The Brass Embouchure and Air Stream Direction

[eaglerat1]

I've tried to find upstream performers in classical music but they seem to be quite rare. Do you know someone?

[wilktone]

@eaglerat1 It's harder to find closeup photos/video of famous classical brass musicians, but see if you can find Dennis Brain, Russell McKinney, or Blair Bollinger. I'm sure there are others.

[eaglerat1]

@wilktone Thanks, I check them out. I'm not quite sure but Tine Thing Helseth (who is a Norwegian solo trumpet player) looks a bit like she's a low placement type player. Her mouthpiece placement is quite half and half and from the outside it looks like there's more lower lip than upper lip inside the mouthpiece. Her horn angle is pretty high and her embouchure motion (which is quite minimal) seems to be down to ascend, up to descend. What do you think?

[wilktone]

@yourbrassinstructor I agree and that was the general advice I gave him after the single short session I got to work with him. I was doing research, not teaching lessons.

[wilktone]

@wilktone Although I should qualify that I disagree with the very low free buzzing, as it takes the work away from the muscles he would want to develop.

[wilktone]

@yourbrassinstructor Actually, I've found the reverse to be more common, upstream players tend to cut more (probably because of the brighter tone they tend to have). Arturo is a downstream player. A powerful upstream example is Jon Faddis.

[dewie159]

The last trumpet player is like me. My teacher and private lesson teacher told me to change. Now I'm having problens...

[furrytummy]

This video clarified me some concepts. Thanks a lot!

[slayermaitallithrash]

@wilktone GREAT VID LOVED IT!!!

[SteveFallon1]

Look at videos of the likes of Raphael Mendez and Harry James. They played with a tight mask, the facial muscles tightly contracted. None of the players I see in this video use a professional embouchure. They are using the muscles around the lips to control air-flow, volume and tone. Their masks are loose. There should be a tight smile behind that mouthpiece. I played first chair for many of my 51 years as a trumpet player. Take it from an old pro: these kids will never play at that level

[wilktone]

@SteveFallon1 The "masks' you refer to look different on different players because different players have different faces. Three of the players are professional brass musicians with doctoral degrees on their instruments. One played in a premier DC Air Force band for several years at a very high level. I play "first chair" frequently on my professional jobs. I don't think you can call honestly us three "kids" or unsuccessful brass players.

[lostplanet2girl]

hello im a intermediate horn player, and I've never thought about how my embachure looks

[B4Marchingband]

@lostplanet2girl I never did until a horn teacher started coming every week to class. He keeps trying to change me to a downstream position but naturally im an upstream its actually really frustrating. Ive tried downstream but its doesn't work for me. Ive played for about 4 years and only 1 1/2 actually helped me be a better horn player. If you get a routine that helps with slurs and range you'll be pretty golden!

Happy Playing!

[lennic95]

Isn't that the same person in each example??

[wilktone]

@lennic95 Nope, 5 different players on this video. 4 of them have facial hair, though. Look closely and you can see the differences.

You can't play well on an embouchure type that your face isn't suited for, so getting one player to demonstrate different embouchure types wouldn't be good examples of upstream and downstream embouchures.

[lennic95]

@wilktone Oh, I was just joking...but they all look pretty much the same, bearing in mind you can only see the mouth and beard :)

[dreadss64]

Hello.Im a trumpet player,but ive been playing mellophone this year though for my marching band. I have a question though my trumpet embouchure which my brass teacher said is not a good embouchure but it worked for me. The way i played which i think i would say maybe a upstream? I didn't use much of my top lip. The top lip was almost off the mouthpiece and i play to the side. Now that ive been on Mellophone ive changed it. Im now using both bottom and top lip.

[wilktone]

@dreadss64 If you place the mouthpiece with more lower lip inside, then it was an upstream embouchure. Your brass teacher may have meant that it wasn't a good embouchure for you individually, or maybe he/she just doesn't know about the different embouchure types.

Maybe ask your teacher to watch some of the videos I've posted. Usually any player that ends up playing upstream does because it works. Downstream players usually can't make this work for them, so incorrectly assume it's wrong.

[Tokin60]

Great job. Thanks for share. 

[brolenter]

The information here is very helpful. I don't see the need of puting it down without reason or proof to the contrary. It answer embouchre questions and the fact that we are all built different so we should play according to our natural physical characteristics. Force anything out of the natural, and you will only work extra and achieve less.

[rubbishan]

thanks a lot!!!! i use my mirror to adjust the position and i find that it sounds better and easy to handle:)

[bluetigressemoon]

i learned about embouchure in choir! our teacher said it gives the voice more resonance , sounds clean and more mature! plus he said when your lips are wide as if you're smiling it can sond whiney like a pop singer. he had a good point!

[bendix5]

I don't understand why all the players are cracking on simple slurs in the examples and why the tone quality is generally so poor. Are these brass students or casual players?

Were they nervous or something?

[wilktone]

You must be a very fine player, bendix5, if you find octave slurs spanning sometime more than 3 octaves "simple." If you can, post a video response of your chops for us to learn from.

Some of my subjects found it difficult to play on a plastic mouthpiece they weren't used to. As far as the tone quality, perhaps the camera mic isn't give us an honest representation.

3 subjects are university brass teachers (one was still recovering from Bell's Palsy), 2 were college music students.

[bendix5]

Well, I don't have a video camera but will do so when I get one. I am a horn player and play the complete Farkas warmup everyday which includes lots of octave slurring.

In listening to the video again, I guess if the point is to underscore that playing with what would be considered a weird embouchure is "OK" why not show off a bit? Why talk over the most interesting playing at the end?

After all musicians are showman. Show us! Prove that playing this way is fine by playing something amazing!

[wilktone]

I leave the showing off to the trumpet players. :) You might find what you're looking for in one of my other videos.

My main goal is to make this information more accessible and understandable. You seem to have gotten the point, so I consider it a success. I hope you do too!

Thanks for watching!

[joeybabydarlin]

people like bendix NEVER have anything to show. We should just feel sorry for them really. It must be sad to be so. thank YOU very much wilktone.

[ProjectmixBros]

Hello Sir. I posted a video response and it is awaiting your approval. In case there was an error in my uploading and you did not receive the response, you can still see the video on my channel. [check out my mozart requiem trombone vid I took!]

Please note that my video camera was not working so I took pictures and put my recording behind it. Please excuse the sloppiness also. I recorded this solely for this response. - Mark

[limpingsnake]

Thanks for the ideas. I've been wrestling with the mouthpiece for quite some time and this might help.

[valvetrom]

Yes Digby Fairweather said it years ago, follow your instincts , your anatomy.Also Wild Bill Davidson played a wonderful lively Jazz cornet.

[selltaxi]

same here i will be aditioning for 8th grade band and im trying to play higher on trumpet

[emuman4evr]

march drum corps!

[maestrojeremy]

I really needed this, thank you.

I've read Reinhardt's book on the pivot system and it was the single most important and helpful book about embouchure I've ever read. That was about a year ago, and this video reminded me of some things I had forgotten since reading this book.

I'm a horn player with many embouchure problems, but Reinhardt's approach works better than any other for me. Especially with embouchure formation in regards to dental structure, lip structure and air stream direction.

[xRinat]

good vid, but you guys should really shave :P

[kleineschutter]

I dont like how you handeled that student.

It wasnt the half half embouchure that was the problem. There is totally no muscel working at his mouth when he's playing.

He starts out to fit the lips in the mouth, that looks good, but then, when he starts playing, he lets it all go. Any good kind of embouchure is with some control over the lips. This isnt a good embouchure.

I dont mind up or down or middle stream. Just listen to your lips.

[wilktone]

With respect, you don't know at all the advice I gave any of the subjects, let alone students that have problems as serious as the one you're referring to. Yes, he had a number of issues with his embouchure, as I said in the video. This video is only about the air stream direction, which was the original source of his problems.

[marchingbandman]

if your mouthpiece is not in the middle of your mouth does that affect your sound. i play on the side of my lip

[wilktone]

"marchingbandman," that really depends on the player. Off-center placement is common, and some players will play best with a placement quite far to one side. It is a factor of the player's anatomy, and not something I can tell if it's OK for you without seeing you.

[marchingbandman]

o ok. thank you

[ProjectmixBros]

Hello Sir. I am a trumpet player and I have a some what unique embouchure. I play far right and my lips are placed around/over the mouthpiece, more or less. I still place the mouthpiece on my lips obviously, but I place it on the farthest part of the inside of my lips. I get lots of comments from how bad it is to do that to how nice my sound is. [ i am 16] and I really want to change my embouchure to the "correct" way, but in all my efforts to do so - It has felt uncomfortable and unresponsive.

[ProjectmixBros]

... Do you have any further advice as to what actions I should/should not take? Thank You very much. - Mark

[wilktone]

Mark, I'd have to watch you play to offer any advice. I can say that some people do play best with an off-center mouthpiece placement, so it may be OK for you to leave your placement where it is. I can't say for sure without seeing you, though.

[valvetrom]

I found that very intersting ,I get best results by leainng only the top rim of the mp to the top lip, and leave the bottom lip fairly loose. But I make sure to have a 5mm minimum gap between the lips, tonguing with the tongue filling the gap, kickstarting the sound.

[screamertrumpetfan]

I must say David, this is a damn fine video.

I myself posses a downstream embrouchure with a half and half lip placement.

I do agree with the fact that one shold just focus on obtaining an embrouchure that best fits one's physical characteristics.

[robtic360]

Hi David. I am thirteen years old and play the trombone and trumpet. However, i am a bit confused whether the stream direction for the two instruments would be different. Well i'm still growing too... Anyway your video was very helpful! Do you have any tips on overcoming braces?

[hichez50]

Dont get brace guards because it will only talk longer for you to get use to your braces. Your stream direction doesn't change usually. If when using a bigger or small embrochue. Also as you devlop as a trumpet player your embrochue postition might change a little so it can produce the best sound as possible.

[Gramasasa]

Thanks so much for making this video. it really helped me a lot!!!!!!

[kdogg1777]

Dear David,

I like the video you have presented however, at 4:48, the trumpet player's lower lip seems to be rolled out quite a bit. This could be a factor to a brighter and more uncontrolled sound. Also, His clear mouthpiece that is used in the video looks (just by observation) to be very shallow. I would suggest saying the letter "M". As the letter ends you will feel your lips come together without the bottom lip being rolled out.

Cheers,

kdogg1777

check out my vids in Austin, TX!

[wilktone]

Yes, that trumpet player's lip position is one of the "few embouchure issues" I alluded to in my commentary, yet was beyond the scope of this short video.

Thanks for watching!

[trumpetburbank]

Fantastic job! Thank you.

[goodgigs]

Dave Wilken, thank you, thank you,

thank you! The late Arnald jacobs would be proud of your presentation.

I am posting a link to the tuba BBS

(Tubenet). I like it because it valadates My therory of regester controle.

[wilktone]

"No importa si la boquilla se coloca arriba," "It doesn't matter if the mouthpiece throat is positioned above,"

Sorry, but this is demonstrably wrong. I'm sorry I don't have Spanish translations for all my videos, but you could prove this yourself. Move your own mouthpiece placement to mostly lower lip inside and try to play. You cannot make a downstream embouchure play upstream and function well, or vice versa.

[wilktone]

Qué obras luigianguiani recomienda para muchos, pero las diferencias en la anatomía que algunos jugadores trabajan exactamente enfrente de él. Mira otros vídeos que he publicado aquí para ver algunos ejemplos.

[luigianguiani]

Como sistema de tecnicas basicas recomiendo ampliamente The Louis Maggio System for Brass . En este año saldra la primera edicion de mi metodo Sistema Integral de Tecnicas Basicas . Te mando un saludo desde la ciudad de Mexico D.F

[luigianguiani]

No importa si la boquilla se coloca arriba, en medio o abajo de los labios si el estudiante comprende a la perfeccion las tecnicas basicas del sistema de Louis Maggio lograra obtener un sonido de alta calidad y un dominio de un amplio registro de su instrumento ya sea trompeta, trombòn etc.el estudio debe de complementarse con mètodos de flexibilidad y digitacion. GRACIAS POR TU INTERES . te mando un caluroso abrazo

[iamsublime]

a tu criterio y entendiendo que cada labio es diferente, que embocadura te parece mas "correcta" o "sonora"? con mas labio de arriba (direccion de aire para abajo) o con mas labio de abajo (direccion para arriba)? es una pregunta totalmente personal, y te pregunto porque me di cuenta que yo toco con mas labio de arriba en la boquilla y no se si me mal acostrumbre y tendria que cambiarla o seguir tocando asi. saludos y gracias!

[luigianguiani]

te recomiendo 2/3 en el labio superior y 1/3 en el labio inferior la corriente de aire debe dirigirse hacia abajo , esta colocacion te dara un sonido de alta calidad.

[luigianguiani]

Despues de una seria investigacion de tecnicas y sistemas por mas de 20 años, llegue a la conclucion de que el mejor sistema para la ejecucion de los instrumentos de brass es el sistema del maestro "LOUIS MAGGIO"

[wilktone]

No lo sé. Maggio nunca dirigida aire dirección, que es una parte importante de una embouchure.

[luigianguiani]

Por supuesto que sî, maggio dice que la direccion de la corriente de aire debe ser dirigida hacia abajo . es muy importante comprender muy bien los textos del sistema . te sugiero ver los videos de bill watrous , en uno de ellos , dice que la corriente de aire debe ir dirigida hacia la parte inferior de la copa de la boquilla.. muy pronto saldra la primera edicion de mi metodo para trombon basado en este sistema te mando un saludo desde la ciudad de mexico d.f..

[wilktone]

Algunos jugadores juegan latón con el aire volando. La mayoría de golpe hacia abajo. Esto es completamente dependiente de la anatomía, y no como una elección Maggio pensamiento.

Rogamos disculpen mi pobre español. No puedo explicar esto con más detalle.

[luigianguiani]

ejecuta las tecnicas correctamente:dientes abiertos,labios juntos y hacia adelante como si fuesemos a silbar y sobretodo el labio inferior ligeramente debajo y detras del labio superior, la corriente de aire se dirigira hacia abajo en forma natural. puede no funcionar si el estudiante tiene malformaciones. yo he corregido a bastantes alumnos con problemas de embocadura, con excelentes resultados.el problema de la anatomia es un MITO,yo lo he comprobado

[wilktone]

Usted debe ver los vídeos de YouTube de Jon Faddis, Doc. Severinson, Miles Davis, Kai Winding, Dennis Brain, y Wynton Marsalis. Todos ellos son ejemplos de jugadores de latón con un ascendente embouchure. No voy a tratar de "corregir" su embouchure. Tengo otros videos con otros ejemplos arriba también.

Gracias por ver.

[luigianguiani]

embocadura y direccion de la corriente de aire son dos temas totalmente distintos, up stream midle stream down stream, son terminos imprecisos solo confunden al alumno principiante. como instructor recomiendo la colcacion de la boquilla: 2/3 en el labion superior y 1/3 en el labio inferior . ò 1/2 y 1/2 (en el centro), No importando cual sea la colocacion de la boquilla,arriba, abajo o en el centro, la corriente de aire siempre se dIrigira hacia abajo en forma natural. GRACIAS POR SU INTERES

[wilktone]

La colocación de la boquilla de aire y dirección en la que describe para la mayoría de las obras. Mi punto es que una minoría significativa de latón con los jugadores más labio superior y jugar mejor en sentido ascendente.

[associatedwithlosi]

I play pretty close to half and half but my tone is really great, I play a Bach LT42TG. Is it my trombone making my tone sound good or not? I have a bit of my jaw further back. I may ask my teacher john rutherford, I'm not sure if you know him, he is a Detroit based freelance trombone.

[RaiderBoneDude]

where is this etude that he plays in the beginning found? I remember playing it once, but it's been awhile, I can't remember.

[wilktone]

It is the Telemann Fantasy No. 1, first movement (last movement at the end of the video). It was originally composed for solo flute, but I was playing from Alan Raph's transcription of those 12 Fantasies for solo trombone.

[UpcomingJedi]

Thank you. This helps explain many questions as to what is "proper" placement of the lips.

[artgirl1028]

Thank you so much for this video! I play the trumpet, and have always had a difficult time with reaching high notes with any power. After watching this video, I tried your suggestions. The difference was amazing! I hit those high notes that had given me so much trouble! And not only did I reach them, but they were strong, bright, and clear!

Thanks again... Now I know what I was doing wrong, and why I was having so much trouble.

[weinerdogzzrule]

I think brass instruments are great I am kind of a oxymorone since I play a woodwind instrument.But now I am learning how to play the bariton so ya.

[SirMarkus7]

Thank you for the interesting video. I'm 17and I've been playing the trumpet for a little while now. But, I don't seem to be a very natural player. It seems that no matter how much I practice, my range doesn't improve past High B or so, varying day to day, and my endurance is relatively bad. I try to avoid using excessive pressure (although I don't always succeed). I've been told that my throat tenses too much when I play. How restrictive can a tense throat be on playing?

[rmfotj]

If your throat's tense, there's a likelihood that your trachea also becomes constricted. And, as you know, trumpet is a wind instrument. No air=no sound. Simple as that. Kudos to you for not using excessive pressure.

[rmfotj]

As for pressure being applied on the lips, try not to think TOO much about it, as it can seriously mess up your mind. Just being aware of the risks that excessive pressure produce is good enough. As for high notes, I will tell you what I feel like. I am still completely relaxed, but my respiratory systems are working HARD to produce those notes. I'm pretty sure you may have heard this, but... do not "squeeze" the notes out from your lips; actually produce and play the notes

[rmfotj]

As for stamina... (you may have heard something similar in your life):

1.When you inhale, fill your body from the end of the toes, all the way up to the chest (not literally), and let the air out and into the instrument

2.Let your air and your body to the work

3.etc etc etc...

4.Practice scales in an infinite loop, breathing as necessary, without taking the horn off of your face,

As funny as number one may sound like, people sometimes have endurance problems because of how they in/exhale

[rmfotj]

What can also help with range are these two things:

1,Like a string player pressing the string higher up on the bridge to get a high note, imagine your lips gradually zipping up the air hole and move inward, making it very small and focused.

2.Work on unifying the range of the instrument. Here's an exercise (play all slurred):Start from C, and go C-D-E-F-G-F-E-D-C, then a half-step up: C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, F#, E#, D#, C#, and so on.

[rmfotj]

Also, lower, middle, and upper register are three stupid names that we give to our instruments. Range is a continous spectrum of notes that we can produce on our horns, and it is not "broken up" into three distinct "registers". So, your high B, while it technically is, really shouldn't feel like a "high" B. As a matter of fact, do not think of it being "high" (although you'd still have to work hard, of course!)

[wilktone]

There does appear to be some differences in tone quality with upstream and downstream embouchures, but I would avoid making your generalization based on comparing only 3 downstream to 1 upstream players. Upstream players tend to have a brighter sound, well suited to a lot of jazz playing. Downstream players often have a darker sound, blending well with strings in an orchestra. Exceptions exist and both types can change their sound through practice and equipment choices.

Thanks for watching!

[pppuzzzo]

Hello, my name is Dima, I trombonist from Ukraine, Thank you very much, your video is helping me

[andrecarioni]

hello Dima, make a video of you playing and show us in youtube!

from brazil, trumpetist andre.

[LClassicRockerZ]

Very useful and interesting. I was always insecure about my embouchure(2/3 bottom 1/3 top) especially after hearing from better students that I should use a 50/50 embouchure.

[tobias02134]

what was the piece being played by the trombone at the end?

[wilktone]

Telemann Fantasy No. 1, second movement. It was originally composed for solo flute, but I was playing from Alan Raph's transcription of those 12 Fantasies for solo trombone.

[davidfromcali]

That was a very good video, I usually stop by my old schools and give sectionals to beginning trumpet players and I think this will help most of the students I'm teaching. Also, have you heard of Dave Loeb from LA? (Piano jazz player) When you started the video I thought you said your name was Dave loeb, haha.

[nitoprek]

great vidio.. thx very much.. I started to play with diferent embouchures.. short time gives really great difference.. agan.. thank you i made big improvement following your tutorial

[freshhh1994]

so an embouchre with the lower jaw receded and the air directed downwars is a downstream embouchure?

[befro]

embouchures with the top lip predominating in the cup are downstream. The reverse is true: bottom lip predominating = upstream

[godwhatafatty]

I'll send a video of me playing if you could notice what I'm doing wrong.

I made all-state and I'm in numerous youth orchestras. I really... really want to major in horn performance, and I don't know where to turn to for help anymore.

Please help.

[godwhatafatty]

I've been playing french horn for 6 years, and I don't believe I've ever had a correct embouchure. When I play, I jam the horn into my face, tilt my head back, and push my head foward (for pressure). Recently, I've had deep tissue massage to relieve the immense pain in my neck and shoulders associated with how I play.

This summer I intended to fix my problem, but I'm lost. My 2 horn teachers weren't able to explain it to me, and I'm only getting worse as I try fixing things.

PLEASE help me.

[moviesmyway]

I'm apparently not a friend of Captain Obvious... this video truly did help me.. Though I may have known at least 75% of the things here... The few things shown in here really opened my eyes to how I've been playing. I do play half in half. My senior told me when I was playing lower notes that I should aim the air up in the mouthpiece though. I've been playing for 3 years and have never really thought about this.. You've brought it to my attention. Thankyou.

[shoegazer666]

wow, ever heard of Captain Obvious?

[emanonami]

So why do 90% of college brass teachers still teach from the old, incorrect Farkas' book "The Art of Brass Playing."

Oh... And why do symphonic teachers often tell their students to pivot down which is commonly wrong!

Oh and remind me why most trumpet teachers think that a low placement is bad or incorrect (When infact some of the best players in the world use just such a position).

I agree - it IS obvious - but it just makes most people who teach brass outdated, narrow minded and illogical.

[soulfire2588]

i agree with you. For years people told me that my own very low placement would hurt my range and endurance. Well, I now play lead in local bands and have a SOLID double high C. I teach lessons on the side and can play for hours. Don't try to make people play with embouchures they can't naturally use. I truly believe that we'd have many more talented brass players if people used what was naturally best for them; not what was taught to them by some high school band director.