Thom Hartmann challenges Fox News Pundit Judge Andrew Napolitano

[BigDaddyDJD]

legally speaking, how is it that a group of persons loses their rights as soon as they join together (in a corporations for example)?

would that mean that the feds can just go into the offices of any business and rummage through their books and papers?!

[keepaopenmind]

Fetuses are not persons, but corporations are. That alone shows how screwed up we are.

[HandyMan101]

the idea that companies are not persons is just dumb.

for a company to exist, has to have a person involved at some level.

they are run by people

worked by people

its all people...

[Wrongway1965]

I thought it was an Excellent debate... while straying from the book's subject, Mr. Hartmann found a ruling from around the same era that was just as ridiculous...

OK, so the SCOTUS has set the precedent for the ability to declare persons Not covered under the CONST... & then it grants a Corp. coverage ?... even taking into account the era of there decisions, ... can a Corp. vote as an individual ? ... or does a Human get his rights from the Govt. ? Or His Creator ? And are they inalienable ?

[Wrongway1965]

@Wrongway1965 ....

Anyways, Nice job by both guys..

To the Judge for knowing the material & thinking quick on his feet...

& to Mr. Hartmann for doing his homework & bringing a serious & substantive debate...

& honestly making me re-think a few things...

does person=human with rights ? then that person can vote and contribute funds to a canidate as a citizen

but a corp can't equal a person because they can't vote as an individual ? if they cant vote, then why grant them rights ?

Hmm...

[TheDestroyerCrom]

@hackit12: Singapore, Hong Kong, and the United States in the late 1870's are about as close to free markets as any countries have ever been. The first two both have much higher gdp/capita than the US (Singapore is at $57000/year, while the US is at about $47000), and the third is an example of the greatest economic growth experienced by any country ever in this planet: unprecedented, and unrepeated since.

[63gstone]

Maybe unions should not be allowed to donate to politicians and political parties if the companies they work under cannot.

[NikolaTeslaJohnGalt]

Apparently the judge is not as much of a Constitutionalists as some would hope! But clearly the 14th. amendment is but one example of how the Supreme Court has overstepped their bounds, in numerous decisions, such as refusing to hear the Solomon case concerning the Constitutionality of the Federal Reserve notes, as well as the conflict of the 16th. ad. by ignoring the 4th. 5th., 10th., and 14 th. just to start on a few perspectives!

Does the host value the 7th. ad. that is a right to a jury?

[MadXMax187]

Judge is the only one I can even stand listening to over there at Faux Noise

[agitcam]

Napolitano is okay on some issues but in the end he's always going to defend the corporations. He'll agree on ending drug laws, ending the Fed but he dances to the tune of corporate money.

[PJCelis]

@agitcam That's BS. Napolitano is an anarchist (of the anarcho-capitalist kind, 'ancap' in short).Hear him say it himself at /watch?v=0sNWbiAMf80 (I left a comment on the video to the right minute & seconds. In short, ancaps hate all forms of collectivism, including corporatism. Companies in the sense of people coming together to produce stuff in a voluntary fashion are supported of course.

[HandyMan101]

@agitcam companies are not mythical things.

comapnies ARE people.

[blevr1234]

-

Inane rhetoric - Ignoring and distorting –‘the reasons’- for [state and federal] regulations on businesses seems adolescent.

Markets have only been restricted, -AFTER- corporate/family elitist REPRESSIVE ACTIONS; Trust Busters and restrictions on food and drugs, of the early 20th Century -- banking restrictions after the 1st Repub. Great Depression – that worked very well for 50+ years - Until their removal in the 1980-90’s ...

Cont

[blevr1234]

...

ATT monopoly break-up has lead to a more competitive telecommunication market and much more options for the consumer. Why stop there ?

...

A less restrictive business environment was implemented in the 1980’s – the result has been a tremendous – consolidation of wealth for 10 % - and almost a total decimation of the middle class [exported jobs, loss of complete industries, destruction of pensions, etc.]

Cont

[blevr1234]

...

And egregious borrowing –‘overwhelmingly by those promoting free market’- [and ironically –‘fiscal responsibility’- too]; that only has –‘subsidized the monopolies’-

= less competitors ... at the expense of future generations. WTF

...

Destructive Wall St. [burst and bubbles] major theft/s, ever 5-6 years, two Bank/Savings and Loan related [taxpayer] bailouts – greater consolidation of the financial firms

= less free market – less competition !

cont

[blevr1234]

,,,

Wall St. firms no longer invest/loan to US businesses – but are making fortunes investing in Brazil, Russia, India and China – [BRIC].

-

Middle class wages have not kept up with inflation, even though US labor force has continually increased in productivity for 50-60 yrs.; yet, the owners and upper management have increased their take-home pay 100’s fold !

Cont

[blevr1234]

-

Options – Join the 10% elite, or fall behind !

-

Or break up the repressive monopolies, and return to the pre-Reagan taxes [where –‘those benefitting the most’-from the common infrastructure– pay their fair share -; as is done in every other industrial country]. Restrict corporate bribery of Congress [oligarchic take-over of the govt. - unlimited and anonymous campaign donations]; then you would move to a –‘free-er market ...’-

Cont

[blevr1234]

-

The economics policies of the 1980’s [corporate/family elitists preference] has been a dismal failure –‘to freedom and liberty for the majority-‘ 90 %.

-

As they duplicated the same factors that lead to the 1st Depression – de-taxation and deregulation preference for a few ! Bush II – continued it and –‘almost created a 2nd Repub. Depression’- !

*_*

Doing the same thing over and over again – and expecting different results ...

Def. of insanity – Albert Einstein !!

[johnluke1169]

The slavery decision Judge Napolitano cites is also related to how Arizona is using arrest procedures against illegal immigrants as if the illegal immigrants are not equal as people to citizens and resident aliens.

[militiaman62656]

The Judge rocked. Whoooo!

[Fockersnextdoor]

Illinois was a free state at the time, but many of the larger Illinoise farms worked the slaves morning till night. that might be why so much "white guilt" still thrives in Chicago and other ill i noise cities

[ErikMartin81]

Corporations are voluntary contracts between individuals, and those individuals have rights, period.

[spunkeee]

@ErikMartin81 EXACTLY!!! Thats what I've been trying to say! A corporation has the same rights as a natural person has. We should be viewing corporations in the same way we view people. Right???

If not, we natural people as individuals, should be judged as corporations!

[MarkRosengarten]

Corporate personhood is why we are in the middle of a deep recession (it's not over for anyone but millionaires), why income disparity in this country is worse than most third-world countries and why our environment is being poisoned. The corporate oligarchy runs the nation masquerading as government. People have fewer and fewer rights and freedoms, but fetuses and corporations must have unlimited rights. What have we come to?

[RedBloodReign]

Corporations have the same rights as human beings. Judge Andrew Napolitano is 100% right on this.

No government has the authority to group people together, or to look at groups of people, and then say that group of people has no protection under the constitution.

Corporations should be treated like a "person" because it is run by persons.

Furthermore, governments should also have the same restrictions as persons. They should not have the right to steal and kill as they please.

[Lightmane321]

@RedBloodReign 'Corporations should be treated like a 'person' because it is run by persons'

So are trains, cars, planes, toys, boats, computers, dishwashers, etc.

So I guess these THINGS should ALSO be treated LIKE PERSONS

That's some fantastic logic, ya got there

[RedBloodReign]

@Lightmane32

The emphasis was on the owners. The owners of any vehicle, etc, have the same rights and moral responsibilities as anyone else.

In the corporation, the owners change constantly, but that does not mean that the corporation is not continually protected by the same rights and freedoms as would have been granted to it if it was only ran by one person.

Though semantically it's incorrect to call a corporation a person, it is true when concerning rights and freedoms.

[brianb88]

@Lightmane321 So your car, boat, house, etc is subject to police search at any time because they as objects have no rights, correct?

[Lightmane321]

@brianb88 NOPE. I own them. Are you saying that these things should have the same rights as people? Should the supreme court rule as such?

Surely you jest. ; )

[ayaytc]

Napolitano "not here to argue some arcane point of law". After he spent like 3 minutes on the history of court stenography. I like him, but Im against corporate personhood.

[unelmitchell]

Andrew Napolitano is Asshole & a corperate whore !

[RyanR3volution]

Libertarianism does NOT allow corporations to hijack the gov because they would not have the power to in bed themselves in the gov and influence the gov because the gov would be limited and non tyrannical

[johnwrogers]

Judge Napolitano is amazing, so all of you who think otherwise no nothing about politics.

[rios9000]

I hate how government and corporations get in bed together and lean toward getting rid of the corporate entity entirely, but seriously Thom, 'what's wrong with the government seizing corporations' property whenever they so choose?' How could anyone be stupid enough to trust the government to do this benevolently? The government would just harass out of business companies it didn't like and promote companies it did (sorta like today, but on steroids). It's the recipe for a fascist state.

[pretorious700]

The only way dopes like Hartman can challenge real ideas is to throw straw men at them and pick apart the minutiae....Judge Napolitano is head and shoulders above this prick's comprehension level.

[MrAbolitionist]

declaring a human being as a non human is not the same as liberalizing property rights for the rich.

[bammbamm12]

Yeah Hartman challenged him, but he also cold cocked him. If you want to have a scholarly discussion, at least give your opponent some time to prepare.

[trajan74]

The idea that the govt. could confiscate and warrantlessly search corporate property if it wanted could be refuted by saying corporate property is common property of individual shareholders, yes?

[upplsuckimcool16]

GOD he GAVE it to you and you BLEW IT... He said "I'm not going to trust what was written in a head note" and what Tom should had said was YES me niether that's why corporations should NOT be considers persons!!!

He misunderstood what tom said but gave a truthful opinion in the process... and if that is his true opinion which we can all tell it is, then he should be in FAVOR of repealing that misunderstood case!

[garcia2ca]

Mr. Thom Hartmann you're mistaken Gymnasium with Magnesium.

[upplsuckimcool16]

Tom continued to blow it time and time again...... When judge said he's familiar with this line of argument I would have said ... OK then why did you mistake my point about the what was written in the head note and say "I won't go off of what some clerk put in a head note" because that goes to TOM'S argument!!! If you won't go by what some clerk put in a head note then I assume you AGREE that corporations should NOT be considered persons since that was ONLY written in the head note by a clerk!!!

[kenshinfreak3500]

Political Parties were also given person hood through the right of free speech. They have a collective right to be heard and primaries that are open to members of both parties are therefore unconstitutional. I do not know what the name of the case was, but collective speech rights are similar to corporations having person hood.

[bailashtoreth]

Mr. Hartmann, whether a corporation is a person or not does not MATTER. Should the government be able to walk into your home and rifle through YOUR "effects"? I assume your answer is "no." Similarly, the government should not be allowed to rifle through the effects of a corporation. It is OWNED by SOMEONE. If you are a shareholder, you should EXPECT the property of that company to be free from government intrusion without a warrant. Move on to a subject you understand.

[tombeardman]

Napolitano is a liar and apologist for Fox. He is an extreme right wing pundit. He is begging the question by relating Roe v Wade to the Dred Scott decision. Corporations need to be regulated and a constitutional amendment need to say that corporations are not natural persons, this nullifying those 37 Supreme Court decisions. WE are quickly becoming a corporatocracy. We also need to repeal the Reagan Tax cuts and bring back tariffs to protect our jobs. There, done, fixed.

[Thebboss]

@tombeardman Wow, so eliminate free trade, pump more money into a money hungry Fascist police state government in bed with the banks and wall street, and keep it ruled that fetuses which actually are alive and have beating hearts are not humans is the way to go. Amazing. Why aren't you president again? Tariffs won't work. Bringing in full fledged free trade and increasing American production is the way to go. Napolitano and Stossel are the only good Fox anchors. Get a clue.

[tombeardman]

@Thebboss So, we've tried this Ayn Rand, Objectivist, so called Free Trade for over 30 years now and seen nothing but boon and bust cycles, real wages decrease, and the nation's wealth concentrate into the hands of the top 1% of the money crooks, and you want to continue it. That's real smart. If you look through history you will find that a good protectionist policy with a progressive tax will bring steady growth for all, a strong safety net, and less crime.

[Thebboss]

@tombeardman Wow. Just wow. What history again? First of all, America is already a protectionist state. NAFTA isn't free trade because it brokers deals with specific places. REAL free trade needs NO agreements. NAFTA is protectionism at its finest. What America needs is a regressive flat tax to stimulate savings and production. There has been far too much favoring of Wall Street and government regulation. The government is distorting markets then pretending that its Free Trade.

[Thebboss]

@tombeardman If you look at the progressive tax rates and protectionism in Europe, you will see a trend of highly rich on top with no middle class, HUGE deficits, HUGE debt, and unfunded liabilities. Greece, the UK, these countries are now broke. Protectionism only works in countries that have weak markets. If America would produce again and the government would get out of the markets in things such as subsidies and wall street love ins then America could prosper.

[upplsuckimcool16]

We are not them...... and we are in worse shape.... using your logic we'd be better off doing what they do.

Try thinking things through before you comment...

[Thebboss]

@tombeardman America has NEVER had a REAL Free Market or REAL Free Trade.

[tombeardman]

@Thebboss There is no such thing a real free trade, unless you want to go back 5 thousand years before any written word. Companies are created with the permission of "We the People", yes I said it, and they operate traditionally at the behest of the community. If a company was seen as not contributing to the community and doing good for the community, then they traditionally given the corporate death penalty. You are soooo confused. Sorry to hear about your failing your sanity hearing. lol

[Thebboss]

@tombeardman Addressing the points made apparently serves no purpose. Your rambling is enough for me to not care about your comments. Try to actually make a point relevant to the discussion next time.

[tombeardman]

@Thebboss That was my point exactly, free trade is a lie. It doesn't exist. Ciao.

[picopallasi]

@tombeardman You'd think this guy would've heard the phrase "we're all Keynesians now" haha.

[tombeardman]

@picopallasi Lol!

[lonedove1981]

@tom beardman You are wrong, Napolitano has had his time cut down a lot since he started criticizing Bush about the Patroit Act.

[equsnarnd]

@tombeardman Done and fixed. eh? How about done and destroyed? Where do you morons get your economic theories from?  Bubble gum wrappers? MSNBC? Dr Seuss?

Corporatocracy CANNOT exist without gov't power. It is a gov't run amok, selling favors and power, over reaching it's constitutional limits that allows the thugs in the community to rise to these positions of power. Rein in the gov't and you rein in the abuse of power.

[kb1g]

Hartman is a boy amongst men. Currently reading the judge's latest book. Not right wing, not left wing. Just factual. If people get their ideological head out of their butts, and think, things would change.

[wistoncap]

Definition of a libertarian.... a republican that likes smoking pot and having gay sex.

[regusted]

while listening to punk rock!

[coffeeintheface]

This is probably the first time Thom's actually had a REAL libertarian on his show. Most of the time he has fake libertarians on so he can actually pretend his strawman arguments against libertarianism and free market economics make sense.

[coffeeintheface]

@hackit12 No, libertarians support individual freedom from coercion. It is irrelevent whether or not the individuals are in a "corporation" (most of which have powers given to them by GOVERNMENT).

98% of Hartmann's program consists of failed attempts at attacking libertarian strawmans. If he debated any real libertarian -- such as Robert Murphy from the Ludwig Von Mises Institute -- he would be intellectually demolished within 30 seconds.

[hackit12]

coffeeintheface -'support individual freedom from coercion'-

coffeeintheface –‘ irrelevent whether or not the individuals are in a "corporation"’-

-

-‘You are conflating what I said and the –‘alleged theories’- as Rand Paul explaines, “… private businesses should be allowed to do what ever they wish” !

.

Which could includes discrimination, under paying employees, etc. ; thusly negating their freedoms and liberty.

cont.



[hackit12]

...

As with Paul taking the side of BP, over the people –‘killed and harmed by their irresponsible greed’-. And defend continuing immunity for such offenses !

cont

[hackit12]

coffeeintheface –‘attacking libertarian strawmans’-

-

I think you have your talking points mucked up …

.

or maybe –‘a Freudian Slip’-; that Hartmann tore apart the main Libertarian Strawman contradiction – that they do favor corporations over the individuals, that work for them, customers, etc.

cont.

[hackit12]

coffeeintheface –‘...he would be intellectually demolished ...’-

-

Such a silly claim you can in no way back-up !

.

Seem to be to much of an '-ill informed follower'- of failed theories !

– just promoted with -'selfish Utopianist'- pandering !

And ignoring the corporate exceptions. Seems to be the party of FU !

[coffeeintheface]

@hackit12 I might be able to critique what you wrote, IF you could learn to spell.

Suffice it to say I've been part of the libertarian movement for years and I actively listen to Hartmann's radio show. I know what I'm talking about because I know which people are actual libertarians and which ones are the halfwit fake libertarians that make easy strawman targets for clueless people like Hartmann.

[hackit12]

coffeeintheface –‘ I might be able to critique what you wrote, IF you could learn to spell’-

-

Try communicating not critiquing ! U arrogant Coward - a spell check – copout !

[Jononutoob]

@hackit12 If you remove the government then consumers are no longer mandated to buy a product. The market is free and consumers can choose what companies they buy from. Most free marketers are not idiots. If you remove govt then the market is free and thus the consumer is free. If a corporation does something wrong then dont buy their products. With all respect the "libertarian idiocy" is really your ignorance of a pure free market economy. The consumer will be have the power, YOU, I, US!

[hackit12]

Jononutoob –‘ "libertarian idiocy" is really your ignorance of a pure free market economy....-‘

-

Sounds good ... but Historically and IN reality there is no such thing as –‘free market’- and has not been for ‘-a very long time’-; with greater monopolistic, oligarchic control of –‘almost every aspect of human life’- by a few 1000 large diversified and colluding corporations !

That is the reality - and the starting point – not –‘ WHAT IF - theoretical fantasies ’-

Cont

[hackit12]

...

Corporations are –‘established to acquire the greatest possible bottom line - $‘ – irrelevant to the consumer, jobs, morality, the country, ... !

-

... One year anniversary of –‘Citizens United vs FEC decision’- [unlimited and anonymous campaign donations] ... legalizing govt./corporate bribery

Classic Italian-style - Fascism in America !

Cont

[hackit12]

...

Any form of citizen participation or consumerism is almost totally negated; not likely to be able to outspend corporate –‘campaign donations’-. [$300+ million already spent – that distorted/perverted the 2010 mid-term elections ... outspent the opposition more than 15 to 1] ... concerted with –‘intentional media disinformation’- through Fox, Clear Channel radio, etc.

cont

[hackit12]

...

Study: Fox News Viewers Misinformed – Midterm elections

Youtube com/watch?v=JBA61YrA68Q

-

Study: Fox News Viewers Misinformed – Health Care debate !

Youtube com/watch?v=t05O3U_G_N4

-

Cont

[hackit12]

...

Repeat :

Video exposed the main -'libertarian idiocy'- [that –‘they claim individual liberty and freedom’- then –‘hand them over’- to corporations] - NEGATING themselves !

Commoncause org/site/pp.asp?c=dkLNK1MQIwG&­b=4741359

[Jononutoob]

@hackit12 Stop. You tell me to talk about reality? You are saying that thousands of corporations are colluding to control you? lol

You also make an argument that because we havent had a free market in a long time that there is no such thing. You are arguing against what i would change by citing current policy? That is plain stupid. You criticize me for being theoretical? What the hell are you doing then? You yourself are saying IF corporations had less rights then we would be better off.

[hackit12]

Jononutoob -'are colluding to control you...'- -'because we havent had a free market..'- -'IF corporations had less rights...'-

-

Can not communicate with some one who – “plays, you said this” – when I didn’t !

Make shit up - somewhere else !

[terps4eva9]

I think this is the first thing i disagree with Judge on. Good work but dont judge Napolitano on this he's a great guy. I think he's just so anti-government he is blinded that government and big corporation are in itself one entity.

[terps4eva9]

corporate taxes are dumb anyways. They just trickle down to the workers and price anyways...

[4sashimi]

reading through the comments - some people just don't LISTEN or don't know how to listen, perhaps some just are allergic to anything intelligent.

[greentwentythree]

Just turn up the volume or put on headphones, bitching about wont help lol

[crumbinator]

Great work. Too bad about the audio.

[audioX1]

Let your guest talk, Thom. My God.

[jimlaregina]

Compare Thom to most A.M. radio and televsion corporate media lackey hosts. Hartmann says practically nothing when someone with an opposing opinion is his guest.

[violinthief]

Pathetic interview. You invited him on your show, allegedly to promote his book, then filibustered him with your own agenda. Napolitano was correct to call you out and a gentleman to stay on and put up with you. He's a better man than I.

[benfergy]

So wrong, violinthief. Napolitano apparently thinks that fetuses and corporations are the most important persons in this country, which is a really wacked out view. Thom was entirely in the right.

[mashed107]

That's an outright lie.

Who supports Chrysler/GM/AIG bailouts? Not Judge Napolitano if you watch Freedom Watch.

[hackit12]

violinthief -'filibustered him with your own agenda-' - Own agenda are you - oblivious ?? - Supreme Court case [Citizens U. vs FEC] -'essentially legalized Fascism in the US'- !!! - Thom was exposing the -'libertarian idiocy'- [claim individual liberty and freedom - then hand it over to corporations] - NEGATING them ! ....

[mldnathai]

So "corporations" are "persons", but until fairly recently, individuals who were not directly decsended from Eoropeans were not "persons" in America?

This makes me ashamed to be American.

I guess it helps explain why this planet is so fuched-up, though.

Human Beings>Persons!

[Roonskii]

Shareholders should be at risk legally at some point.

[mldnathai]

Thom, you really need to fix the volume on this channel. I can't even hear the caller at all on this one at times.

[donkey69donkey69]

is thom perhaps a bit of a baby?

[rochesterpopulist]

great work against Judge No Forehead as Stephanie Miller calls him