Adjournment Debate - 21st December, 2011 - Part 2

[KiwiTomCrawford]

I want to buy shares in national assets, why should it be just the govt that has power over our assets, why not let the people have some ownership and control, give the people's assets to the people, not the people that represent the people, I currently have 13k saved with which i intend to invest in the nation!

[andrewkiwi100]

@KiwiTomCrawford You, and the rest of New Zealand, already own these assets!

[KiwiTomCrawford]

@andrewkiwi100 how do i own these assets? i have missed out on this years election by 1 year of age so i have to wait another 3 years to have a chance to have a say, and dont drop that hippie shit collective ownership, i want some real ownership that i personally can benifit from, and not this whole, its paying for your health care and education ect ect, it is the govt that owns these assets, not the people, the govt only represents the people, they are not the people as a whole.

[andrewkiwi100]

@KiwiTomCrawford It doesn't make any financial sense to sell assets that are making money. Once all the quick-hit cash from the sales is used up, the government will have less revenue than before the sales. Then they'll turn to the typical right-wing slash-and-burn approach, causing beneficiary bashing and more asset sales, and possibly even a GST hike. Asset sales are only good for the top end, who can actually afford it.

[KiwiTomCrawford]

@andrewkiwi100 think of it as you have a house that you are renting out to pay off the mortage on the house, the rent is barely above the repayments and overall you are not making much money, so you sell the house and pay off the mortage quickly, so that in the long term it does not cost you so much in the cost of the interest, you are better off long term, and short term

[andrewkiwi100]

@KiwiTomCrawford These assets are high-performing. The dividends aren't "barely above the repayments". You wouldn't sell your house to pay the mortgage. A business wouldn't sell its best-performing asset to repay a loan.

[KiwiTomCrawford]

@andrewkiwi100 new zealands best performing asset is the new zealand tax payer in mid to high incomes, how do you better them, allow them to invest in new zealand owned assets, which will better the assets because of the extra money, and this increase tax revinue from the tax payers that have earned money from investing in the assets

[andrewkiwi100]

@KiwiTomCrawford Firstly, when people buy into the SOEs their investment does not become additional capital in the businesses, it simply purchases part of the government's share, so the money goes into the government's coffers. Secondly, the increase in tax revenue would be marginal, since we don't tax capital gains, and there would be a net loss in revenue because the government loses 49% of the dividends.

[KiwiTomCrawford]

@andrewkiwi100 well the dividends already go into the govt coffers, if you sell off the 49% you still have complete control over it and the initial money from selling the shares which can be worth up to 20 years worth of dividends, so let me ask you, clear the debt now, let the private trading market build up the worth of the shares, or wait up to 20 years in which time you will incur even more debt and have to pay even more interest, just let me invest in what is suposedly mine!

[andrewkiwi100]

@KiwiTomCrawford OK, so what do we do in 20 years' time? John Key doesn't care; it won't be his problem then! You own 1/4,432,869 of each asset - just as much as any other citizen, rich or poor. Why should the top end have more power over ordinary Kiwis?

[KiwiTomCrawford]

@andrewkiwi100 Well i can tell you in 20 years time we wont still be paying off debt because we decided to not sell off 49% of the state assets, and what if i want a bigger share, am i not entitled to that? if i have the money why would the govt not want to have it?

[andrewkiwi100]

@KiwiTomCrawford Because the other 4.4 million Kiwis want to keep their share. Only the wealthy are set to gain from state asset sales.

[KiwiTomCrawford]

@andrewkiwi100 I am not wealthy i am simply hard working and am very careful to not to squander my money, i do not got out often, perhaps even as little as 6 times a year, i have not travelled overnight in more than 3 years and have only been overseas once 5 years ago, i do not buy a packet of chips at the supermarket just because i want a treat, i work hard, the longer you work the more money you make and the less time you have to spend it.

[KiwiTomCrawford]

@andrewkiwi100 my parents raised me to beleive that clearing debt is of paramount importance, they did not get a loan if the car needed replacing they simply did without until they could save up the money, they always taught me what do you do when you have no money? you do without! It is not my fault that this country is in debt, however i would very much like to see that debt payed off as soon as possible, and if the wealthy benifit from the country having no debt, then so be it.

[andrewkiwi100]

@KiwiTomCrawford There are ways to pay off state debt besides selling assets, eg taxing capital. At the moment property developers don't pay any income tax because of this silly loophole. Besides, public debt isn't NZ's problem; it's private debt. I recommend you watch or read Winston Peters' Address in Reply speech (watch?v=KgTWweVoE7U). He makes a good point about John Key's reasons for asset sales.

[KiwiTomCrawford]

@andrewkiwi100 private debt is explained in the name, it is private and it is up to the induvidual who was silly enough to get into debt to pay off, the point of public debt is that the public have to pay for it whether they wanted to get into debt or not, tax is stealing, why should someones prosperity be forced to be shared around, and its not even fair taxing in new zealand, i would be less upset if we had a flat tax rate, look at this, google classroom socialism radio live.

[andrewkiwi100]

@KiwiTomCrawford We live in a society together. People prosper of each other. We can't have an only-me focus. The high level of private debt is part of the reason why NZ recently had two credit downgrades. You say tax is stealing? You're kidding, right? Tax pays for roads, social services, public grounds, the list is endless. In a me-driven economy the heartless "prosperous" people win, and most, if not all, people are worse off. Flat tax is absolutely cruel to those on the bottom end.

[KiwiTomCrawford]

@andrewkiwi100 is it not just that we should live in a fair society, if there is a flat tax rate the rich will still be paying more than the poor, i have no private debt nor do my parents, as i say when you have no money, you do without, this society has made that debt is the social norm, this needs to change, we need to be a fair society where if there is tax each person pays at the same rate, why should the rich who already pay more amount have to pay a higher proportion?

[andrewkiwi100]

@KiwiTomCrawford And then eventually the assets will end up in foreign control, power prices will go up, and most New Zealanders will be worse off while Key and his rich mates will be laughing it up in Hawaii.

As for your wish to invest, how about providing capital for local businesses, or in loan provider schemes?

[KiwiTomCrawford]

@andrewkiwi100 i do not wish to loan money because the only return that can come from loaning is through usery and there is less of a chance of return and if there would be with the state owned assets, i doubt that they will end up in foreign control, infact there is more likely to be a buy back, imagine that a person has 2 cars but is in debt, he sells one of the cars because he does not need it, he pays off the debt quickly so that he can soon buy back that car!