Yeah, save all the weak manual transmission arguments. I had to hear them from way too many old men in Hawaiian shirts. There's nothing to shifting gears. Calling it "fun" or "connected" is just disingenuous. There's no skill involved unless you are just completely uncoordinated. If you need to ad an arbitrary activity to driving, try knitting, otherwise pushing or pulling a lever for gear selection is on the same level as crank starting a car. It's dead and people should get used to it.
@raceboy1971 Ooooo yeah?!!! Is that's what your extensive experience told you? How about heel-tow downshift to match the revs while trail-braking into the corner? Is that a no-brainer as well?
@LeontariF1 Like I said earlier, when I transitioned from karts, which either had just a centrifugal clutch or shifter karts, where the clutch is only used to start and stop, to formula cars (Barber Dodge cars back in the day) the first thing I had to learn was heel/toe. It took me half a day. After that I have never thought about it again, where I think about everything else constantly. Seriously, it's blipping the throttle with the side of your foot, are you really tell me that's hard?
@raceboy1971 You can learn how to do it in half a day but doing it competitively takes a long longer. When I took the Formula 200 class I was able learn how to do it in half a day as well but I wasn't anywhere close to the pace of the professional instructors but when I took the AMG Challenge class I was racing behind the instructor flat out at the same pace. Driving road cars with ABS, traction control, stability control and auto gearbox were a lot easier in comparison.
@alexthesportsfanatic seriously! you might want to look at the Mustangs time 1:41:06 and the over rated over priced Cayman R 1:41:64 with just the one driver you know the cars were driven the same so theirs is no arguing
@marshknute While I agree with you about the manual vs paddle shifters. The facts state that Paddles are faster than manuals hands down, and in the high end racing world of F1 thats all tha matters.
@Macwylee The Cayman isn't a Formula 1 car. Neither is the Boss, 458, GT-R, Vette or any of the other cars MT tested for this competition. Why do you need to shave 0.4 seconds off of each shift when you are driving to the grocery store?
@arena2101 I haven't driven the 458, but I have driven a friend's GT-R which was extremely boring. I also signed up for a program called World Class Driving two years ago. It's a fantastic program--check out their website. Anyway, I drove a Gallardo Superleggera, SLR McLaren, 599, R8 V10 and Continental Supersports through the scenic roads of Vermont. The flappy paddle transmissions were jerky and uncomfortable. The most fun car I have ever driven is my 5-speed manual Mazda Miata.
@arena2101 Any idiot can flick a paddle to change gear. It doesn't require any driving skill. A manual transmission, on the other hand, does require skill. It takes practice to gain muscle memory for heel-toeing. I simply find it more rewarding rowing through the gears in my Miata than pulling paddles in a Ferrari. The term "driver's car" was invented to describe cars which are engaging to drive and confidence inspiring in the bends. No paddle-shift transmission is as engaging as a manual.
@ohyeahbustedyeah Yes, a Miata is better than a GT-R. It is a far inferior performance car, but it is a far superior driver's car. A driver's car is engaging to drive and confidence inspiring at the limit. My friend's GT-R is ridiculously fast, but is one of the least exciting driving experiences I have ever had. It's no different than driving a GT-R in Gran Turismo: just press some buttons and it does everything else.
@marshknute Drive the new 2012 GTR on the ring and tell me it's not exciting.. even in Gran turismo it's exciting.. of course you need a steering wheel and playseat first.
@MagicAyrtonforever While I haven't driven a GTR, I have signed up for the program World Class Driving, where I drove a Gallardo, 599, SLR, R8 V10 and Continental SS. They all had paddle-shift transmissions, and they sucked all the fun out of the drive. The most fun car I've driven to date is my clubspec Miata. For me, a manual transmission will always be more fun and rewarding than a flappy-paddle gearbox, no matter how smooth or fast it is.
@ohyeahbustedyeah The Miata is the best selling sports car in history for a reason: it's fun. It has comically small proportions, a ridiculously low curb weight, a short throw manual transmission, endless brake feel and a fantastic chassis. It is rewarding to drive and confidence inspiring at the limit, which explains why it has the largest clubsport network in the world. The Miata beat the ZR-1, 135i, 370Z Nismo and Shelby GT500 in MotorTrend's 2009 Driver's Car Competition.
@marshknute so no fuel injection for you then, no brake servo, no seat belts, no limited slip diffs?. just a hand fuel pump, cable brakes, a sturdy steering wheel & a live rear axle. A Model T for you then yeah :-)
@greebo954 You know what I mean. Electric steering, electric fuel pumps, LSD's, etc eliminate the hassle associated with driving an older car. There comes a point, however, when technological advances begin to mute the driving experience, rather than improve it. Manual transmissions are the best example: while they are inferior to DSG's, they are more fun and rewarding. If you aren't an F1 or WRC driver, you don't need to shave 0.4 seconds off of each gear change.
@kzam90 It has nothing to do with being behind the times. Think of it this way: the car is a superior mode of transportation to a horse, and should have replaced the horse altogether. In reality, equestrians still ride horses b/c it offers a level of fun that no car can mimic. Driver's car's are the new horses; their performance is inferior, but they offer an enjoyable experience which can never be mimicked by a DSG gearbox.
@MagicAyrtonforever Ayrton Senna drove a manual transmission F1 car. That said, I never criticized the use of paddle-shift transmissions in race cars. After all, 0.3 seconds does make a difference in a race. An F1 car is not a Driver's Car. It was designed solely for speed, not for driving fun. Any F1 driver will tell you that their car is extremely difficult to drive and very unforgiving.
@marshknute That your idea mate, and I respect that. But if you think you know better, then why don't you build your own car or buy one of those cars and modify it to your liking, I mean no one is stopping you.... Your claiming that the car companies do not know how to build certain cars..... They have been in the business for DECADES....
Your complaints is analogous to this:
A 2 year old trying to tell a Physicist why the LAWS OF PHYSICS are completely and utterly WRONG.
@shinkueagle What are you talking about? I never said that manual transmissions are faster or more efficient than paddle-shift gearboxes. I said they are more FUN. Fun is not measured objectively. Fun is measured by the smile on your face, and people who know how to drive a manual properly will tell you that it is more FUN than any flappy paddle. I fully support flappy paddles in racing b/c every millisecond counts. Having fun is what counts on a morning commute.
@shinkueagle What are you talking about? I never said that manual transmissions are faster or more efficient than paddle-shift gearboxes. I said they are more FUN. Fun is not measured objectively. Fun is measured by the smile on your face, and people who know how to drive a manual properly will tell you that it is more FUN than any flappy paddle. I fully support flappy paddles in racing b/c every millisecond counts. Having fun is what counts on a morning commute.
@shinkueagle What are you talking about? I never said that manual transmissions are faster or more efficient than paddle-shift gearboxes. I said they are more FUN. Fun is not measured objectively. Fun is measured by the smile on your face, and people who know how to drive a manual properly will tell you that it is more FUN than any flappy paddle. I fully support flappy paddles in racing b/c every millisecond counts. Having fun is what counts on a morning commute.
@shinkueagle What are you talking about? I never said that manual transmissions are faster or more efficient than paddle-shift gearboxes. I said they are more FUN. Fun is not measured objectively. Fun is measured by the smile on your face, and people who know how to drive a manual properly will tell you that it is more FUN than any flappy paddle. I fully support flappy paddles in racing b/c every millisecond counts. Having fun is what counts on a morning commute.
@marshknute I guess you want your car without power steering, without ABS, hell modern stick shifts are spoiled by the fact that they have synchros and you don't have to double clutch to shift.
@felixhhu Now you're just being ridiculous. There's a difference between technology which relieves hassle and technology which takes away fun. The vast majority of car enthusiasts prefer manual transmissions b/c they are more fun than flappy paddle gearboxes.
@marshknute Have you driven a car with an automated manual around the car? Having driven around town in a Camry is quite different from a well set up automated manual.
:ook back 15 years and you will see much of the same line of argument was used with ABS. The Mclaren F1 didn't have ABS and frankly I think it has suffered for it in retrospect. Have you driven a car without power steering? The "connection" to the road is better than any hydraulic or electric power steering rack.
@felixhhu I signed up for the program, World Class Driving, two years ago. I drove a Gallardo Superleggera, 599, SLR McLaren, R8 V10 and Continental Supersports. All of them had flappy-paddle gearboxes, and all of them were jerky and unrewarding. I had more fun driving home in my track-modified 5-speed manual Mazda Miata. It was no more rewarding to flick a paddle in a Ferrari than press the "circle" button in GranTurismo 5. Manual's will forever be more fun than any flappy paddle gearbox.
@marshknute wait, the 458 could be called a driver's car, it is a joy and loves to slide.. though i personally hate paddle shifters, and the transmission is actually fun, don't get me wrong, it is n where close to the joy of a manual transmission.. the GTR has technologically assisted everything, and though it is impressively fast, i agree, it is no where near a driver's car.. i also love the Cayman, and it had one of the best transmissions, but again, not as fun as a manual, still driver's cars
@marshknute This is such an ignorant comment based purely on emotion and anyone who says "flappy paddle" sounds like a kook who watched an episode of Top Gear and now thinks they are Clarkson.
I've been racing for 25 years starting at 15 at the Jim Hall Kart Racing School where I became an instructor and then moved on to being an instructor at Skip Barber at Laguna. I spent half a day learning how to heel toe and never thought about it again. Manually shifting gears is dead and good riddance.
@raceboy1971 You are the ignorant one. MT specifically stated that a driver's car is an emotional car, not the fastest car. Why else do you think the 167 hp Miata finished ahead of the 640 hp Corvette ZR1 in MT's 2009 Driver's Car Competition? I am a 4-time Skip Barber graduate, myself, (Limerock Raceway in CT) and compete in clubspec events with my local Miata club. Manuals are more fun. I'm not alone in thinking that, since my comment is the highest rated comment for over 3 months.
@raceboy1971 As you are an instructor, I can appreciate why you like paddle-shift gearboxes: they are faster, more precise and allow you to concentrate on squeezing another few tenths of a second out of each lap. A driver's car, however, is about having fun. It's about being one with the machine and enjoying the sensation of rowing through the gears.
@raceboy1971 My Miata club often shares a track with the local Porsche club. Over 90% of the cars have manual transmissions, even the new Caymans and 911's. Unlike you, we don't care to shave time off of our laps. We just want to have fun, and a paddle-shift gearbox robs us of the fun. A car isn't a driver's car if the car does all the work for the driver. I fully support paddle-shift gearboxes for racing, since every tenth counts. For having fun, however, it's manual or nothing.
FUCK IM GETTING cayman r but pdk sounds so tempting with its 7 gears faster shifting launch control and better gas mileage, but a clutch is so fucking fun
@ alexthesportsfanatic Porsche did it in 1.41.64 mustang is faster that day same conditions by .58 of a second and it has a back seat just so you don't hurt your brain doing math
@ Alexthesportsfanatic actually the boss 302 mustang did it in 1.41.06 which is faster than the cayman r , I like Porsche but you should check your facts before you look like a fool
Does that even matter? It's a fucking Porsche. Automobiles are all about engineering and if you ask ANY engineer, a Porsche takes the cake every time. I would also want a 5 speed manual though. A manual cars feels so much more alive and powerful plus the excitement from driving with a clutch is worth the milliseconds lost in drag times.
@t7e4x8a4s When Randy Pobst drove both cars around Laguna Seca, he lapped the Boss 302 in 1:43.0 and the Cayman R in 1:41.64. Same driver goes faster in the Cayman R.
@t7e4x8a4s a reason for that was the car being especially engineered for this track, and it having the advantage in the longer straight parts of the track, with 110 more horsepower.. :)
I drove one of these yesterday.. you hit a bump mid corner and it will understeer alright! front feels a little light like an old 911.. which I suppose isn't a bad thing and would probably take some getting used to.
Autocar just named the Porsche Cayman R the "Best Driver's" car and rightly so IMO. Motor trend somehow ranked it 3 or 4th which is flat BS. MT chose the GT-R which auto-corrects just about everything and is widely known not to be one of the best driver's car. I bet they got a fat check from Nissan.
Why is everyone shooting down the mustang. Get it through your heads people! A mustang (A MUSTANG!!) runs toe to toe with a porsche and does alright. Now thats a win for the mustang by my terms, even if the Porsche costed more!
I got to drive a blue one hard a few months back. It's good, great even. Tires on the numb side, kind of racecarish feel without being too totally serious on the handling side. But I actually prefer the Cayman S for added playfulness. The R understeers a wee bit too much for my liking. And it's too expensive compared to the other Caymans.
with 2 more seats and a large trunk actually its pretty impressive how a mustang even beat a porsche at all. A far more expensive porsche at that. Imagine a far more expensive rear engine 2 seat ford. Oh wait thats a ford GT, and a new updated GT would rape everything here, or at least match it.
The car companies decide what tires to outfit the car with, similarly to how they decide what springs/shocks and brakes go on the car. By changing the tires, you (however slightly) modify the car from stock.
This is undeniably the best car Porsche makes. I can't wait to see the 2013 redesign. The spy shots show a 911-inspired design and it should see modest hp gains with improved fuel economy and the new 7-speed manual. Hopefully, Porsche will make a special edition (Cayman GT2 RS?) so we can see this car's true potential.
A good car that is only held from greatness by its big brother, the 911. This chassis could handle more power yet. I bought a Boss 302 because of the practicality, but I do love this little car.
@proudstr8 how can you say something is overrated or underrated when you obviously never even drove it...porsches are very accurately-rated nazi cars that regularly shit on red neck cars.......there is nothing else to say.
@justforwatchingcraps they look so ugly though, hitler wanted the porsches to look that way, and porsche se is still following that nazi tradition. long ago hitler came up with the classical porsches and vw beetles design and had porsche adapt the concepts into real cars, and they still havent changed the look yet. no wonder they are so ugly.
its fast sure, handles great, yep, but its damn ugly. sorry id rather have a bmw or a mercedes if we're talking german cars
@proudstr8 ummm..well i'm not sure how true that is, but either way hitler is not a reason to dislike porsche, thats dumb. yea they aren't the best looking cars, 911s look great in my opinion, but all of them have that distinct porsche style. regardless of their looks, they are incredible cars that are just undeniable if you love driving. they easily drive circles around both bmw and merc and do it without flash or gimmicks. porsche is more about getting shit right than flash/appearances.
@justforwatchingcraps i dont think bmw is that flashy. except for the angel eyes, the chassis of bmws are usually normal looking, which is my kind of car. mercedes are usually stylish and sporty, but always look great
porsches are the ones with the flashy gimmick shit. why else would it pretentiously separate itself with that ugly unique look? it just has prestige that makes everyone think its soooo great. waste of money
@proudstr8 where do u think that prestige comes from? being unique isn't being flashy, its an old look that doesn't grab attention anymore, its the opposite of flashy. the car itself is utterly amazing in every way....the only people who would agree with you are in youtube comments sections. anyone who actually drove this car or a 911 gt3 loved it, it got universal acclaim...don't you think after a certain point ur just bullshitting yourself because you just don't want to like porsche?
@justforwatchingcraps it definitely grabs attention on the street, it goes "look at my weird looking design im so pretentious and neat looking, im such a status symbol go waste money on me".
im not surprised that so many people jump on the porsche bandwagon and dream about getting one. people also think overpriced italian clothes made in chinese sweatshops are status symbols too. if more people knew that porsche was hitlers ideal nazi car then maybe theyd stop thinking that they're so great
@proudstr8 What about being the best handling car one can buy?? I like the Z06 Corvette better... much quicker lap time, but like the driver said about the Cayman R, "What apex?".
That would be really cool if they synced a camera to the car's gauges and played it along with the rest of the video, in the corner of the screen of something
@Cerberusphere i'm with you on that. can't deny how great the bosses are, the other day i saw one and got really excited but i'd still take the cayman r any day :)
@petrolhead229 The Shelby Gt500 is obviously faster on the straight line when compared to the little brother the BoSS but clocks a 1.44:xx laptime. The cayman r has a good power to weight ratio. It's 318kg (700 lbs) lighter. The Cayman superior dive-train layout is one of many of its advantages . Everyone expects a GTR or a Porshe to be fast on the track, but not an LRA Mustang.
the boss 302 is a great car despite weighing over 800 pounds more it edges out the cayman, lets not forget tho that the boss 302 has 110 more horsepower.
If you want a super fast car the has good value but isn't all that fun to drive buy a GTR. If you want a pure drivers car that is VERY fun to drive and relatively inexpensive for what you are getting buy an Exige!!!
The cayman R is described by many motoring journalists and racing drivers as the sweetest handling road car ever made. that's what you're paying the extra for.
@MoreGrievances They boss wins by a "hair"? It cost 20k less then this car thats a pretty big win!! The Boss is faster then cars, that cost way more then it does, it's a giant killer!! !!nuff said!!
I dont pay much attention to MTs times and numbers. The videos are nice to watch tho. Also i dont believe in "hot lapse" when trying to see whats "best". Either best out of 3 after tire warmup or 3 averaged is a much better way imo.
@FlatoutDodge A big time Dodge fan that can give credit where credit is due, even overseas. You're alright, my friend, as I am in the same situation as you.
@matdewey utterly irrelevant, this is a handling test and largely subjective...the merc sls has a better time than both and its a sloppy GT car, all due to its sledge hammer torque.
Respond to this video... lets face it ford can make a car that will probably put this completely to shame and still cost around the same, however it is not how fast a car will get you around a lap it is how it made you feel getting around that lap
Intersting facts here: I found my 2009 MT magazine with the best driver cars and the Cayman S PDK lapped in 1:43.0. Better than the Mustang Shelby GT500 that did the same in 1:44.3.
Now the Cayman R improves that time by almost a second and a half and the Boss Laguna Seca seems so good that beats them all by about 0.5 sec! Nice cars :))
@apt9806 Well my knowledge of BMW isn't superb, I just know the surface. My bad, I hadn't realized the official name was the "1 Series M coupe" or whatever, I assumed it was M1 like the rest of them. I'm more a fan of other makes anyway. "BMW 1M is better" still sounds like a major fanboy comment though, you have to agree to that.
@n9athan Haha it makes life fun it's all good. See I'm a mad Dodge fanboy, and haters gonna hate of course, but my dad passed his love of dodge since the 60s down to me so I love it too. I don't post fanboy comments like "Dodge _______ is better" though, cuz even I know I'd sound stupid. Just bringing up something having absolutely nothing to do with the video.
Yeah, save all the weak manual transmission arguments. I had to hear them from way too many old men in Hawaiian shirts. There's nothing to shifting gears. Calling it "fun" or "connected" is just disingenuous. There's no skill involved unless you are just completely uncoordinated. If you need to ad an arbitrary activity to driving, try knitting, otherwise pushing or pulling a lever for gear selection is on the same level as crank starting a car. It's dead and people should get used to it.
raceboy1971 5 days ago
@raceboy1971 Ooooo yeah?!!! Is that's what your extensive experience told you? How about heel-tow downshift to match the revs while trail-braking into the corner? Is that a no-brainer as well?
LeontariF1 5 days ago
@LeontariF1 Like I said earlier, when I transitioned from karts, which either had just a centrifugal clutch or shifter karts, where the clutch is only used to start and stop, to formula cars (Barber Dodge cars back in the day) the first thing I had to learn was heel/toe. It took me half a day. After that I have never thought about it again, where I think about everything else constantly. Seriously, it's blipping the throttle with the side of your foot, are you really tell me that's hard?
raceboy1971 5 days ago
@raceboy1971 You can learn how to do it in half a day but doing it competitively takes a long longer. When I took the Formula 200 class I was able learn how to do it in half a day as well but I wasn't anywhere close to the pace of the professional instructors but when I took the AMG Challenge class I was racing behind the instructor flat out at the same pace. Driving road cars with ABS, traction control, stability control and auto gearbox were a lot easier in comparison.
LeontariF1 4 days ago
though i love the classic RR setup of the 911, this would also be an amazing car with one of the 911 engines.. OMG i wish they did that
supra1722 6 days ago
the porsche was faster than the lotus evora S and the BMW 1m.. GO PORSCHE :)
hahaha13822 1 week ago
It kinda looks like Kermit the frog.
SPMNDK89 1 month ago
Manual - Pleasure
True sequential with straight cut gears - Performance
Automatic/CVT - Convenience
Dual clutch - Somewhere in the middle of the three
jeremy0818 1 month ago
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@alexthesportsfanatic seriously! you might want to look at the Mustangs time 1:41:06 and the over rated over priced Cayman R 1:41:64 with just the one driver you know the cars were driven the same so theirs is no arguing
O7ROADKING 2 months ago
Comment removed
O7ROADKING 2 months ago
Why MotorTrend? Why do you test cars with flappy paddles. A Driver's Car has a manual transmission, no exceptions.
The car in this video is a disgrace: Porsche ruined the best car they ever built by fitting it with a God damned PDK transmission.
How dare they call the 458 and GTR driver's cars? What's the purpose of the driver if the car does all the work for him? Row your own damn gears.
marshknute 3 months ago 14
@marshknute While I agree with you about the manual vs paddle shifters. The facts state that Paddles are faster than manuals hands down, and in the high end racing world of F1 thats all tha matters.
Macwylee 3 months ago
@Macwylee The Cayman isn't a Formula 1 car. Neither is the Boss, 458, GT-R, Vette or any of the other cars MT tested for this competition. Why do you need to shave 0.4 seconds off of each shift when you are driving to the grocery store?
marshknute 3 months ago
@marshknute Why do you need 400+ HP to drive to the grocery store?
Macwylee 3 months ago
@marshknute You've never driven any of these cars, have you...
arena2101 1 month ago
@arena2101 I haven't driven the 458, but I have driven a friend's GT-R which was extremely boring. I also signed up for a program called World Class Driving two years ago. It's a fantastic program--check out their website. Anyway, I drove a Gallardo Superleggera, SLR McLaren, 599, R8 V10 and Continental Supersports through the scenic roads of Vermont. The flappy paddle transmissions were jerky and uncomfortable. The most fun car I have ever driven is my 5-speed manual Mazda Miata.
marshknute 1 month ago
@arena2101 Any idiot can flick a paddle to change gear. It doesn't require any driving skill. A manual transmission, on the other hand, does require skill. It takes practice to gain muscle memory for heel-toeing. I simply find it more rewarding rowing through the gears in my Miata than pulling paddles in a Ferrari. The term "driver's car" was invented to describe cars which are engaging to drive and confidence inspiring in the bends. No paddle-shift transmission is as engaging as a manual.
marshknute 1 month ago
@marshknute You're right, if they were talking about the fastest cars I would agree with Paddles, but in a driver's car it should be stick shift!!!
NFSPS99999 1 month ago
@marshknute
Sorry, but you think a Barbie doll car like a slow ass Miata is better than a GTR?
ohyeahbustedyeah 1 month ago
@ohyeahbustedyeah Yes, a Miata is better than a GT-R. It is a far inferior performance car, but it is a far superior driver's car. A driver's car is engaging to drive and confidence inspiring at the limit. My friend's GT-R is ridiculously fast, but is one of the least exciting driving experiences I have ever had. It's no different than driving a GT-R in Gran Turismo: just press some buttons and it does everything else.
marshknute 1 month ago
@marshknute Drive the new 2012 GTR on the ring and tell me it's not exciting.. even in Gran turismo it's exciting.. of course you need a steering wheel and playseat first.
MagicAyrtonforever 3 weeks ago
@MagicAyrtonforever While I haven't driven a GTR, I have signed up for the program World Class Driving, where I drove a Gallardo, 599, SLR, R8 V10 and Continental SS. They all had paddle-shift transmissions, and they sucked all the fun out of the drive. The most fun car I've driven to date is my clubspec Miata. For me, a manual transmission will always be more fun and rewarding than a flappy-paddle gearbox, no matter how smooth or fast it is.
marshknute 3 weeks ago
@ohyeahbustedyeah The Miata is the best selling sports car in history for a reason: it's fun. It has comically small proportions, a ridiculously low curb weight, a short throw manual transmission, endless brake feel and a fantastic chassis. It is rewarding to drive and confidence inspiring at the limit, which explains why it has the largest clubsport network in the world. The Miata beat the ZR-1, 135i, 370Z Nismo and Shelby GT500 in MotorTrend's 2009 Driver's Car Competition.
marshknute 1 month ago
@marshknute so no fuel injection for you then, no brake servo, no seat belts, no limited slip diffs?. just a hand fuel pump, cable brakes, a sturdy steering wheel & a live rear axle. A Model T for you then yeah :-)
greebo954 1 month ago
@greebo954 You know what I mean. Electric steering, electric fuel pumps, LSD's, etc eliminate the hassle associated with driving an older car. There comes a point, however, when technological advances begin to mute the driving experience, rather than improve it. Manual transmissions are the best example: while they are inferior to DSG's, they are more fun and rewarding. If you aren't an F1 or WRC driver, you don't need to shave 0.4 seconds off of each gear change.
marshknute 1 month ago
@marshknute you have to get with the times...it is like saying a true mathematician only uses an abacus and not a calculator.
kzam90 1 month ago
@kzam90 It has nothing to do with being behind the times. Think of it this way: the car is a superior mode of transportation to a horse, and should have replaced the horse altogether. In reality, equestrians still ride horses b/c it offers a level of fun that no car can mimic. Driver's car's are the new horses; their performance is inferior, but they offer an enjoyable experience which can never be mimicked by a DSG gearbox.
marshknute 1 month ago
@kzam90 Horrible metaphor, just plaily bad.
vithaj92 2 weeks ago
@marshknute wish F1 guys thought the same ...
masfuertemasraro 3 weeks ago
@marshknute yeah, lets put a manual gearbox in an F1 car too while you are at it!
MagicAyrtonforever 3 weeks ago
@MagicAyrtonforever Ayrton Senna drove a manual transmission F1 car. That said, I never criticized the use of paddle-shift transmissions in race cars. After all, 0.3 seconds does make a difference in a race. An F1 car is not a Driver's Car. It was designed solely for speed, not for driving fun. Any F1 driver will tell you that their car is extremely difficult to drive and very unforgiving.
marshknute 3 weeks ago
@marshknute I agree, but when you get to my age, to have fun you don't need a heavy clutch pedal to operate a million times a lap.
MagicAyrtonforever 3 weeks ago
@marshknute That your idea mate, and I respect that. But if you think you know better, then why don't you build your own car or buy one of those cars and modify it to your liking, I mean no one is stopping you.... Your claiming that the car companies do not know how to build certain cars..... They have been in the business for DECADES....
Your complaints is analogous to this:
A 2 year old trying to tell a Physicist why the LAWS OF PHYSICS are completely and utterly WRONG.
shinkueagle 2 weeks ago
@shinkueagle What are you talking about? I never said that manual transmissions are faster or more efficient than paddle-shift gearboxes. I said they are more FUN. Fun is not measured objectively. Fun is measured by the smile on your face, and people who know how to drive a manual properly will tell you that it is more FUN than any flappy paddle. I fully support flappy paddles in racing b/c every millisecond counts. Having fun is what counts on a morning commute.
marshknute 1 week ago
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@shinkueagle What are you talking about? I never said that manual transmissions are faster or more efficient than paddle-shift gearboxes. I said they are more FUN. Fun is not measured objectively. Fun is measured by the smile on your face, and people who know how to drive a manual properly will tell you that it is more FUN than any flappy paddle. I fully support flappy paddles in racing b/c every millisecond counts. Having fun is what counts on a morning commute.
marshknute 1 week ago
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@shinkueagle What are you talking about? I never said that manual transmissions are faster or more efficient than paddle-shift gearboxes. I said they are more FUN. Fun is not measured objectively. Fun is measured by the smile on your face, and people who know how to drive a manual properly will tell you that it is more FUN than any flappy paddle. I fully support flappy paddles in racing b/c every millisecond counts. Having fun is what counts on a morning commute.
marshknute 1 week ago
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@shinkueagle What are you talking about? I never said that manual transmissions are faster or more efficient than paddle-shift gearboxes. I said they are more FUN. Fun is not measured objectively. Fun is measured by the smile on your face, and people who know how to drive a manual properly will tell you that it is more FUN than any flappy paddle. I fully support flappy paddles in racing b/c every millisecond counts. Having fun is what counts on a morning commute.
marshknute 1 week ago
@marshknute I guess you want your car without power steering, without ABS, hell modern stick shifts are spoiled by the fact that they have synchros and you don't have to double clutch to shift.
felixhhu 2 weeks ago
@felixhhu Now you're just being ridiculous. There's a difference between technology which relieves hassle and technology which takes away fun. The vast majority of car enthusiasts prefer manual transmissions b/c they are more fun than flappy paddle gearboxes.
marshknute 1 week ago
@marshknute Have you driven a car with an automated manual around the car? Having driven around town in a Camry is quite different from a well set up automated manual.
:ook back 15 years and you will see much of the same line of argument was used with ABS. The Mclaren F1 didn't have ABS and frankly I think it has suffered for it in retrospect. Have you driven a car without power steering? The "connection" to the road is better than any hydraulic or electric power steering rack.
felixhhu 1 week ago
@felixhhu I signed up for the program, World Class Driving, two years ago. I drove a Gallardo Superleggera, 599, SLR McLaren, R8 V10 and Continental Supersports. All of them had flappy-paddle gearboxes, and all of them were jerky and unrewarding. I had more fun driving home in my track-modified 5-speed manual Mazda Miata. It was no more rewarding to flick a paddle in a Ferrari than press the "circle" button in GranTurismo 5. Manual's will forever be more fun than any flappy paddle gearbox.
marshknute 1 week ago 2
@marshknute I prefer manuals too but there is much more to a driver's car than its gearbox.
Buttnut105 1 week ago
@Buttnut105 i totally agree man
supra1722 6 days ago
@supra1722 Thank you.
Buttnut105 6 days ago
@Buttnut105 np :)
supra1722 6 days ago
@marshknute wait, the 458 could be called a driver's car, it is a joy and loves to slide.. though i personally hate paddle shifters, and the transmission is actually fun, don't get me wrong, it is n where close to the joy of a manual transmission.. the GTR has technologically assisted everything, and though it is impressively fast, i agree, it is no where near a driver's car.. i also love the Cayman, and it had one of the best transmissions, but again, not as fun as a manual, still driver's cars
supra1722 6 days ago
@marshknute This is such an ignorant comment based purely on emotion and anyone who says "flappy paddle" sounds like a kook who watched an episode of Top Gear and now thinks they are Clarkson.
I've been racing for 25 years starting at 15 at the Jim Hall Kart Racing School where I became an instructor and then moved on to being an instructor at Skip Barber at Laguna. I spent half a day learning how to heel toe and never thought about it again. Manually shifting gears is dead and good riddance.
raceboy1971 6 days ago
@raceboy1971 You are the ignorant one. MT specifically stated that a driver's car is an emotional car, not the fastest car. Why else do you think the 167 hp Miata finished ahead of the 640 hp Corvette ZR1 in MT's 2009 Driver's Car Competition? I am a 4-time Skip Barber graduate, myself, (Limerock Raceway in CT) and compete in clubspec events with my local Miata club. Manuals are more fun. I'm not alone in thinking that, since my comment is the highest rated comment for over 3 months.
marshknute 6 days ago
@raceboy1971 As you are an instructor, I can appreciate why you like paddle-shift gearboxes: they are faster, more precise and allow you to concentrate on squeezing another few tenths of a second out of each lap. A driver's car, however, is about having fun. It's about being one with the machine and enjoying the sensation of rowing through the gears.
marshknute 6 days ago
@raceboy1971 My Miata club often shares a track with the local Porsche club. Over 90% of the cars have manual transmissions, even the new Caymans and 911's. Unlike you, we don't care to shave time off of our laps. We just want to have fun, and a paddle-shift gearbox robs us of the fun. A car isn't a driver's car if the car does all the work for the driver. I fully support paddle-shift gearboxes for racing, since every tenth counts. For having fun, however, it's manual or nothing.
marshknute 6 days ago
People just because a Mustang was faster on this track doesn't mean it will e faster on every track.
namybot 3 months ago
FUCK IM GETTING cayman r but pdk sounds so tempting with its 7 gears faster shifting launch control and better gas mileage, but a clutch is so fucking fun
edoloman24 3 months ago
@ alexthesportsfanatic Porsche did it in 1.41.64 mustang is faster that day same conditions by .58 of a second and it has a back seat just so you don't hurt your brain doing math
t7e4x8a4s 3 months ago
@ Alexthesportsfanatic actually the boss 302 mustang did it in 1.41.06 which is faster than the cayman r , I like Porsche but you should check your facts before you look like a fool
t7e4x8a4s 3 months ago 9
Does that even matter? It's a fucking Porsche. Automobiles are all about engineering and if you ask ANY engineer, a Porsche takes the cake every time. I would also want a 5 speed manual though. A manual cars feels so much more alive and powerful plus the excitement from driving with a clutch is worth the milliseconds lost in drag times.
animalmcburger 1 month ago
@t7e4x8a4s When Randy Pobst drove both cars around Laguna Seca, he lapped the Boss 302 in 1:43.0 and the Cayman R in 1:41.64. Same driver goes faster in the Cayman R.
barefeats 1 month ago
@t7e4x8a4s a reason for that was the car being especially engineered for this track, and it having the advantage in the longer straight parts of the track, with 110 more horsepower.. :)
supra1722 6 days ago
I drove one of these yesterday.. you hit a bump mid corner and it will understeer alright! front feels a little light like an old 911.. which I suppose isn't a bad thing and would probably take some getting used to.
MagicAyrtonforever 3 months ago
im not a porsche person more or less a gtr/Z06 person however this will be one porsche that I do love, kills off a bmw 1 series M
Brendon00000 4 months ago
Autocar just named the Porsche Cayman R the "Best Driver's" car and rightly so IMO. Motor trend somehow ranked it 3 or 4th which is flat BS. MT chose the GT-R which auto-corrects just about everything and is widely known not to be one of the best driver's car. I bet they got a fat check from Nissan.
mrcardio9r 4 months ago
@mrcardio9r They chose the ferrari.
Inklebonker1 4 months ago
Why is everyone shooting down the mustang. Get it through your heads people! A mustang (A MUSTANG!!) runs toe to toe with a porsche and does alright. Now thats a win for the mustang by my terms, even if the Porsche costed more!
Inklebonker1 4 months ago
I got to drive a blue one hard a few months back. It's good, great even. Tires on the numb side, kind of racecarish feel without being too totally serious on the handling side. But I actually prefer the Cayman S for added playfulness. The R understeers a wee bit too much for my liking. And it's too expensive compared to the other Caymans.
MadCat360 5 months ago
with 2 more seats and a large trunk actually its pretty impressive how a mustang even beat a porsche at all. A far more expensive porsche at that. Imagine a far more expensive rear engine 2 seat ford. Oh wait thats a ford GT, and a new updated GT would rape everything here, or at least match it.
rehsa2194 5 months ago
It's a Porsche
LAtrailers 5 months ago
@LAtrailers well spotted.
NottinghamForest22 5 months ago
@TheBottoz
The car companies decide what tires to outfit the car with, similarly to how they decide what springs/shocks and brakes go on the car. By changing the tires, you (however slightly) modify the car from stock.
MrTakaMOSHi 5 months ago
why do they cover the emblem? lol
spitty3d 5 months ago
looks much more balanced compare to the 911
schecterguitarsfan 5 months ago
This is undeniably the best car Porsche makes. I can't wait to see the 2013 redesign. The spy shots show a 911-inspired design and it should see modest hp gains with improved fuel economy and the new 7-speed manual. Hopefully, Porsche will make a special edition (Cayman GT2 RS?) so we can see this car's true potential.
marshknute 6 months ago
plz get me 1 ;)
26throttle 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 - 1:34.43
Lexus LFA - 1:36.39
Porsche 911 GT3 RS - 1:36.77
Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG - 1:38.82
Boss 302 Laguna Seca - 1:41.06
Porshce Coxster ( Cayman R) - 1:41.64
Lotus Evora - 1:42.49
BMW 1M - 1:43.31
Thumbs up
nappiral 6 months ago
A good car that is only held from greatness by its big brother, the 911. This chassis could handle more power yet. I bought a Boss 302 because of the practicality, but I do love this little car.
thesodashakers 6 months ago
Corvette Z06!
mobrien888 6 months ago
@matdewey and the GT3 RS was faster than the boss
itchytasty100 6 months ago
what are the dots on his steering wheel for?
danarsenalfc1 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Lexus LFA - 1:36.39
Porsche 911 GT3 RS - 1:36.77
Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG - 1:38.82
Boss 302 Laguna Seca - 1:41.06
Porshce Coxster ( Cayman R) - 1:41.64
Lotus Evora - 1:42.49
BMW 1M - 1:43.31
nappiral 6 months ago
the driver reminds me of that very cool uncle that everyone has
cMillz61FO 6 months ago
*array even
jibbinjunglist 6 months ago
"Probably the best handling car I've ever driven" - Randy Pobst
Wow, that's saying a lot! Especially from a man that has driven a wide arrange of street and track cars.
jibbinjunglist 6 months ago
braking/downshifting could have been better in turn 4 and maybe bring down the time by a few tenths
MrTNL3 6 months ago
TIME 1:41.6
optoomistic 6 months ago
This car sounds amazing! But I would much prefer the Mustang's performance over this....
gooniac33 6 months ago
In my opinion, if you like hot women, the Porsche beats the Mustang no matter what the lap time says.
mobrien888 6 months ago
@mobrien888 porches are ugly overrated nazi cars
proudstr8 6 months ago
@proudstr8 I 100% agree with you good sir
dice010693 6 months ago
@proudstr8 how can you say something is overrated or underrated when you obviously never even drove it...porsches are very accurately-rated nazi cars that regularly shit on red neck cars.......there is nothing else to say.
justforwatchingcraps 6 months ago
@justforwatchingcraps they look so ugly though, hitler wanted the porsches to look that way, and porsche se is still following that nazi tradition. long ago hitler came up with the classical porsches and vw beetles design and had porsche adapt the concepts into real cars, and they still havent changed the look yet. no wonder they are so ugly.
its fast sure, handles great, yep, but its damn ugly. sorry id rather have a bmw or a mercedes if we're talking german cars
proudstr8 6 months ago
@proudstr8 ummm..well i'm not sure how true that is, but either way hitler is not a reason to dislike porsche, thats dumb. yea they aren't the best looking cars, 911s look great in my opinion, but all of them have that distinct porsche style. regardless of their looks, they are incredible cars that are just undeniable if you love driving. they easily drive circles around both bmw and merc and do it without flash or gimmicks. porsche is more about getting shit right than flash/appearances.
justforwatchingcraps 6 months ago
@justforwatchingcraps i dont think bmw is that flashy. except for the angel eyes, the chassis of bmws are usually normal looking, which is my kind of car. mercedes are usually stylish and sporty, but always look great
porsches are the ones with the flashy gimmick shit. why else would it pretentiously separate itself with that ugly unique look? it just has prestige that makes everyone think its soooo great. waste of money
proudstr8 6 months ago
@proudstr8 where do u think that prestige comes from? being unique isn't being flashy, its an old look that doesn't grab attention anymore, its the opposite of flashy. the car itself is utterly amazing in every way....the only people who would agree with you are in youtube comments sections. anyone who actually drove this car or a 911 gt3 loved it, it got universal acclaim...don't you think after a certain point ur just bullshitting yourself because you just don't want to like porsche?
justforwatchingcraps 5 months ago
@justforwatchingcraps it definitely grabs attention on the street, it goes "look at my weird looking design im so pretentious and neat looking, im such a status symbol go waste money on me".
im not surprised that so many people jump on the porsche bandwagon and dream about getting one. people also think overpriced italian clothes made in chinese sweatshops are status symbols too. if more people knew that porsche was hitlers ideal nazi car then maybe theyd stop thinking that they're so great
proudstr8 5 months ago
@proudstr8 What about being the best handling car one can buy?? I like the Z06 Corvette better... much quicker lap time, but like the driver said about the Cayman R, "What apex?".
BarryObummer 5 months ago
@BarryObummer it may as well fly for all i care porsches still looks ugly as hell
want handling? get a lotus elise or exige. looks good and performs well
proudstr8 5 months ago
@proudstr8 you are a dick
DBZ5371 5 months ago
He would've had a better time if he hadn't downshifted an extra gear going into 3 and 5.
itlogo 6 months ago
That would be really cool if they synced a camera to the car's gauges and played it along with the rest of the video, in the corner of the screen of something
Nate5237 6 months ago
Not bad 1:41.64sec, but with a Cayman S I did it in 1:39.87....... In Forza 3 :p
Nice Video BTW!
therence26 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"wow the mustang boss 302 beat this with a time of 1.41.06 incredible!"
440 hp Mustang: 1:41:64 sec
330 hp Porsche: 1:41:06 sec
criscros7 6 months ago
so far: LFA, Cayman R, Boss.
mattybumpo68 6 months ago
@Cerberusphere i'm with you on that. can't deny how great the bosses are, the other day i saw one and got really excited but i'd still take the cayman r any day :)
mattybumpo68 6 months ago
that color makes it look like Kermit the Frog.
datboiwes333 6 months ago
what apex hahaha
stevestutz 6 months ago
You know there are mustang fanboys when every top comment on these videos are about the Boss 302 beating obviously slower cars...
petrolhead229 6 months ago
@petrolhead229 The Shelby Gt500 is obviously faster on the straight line when compared to the little brother the BoSS but clocks a 1.44:xx laptime. The cayman r has a good power to weight ratio. It's 318kg (700 lbs) lighter. The Cayman superior dive-train layout is one of many of its advantages . Everyone expects a GTR or a Porshe to be fast on the track, but not an LRA Mustang.
greenfaction4 6 months ago
@petrolhead229 It is just amazing that it beats cars with far more power and that cost 4 times as much.
TheTopGun920 6 months ago
@TheTopGun920 I know its amazing, but it seems like the Boss is the only car that people are caring about... which is odd.
petrolhead229 6 months ago
Basically the only real Porsche there are is the 911.
TheBlessedbabi 6 months ago
Imagine if porsche actually gave this car the power of a GT3. It would hunt down everything else.
DualofChaos 6 months ago
the boss 302 is a great car despite weighing over 800 pounds more it edges out the cayman, lets not forget tho that the boss 302 has 110 more horsepower.
EditCrew 6 months ago
I love porsches!!!
manfer85225 6 months ago
If you want a super fast car the has good value but isn't all that fun to drive buy a GTR. If you want a pure drivers car that is VERY fun to drive and relatively inexpensive for what you are getting buy an Exige!!!
ShermanMR2 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Lap Times
Lexus LFA - 1:36.39
Boss 302 Laguna Seca - 1:41:06
Porshce Coxster ( Cayman R) - 1:41:64
Lotus Evora - 1:42:49
BMW 1M - 1:43:31
nappiral 6 months ago
THIS BEAT THE 1M! OH YEAH
giannicabiglio 6 months ago
The handling is Awesome, but this is not the kind of car for this track, lacks of power for it.
krnt13 6 months ago
The cayman R is described by many motoring journalists and racing drivers as the sweetest handling road car ever made. that's what you're paying the extra for.
DumpValvesAndDnB 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
so far...
Lexus LFA - 1:36.39
Boss 302 Laguna Seca - 1:41:06
Porshce Coxster ( Cayman R) - 1:41:64
Lotus Evora - 1:42:49
nappiral 6 months ago
The Boss 302 Mustang wins by a cunt hair.
MoreGrievances 6 months ago
@MoreGrievances They boss wins by a "hair"? It cost 20k less then this car thats a pretty big win!! The Boss is faster then cars, that cost way more then it does, it's a giant killer!! !!nuff said!!
Eddiewmusic 6 months ago
ummm y is he in auto mode?
fc8697syp 6 months ago
Strap a turbo on this an call it a day. Best track day car under 80k
Mosheh1am 6 months ago
Why cant they tune that flat 6 to 408 hp like the 911 gts? SAD FACE :( !!! p.s. nerd alert on the driver.
BrantFortunate 6 months ago
@BrantFortunate Because then it would be competing with its own more expensive product
onoff314 6 months ago
@onoff314 great point! but still. :(
BrantFortunate 6 months ago
@BrantFortunate nerd alert? thats Randy Pobst fool, he races cars for a living
n9athan 6 months ago
@n9athan Im familiar with him, but just because you have a cool job doesnt mean you cant still be a nerd. ;)
BrantFortunate 6 months ago
I dont pay much attention to MTs times and numbers. The videos are nice to watch tho. Also i dont believe in "hot lapse" when trying to see whats "best". Either best out of 3 after tire warmup or 3 averaged is a much better way imo.
DoggysStyle 6 months ago
Pobst was speachless.......
terrancep123 6 months ago
Pobst: "May well be the best handling car I've ever driven!"
Good night, everyone!
BlackDynamiteNYC 6 months ago 2
@BlackDynamiteNYC yeah, if it had more power it would be porsches fastest car.
n9athan 6 months ago
the color is awesome. sorry its not black or red like 99% of all performance cars...
FlatoutDodge 6 months ago 34
@FlatoutDodge A big time Dodge fan that can give credit where credit is due, even overseas. You're alright, my friend, as I am in the same situation as you.
ud0ntkn0w 6 months ago
@FlatoutDodge anything below 911 in prosche's stock, aren't performance cars..
shulya 6 months ago
@FlatoutDodge I still prefer Speedy Yellow color!!
fctsui57 5 months ago
@FlatoutDodge lambo has this color dumbass
spitty3d 5 months ago
@spitty3d its nice to see that mentally retarded children can use the internet too
FlatoutDodge 5 months ago
@FlatoutDodge explain? idiot
spitty3d 5 months ago
@spitty3d thats cute
FlatoutDodge 5 months ago
The boss had a better lap
matdewey 6 months ago 2
@matdewey utterly irrelevant, this is a handling test and largely subjective...the merc sls has a better time than both and its a sloppy GT car, all due to its sledge hammer torque.
justforwatchingcraps 6 months ago
Comment removed
TheThedragonwarrior 6 months ago
Respond to this video... lets face it ford can make a car that will probably put this completely to shame and still cost around the same, however it is not how fast a car will get you around a lap it is how it made you feel getting around that lap
TheThedragonwarrior 6 months ago
@matdewey yeah, that would tend to be the case with 114 extra bhp on laguna seca.
oneshotcon 6 months ago
@matdewey it had a better lap, 0.5s with 120hp more... LOL
weed46 6 months ago
more commentary less car view
vsc1217 6 months ago
I would love to see the ranks
Panquee4466 6 months ago
motortrend pls do a hot lap in 2011 m3 DCT w/competition package
Zagato8D 6 months ago
Give the 70s back their horrible car colors!
pwnageness 6 months ago 2
Intersting facts here: I found my 2009 MT magazine with the best driver cars and the Cayman S PDK lapped in 1:43.0. Better than the Mustang Shelby GT500 that did the same in 1:44.3.
Now the Cayman R improves that time by almost a second and a half and the Boss Laguna Seca seems so good that beats them all by about 0.5 sec! Nice cars :))
MarMPB 6 months ago
BMW 1M is better
Mehulbummer 6 months ago
@Mehulbummer it's called the M1, and it's not better by the way. You sound like a fanboy
ud0ntkn0w 6 months ago
@ud0ntkn0w I think he means the BMW 1 series M coupe that came out this year. not the 1978 BMW M1 :)
ARCHERLM 6 months ago
@ud0ntkn0w I'm assuming they're talking about the new 1M, not the vaunted M1 of the past. Know your cars before you bash anyone.
apt9806 6 months ago
@apt9806 Well my knowledge of BMW isn't superb, I just know the surface. My bad, I hadn't realized the official name was the "1 Series M coupe" or whatever, I assumed it was M1 like the rest of them. I'm more a fan of other makes anyway. "BMW 1M is better" still sounds like a major fanboy comment though, you have to agree to that.
ud0ntkn0w 6 months ago
@ud0ntkn0w LOL the 1m "better" than the caymanR, most ignorant comment of the day. Sorry you had to deal with that.
n9athan 6 months ago
@n9athan Haha it makes life fun it's all good. See I'm a mad Dodge fanboy, and haters gonna hate of course, but my dad passed his love of dodge since the 60s down to me so I love it too. I don't post fanboy comments like "Dodge _______ is better" though, cuz even I know I'd sound stupid. Just bringing up something having absolutely nothing to do with the video.
ud0ntkn0w 6 months ago
@ud0ntkn0w haha hayabusa is better
n9athan 6 months ago
@n9athan ok, at the expense of my dignity I ask you. What is Hayabusa?
ud0ntkn0w 6 months ago
@ud0ntkn0w A very fast motorbike
onoff314 6 months ago
@ud0ntkn0w /watch?v=BBtwRAbul1Y
n9athan 6 months ago
Price as tested over $78,000 that's almost as much as a ZO6 and about $30,000 more than the Boss Laguna Seca.
1vdn992 6 months ago
not a bad lap time for a somewhat affordable car. nice
paradoxdesigns 6 months ago
Honestly, i dont like these videos. Make a review, not a guy driving on a track saying 2 or 3 things.
SiMz818 6 months ago
Comment removed
Zagato8D 6 months ago
@SiMz818 the title says hot lap not a cayman r review!
Zagato8D 6 months ago
Love how they are doing the track times. The should have a ranking though
Zterruh 6 months ago
please put the speedometer on the screen..
smekese 6 months ago
The 'MOTHERS' sign makes you go faster or slower depending on your childhood.
ImHereToAnnoyYou 6 months ago