Rob Bell should move to Europe where his teachings won't be recognized for the heresy they are. Can his speaking be any more convoluted? and confusing?
In Love Wins, Bell redefines the meaning of Heaven and Hell. By doing so, he makes Jesus responsible for the suffering and abuse that some children receive. You can see how he does this at Hells Bell Dot Net...specifically under the section titled "Hell - New & Improved".
Rob Bell you twist the Word of God to your fiancial advantage Woe to you! The primary Message , the Gist of the Bible is that God wants you with Him in Heaven eternally through his Beloved Son and that we don't need to do anything except accept Jesus and confess Him as Lord God you blasphemous deciever Woe to you! It is a free gift you don't have to do anything even if you are still a sinner Yeshua died for your sins he didn't say ah ok my blood will cover your sins till you're 38 ?
Um, how do I say....? VAGUE, he totally avoids anything with proper substance - SO SORRY, no I take that back I don't apologize, CHRIST is NOT meant to be watered down!
It is healthy to be skeptical of those who want to sell you absolute truths, even your pastor. When you are unsaved it is healthy to be skeptical of the message of Jesus. Questioning God is a prerequisite for faith.
Rob Bell is a healthy skeptic. He asks a lot of questions and gives few absolute answers. Which is exactly the same religious culture that existed in Jesus' time.
Only those without answers should be afraid of questions. God isn't scared of Rob's questions.
I really like a lot of Rob's method and approach though. Like "What's your demographic or target?" Answer: people
"Some things are true period."
I just am worried about how firmly he holds to certain core truths... I get the trampoline springs analogy and it's good but it all depends on which beliefs are springs and does Rob think EVERY spring can be exchanged??? Is the Trinity a spring that can be replaced? Hell? Heaven? Questioning is fine. Undermining core biblical truths is not.
It is healthy to be skeptical of those who want to sell you absolute truths, even your pastor. When you are unsaved it is healthy to be skeptical of the message of Jesus. Questioning God is a prerequisite for faith.
Rob Bell is a healthy skeptic. He asks a lot of questions and gives few absolute answers. Which is exactly the same religious culture that existed in Jesus' time.
Only those without answers should be afraid of questions. God isn't scared of Rob's questions.
Jesus came with nonviolence the first time. In Revelation Jesus comes with a sword. Jesus was perfectly loving and merciful. But he knew when to be strong and harsh. Jesus talks about both Heaven AND Hell. The first baptism is by water the last will be by fire, etc.
I think Rob emphasizes too much the more pleasant looking sides of Christianity at the expense of showing people how ugly we are in our sin and how Holy and Just God is.
God's wrath is mentioned more than his love in the Bible
It's nice that Rob Bell emphasizes God's love, forgiveness, and grace. It's great for PREACHING to nonbelievers but in TEACHING self-avowed Christians I think Rob really needs to emphasize how seriously MESSED UP AND SINFUL people, both Christians and non, are.
I don't like JUST hearing about how we all need to love and forgive. Because duh that's true. You don't need to be a Christian to know that. But God and Jesus GOT ANGRY, rebuked and condemned people's sin, etc.
It's amazing how much biblical ignorance is on this post, and then the one guy who actually quotes scripture gets a "thumbs down". Look at all the totally stupid things these people are saying
I agree with you brentduanefoster. I totally agree. In my recent comment whrn I mention the word rich, I am not referring to the wealthy but to the church. It is the Church that killed Jesus Christ, and I often think about this. It forces me to reflect on that reality. This is ridiculous. This whole interview is ridiculous...
What do u call the synagogue? What do you call that? It might be another priesthood. YES! I must admit that! But wht do we call it? The Jewish golf club at that time? Ignorant comments. Same people that make others turn away from Christ!
The synagogue was just that, the synagogue. Jesus said "on this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH..." The people that turn away from Christ do so by their own volition because by nature they are at war with God and His enemies by nature.
You know it's one of those silly little things that, that dumb book talks about.
Another translation says, "Upon this revelation (that Jesus was the Christ), I will build my Church. The greek word for "Church" means Called out ones.
I would disagree that we are at war with God, but rather at war with religion.
What turns people off from God are the religion that atttempt to represent him, and their mentality that "we know God, and if you don't get with us, he's gonna destroy you."
Also, use scripture to legitimize their beliefs. That's was the Pharisses issue.
I guess we can make the bible say whatever we want it to say and we can just file it under the category of "seeing it in a different light"? Tht's pretty much the post modern mind set. That phrase goes back to Genesis 3, "did God really say...?"
The apostle Paul admonished the Bereans for searching the scriptures to see if what he taught was true, but by today's criteria, that is considered being a "pharisee". Hmmm.
1Jn 4:1 Says that we should try the spirits whether they are of God. I can see the spirit that is in you and that just proves what our brother Brentduanefoster is saying from the beginning of this arguement! Remember it is by the spirit not only by the written word.
Matthew 10: 10-20 Says to us that what makes the difference in what you are just saying about the Bereans is that we must not just relay on the Word alone but depend on the spirit as well. It is a delicate balance. Because one thing is to say the truth with compassion and another to say the truth without the love of Christ. Blessings Bother gtrjunky...
The spirit of God will always continue to shift and shape and create. And people like yourself will stay frozen behind missing out on what God is trying to teach us because of your old and static traditions. Wake Up, It doesn't end at the Bible the gospel is still going, it continues with us. Jesus broke the old rules because he understood more and more with a new generation. But he said "You shall do greater things than I have" lets keep it going but stop drying it up
This has been the mindset throughout history. Anyone who believes they have it right because it is what has been preached for 2000 years is commiting idolatry. There is nothing apart from subjective expereince and no reason to believe that any doctrine is more worthy than another. All knowledge comes through expereince and is socially situated. The bible is ALWAYS interpreted through mans eyes and just because an interpretation has been accepted for centuries makes it no more worthy.
Please, you speak as if you were the only one that read the Bible. We must also use common sense... Yes you are right on what you mention: Jesus said "on this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH..." Because there were other churches friend.But We can spend 2 or 3 months fighting and arguing about this. But see the fruits of your heart.
dude! gtrjunky! how's the family? I can't believe you're still at this stuff after all these months. It's invigorating, huh? Anyhoo, just thought I'd say hi. let me know if you want to catch up or something. You never recommended books or anything like I asked before. I guess we each just have our own cliques now. Well, let me tell you, I've decided to become a Calvinist recently. Not bad. Been listening to a lot of Mark Driscoll. What do you think of him? Hope your fall is going well. Love you.
Don't be hypocritical. Of course we are not talking about the body of Christ. We are talking about the church at that time. The high priests. etc, etc etc. Which can considered a prophetic sign. It will happen. Don't comeup with that bolognie of "Where is the verse for that!" You see there we go again with the same thing!!!!!
"We have minimized the Gospel message to just repenting of sin."
That is definitely the an ignorant thing to say. It seems that you don't know what the biblical gospel is. You are confusing the fruit of the gospel with the gospel itself.
You mean the thought process that says, "Unless you become a Christian, God has no use for you, and your nothing but a worthless creation doomed for eternal damnnation."
Is that the "Biblical" Gospel you're talking about? If so, then you sir, have made my very point about how many Christians have become nothing but Modern-Day Pharisees. They knew everything about the law and all of the tradtions, but knew nothing about mercy...
Christianity, in many cases have taken on that mentality, and it is NO WONDER why people are turned off from knowing God.
Am I saying we just ignore sin? Not at all.
But the Gospel IS much more than just dealing with sin. When the Church finally gets that, there will be great progress and forward motion in the Body of Christ.
The gospel (good news) isn't good news unless one first knows the bad news.
1 Cor. 15:1-5 is Paul's recap to the Corinthian church of what the gospel is. Again, you are confusing the fruits of salvation with the gospel itself. The true church already understands this and they've been doing it for the last 2000 years. It's not as though the church needs someone like Bell to "really get it". His "gospel" is nothin more than a social "gospel".
"The gospel (good news) isn't good news unless one first knows the bad news."
Oh, so if one does not hear that God has a pit of eternal punishment for those who are not members of the Christian faith (aka "not saved"), it will compel them to become believers and THEN they can operate in all that stuff I mentioned, right?
Well, what about that passage in Matthew 7:11, where Jesus said, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children..."?
Also, it's amazing how those who call themselves Christians talk about Jesus and how he addressed sin, but forget that most of his followers were those that religion rejected. That is because, he wasn't beating them about their sin, like some of us Christians do, but rather he was compassion towards them, and them understand their true identity, which helped them leave their life of sin.
I'm reminded of when Jesus encounter Matthew the tax collector in Matthew 9...
...when after he encountered Matthew the Tax Collector, he dined at his house, and who had something arrogant and self-righteous to say about it?
Yep, you guessed it, The Pharisees.
But, I like Jesus' response to this matter in verses 12 and 13, "...Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: I desire mercy and not sacrifice. For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."
In other words, Jesus was being a liitle sarcastic. He was saying "Well, you guys don't need me, you've 'got it all together', so I'm going after those whom you've turned your nose up at.".
The point her is about what the Gospel IS and what it ISN'T. It isn't about feeding the poor and making the world into a better place. It's about unrighteous people being made righteous before God through Jesus Christ. It's about fleeing from God's wrath to come and having eternal life.
Once again, you are proving my point how we have minimalized the Gospel to being just about sin, and how religion says that God is angry and wants to kill us if we don't subscribe to this certain belief system.
What about about all the other stuff that Jesus talked about? You know, "Loving your neighbor as yourself." "Bless those that persecute you." "You are the salt of the earth...the light of the world"? Is that not part of the Gospel, or is that just something he just felt like saying?
Why wasn't Jesus "beating them" about their sin? Because the Law had done that for 2000 years. These Hebrew people were well aware of their sinful condition which is why they went to Temple for the sacrifice every year.
The law still has a purpose today. It is to show a man his unrighteousness and drive him to the cross. That's what it has always been for. When Jesus said "Love God and neighbor", He was bringing the law to it's maximum degree to crush all self righteousness.
That's a strawman argument. Those who need a physician are the one's who know the bad news. In other words they are contrite about their sinful condition.
Also, according to the scriptures, the reason people are turned off from God is because they love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil,(John 3:19) and because they are enemies of God (Col.1:21)(Rom.5:10) and they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom.18-32)
"...they love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil."
Jesus was referring to the religious leaders (you know, the ones who wanted to kill him), they loved their religion, their rules and regulations, etc, and Jesus called that "darkness". Because it kept people from understanding the true character of God.
The reason Jesus despised the pharisees is because they were relying on their own works to be right before God. Just because people are studious in the word and raise their voice against false teachers, does not make them a "pharisee". Jesus also chided the scribes and the herodians as well. The herodians could be considered the old liberals of that time...much like Rob Bell.
Right, and it because of that, it kept others away from believing.
So Jesus had to come and Re-Present God in a way that outsiders could understand and recieve.
I think your issue with Rob Bell is that his methods don't line up with your traditions, and if they don't line up with tradition, they're automatically deemed a "false prophet".
No, it's about his false teachings. It's a tragic thing that the mention of Judgment and Hell have become politically incorrect, due to the self righteousness of people like Bell and his other cohorts. They don't talk about the fact that we're ALL wicked and seperated from God because of our sin. Instead, they teach that we're "broken". As if we're helpless victims of circumstance instead of guilty criminals.
Sin comes into play when one does not know his/her true identity when it comes to God.
It is human nature to seek after fulfillment in one way or another. They way God sees it, it is sin to seek after fulfillment outside of me. But, because they don't know me, I will reveal myself through Christ, and show them or remind them of who they are.
Hell, contrary to traditional thought, is a constant pursuit of, but lack of attainment of that fulfillment. A unfillable void, if you will.
Religion takes that concept, and makes it apply to the afterlife, and the ungodly fear it produces, compels people to subscribe to that particular belief system, and it is a continual reproduction of fear.
That why Jesus said, and I'm paraphrasing, "You go all over the world to find one convert, and when you do, you make him twice a citizen of Hell as you are". In other words, you put that convert in deeper bondage than you already are.
You did a lot of scripture twisting here. When Jesus talked to the Pharisees about "making converts", He was talking about Law keeping. The pharisees made them that way because they were puting them under the yoke of the law. It nothing to with teaching about Hell or fear.
Well, what you consider "twisting" scripture, I consider having an understanding that goes beyond the literal. Don't you see how they work together? The Pharisees try to keep their converts under the yoke of the law, and they use fear and Hell to do it.
Yes he did, but who was it mainly directed towards? The Pharisees, his biggest opponents!!!
Not the woman caught in the act of adultery, or the demon-possessed boy, or the tax collectors and "sinners" he dined with. Religion uses Hell and fear, and will, as you say twist scripture to do it.
Hell is directed toward anyone who is an unbeliever, and no I haven't "experienced Hell in this life". There are things to keep in mind when it comes to biblical interpretation and the chief one is CONTEXT. It seems you pulled the woman caught in adultery and the demon possessed boy out of their context to justify your position. I guess you haven't read the entire bible yet because throughout it's pages, God gives warnings about dangerous consequences.
I used those people as examples of Christ's mercy and forgiveness. You see, unlike a whole lot of believers, Jesus did not go around talking bad about people and whatever situations they found them
You're right, when it comes to scripture, it is all about context. However, religion tends to make scripture fit its own personal agenda, and that never brings the hope that scripture was originally intended for.
No, I haven't experienced "Hell in this life" and neither have you. I have experienced the same trials and tribulations that all men have just as Jesus said it would be.
You have no idea what I, or anyone else, have experienced in our lives.
To have trials and tribulations can have some of the most profound effects in our lives, for some, it will cause them to have drastic turnarounds in their lives. Now mind you, I'm not just talking about non-believers, I'm talking about believers, too.
So, again. If you haven't experienced it, then good for you.
However, don't assume that somebody else hasn't either, because you don't know.
I don't need to know what you've experienced, I know what the word of God says. Despite what you said about Gahndi, it was Christ that he rejected. That's why people reject the gospel, because they reject Christ. Jesus said it and that settles it. Your opinion is just that...your opinion.
thats ridiculous. Perhaps you should read your Bible once more. We are existent and God created everything, so he is apart of everything, and God is truth, therefore Truth is everywhere. Without the Gospel there would still be Truth and Love. Besides people knew God before the Gospel was written so was there nothing within those few thousand years? God is the Gospel but he is much more than even that
"Hell is directed toward anyone who is an unbeliever"
Well, I heard Mahatma Ghandhi says this about that,
"I would have become a Christian, if it weren't for Christians."
What that says to me is that the believers can keep people from believing. It's not always their hard-heartedness, and their unwillingness to leave their sin, as we tend to many times place the blame.
In many cases, people don't have a problem with God or Christ, they got a problem with Church and Church Folk.
These are all "nice" assertions, but again they're not founded on any scripture. That may have been what Ghandi said, but the bottom line is that he rejected Christ because he chose to rely on his own "good works". That's what self righteous means. So while many people don't have a problem with the god they've creatd in their own minds, it's the God of scripture that they don't like. So while you make these claims, again you contradict what the scripture clearly says.
Again, it wasn't the teachings of Christ that he had a problem with, it was the people who claimed to represent him.
Even, as a believer, I understand where he's coming from. Some of us think we have God and Christ down to a science, and we act so arrogantly, and are ready to condemn and cut anybody who doesn't agree with our beliefs, traditions, dogmas, etc.
You certainly do make a lot of fallacious arguments to try and prove your point. Nobody said anything about "having God down to a science". The fact is, just because one does not know everything does not mean that they can't know anything. There's a reason why God gave us His word and that's so we can know something about Him. Anything outside of that is mere, human speculation. Nothing more.
"Fallacious", because I see God and Scripture in a different light than you do.
Got it!
God gave us his word, and it goes far beyond the writings of scripture. Religion dwindles God's speaking ablilty (his word, if you will) down to a scared book, and I mean that in any religion.
With that, brings division. Even amongst like believers.
Religious people spend much of their time, energy, and resources trying to prove everyone wrong and themselves right.
"Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
~2 Corinthians 3:5-6~
Just because I'm not quoting 1,000 scriptures, does not mean that I'm giving my own opinions.
It's evident that this VERY LONG discussion of ours isn't going anywhere. If you don't agree with what Bell is saying...
...that's your business. But, I would advise you to not to form your own opinions, even with scripture, to condemn him and write him off as a heretic.
Because they called Jesus a heretic. They said he was a blasphemer, and look where he is now.
Again, while it is politically incorrect to discuss the coming judgement and Hell, the scripture does. It's what Paul referred to as "the whole counsel of God" (Acts 20)
Minimizing God's just judgement and eternal punishment demonstrates a lack of understanding of the Holiness of God and the exceedinly sinfulness of the human nature. To deny it is nothing more than self righteousness and human "wisdom".
"...I consider having an understanding that goes beyond the literal..."
How do decide what to take literal and what to take figuratively from the bible? Do you just pick and choose? The things that you don't like become figurative and the things you like are literal? How come feeding the hungry and caring for the poor isn't taken figuratively?
I don't need to ask myself that question, I asked you. Do you pick and choose the things you like and dislike? I never said the bible doesn't use figurative language, I asked you how you discern between the two.
May I suggest that you do ask yourself that question, because your response made you sound a little bit self-righteous.
To answer your question, No I don't pick out what I like and dislike. What I have learned about scripture is that, it's not about "picking and choosing", it's about understanding.
The problem is many believers don't consider a lot of things when it comes to scripture. Such as, culture and the intellect therein.
gtrjunky, you may disagree with this, but it doesn't take scripture to understand that.
Geez!
Think about it.
How many people in the world who are non-believers, are out there seeking some kind of fulfillment in their lives? We hear about it all the time. People who seemingly have it all together, but in one way or another, they're missing something vitally important. They try everything, and everything fails. That right there, is hell. Lacking total fulfillment...
Hell, as the scripture depicts it is a place of consequence for sin. The devil is cast there as well as all who's name is not written in the book of life. So the question is not whether I "understand it" but rather, are your assertions substantiated by scripture. Whether or not it "makes sense" is irrelevant...is it backed by God's word?
Th reason it's not politically correct to warn about judgement and Hell is because so many people are self righteous and don't think that they deserve it. Instead they fashion a god who is like man, corrupt and unjust. They refuse to acknowledge their exceeding wickedness and therefore embrace the safe jesus who would "never do anything like that".
Why do so many believers believe that it takes a threat of eternal punishment to makes people believe?
I have seen people become believers by hearing a word that applies to their lives, people who were hurting and heartbroken and heard about the mercy and unconditional love of God through Christ.
It didn't take being what I call "scared into salvation". Now maybe, that worked for you, but that's not everybody's testimony.
I know I'm coming in very late, but I felt the need to put my 2 cents in. Hell (as the bible describes) is full unimaginable anguish. Physical pain, and emotional pain with the knowledge that you're stuck there for eternity. You can't praise God in hell. I don't believe anyone on earth has experience that kind of pain. I'm sure everyone has been through a great deal of pain, but not compared to what hell is going to be. Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven. Warning people of it.
So, don't be so quick to assume, that people are wrong telling others about Jesus. Just because you tell someone about Jesus, doesn't mean you've lied to them and made their understanding on God worse. I'd rather have people have had at least the chance to know God intimately than to keep my mouth shut for fear of offending people. I don't hold signs that say "you're going to hell" on street corners. God's love is bigger than hell. And THAT'S what people need to know.
...and the only way to have total fulfillment, is through a relationship with God, our father and creator, and because of what he did through Christ Jesus, we have that abiity.
Because Rob is not talking about sin in all of his videos, all of a sudden he preaching a different gospel.
Once again, that proves my point. The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is so much that just about sin. Now mind you, it is a extremely vital part of it. I think we agree there, but it not the totality of it.
I think repentance (or as the greek word suggests, re-thinking) sin is important, because you can't turn from something...
Most things I read between Christians have very little Love in them most judgmental - Does anyone actually think they got God figured out ? "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. I doubt any of us really gets it - I am thankful for the grace to keep pressing in and making mistakes just to press in further... Peace to all
I love to see this, because it is obvious. The legalistic, traditionalist get upset over a fresh spring of water, for those who are thirsty and needy. The kingdom is for the poor of spirit, for the forgotten and sick. That is why it is difficult for a rich man to go to the kingdom of heaven. It is easier for a camel.....
You know what embarasses me, as a Christian, is that so many other Christians spend their time, energy, and resources trying to prove themselves right and everybody else wrong.
Here we see a man like Rob Bell taking a different approach to reaching people with the Gospel message, and all I see are modern-day pharisees, who are verbally stoning him.
One thing we seem to forget:
It wasn't sinners that wanted Jesus dead!! It was the Church!!!
Hmm ... I've reread Totfletchman415 comment a few times now and I still can't understand it. To me God is always a part of Jesus and Jesus is a part of God. And this is a given that not everyone will agree with this belief.
For those who are new to Christianity I feel it is more effective to open with the idea that God, that Jesus, that you as a Christian are willing to love unconditionally and are willing to learn from this new neighbor who God has brought you. So I ask you, what is wrong with the idea of a loving God?
Very easily, do your research. He nether knows, believes, or obeys the Lord Jesus Christ, and teaches the diametric opposite of that taught by Him. The man is not born again, by any method of telling who is the Lord's, notably the 1.Jn.4 test, and he is utterly wicked.
I don't think that it is your place to judge weather he is or isn't an Christian. If you what to be biblical and follow Jesus, that is exactly what He would say. Matt 7:1, Luke 6:37, Matt 7:3 and 4. You say that you only follow Jesus and not man, but you are telling people to listen to their research. This means that you have been listening to mans ideas of Rob Bell, and that is what you are listening to. Quit passing judgments and just pray for Him!!!!
You are mixing all sorts of things up. The Lord's people, and plainly that does not include you as you plainly do not have the Spirit, only Scripture, are TOLD to discern who is who as I said in my last comment.
To act as a judge is to hear both sides of an argument, apportion guilt/blame and dish out justice. Jesus showed what he MEANT by what He said in Lk.12:14.
It is quite the opposite of what you say; to NOT discern who is and who is not the Lord's is dangerous
You know nothing about me and my stance on the Scripture let alone on the Holy Spirit. So at that I laugh. I am done talking to you until you get over your bitter, cynical, arrogant self. Have a great day!!!!!
what is your evidence that he is not of God? If someone is teaching the gospel of accepting Christ as LORD AND SAVIOR , and that is the center of their teaching, why would that not be of God? I'm not looking to argue, I just want your perspective on the matter.
If you are filled with the Holy Spirit of God, which Bell is not, they you would know. However, if you are just religious about God, but don't know Him you will have no idea, as all you have to go on is theology and reason.
Bell denies Christ is the ONLY salvation. He denies the atonement, and all sorts of other things. He is demonically inspired and a thoroughly wicked man. Avoid him and everthing to do with him, even if you are only religious.
dude, Jesus isn't some hippie trying to make us all love each other. The basic message is that we are sinners, and therefore deserve God's wrath and judgement. However, Jesus took that punishment for us. Of course, any idiot can die, and so by rising from the dead, Jesus shows He has defeated death and is not just a hippy making pithy little zen statements. Yes, loving one another is a good thing, but it is the death and resurrection of Jesus that are core to Christianity.
here's one of the problems Chrisitianity faces as many people view it:
Some Christians (not all) are quick to point out the faults and weaknesses of others because they believe if confession of sins are not immediately given then eternal damnation will be certain. This turns many interested people off from the love of God. Remember: for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. The Bible talks more about love than punishment. Redemptive love is reassuring
Sure, but it's important not to forget who Jesus is. In my experience, Rob Bell is very humanistic, and it becomes all about having a nice time and loving one another.
Also, I've heard that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost are one (also called the Holy Trinity) so talking about God is remembering Jesus and vice versa.
Put it this way, you owe nothing except to love one another as your neighbor. If you do this then you fulfill the law of God. You can't go wrong with love. Love fulfills God's law.
I think a guy named Paul write that. Probably some hippie.
Just because you say God doesn't mean you mean Jesus though... I'm sorry if that's what you meant, but not all people mean that. Have you ever studied the purpose of the Law?
oh, it was nothing uber specific... I just meant to say that in saying 'God', someone may more specifically mean God the Father, not God as in the trinity. Sorry! i was just a little confused on wording =)
Does anyone else find it so very odd that so many people are dumping seemingly limitless amounts of energy into hating everything that Rob Bell says and does, only to see Rob respond not in defense, but by explaining how his community will continue to love the world toward Jesus?
The kind of hate that people have for Rob or Mars Hill feels so... wrong. It's not a righteous hate for something ungodly. It's something else. And it's not from Jesus.
No what I find odd, but not surprising, is that so many of Bell's devotees are so willing to toss around the hate word at someone simply for using the gift of discernment, which is commanded in scripture BTW. Bell has arrogantly tossed aside many of the church's teachings which have been considered fundamental for centuries such as the virgin birth, salvation through Christ alone etc. Pointing out those errors is not hate.
Have you been reading some of these responses? The anti-Bell responses can be categorized as judgmental and hateful. Many people say that those who listen to Bell are going straight to hell. That's not "pointing" anything out, and discernment is generally accompanied with love. If it isn't, then you are not exercising a gift, just throwing stones.
Fair enough. Some of the responses are over the top. But I have seen it where someone simply pointing out where Bell strays from historic and apostolic Christianity is labeled narrow-minded or a hate-monger. Rarely have I seen a Bell-disciple actually be able to refute any of his criticisms. Usually they simply accuse those critical of Bell of being hateful.
I would never call myself a Bell-disciple, nor do I go to his church. But I really resonate with much of what he says.
Take how the word for virgin in Hebrew *may* not exclusively mean someone who had not had sex, both in the new and old testament translations. So, what do you do with that? Does that remove the divinity of Christ? No virgin = no Salvation?
That is one passage. There are other passages that clearly refer to a virgin. And most scholars concede that the passage Bell refers to speaks of a virgin.
What does it say of Bell that he reduces a belief that the church has confessed as fundamental for centuries to, at best, a non-essential, based on a maybe? Does it not strike you as a little arrogant? He is essentially saying that he has more insight on this passage than the apostles and church-fathers.
For me, no it does not. However, it's a church foundation, rooted in tradition and taught through each generation. Yet the Bible remains silent on the subject, we make a big deal about it.
Rob isn't saying that the virgin birth didn't happen, or Jesus isn't divine, or we don't have Salvation. My interpretation of what Rob is saying is that does it really matter? For someone trying to find God and is all hung up on these little details, do we really need to prove our little theologies?
I wouldn't dismiss the divinity of Christ nor the virgin brith as "little theologies." They are intrinsically a part of why it is through Christ and nobody else that we have salvation. That said, evangelism does not begin with proclaiming the virgin-birth, but neither should it begin with dismissing it. But it should eventually be taught as a fundamental. There is a reason why it is in all three of the historic ecumenical creeds.
Ha, it seems American believers think Rob Bell is the anti-Christ and English believers think he's one of the most inspiring and helpful theologians writing today. Why is that?
Evolving church??? Smug emerging church crap, Rob Bell you are a self-righteous antichrist. How many noomas did you sell last month? I don't think anyone in your church is old enough to even drink a beer. Stumbled on a gigantic ignorant cash cow didn't you?
ROB BELL is one among many FALSE TEACHERS today. He is not Christian. He teaches unbiblical nonsense. He is leading people to Hell.
For the truth, turn to Voddie Baucham, Paul Washser, John Piper, John MacArthur, Alistair Begg, James White, White Horse Inn, Wretched Radio, Living Waters.
Walk away from this heretic. No, RUN! Your eternity depends on it.
Repent & put your faith & trust in Christ as Lord and Savior. He demands it. And read your Bible daily.
Amen. Rob Bell NEVER preaches about just how sinful and wicked and corrupt mankind reallly is in his natural state. And he NEVER preaches about repentance. That is part of the gospel and he leaves it out in order not to offend people. He calls that love but its not. Where the gospel isn't preached, there is NO salvation. What Rob preaches is the opposite of love.
Looking at the Bible in a new perspective is the same thing that atan said to Eve! He told her to look at Gods command different and we all are suffering from it! Why are you all so blind! Wake up, Read your Bibles and study Historical Theology. When you tamper with Truth your playing with the fires of hell. I feel for rob, he is going to pay big for leading many astray. I read your comments on here and see so many who think themselves saved and you know not GOD! Repent and Believe!
How can you say Historical Orthodoxy and "We believe the Bible to be the voices of many who have come before us, inspired by God to pass along their poems, stories, accounts, and letters of response and relationship with each other and the living God" in the same sentance! Why are you all so Blind! Not one Theologian in Historical Christianity would affirm and condone such perversness! This guy is a false teacher and is leading millions to Hell!
We affirm the central truths of historic orthodox Christian faith, seeing ourselves in a long line of generations taking part in the endless conversation between God and people. We believe the Bible to be the voices of many who have come before us, inspired by God to pass along their poems, stories, accounts, and letters of response and relationship with each other and the living God. To know where we're going, we have to know where we've been. -Rob's Theological Belief from His Web page
Rob Bell may preach that we should "love" people. But he doesn't know what the word love means as it is defined in the Bible. His message is one designed to please people instead of truly loving them. You will never hear him preach the true gospel. He will never preach Romans 1:18-32 or 3:9-20 and how people are evil by nature and by nature they are children of wrath. He doesn't preach this because it is offensive to people. Well I have news, the gospel IS offensive, so that people will repent.
Rob Bell should move to Europe where his teachings won't be recognized for the heresy they are. Can his speaking be any more convoluted? and confusing?
kiddosgal 2 weeks ago
In Love Wins, Bell redefines the meaning of Heaven and Hell. By doing so, he makes Jesus responsible for the suffering and abuse that some children receive. You can see how he does this at Hells Bell Dot Net...specifically under the section titled "Hell - New & Improved".
PreachingJesus 5 months ago
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Rob Bell you twist the Word of God to your fiancial advantage Woe to you! The primary Message , the Gist of the Bible is that God wants you with Him in Heaven eternally through his Beloved Son and that we don't need to do anything except accept Jesus and confess Him as Lord God you blasphemous deciever Woe to you! It is a free gift you don't have to do anything even if you are still a sinner Yeshua died for your sins he didn't say ah ok my blood will cover your sins till you're 38 ?
babyboqboq 9 months ago
What in the world is he saying?
dallasmckinley 10 months ago
@dallasmckinley I don't have a clue. Let me know if you figure it out.
thesacredcowtipper 10 months ago
Um, how do I say....? VAGUE, he totally avoids anything with proper substance - SO SORRY, no I take that back I don't apologize, CHRIST is NOT meant to be watered down!
snuffluphagus2 10 months ago 3
stay away from Rob Bell!
rickgigliotti 11 months ago
I love how genuine this man is.
Petirep 11 months ago
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@Petirep Rob Bell either does NOT KNOW the Bible, or deliberately LIES!
rickgigliotti 8 months ago
@linkvashflcl
It is healthy to be skeptical of those who want to sell you absolute truths, even your pastor. When you are unsaved it is healthy to be skeptical of the message of Jesus. Questioning God is a prerequisite for faith.
Rob Bell is a healthy skeptic. He asks a lot of questions and gives few absolute answers. Which is exactly the same religious culture that existed in Jesus' time.
Only those without answers should be afraid of questions. God isn't scared of Rob's questions.
BobHenryFrankGeorge 1 year ago 2
@BobHenryFrankGeorge What's wrong with absolute truths? Are you affraid of them?
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky you apparently are
hows that debate coming along for you ? you have a scriptural answer for 1 out of 1 yet?
I didnt think so.
captbullhorn 1 year ago
I really like a lot of Rob's method and approach though. Like "What's your demographic or target?" Answer: people
"Some things are true period."
I just am worried about how firmly he holds to certain core truths... I get the trampoline springs analogy and it's good but it all depends on which beliefs are springs and does Rob think EVERY spring can be exchanged??? Is the Trinity a spring that can be replaced? Hell? Heaven? Questioning is fine. Undermining core biblical truths is not.
linkvashflcl 1 year ago
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@linkvashflcl
It is healthy to be skeptical of those who want to sell you absolute truths, even your pastor. When you are unsaved it is healthy to be skeptical of the message of Jesus. Questioning God is a prerequisite for faith.
Rob Bell is a healthy skeptic. He asks a lot of questions and gives few absolute answers. Which is exactly the same religious culture that existed in Jesus' time.
Only those without answers should be afraid of questions. God isn't scared of Rob's questions.
BobHenryFrankGeorge 1 year ago
Jesus came with nonviolence the first time. In Revelation Jesus comes with a sword. Jesus was perfectly loving and merciful. But he knew when to be strong and harsh. Jesus talks about both Heaven AND Hell. The first baptism is by water the last will be by fire, etc.
I think Rob emphasizes too much the more pleasant looking sides of Christianity at the expense of showing people how ugly we are in our sin and how Holy and Just God is.
God's wrath is mentioned more than his love in the Bible
linkvashflcl 1 year ago
It's nice that Rob Bell emphasizes God's love, forgiveness, and grace. It's great for PREACHING to nonbelievers but in TEACHING self-avowed Christians I think Rob really needs to emphasize how seriously MESSED UP AND SINFUL people, both Christians and non, are.
I don't like JUST hearing about how we all need to love and forgive. Because duh that's true. You don't need to be a Christian to know that. But God and Jesus GOT ANGRY, rebuked and condemned people's sin, etc.
linkvashflcl 1 year ago
@linkvashflcl
have you ever read any of Robs Books?
tickaboo100 1 year ago
I had no idea they had churches in the UK.....That is a true miracle O.o
moJomittens 2 years ago 2
Wow... Rob Bell is one smart cookie.
JullenaBurcham 2 years ago 2
I think John is absolutly right. John is amazing!!!!
westhambuck 2 years ago
It's amazing how much biblical ignorance is on this post, and then the one guy who actually quotes scripture gets a "thumbs down". Look at all the totally stupid things these people are saying
gtrjunky 2 years ago
When I say "totally stupid" that's apart from anything that Rob Bell says.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
" Where's the supremacy of God? Where's the essence of the Gospel? Where's 'repent from your sins and trust in Jesus?"
This is where we have gotten stuck in Christianity.
We have minimized the Gospel message to just repenting of sin.
When, in actuality, it is so much more than that!!! It's about loving one another and being an example of mercy, kindness and compassion.
Why have so many Christians forgotten about that? Many have become Modern-day Pharisees and don't even know it.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
I agree with you brentduanefoster. I totally agree. In my recent comment whrn I mention the word rich, I am not referring to the wealthy but to the church. It is the Church that killed Jesus Christ, and I often think about this. It forces me to reflect on that reality. This is ridiculous. This whole interview is ridiculous...
zebul0717 2 years ago
The church killed Jesus??? And what verse is that???
gtrjunky 2 years ago
The Church didn't kill Jesus, but they definitely wanted him dead.
Oh yeah, and scripture even records that!!!
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
Matthew 12:14, by the way.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
The pharisees were not the church. There was no "church" until Christ came.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
What do u call the synagogue? What do you call that? It might be another priesthood. YES! I must admit that! But wht do we call it? The Jewish golf club at that time? Ignorant comments. Same people that make others turn away from Christ!
zebul0717 2 years ago
The synagogue was just that, the synagogue. Jesus said "on this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH..." The people that turn away from Christ do so by their own volition because by nature they are at war with God and His enemies by nature.
You know it's one of those silly little things that, that dumb book talks about.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Another translation says, "Upon this revelation (that Jesus was the Christ), I will build my Church. The greek word for "Church" means Called out ones.
I would disagree that we are at war with God, but rather at war with religion.
What turns people off from God are the religion that atttempt to represent him, and their mentality that "we know God, and if you don't get with us, he's gonna destroy you."
Also, use scripture to legitimize their beliefs. That's was the Pharisses issue.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
I guess we can make the bible say whatever we want it to say and we can just file it under the category of "seeing it in a different light"? Tht's pretty much the post modern mind set. That phrase goes back to Genesis 3, "did God really say...?"
gtrjunky 2 years ago
(My final response)
If that's the way you look at it, that's your business. I understand and respect your stance.
I respect the bible. I take the bible seriously, but not all of it literally.
That comes from what I have learned about God.
You understanding of God and of scripture, produces what you believe.
But allow me to say this, do not put down someone else's understanding of scripture in an attempt to exalt yours.
We are all still children of God.
God Bless.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
I will put it down if it doesn't line up with scripture.
Again, how do discern between the literal and the figurative?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
The apostle Paul admonished the Bereans for searching the scriptures to see if what he taught was true, but by today's criteria, that is considered being a "pharisee". Hmmm.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
1Jn 4:1 Says that we should try the spirits whether they are of God. I can see the spirit that is in you and that just proves what our brother Brentduanefoster is saying from the beginning of this arguement! Remember it is by the spirit not only by the written word.
obradeorange 2 years ago
So tell me, how do you know when the Spirit is at work apart from the word?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Matthew 10: 10-20 Says to us that what makes the difference in what you are just saying about the Bereans is that we must not just relay on the Word alone but depend on the spirit as well. It is a delicate balance. Because one thing is to say the truth with compassion and another to say the truth without the love of Christ. Blessings Bother gtrjunky...
obradeorange 2 years ago
Didn't Jesus say "man shall not live by bread alone but by every WORD..."? Not a subjective experience.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
BTW, that passage from Matthew, in no way supports what you just said.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
nor does the passage from Matthew support your video either.
captbullhorn 1 year ago
@captbullhorn
The spirit of God will always continue to shift and shape and create. And people like yourself will stay frozen behind missing out on what God is trying to teach us because of your old and static traditions. Wake Up, It doesn't end at the Bible the gospel is still going, it continues with us. Jesus broke the old rules because he understood more and more with a new generation. But he said "You shall do greater things than I have" lets keep it going but stop drying it up
tickaboo100 1 year ago
This has been the mindset throughout history. Anyone who believes they have it right because it is what has been preached for 2000 years is commiting idolatry. There is nothing apart from subjective expereince and no reason to believe that any doctrine is more worthy than another. All knowledge comes through expereince and is socially situated. The bible is ALWAYS interpreted through mans eyes and just because an interpretation has been accepted for centuries makes it no more worthy.
ledleyk23 2 years ago
Really? Says who?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
hey tell your daddy write his own sermons, thou shalt not covet the sermons of comfort.
luvdady 1 year ago
Please, you speak as if you were the only one that read the Bible. We must also use common sense... Yes you are right on what you mention: Jesus said "on this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH..." Because there were other churches friend.But We can spend 2 or 3 months fighting and arguing about this. But see the fruits of your heart.
obradeorange 2 years ago
The "fruits of my heart"??? And how is it that you know my heart?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
dude! gtrjunky! how's the family? I can't believe you're still at this stuff after all these months. It's invigorating, huh? Anyhoo, just thought I'd say hi. let me know if you want to catch up or something. You never recommended books or anything like I asked before. I guess we each just have our own cliques now. Well, let me tell you, I've decided to become a Calvinist recently. Not bad. Been listening to a lot of Mark Driscoll. What do you think of him? Hope your fall is going well. Love you.
cats9900 2 years ago
Don't be hypocritical. Of course we are not talking about the body of Christ. We are talking about the church at that time. The high priests. etc, etc etc. Which can considered a prophetic sign. It will happen. Don't comeup with that bolognie of "Where is the verse for that!" You see there we go again with the same thing!!!!!
zebul0717 2 years ago
"Hypocritical"? "Balognie of where's that verse at". Yea, that's the way the world thinks. It is God's word that is the standard for truth.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
"We have minimized the Gospel message to just repenting of sin."
That is definitely the an ignorant thing to say. It seems that you don't know what the biblical gospel is. You are confusing the fruit of the gospel with the gospel itself.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Is it ignorant? Really?
The "Biblical" Gospel, huh?
You mean the thought process that says, "Unless you become a Christian, God has no use for you, and your nothing but a worthless creation doomed for eternal damnnation."
Is that the "Biblical" Gospel you're talking about? If so, then you sir, have made my very point about how many Christians have become nothing but Modern-Day Pharisees. They knew everything about the law and all of the tradtions, but knew nothing about mercy...
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
I agree with you Brent!
zebul0717 2 years ago
Thanks, Zebul!!!!
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
(Cont.)
...forgiveness, love, justice, etc.
Christianity, in many cases have taken on that mentality, and it is NO WONDER why people are turned off from knowing God.
Am I saying we just ignore sin? Not at all.
But the Gospel IS much more than just dealing with sin. When the Church finally gets that, there will be great progress and forward motion in the Body of Christ.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
The gospel (good news) isn't good news unless one first knows the bad news.
1 Cor. 15:1-5 is Paul's recap to the Corinthian church of what the gospel is. Again, you are confusing the fruits of salvation with the gospel itself. The true church already understands this and they've been doing it for the last 2000 years. It's not as though the church needs someone like Bell to "really get it". His "gospel" is nothin more than a social "gospel".
gtrjunky 2 years ago
"The gospel (good news) isn't good news unless one first knows the bad news."
Oh, so if one does not hear that God has a pit of eternal punishment for those who are not members of the Christian faith (aka "not saved"), it will compel them to become believers and THEN they can operate in all that stuff I mentioned, right?
Well, what about that passage in Matthew 7:11, where Jesus said, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children..."?
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
(cont.)
Also, it's amazing how those who call themselves Christians talk about Jesus and how he addressed sin, but forget that most of his followers were those that religion rejected. That is because, he wasn't beating them about their sin, like some of us Christians do, but rather he was compassion towards them, and them understand their true identity, which helped them leave their life of sin.
I'm reminded of when Jesus encounter Matthew the tax collector in Matthew 9...
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
(cont.)
...when after he encountered Matthew the Tax Collector, he dined at his house, and who had something arrogant and self-righteous to say about it?
Yep, you guessed it, The Pharisees.
But, I like Jesus' response to this matter in verses 12 and 13, "...Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: I desire mercy and not sacrifice. For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
(cont.)
In other words, Jesus was being a liitle sarcastic. He was saying "Well, you guys don't need me, you've 'got it all together', so I'm going after those whom you've turned your nose up at.".
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
The point her is about what the Gospel IS and what it ISN'T. It isn't about feeding the poor and making the world into a better place. It's about unrighteous people being made righteous before God through Jesus Christ. It's about fleeing from God's wrath to come and having eternal life.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Once again, you are proving my point how we have minimalized the Gospel to being just about sin, and how religion says that God is angry and wants to kill us if we don't subscribe to this certain belief system.
What about about all the other stuff that Jesus talked about? You know, "Loving your neighbor as yourself." "Bless those that persecute you." "You are the salt of the earth...the light of the world"? Is that not part of the Gospel, or is that just something he just felt like saying?
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
It doesn't really matter what your point is. The scriptures testify to what the gospel is not your own ideas.
Again the way you paint this picture is disingenuous. It's a strawman.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Why wasn't Jesus "beating them" about their sin? Because the Law had done that for 2000 years. These Hebrew people were well aware of their sinful condition which is why they went to Temple for the sacrifice every year.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
"Why wasn't Jesus "beating them" about their sin? Because the Law had done that for 2000 years."
Yes, and it seems like we're still doing it today!!
They went to sacrifice every year, but Jesus came to be the sacrifice for all time, and they did not recieve him. You know this.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
The law still has a purpose today. It is to show a man his unrighteousness and drive him to the cross. That's what it has always been for. When Jesus said "Love God and neighbor", He was bringing the law to it's maximum degree to crush all self righteousness.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
That's a strawman argument. Those who need a physician are the one's who know the bad news. In other words they are contrite about their sinful condition.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Also, according to the scriptures, the reason people are turned off from God is because they love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil,(John 3:19) and because they are enemies of God (Col.1:21)(Rom.5:10) and they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom.18-32)
gtrjunky 2 years ago
"...they love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil."
Jesus was referring to the religious leaders (you know, the ones who wanted to kill him), they loved their religion, their rules and regulations, etc, and Jesus called that "darkness". Because it kept people from understanding the true character of God.
.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
That refers to all of mankind. Read Romans 1.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
The reason Jesus despised the pharisees is because they were relying on their own works to be right before God. Just because people are studious in the word and raise their voice against false teachers, does not make them a "pharisee". Jesus also chided the scribes and the herodians as well. The herodians could be considered the old liberals of that time...much like Rob Bell.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Right, and it because of that, it kept others away from believing.
So Jesus had to come and Re-Present God in a way that outsiders could understand and recieve.
I think your issue with Rob Bell is that his methods don't line up with your traditions, and if they don't line up with tradition, they're automatically deemed a "false prophet".
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
No, it's about his false teachings. It's a tragic thing that the mention of Judgment and Hell have become politically incorrect, due to the self righteousness of people like Bell and his other cohorts. They don't talk about the fact that we're ALL wicked and seperated from God because of our sin. Instead, they teach that we're "broken". As if we're helpless victims of circumstance instead of guilty criminals.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Sin comes into play when one does not know his/her true identity when it comes to God.
It is human nature to seek after fulfillment in one way or another. They way God sees it, it is sin to seek after fulfillment outside of me. But, because they don't know me, I will reveal myself through Christ, and show them or remind them of who they are.
Hell, contrary to traditional thought, is a constant pursuit of, but lack of attainment of that fulfillment. A unfillable void, if you will.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
(cont.)
Religion takes that concept, and makes it apply to the afterlife, and the ungodly fear it produces, compels people to subscribe to that particular belief system, and it is a continual reproduction of fear.
That why Jesus said, and I'm paraphrasing, "You go all over the world to find one convert, and when you do, you make him twice a citizen of Hell as you are". In other words, you put that convert in deeper bondage than you already are.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
You did a lot of scripture twisting here. When Jesus talked to the Pharisees about "making converts", He was talking about Law keeping. The pharisees made them that way because they were puting them under the yoke of the law. It nothing to with teaching about Hell or fear.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Well, what you consider "twisting" scripture, I consider having an understanding that goes beyond the literal. Don't you see how they work together? The Pharisees try to keep their converts under the yoke of the law, and they use fear and Hell to do it.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
That sounds nice, but it was Jesus who spoke about Hell. What passage of scripture depicts the pharisees using Hell and fear as a yoke?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Yes he did, but who was it mainly directed towards? The Pharisees, his biggest opponents!!!
Not the woman caught in the act of adultery, or the demon-possessed boy, or the tax collectors and "sinners" he dined with. Religion uses Hell and fear, and will, as you say twist scripture to do it.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
Hell is directed toward anyone who is an unbeliever, and no I haven't "experienced Hell in this life". There are things to keep in mind when it comes to biblical interpretation and the chief one is CONTEXT. It seems you pulled the woman caught in adultery and the demon possessed boy out of their context to justify your position. I guess you haven't read the entire bible yet because throughout it's pages, God gives warnings about dangerous consequences.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
You haven't experienced hell in this life?
Well, you're one of the lucky ones.
I used those people as examples of Christ's mercy and forgiveness. You see, unlike a whole lot of believers, Jesus did not go around talking bad about people and whatever situations they found them
You're right, when it comes to scripture, it is all about context. However, religion tends to make scripture fit its own personal agenda, and that never brings the hope that scripture was originally intended for.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
No, I haven't experienced "Hell in this life" and neither have you. I have experienced the same trials and tribulations that all men have just as Jesus said it would be.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
You have no idea what I, or anyone else, have experienced in our lives.
To have trials and tribulations can have some of the most profound effects in our lives, for some, it will cause them to have drastic turnarounds in their lives. Now mind you, I'm not just talking about non-believers, I'm talking about believers, too.
So, again. If you haven't experienced it, then good for you.
However, don't assume that somebody else hasn't either, because you don't know.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
I don't need to know what you've experienced, I know what the word of God says. Despite what you said about Gahndi, it was Christ that he rejected. That's why people reject the gospel, because they reject Christ. Jesus said it and that settles it. Your opinion is just that...your opinion.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
"I don't need to know what you've experienced, I know what the word of God says."
Oh yeah, REAL Christ-like, right there.
It's statements like that turn people off from becoming believers.
Hence, you prove the point of Ghandhi's statement.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
Actually the bible says that the rteason pople are turned off from God is because they love darkness and hate the light.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
wow, thank the Lord some christians are still out there that aren't ashamed of the gospel
stucerocks 2 years ago 10
without the gospel we are nothing.
stephensanchez5271 1 year ago
@stephensanchez5271
thats ridiculous. Perhaps you should read your Bible once more. We are existent and God created everything, so he is apart of everything, and God is truth, therefore Truth is everywhere. Without the Gospel there would still be Truth and Love. Besides people knew God before the Gospel was written so was there nothing within those few thousand years? God is the Gospel but he is much more than even that
tickaboo100 1 year ago
"Hell is directed toward anyone who is an unbeliever"
Well, I heard Mahatma Ghandhi says this about that,
"I would have become a Christian, if it weren't for Christians."
What that says to me is that the believers can keep people from believing. It's not always their hard-heartedness, and their unwillingness to leave their sin, as we tend to many times place the blame.
In many cases, people don't have a problem with God or Christ, they got a problem with Church and Church Folk.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
These are all "nice" assertions, but again they're not founded on any scripture. That may have been what Ghandi said, but the bottom line is that he rejected Christ because he chose to rely on his own "good works". That's what self righteous means. So while many people don't have a problem with the god they've creatd in their own minds, it's the God of scripture that they don't like. So while you make these claims, again you contradict what the scripture clearly says.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
"...he chose to rely on his own "good works".
That's where you got it messed up.
Again, it wasn't the teachings of Christ that he had a problem with, it was the people who claimed to represent him.
Even, as a believer, I understand where he's coming from. Some of us think we have God and Christ down to a science, and we act so arrogantly, and are ready to condemn and cut anybody who doesn't agree with our beliefs, traditions, dogmas, etc.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
You certainly do make a lot of fallacious arguments to try and prove your point. Nobody said anything about "having God down to a science". The fact is, just because one does not know everything does not mean that they can't know anything. There's a reason why God gave us His word and that's so we can know something about Him. Anything outside of that is mere, human speculation. Nothing more.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
"Fallacious", because I see God and Scripture in a different light than you do.
Got it!
God gave us his word, and it goes far beyond the writings of scripture. Religion dwindles God's speaking ablilty (his word, if you will) down to a scared book, and I mean that in any religion.
With that, brings division. Even amongst like believers.
Religious people spend much of their time, energy, and resources trying to prove everyone wrong and themselves right.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
Well you can see whatever you want to "see" but still you must back your claims by scrpture and not your own opinions.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
"Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
~2 Corinthians 3:5-6~
Just because I'm not quoting 1,000 scriptures, does not mean that I'm giving my own opinions.
It's evident that this VERY LONG discussion of ours isn't going anywhere. If you don't agree with what Bell is saying...
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
(cont.)
...that's your business. But, I would advise you to not to form your own opinions, even with scripture, to condemn him and write him off as a heretic.
Because they called Jesus a heretic. They said he was a blasphemer, and look where he is now.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
Again, while it is politically incorrect to discuss the coming judgement and Hell, the scripture does. It's what Paul referred to as "the whole counsel of God" (Acts 20)
Minimizing God's just judgement and eternal punishment demonstrates a lack of understanding of the Holiness of God and the exceedinly sinfulness of the human nature. To deny it is nothing more than self righteousness and human "wisdom".
gtrjunky 2 years ago
"...I consider having an understanding that goes beyond the literal..."
How do decide what to take literal and what to take figuratively from the bible? Do you just pick and choose? The things that you don't like become figurative and the things you like are literal? How come feeding the hungry and caring for the poor isn't taken figuratively?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
"How do decide what to take literal and what to take figuratively from the bible? Do you just pick and choose?"
Ask yourself that question, then get back to me.
Do we take "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out" literally? If we did, there would be a lot of one-eyed believers.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
I don't need to ask myself that question, I asked you. Do you pick and choose the things you like and dislike? I never said the bible doesn't use figurative language, I asked you how you discern between the two.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
gtrjunky,
May I suggest that you do ask yourself that question, because your response made you sound a little bit self-righteous.
To answer your question, No I don't pick out what I like and dislike. What I have learned about scripture is that, it's not about "picking and choosing", it's about understanding.
The problem is many believers don't consider a lot of things when it comes to scripture. Such as, culture and the intellect therein.
Also, whether you know it or not...
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
"Hell, contrary to traditional thought, is a constant pursuit of, but lack of attainment of that fulfillment. A unfillable void, if you will."
Really? What verse is that?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
gtrjunky, you may disagree with this, but it doesn't take scripture to understand that.
Geez!
Think about it.
How many people in the world who are non-believers, are out there seeking some kind of fulfillment in their lives? We hear about it all the time. People who seemingly have it all together, but in one way or another, they're missing something vitally important. They try everything, and everything fails. That right there, is hell. Lacking total fulfillment...
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
Hell, as the scripture depicts it is a place of consequence for sin. The devil is cast there as well as all who's name is not written in the book of life. So the question is not whether I "understand it" but rather, are your assertions substantiated by scripture. Whether or not it "makes sense" is irrelevant...is it backed by God's word?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
"Hell, as the scripture depicts it is a place of consequence for sin. "
...and have we not experienced that in this life?
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
Th reason it's not politically correct to warn about judgement and Hell is because so many people are self righteous and don't think that they deserve it. Instead they fashion a god who is like man, corrupt and unjust. They refuse to acknowledge their exceeding wickedness and therefore embrace the safe jesus who would "never do anything like that".
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Why do so many believers believe that it takes a threat of eternal punishment to makes people believe?
I have seen people become believers by hearing a word that applies to their lives, people who were hurting and heartbroken and heard about the mercy and unconditional love of God through Christ.
It didn't take being what I call "scared into salvation". Now maybe, that worked for you, but that's not everybody's testimony.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
I know I'm coming in very late, but I felt the need to put my 2 cents in. Hell (as the bible describes) is full unimaginable anguish. Physical pain, and emotional pain with the knowledge that you're stuck there for eternity. You can't praise God in hell. I don't believe anyone on earth has experience that kind of pain. I'm sure everyone has been through a great deal of pain, but not compared to what hell is going to be. Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven. Warning people of it.
libbygirl737 2 years ago 2
So, don't be so quick to assume, that people are wrong telling others about Jesus. Just because you tell someone about Jesus, doesn't mean you've lied to them and made their understanding on God worse. I'd rather have people have had at least the chance to know God intimately than to keep my mouth shut for fear of offending people. I don't hold signs that say "you're going to hell" on street corners. God's love is bigger than hell. And THAT'S what people need to know.
libbygirl737 2 years ago 21
(cont.)
...and the only way to have total fulfillment, is through a relationship with God, our father and creator, and because of what he did through Christ Jesus, we have that abiity.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
It has nothing to do with "methods". I'm all for videos done artistically or cool music but it's about a different gospel (Gal.1)
gtrjunky 2 years ago
So, let me get this straight.
Because Rob is not talking about sin in all of his videos, all of a sudden he preaching a different gospel.
Once again, that proves my point. The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is so much that just about sin. Now mind you, it is a extremely vital part of it. I think we agree there, but it not the totality of it.
I think repentance (or as the greek word suggests, re-thinking) sin is important, because you can't turn from something...
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
(cont.)
...without first having a renewing of your thought process about it, as Romans 12 would suggest.
I don't think it a "different" Gospel, just a different, and quite frankly, a more neglected aspect of the Gospel, because it's still good news.
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
What do you know... Just read your comments!!! For crying out loud! If you do not consider the synagogue a church - what that heck do you know?
zebul0717 2 years ago
Most things I read between Christians have very little Love in them most judgmental - Does anyone actually think they got God figured out ? "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. I doubt any of us really gets it - I am thankful for the grace to keep pressing in and making mistakes just to press in further... Peace to all
tmc1359 2 years ago
I love to see this, because it is obvious. The legalistic, traditionalist get upset over a fresh spring of water, for those who are thirsty and needy. The kingdom is for the poor of spirit, for the forgotten and sick. That is why it is difficult for a rich man to go to the kingdom of heaven. It is easier for a camel.....
zebul0717 2 years ago
You know what embarasses me, as a Christian, is that so many other Christians spend their time, energy, and resources trying to prove themselves right and everybody else wrong.
Here we see a man like Rob Bell taking a different approach to reaching people with the Gospel message, and all I see are modern-day pharisees, who are verbally stoning him.
One thing we seem to forget:
It wasn't sinners that wanted Jesus dead!! It was the Church!!!
!
brentduanefoster 2 years ago
Bell is for Christ...so how can u be against him. Or are u against Christ. If u judge him u judge God!
iloveeveryoneable 2 years ago
They started a new company....that explains it?
Pfsif 2 years ago
google this article, it is so gooooooooood
EMERGENCE CHRISTIANITY: QUANTUM SHIFT TO PANENTHEISM By Pastor Ken Silva.
john146only 2 years ago
Hmm ... I've reread Totfletchman415 comment a few times now and I still can't understand it. To me God is always a part of Jesus and Jesus is a part of God. And this is a given that not everyone will agree with this belief.
Musicpuzzle 2 years ago
For those who are new to Christianity I feel it is more effective to open with the idea that God, that Jesus, that you as a Christian are willing to love unconditionally and are willing to learn from this new neighbor who God has brought you. So I ask you, what is wrong with the idea of a loving God?
Musicpuzzle 2 years ago
How sad that this man does not know he is not even one of God's people to begin with, but an outsider; a religoious outsider.
BroJustin 2 years ago
How do you justify saying that this guy isn't a Christian?
mbiggs89 2 years ago
Very easily, do your research. He nether knows, believes, or obeys the Lord Jesus Christ, and teaches the diametric opposite of that taught by Him. The man is not born again, by any method of telling who is the Lord's, notably the 1.Jn.4 test, and he is utterly wicked.
BroJustin 2 years ago
Are you a neo-Calvinist?
elessarelfstar 2 years ago
Not that i
BroJustin 2 years ago
Sorry, try again; not that I am aware of. I don't follow men, Calvin or anyone else. Jesus said 'follow ME..'
BroJustin 2 years ago
I don't think that it is your place to judge weather he is or isn't an Christian. If you what to be biblical and follow Jesus, that is exactly what He would say. Matt 7:1, Luke 6:37, Matt 7:3 and 4. You say that you only follow Jesus and not man, but you are telling people to listen to their research. This means that you have been listening to mans ideas of Rob Bell, and that is what you are listening to. Quit passing judgments and just pray for Him!!!!
davidruybalid 2 years ago
Really....? But GOD says, through John, that you are to discern who is who; who is saved and who is not. 1.Jn.4. You cannot obey Mt.7:6 if you cannot.
When I speak of doing one's research I mean looking into what spirit he is of, and seeing what the man is doing/saying.
I am not going to pray for an evil godless hypocrite and enemy of God, friend. If I do it will only be to ask the Lord to stop him.
BroJustin 2 years ago
Matt. 5:43 and 44
Luke 6:37
Matt. 7:3
By Judging and saying that someone is not a Christian, you are playing God and that is a dangerous, dangerous thing.
1 Sam 16:7
davidruybalid 2 years ago
You are mixing all sorts of things up. The Lord's people, and plainly that does not include you as you plainly do not have the Spirit, only Scripture, are TOLD to discern who is who as I said in my last comment.
To act as a judge is to hear both sides of an argument, apportion guilt/blame and dish out justice. Jesus showed what he MEANT by what He said in Lk.12:14.
It is quite the opposite of what you say; to NOT discern who is and who is not the Lord's is dangerous
BroJustin 2 years ago
You know nothing about me and my stance on the Scripture let alone on the Holy Spirit. So at that I laugh. I am done talking to you until you get over your bitter, cynical, arrogant self. Have a great day!!!!!
davidruybalid 2 years ago
what is your evidence that he is not of God? If someone is teaching the gospel of accepting Christ as LORD AND SAVIOR , and that is the center of their teaching, why would that not be of God? I'm not looking to argue, I just want your perspective on the matter.
brianflaig1 2 years ago
If you are filled with the Holy Spirit of God, which Bell is not, they you would know. However, if you are just religious about God, but don't know Him you will have no idea, as all you have to go on is theology and reason.
Bell denies Christ is the ONLY salvation. He denies the atonement, and all sorts of other things. He is demonically inspired and a thoroughly wicked man. Avoid him and everthing to do with him, even if you are only religious.
BroJustin 2 years ago
With regards to judging other Christians, read 1 Corinthians 5 (particularly the last 2 verses).
God expects us to remove people who claim to be Christians yet live immoral lives from the church.
98nafets 2 years ago
Christianity can be simplified:
1. Love God
2. Love one another
3. Jesus came to us to love, to show and teach love,
4. Jesus then died for us so that we may see the light of God and returned to tell us once again God loves us.
Musicpuzzle 2 years ago
dude, Jesus isn't some hippie trying to make us all love each other. The basic message is that we are sinners, and therefore deserve God's wrath and judgement. However, Jesus took that punishment for us. Of course, any idiot can die, and so by rising from the dead, Jesus shows He has defeated death and is not just a hippy making pithy little zen statements. Yes, loving one another is a good thing, but it is the death and resurrection of Jesus that are core to Christianity.
Totfletchman415 2 years ago
Never said he was
here's one of the problems Chrisitianity faces as many people view it:
Some Christians (not all) are quick to point out the faults and weaknesses of others because they believe if confession of sins are not immediately given then eternal damnation will be certain. This turns many interested people off from the love of God. Remember: for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. The Bible talks more about love than punishment. Redemptive love is reassuring
Musicpuzzle 2 years ago
Sure, but it's important not to forget who Jesus is. In my experience, Rob Bell is very humanistic, and it becomes all about having a nice time and loving one another.
Totfletchman415 2 years ago
hmm, I think I mentioned Jesus.
Also, I've heard that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost are one (also called the Holy Trinity) so talking about God is remembering Jesus and vice versa.
Put it this way, you owe nothing except to love one another as your neighbor. If you do this then you fulfill the law of God. You can't go wrong with love. Love fulfills God's law.
I think a guy named Paul write that. Probably some hippie.
Musicpuzzle 2 years ago
Just because you say God doesn't mean you mean Jesus though... I'm sorry if that's what you meant, but not all people mean that. Have you ever studied the purpose of the Law?
Totfletchman415 2 years ago
I'm a little lost on your wording: "God doesn't mean you mean Jesus though"
could you rephrase?
and what I wrote about the law is clear "Love does no wrong to a neighbor, love is the fulfillment of the law"
have you noticed that I'm really only talking about God, Jesus, and Christianity ... not about this video?
Musicpuzzle 2 years ago
oh, it was nothing uber specific... I just meant to say that in saying 'God', someone may more specifically mean God the Father, not God as in the trinity. Sorry! i was just a little confused on wording =)
Totfletchman415 2 years ago
Jesus said the sum of the law i.e taura is to love him and your neighbor!
brianflaig1 2 years ago
talitha00cumi you sound scared
aarondustow111 2 years ago
Perhaps..?
xD
YaokiR 2 years ago
Does anyone else find it so very odd that so many people are dumping seemingly limitless amounts of energy into hating everything that Rob Bell says and does, only to see Rob respond not in defense, but by explaining how his community will continue to love the world toward Jesus?
The kind of hate that people have for Rob or Mars Hill feels so... wrong. It's not a righteous hate for something ungodly. It's something else. And it's not from Jesus.
xheathen99 2 years ago
No what I find odd, but not surprising, is that so many of Bell's devotees are so willing to toss around the hate word at someone simply for using the gift of discernment, which is commanded in scripture BTW. Bell has arrogantly tossed aside many of the church's teachings which have been considered fundamental for centuries such as the virgin birth, salvation through Christ alone etc. Pointing out those errors is not hate.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
Have you been reading some of these responses? The anti-Bell responses can be categorized as judgmental and hateful. Many people say that those who listen to Bell are going straight to hell. That's not "pointing" anything out, and discernment is generally accompanied with love. If it isn't, then you are not exercising a gift, just throwing stones.
xheathen99 2 years ago
Fair enough. Some of the responses are over the top. But I have seen it where someone simply pointing out where Bell strays from historic and apostolic Christianity is labeled narrow-minded or a hate-monger. Rarely have I seen a Bell-disciple actually be able to refute any of his criticisms. Usually they simply accuse those critical of Bell of being hateful.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
I would never call myself a Bell-disciple, nor do I go to his church. But I really resonate with much of what he says.
Take how the word for virgin in Hebrew *may* not exclusively mean someone who had not had sex, both in the new and old testament translations. So, what do you do with that? Does that remove the divinity of Christ? No virgin = no Salvation?
xheathen99 2 years ago
That is one passage. There are other passages that clearly refer to a virgin. And most scholars concede that the passage Bell refers to speaks of a virgin.
What does it say of Bell that he reduces a belief that the church has confessed as fundamental for centuries to, at best, a non-essential, based on a maybe? Does it not strike you as a little arrogant? He is essentially saying that he has more insight on this passage than the apostles and church-fathers.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
For me, no it does not. However, it's a church foundation, rooted in tradition and taught through each generation. Yet the Bible remains silent on the subject, we make a big deal about it.
Rob isn't saying that the virgin birth didn't happen, or Jesus isn't divine, or we don't have Salvation. My interpretation of what Rob is saying is that does it really matter? For someone trying to find God and is all hung up on these little details, do we really need to prove our little theologies?
xheathen99 2 years ago
I wouldn't dismiss the divinity of Christ nor the virgin brith as "little theologies." They are intrinsically a part of why it is through Christ and nobody else that we have salvation. That said, evangelism does not begin with proclaiming the virgin-birth, but neither should it begin with dismissing it. But it should eventually be taught as a fundamental. There is a reason why it is in all three of the historic ecumenical creeds.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
Ha, it seems American believers think Rob Bell is the anti-Christ and English believers think he's one of the most inspiring and helpful theologians writing today. Why is that?
mxtthxw 2 years ago
Evolving church??? Smug emerging church crap, Rob Bell you are a self-righteous antichrist. How many noomas did you sell last month? I don't think anyone in your church is old enough to even drink a beer. Stumbled on a gigantic ignorant cash cow didn't you?
decadence8014 2 years ago
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BoldAsLove8 2 years ago
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BoldAsLove8 2 years ago
People can learn so much from the heart of Mars Hill Church. That we may love and serve God & people as we're called to.
paulyliddell 2 years ago
I think it's kind of odd that 90% of Rob Bell followers are young men and boys
999sasha 2 years ago
lol good one
decadence8014 2 years ago
ROB BELL is one among many FALSE TEACHERS today. He is not Christian. He teaches unbiblical nonsense. He is leading people to Hell.
For the truth, turn to Voddie Baucham, Paul Washser, John Piper, John MacArthur, Alistair Begg, James White, White Horse Inn, Wretched Radio, Living Waters.
Walk away from this heretic. No, RUN! Your eternity depends on it.
Repent & put your faith & trust in Christ as Lord and Savior. He demands it. And read your Bible daily.
EXERCISE DISCERNMENT!
talitha00cumi 2 years ago
what the heck is he talking about. it is so distanced from church "lingo".
J0Gu7 3 years ago
that's a good thing
throneroomlush 2 years ago
Amen. Rob Bell NEVER preaches about just how sinful and wicked and corrupt mankind reallly is in his natural state. And he NEVER preaches about repentance. That is part of the gospel and he leaves it out in order not to offend people. He calls that love but its not. Where the gospel isn't preached, there is NO salvation. What Rob preaches is the opposite of love.
sKeyes89 3 years ago
Looking at the Bible in a new perspective is the same thing that atan said to Eve! He told her to look at Gods command different and we all are suffering from it! Why are you all so blind! Wake up, Read your Bibles and study Historical Theology. When you tamper with Truth your playing with the fires of hell. I feel for rob, he is going to pay big for leading many astray. I read your comments on here and see so many who think themselves saved and you know not GOD! Repent and Believe!
Holding2Truth 3 years ago 2
How can you say Historical Orthodoxy and "We believe the Bible to be the voices of many who have come before us, inspired by God to pass along their poems, stories, accounts, and letters of response and relationship with each other and the living God" in the same sentance! Why are you all so Blind! Not one Theologian in Historical Christianity would affirm and condone such perversness! This guy is a false teacher and is leading millions to Hell!
Holding2Truth 3 years ago
We affirm the central truths of historic orthodox Christian faith, seeing ourselves in a long line of generations taking part in the endless conversation between God and people. We believe the Bible to be the voices of many who have come before us, inspired by God to pass along their poems, stories, accounts, and letters of response and relationship with each other and the living God. To know where we're going, we have to know where we've been. -Rob's Theological Belief from His Web page
Holding2Truth 3 years ago
Rob Bell may preach that we should "love" people. But he doesn't know what the word love means as it is defined in the Bible. His message is one designed to please people instead of truly loving them. You will never hear him preach the true gospel. He will never preach Romans 1:18-32 or 3:9-20 and how people are evil by nature and by nature they are children of wrath. He doesn't preach this because it is offensive to people. Well I have news, the gospel IS offensive, so that people will repent.
sKeyes89 3 years ago