Hey, thanks for your very eloquent comments. I much appreciate your approach.
I think my response would be that Most High does/did not ever expect perfection from man. He expected people to be pliable and teachable. I think the scriptures teach that if a man seeks after righteousness through walking in obedience, then he is accepted by Yah...
... of course, this then begs the question - why did Messiah had to die? As I've said many times, this is for me a weighty issue and one I'm still waiting for a clear answer on.
People will respond by rebuking me for not accepting what they see as the obvious (i.e. substitionary atonement) but that's just the way I see things. I really don't think the substitutionary atonement concept really captures the true significance of his death.
hey man, that wasn't a weak answer at all, you've got to struggle through this with God, I respect that you're thinking htis through. I am interested as to why you don't think substitutionary atonement captures the true significance of the Messiah's death. As I see it, it is the perfect, and beautiful fulfillment of the Torah. One death for all, the righteous for the unrighteous. But, to be fair, I can see how not believing that Jesus was God incarnate would get in the way of that.
That's what I understand Paul to be saying. I've never murdered anyone, but I have hated in my heart. I've never committed adultery, but I've lusted in my heart (Matthew 5:17-30). That is why the Israelites sacrificed on the day of Atonement, and it is why God has given a superior sacrifice in Jesus, God incarnate (which i know you don't believe from reading your page, but that's Paul's argument)
I think Paul's point is that our efforts in trying to obtain righteousness through the Torah aren't enough. We can be decent people from a human perspective by trying to follow the Torah, but when compared to the Holy God who knows our thoughts, intentions, and desires, we "fall short of the Glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Even David - a man after God's own heart, and Abraham - called God's friend, sinned. They weren't perfect, and as such they needed God's grace. (cont)
Yes we need God's grace but that not mean that we can do what we want to do. We can not say the Law is not valid anymore and we are saved by grace and that is all. Because we are saved by grace we need to seeks after righteousness walking in obedience and if we fall like David, God's grace waiting us to repent and come back to Yah. That is the fight but like child who learn to walk, when he learn to walk he fall and he get up and try again. God not see are falls but ambitions we have for walking
but that all of mankind has been tainted by sin (as has all of God's creation). He used those references to show the vast spectrum of our sinfulness. I consider myself to be one "who seeks after God," but only because God has first sought me. And in my seeking of God, i continually fail, turning away to seek my own selfish desires. I would never have sought God without his calling me to, and even in my seeking, i don't seek whole-heartedly. (continued)
I just want to say that I really appreciate your commitment to examining the scriptures and not just accepting without thinking. The New Testament calls people like you noble (Acts 17:11)
My understanding of the passage you examined in Romans 3, was that Paul was using those Old Testament references (or references to the prophets and wisdom writings if you prefer those terms) was not to prove that every person on earth is a vile, murderous, scum-bag, with no decency at all (continued)
John 6:62-63 "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh accomplishes nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
This takes care of your last 2 teaching series. Paul was living this Spirit filled life!
6:66 As a result, many of his disciples turned back and no longer associated with him.
It looks like you are heading in the same direction TR.
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity; There is none who does good. 2 God looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. 3 Every one of them has turned aside; They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. (Psalm 53:1-3)
He who is infinitely Good, died an Eternal death once and for all to save all of us. For the Law made us aware of our sin, but no legal system in the world could get us an inch closer to doing good. That power is not in itself in the rules. We become aware, and we try to be perfect as regards the law, but we cannot. The Law itself will not make us perfect, it only makes us aware of our sin.
No, he is stressing the fact that Absolute Goodness and righteousness is found only in God, and only He has that Glory (which by the way the Lord Jesus also has). None of us are 100% Good. But we can also become better. Besides St. Paul has urged the churches to be of good conduct and so on. If any human was perfect, then there would be no need for the Lord Jesus' Salvation. For it would be possible for us to gain perfection. But we cannot because we are not Divine.
Shalom ahki. I'm doing well thanks, just busy. I haven't checked that article out yet. I've had a few responses to these videos and I'm taking time to go through each one. I'll definitely let you known when I've looked at the article.
... if he's doing a) then the discussion is over, and Paul's writings were clearly in error here. But even if he's doing b) you have to ask, who gave him the right to take David and YeshaYah's words and apply meannings to them that were not intended by the prophets?
It's like those Replacement Theology-types who everytime they read "Israel" in prophecies, they the Tanakh, they interpret it as meaning some Gentile "Church" entity...
..and interestingly, it's also the kind of thing that can be found in the Talmud and other rabbinic texts. You can find places where the rabbis take a portion of a text, isolate it from the contaxt, and then make it mean something different to what it would mean if read in context. And this is what Paul did in Romans 3.
Paul is just saying that there is no one that is sinless. That is the SPIRIT of what he is saying. You CANNOT believe that Paul believed that nobody tried to live holy at all. COME ON DUDE. When you read from the psalms or the prophets you say that righteousness is following the law. What does Paul mean when he tells us to walk in righteousness and be holy? If you keep your same definition and be FAIR, you cant say Paul is against Torah. You are missing his point completely.
But here's the thing, Paul takes strung these passages together to teach that no-one is righteous. Right? So, as far as I can tell, we have two options:
Paul was either a) contradicting the original writings which confirm that people WERE righteous..
or b) he is applying a meaning to "righteous" which was not meant by the writers.
In EITHER case, there are massive problems. In EITHER case, his doctrine is not proven by the scriptures he quotes because the texts do not teach it...
You are completely missing the spirit of Paul's writing. In Gal. he is warning the people against legalistic Judaist like yourself. Salvation comes through faith alone. Paul is a new (better) covenant teacher, for there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The Judaist were making it difficult to be saved, and therefore missed the intention of the sacrificial death of Jesus. The Holy Spirit imputes the desire to obey the commandments and do good works. In that order!
When is this "generation of the righteous"? Could it not be a reference to the generation that will have Messiah? Afterall, it is only in His covering that we have righteousness before Yah.
Also, what is meant by "righteous"? My understanding is it is "right action". If it means having no guilt of trangressing The Law, then certainly Yeshua is the only one who can claim such a thing, and certainly Paul's words ring true, as ALL have transgressed.
It's a good question - what does "righteous" mean. People usually (based on Romans 3) think that righteous means sinless. This is what trips people up when thinking about righteousness. ZachariYah and Elisheba were called righteous and walking in the commandments blameless (luke 1:5-6). This doesn't mean they never ever transgressed any commandment. A righteous one is one who seeks after Yah, to keep His commandments. When such a one sins, they repent and set their heart to not sin again.
The Psalmist David was the cold-blooded killer of Uriah,to avoid the disgrace of adultery,He called himself rightious,because God said that his sins were forgiven,He was a proto-Christian,but very much so a sinner!!Solomon sinned aswell idolatry of his wives,There is none rightious ,NO NOT ONE,and then Jesus came!
(continued from below)
as Peter says in 1 Peter 3:18 "Christ died for sins once for all the righteous for the unrighteous."
anyway, that was really long. But i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that.
Cheers!
captaincanuck65 3 years ago
Hey, thanks for your very eloquent comments. I much appreciate your approach.
I think my response would be that Most High does/did not ever expect perfection from man. He expected people to be pliable and teachable. I think the scriptures teach that if a man seeks after righteousness through walking in obedience, then he is accepted by Yah...
Torahrevival 3 years ago
... of course, this then begs the question - why did Messiah had to die? As I've said many times, this is for me a weighty issue and one I'm still waiting for a clear answer on.
People will respond by rebuking me for not accepting what they see as the obvious (i.e. substitionary atonement) but that's just the way I see things. I really don't think the substitutionary atonement concept really captures the true significance of his death.
Hope that's not too weak an answer.
Torahrevival 3 years ago
hey man, that wasn't a weak answer at all, you've got to struggle through this with God, I respect that you're thinking htis through. I am interested as to why you don't think substitutionary atonement captures the true significance of the Messiah's death. As I see it, it is the perfect, and beautiful fulfillment of the Torah. One death for all, the righteous for the unrighteous. But, to be fair, I can see how not believing that Jesus was God incarnate would get in the way of that.
captaincanuck65 3 years ago
(continued from below)
That's what I understand Paul to be saying. I've never murdered anyone, but I have hated in my heart. I've never committed adultery, but I've lusted in my heart (Matthew 5:17-30). That is why the Israelites sacrificed on the day of Atonement, and it is why God has given a superior sacrifice in Jesus, God incarnate (which i know you don't believe from reading your page, but that's Paul's argument)
(continued)
captaincanuck65 3 years ago
(continued from below)
I think Paul's point is that our efforts in trying to obtain righteousness through the Torah aren't enough. We can be decent people from a human perspective by trying to follow the Torah, but when compared to the Holy God who knows our thoughts, intentions, and desires, we "fall short of the Glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Even David - a man after God's own heart, and Abraham - called God's friend, sinned. They weren't perfect, and as such they needed God's grace. (cont)
captaincanuck65 3 years ago
Yes we need God's grace but that not mean that we can do what we want to do. We can not say the Law is not valid anymore and we are saved by grace and that is all. Because we are saved by grace we need to seeks after righteousness walking in obedience and if we fall like David, God's grace waiting us to repent and come back to Yah. That is the fight but like child who learn to walk, when he learn to walk he fall and he get up and try again. God not see are falls but ambitions we have for walking
bojann79 3 years ago
(continued from below)
but that all of mankind has been tainted by sin (as has all of God's creation). He used those references to show the vast spectrum of our sinfulness. I consider myself to be one "who seeks after God," but only because God has first sought me. And in my seeking of God, i continually fail, turning away to seek my own selfish desires. I would never have sought God without his calling me to, and even in my seeking, i don't seek whole-heartedly. (continued)
captaincanuck65 3 years ago
hey,
I just want to say that I really appreciate your commitment to examining the scriptures and not just accepting without thinking. The New Testament calls people like you noble (Acts 17:11)
My understanding of the passage you examined in Romans 3, was that Paul was using those Old Testament references (or references to the prophets and wisdom writings if you prefer those terms) was not to prove that every person on earth is a vile, murderous, scum-bag, with no decency at all (continued)
captaincanuck65 3 years ago
John 6:62-63 "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh accomplishes nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
This takes care of your last 2 teaching series. Paul was living this Spirit filled life!
6:66 As a result, many of his disciples turned back and no longer associated with him.
It looks like you are heading in the same direction TR.
Ramohog 3 years ago
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity; There is none who does good. 2 God looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. 3 Every one of them has turned aside; They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. (Psalm 53:1-3)
marephrem 3 years ago
Christ Himself, the Begotten Son of God, is the Only One Who is Perfect with His Father, and the Spirit of God.
marephrem 3 years ago
He who is infinitely Good, died an Eternal death once and for all to save all of us. For the Law made us aware of our sin, but no legal system in the world could get us an inch closer to doing good. That power is not in itself in the rules. We become aware, and we try to be perfect as regards the law, but we cannot. The Law itself will not make us perfect, it only makes us aware of our sin.
marephrem 3 years ago
No, he is stressing the fact that Absolute Goodness and righteousness is found only in God, and only He has that Glory (which by the way the Lord Jesus also has). None of us are 100% Good. But we can also become better. Besides St. Paul has urged the churches to be of good conduct and so on. If any human was perfect, then there would be no need for the Lord Jesus' Salvation. For it would be possible for us to gain perfection. But we cannot because we are not Divine.
marephrem 3 years ago
Shalom TR, how are you ahki?
Do you investigate the link ccgDOTorg/english/s/p104DOThtml
abaout Paul.
I am Waiting for your answer
bojann79 3 years ago
Shalom ahki. I'm doing well thanks, just busy. I haven't checked that article out yet. I've had a few responses to these videos and I'm taking time to go through each one. I'll definitely let you known when I've looked at the article.
Peace
Torahrevival 3 years ago
Enoch,Noah;Job;Abraham where righteous.They did not have the Savation of Yahushua but where ok with God.Also Elia.
2praise 3 years ago
... if he's doing a) then the discussion is over, and Paul's writings were clearly in error here. But even if he's doing b) you have to ask, who gave him the right to take David and YeshaYah's words and apply meannings to them that were not intended by the prophets?
It's like those Replacement Theology-types who everytime they read "Israel" in prophecies, they the Tanakh, they interpret it as meaning some Gentile "Church" entity...
Torahrevival 3 years ago
..and interestingly, it's also the kind of thing that can be found in the Talmud and other rabbinic texts. You can find places where the rabbis take a portion of a text, isolate it from the contaxt, and then make it mean something different to what it would mean if read in context. And this is what Paul did in Romans 3.
Torahrevival 3 years ago
Paul is just saying that there is no one that is sinless. That is the SPIRIT of what he is saying. You CANNOT believe that Paul believed that nobody tried to live holy at all. COME ON DUDE. When you read from the psalms or the prophets you say that righteousness is following the law. What does Paul mean when he tells us to walk in righteousness and be holy? If you keep your same definition and be FAIR, you cant say Paul is against Torah. You are missing his point completely.
king4him 3 years ago
But here's the thing, Paul takes strung these passages together to teach that no-one is righteous. Right? So, as far as I can tell, we have two options:
Paul was either a) contradicting the original writings which confirm that people WERE righteous..
or b) he is applying a meaning to "righteous" which was not meant by the writers.
In EITHER case, there are massive problems. In EITHER case, his doctrine is not proven by the scriptures he quotes because the texts do not teach it...
Torahrevival 3 years ago
You are completely missing the spirit of Paul's writing. In Gal. he is warning the people against legalistic Judaist like yourself. Salvation comes through faith alone. Paul is a new (better) covenant teacher, for there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The Judaist were making it difficult to be saved, and therefore missed the intention of the sacrificial death of Jesus. The Holy Spirit imputes the desire to obey the commandments and do good works. In that order!
Ramohog 3 years ago
Shalom, what bible program/utility are you using?
ministerabdallah 3 years ago
E-sword. It's a free download.
Torahrevival 3 years ago
About Psa. 14:5-
When is this "generation of the righteous"? Could it not be a reference to the generation that will have Messiah? Afterall, it is only in His covering that we have righteousness before Yah.
Also, what is meant by "righteous"? My understanding is it is "right action". If it means having no guilt of trangressing The Law, then certainly Yeshua is the only one who can claim such a thing, and certainly Paul's words ring true, as ALL have transgressed.
YHWHisElohim 3 years ago
It's a good question - what does "righteous" mean. People usually (based on Romans 3) think that righteous means sinless. This is what trips people up when thinking about righteousness. ZachariYah and Elisheba were called righteous and walking in the commandments blameless (luke 1:5-6). This doesn't mean they never ever transgressed any commandment. A righteous one is one who seeks after Yah, to keep His commandments. When such a one sins, they repent and set their heart to not sin again.
Torahrevival 3 years ago
The Psalmist David was the cold-blooded killer of Uriah,to avoid the disgrace of adultery,He called himself rightious,because God said that his sins were forgiven,He was a proto-Christian,but very much so a sinner!!Solomon sinned aswell idolatry of his wives,There is none rightious ,NO NOT ONE,and then Jesus came!
RoelGeurtsen 3 years ago
I would have to say I agree with you on that point.
YHWHisElohim 3 years ago