We better read the Bible for ourselves instead of trusting Ergun Caner's citation of Romans 9, which in fact says the opposite of what Caner claims:
Rom 9:11 - For [Esau and Jacob] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, NOT of works, but of him that calleth.
All this dimwitted soul needed to do was to actually READ the chapter to find out the answer.
It says PLAINLY that it was BEFORE Jacob or Esau were born, BEFORE either of them had done ANYTHING right or wrong, that God chose to love Jacob and to hate Esau, FOR THE EXPLICIT PURPOSE of His own sovereign right and will, and to show that it has NOTHING to do with whether one "runs or will" but it is GOD who chooses to have mercy upon one, and to harden another. Ergun Caner is an imbecile.
When God stated that he loved Jacob and hated Esau its old testament and if u read in Malachi 1:1 God is talking about nations not salvation of them....In Gen 25:21-23 is talking about two nations in her womb. What God did was because Esau gave up his birthright to Jacob God chose Jacob over Esau. When stated in Romans 9 it has absolutely nothing to do with their salvation. ------- And God does not hate people he hates sin--------
@dustinp206 Really? Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, and a whole host of other verses, yet God doesn't hate people? Perhaps you think that the wine in the bible was only grape juice as well?
Why are you people debating Christianity over what this man says? He's FAKE ex Muslim, FAKE Turk.
I'm a Turk my self .. If he truly was a Turk who converted I wouldn't care less but this man is a 1000000% fraud he can't speak a word Turkish he can't even pronounce his own name.
Do any Calvinists actually look up what Paul's speaking about in the OT? I daresay none of you do, it's about nations. Gen 25:23 and Malachi 1:2-4 are what Paul's quoting--nations, Jews and Gentiles--Calvinists(and Arminians) take this passage out in a vacuum from it's context and historical issues that Paul was dealing with. Many of you ignore the first half of this chapter, and the last half--and the rest of the long argument Paul's making, Jewish misunderstanding of how Gentiles were saved.
The fact that you only post 37 seconds shows that he will theoretically explain himself after 38 seconds, but you just want to make him look bad. But of course you only post 37...
"Did God hate Esau because of what he did?" The answer, according to Paul, is "No." Mr. Caner needs to re-read verse 11, and this time, he should believe what it says regardless of his personal point of view. Perhaps he'll get fired from his current position - so what? Perhaps he'll have to apologize to many whom he has mislead - so what? Better to enter the kingdom of heaven a little embarrassed than to go to hell with your head held high.
God did not hate esau. he strongly disapproved of Esau. hatred in this instance is hyperbole. and why? elsewhere itsays if one does not hate ones parents one canntbe his disciple. but thisbreaches the 5th commandment. it is hyperbole.
besides, God is no respecter of persons. IOW he does not play favourites. calvinism does just this turning god into a capricious tyrant.
@Strefanasha If hate is hyperbole, maybe love is too. For he "loved" Jacob, maybe that's hyperbole.
Also, your "attack" on Calvinism, saying God is playing favorites, works against you, because of God chose jacob based on what Jacob did/earned/merited, then God is playing favorites. However, if God chooses one over another based on free grace and mercy, that is different altogether. Jacob and Esau deserve hell, and God saves one of them. That's sovereign mercy, not favorites.
lol it's funny that it says before either had done good or evil so that God's purpose and God's election may stand. Not by works, but Him that calls. Caner is a fatty fake. and regular Calvinists turn there not just "hyper" Calvinists
Um...did you read the entire context of Romans period? Calvinism strips this passage out of it's context and historical background ignoring all other Scripture that gives the clear meaning of this, it's about nations--Jews and Gentiles. Look up what Paul's quoting, he didn't just quote the OT for the fun of it--he expected his audience(Jewish Christians in that part) to know the Scriptures and what he was talking about.
O God you know that I can do as I WILL in all things.You do help a little if I want to GET SAVED,but only after I HAVE DECIDED.I own my own heart and you must not touch it,and I WILL Do AS I PLEASE ,so you can whisper ,whoo,and beg all you want,but how dare you touch MY WILL, So if I need you I WILL call you,but until I want your salvation, DO NOT bother me,I'll tell you when I'm ready.Your average Arminian
calvanism is straight from the pit of hell. it has done more damage to Gods character and teh church than almost any other heresy that satan has introduced.
It's funny when people say they reject the Calvinist view. How about the bible view? Does God elect, choose, predestinate or not, according to the bible?? The answer must be yes. It's written as with an iron pen said Spurgeon.
UNBELIEVABLE... This guy is a LIER! "even BEFORE they were born or had DONE anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose in election would stand, not by works but by his calling). ~ Romans 9:11 and according to this spin doctor of waco arminianism it was "because what Esau has done"... Here is your pick dear reader. The Word of God or the word of spin doctor, Dr. Ergun Caner...
@sirjames45 As a fellow "doctrines of grace" Christian, I would have to say to you, brother, that there have been plenty of fraudulent "Calvinists," e.g. Harold Camping, Westboro Baptists, etc. Sooooo, let's watch out for guilt by association, cause that goes both ways, and it is fair to none. (I'm not defending E. Caner.)
Now, I'm no genius or anything. But I've read Romans 9:11, and I just have to believe that Caner did not read it while preparing his sermon. Obviously the verse says that based on nothing good or bad that Esau had done!
Ergun Caner is a Turkish jew who is involved in KIDNAPING people to be MUTILATED for their ORGANS for sick jews who have very complicated Genetically inherited disease relating to their Blood,Eyes,Bones,Liver, Kidney,Heart , . And yet the organs mostly do NOT much to their sick body because the Genetical differences and Blood types,this makes them CRAZY to KIDNAP ANY PERSON UNTIL THEY FIND THE RIGHT ORGAN.
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The way you are harassing Dr. Caner is disgusting. Clearly, you know nothing about being a Christian. Despite your theological differences, you and Dr. Caner are brothers in Christ. Brothers do not treat each other this way! Shame on you!!!
1. I am not harassing by any stretch of the imagination... I have simply posted 37 seconds of a sermon, which is freely available online. I have not sought after Caner, nor have I hounded Liberty, Thomas Rd Baptist Church, or anyone related to the Caner family.
2. My "theological differences" here are not differences about simply Calvinism and Arminianism. My problem is that he posed a hypothetical question with an intended answer which is antithetical to not only the verses immediately preceding the passage he quoted, but also antithetical to the Gospel altogether.
For if God hated Esau for what Esau did, then by inference, God loved Jacob for what Jacob did...I pray this is not what Caner believes, but it is what he implied.
@echols66 well God had better well have hated easau for what he did and loved jacob for what he did. if you have a God that arbitrarily chooses who he loves and hates then 1. thats not the God of the bible and 2. that is no God who is truly just and holy. but more importantly to understand what paul is actually saying in Romans 9 you have to go to the sources he is quoting from to get the proper understanding.
3. Brothers do in fact call each other out on sin and misinterpretation of the Bible. That is the loving thing to do. It is also the loving thing to do to raise red flags to other Christians so that they do not commit the same exegetical ridiculousness. It would be the opposite of love for me to sit back and watch such horrible hermeneutics and be silent...
@echols66 yeah, as long as you are right... which there are a lot of people out there convinced they are right and are completely WRONG. maybe even you.
@solaphyde Because you dont make it a public event and try to bring him down. If you have a problem, don't make it public; take it up with ur brother/sister and dont try to bring them down and make urself look better
@platesonthewall I think it depends on the circumstance. If he's going to publically make bogus claims then people need to publically tell the truth. He did it to himself. What if people did tell him privately but he never listened until it was too late?
@BostonBreeze shouldn't being a Christian have a little to do with concern for the truth? Or are we supposed to just pretend everyone is right, even though they say different things, because we want to be 'loving' and treat them as brothers. I don't care who's up there preaching, if they misinterpret the bible they need to be exposed, even if they meant no harm.
And also, you do know Ergun Caner's story of being an x-muslim is very heavily fabricated, right? Watch the other video's on him...
@BostonBreeze A brother in Christ?This man is a fraud and a liar who makes Christians look so bad.Giving muslims exuse that their religion is right.Romans 9?Are u serious?BEFORE THE TWINS HAD DONE ANYTHING GOOD OR BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Key text.
@BostonBreeze This 'Doctor' does the exact same thing while claiming to have been Muslim for 18 years and converting to Christianity he doesn't even know the most fundamental beliefs of Islam. And it seems he may as well be a fraudulent Christian as well. How the hell do people like you listen to this guy?
@BostonBreeze Is it ok for someone to make a blatantly wrong statement that is refuted simply by looking at the Scripture that surrounds the text? Or better yet, is it ok for someone to close his Bible and not read the rest of the text so that they won't know how wrong he is?
The purpose of the word is not simply for uplifting it is for encouragement but also reproof and training in righteousness.
@tgillspy I see you deleted your lovely comment to me. Good idea, you wouldn't have lasted long in a debate. Repent, you're going to hell for blaspheming the Cross of Christ.
@tgillspy Yes, I know that you think I'm going to hell. But it's thoroughly refreshing to know that you are incapable of proving such a puerile statement with Holy Scripture.
I dare you. I'll just sit back and rest in the finished Work of Christ, which according to you is not enough to save anyone. You're the one who blasphemes the efficacy of Christ's suffering and death. You go ahead, and trust in your pusil 'sinner's prayer', which is no where to be found in the Bible, & trust in that.
@TroddinSod Stop being such a fool. You are the one who condemned me- You just got taste of your own medicine- since I just wanted to show you how stupid you attacks really are.....
@tgillspy Unfortunately, like a typical Arminian, you haven't the Biblical support to substantiate anything you say, that's why Arminianism and its cronies were rejected by all the protestant leaders over 450 years ago. The same heresies have only resurfaced and you're too ignorant and brainwashed to know any better. The record speaks: You first insulted me and you can't back up anything you say with the Bible. Now go back to sucking your thumb & worshiping Ergan Caner - a documented fraud. LOL!
@tgillspy " I never mentioned anything about a sinners prayer" Oh really!! So how do you make Jesus' Suffering and Death work for you, if all for whom He Suffered and Died will not be saved?
@TroddinSod If you are calvinist you not so much brainwashed but in theological kindergarten.You should grow up and lay hold on the Son of God of the cross of Christ .Reformed calvinism is deviation from the holy scriptures- I am sorry but you dont seem to see that
@tgillspy I find such comfort in your words, especially in the way you can't back up NOT ONE THING you say. Not let's talk about braiwashed. You can't provide a Biblical argument so you just chant ad hominem cliches inculcated into your brain by the theological nitwits you call your Pastors and Elders. Yeah, that's clear indicative behavior of a brainwashed numskull who relies on his own righteousness to make Jesus' suffering and death able to save him. Yep, that's brainwashed to the core.
@tgillspy .Though you are twisting the scriptures like most calvinist happen to do taking them out of intended context - surely you are not that blind. But you are well within the intellectual faculties that have been give you so that you may to see and understand the error of your ways and false doctrine-reasonably speaking.You have do have a mind and will.The scriptures are straight forward. The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance 2 Peter 3
@tgillspy You accuse me of twisting Scripture? Yet, you show no evidence! What Truth of God's Word have I ever twisted? Do you assume I have, without being able to substantiate the assumption with cogent evidence? Hmmm? You still write as if brainwashed. Now you posted 2Pet3, is this a verse I have somehow 'twisted'? I can rightfully affirm from the heart of my heart, that I completely embrace 2Peter2:3 as it plainly reads without any 'twist'.
@TroddinSod You dont believe christ died for everyone. The scripture in 2 peter3 that states that the Lord is not slack concerning his promise.But is longsuffering to usward not willing but that all should come to repentance....
@IDH77 "It’s about national Israel. See verse 3. Who according to the FLESH?" Nothing be more further from the proof. Rom 9:6-9 .....For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
@TroddinSod You must be calvinist ......You dont know what you are talking about. Calvinism is false heretical and erroneous doctrine .Stop being such a fool...
@IDH77 You've copied the opening statements of the Chapter, but it is not the main flow of thought throughout the chapter. Your conclusion that it is about the 'nation of Israel after the flesh' does not agree with the text one bit. Paul's central point in the passage is that the true Children of the Israel of God, are NOT AFTER THE FLESH. Therefore your conclusion is utterly erroneous. vs. 24 & 25 completely squash your conclusion. Watch this video. ' watch?v=QFWwu_zGlMA ' & the sequel.
@IDH77 "You tell me why when any Calvinist sees I.S.R.A.E.L. they think it spells C.H.U.R.C.H.?" So what does this mean: Rom 9:6 " For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" Hmmm? & Rom 9:25 " As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved."
The word church = ekklesia from ekkletos = called out = Elect. Isreal was 'called out of Egypt' = Church. Also, 'Holy Convocation' in O.T. Convocation = Called Out = Church.
@TroddinSod Romans 9:6-7 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the SEED OF ABRAHAM; but, "in Isaac your seed shall be called."
ISAAC = ISRAEL!
Verse 6 simply says that not all Jews believed God. I really don’t understand how Calvinist’s turn this into the Church.
See Genesis 15 for the GENUINE election talked about in this chapter.
@zanedover Yes... that's what Caner was saying. But like all charlatans, they only choose scriptures that will support their theology and to hades with the context. Try as he might, he can cannot erase the word 'elect' from the Bible, nor can he give a cogent explanation of God loving Jacob and hating Esau. He chalks it up to behavior, but that's not what scripture says. Caner has a serious problem with God's sovereignty. I guess that's why he thinks he can lie as much as he wants.
I think Mr. Caner missed something. The answer to his question is clearly found in verse 11 which says, " though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--"
I think Mr. Caner missed something. The answer to his question is clearly found in verse 11 which says, " though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--"
Now I will say SOMETIMES speaking the truth, involves their opinion being proved wrong, but just to call their opinion wrong and call them a "dickhead", is very judgmental, and is maliciously offending someone. As Christians, we shouldnt be a bigot, but if someone is offended by the truth, THAT is their problem.
Calvinists also take this verse greatly out of context. All Romans 9 is is Paul making the point that God is God and he will have compassion on who he wants so if he has chosen to have his word sent out to Gentiles who are they to argue? And despite what you think of ergun caner I dont think its the Christian like thing to do to belittle him or call him crude names. As Christians its our job to speak the truth not belittle others opinions or make assumptions of them.
I meant to add, not wrong based on the fact that he trained them, but that he trained them as a "former jihadist" who lived in the Mideast and presented himself as an expert, which he never was. And another things that got to me is, if he was raised in Turkey why can't he speak Turkish? I'm not Turkish or a Muslim, but was raised around Turks, and whatever he is trying to pass off in other vids is NOT Turkish, His intentions may have started out good, but lies took him down.
Well, his story had more holes in it than Swiss Cheese. At least he was relieved of his position last month as Dean of Liberty Baptist University after they ran their own investigation. Religion does not need any extra help to look bad.
He's lucky the state dept does not go after him after doing training session with the Marines in N.C. before deployment on the "protocols of jihad" .
@lucidity4 If anyone is paying close attention, Liberty University is in free fall mode. Just because he was demoted does not mean that he was outright fired. He still teaches classes there.
In fact, I am extremely skeptical of Jerry Falwell, Sr. having been truly saved before he passed on. I've seen his son Jonathan's sermons on the telly, and each one of them has been a sad display of wrongly dividing the Word of Truth.
"Before the children were born, NOR HAVING DONE ANY GOOD NOR EVIL, that the purpose of God according to election might stand.
What a filthy repugnant liar!
When I think of Ergun Caner, I have the hardest time thinking to myself, "But for the Grace of God, there go I". I could say it easily in almost any other situation. But I've never seen anyone reek 'reprobate' more than him. How wretched humanity truly is. Sigh, gasp, selah.
From what I gather on the net, this guy is a con-artist.
Do a search on him. The muslims post him under "comedy" because apparently, he (caner) can't even speak his arabic or any language correctly nor does he have the Islam facts right.
It's time Christians wake up, and learn to discern. Test everything. Just because someone comes in under the name "Christian" and tells a convincing story means he is telling the truth.
We are in the last days. Beware false prophets - our Lord has warned us
@moseslam Yes... Ergun Caner cannot distinguish truth from lies, so for anyone to think he could rightly discern the Bible is foolish. Sadly, he does have people who have forgotten to keep their eyes on JESUS and prefer to worship a serial liar. He is a scourge on those of us who love God. I pray he will repent, but at this point, nothing short of an in-your-face intervention will reach Caner. He is spiritually dead and morally corrupt. It sad to see. But we were warned about the wolves.
hmm. that seems logical. I believe He is correct in the fact that those 3 are possibilities. the only problem is, many possible things can happen, the question then becomes...what really happened.
lets look 2 verses prior to the verse he quoted, Romans 9:11 "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—" lets notice, "not yet born" "had done anything good or bad"
The REAL tragedy of it is these guys mutilate the gospel of Christ until it is abc's and 123's. There is nothing glorious, eternal, divine or majestic to it.
If people would turn OFF the nonsense they listen to and just read the Bible, without a head full of presuppositions and doctrinal bias, you CANNOT come to any other conclusion that God has predestined us apart from works.
@urbansamurai79 I actually come from an arminian background and would have defended it to the death with all my proof texting and misunderstanding of scripture. I did it in ignorance thinking I was somehow defending God (I roll my eyes at this now, but think most Arminians subconsciously feel this way).
But once I abandoned silly devotions to doctrinal errors the glory of God literally opened up to me in the bible. I pray others would abandon this garbage theology.
The concept of election is written on every page of the Bible. You don't need to twist scripture to substantiate it. It appears you need to on order to refute it however.
For this is what the promise said:'About this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son.' And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man our forefather Isaac,THOUGH THEY WERE NOY YET BORN AND HAD DONE NOTHING EITHER GOOD OR BAD-IN ORDER THAT GOD'S PURPOSE OF ELECTION MIGHT CONTINUE,NOT BECAUSE OF WORKS BUT BECAUSE OF HIS CALL-she was told "The older will serve the younger" As it is written"Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated"
God doesnt hate like humans do, he hates SIN he hes a jelos god wouldnt you be if you created every thing and your fallen angel satan converted ;people to wrong faiths
I think some the sad excuse for Calvinists here are a little upset at him disrupting their false ideology.....too bad so sad....Lets all cry a river and try to degrade his character because you like Mormons and J.W. twist the scripture to suit your needs.
Ahh! So God hates based upon what we do? Does God therefore love us because of what we do? How is that not works salvation. It was nice, at least, to hear him admit that God hates people. What a knucklehead!
@fivepointbaptist Hey bro,just wanted to run something by you.Since Arminians claim the Calvinist God is not the God of scripture and after being shown numerous times that He is,doesn't this mean that those who deny Him are atheists,in the sense that they have chosen an idol over the God of scriptures?
@fivepointbaptist Amen,this certainly goes along with scripture.I know a lot of Calvinists believe that Arminianism is just a "SUB UNDERSTANDING",but I really believe that scripture teaches it is another gospel and god.
As argumentation from a man appointed as seminary professor, that was just... sad. This is a man training the next generation of preachers and apologists? GET REAL, PEOPLE!!!
I hope, as the weeping E Michael Caner is driven away from LU in utter disgrace, someone plays this excerpt over the intercom. It's just *so* sad.
expose liar Ergun's analysis of Romans 9. The response is simply to get Caner to read Romans 9:11 which states: "Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) "
@servent321 All translations of Romans 9 SAYS THE SAME THING! Even a bastardize version like the NWT. Get off the this stupid Muslim argument, it bears no validity to anyone with a brain.
@zubairnetwork Actually he's saying "Esau" - Jacob's twin brother. In the book of Romans the apostle Paul is addressing the 1st Century church in Rome and he's explaining some things to them. In chapter 9 he's specifically talking about the sovereignty of God and he refers them back to Old Testament scriptures to show them how God reveals Himself through His Providence. Charles Spurgeon explained the truth and implications of that passage far better than this man.
@servent321 thanks but i know that i am a muslim. i was talking about the (ee-saw) the way he said it he called him self devout ex Muslim but can't pronounce ISA (pbuh) correctly this fat fake ex Muslim dude is out of his mind...
We believe in the doctrine of the trinity even though there is NO MENTION OF IT in the bible, but election...ya...its all over Romans. not some allusion to it...and we ignore it due to our failure to understand its true meaning. I am not saying the trinity is wrong, just the fact that calvinism is condemned...
I have seen this and other videos from people that teach at LU and seminary. I will not be doing my post graduate studies here, I will turn to Westminster or Biblical seminary. Thank you
Hmm, Caner seemed to have missed the text prior to verse 14
9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
I'm an atheist, an apostate Christian. When I was Christian, I would reject Calvinism because I believed in the culturally accepted attitude that "God loves everyone".
Now having the time to look at the Bible more closely and reading it over, Calvinism is definitely true. The Bible god definitely hates Esau the person, not the stuff Esau did, otherwise it would only say that.
The Bible is ripe with Calvinistic passages. I mean, come on, you're just in denial not to see it.
i hate being one of those people who does nothing but cite greek and hebrew (i think it makes you look like a bible snob), but the original language is something that has to be taken into account. the original text did not say God hated Esau just because he was Esau. it simply says God did not choose Esau. We have to look at the text in it's original context in order to better understand it today. it's original context does not support anything calvinistic.
@crem004 it is translated as the word "hated" in english. however, language evolves over time. the word gay did not mean anything but happy 50 years ago. that doesn't mean that "have a gay old time" from the flinstones theme song means homosexuality. in the same way that the word gay has changed and had a different past meaning, so did the word translated "hated" in the greek. it is not the best translation, and did not take the same meaning then that we ascribe to "hate" today.
i also think the bible is ripe with calvinistic sounding passages. it is also ripe with passages saying we should sacrifice bulls and not cook goats in their mother's milk. the overall message of the bible, when every passage in the correct context comes together, is the fact that man rebelled against God, but has the free will to decide whether or not to accept His offer of reconciliation through Christ.
It is a gift that is offered to all people, not just those God chooses to give it to. When it comes to the hardening of hearts and passages like 2nd Thessalonians 2:11, there has to be a proper understanding of what exactly it means to have a heart hardened. God does not just randomly make someone incapable of faith, He simply allows them to pursue the desires of their hearts. Having a hardened heart simply means God has allowed you to pursue their wicked desires. He lets them follow their heart
That Timothy passage you pointed out is interesting. I don't think any interpretation is available for the Calvinistic passages, but this passage presents yet another contradiction in the Bible.
when it comes to the passage in Jeremiah, keep it mind that the comment about God being a deceiver is coming from a man who faced many persecutions in his day. When he was called be a prophet, he assumed that his message would be listened to. He is almost in the same position as Job: wondering why He (a prophet) is being persecuted and ignored. In that sense, he may have thought God deceived him by calling him as a prophet, knowing that the people would not listen to him. We can agree to
disagree, but I think when interpreted correctly, the Bible does not contradict itself. Starting points determine ending points, and when the starting point of someone's thought is Calvinism, then it does contradict itself. However, when the starting point is not a biased calvinistic approach, the Bible comes together without contradiction. The only reason I believe the Bible would contradict itself would be from incorrect interpretation, i.e. Calvinism. We can go back and forth. You obviously
do have a knowledge of scripture, which I have high respect for. However, with the correct interpretation and study, I think your conclusions may be different. Either way, we will both have solid arguments for either side. When it comes down to it, I still go back to the 5 fundamentals as the most important things to understand regarding scripture. If someone believes these, I could care less if they are Calvinist or Arminian. I believe God will work that out. Good arguments though. It is
refreshing to see someone like yourself (an apostate Christian) who has such a respect and understanding for scripture. Keep learning, and I hope your views about your faith (or lack there of) will open again to the idea of the God of the Bible. My final argument would be this: If Calvinism is the correct interpretation, then you would still be a Christian. The fifth "point" of Calvinism is once saved always saved, making it impossible for someone to be apostate. Just a thought. Take care.
No, the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is utterly false. The problem with that is the unfounded assumption that you're saved. Declaring Christ Lord and believing it, and being in his service and making sacrifices in his name are not enough (Matt 7:21-23).
To be saved, one must do the will of the Father. To consistently not do it, as you and every Christian I have ever met has not, means you and I would burn if this religion were true.
however, the five points of calvinism utterly collapse if all 5 are not true. calvinism is an air-tight system, and each "point" must be joined with the other 4 to make sense. So to say that Calvinism is true except for once saved always saved makes the whole system collapse on itself. as far as "they weren't really saved", that is an argument from silence that scripture in no way supports. there is no scriptural evidence for that. and in the "hall of faith" in the book of Hebrews
, the Bible mentions people who are in Heaven with God who did not completely follow the will of God at all times. Thus, Jesus is not saying those who do not perfectly follow His will are not saved. He simply is saying that people must allow Him to be not only Savior, but Lord as well. This is where the grace we mentioned from Ephesians comes in.
1John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.
@crem004 you failed to cite the verse in the same book, "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son". I think it's safe to say that Ergun Caner is not denying that Jesus is the Christ. Saying he is one of John's antichrists is completely taking scripture out of context. It is sad that a man who proclaims Jesus as Lord is being called an antichrist all because he does not subscribe the calvinistic theology.
@benhccu2011 Haha, sorry I wasn't referring Ergun Caner as an anti-Chist. Sorry,I should have shown that I was referring to your statement about "one saved always saved" and your denial of "they weren't really saved."
@crem004 ha understood. sorry for the miscommunication. I can see where the theory comes from, but do not think there is clear-cut scriptural support for it. However, I do think there is support for losing salvation. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their
@crem004 loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace".
While this verse is widely debated, the one thing it does verify is that someone can lose their faith. Someone who has met all the requirements above (tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, etc.) sounds like someone who was genuinely saved.
Phil 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. . . 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
@crem004 we will not be judged when we die based on how many points of TULIP we subscribe to. we will be judged by our confession of Jesus as our Lord and Savior. This is clearly one of those times when people view their theological school of thought take precedence over the Bible.
We better read the Bible for ourselves instead of trusting Ergun Caner's citation of Romans 9, which in fact says the opposite of what Caner claims:
Rom 9:11 - For [Esau and Jacob] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, NOT of works, but of him that calleth.
Reformiert1689 1 week ago
All this dimwitted soul needed to do was to actually READ the chapter to find out the answer.
It says PLAINLY that it was BEFORE Jacob or Esau were born, BEFORE either of them had done ANYTHING right or wrong, that God chose to love Jacob and to hate Esau, FOR THE EXPLICIT PURPOSE of His own sovereign right and will, and to show that it has NOTHING to do with whether one "runs or will" but it is GOD who chooses to have mercy upon one, and to harden another. Ergun Caner is an imbecile.
stegokitty 1 month ago
God should of hated Jacob for what he did too.
TheUndeservingSon 2 months ago
How come DrOakley1689 doesn't have his comments on? guess he got tired of hearing the truth.
MrOphachew 2 months ago
When God stated that he loved Jacob and hated Esau its old testament and if u read in Malachi 1:1 God is talking about nations not salvation of them....In Gen 25:21-23 is talking about two nations in her womb. What God did was because Esau gave up his birthright to Jacob God chose Jacob over Esau. When stated in Romans 9 it has absolutely nothing to do with their salvation. ------- And God does not hate people he hates sin--------
dustinp206 2 months ago
@dustinp206 Really? Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, and a whole host of other verses, yet God doesn't hate people? Perhaps you think that the wine in the bible was only grape juice as well?
Wunji1 1 month ago
Why are you people debating Christianity over what this man says? He's FAKE ex Muslim, FAKE Turk.
I'm a Turk my self .. If he truly was a Turk who converted I wouldn't care less but this man is a 1000000% fraud he can't speak a word Turkish he can't even pronounce his own name.
3choBlaster 2 months ago
Do any Calvinists actually look up what Paul's speaking about in the OT? I daresay none of you do, it's about nations. Gen 25:23 and Malachi 1:2-4 are what Paul's quoting--nations, Jews and Gentiles--Calvinists(and Arminians) take this passage out in a vacuum from it's context and historical issues that Paul was dealing with. Many of you ignore the first half of this chapter, and the last half--and the rest of the long argument Paul's making, Jewish misunderstanding of how Gentiles were saved.
droptozro 3 months ago
The fact that you only post 37 seconds shows that he will theoretically explain himself after 38 seconds, but you just want to make him look bad. But of course you only post 37...
platesonthewall 4 months ago 2
"Did God hate Esau because of what he did?" The answer, according to Paul, is "No." Mr. Caner needs to re-read verse 11, and this time, he should believe what it says regardless of his personal point of view. Perhaps he'll get fired from his current position - so what? Perhaps he'll have to apologize to many whom he has mislead - so what? Better to enter the kingdom of heaven a little embarrassed than to go to hell with your head held high.
cheagan 4 months ago
God did not hate esau. he strongly disapproved of Esau. hatred in this instance is hyperbole. and why? elsewhere itsays if one does not hate ones parents one canntbe his disciple. but thisbreaches the 5th commandment. it is hyperbole.
besides, God is no respecter of persons. IOW he does not play favourites. calvinism does just this turning god into a capricious tyrant.
so once more this passage is hyperbole
Strefanasha 4 months ago
@Strefanasha If hate is hyperbole, maybe love is too. For he "loved" Jacob, maybe that's hyperbole.
Also, your "attack" on Calvinism, saying God is playing favorites, works against you, because of God chose jacob based on what Jacob did/earned/merited, then God is playing favorites. However, if God chooses one over another based on free grace and mercy, that is different altogether. Jacob and Esau deserve hell, and God saves one of them. That's sovereign mercy, not favorites.
skalapunk 4 months ago
lol it's funny that it says before either had done good or evil so that God's purpose and God's election may stand. Not by works, but Him that calls. Caner is a fatty fake. and regular Calvinists turn there not just "hyper" Calvinists
blakodeel 5 months ago
Ummm... did this guy read the entire context of Romans 9? Because it's pretty hard to deny the Calvinistic viewpoint expressed here.
Outrider74 5 months ago
@Outrider74
Um...did you read the entire context of Romans period? Calvinism strips this passage out of it's context and historical background ignoring all other Scripture that gives the clear meaning of this, it's about nations--Jews and Gentiles. Look up what Paul's quoting, he didn't just quote the OT for the fun of it--he expected his audience(Jewish Christians in that part) to know the Scriptures and what he was talking about.
droptozro 3 months ago
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It says nothing about what esau did.
October31st1517 5 months ago
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O God you know that I can do as I WILL in all things.You do help a little if I want to GET SAVED,but only after I HAVE DECIDED.I own my own heart and you must not touch it,and I WILL Do AS I PLEASE ,so you can whisper ,whoo,and beg all you want,but how dare you touch MY WILL, So if I need you I WILL call you,but until I want your salvation, DO NOT bother me,I'll tell you when I'm ready.Your average Arminian
CBALLEN 5 months ago
Bkhasha Owtara Mowtara Seeturu!! :D
Cracks me up so hard!
nodoctoryet 6 months ago
calvanism is straight from the pit of hell. it has done more damage to Gods character and teh church than almost any other heresy that satan has introduced.
TheHellbinder 6 months ago
Thank God this charlatan has been exposed !!!
daleyboy77 7 months ago
this guy is a lying fruad
djkhaled412 7 months ago
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@djkhaled412
"this guy is a lying fruad"
All religious people are.
Pigdowndog 6 months ago
@djkhaled412 I can see honesty on this guy. Before you say something dishonest to others, please check yourself first.
wall1011 5 months ago
It's funny when people say they reject the Calvinist view. How about the bible view? Does God elect, choose, predestinate or not, according to the bible?? The answer must be yes. It's written as with an iron pen said Spurgeon.
joeforHistruth 7 months ago
at least he's actually talking about god here, instead of himself for a change
theveryelect24 7 months ago
This guy is the ANTICHRIST
MeTaLiXe 8 months ago
UNBELIEVABLE... This guy is a LIER! "even BEFORE they were born or had DONE anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose in election would stand, not by works but by his calling). ~ Romans 9:11 and according to this spin doctor of waco arminianism it was "because what Esau has done"... Here is your pick dear reader. The Word of God or the word of spin doctor, Dr. Ergun Caner...
MilhamaH777 8 months ago
I'm a person that rejects the c-ist view of Romans 9 but having said that is question is a terrible one.
faithandpractice 8 months ago
So Caner is a fraud AND an Arminian........shocking.
sirjames45 9 months ago
@sirjames45 As a fellow "doctrines of grace" Christian, I would have to say to you, brother, that there have been plenty of fraudulent "Calvinists," e.g. Harold Camping, Westboro Baptists, etc. Sooooo, let's watch out for guilt by association, cause that goes both ways, and it is fair to none. (I'm not defending E. Caner.)
GracetoThee 9 months ago
Dr. Clown...!
sigimex 9 months ago
???
Luke 19:27 "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"
Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword".
kaled277 9 months ago
This guy sounds like a good hyper-arminian.
scotttxxx 10 months ago
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scotttxxx 10 months ago
FATSO!
glower125 10 months ago 2
Now, I'm no genius or anything. But I've read Romans 9:11, and I just have to believe that Caner did not read it while preparing his sermon. Obviously the verse says that based on nothing good or bad that Esau had done!
jmmanley 10 months ago
Ergun Caner is a Turkish jew who is involved in KIDNAPING people to be MUTILATED for their ORGANS for sick jews who have very complicated Genetically inherited disease relating to their Blood,Eyes,Bones,Liver, Kidney,Heart , . And yet the organs mostly do NOT much to their sick body because the Genetical differences and Blood types,this makes them CRAZY to KIDNAP ANY PERSON UNTIL THEY FIND THE RIGHT ORGAN.
Muhammed140 1 year ago
@Muhammed140 ehhhhh probably not lol. hes a fuckin dick licker for sure though.
nikesb2406 9 months ago
owh this Ergun "bloody bald bollock" Caner the guy from youtube.com/watch?v=MRDyOaCJ3t0 ...a fraud liar idiots pathetic person... shame on him
SuperHardPoop 1 year ago
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MrTed38 1 year ago
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The way you are harassing Dr. Caner is disgusting. Clearly, you know nothing about being a Christian. Despite your theological differences, you and Dr. Caner are brothers in Christ. Brothers do not treat each other this way! Shame on you!!!
BostonBreeze 1 year ago
@BostonBreeze
1. I am not harassing by any stretch of the imagination... I have simply posted 37 seconds of a sermon, which is freely available online. I have not sought after Caner, nor have I hounded Liberty, Thomas Rd Baptist Church, or anyone related to the Caner family.
echols66 1 year ago 17
@BostonBreeze
2. My "theological differences" here are not differences about simply Calvinism and Arminianism. My problem is that he posed a hypothetical question with an intended answer which is antithetical to not only the verses immediately preceding the passage he quoted, but also antithetical to the Gospel altogether.
For if God hated Esau for what Esau did, then by inference, God loved Jacob for what Jacob did...I pray this is not what Caner believes, but it is what he implied.
echols66 1 year ago 16
@echols66 well God had better well have hated easau for what he did and loved jacob for what he did. if you have a God that arbitrarily chooses who he loves and hates then 1. thats not the God of the bible and 2. that is no God who is truly just and holy. but more importantly to understand what paul is actually saying in Romans 9 you have to go to the sources he is quoting from to get the proper understanding.
TheHellbinder 6 months ago
@BostonBreeze
3. Brothers do in fact call each other out on sin and misinterpretation of the Bible. That is the loving thing to do. It is also the loving thing to do to raise red flags to other Christians so that they do not commit the same exegetical ridiculousness. It would be the opposite of love for me to sit back and watch such horrible hermeneutics and be silent...
My apologies if that offends you...
echols66 1 year ago 14
@echols66 yeah, as long as you are right... which there are a lot of people out there convinced they are right and are completely WRONG. maybe even you.
TheHellbinder 6 months ago
@echols66 Yes, brothers do call each other out...but NOT on youtube bucko
platesonthewall 5 months ago
@platesonthewall Why not youtube?
solaphyde 5 months ago
@solaphyde Because you dont make it a public event and try to bring him down. If you have a problem, don't make it public; take it up with ur brother/sister and dont try to bring them down and make urself look better
platesonthewall 4 months ago
@platesonthewall I think it depends on the circumstance. If he's going to publically make bogus claims then people need to publically tell the truth. He did it to himself. What if people did tell him privately but he never listened until it was too late?
solaphyde 4 months ago
@BostonBreeze shouldn't being a Christian have a little to do with concern for the truth? Or are we supposed to just pretend everyone is right, even though they say different things, because we want to be 'loving' and treat them as brothers. I don't care who's up there preaching, if they misinterpret the bible they need to be exposed, even if they meant no harm.
And also, you do know Ergun Caner's story of being an x-muslim is very heavily fabricated, right? Watch the other video's on him...
oryxfreeride 1 year ago
@BostonBreeze A brother in Christ?This man is a fraud and a liar who makes Christians look so bad.Giving muslims exuse that their religion is right.Romans 9?Are u serious?BEFORE THE TWINS HAD DONE ANYTHING GOOD OR BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Key text.
ctsfinestjon 10 months ago
@BostonBreeze This 'Doctor' does the exact same thing while claiming to have been Muslim for 18 years and converting to Christianity he doesn't even know the most fundamental beliefs of Islam. And it seems he may as well be a fraudulent Christian as well. How the hell do people like you listen to this guy?
DeaththeBlade 7 months ago
@BostonBreeze Is it ok for someone to make a blatantly wrong statement that is refuted simply by looking at the Scripture that surrounds the text? Or better yet, is it ok for someone to close his Bible and not read the rest of the text so that they won't know how wrong he is?
The purpose of the word is not simply for uplifting it is for encouragement but also reproof and training in righteousness.
TheRdmin 5 months ago
"Did God hate esau before the foundation of the world or did God hate esau because he knew what Esau would do?" God answers it very clearly in 9:11
pandaman123213 1 year ago
The real trouble is that Romans 9 is that it is not about the church at all!
It’s about national Israel. See verse 3. Who according to the FLESH?
Genesis 15.
So it's about the Jewish Old Covenant not about Christian election at all.
Calvinism is guilty of eisegesis!
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 You are right....
tgillspy 1 year ago
@tgillspy I see you deleted your lovely comment to me. Good idea, you wouldn't have lasted long in a debate. Repent, you're going to hell for blaspheming the Cross of Christ.
TroddinSod 1 year ago
@TroddinSod I didnt delete your comment at all.It was just a typo error.....
tgillspy 1 year ago
@tgillspy Yes, I know that you think I'm going to hell. But it's thoroughly refreshing to know that you are incapable of proving such a puerile statement with Holy Scripture.
I dare you. I'll just sit back and rest in the finished Work of Christ, which according to you is not enough to save anyone. You're the one who blasphemes the efficacy of Christ's suffering and death. You go ahead, and trust in your pusil 'sinner's prayer', which is no where to be found in the Bible, & trust in that.
TroddinSod 1 year ago
@TroddinSod Stop being such a fool. You are the one who condemned me- You just got taste of your own medicine- since I just wanted to show you how stupid you attacks really are.....
tgillspy 1 year ago
@tgillspy Unfortunately, like a typical Arminian, you haven't the Biblical support to substantiate anything you say, that's why Arminianism and its cronies were rejected by all the protestant leaders over 450 years ago. The same heresies have only resurfaced and you're too ignorant and brainwashed to know any better. The record speaks: You first insulted me and you can't back up anything you say with the Bible. Now go back to sucking your thumb & worshiping Ergan Caner - a documented fraud. LOL!
TroddinSod 1 year ago
@TroddinSod I never mentioned anything about a sinners prayer..You are obviously very prideful and presumptuous...
tgillspy 1 year ago
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@tgillspy " I never mentioned anything about a sinners prayer" Oh really!! So how do you make Jesus' Suffering and Death work for you, if all for whom He Suffered and Died will not be saved?
TroddinSod 1 year ago
@TroddinSod If you are calvinist you not so much brainwashed but in theological kindergarten.You should grow up and lay hold on the Son of God of the cross of Christ .Reformed calvinism is deviation from the holy scriptures- I am sorry but you dont seem to see that
tgillspy 1 year ago
@tgillspy I find such comfort in your words, especially in the way you can't back up NOT ONE THING you say. Not let's talk about braiwashed. You can't provide a Biblical argument so you just chant ad hominem cliches inculcated into your brain by the theological nitwits you call your Pastors and Elders. Yeah, that's clear indicative behavior of a brainwashed numskull who relies on his own righteousness to make Jesus' suffering and death able to save him. Yep, that's brainwashed to the core.
TroddinSod 1 year ago
@tgillspy .Though you are twisting the scriptures like most calvinist happen to do taking them out of intended context - surely you are not that blind. But you are well within the intellectual faculties that have been give you so that you may to see and understand the error of your ways and false doctrine-reasonably speaking.You have do have a mind and will.The scriptures are straight forward. The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance 2 Peter 3
tgillspy 1 year ago
@tgillspy You accuse me of twisting Scripture? Yet, you show no evidence! What Truth of God's Word have I ever twisted? Do you assume I have, without being able to substantiate the assumption with cogent evidence? Hmmm? You still write as if brainwashed. Now you posted 2Pet3, is this a verse I have somehow 'twisted'? I can rightfully affirm from the heart of my heart, that I completely embrace 2Peter2:3 as it plainly reads without any 'twist'.
Pray, tell me how I have twisted it?
TroddinSod 1 year ago
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@TroddinSod You dont believe christ died for everyone. The scripture in 2 peter3 that states that the Lord is not slack concerning his promise.But is longsuffering to usward not willing but that all should come to repentance....
tgillspy 1 year ago
@IDH77 "It’s about national Israel. See verse 3. Who according to the FLESH?" Nothing be more further from the proof. Rom 9:6-9 .....For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
So, what was that about eisegesis?
TroddinSod 1 year ago
@TroddinSod You must be calvinist ......You dont know what you are talking about. Calvinism is false heretical and erroneous doctrine .Stop being such a fool...
tgillspy 1 year ago
@TroddinSod Yes it is eisegesis. Christians were Paul’s brethren according to the SPIRIT not the FLESH. His countrymen!
Mention of Pharaoh = Israel! Was it Christians who were in Egypt or Israel?
Who received the oracles of God? Israel!
Who received the Law of God? Israel!
Who received the covenants (plural) of God? Israel!
Therefore the entire chapter is about Israel not the Church.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 You've copied the opening statements of the Chapter, but it is not the main flow of thought throughout the chapter. Your conclusion that it is about the 'nation of Israel after the flesh' does not agree with the text one bit. Paul's central point in the passage is that the true Children of the Israel of God, are NOT AFTER THE FLESH. Therefore your conclusion is utterly erroneous. vs. 24 & 25 completely squash your conclusion. Watch this video. ' watch?v=QFWwu_zGlMA ' & the sequel.
TroddinSod 1 year ago
@TroddinSod if you are calvinist- you are NOT right with God......
tgillspy 1 year ago
@TroddinSod You tell me why when any Calvinist sees I.S.R.A.E.L. they think it spells C.H.U.R.C.H.?
What we’re talking about is different ways of interpreting the Bible. I use the Grammatical Historical Method and you use the allegorical method.
With your method you can make the Bible say what you want while people who use my method are after what the apostle ACTUALLY meant.
Whenever Paul used the word Israel he meant the Jewish people not the Church!
Israel always means Israel!
IDH77 1 year ago
@TroddinSod Yes I know about this man I have criticised him for being Pelegian, which is simply the exact opposite error to Calvinism.
By the way I am not an Arminian either. Please don’t bore me by screaming that I must be since I am not a Calvinist.
I am simply an ordinary Bible believer who had never even heard of Jacob Arminius until I came across Calvinism.
IDH77 1 year ago
@TroddinSod The main flow of thought of chapters 9, 10 and 11 are the Jews.
Romans 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
IDH77 1 year ago
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@IDH77 "You tell me why when any Calvinist sees I.S.R.A.E.L. they think it spells C.H.U.R.C.H.?" So what does this mean: Rom 9:6 " For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" Hmmm? & Rom 9:25 " As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved."
The word church = ekklesia from ekkletos = called out = Elect. Isreal was 'called out of Egypt' = Church. Also, 'Holy Convocation' in O.T. Convocation = Called Out = Church.
TroddinSod 1 year ago
@TroddinSod Romans 9:6-7 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the SEED OF ABRAHAM; but, "in Isaac your seed shall be called."
ISAAC = ISRAEL!
Verse 6 simply says that not all Jews believed God. I really don’t understand how Calvinist’s turn this into the Church.
See Genesis 15 for the GENUINE election talked about in this chapter.
IDH77 1 year ago
He was stating that that was what a Calvanist would say and how they would take it out of context.
zanedover 1 year ago
@zanedover Yes... that's what Caner was saying. But like all charlatans, they only choose scriptures that will support their theology and to hades with the context. Try as he might, he can cannot erase the word 'elect' from the Bible, nor can he give a cogent explanation of God loving Jacob and hating Esau. He chalks it up to behavior, but that's not what scripture says. Caner has a serious problem with God's sovereignty. I guess that's why he thinks he can lie as much as he wants.
SkiesVibrant 1 year ago
This guy is fake as they come .As a Turk i can tell you You don't call your father ( Abi )
Meaning Older Brother .unless you want to get your head kick in .lol
I did not understand a word of Turkish that came out of his mouth .
Cemukay 1 year ago
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I think Mr. Caner missed something. The answer to his question is clearly found in verse 11 which says, " though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--"
jghart5 1 year ago
I think Mr. Caner missed something. The answer to his question is clearly found in verse 11 which says, " though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--"
jghart5 1 year ago
check this fake out on -EX MUSLIM Ergun Michael Caner Demotion at Liberty University.
sulyman751 1 year ago
Now I will say SOMETIMES speaking the truth, involves their opinion being proved wrong, but just to call their opinion wrong and call them a "dickhead", is very judgmental, and is maliciously offending someone. As Christians, we shouldnt be a bigot, but if someone is offended by the truth, THAT is their problem.
LucidusNovo 1 year ago
Calvinists also take this verse greatly out of context. All Romans 9 is is Paul making the point that God is God and he will have compassion on who he wants so if he has chosen to have his word sent out to Gentiles who are they to argue? And despite what you think of ergun caner I dont think its the Christian like thing to do to belittle him or call him crude names. As Christians its our job to speak the truth not belittle others opinions or make assumptions of them.
LucidusNovo 1 year ago
I meant to add, not wrong based on the fact that he trained them, but that he trained them as a "former jihadist" who lived in the Mideast and presented himself as an expert, which he never was. And another things that got to me is, if he was raised in Turkey why can't he speak Turkish? I'm not Turkish or a Muslim, but was raised around Turks, and whatever he is trying to pass off in other vids is NOT Turkish, His intentions may have started out good, but lies took him down.
lucidity4 1 year ago
Well, his story had more holes in it than Swiss Cheese. At least he was relieved of his position last month as Dean of Liberty Baptist University after they ran their own investigation. Religion does not need any extra help to look bad.
He's lucky the state dept does not go after him after doing training session with the Marines in N.C. before deployment on the "protocols of jihad" .
lucidity4 1 year ago
@lucidity4 If anyone is paying close attention, Liberty University is in free fall mode. Just because he was demoted does not mean that he was outright fired. He still teaches classes there.
In fact, I am extremely skeptical of Jerry Falwell, Sr. having been truly saved before he passed on. I've seen his son Jonathan's sermons on the telly, and each one of them has been a sad display of wrongly dividing the Word of Truth.
APSOC38 1 year ago
This man doesn't even know enough about Christianity to even go
up and speak to the public. Lol and he claims he's an ex- Muslim.
BIG FAT LIE that's the only true thing about it.
MuslimahUnity 1 year ago
what a stupid fraud !
msfkdz 1 year ago
Mohammad said in last days the suckers who is will speak to nations !
pulman7 1 year ago
Caner is a fat bastard! I've seen him in the cemetery of Virginia, not visiting a loved one who died, but picking grave yard soil, yeah good times.
KKKristianWitch 1 year ago
"Before the children were born, NOR HAVING DONE ANY GOOD NOR EVIL, that the purpose of God according to election might stand.
What a filthy repugnant liar!
When I think of Ergun Caner, I have the hardest time thinking to myself, "But for the Grace of God, there go I". I could say it easily in almost any other situation. But I've never seen anyone reek 'reprobate' more than him. How wretched humanity truly is. Sigh, gasp, selah.
TroddinSod 1 year ago
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tgillspy 1 year ago
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@TroddinSod Calvinism is the doctrine of hirelings
tgillspy 1 year ago
uhm... he hated him and that hate was displayed in the passive wrath of God by letting essau roam free unchecked into his own destruction.
dude, thats bible 101.
anonazero 1 year ago 2
@anonazero well said
educatedthug15 1 year ago
From what I gather on the net, this guy is a con-artist.
Do a search on him. The muslims post him under "comedy" because apparently, he (caner) can't even speak his arabic or any language correctly nor does he have the Islam facts right.
It's time Christians wake up, and learn to discern. Test everything. Just because someone comes in under the name "Christian" and tells a convincing story means he is telling the truth.
We are in the last days. Beware false prophets - our Lord has warned us
moseslam 1 year ago 13
@moseslam Yes... Ergun Caner cannot distinguish truth from lies, so for anyone to think he could rightly discern the Bible is foolish. Sadly, he does have people who have forgotten to keep their eyes on JESUS and prefer to worship a serial liar. He is a scourge on those of us who love God. I pray he will repent, but at this point, nothing short of an in-your-face intervention will reach Caner. He is spiritually dead and morally corrupt. It sad to see. But we were warned about the wolves.
SkiesVibrant 1 year ago
hmm. that seems logical. I believe He is correct in the fact that those 3 are possibilities. the only problem is, many possible things can happen, the question then becomes...what really happened.
lets look 2 verses prior to the verse he quoted, Romans 9:11 "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—" lets notice, "not yet born" "had done anything good or bad"
npotts89 1 year ago
And this guy has a doctorate? In WHAT?!!
The REAL tragedy of it is these guys mutilate the gospel of Christ until it is abc's and 123's. There is nothing glorious, eternal, divine or majestic to it.
If people would turn OFF the nonsense they listen to and just read the Bible, without a head full of presuppositions and doctrinal bias, you CANNOT come to any other conclusion that God has predestined us apart from works.
urbansamurai79 1 year ago
@urbansamurai79 I actually come from an arminian background and would have defended it to the death with all my proof texting and misunderstanding of scripture. I did it in ignorance thinking I was somehow defending God (I roll my eyes at this now, but think most Arminians subconsciously feel this way).
But once I abandoned silly devotions to doctrinal errors the glory of God literally opened up to me in the bible. I pray others would abandon this garbage theology.
urbansamurai79 1 year ago 2
The concept of election is written on every page of the Bible. You don't need to twist scripture to substantiate it. It appears you need to on order to refute it however.
paullywallee 1 year ago
@paullywallee Amen..
urbansamurai79 1 year ago
@OwaisbinAmir
yeh i agree with u there bro infact i just watched this fat bastards his recitation of the Quran and i was cracking up big time LOL
IslamRulesTheWorld1 1 year ago
Rom. 9:9-13 (caps is my emphasis)
For this is what the promise said:'About this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son.' And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man our forefather Isaac,THOUGH THEY WERE NOY YET BORN AND HAD DONE NOTHING EITHER GOOD OR BAD-IN ORDER THAT GOD'S PURPOSE OF ELECTION MIGHT CONTINUE,NOT BECAUSE OF WORKS BUT BECAUSE OF HIS CALL-she was told "The older will serve the younger" As it is written"Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated"
ObeyTheGospelOrDie 1 year ago
this man is totally crazy!
HumbleUtubeuser 1 year ago
Christianity is a superstitious belief, hollow belief, and the opium of the people.
BiblesOnLine 1 year ago
@BiblesOnLine It's kinda like Marxism in that way.
abe2517 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
he is a liar and just trying to make money. i dont give him any importance.
msiddiqui135 1 year ago
he is a liar and just trying to make money. i dont give him any importance.
msiddiqui135 1 year ago
What in the world is a "good hyper-Calvinist"????
YahyaSnow 1 year ago
God doesnt hate like humans do, he hates SIN he hes a jelos god wouldnt you be if you created every thing and your fallen angel satan converted ;people to wrong faiths
SKIZOTV 1 year ago
I think some the sad excuse for Calvinists here are a little upset at him disrupting their false ideology.....too bad so sad....Lets all cry a river and try to degrade his character because you like Mormons and J.W. twist the scripture to suit your needs.
Onfire4Christ777 1 year ago
he might be retarded..........lol
ash9206 1 year ago
Ahh! So God hates based upon what we do? Does God therefore love us because of what we do? How is that not works salvation. It was nice, at least, to hear him admit that God hates people. What a knucklehead!
fivepointbaptist 1 year ago
@fivepointbaptist Hey bro,just wanted to run something by you.Since Arminians claim the Calvinist God is not the God of scripture and after being shown numerous times that He is,doesn't this mean that those who deny Him are atheists,in the sense that they have chosen an idol over the God of scriptures?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Absolutely. Another way of putting it would be to call them fools. "The fool has said in his heart there is no God."
fivepointbaptist 1 year ago
@fivepointbaptist Amen,this certainly goes along with scripture.I know a lot of Calvinists believe that Arminianism is just a "SUB UNDERSTANDING",but I really believe that scripture teaches it is another gospel and god.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
As argumentation from a man appointed as seminary professor, that was just... sad. This is a man training the next generation of preachers and apologists? GET REAL, PEOPLE!!!
I hope, as the weeping E Michael Caner is driven away from LU in utter disgrace, someone plays this excerpt over the intercom. It's just *so* sad.
curvalecce 1 year ago
I don't even think he's a christian.
I'm a muslim. He's not an ex-muslims and christians in his positionsare not lying goons like him, they have a steadfast towards God.
oombuddah 1 year ago
Gee, do you think Caner actually knows the difference between Calvinism and hyper-Calvinism? I seriously doubt it.
phoenixmeow 1 year ago
expose liar Ergun's analysis of Romans 9. The response is simply to get Caner to read Romans 9:11 which states: "Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) "
wwwsultanorg 1 year ago 17
@wwwsultanorg Calvinism is sick
tgillspy 1 year ago
O christins Does God Love all ? Romans 9:13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
hahahah Great video Keep it up expose this liar
wwwsultanorg 1 year ago
HAHA HE IS UNDER ARREST!
PrinceBloody 1 year ago
@servent321 All translations of Romans 9 SAYS THE SAME THING! Even a bastardize version like the NWT. Get off the this stupid Muslim argument, it bears no validity to anyone with a brain.
Psylliumhead 1 year ago
@servent321 i know i know.... Middle eastern born white Jesus with blue eyes... off course he has to pronounce it that way......lol
zubairnetwork 1 year ago
@zubairnetwork Actually he's saying "Esau" - Jacob's twin brother. In the book of Romans the apostle Paul is addressing the 1st Century church in Rome and he's explaining some things to them. In chapter 9 he's specifically talking about the sovereignty of God and he refers them back to Old Testament scriptures to show them how God reveals Himself through His Providence. Charles Spurgeon explained the truth and implications of that passage far better than this man.
crackedpot40 1 year ago
@servent321 thanks but i know that i am a muslim. i was talking about the (ee-saw) the way he said it he called him self devout ex Muslim but can't pronounce ISA (pbuh) correctly this fat fake ex Muslim dude is out of his mind...
zubairnetwork 1 year ago
He's just ignorant that's all.
RobertHSengstacke 1 year ago
whos esaw ?
zubairnetwork 1 year ago
We believe in the doctrine of the trinity even though there is NO MENTION OF IT in the bible, but election...ya...its all over Romans. not some allusion to it...and we ignore it due to our failure to understand its true meaning. I am not saying the trinity is wrong, just the fact that calvinism is condemned...
rswanson136 1 year ago
I have seen this and other videos from people that teach at LU and seminary. I will not be doing my post graduate studies here, I will turn to Westminster or Biblical seminary. Thank you
rswanson136 1 year ago
Hmm, Caner seemed to have missed the text prior to verse 14
9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
Sounds like denial. :)
crem004 1 year ago
Ergun Caner only reads the verses in Romans 9 that he chooses to. The leader of a great Seminary should know better.
SkiesVibrant 1 year ago
I'm an atheist, an apostate Christian. When I was Christian, I would reject Calvinism because I believed in the culturally accepted attitude that "God loves everyone".
Now having the time to look at the Bible more closely and reading it over, Calvinism is definitely true. The Bible god definitely hates Esau the person, not the stuff Esau did, otherwise it would only say that.
The Bible is ripe with Calvinistic passages. I mean, come on, you're just in denial not to see it.
highwind8124 1 year ago
i hate being one of those people who does nothing but cite greek and hebrew (i think it makes you look like a bible snob), but the original language is something that has to be taken into account. the original text did not say God hated Esau just because he was Esau. it simply says God did not choose Esau. We have to look at the text in it's original context in order to better understand it today. it's original context does not support anything calvinistic.
benhccu2011 1 year ago
@benhccu2011 "the original text did not say God hated Esau"
Haha, so what text were you reading? The text given (both NT and OT: Hebrew and Greek) the word used is "hated." This is in Mal 1:2-3, and Rom 9:13
I think to say otherwise is denial. :)
crem004 1 year ago 2
@crem004 it is translated as the word "hated" in english. however, language evolves over time. the word gay did not mean anything but happy 50 years ago. that doesn't mean that "have a gay old time" from the flinstones theme song means homosexuality. in the same way that the word gay has changed and had a different past meaning, so did the word translated "hated" in the greek. it is not the best translation, and did not take the same meaning then that we ascribe to "hate" today.
benhccu2011 1 year ago
i also think the bible is ripe with calvinistic sounding passages. it is also ripe with passages saying we should sacrifice bulls and not cook goats in their mother's milk. the overall message of the bible, when every passage in the correct context comes together, is the fact that man rebelled against God, but has the free will to decide whether or not to accept His offer of reconciliation through Christ.
benhccu2011 1 year ago
@benhccu2011
Actually, faith is a gift in the Bible, not a thing you give yourself. (Ephesians 2:8)
Romans 9:21-22 talks about God preparing people for his wrath, and having the right to do it.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
I could go on and on. The Bible god leads some and misleads others.
highwind8124 1 year ago
It is a gift that is offered to all people, not just those God chooses to give it to. When it comes to the hardening of hearts and passages like 2nd Thessalonians 2:11, there has to be a proper understanding of what exactly it means to have a heart hardened. God does not just randomly make someone incapable of faith, He simply allows them to pursue the desires of their hearts. Having a hardened heart simply means God has allowed you to pursue their wicked desires. He lets them follow their heart
benhccu2011 1 year ago
And I would not agree with the idea that God leads some and misleads others.
1st Timothy 2:3-4
"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"
benhccu2011 1 year ago
@benhccu2011
This god clearly is a deceiver:
Jeremiah 20:7
O LORD, you deceived me, and I was deceived
That Timothy passage you pointed out is interesting. I don't think any interpretation is available for the Calvinistic passages, but this passage presents yet another contradiction in the Bible.
highwind8124 1 year ago
when it comes to the passage in Jeremiah, keep it mind that the comment about God being a deceiver is coming from a man who faced many persecutions in his day. When he was called be a prophet, he assumed that his message would be listened to. He is almost in the same position as Job: wondering why He (a prophet) is being persecuted and ignored. In that sense, he may have thought God deceived him by calling him as a prophet, knowing that the people would not listen to him. We can agree to
benhccu2011 1 year ago
@benhccu2011
Comparing Jeremiah to Job doesn't help your case, but enforces mine, because Job spoke correctly in his accusations (Job 42:7).
highwind8124 1 year ago
disagree, but I think when interpreted correctly, the Bible does not contradict itself. Starting points determine ending points, and when the starting point of someone's thought is Calvinism, then it does contradict itself. However, when the starting point is not a biased calvinistic approach, the Bible comes together without contradiction. The only reason I believe the Bible would contradict itself would be from incorrect interpretation, i.e. Calvinism. We can go back and forth. You obviously
benhccu2011 1 year ago
do have a knowledge of scripture, which I have high respect for. However, with the correct interpretation and study, I think your conclusions may be different. Either way, we will both have solid arguments for either side. When it comes down to it, I still go back to the 5 fundamentals as the most important things to understand regarding scripture. If someone believes these, I could care less if they are Calvinist or Arminian. I believe God will work that out. Good arguments though. It is
benhccu2011 1 year ago
refreshing to see someone like yourself (an apostate Christian) who has such a respect and understanding for scripture. Keep learning, and I hope your views about your faith (or lack there of) will open again to the idea of the God of the Bible. My final argument would be this: If Calvinism is the correct interpretation, then you would still be a Christian. The fifth "point" of Calvinism is once saved always saved, making it impossible for someone to be apostate. Just a thought. Take care.
benhccu2011 1 year ago
@benhccu2011
No, the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is utterly false. The problem with that is the unfounded assumption that you're saved. Declaring Christ Lord and believing it, and being in his service and making sacrifices in his name are not enough (Matt 7:21-23).
To be saved, one must do the will of the Father. To consistently not do it, as you and every Christian I have ever met has not, means you and I would burn if this religion were true.
highwind8124 1 year ago
@highwind8124
however, the five points of calvinism utterly collapse if all 5 are not true. calvinism is an air-tight system, and each "point" must be joined with the other 4 to make sense. So to say that Calvinism is true except for once saved always saved makes the whole system collapse on itself. as far as "they weren't really saved", that is an argument from silence that scripture in no way supports. there is no scriptural evidence for that. and in the "hall of faith" in the book of Hebrews
benhccu2011 1 year ago
@benhccu2011
, the Bible mentions people who are in Heaven with God who did not completely follow the will of God at all times. Thus, Jesus is not saying those who do not perfectly follow His will are not saved. He simply is saying that people must allow Him to be not only Savior, but Lord as well. This is where the grace we mentioned from Ephesians comes in.
benhccu2011 1 year ago
@benhccu2011
1John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.
crem004 1 year ago
@crem004 you failed to cite the verse in the same book, "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son". I think it's safe to say that Ergun Caner is not denying that Jesus is the Christ. Saying he is one of John's antichrists is completely taking scripture out of context. It is sad that a man who proclaims Jesus as Lord is being called an antichrist all because he does not subscribe the calvinistic theology.
benhccu2011 1 year ago
@benhccu2011 Haha, sorry I wasn't referring Ergun Caner as an anti-Chist. Sorry,I should have shown that I was referring to your statement about "one saved always saved" and your denial of "they weren't really saved."
crem004 1 year ago
@crem004 ha understood. sorry for the miscommunication. I can see where the theory comes from, but do not think there is clear-cut scriptural support for it. However, I do think there is support for losing salvation. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their
benhccu2011 1 year ago
@crem004 loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace".
While this verse is widely debated, the one thing it does verify is that someone can lose their faith. Someone who has met all the requirements above (tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, etc.) sounds like someone who was genuinely saved.
benhccu2011 1 year ago
@crem004 Hebrews 6 by the way. Sorry I didn't lmention that above.
benhccu2011 1 year ago
@benhccu2011
Phil 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. . . 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
crem004 1 year ago
@crem004 we will not be judged when we die based on how many points of TULIP we subscribe to. we will be judged by our confession of Jesus as our Lord and Savior. This is clearly one of those times when people view their theological school of thought take precedence over the Bible.
benhccu2011 1 year ago