the red bull cars are so fast.... the really did a good job with it this year. basically fixed whatever quirks from last year and didn't try anything fancy. even though im a Mclaren fan. i have to give respect to Vettel and redbull.
@floorbrother You can't compare anyone to Senna, especially not Vettel. Senna probably made more overtakes in one race than Vettel did for the entire of 2011 season.
@i0wned it's not about overtaking, it's about the skill to focus on one lap and this is what senna and nowadays vettel make perfectly! this did not change throughout the years. webber used to be the best qualifier in the 2000s, but he never really had a chance last year against vettel
@arnold4life476 schumacher never was such a good qualifier compared to senna. he's more a man for races. i think no-one can defend a position as good as him as we've seen in monza. but imho his qualifying results in the past didn't make him that famous
@TheBennybenax What? You wanna go back to the days of maybe a few overtakes, most done in the pitlane? I really hate you fanboys who always are complaining and always think the past was better. We had fucking races where the starting grid didn't change much over the whole fucking race and now you are bitching because people overtake? God I fucking hate you people.
@philateliceun Motorsport is not only overtakes and excitment.. anyway 2011 was a good year for F1.. many overtakes and fights.. bt many of them seems like.. fake.. hope Fia will think about drs and tyres in the future cuz they influence so much the races.. the engines, V8, are nothing special i prefer the "old" V10 or V12.. But i'm thinking for the future not complaining the past.. Lastly don't hate or insult anyone we're just speaking about F1.. not soccer..
@ohargreaves here's a history lesson: Webber couldn't win crap before 2009...he was always around 12th...in 2009 though he suddenly became 4th, above Lewis the 08 champ and 07 almost champ!
So do you think Webber suddenly found some serious talent up his ass or their car was faster?
they have the same car...
seb has 30 poles;proof to my point;faster car but he can't overtake for sh#t;the winner isn't always the best(mark's fastest laps are better than seb's..he's just too old now)
@TheXdmgx7 Webber actually did quite well considering he was driving cars like the Minardi and Jaguar. He is a very decent driver, even if he isn't one of the elite.
The only reason people say Vettel can't overtake is because he caused 2 collisions when trying to do it in 2010. This year he has improved significantly and has shown that he can overtake. He has 30 poles because he is the best qualifier, hands down- look at Hungary and Japan when Mclaren were faster- Vettel still took pole.
webber is fast you are right...in fact faster than Vettel...but vettel is a great strategist...he wins poles being slower, he wins races posting slower times, not overtaking...weird right?
there have been less than 5 times(i guess) that he ranked better than his start...
good drivers can start 3rd and win
2011 Canada, many of senna's races, some of lewis' races...find good drivers in those races
@TheXdmgx7 I wouldn't say Webber is faster than Vettel. Webber sets more fastest laps in the race because he still finds himself pushing to improve his position towards the end of a race (on low fuel) when SV is just bringing the car home after being faster over the race distance. SV doesn't set the pole time by being slower.
Yes, I like to see drivers start from the back and win. But I also appreciate drivers who are fast in qualifying (like Vettel, Alonso) and put in great laps on a Saturday.
@ohargreaves Lewis and Jenson are pushing too, but they post way less fastest laps, cuz their car is slower...switch their cars with eachother and "VS" won't have a chance...sadly that's not gonna happen:D
well in that case you should like nascar too!!! F1 is about corners and turns and overtakes.we all agree that Senna was the best and he only won 3.his car was slower for 2 years...way slower but he could manage to overtake and win.that's what makes legends legends.not just winning
@TheXdmgx7 Yes, but considering that Vettel is just 24, he has plenty of time to become even more of a legend. His 2008 season in the midfield points to him being able to perform well in a slower car if it happens again.
Hamilton and Button are pushing, but Button's problem is his lacklustre qualifying pace, and Hamilton's problem are the mistakes and on-track poor decisions he has made, which put him behind Button and Alonso in 2011.
@TheXdmgx7 Vettel has shaken off that tag given to him because of 2 collisions. So you can talk all you want about him never being a legend but considering what he has done in just 4 seasons, he is well on the way there. Good discussion, enjoy the 2012 season.
@TheXdmgx7 Your King is dead. Long life the new king: Sebastian Vettel!!! it´s almost the same: i think even when senna shit on the street, the people say: wow it´s magic :D come on ! why shouldn´t vettel be legend? not now but in the future. lg a senna & vettel fan
@roobberyy my current "king" is Lewis...love his style and he needed 1 point to be the youngest F1 winner ever...sadly Raikonen got lucky...that's most of Seb's reputation gone
all i can say is to go see Senna's races and compare it...a rational and sensible person would see the difference between a legend and a finger!
@TheXdmgx7 Sadly for you that was Hamilton's best season. He lost a 17 point lead in 2 races, and ended up losing the title. He almost lost it again the following year, but took a deserved title in the end.
A rational person would say that the likes of Senna, Prost, Schumacher and Clark are legends. And a rational person would say that Vettel could become a legend in the future.
@TheXdmgx7 and a f1 fan would see that seb makes a impressive job for his age. he also make toro toro rosso and red bull to a winner team. vettel has plenty of time to be a legend..... and in a few years he gonna kick fernando´s ass at ferrari :D
@TheXdmgx7 "there has never been an argument about Lewis or jenson or michael not being able to overtake." You are a retard, a few years back everybody thought Jenson was just a midfield driver, someone who was lucky to have 1 win. Please, fuck the fanboyism and just enjoy F1 for fucks sake.
Supprised Massa didn't turn in on Vettel then blame him for the crash that would happen, but you know, he only likes the turn in or put his car in stupid places when Hamilton is around so in a way i'm not really supprised. :D
@godsmackssa That proves nothing. F1 history is filled with drivers who failed to win championships in the lesser formulae (GP2, F3000, F2, F3, whatever...) but won the WDC and even more drivers who won championships in lesser formulae only to stumble when reaching F1.
@Caseestoner I'm sorry, but is that a joke, or do you seriously believe he's skillful compared to the likes of Vettel, Button, Webber, Alonso, Rosberg, Heidfeld, Petrov, Sutil, etc, etc, etc?
@ShiningNow Heidfeld, Petrov and Sutil, YES, definitely! Shit, he outpaced Heidfeld completely as his teammate in 2010, a seasoned driver with way better knowledge about the circuits than him...he beat Petrov in a slower Sauber in 2010 to his Renault, hell, Petrov struggled to overhaul Heidfeld's point total despite having raced a further 8 races! Sutil, well, he spent much of the season being outqualified by a rookie, who, if given as much time as Sutil was, will become a race winner.
That's wrong. It's your opinion because u are not a Red Bull or Vettel Fan. Red Bull is the best Team and got the best driver. Sometimes a driver is better and sometimes not. Now Vettel is better than all other driver. Then a time will come that Di Resta is the best or a other driver. Ferrari or McLaren got good team members, but they also need to be a team and do their job as well as Red Bull does it. Sorry for my bad english.
@IntermitenciaMental Well nevertheless, it's about beng in the right tea at the right time, and Vettel is, like Lewis joined mclaren, in the year Mclaren would have absolutely dominated, if all that legal stuff didn't happen 2007
There's no denying Vettel has natural talent, he didn't win the championship twice just because he's got a good car. It's also a team effort - the group of mechanics around Vettel also make a difference. Just look at Webber and where he is right now. If it wasn't for Vettel and the car setup provided to him by his mechanics (based largely on Vettel's feedback), the Red Bull team would probably be 3rd!
@foxtrotblack Vergne set that in the daytime, when the track is far warmer and faster than at night, when Vettel set his time.
Vettel scored on his debut, took 9 points finishes including that win in a midfield car, outscored his teammate 35-4 in 2008, is a double world champion, winning in 2010 (despite 3 car failures while leading) has 21 wins, 29 poles, and has whooped his teammate this year. You're the laughing stock if you seriously can't figure out that he might be a great driver.
@foxtrotblack Vettel is maximising the potential of his car, you cannot ask for any more from a driver, and this year, only Alonso has effectively done the same with the car he was given. You can continue saying "Hamilton and Alonso are better" and using laughable hypothetical situations but that doesn't make it true, especially when Hamilton has been beaten by Button this year. Based on current form, Alonso and Vettel are the best out there. Overall, Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are pretty even.
@ohargreaves Vettel on pole position just runs away with a clear track in front of him. Only rare occasions he made some overtakes and for a DOUBLE world champion it isn't very impressive. In germany, when he qualified 3rd, he was shit in the race, he would have finished 5th if he didnt jumped felipe massa in the pit stop. He couldnt overtake a slow massa who is in much slower ferrari. Both had same tyres age, yet vettel remained stuck behind massa for 20 laps.
@neerajmjj And for a double world champion, his qualifying strike rate is incredibly good. That's why he gets himself a clear track. You have to be an excellent driver to make the most of your car, and that is what Vettel practically always does.
@ohargreaves Vettel got pole position in monza on his debut, just coz he was lucky to set his lap when the track was still dry. Secondly, the Adrian Newey fantastic red bull car is one of the best cars in formula 1 history. The chassis is one of best ever made. In engineering Adrian Newey is the master of puppets. He is just the best engineer in current formula 1. Thirdly, i explain the advantages vettel has over webber, so vettel didnt whopped webber by pure talent.
@neerajmjj Vettel is favoured over Webber because he's outperformed him every season. Webber simply isn't as good as Vettel. It happens at any team where one driver keeps beating the other. Pointing out one bad race he had this year doesn't really prove any point in a season where he has won 11 races. Face it, his pointscoring debut in 2007, regular points finishes in 08, Monza win/pole, and 2 titles follow quite an unmissable pattern. Vettel is clearly one of the most talented drivers today.
@ohargreaves only his title in 2011 was inmissable. In 2010, he crashed into button and webber. In abu dhabi, Alonso would have been world champion in 2010 if he wasn't stuck behind vitaly petrov. Abu dhabi without drs is difficult to overtake. They even thought to change the track layout just because there wasnt much overtaking in 2010. It proves that its a fact that it difficult to overtake in abu dhabi.
@neerajmjj He made poor errors at Spa and Istanbul, which meant that he threw away points, however, he also lost more points than anyone to mechanical failure last year (Korea, Australia and Bahrain).
I am not "blind in love with Vettel", I just acknowledge that Vettel is better than Webber. I accepted that Webber is heavier than Vettel, but similarly, Button is taller and heavier than Hamilton. Despite this year's standings, people usually still usually consider Hamilton to be more talented.
Yes hamilton has a weight advantage over button. I personally believe that button is much better in car sensitivity. But hamilton seem to know a bit better of the racing line. If button works more on his racing line, he would out qualifying hamilton more often.
Man you seem to be blind in love with vettel, i explained you the weight advantage vettel has over webber. Weight ruins everythings in a F1 car, it affect the weight distribution, the acceleration of the car, cornering speed, braking, even tyre wear. I even explained his win in Monza. Qualifying he is good, i dont say no. But as a RACER, he is nowhere near alonso or hamilton and maybe even button.
Alonso and Hamilton are still better racers, but Vettel has shown significant improvement this year and makes up for this "shortcoming" with his Saturday afternoon strength, which you have admitted.
@ohargreaves My goodness :-O, you still dont get it! he is good but he also has a weight advantage. It isnt fair to webber. So you cannot really say that vettel. Moreover, formula 1 is about RACING at an incredible speed and not qualifying on a deserted track.
@neerajmjj F1 is about winning, regardless of whether you overtake a bunch of other cars to do it or whether you dominate from pole. SV chooses the latter.
I know SV has a weight advantage, which does help him be faster (as I acknowledged earlier). But it just won't stop fans and pundits comparing the speed and ability of drivers to their teammates/other drivers who may have a different height /weight (unfair advantage as you say).
@neerajmjj I didn't say F1 wasn't about racing. But how can you not see that the teams set out to win? Their shared goal of winning pushes them to hire the best drivers and build the best car. They all want to go as fast as possible. That creates the competition in a race. This year, one car/drive combination has outshone the rest by a large margin, which means that they have won the titles. Now what are Vettel and Red Bull doing wrong? Should they slow down so they can "race" the others?
@ohargreaves No all i want to say that Vettel does not really deserve so many wins because he has an advantage over webber.
You and some people say that vettel is better than webber just by counting his points and his wins. But the true fact, he has an unfair advantage thus that is called cheating. What could be done is to add weight in the drivers cockpit so that to make all cockpits the same weight. Then you'll see, webber would be much closer to vettel or even beat vettel.
@neerajmjj I don't believe you can accuse shorter drivers of cheating because of something that isn't entirely in their control. While every detail can make some kind of difference to an F1 car, as @suckieduckie said, there are other factors to take into account. We can't assume that Webber would beat Vettel if SV had weight added to his car, simply because the FIA haven't introduced such a rule and we have no way of finding out.
@ohargreaves You admitted vettel has an advantage over webber. That's all!!! yes we have no way to find out. But that doesnt mean webber is less talented than vettel.
@ohargreaves If FIA add weight to the cockpit of the cars (suppose add 17kg in vettel and 5kg in webber car then both would weigh 80kg) you agree it will slow vettel down because he wouldnt have any advantage, so it will bring vettel much closer to webber. Vettel isnt good in traffic, then it probable that webber that could go for some wins.
@neerajmjj I just can't give Webber the benefit of the doubt for the fourth year in a row. It's up to him to overcome any disadvantages and prove himself, like Senna, who was taller than Prost, did.
@ohargreaves And vettel still need to convince me and other F1 fans that he can be win without a weight advantage. Overtake cars that are equally fast as him and not overtaking slower cars than him coz he has the best car and also a weight advantage.
@neerajmjj It would be nice for the competition at the front to be closer, but Vettel did just fine when his car wasn't the fastest in 2008 and 2009. The weight issue you cling to isn't in his hands (unless you expect him to put on weight?), and almost every champion had the best car in their title years.
@ohargreaves No, i dont expect him to put on weight but that also means that he'll never be able to justify completely his wins to the few F1 fans who really understand F1. You mean vettel was scoring point consistently when his car wasnt fast. Even paul diresta is scoring point regularly in an inferior force india. There's nothing amazing about vettel! His win in monza was lucky that he got on pole, and there wasnt DRS + in was damp condition so almost no overtaking attempted
@neerajmjj I just can't take your nonsense seriously if your reason for Monza being lucky was that the guys behind him had no DRS to fly past. Di Resta hasn't had any top 5 finishes and only 3 top 8s, Vettel had 5 top 5s with 9 top 8s. Vettel was far more impressive in his car. You came in with a plausible enough factor in driver performance, but you've overplayed it to the extent where your posts have become a joke. I'm not wasting any more time on someone who knows as little about F1 as you.
@ohargreaves man i said inferior force india, u understand that. And dont forget that vettel still had his weight advantage when he was in torro rosso. I know little about F1? You seemed to be a guru because you didnt even know that vettel had a weight advantage. It proves who knows less about F1!! Did you know that even senna went on diet to lose some kgs?
@neerajmjj Well, it wasn't me who thinks that a win is lucky because the highly artificial DRS hadn't been introduced. And it certainly isn't me who uses one factor to overshadow 3 years worth of results in the same car.
@ohargreaves Dont look at points, because points are not given linearly. You agreed with the weight stuff, in 60 lap, vettel gains 60*0.2=12s. Remember that 0.2s could be much more in different tracks. Thats a massive 12s given to him free of any talent. Add 12s in each vettel's win then see where he finishes. Because, you see, there 5 talented world champion on the grid, vettel must have an advantage for him to be so dominant.
@neerajmjj Although you could add 12 seconds, it doesn't take into account whether Vettel is pushing all the time or just trying to maintain a lead at some points.
@ohargreaves F1 drivers always push as hard as they can beat others. In 2008 vettel could aiming to overtake teams like BMW sauder or renault. Ok suppose vettel is 2nd in a race, he is pushing like hell. So it means he get the 12s advantage over a race distance.
@neerajmjj Drivers are usually looking to push as hard as possible, but as I said, drivers sometimes are looking to maintain a lead (Fangio and Prost especially), so you can't fully assume that every driver is at his ultimate pace at all times, especially when drivers often ease off at the end of a race. Other factors can affect the distance between drivers at the end such as safety cars bunching the field up as well.
@ohargreaves You didnt answer my question. i explain more clearly, suppose vettel needs to finish 1st in a race to be world champion and he is 2nd in a race, he is pushing like hell to get 1st. So it means he get the 12s advantage over a race distance!! and What do think you would happen if alonso was alongside vettel in a redbull car?
@ohargreaves Fangio and prost were looking to maintain a position to win the championship. Whereas in 2008 vettel needed to prove himself, so he always pushes like hell to show what he is capable of.
@neerajmjj Which he did very well back then, but I mean now, he often eases up in the final stint, barring some times when he goes for fastest lap in the last 1 or 2 laps.
@ohargreaves You are not completely answering my questions. You are talking like those F1 team boss who answers a question yet not answering the question completely.
@neerajmjj You said "Add 12s in each vettel's win then see where he finishes" because of the weight difference, I'm telling you why doing that isn't always going to be accurate.
This is a tedious discussion, so I'll just sum up my opinion which is: while Vettel is a bit lighter than Webber and Bourdais, forcing the lighter driver to carry extra ballast (which isn't even likely to happen in the near future), wouldn't have lead to either of them beating Vettel in the same car.
@ohargreaves Ok i'll grant you that maybe webber and bourdais isnt talented enough. But vettel still have his advantages, how to believe that he really deserves his wins? and How about alonso in a red bull car? why are you running away from this question? You never answered it.
@neerajmjj My opinion is that his lighter weight isn't a significant enough factor to affect whether he deserve his wins or not. There's nothing that can be done about his natural build.
@ohargreaves Actually alonso is more talented than vettel. But you know what, over a season vettel would beat alonso despite having the same red bull car. You know why?? its because in qualifying vettel would have his 0.2s advantage and over a race distance he'll get 12s. And over a season vettel would beat the much more talented and deserving alonso. How fair is that??????????
@neerajmjj As I said, there's nothing that can be done about his natural build. Drivers train to be as fit as possible for their build, which minimises the advantage you keep claiming makes such a big difference.
As for who's more "talented" or "deserving", that's nothing but speculation and opinion. If Alonso was "much more talented", he'd make up the 0.2 you quote through his "talent" and beat Vettel. If Alonso beats Vettel, it would be fair. If Vettel beats Alonso, it would be just as fair.
@ohargreaves You have to work really hard to make up for 0.2s. In formula 1, 0.2s is massive PER lap, which makes a massive 12s over race distance. Sometimes talent is enough to make for 0.2s because a pole position can be decided by just 0.01s. You know what, even I like vettel, his courage to push the car to its limits. But i dont look at him with a narrow mind as you do.
@ohargreaves Man you are running away from the truth, you know that the 0.2s isnt insignificant and the weight isnt insignificant as you read in the article. Im telling you vettel is going win more races and championship but not totally on his talent merit.
@neerajmjj The article you linked to doesn't even mention a difference as big as 0.2s, and was written 2 years ago, before the weight limit was increased. He may win more, he might not, but there won't be much of a difference in terms of how much of it is down to talent, compared to other drivers who win.
@ohargreaves the 0.2s i have heard from martin brundle(ex f1 driver) this year in 2011, i think it was in the race build up or the f1 forum. earlier you acknowledge vettels advantage, now you are changing your mind. Come on it isnt difficult to understand that extra weight slows down an car. And for a 600 kg f1 car, 10 kg isnt negligible, at least not in formula 1.
@neerajmjj I'm not changing my mind, and I haven't said anywhere that extra weight doesn't slow down a car. We agree on that. The minimum weight has been increased since 2009 from 605kg to 620kg, and 620kg to 640kg for this year (check the official F1 site), reducing the advantage lighter drivers get from balancing the car out with more ballast. While the advantage will always be there, it is less than what it was before. Do you agree on that? If so, we can basically leave it there.
@ohargreaves yes but in 2011 martin brundle said , 10 kgs makes a difference of 0.2s. Maybe earlier the advantage was even bigger when the weight limits was less than 640kg
@neerajmjj If those figures are correct about 2011, while considering the fixed weight distribution for the extra ballast in 2011, then it would have been bigger than 0.2 in past years. Guess it comes down to the way some people are born and end up growing.
@ohargreaves I just know having a weight advantages makes you go faster and that's unfair and theirs wins are unjustified. Actually this year i have seen the weight advantages even more, the lighter filipe massa sometime out qualified the much more talented alonso
@neerajmjj It is rather unjustified in Massa's case, as even being shorter and lighter he's only outqualified Alonso 3-4 times in 18 races. Massa's form in the last 2 years has been shocking.
@ohargreaves What do you mean by shocking? I meant that even alonso is much more talented he was out qualified by a slower massa. Yes only a few times, because massa is generally slower than alonso. Morever for me i just know that 0.2 per lap isnt negligible because like i said a pole lap can be decided in 0.01s or even less. So if you put alonso against vettel in the same redbull car, vettel is still most likely to get pole position and win the championship but alonso wont be far behind.
@ohargreaves yes thats because alonso is way better than massa, that's why he got a contract with ferrari till 2016. 0.2 per lap isnt negligible because like i said a pole lap can be decided in 0.01s or even less. So if you put alonso against vettel in the same redbull car (both same talent), vettel is still most likely to get pole position and win the championship but alonso wont be far behind. That's unfair to alonso.
@neerajmjj Perhaps, but there's not much that can be done about it, aside from repeatedly raising the weight limit, which still wouldn't eradicate the difference.
@ohargreaves Raising the weight limit wont eliminate the advantage of lighter drivers. Add weight in the drivers cockpit such that all drivers weighs lets say 80kg. That could be a solution. Do you how i convey this proposal to the FIA?
@ohargreaves I slightly favour hamilton, i can tell u that honesty. But i acknowledge that Alonso is probably the most complete driver. The way he is outperforming his slow ferrari is amazing. What do think you would happen if alonso was alongside vettel in a redbull car? You agree if i say alonso is maybe as talented as vettel?
@neerajmjj Yes, I agree that Alonso is as talented as Vettel, and I think still the best all rounder/most complete driver on the grid. He's been excellent in the Ferrari this year, being consistent and fast.
@ohargreaves You acknowledged vettel's weight advantages, yet you are ignoring it. It shows how cheap and narrow minded your thoughts are. Im investigating the damn thing, not like ignoring fact like you are.
@neerajmjj I didn't ignore your weight stuff. I just have the widely held belief that Vettel is simply better than Webber (and Bourdais), based on the closest comparison we will ever get between 2 drivers- when they are in the same car. If a few kilos makes the entire difference between 11 wins and 0 wins, or 35 points and 4 points, you'd find it very hard to compare any F1 driver to another. Show me hard evidence that Webber or Bourdais were better than Vettel, then I'll take you seriously.
@ohargreaves My goodness :-O, you still dont get it! he is good but he also has a weight advantage. It isnt fair to webber. So you cannot really say that vettel is better. Moreover, formula 1 is about RACING at an incredible speed and not qualifying on a deserted track.
Having the faster car means its harder to drive? That's bollocks, having a
faster usually means you have lighter components and better aerodynamics so even the handling will be easier,
If your talking in the terms of racing a prius compared to an f1 car on the same track then yeah of course it's easier to drive the prius because it's slow etc.
@Kcon83 it really depends on how much effort the team put into the car. F1 cars are still hard to drive regardless of how quick they are, a couple of years ago DC said that it was much harder to drive the faster cars. Just bugs me when people think Vettel has an easy job when factually speaking its never easy even with a dominant car!
@Kcon83 I mean that Vettel is slow and worst driver ever!!! He wins only becouse of his car is so fast, same thing than Webber, but Webber's car is not so fast, Webber is still as driver faster than fat vettel
IMHO....the car's sheer pace played a huge role in this particular instance
dwildkat 2 weeks ago
the red bull cars are so fast.... the really did a good job with it this year. basically fixed whatever quirks from last year and didn't try anything fancy. even though im a Mclaren fan. i have to give respect to Vettel and redbull.
Themayseffect 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
why Vettel is the best: he's as fast as Hamilton, as experienced as Alonso and as race-intelligent as Button.....just all 3 in common!!
torstenp777 1 month ago
vettel is the best qualifier since senna. no-one, really no-one can deny that fact
floorbrother 1 month ago 16
@floorbrother You can't compare anyone to Senna, especially not Vettel. Senna probably made more overtakes in one race than Vettel did for the entire of 2011 season.
i0wned 2 weeks ago
@i0wned it's not about overtaking, it's about the skill to focus on one lap and this is what senna and nowadays vettel make perfectly! this did not change throughout the years. webber used to be the best qualifier in the 2000s, but he never really had a chance last year against vettel
floorbrother 2 weeks ago 5
@floorbrother what about schumacher?
arnold4life476 2 weeks ago
@arnold4life476 schumacher never was such a good qualifier compared to senna. he's more a man for races. i think no-one can defend a position as good as him as we've seen in monza. but imho his qualifying results in the past didn't make him that famous
floorbrother 1 week ago
new tyres vs old tyres... so exiting the F1 nowadays..
TheBennybenax 1 month ago
@TheBennybenax What? You wanna go back to the days of maybe a few overtakes, most done in the pitlane? I really hate you fanboys who always are complaining and always think the past was better. We had fucking races where the starting grid didn't change much over the whole fucking race and now you are bitching because people overtake? God I fucking hate you people.
philateliceun 1 month ago in playlist Meer video's van tbf133
@philateliceun Motorsport is not only overtakes and excitment.. anyway 2011 was a good year for F1.. many overtakes and fights.. bt many of them seems like.. fake.. hope Fia will think about drs and tyres in the future cuz they influence so much the races.. the engines, V8, are nothing special i prefer the "old" V10 or V12.. But i'm thinking for the future not complaining the past.. Lastly don't hate or insult anyone we're just speaking about F1.. not soccer..
TheBennybenax 1 month ago 6
imagine what would happen if a good driver had that car...not just a talentless kid who can't overtake...
TheXdmgx7 1 month ago
@TheXdmgx7 Who's the talentless kid? The double champion who won for STR and has 30 poles already?
ohargreaves 1 month ago
@ohargreaves here's a history lesson: Webber couldn't win crap before 2009...he was always around 12th...in 2009 though he suddenly became 4th, above Lewis the 08 champ and 07 almost champ!
So do you think Webber suddenly found some serious talent up his ass or their car was faster?
they have the same car...
seb has 30 poles;proof to my point;faster car but he can't overtake for sh#t;the winner isn't always the best(mark's fastest laps are better than seb's..he's just too old now)
TheXdmgx7 1 month ago
@TheXdmgx7 Webber actually did quite well considering he was driving cars like the Minardi and Jaguar. He is a very decent driver, even if he isn't one of the elite.
The only reason people say Vettel can't overtake is because he caused 2 collisions when trying to do it in 2010. This year he has improved significantly and has shown that he can overtake. He has 30 poles because he is the best qualifier, hands down- look at Hungary and Japan when Mclaren were faster- Vettel still took pole.
ohargreaves 1 month ago
@ohargreaves
webber is fast you are right...in fact faster than Vettel...but vettel is a great strategist...he wins poles being slower, he wins races posting slower times, not overtaking...weird right?
there have been less than 5 times(i guess) that he ranked better than his start...
good drivers can start 3rd and win
2011 Canada, many of senna's races, some of lewis' races...find good drivers in those races
i admit tho, he is getting better
(search vettel's overtaking stats lol)
TheXdmgx7 1 month ago
@TheXdmgx7 I wouldn't say Webber is faster than Vettel. Webber sets more fastest laps in the race because he still finds himself pushing to improve his position towards the end of a race (on low fuel) when SV is just bringing the car home after being faster over the race distance. SV doesn't set the pole time by being slower.
Yes, I like to see drivers start from the back and win. But I also appreciate drivers who are fast in qualifying (like Vettel, Alonso) and put in great laps on a Saturday.
ohargreaves 1 month ago
@ohargreaves Lewis and Jenson are pushing too, but they post way less fastest laps, cuz their car is slower...switch their cars with eachother and "VS" won't have a chance...sadly that's not gonna happen:D
well in that case you should like nascar too!!! F1 is about corners and turns and overtakes.we all agree that Senna was the best and he only won 3.his car was slower for 2 years...way slower but he could manage to overtake and win.that's what makes legends legends.not just winning
TheXdmgx7 1 month ago
@TheXdmgx7 Yes, but considering that Vettel is just 24, he has plenty of time to become even more of a legend. His 2008 season in the midfield points to him being able to perform well in a slower car if it happens again.
Hamilton and Button are pushing, but Button's problem is his lacklustre qualifying pace, and Hamilton's problem are the mistakes and on-track poor decisions he has made, which put him behind Button and Alonso in 2011.
ohargreaves 1 month ago
@ohargreaves he's not a legend and he will never be...there has never been an argument about Lewis or jenson or michael not being able to overtake...
time will prove you wrong my friend...
i enjoyed this discussion tho
TheXdmgx7 1 month ago
@TheXdmgx7 Vettel has shaken off that tag given to him because of 2 collisions. So you can talk all you want about him never being a legend but considering what he has done in just 4 seasons, he is well on the way there. Good discussion, enjoy the 2012 season.
ohargreaves 1 month ago
@TheXdmgx7 Your King is dead. Long life the new king: Sebastian Vettel!!! it´s almost the same: i think even when senna shit on the street, the people say: wow it´s magic :D come on ! why shouldn´t vettel be legend? not now but in the future. lg a senna & vettel fan
roobberyy 1 month ago
@roobberyy my current "king" is Lewis...love his style and he needed 1 point to be the youngest F1 winner ever...sadly Raikonen got lucky...that's most of Seb's reputation gone
all i can say is to go see Senna's races and compare it...a rational and sensible person would see the difference between a legend and a finger!
TheXdmgx7 1 month ago
@TheXdmgx7 Sadly for you that was Hamilton's best season. He lost a 17 point lead in 2 races, and ended up losing the title. He almost lost it again the following year, but took a deserved title in the end.
A rational person would say that the likes of Senna, Prost, Schumacher and Clark are legends. And a rational person would say that Vettel could become a legend in the future.
ohargreaves 1 month ago
@TheXdmgx7 and a f1 fan would see that seb makes a impressive job for his age. he also make toro toro rosso and red bull to a winner team. vettel has plenty of time to be a legend..... and in a few years he gonna kick fernando´s ass at ferrari :D
roobberyy 1 month ago 8
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheXdmgx7 "there has never been an argument about Lewis or jenson or michael not being able to overtake." You are a retard, a few years back everybody thought Jenson was just a midfield driver, someone who was lucky to have 1 win. Please, fuck the fanboyism and just enjoy F1 for fucks sake.
philateliceun 1 month ago in playlist Meer video's van tbf133
This is nothing, Grosean.. 3 cars 2 corners, identical cars, no one on "fresh rubber", no kers, no drs, same track.
hell5torm 1 month ago
@hell5torm Yes, and in F1, Grosjean is yet to prove himself.
ohargreaves 1 month ago
looks like a new track :-)
LipoAkku 1 month ago
@LipoAkku
i think its spain
antstero 1 month ago
Great...but if you want to see an amazing lap...Ayrton Senna at Donington 1993...check it out!
18sacky 2 months ago
Good Stuff!
Supprised Massa didn't turn in on Vettel then blame him for the crash that would happen, but you know, he only likes the turn in or put his car in stupid places when Hamilton is around so in a way i'm not really supprised. :D
Shamanat0r 2 months ago
absolutly incredible!
bvbmarkus94 2 months ago
i wonder if he didn't overtake in his outlap.. probably the result is p2 isn't ?
maskmanyeah 2 months ago 10
@maskmanyeah yeah i think so too
ivanshadow19 2 months ago
Fresh tyres and by far the best car, that's all
Vettel is so overrated
Shogo5000 2 months ago
@Shogo5000
Many people who know F1 completely agree with you.
GalaxyPowerTy 2 months ago
@GalaxyPowerTy It's pointless to try to assess relative driver abilities in an era of DRS, mandated tire compounds, and exhaust-blown diffusers.
altroval 2 months ago
Pirelli...
Sato Overtake Alonso 2007 Montreal...
Best car, best tyres, this is so easy.
ScarmondChannel 2 months ago
check out how early vettel is able to accelerate with this RB7 at 0:37
thatsexyman 2 months ago
Tyres....
TheBennybenax 2 months ago 2
Tires...
TheBennybenax 2 months ago 2
Easy Mode.
Medium Mode.
Hard Mode.
Vettel Mode.
ShiningNow 2 months ago 62
This has been flagged as spam show
@ShiningNow Easy Mode.
Medium Mode.
Hard Mode.
red bull Mode
camaro20099 2 months ago
@ShiningNow
Mercedes - Hard Mode
Ferrari - Medium Mode
McLaren - Easy Mode
Red Bull - Vettel Mode
godsmackssa 2 months ago
@godsmackssa :D
ShiningNow 2 months ago
@godsmackssa Don't you mean Red Bull - Easy mode??
Jakejw93 2 months ago
@Jakejw93 so much man...with red bull car...my grandmother is Senna
godsmackssa 2 months ago
@Jakejw93 For me..Vettel isn't more than Hard.But the Redbull team...
Remember old times in F3...Vettel is not a magician.
godsmackssa 2 months ago
@godsmackssa That proves nothing. F1 history is filled with drivers who failed to win championships in the lesser formulae (GP2, F3000, F2, F3, whatever...) but won the WDC and even more drivers who won championships in lesser formulae only to stumble when reaching F1.
altroval 2 months ago 2
@ShiningNow in f1 2011 xD
mecastix2 2 months ago
@ShiningNow
Asian mode
youtabeer 2 months ago
@youtabeer OK, a change is in order then.
Asian Mode.
Very Easy Mode.
Easy Mode.
Medium Mode.
Hard Mode.
Very Hard Mode.
Vettel Mode.
:)
ShiningNow 2 months ago 2
@ShiningNow
lulz
youtabeer 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ShiningNow
Very Easy Mode.
Easy Mode.
Medium Mode.
Hard Mode.
Very Hard Mode.
Vettel Mode.
Alonso Mode.
FranklinMarshalSpain 2 months ago
@ShiningNow Nah ,Kobayashi is quite skillful, isn't he? :P
Caseestoner 1 month ago
@Caseestoner I'm sorry, but is that a joke, or do you seriously believe he's skillful compared to the likes of Vettel, Button, Webber, Alonso, Rosberg, Heidfeld, Petrov, Sutil, etc, etc, etc?
ShiningNow 1 month ago
@ShiningNow Heidfeld, Petrov and Sutil, YES, definitely! Shit, he outpaced Heidfeld completely as his teammate in 2010, a seasoned driver with way better knowledge about the circuits than him...he beat Petrov in a slower Sauber in 2010 to his Renault, hell, Petrov struggled to overhaul Heidfeld's point total despite having raced a further 8 races! Sutil, well, he spent much of the season being outqualified by a rookie, who, if given as much time as Sutil was, will become a race winner.
Caseestoner 1 month ago
@ShiningNow Then Ayrton Senna mode
18sacky 2 months ago
@18sacky
And above Senna Mode?
Fangio Mode.
No helmet, no fireproof suit. A bucket with four wheels they called a racing car and average speeds of 180 km/h.
Cain353 2 months ago
@Cain353 Haha. Formula 1 games should actually have difficulties like that. Good thinking 'ShiningNow'.
18sacky 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Button, Massa and Rosberg thy have old tires
Vettel have fresh soft tires
11Gresso11 2 months ago
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11Gresso11 2 months ago
xD F1 cars are looking cute in this video
Daemoon122 2 months ago
most boring race of the season
DragonMaster937 2 months ago
massa rosberg was second lap for info
Grisu94x 3 months ago
That's wrong. It's your opinion because u are not a Red Bull or Vettel Fan. Red Bull is the best Team and got the best driver. Sometimes a driver is better and sometimes not. Now Vettel is better than all other driver. Then a time will come that Di Resta is the best or a other driver. Ferrari or McLaren got good team members, but they also need to be a team and do their job as well as Red Bull does it. Sorry for my bad english.
MoNinetyFour 3 months ago 3
@MoNinetyFour to be honest, you make more sense than a lot of english F1 fans do!
Jedontrack 3 months ago 6
@Jedontrack - Absolutely brilliant post.
Anime998877 2 months ago
@MoNinetyFour You know, David coulthard as qouted a few times, it's about being in the right team/car at the right time.
1996 David was with Williams 1997 went to Mclaren which that year Williams took the championship,
Vettel is in the right team at the right time, and he is being a true world champoin.
And before you think I'ver always been a Mclaren fan, but I'm not arrogent, to deny Vettel is stills and talent
hypersaiyangoku 2 months ago
@hypersaiyangoku He actually went to Mclaren in 96. Hill won that year, and Villeneuve did the same in 97.
IntermitenciaMental 2 months ago
@IntermitenciaMental Well nevertheless, it's about beng in the right tea at the right time, and Vettel is, like Lewis joined mclaren, in the year Mclaren would have absolutely dominated, if all that legal stuff didn't happen 2007
hypersaiyangoku 2 months ago
Vettel could start in 24th and have the lead by the 3rd sector
SoloWing9936T 3 months ago
isso é real??o carro ta muito fino e muito curto
AntoniKratos100 3 months ago
HAMILTON>ALONSO>VETTEL.....
foxtrotblack 3 months ago
There's no denying Vettel has natural talent, he didn't win the championship twice just because he's got a good car. It's also a team effort - the group of mechanics around Vettel also make a difference. Just look at Webber and where he is right now. If it wasn't for Vettel and the car setup provided to him by his mechanics (based largely on Vettel's feedback), the Red Bull team would probably be 3rd!
urcritic 3 months ago 16
rb7 is the machine!!! no vettel... vettel is a normal pilot...
foxtrotblack 3 months ago
@foxtrotblack A normal pilot doesn't win in a Toro Rosso.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves Vettel is good for win ONE race with toro rosso??? LOL.....
Jean-Eric Vergne RUN TOO IN THE RB7 this week .... and your time is very very good .... only 4 dec. down that time pole of Vettel....
foxtrotblack 3 months ago
@foxtrotblack Vergne set that in the daytime, when the track is far warmer and faster than at night, when Vettel set his time.
Vettel scored on his debut, took 9 points finishes including that win in a midfield car, outscored his teammate 35-4 in 2008, is a double world champion, winning in 2010 (despite 3 car failures while leading) has 21 wins, 29 poles, and has whooped his teammate this year. You're the laughing stock if you seriously can't figure out that he might be a great driver.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves el unico aca que hace reir a los demas eres tu y los demas que creen que Vettel es mejor que Hamilton o Alonso....
El britanico y el Español con un RB7 harian polvo al Aleman. Es un hecho.
foxtrotblack 3 months ago
@foxtrotblack Vettel is maximising the potential of his car, you cannot ask for any more from a driver, and this year, only Alonso has effectively done the same with the car he was given. You can continue saying "Hamilton and Alonso are better" and using laughable hypothetical situations but that doesn't make it true, especially when Hamilton has been beaten by Button this year. Based on current form, Alonso and Vettel are the best out there. Overall, Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are pretty even.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves Vettel on pole position just runs away with a clear track in front of him. Only rare occasions he made some overtakes and for a DOUBLE world champion it isn't very impressive. In germany, when he qualified 3rd, he was shit in the race, he would have finished 5th if he didnt jumped felipe massa in the pit stop. He couldnt overtake a slow massa who is in much slower ferrari. Both had same tyres age, yet vettel remained stuck behind massa for 20 laps.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj And for a double world champion, his qualifying strike rate is incredibly good. That's why he gets himself a clear track. You have to be an excellent driver to make the most of your car, and that is what Vettel practically always does.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves Vettel got pole position in monza on his debut, just coz he was lucky to set his lap when the track was still dry. Secondly, the Adrian Newey fantastic red bull car is one of the best cars in formula 1 history. The chassis is one of best ever made. In engineering Adrian Newey is the master of puppets. He is just the best engineer in current formula 1. Thirdly, i explain the advantages vettel has over webber, so vettel didnt whopped webber by pure talent.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj Vettel is favoured over Webber because he's outperformed him every season. Webber simply isn't as good as Vettel. It happens at any team where one driver keeps beating the other. Pointing out one bad race he had this year doesn't really prove any point in a season where he has won 11 races. Face it, his pointscoring debut in 2007, regular points finishes in 08, Monza win/pole, and 2 titles follow quite an unmissable pattern. Vettel is clearly one of the most talented drivers today.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves only his title in 2011 was inmissable. In 2010, he crashed into button and webber. In abu dhabi, Alonso would have been world champion in 2010 if he wasn't stuck behind vitaly petrov. Abu dhabi without drs is difficult to overtake. They even thought to change the track layout just because there wasnt much overtaking in 2010. It proves that its a fact that it difficult to overtake in abu dhabi.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj He made poor errors at Spa and Istanbul, which meant that he threw away points, however, he also lost more points than anyone to mechanical failure last year (Korea, Australia and Bahrain).
I am not "blind in love with Vettel", I just acknowledge that Vettel is better than Webber. I accepted that Webber is heavier than Vettel, but similarly, Button is taller and heavier than Hamilton. Despite this year's standings, people usually still usually consider Hamilton to be more talented.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
Yes hamilton has a weight advantage over button. I personally believe that button is much better in car sensitivity. But hamilton seem to know a bit better of the racing line. If button works more on his racing line, he would out qualifying hamilton more often.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
Man you seem to be blind in love with vettel, i explained you the weight advantage vettel has over webber. Weight ruins everythings in a F1 car, it affect the weight distribution, the acceleration of the car, cornering speed, braking, even tyre wear. I even explained his win in Monza. Qualifying he is good, i dont say no. But as a RACER, he is nowhere near alonso or hamilton and maybe even button.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
Alonso and Hamilton are still better racers, but Vettel has shown significant improvement this year and makes up for this "shortcoming" with his Saturday afternoon strength, which you have admitted.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves My goodness :-O, you still dont get it! he is good but he also has a weight advantage. It isnt fair to webber. So you cannot really say that vettel. Moreover, formula 1 is about RACING at an incredible speed and not qualifying on a deserted track.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj F1 is about winning, regardless of whether you overtake a bunch of other cars to do it or whether you dominate from pole. SV chooses the latter.
I know SV has a weight advantage, which does help him be faster (as I acknowledged earlier). But it just won't stop fans and pundits comparing the speed and ability of drivers to their teammates/other drivers who may have a different height /weight (unfair advantage as you say).
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves :-O, F1 is about winning and not about racing??? So FIA introduced DRS?? its to create more racing.
Man your brain gave up on you!!
No matter, I give up!! I give up!!
You win!!
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj I didn't say F1 wasn't about racing. But how can you not see that the teams set out to win? Their shared goal of winning pushes them to hire the best drivers and build the best car. They all want to go as fast as possible. That creates the competition in a race. This year, one car/drive combination has outshone the rest by a large margin, which means that they have won the titles. Now what are Vettel and Red Bull doing wrong? Should they slow down so they can "race" the others?
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves No all i want to say that Vettel does not really deserve so many wins because he has an advantage over webber.
You and some people say that vettel is better than webber just by counting his points and his wins. But the true fact, he has an unfair advantage thus that is called cheating. What could be done is to add weight in the drivers cockpit so that to make all cockpits the same weight. Then you'll see, webber would be much closer to vettel or even beat vettel.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj I don't believe you can accuse shorter drivers of cheating because of something that isn't entirely in their control. While every detail can make some kind of difference to an F1 car, as @suckieduckie said, there are other factors to take into account. We can't assume that Webber would beat Vettel if SV had weight added to his car, simply because the FIA haven't introduced such a rule and we have no way of finding out.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves You admitted vettel has an advantage over webber. That's all!!! yes we have no way to find out. But that doesnt mean webber is less talented than vettel.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@ohargreaves If FIA add weight to the cockpit of the cars (suppose add 17kg in vettel and 5kg in webber car then both would weigh 80kg) you agree it will slow vettel down because he wouldnt have any advantage, so it will bring vettel much closer to webber. Vettel isnt good in traffic, then it probable that webber that could go for some wins.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
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ohargreaves 3 months ago
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@neerajmjj I acknowledged that Vettel has a slight advantage, but I'm just not at all convinced that Webber is as good or as talented as Vettel.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves Give webber the fair benefit of doubt, it could be that webber is better, who knows?
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj I just can't give Webber the benefit of the doubt for the fourth year in a row. It's up to him to overcome any disadvantages and prove himself, like Senna, who was taller than Prost, did.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves In the senna and prost, their were no kers. So there wasnt any disadvantage
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@ohargreaves Moreover you cannot compare this era to a 1990 era. Formula 1 evolves too quickly
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj F1 does evolve, you're right about that, but it's still up to Webber to convince me and other F1 fans that he's up there with the best.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves And vettel still need to convince me and other F1 fans that he can be win without a weight advantage. Overtake cars that are equally fast as him and not overtaking slower cars than him coz he has the best car and also a weight advantage.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj It would be nice for the competition at the front to be closer, but Vettel did just fine when his car wasn't the fastest in 2008 and 2009. The weight issue you cling to isn't in his hands (unless you expect him to put on weight?), and almost every champion had the best car in their title years.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves No, i dont expect him to put on weight but that also means that he'll never be able to justify completely his wins to the few F1 fans who really understand F1. You mean vettel was scoring point consistently when his car wasnt fast. Even paul diresta is scoring point regularly in an inferior force india. There's nothing amazing about vettel! His win in monza was lucky that he got on pole, and there wasnt DRS + in was damp condition so almost no overtaking attempted
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj I just can't take your nonsense seriously if your reason for Monza being lucky was that the guys behind him had no DRS to fly past. Di Resta hasn't had any top 5 finishes and only 3 top 8s, Vettel had 5 top 5s with 9 top 8s. Vettel was far more impressive in his car. You came in with a plausible enough factor in driver performance, but you've overplayed it to the extent where your posts have become a joke. I'm not wasting any more time on someone who knows as little about F1 as you.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves that's it run away from the truth!!
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@ohargreaves man i said inferior force india, u understand that. And dont forget that vettel still had his weight advantage when he was in torro rosso. I know little about F1? You seemed to be a guru because you didnt even know that vettel had a weight advantage. It proves who knows less about F1!! Did you know that even senna went on diet to lose some kgs?
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj Well, it wasn't me who thinks that a win is lucky because the highly artificial DRS hadn't been introduced. And it certainly isn't me who uses one factor to overshadow 3 years worth of results in the same car.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves Dont look at points, because points are not given linearly. You agreed with the weight stuff, in 60 lap, vettel gains 60*0.2=12s. Remember that 0.2s could be much more in different tracks. Thats a massive 12s given to him free of any talent. Add 12s in each vettel's win then see where he finishes. Because, you see, there 5 talented world champion on the grid, vettel must have an advantage for him to be so dominant.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj Although you could add 12 seconds, it doesn't take into account whether Vettel is pushing all the time or just trying to maintain a lead at some points.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves F1 drivers always push as hard as they can beat others. In 2008 vettel could aiming to overtake teams like BMW sauder or renault. Ok suppose vettel is 2nd in a race, he is pushing like hell. So it means he get the 12s advantage over a race distance.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj Drivers are usually looking to push as hard as possible, but as I said, drivers sometimes are looking to maintain a lead (Fangio and Prost especially), so you can't fully assume that every driver is at his ultimate pace at all times, especially when drivers often ease off at the end of a race. Other factors can affect the distance between drivers at the end such as safety cars bunching the field up as well.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
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@ohargreaves You didnt answer my question. i explain more clearly, suppose vettel needs to finish 1st in a race to be world champion and he is 2nd in a race, he is pushing like hell to get 1st. So it means he get the 12s advantage over a race distance!! and What do think you would happen if alonso was alongside vettel in a redbull car?
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@ohargreaves Fangio and prost were looking to maintain a position to win the championship. Whereas in 2008 vettel needed to prove himself, so he always pushes like hell to show what he is capable of.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj Which he did very well back then, but I mean now, he often eases up in the final stint, barring some times when he goes for fastest lap in the last 1 or 2 laps.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
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@ohargreaves Meaning he uses his advantage when he needs to!!! What do think you would happen if alonso was alongside vettel in a redbull car?
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@ohargreaves You are not completely answering my questions. You are talking like those F1 team boss who answers a question yet not answering the question completely.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj You said "Add 12s in each vettel's win then see where he finishes" because of the weight difference, I'm telling you why doing that isn't always going to be accurate.
This is a tedious discussion, so I'll just sum up my opinion which is: while Vettel is a bit lighter than Webber and Bourdais, forcing the lighter driver to carry extra ballast (which isn't even likely to happen in the near future), wouldn't have lead to either of them beating Vettel in the same car.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves Ok i'll grant you that maybe webber and bourdais isnt talented enough. But vettel still have his advantages, how to believe that he really deserves his wins? and How about alonso in a red bull car? why are you running away from this question? You never answered it.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
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ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves How to believe that he really deserves his wins? knowing that vettel got an advantage
neerajmjj 3 months ago
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ohargreaves 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@neerajmjj My opinion is that his lighter weight isn't a significant enough factor to affect whether he deserve his wins or not. There's nothing that can be done about his natural build.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves Actually alonso is more talented than vettel. But you know what, over a season vettel would beat alonso despite having the same red bull car. You know why?? its because in qualifying vettel would have his 0.2s advantage and over a race distance he'll get 12s. And over a season vettel would beat the much more talented and deserving alonso. How fair is that??????????
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj As I said, there's nothing that can be done about his natural build. Drivers train to be as fit as possible for their build, which minimises the advantage you keep claiming makes such a big difference.
As for who's more "talented" or "deserving", that's nothing but speculation and opinion. If Alonso was "much more talented", he'd make up the 0.2 you quote through his "talent" and beat Vettel. If Alonso beats Vettel, it would be fair. If Vettel beats Alonso, it would be just as fair.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves You have to work really hard to make up for 0.2s. In formula 1, 0.2s is massive PER lap, which makes a massive 12s over race distance. Sometimes talent is enough to make for 0.2s because a pole position can be decided by just 0.01s. You know what, even I like vettel, his courage to push the car to its limits. But i dont look at him with a narrow mind as you do.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj I'm not looking at him with a narrow mind, my opinion just differs from yours in terms of the extent of the advantage.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves Man you are running away from the truth, you know that the 0.2s isnt insignificant and the weight isnt insignificant as you read in the article. Im telling you vettel is going win more races and championship but not totally on his talent merit.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj The article you linked to doesn't even mention a difference as big as 0.2s, and was written 2 years ago, before the weight limit was increased. He may win more, he might not, but there won't be much of a difference in terms of how much of it is down to talent, compared to other drivers who win.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves the 0.2s i have heard from martin brundle(ex f1 driver) this year in 2011, i think it was in the race build up or the f1 forum. earlier you acknowledge vettels advantage, now you are changing your mind. Come on it isnt difficult to understand that extra weight slows down an car. And for a 600 kg f1 car, 10 kg isnt negligible, at least not in formula 1.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj I'm not changing my mind, and I haven't said anywhere that extra weight doesn't slow down a car. We agree on that. The minimum weight has been increased since 2009 from 605kg to 620kg, and 620kg to 640kg for this year (check the official F1 site), reducing the advantage lighter drivers get from balancing the car out with more ballast. While the advantage will always be there, it is less than what it was before. Do you agree on that? If so, we can basically leave it there.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves yes but in 2011 martin brundle said , 10 kgs makes a difference of 0.2s. Maybe earlier the advantage was even bigger when the weight limits was less than 640kg
neerajmjj 3 months ago
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ohargreaves 3 months ago
@neerajmjj If those figures are correct about 2011, while considering the fixed weight distribution for the extra ballast in 2011, then it would have been bigger than 0.2 in past years. Guess it comes down to the way some people are born and end up growing.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves I just know having a weight advantages makes you go faster and that's unfair and theirs wins are unjustified. Actually this year i have seen the weight advantages even more, the lighter filipe massa sometime out qualified the much more talented alonso
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj It is rather unjustified in Massa's case, as even being shorter and lighter he's only outqualified Alonso 3-4 times in 18 races. Massa's form in the last 2 years has been shocking.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves What do you mean by shocking? I meant that even alonso is much more talented he was out qualified by a slower massa. Yes only a few times, because massa is generally slower than alonso. Morever for me i just know that 0.2 per lap isnt negligible because like i said a pole lap can be decided in 0.01s or even less. So if you put alonso against vettel in the same redbull car, vettel is still most likely to get pole position and win the championship but alonso wont be far behind.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj By shocking, I meant that Massa hasn't performed at all well this season, failing to get a single podium for Ferrari.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves yes thats because alonso is way better than massa, that's why he got a contract with ferrari till 2016. 0.2 per lap isnt negligible because like i said a pole lap can be decided in 0.01s or even less. So if you put alonso against vettel in the same redbull car (both same talent), vettel is still most likely to get pole position and win the championship but alonso wont be far behind. That's unfair to alonso.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj Perhaps, but there's not much that can be done about it, aside from repeatedly raising the weight limit, which still wouldn't eradicate the difference.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
@ohargreaves Raising the weight limit wont eliminate the advantage of lighter drivers. Add weight in the drivers cockpit such that all drivers weighs lets say 80kg. That could be a solution. Do you how i convey this proposal to the FIA?
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@ohargreaves Sometimes talent is enough to make for 0.2s because a pole position can be decided by just 0.01s.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@ohargreaves What happened? No answer??
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@ohargreaves I slightly favour hamilton, i can tell u that honesty. But i acknowledge that Alonso is probably the most complete driver. The way he is outperforming his slow ferrari is amazing. What do think you would happen if alonso was alongside vettel in a redbull car? You agree if i say alonso is maybe as talented as vettel?
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj Yes, I agree that Alonso is as talented as Vettel, and I think still the best all rounder/most complete driver on the grid. He's been excellent in the Ferrari this year, being consistent and fast.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
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@ohargreaves What do think you would happen if alonso was alongside vettel in a redbull car?
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@ohargreaves You acknowledged vettel's weight advantages, yet you are ignoring it. It shows how cheap and narrow minded your thoughts are. Im investigating the damn thing, not like ignoring fact like you are.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@neerajmjj I didn't ignore your weight stuff. I just have the widely held belief that Vettel is simply better than Webber (and Bourdais), based on the closest comparison we will ever get between 2 drivers- when they are in the same car. If a few kilos makes the entire difference between 11 wins and 0 wins, or 35 points and 4 points, you'd find it very hard to compare any F1 driver to another. Show me hard evidence that Webber or Bourdais were better than Vettel, then I'll take you seriously.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
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@ohargreaves My goodness :-O, you still dont get it! he is good but he also has a weight advantage. It isnt fair to webber. So you cannot really say that vettel is better. Moreover, formula 1 is about RACING at an incredible speed and not qualifying on a deserted track.
neerajmjj 3 months ago
@Sjm1994london
Having the faster car means its harder to drive? That's bollocks, having a
faster usually means you have lighter components and better aerodynamics so even the handling will be easier,
If your talking in the terms of racing a prius compared to an f1 car on the same track then yeah of course it's easier to drive the prius because it's slow etc.
Kcon83 3 months ago
@Kcon83 it really depends on how much effort the team put into the car. F1 cars are still hard to drive regardless of how quick they are, a couple of years ago DC said that it was much harder to drive the faster cars. Just bugs me when people think Vettel has an easy job when factually speaking its never easy even with a dominant car!
SJM1994London 3 months ago
@Kcon83 I mean that Vettel is slow and worst driver ever!!! He wins only becouse of his car is so fast, same thing than Webber, but Webber's car is not so fast, Webber is still as driver faster than fat vettel
TheFin30 3 months ago
@TheFin30 uh men, youre just a vettel hater !
Westbam5 3 months ago
@Westbam5 I am ferrari and mclaren fan, Red Bull sucks!!!!!
TheFin30 3 months ago
@TheFin30 yes, vettel-hater !
Westbam5 3 months ago
@Westbam5 aha
TheFin30 3 months ago
Ohargreaves is quite obviously a Vettel fanboi.
Nohjjohnthegreat 3 months ago
@Nohjjohnthegreat I'm actually a Ferrari fan, but I just appreciate Vettel's skills.
ohargreaves 3 months ago
if vettel drives ferrari or mclaren, he is gonna loses badly
TheFin30 3 months ago
@TheFin30 "If" isn't proof.
ohargreaves 3 months ago