human being should be entitled to help and healthcare free when they need it, come on america when will you realise your politicians run around looking after your corporations.

[regelemihai]

How is it free??

[enddebtslavery]

well we pay 'national insurance' during our working lives so its not entirely free, but children, pensioners, the unemployed and the disabled among others do not have to worry about paying for care or treatment when they need it and as far as i'm concerned thats the way it should be. its not perfect but i wouldn't swap it.

[regelemihai]

The old and the poor have government mandated healthcare programs in the USA too. Medicare and Medicade. Mnay many many are eligeble but imply don't apply.

Personally, I don't think it should be enforced via socialism, but I'm glad you're reasonable in your approach and response.

[85vigor]

The biggest problem is about the insured people, who still not get paied for everything. This should not be happening. I mean you are paying for having insurance but many still don't get payed for important treatment. These are horrible conditions to me. I am from Germany and since I started getting into the American healt care system I stopped complaining about ours.. I don't have to worry about being sick and who is going to pay for it... You should fight for a change! It is worth it!

[nakedleader]

I am an Australian and we complain about our healthcare system but having also lived in the US for 9 years I can tell you the US needs a govt run system, as a choice. Our system is simple. You can choose public or private. My Mum just had a heart attack and had a pacemaker installed in a public hospital. No fuss, superb care no waiting and no costs.

[BlackOpPython]

Im Canadian and at least I have the comfort of knowing should something happen to me and my family... we DONT have to worry about any costs... ITS COVERED... PAYED FOR !

[ForTehNguyen]

no youre just worried about how long youll have to wait to get treatment. But waiting is better than paying for it right.

One of your chief architects of your system totally hated any privatization of healthcare, yet when she got breast cancer guess where she went. She flew to the UCLA in the US to get treatment. Even your politicians that shove that program down your throats wont play in the same game they force everyone else into.

[ForTehNguyen]

if rationing isnt occuring why are canadians going to the US to the Mayo Clinic to get care and not vice versa

[classicallady]

Wake up trollForTehNguyen...that owman has already been rebutted as a farsant, paid by the Big-Pharma...Google it and stop ebarassing yourself

[ikerbeast666]

healt is a rigth. making business with it is a fascist idea,

P.D long live to socialism tobarichys!!!!!!^^

[ikerbeast666]

the U.S is the ONLY democritic western country withOUT a gobernamental heath care..

P.D long live to the stupid neo-liberal totalitarism

[ForTehNguyen]

Medicare spending per patient has grown faster than private spending per patient. For anyone to think that govt will "save" money is a joke. If UHC was really about lowering costs wtf does it cost money?

[ForTehNguyen]

out of this 45 million uninsured:

10-15 million are illegals

14 million are eligible for Medicare but havent enrolled

10 million make 3-4x+ the poverty level but probably dont want to pay for it

whats the problem again?

[wordfo1]

the fat fuck said himself medicare dont get done??? who runs medicare??? the government so y in the hell should i expect them to pay for everybody's?? health and get it right???

[yanni5]

ron pauls plan is better than them both

[raywzup]

I've made my choice. I support Ron Paul and the Free Market solution such as Health Savings Account (HSA) that works like a 401(k) account. I get to keep my money I worked for tax-free and I'll use it on the choice of doctors and treatment I see fit. No government is going to play doctor and tell me what my choices are. If I pay the bills, the medical industry will have to fight for my business and that's the only way cost will come down while quality goes up.

[jestoninnes]

While I love Ron Paul. The free market cant deal with health care. Its a matter of economics. Medical care is a necessity, with no substitutes, lots of costs, and a very inelastic demand. As such it attracts oligopolies, which act like cartels and push the cost far beyond equilibrium. They can create barriers of entry and sustain them because of the overwhelming profits that can be made.

[jestoninnes]

Typically universal healthcare puts more power in doctors hands not less. For example in Canada you chose your doctor, he chooses your specialists, who chose you treatment. If I dont like the specialist and treatment I just tell the doctor who will likely change them because if he doesnt I will just chose another doctor. In private healthcare the doctor has to worry about cost restraints.

[jestoninnes]

Finally private health care has the worst cost to quality ratio. In America you pay more than twice what a Canadian pays and receive worse treatment.

[ForTehNguyen]

Canada has a hard cap on their healthcare budget thats why it wont go above 10% GDP. The argument that Canadians pay less overall is a lowsy one. Remove that cap and watch it be just like the US. The bad thing about the cap is that going to scream rationing. Hence why you have to wait 18 weeks for crap.

[jestoninnes]

Thats complete bullshit. In 2007 the Helathcare cost in Canada was 10.6% of GDP. Lol. We have price caps but they are issued on a case by case basis. The average wait time for surgery or to see a specicialist is 4 weeks. Americans despite thier high costs would have similuar problem if they covered all thier population. Canada has 2.1 doctors per 1000 people and the US has 2.3 per 1000 people. It is common progaganda that rationing occurs. Its not rationing its triage.

[jestoninnes]

THat stupid 18 week statistic was given by the fraser insitute the same insitute that said somking isn't bad for you. I can even count the number of times thay have been completely debunked. Also thats for a whole process from deciding to see a doctor to referal to a specailist to surgery. And its at complete odds with every other study. Do me favor and check your sources creditablility before you spew nonsense.

[Yuber779]

we need a healthcare reform, that's true. But not something run by the government. Usually government and missmanagement go hand in hand. of course your going to find people that are uninsured in this country, were a diverse society. It is something that this liberal morons don't understand.

[jestoninnes]

I think its something you dont understand currently 16% of the population has no coverage and Medicaid covers 15% of the population. So thats 31% that cant afford coverage. Thats nearly 1 in 3 people. Also if you look abroad you will find numerous examples of universal healthcare is successful. In Canada we pay less than half what you pay and receive better treatment. Polls have shown that 57% of Canadians rate our healthcare as excellent, 33% as good and only 10% as fair or poor.

[jestoninnes]

In America I can guarantee 31% rate your system as poor. The thing about universal healthcare is that it has little or no overhead costs. Everyone has coverage and all coverage is the same. Doctors bill the government just like in private and the governments only job is to pay those bills.

[regelemihai]

The typical myth has yet to be dispatched. Out of that 16%(which I doubt, btw) a third of that population earns more than 70,000$ a year, the other third 50,000$, and another chunk is compiled out of illegals.

Also, if "better treatment" consists of having less doctors, a more primitive technology, and long waiting lists, then it sure as hell beats ours.

[jestoninnes]

It does beat yours. In fact almost every study out there has found the Canadain healthcare system far better than the US.

As far as less doctors we actually have 25% more GPs per capita then the US and more nurses. The long waitlist can be easily explained as recieving more treatment a study by Havard found that Canadians fill more prescriptions, have more surgery, have more doctors visits, and see more specialist per capita then americians.

[jestoninnes]

And we have less of the same technology its not more primitive. Also a study was done to find out how much more Canadains would have to pay each as a one time cost in order to have as many MRI and CT per million people. The answer was just over $50 per capita. And since Americains pay nearly double a $50 increase is nothing. The Canadain government has already started moving in this direction the last budget had 400 million allocated to the purchase of this kind of technology.

[jestoninnes]

Lastly just because some people who could afford insurance don't have it means nothing. Here are some statistic for you over 1 million americans go bankrupt a year of those 75% were insured, 50% had a college education and a home. So rich or poor, insured or uninsured you are still at the complete mercy of the profiteering healthcare industry currently idealized in the US.

[regelemihai]

How typical. the profiteering evil bloodsuckers who benefit from the ppl. Actually, as much as you get an adrenaline rush downplaying profit making(as if it's crime), the situation is a lot less convenient and complicated. The gov. together with corporations are driving costs up, it's not the free market's fault. If a healthcare reform was passed, something along the lines that Ron Paul wanted, it would've been a lot cheaper.

Also, you have a shortage in doctors, despite what you said...

[regelemihai]

...according to the CBC in 2003 alone more than 1.2 million Canadians were unable to find a regular physicisn. Lol. Will you appeal to emotion with that too? Or maybe this number isn't a "percentage of the population" either?

As for the rest of the bunk, in 2002 Canada had less doctors per capita (not more) than any other country with universal healthcare.

You have less medical school admissions, and the shortage that needs to be filled by foreign labor will decrease exponentially by 2015.

[jestoninnes]

First of all I am canadian I don't believe everything I hear on TV I research it Myself. I bet you listen to fox news tooo.. Lol. Second even if this was true it pales in comparision to the 50 million americians without health insurance who wont have a GP. Again we have more GPs per capita so I can guarntee it harder to get a GP in the US.

The fact we have less doctor than any other country with universal healthcare only show the Northamerican shortage. lol.

[regelemihai]

50 million? Listen buddy, if Fox News is a source of biased information then be sure yours in Canada is not only extreme leftists but dishonest and propagandistic to the extreme. The typical number that's flug around is 40 ,illion and even that is a gross misstatement as I've alreay pointed out.

Nortamerican shortage? That's your answer? No wonder you lol all the time...

[jestoninnes]

Teh US Census Bureau lists it as 45 million. And just because Some should be able to afford insurance doesn't mean they either have or even can get it. You try to qualify for full insurance with a preexisting condition. I wont be the only one loling it will be the insurance company loling aat you.

Yes a North Americain Shortage of Doctors. Putting a question mark behind it doesn't dismiss the statistical data i presented you with which clearly shows that it is a North Americian shortage.

[regelemihai]

America sure as hell doesn't have a shortage :-) Don't forget that the US population also stands at over 300 million while yours isn't half of that.

The US Census Bureau also states,as I have,that 8.3 million out of that number make between 50K-75K a year but simply choose not to enroll,9 million make more than 75K, and a solid 10 million are ILLEGALS.Not t mention the others who eligible for Medicare and Medicaid but don't apply.

Put your own spin if you wish, but come off your high horse.

[jestoninnes]

The US Census Bureau makes no mention of illegals you liar. It would be illegal for them to do so. Also this ten million number is non citzens not illegals. This means they are their on a visa or whatever. There are levels of citizenship.

[jestoninnes]

I give you credible statistics showing that America has a shortage of doctors and that it has no where near the OECD average and you reply with this.

"America sure as hell doesn't have a shortage :-) Don't forget that the US population also stands at over 300 million while yours isn't half of that"

Its a per capita number. The size of your population doesn't matter. Do you honestly think that since you have more people that each doctor can treat more people each. Yeah I guess you would.

[jestoninnes]

"You have less medical school admissions, and the shortage that needs to be filled by foreign labor will decrease exponentially by 2015"

So then by your own words we should be fine by 2015. Hmmm.... I think you got confused. Besides this does mean less doctors as a percentage of the working population it actualy is related to the retiring of the largest demographic the Babyboomers. But Again your to dumb or ignorant to understand that. Lol.

[regelemihai]

Says the guy who communicates like a 17 year old cheerleader by thinking that if he slams an occasional "lol" he manages to intimidate. Also, ad hominems display a lack of confidence and security ;) Logical fallacies are bad for your soul.

And as for my comment, yes...I meant *increase, not decrease. My bad.

[jestoninnes]

You should be intimidated I have destroyed every bullshit argument you have thrown at me. The truth is I have proven repeatedly that you don't know what your talking about but rather believe some bullshit propaganda pushed by the Americian media.

[regelemihai]

YAWN...More appeals to emotion and ad hominems please. I told you they give you the necessary boost and make you think you made any point whatsoever. This is evident by you concedeing why I said previously.

I dunno how you "destroyed" anything. I commented on several other outright erroneous comments since yesterday.

[jestoninnes]

What? the difference in the number of Doctors in Canada in the US is marginal. 2.1 per thousand vs 2.3. While in Germany they have 3.4 and France 3.37. According to nationmaster. Its a North americian shortage. Lol. And again we have more GP's and more nurses.

The problem is that the demand for health is inelastic this makes it possible for companies to form cartels and create substainable barriers of entry. Mean that equilibirum is never met. This is where the goverment can help.

[jestoninnes]

By creating pricecaps set above equilibrium the government can prevent profiteering with out adversally effecting competition.

[regelemihai]

Huh? medical school enrollment has been restricted to the point that Canada needs 26,000 more doctors just to meet the OECD average number of physicians-per-population. There is no such syndrom in the US.

By 2006, fewer than 10 percent of Ontario family doctors were accepting new patients. Currently, five million Canadians (one in six) have no family doctor. Patients can wait weeks to see a doctor, months to see a specialist and many more months for treatment.

[jestoninnes]

Lol. The OECD average number of physicians-per-population is 3.1 I just finished telling you that America only has 2.3 how is that any different then Canada. You Moron.

The number of Canadains without family Doctors is 4.1 According to Statistics Canada. Which is roughly 12% of the population. While in the US 45 Million (15%) are not insured and don't have a GP. Not to mention those insured who don't have one.

[jestoninnes]

In the US you spend months getting approval from your insurance company. Lots of the time you denied coverage.

In a cross-national survey of sick adults in five countries, 40% of people in the U.S. said it was either very difficult or somewhat difficult to see a specialist.

31% cited being denied a referral or having to wait for a

referral.

[jestoninnes]

This is what you don't understand. The Healthcare industry will never be a free market. It cant be. Again it comes back to the inelastic nature of the good/service being provided. This means again that sustainable barriers of entry can be created preventing normal competiton. Companies can then push up the prices so that they can cover the costs of these barriers of entry while making huge profits. Normal competition isn't occuring and never will in this industry.

[jestoninnes]

Over 70 milion Americans are insured by one company. Thats a third of americans who have private insurance. Thats not normal competition. And if you think Ron Pauls plan will work please tell me what laws you pass or remove inorder to make it work. Individuals buying there own insurance will help things a little but its effects will not be substantial and it wont stop medical bankruptcy.

[regelemihai]

HSA which do not involve any of the HMOs or big insurance companies have shown, where they have been implemented to drive the costs down and leave the insured satisfied. You don't need the government to step in and put restrictions. Plus, over 100 million Americans are covered by the government through Medicaid and Medicare, two programs which are on the verge of collapsing.

[jestoninnes]

Lol. HSA. yeah Cause america has the reputation of a country who is frugal. Lol. About 43% of American families spend more than they earn each year. Average households carry some $8,000 in credit card debt. Personal bankruptcies have doubled in the past decade. And the economy is in recession but you expect people who don't even have a job to save money. lol. The US debt to gdp ratio is 122%. Canada 53%.

[regelemihai]

That is also very misleading and dishonest. Truth is, with all the new bugdet funding,your government is moving more towards private care seeing that ppl aren't being treated properly. In 2005,Canada's supreme court struck down key laws in Quebec that established a government monopoly of health services.Brian Day, an orthopedic surgeon,so frustrated with the gov. cutbacks had to invest in a private hospital to make up for the massive deficinecy on the national level. He is also the presindent...

[regelemihai]

...of the CMA.

In British Columbia and Vancouver 50,000 ppl are being treated in private clinics annually. According to the NYT, a private clinic is opened at a rate of on per two weeks across the country. Even in Sweden and France there is a massive shift towards private care. Over 60% of French citizens require private care a supplemental healthcare coverage in addition to the one the gov won't cover.

[jestoninnes]

Again you don't know what your taking about. In Canada any province can chose not to have a single payer system it says so in the legizlation what you are taking about is simply a law that was created by the quebec government. It in no way reflects on the single payer system present in the rest of the country. Any individual in Canada can if they chose to buy private healthcare. but you are treated the same as those without.

[jestoninnes]

your also perpetuating the fallacy that all healthcare in Canada is provided public which is not the case. In fact 75% of the healthcare providers are private. It has always been this way it is not some move to a more private system it is simply what it has always been a system in which healthcare is provided privately and paid for publicly.

[jestoninnes]

This proves that you have no idea what your taking about. Stop reading your stupid consevative propaganda and do some actual research and you find that they are more mytrhs about the Canadain healthcare system than the American equivalant.

The truth is simple americans pay twice as much to walk over 31% of thier populatiion to get fast access to substandard treatment. You spend the most and get the least.

[regelemihai]

Stop listening to your sophomoric utopian left wing "media" for five minutes and read more into it. I know it's easier for you to label whatever doesn't support your preconceived LaLa land scenarios as "myth" and give yours a tap on the back, but better live in the real world.

And if you think American healthcare is substandard compared to your primitive socialistic one, then someone needs to burst your bubble as fast as possible.

[jestoninnes]

Lol. again your ignorance is showing. First Canada doesn't have what it is term socialized medicine. Socialized medicine mean there are no private healthcare providers. Canada has a single payer plan. Its different but your to ignorant or dumb to understand that. Also I am not the one believing in a myth. Everyother G8country has a form of single payer healthcare so don't act like we are the odd ones out.

[regelemihai]

" *YOU'RE too ignorant or dumb..." Hehe, the irony :P

I know you guys have a single payer system. The Government collects almost all the revenues and pays all the bills, and only a small fraction is paid for by private funds. What did I get wrong moron? :)

[regelemihai]

Almost every study? Provide peer reviewed evidence please. What I know of is of the massive influx of Canadians who come here to get the kind of procedures that the reliable Canadian gov put them on hold for.

A study published in Lancet Oncology says that only half the ER patients are being treated in a timely fashion, cancer survival rates are much higher than those in Canada, and that between 2006-2008 your splendid gov relied so heavily on our healthcare that it sent more than 160 ppl...

[regelemihai]

...to NY and Michigan for emergency neurosurgery. Precisely because of the lack of doctors, long waiting list, and so on.

As for having more surgery and having "the same technology"- Based on data from the Joint Canada/U.S. Survey of Health,Americans have greater access to preventive screening tests and have higher treatment rates for chronic illnesses. The same data shows that the poor under socialized medicine seem to be less healthy relative to the nonpoor than their American counterparts.

[jestoninnes]

160 people thats not even a percentage of the population. Lol. Here is a statistic for you americans spend over a billion dollars a year on healthcare products in Canada. lol.

Americans also have higher rates of chronic illnesses so the numbers for higher treatment rates only reflect that. Furthermore this information is all bullshit as america has no standardizied system of medical data collection almost everything comes from surveys. While in Canada we do.

[jestoninnes]

Gordon H. Guyatt et al. conducted a meta-analysis, or systematic review, of all studies that compared health outcomes for similar conditions in Canada and the U.S., in Open Medicine. Of 10 studies with the strongest statistical validity, 5 favoured Canada, 2 favoured the United States, and 3 were equivalent or mixed.

[regelemihai]

Another study I know of says otherwise. When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).

[jestoninnes]

Yeah I would like to know the name of the place who conducted this study. Who was it? Fox news... likely someone with similuar crediablity.

[regelemihai]

Oh, do I smell desperation there Sparky? Appeals to emotion when having no other argument. Tsk tsk tsk...

No it's not from Fox News, but that would be convenient for you, wouldn't it?.Hehe.

Have you provided any citations up till' now?

Anyway, knock yourself out:

June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill, "Health Status, Health Care and Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S."

[jestoninnes]

First of all I have provided citation in most case and will provide it for anything if you were to ask.

Second this study doesn't even have a poll taking about American vs Canadain healthcare satisfaction. I am guessing you thought I wanted the Cancer one.

Thats fine though This study shows plent of bias. But to an even more interesting finding they don't even compare the mortality rates. They compare and incident mortality ratio. Lol. You misinturpt again.

[jestoninnes]

Also you should know that this is only a survey to 9000 people. lol. Can you say tiny samply size. Thats not even a percentage of the canadian population.

Furthermore the Overall mortality rate is lower in Canada across the board. And the Ratios comparing incident and mortality show only a 3% difference between Canada and the US. Which is statistically insignifigant. Yet again destroyed. And proven to have no idea what your taking about. Lol.

[jestoninnes]

Actualy Cancer mortailty rates are higher in the US as Canada has signfigantly less Cancer incident then the US. An international comparison by the National Cancer Institute of Canada indicated that incidence rates for most, but not all, cancers were higher in the U.S. than in Canada during the period studied (19931997).

[regelemihai]

????

According to: U.S. Cancer Statistics, National Program of Cancer Registries, U.S. Centers for Disease Control; Canadian Cancer Society/National Cancer Institute of Canada, and even Dave M. O'Neil Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians. Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.

[jestoninnes]

No those are survivablity rates not mortality rates. i would expect an idoit like you to understand that since canadians get cancer alot (dramatically) less the overall mortality rate is lower. Again you don't know anything but bullshit talking pints. You can't even sucessfully interpt the information your given.

[regelemihai]

Lol, in that case you're a bigger moron than I thought. What does that have to do with the quality of healthcare? It's like duducing from the fact that the overall mortality rate of a country is bigger than another the healthcare system is broken.

Maybe car accidents, homicide rates, and so on are the cause of that...Maybe?

The survivability rate reflects on the quality of the care.

You're hopeless :P

[jestoninnes]

Thats not what I am saying you Moron. What I am saying is its easy to have lower mortatility rates when your rate of occurance is so much higher.

This is typical of the US healthcare system. Don't see your GP often wait till your almost dead then go to the hospital and we will fix you. LOL

[billyysands]

i would like to see the united states creat some sort of universal program. single payer is tempting when i lived in toronto in the late 1970s,but there are problems

waiting times for some procedures is one

and there are deficits..now the dutch health care system is almost totally private regualted and universal and might work better here..its also a good model

and better suited to a society like ours that

despises governement run anything.

but we need to do SOMETHING!

[Lahti213]

Privatized health care all the way!

[cristallday]

France has the best healthcare!, America would let you die if you are not covered. And even if you think you are the companiy will try as hard as it can to get outr of admitting liability.

[TimeWarp66]

What we have in this country is not free market healthcare. We have a corporate/government healthcare system where 3rd parties pay costs.

[rightwing55]

Show me a social healthcare system anywhere in the world that works? You can't. People with a headache will going to the doctor, causing massive backlogs of patients. Not to mention all the illegal immigrants that do not pay taxes will be sucking up not just our money, but the hospital bed space also. Emergency rooms take everybody with or without insurance or money. The facts speak for themself. Don't even say Cuba, I was born in miami, and lived there my whole life. I know a lot of Cubans.

[gallowswood]

I was in the military (Marine Corps), and we had socialized medicine and it worked. Also, I am now living in Finland, a country with socialized medicine, and it works great.

[rightwing55]

Well you know what Mr. I love social healthcare stay the fuck in finland. We don't want the fucking shit here, OK. You like high taxes, you like paying for sorry ass's healthcare thats fine. WE don't? I wont.

[rightwing55]

I've read up on finlands healthcare system, and it's more complicated then our tax system. Plus their tax system is way below our standards. 1,200 dependent allowance vs our 3,500, which McCain intends to raise to 7,000. You can stick your finlnd healthcare and tax system where the sun don't shine, because they both suck in compared to ours.

[Plihtari]

You are quite the typical "anti socialisme" idiot.

Norway, Sweden, Finland and most of western Europe has a mix of socialistic and capitalistic thinking, and it works alot better than the sorry ass system you have in the USA. Nothing against the USA, I want to study there for 6 months, but social healthcare works, and works great in Finland. Get a gripp on reality man.

[TimeWarp66]

The USA doesn't have a capitalist healthcare system. We have a corporate/government run system where 3rd parties pay costs, it's not a free market by any means, that's why prices are so high keeping decent hard working people from being able to buy insurance. Going socialist is not the way to go. Look up Ron Paul's explination of this here on youtube.

[billyysands]

the scandanavian mode is truelly facinating the heritage foundation puts denmark norway sweden and finland

near the top of the list of pro market economies and yet they all have sophisticated social welfare systems

they have adapted to the wolrd economy

and created good social models

but american would never pay those tax rates it wont work for you

[coillockspiral]

Rightwing55, you cock-eyed nutball. Stop listening to Rush and get your head out the toilet. I've lived under your crap corporate healthcare system in the us...I wouldn't wish that on anybody. I like the US, but your healthcare is freakin' primative, and everybody in the world knows it except people like you.

[billyysands]

IS MAKES ME SO SICK HOW BRAINWASHED AND STUPID MOST AMERICANS ARE, let me rephrase most VOCAL americans i suspect the silent majority is a bit mor erational but intimidated, i dont care i'm old i'm french i have family in the Direction Générale de la Sécurité Extérieure, or DGSE) you cant touch me rednecks

[regelemihai]

"I lived under" and other sorts of personal anecdotes are no substitutes for an argument. I lived under your crappy socialized healthcare in VARIOUS European countries and it doesn't compare.

What say you now? Your word against mine, it appears.

The only difference is that your personal ipsit dixit will get 8 thumbs up while mine, based on bias, will get minuses.

You people are the best ;)

[12guerillas]

Common sense is on your side. Oh shit, here comes the thought police. I gotta go.

[RJMarston]

By suggesting that we remove the insurance companies completely, are you saying that citizens should fend for themselves? Maybe I'm confused, but that seems to be the opposite of universal health care. Some people wouldn't be able to take care of themselves - what about them? Please explain.

[RJMarston]

I still can't decide whose plan is better. Clinton's mandates can't be enforced, but Obama is "leaving people out." Obama is a lot more likable, and at least he didn't vote in support of the war.

[FalconX2000]

Look at it this way. Wat people will not have insurance under Obama's plan?

1. Those who can't afford it.They will also not have health insurance under Hillary's plan, since they can't afford it there either, and Hillary's plan is more expensive for people, which means more people can't afford it)

2. Those who just don't want it because they think they can do without it. This hurts those who CHOOSE not to get it since they can't pay if shit happens. It also hurts the insurance companies.

[FalconX2000]

It hurts the insurance companies because those healthy people are supposed to help balance out the cost of maintaining insurance for the unhealthy ones.

Now we move onto Clinton's plan. She has a mandate forcing everyone to buy health insurance.

All those under point 1 still won't have insurance under Hillary's plan, and the group in point 1 is larger because her plan costs more. Then, her plan would penalise those who can't afford it. Imagine fining somebody for not being able to afford

[FalconX2000]

healthcare. It's effectively taking money from the poor for being too poor to look after themselves.

The good thing about Hillary's plan is in point 2. Assuming she can enforce the mandate, those healthy people will be forced to have health insurance. This means the insurance companies are given a more secure deal and that we don't have stupid tragedies occuring because a person who is perfectly healthy and reasonably comfortable financially doesn't have health insurance.

[FalconX2000]

However, Clinton's plan comes with the presumption that anybody who doesn't get healthcare, whether it is by choice or not, has definately dont something ethically wrong and thus penalises them.

People will want to buy it if they can afford it. With Obama's plan, the government can take a look later and see if their plan is still too expensive for people, what the problems are, without penalising poor people for being unable to afford something. Therefore, I'd go with Obama's plan.

[Duchyp]

Surely making health care more affordable is the key everyone should be assest on the situation instead of say everyone in the working class should have $200 or more taken out or their wages I mean what would that be paying for? and can everyone afford to do that I don't think she has thought this out.

[kizzitt]

She is a self serving bitch