My problem is that Paul said the resurrection would happen at the parousia (1 Cor. 15: 23), which you place in A.D. 70. He also referenced Isaiah 25: 8 and Hosea 13: 13-14. Apparently, Paul thought these passages would be fulfilled at the 2nd coming. Plus, Isaiah 66: 24 reveals physical resurrection in the NHNE (cf. Mark 9: 45-48) -- after the Lord comes to judge all nations (Is. 66: 15-26). Are you saying that the O.T. DOESN'T teach Christ's second advent???
My problem is that Paul said the resurrection would happen at the parousia (1 Cor. 15: 23), which you place in A.D. 70. He also referenced Isaiah 25: 8 and Hosea 13: 13-14. Apparently, Paul thought these passages would be fulfilled at the 2nd coming. Plus, Isaiah 66: 24 reveals physical resurrection in the NHNE (cf. Mark 9: 45-48) -- after the Lord comes to judge all nations (Is. 66: 15-26). Are you saying that the O.T. DOESN'T teach Christ's second advent???
Vince, I just checked out your video, and am baffled with your position. Are you saying the resurrection happened in A.D. 70?? In Daniel 12: 1-2, a physical resurrection happens in connection with the Great Trib (see Hosea 13: 13-14). Also, 1 Cor. 15: 52, where the last trump is manifestly the same trumpet at which the kingdoms of the world fall and the DEAD ARE JUDGED (Rev. 11: 15-18). In light of your past-fulfillment scheme, how can you avoid Hymenean conclusions??
@MillennialSaint The Resurrection at the Last Day did not happen in AD 70. I do not believe Daniel 12:1-2 directly teaches of the bodily resurrection, but our Lord teaches that is the logical consequence of what Daniel predicted. Yet I do not hold that 1 Corinthians 15:52 is past, but will be realized in time and history in the future.
@MillennialSaint In my opinion most OT prophecy has been fulfilled by the first century and the end of the age. Yet a huge case can be made that many OT prophecies and types exemplify all the New Testament teachings of the end of history and our Lord’s Second Coming and our Blessed Hope. These things are also extrapolated from the whole OT revelation. There is no doubt that the OT teaches of the Last Judgment and of our Lord’s rule over all nations.
p.s. Don't let Chuck Coty whine his way into making you stop calling HYPER-preterism what it is. HYPER simply means to "go beyond" the original intent and scope. HYPER-preterism certainly goes beyond the original intent and scope of historic Preterism. Calling it HYPER-preterism is etymologically correct even if it is not politically correct or offends Chuck Coty's sensibilities.
@Bibletouchstone I am now committing much more effort to an Augustinian view of the Fall, and a Scripturalist epistemology and theology of accountability than exegesis of “eschatological” passages. As the Lord wills, I will get to that too just after some preparatory groundwork is finished. Where this will differ from conventional “Partial-Preterism” is probably on the common interpretation of some Old Testament texts.
@thekingdomcomedotcom My wife has been supportive of my move; she never was a full-preterist. Never pursuaded, perhaps because she is not interested in the systemization of the eschatological frontier. Yet she believes my move was by God’s Grace. I am blessed by this, but I know for some the move is more difficult for some.
@Bibletouchstone - Thanks for all the replies Vince. So, what you're saying is that you are promoting Ken Talbot's Clarkian (i.e. "Scripturalist/Philosophical") "new" version of Partial-Preterism? Do you have his support in this or are you subsuming his role? I'm not certain why Talbot wants to make a "new" eschatology since that simply concedes the hyperpret point, as if Christianity has failed for 200 yrs to present a cogent, united eschatology. Why not just remain a hyperpret then?
@Bibletouchstone I have great deference for his work, but the wave of response to HP in dogmatic Christianity is not led by Dr. T, but by the Grace of God. Dr. T has been supportive and influential but as an independent lay Christian, I have my own agenda. I believe that the most compelling arguments of HP can be answered by orthodox fundamentals. I believe God will deliver many HPs.
@Bibletouchstone - Vince, though I admire your attempt to move away from hyperpreterism, I am concerned about your association with Talbot. This is a man who will not come out of hiding and put forth his own work against HP. He lets people like you and Sharon Nichols twist in the wind while he sits safely in his ivory tower. Please take some time to reconsider your associations. Especially since you said Pret-Real and Real-Pret are the same. Thanks
@thekingdomcomedotcom I thought I was clear that this is a distinct study, and that I am not Dr. T's henchman. Please do not slander and gossip here again. Please keep your personal vendettas on your blog and don't drag me or Sharon into this imaginary war, a stumbling-block for weaker brothers and the world.
Perhaps you might care to prove this. Let's take Revelation 1:3, for instance. The book of Revelation was written to a people who were facing incredible persecution. The writer of the book himself (John) finds himself banished to the island of Patmos. 1:3 gives the readers of the book a promise - they will be blessed for having read it. Question: how are they to be blessed after finding out it is about something that will happen long after they've been tortured and killed?
@rofyle They are blessed in everyway! because no matter when those things are realized, the knowledge of such things are profitable unto all good works, necessary for us to believe unto the completion thereof.
Ever hear of Voice of the Martyrs? They're an interdenominational organization that travels the world sneaking Bibles, clothes, food, water, and various other necessities into nations where Christian persecution is the strongest. Right this moment you can visit their site and write a brief letter of encouragement to one of our suffering brothers and sisters. What will you write?
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My problem is that Paul said the resurrection would happen at the parousia (1 Cor. 15: 23), which you place in A.D. 70. He also referenced Isaiah 25: 8 and Hosea 13: 13-14. Apparently, Paul thought these passages would be fulfilled at the 2nd coming. Plus, Isaiah 66: 24 reveals physical resurrection in the NHNE (cf. Mark 9: 45-48) -- after the Lord comes to judge all nations (Is. 66: 15-26). Are you saying that the O.T. DOESN'T teach Christ's second advent???
MillennialSaint 1 year ago
My problem is that Paul said the resurrection would happen at the parousia (1 Cor. 15: 23), which you place in A.D. 70. He also referenced Isaiah 25: 8 and Hosea 13: 13-14. Apparently, Paul thought these passages would be fulfilled at the 2nd coming. Plus, Isaiah 66: 24 reveals physical resurrection in the NHNE (cf. Mark 9: 45-48) -- after the Lord comes to judge all nations (Is. 66: 15-26). Are you saying that the O.T. DOESN'T teach Christ's second advent???
MillennialSaint 1 year ago
Vince, I just checked out your video, and am baffled with your position. Are you saying the resurrection happened in A.D. 70?? In Daniel 12: 1-2, a physical resurrection happens in connection with the Great Trib (see Hosea 13: 13-14). Also, 1 Cor. 15: 52, where the last trump is manifestly the same trumpet at which the kingdoms of the world fall and the DEAD ARE JUDGED (Rev. 11: 15-18). In light of your past-fulfillment scheme, how can you avoid Hymenean conclusions??
Brian
MillennialSaint 1 year ago
@MillennialSaint The Resurrection at the Last Day did not happen in AD 70. I do not believe Daniel 12:1-2 directly teaches of the bodily resurrection, but our Lord teaches that is the logical consequence of what Daniel predicted. Yet I do not hold that 1 Corinthians 15:52 is past, but will be realized in time and history in the future.
Bibletouchstone 1 year ago
@Bibletouchstone Thanks, Vince. So, in your opinion, would you say that all Old Testament prophecy had to be fulfilled by A.D. 70??
Brian
MillennialSaint 1 year ago
@MillennialSaint In my opinion most OT prophecy has been fulfilled by the first century and the end of the age. Yet a huge case can be made that many OT prophecies and types exemplify all the New Testament teachings of the end of history and our Lord’s Second Coming and our Blessed Hope. These things are also extrapolated from the whole OT revelation. There is no doubt that the OT teaches of the Last Judgment and of our Lord’s rule over all nations.
Bibletouchstone 1 year ago
p.s. Don't let Chuck Coty whine his way into making you stop calling HYPER-preterism what it is. HYPER simply means to "go beyond" the original intent and scope. HYPER-preterism certainly goes beyond the original intent and scope of historic Preterism. Calling it HYPER-preterism is etymologically correct even if it is not politically correct or offends Chuck Coty's sensibilities.
thekingdomcomedotcom 1 year ago
@Bibletouchstone I am now committing much more effort to an Augustinian view of the Fall, and a Scripturalist epistemology and theology of accountability than exegesis of “eschatological” passages. As the Lord wills, I will get to that too just after some preparatory groundwork is finished. Where this will differ from conventional “Partial-Preterism” is probably on the common interpretation of some Old Testament texts.
Bibletouchstone 1 year ago
Hello Vince. Thanks for the video. A couple of questions;
1. How will Preterist-Realism be different from "Realized Preterism", or even different than "Partial-Preterism" for that matter?
2. How is your wife handling your move away from hyperpreterism? Especially since you used to be so adamant.
Thanks
thekingdomcomedotcom 1 year ago
@thekingdomcomedotcom My wife has been supportive of my move; she never was a full-preterist. Never pursuaded, perhaps because she is not interested in the systemization of the eschatological frontier. Yet she believes my move was by God’s Grace. I am blessed by this, but I know for some the move is more difficult for some.
Bibletouchstone 1 year ago
@Bibletouchstone - Thanks for all the replies Vince. So, what you're saying is that you are promoting Ken Talbot's Clarkian (i.e. "Scripturalist/Philosophical") "new" version of Partial-Preterism? Do you have his support in this or are you subsuming his role? I'm not certain why Talbot wants to make a "new" eschatology since that simply concedes the hyperpret point, as if Christianity has failed for 200 yrs to present a cogent, united eschatology. Why not just remain a hyperpret then?
thekingdomcomedotcom 1 year ago
@thekingdomcomedotcom I do not think Dr. T or I are making a "new" eschatology. I am taking on a new study of age old Christian dogmata.
Bibletouchstone 1 year ago
@Bibletouchstone I have great deference for his work, but the wave of response to HP in dogmatic Christianity is not led by Dr. T, but by the Grace of God. Dr. T has been supportive and influential but as an independent lay Christian, I have my own agenda. I believe that the most compelling arguments of HP can be answered by orthodox fundamentals. I believe God will deliver many HPs.
Bibletouchstone 1 year ago
@Bibletouchstone - Vince, though I admire your attempt to move away from hyperpreterism, I am concerned about your association with Talbot. This is a man who will not come out of hiding and put forth his own work against HP. He lets people like you and Sharon Nichols twist in the wind while he sits safely in his ivory tower. Please take some time to reconsider your associations. Especially since you said Pret-Real and Real-Pret are the same. Thanks
thekingdomcomedotcom 1 year ago
@thekingdomcomedotcom I thought I was clear that this is a distinct study, and that I am not Dr. T's henchman. Please do not slander and gossip here again. Please keep your personal vendettas on your blog and don't drag me or Sharon into this imaginary war, a stumbling-block for weaker brothers and the world.
Bibletouchstone 1 year ago
All forms of preterism are unbiblical. Full/Hyper preterism violates Revelation 22, verses 18 and 19.
Testallthings 1 year ago
@Testallthings
And yet Futurism violates Revelation 1:3, Acts 2:16, as well as the majority portion of both the New and the Old Testaments.
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle No it doesn't. You just do not understand the Word of God.
Testallthings 1 year ago
@Testallthings
Perhaps you might care to prove this. Let's take Revelation 1:3, for instance. The book of Revelation was written to a people who were facing incredible persecution. The writer of the book himself (John) finds himself banished to the island of Patmos. 1:3 gives the readers of the book a promise - they will be blessed for having read it. Question: how are they to be blessed after finding out it is about something that will happen long after they've been tortured and killed?
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle They are blessed in everyway! because no matter when those things are realized, the knowledge of such things are profitable unto all good works, necessary for us to believe unto the completion thereof.
Bibletouchstone 1 year ago
@Bibletouchstone
Ever hear of Voice of the Martyrs? They're an interdenominational organization that travels the world sneaking Bibles, clothes, food, water, and various other necessities into nations where Christian persecution is the strongest. Right this moment you can visit their site and write a brief letter of encouragement to one of our suffering brothers and sisters. What will you write?
rofyle 1 year ago