@Shikamura012 I agree with you, people should just like whatever couple they want, no need to start a whole war between Kuro/Fai or Chi/Fai if people can't decide who to choose between the two of them then just like both of them simple as that.
did something happen to the site! I was not able to get on it today,please if you ever don't want to work on the site anymore do not trash it. You could always give it to me and the other dedicated peoples to maintain.I wll even finish it if you want.I really love your site,It had amazing info and I go to it almost every day.
Faeverily don´t change the wording of your website.
TheoRain did point out his/her opinion and her arguments aren´t that bad. I understand why TheoRain has been discussing this with us, but if you don´t share his/her opinion, then there is no need to change the website. I like it a lot, the other members like it a lot and if outsiders don´t like it, then they should make their own website. I don´t think that we have crossed a line with this website. But that´s just my opinion.
No matter how many changes we make, we will always end up offending or not meeting the standards of some people. This isn't a matter of "try to please everyone", because you can't. It's impossible to please everyone.
@moonstartrigger: TheoRain is asking me to change the wording of the entire website. I do not see why I would have to, because it would take away several hours of my time, and especially seeing as how absolutely no KuroTomo or FaiChii fans have expressed any sort of discomfort with it.
Have you even read the whole month's worth of the argument that has been going on? If you haven't, please don't try to act all high-and-mighty. Also, you have no right to declare who is right and wrong when there IS no right and wrong, especially when the matter at hand is about a literary work which can be fully and freely interpreted in uniquely different ways.
I am not raging at her. I just said that she has no right to decide who is right or who is wrong, especially when she has not read the entire argument. I assume this since she has not "pulled any points" from it and used any portions of it as examples.
If she isn't trying to argue a point, then why is she spamming up the comments section talking about duct tape and having side-conversations with you when she can do it on your YouTube profile?
Well I screwed that first one up oh well here we go again
So you arent even going to try?
Im not sure if I should say anything about this and forgive me Theolen if you think other wise but this has to end
Faeverily Theolen is here trying to prevent a problem and I dont think its out of the reason that you are wrong I think its more out of concern for you
Knowing Theolen the only reason she is probably still around is because you keep arguing back. Shes more on defense than offense here.
If you don't care, why do you constantly check our website and then send me a message telling me to "stop talking behind your back"? How could I possibly be talking behind your back when I clearly know you have access to that website? I created a page dedicated to suit your very demands, so don't send me messages laced with entirely hostile feelings. "Remember, I'm not too far away"? I mean, seriously?
Many are quiet and I have made a point to people they can feel free to came against me if they wish but this is a matter between me and you
I have my people I have consulted with and I trust them to catch me in the wrong and they really would tell me if I were being too cynical or too critical
My true perspective is much too harsh for me to work with and still have appeal in what I'm saying
Are you saying that I haven't consulted people to see this as well? In every single matter, people will disagree about certain things. Just because some people are not happy with what I'm doing does not, in any way, mean that I'm wrong in my actions.
Faeverily, how far are you with part 3 of your "Why I support KuroFai" video? If you need any ideas, maybe we could help, for example making a new thread on your website. I´m just curious because I would love to see part 3. Anyway, I still think that your website is awesome.
And I didn´t argue that they were wrong, I just said that I don´t share their opinion. There is a difference. And I can still discuss about the possibilty of a suggestion being an intended fact. Doesn´t mean that I´m right. Anyway: I have to go to bed now. Have a nice day and good night. See you next time.
Just because we state something does not mean that it's solid fact, it's just what we consider as fact from our point of view. Whether the audience chooses to perceive it as fact or not is up to them. People CAN tell the difference from fact and opinion.
Ok, so I´m against their opinion, but this doesn´t change the fact that I accept it, meaning that I aknowledge it´s existence, meaning that I don´t personally hate the person who is against my opinion. As long as we don´t start hurting each other for having different opinions, there is nothing wrong with it. That being said you can continue arguing, I will be against it, but this doesn´t mean that I personally hate you or don´t accept the existance of your opinion.
What are you saying? I don't hate you or any of the other people who have different opinions. The fact that I reply means that I acknowledge your opinion and its existence.
My arguement is not very opinionated (emotions tend to show through at points but so have yours and nobody can perfectly master the state of not throwing emotion into the mix. Plus you have more tendency to argue the logic in your facts than the actual point at hand) and more focused on logic and you reply because you want to defend your own not because you are akowledging mine which arent opions just valid concerns
What am I accomplishing? For one, I'm making a community where people who share the same interest can talk to each other. I'm also gathering all the notable opinions of people I know and storing them in one place, so if the original topics are deleted, we still have them on hand. I'm also providing people with fanfictions and doujinshis for them to read in free time. The site is also a video-sharing, fan-art and cosplaying sharing website. I do this mostly for fun and for others' entertainment.
You just need to make a site and spreed word about it among areas where you can find kurofai fans
Though youtube is one but you can also find the other side here as well
You can make a video for a site like you did here however the whole other videos is unnecessary with the arguements that hold invalid facts and offensive to other pairing fans in the way you argue
It would be better if you moved your videos to your site where it is generally Kurofai fans and it stays out of the view of people who dont like it and it is less of an offense that can be found on a well known site known as youtube
Or change how you presented them either way there is a better way of going about doing it
If people don't like the videos, they don't have to watch it. There are MILLIONS of videos on YouTube that can offend various groups of people. People can get offended by practically anything. What about the KuroFai AMVs? How are those 'offenses'? Just because there happen to be people against the pairing?
No but you give the gun to the guy next to you and its loaded with bullets. A figure of speech of course. If they dont want to watch it still can get spilled over in other places. Things unfortunatly do not stay in one specific area. Your invalid facts look real when they are suggestions.
Sorry, but all of the information on the site has been on the Internet for a long time already, before the creation of the website. Unless you want to go out to every single one of those websites that I gathered information from and request them to take down every single post, the information is still going to be there whether you like it or not, and you'll have to get into arguments with 30+ people. Things have never stayed in one specific area.
The most conflict? I have yet to see any conflict. The KuroTomo, FaiChii, and FaiSaku fans appear to be very silent on this matter. I haven't even heard one single outcry. Like I said, all of the websites I gathered info from have been up for quite a long time, and most KuroFai supporters already KNOW the majority of info on the site, even though they haven't visited it.
There will be avid shipping in the majority of all manga and anime series whether you like it or not. I don't cover my suggestions as facts. People know the difference between fact and opinion. End of story.
Actually, I'm not the source. The source is the 30+ posts out there that hundreds of people have already read. They're spreading the information all over MangaFox forums at this very moment, not to mention CLAMP in ForumLand and various other sites. I only pulled information from those original posts.
Be polite, show full understanding of the other side, do not present suggestions as facts, before acting upon something re-look at why you are doing it following the human nature law, watch for wording, etc.
True they can but when you argue and present in the way you did the offense is intentional. An unitentional offense is quite different from a intentional one.
Polite? How am I not polite? If I wasn't polite, I would trash other pairings and wouldn't even listen to other people's opinions. Several KuroFai fans have praised me for being understanding of other fandoms, and have said that their fellow shippers act quite the opposite.
There is a difference in a video presenting an arguement than a video providing entertainment. Your arguement is directed at other pairings and under invalid facts. The AMVs are directed to the fans of the pairing. They arent arguing against other people they are directed towards the actual fans
The people who comment are pretty much all KuroFai people. The people who rate are nearly all KuroFai people (look at the 5 star ratings of the videos). The people who subscribe are all KuroFai people.
I said that KuroTomo fans haven't EXPRESSED discomfort. That is entirely different from CAUSING discomfort, in which the "data" is lacking also. How could we know that discomfort has been caused when it has not been expressed? If you're unhappy with a product you've purchased, or a website you've seen on the Internet, you complain. The fact that I've not recieved complaints from the opposite party means that there's no need to change my words. Simple as that.
If they don't even say anything, too bad. Even in the people who tend to avoid problems, if you see something that truly upsets you, you at least say something about it. It's in human nature.
Its varies a person type but then you have the neutral party
I refuse to dig into my personal perspective
Mine is far less forgiving and much more harsh than the one I present to you here
It is possibly to reach perspective of a neutral party this is what lawyers have to do they cant argue a point from their own perspective because it would interfere with their job
This is for the KuroFai fans. In fact, a few fans have even messaged me saying that they used to doubt the couple a little, but now they either like or are more convinced that they are in love. It's like putting up a list of reasons as to why I, and a number of other people, think they share a beautiful relationship and that they deserve more recognition and admiration as a couple.
As for the FaiChii and the KuroTomo fans, they can choose to watch whatever they like.
In a formal debate, you directly confront the opposing side and state your reasons. However, for this website, the opposing side can choose whether to even look at the reasons in the first place. That's a huge difference, you know.
I'm not even arguing my points to them. The title is "Why I Support KuroFai". They're my reasons on why they're such a beautiful couple. You can accept that two people are in love with each other without supporting it. On the other hand, supporting a couple is actually admiring their relationship.
Tell me, what percentage of shipping is not in argument format? You can't reform the entire Internet, whether you like it or not. Our job is to retain the original posts. If we quote from people, we must not alter or change any of their original words.
My intentions at first were to put my thoughts into words somewhere on the internet where fellow KuroFai fans could see them. I realized that the video descriptions of videos on YouTube do not allow a lot of space and tend to be a bit messy, so I then put them all on one page in a website.
They're not just my thoughts. A large portion of that is other people's thoughts. Besides, a large majority of the members on there are from the Tsubasa MangaFox forum, and they've all seen the "thoughts" a long time beforehand, maybe even a year from now. I just gathered them all in one place. These "thoughts" are already on the internet here and there, just google and look for them. They've all been posted up and viewed by hundreds of people before I made this website.
The balance lies within having an own opinion, defending it, but still tolerating other opinions.
And of course we don´t ultimately consider the implications towardsKuroganexFay as a given fact. We just conclude for ourselves, that they are canon. This does not mean that we are 100% sure that they are. It´s just that we believe they are. Believing does imply suggesting and not knowing the truth.
Balance is when a person tolerates people right to opinions, keeps their own, but does not state it outloud, instead follows logic to avoid the things that people mess up at
Ok, now I got it. You critisized, that Faeverily says that she accepts the other pairings but still argues against them. But isn´t that the very fundament of having an opinion? It does include that one is biased. Arguing in favour of something does sometimes mean that you are arguing against something else, because some things are mutually exclusive. But this doesn´t mean that you don´t tolerate the opinion of others.
If you plan to be public about your opinions and be wide range on them such as TV, Interentet, etc then you cannot say you accept others when you are in the mist of arguing them. You can favor one more but being public about them then saying you are personally against them does not present well
Mostly due to the fact you if you argue a point you are usually against it
I dont tolerate opinions when they are suggestions used as facts
I'm an active member on your site, Faeverily! *this is Soratora321* But this... I don't think I can ignore anymore...
114 comments out of 195 all by the same person! TheoRain, I agree with what Xellotath03 said, please do us the favor of summing up what you're trying to say instead of flooding your words with fluff. Conciseness is the key in getting an idea across. Also remember we're talking about a piece of visual literature here, not world history.
Oh and having read your last 100 or something comments: could you do me the favour and sum up what your actual point in this discussion was and leave out all the other elaborate, but superfluous side remarks? Because about 80% of what you are saying is nothing more but hot air.
What I meant with this saying is, that you act like a hypocrite.
"I do not sit in a glass house that lies upon the hill I sit in the one made of red brick. The person upon the hill uses the sun to reflect their own intrests from their glass house only one is doing that here"
...Ok, I´m trying to make sense of that one now: I use the "Sun" to reflect my own interest and you sit in a house made of red brick...I´m sorry, but could you please explain to me again what you meant with this?
Come rushing to thous defence will not cover up that fact that lays at hand. None of this would have happened if she had listend to my friendly advice
The yin/yang symbolism, the phoenix/dragon symbolism, and Fai wearing a furisode are all FACTS. However, it is up to the audience on how to interpret those facts, and when I say how I interpret the symbolism, that is an opinion.
That's the problem. This isn't a debate about an issue like abortion or capital punishment, where you can only support one side. This is a pairing argument. There are people who are accepting of BOTH the possibilities of KuroFai and KuroTomo.
Im just saying your logic is not accurate with what you state and how you present it comes out all wrong in the sense that it takes the cover as a fact
You wanted to argue the how it was accurate now you are coming back telling me it was opinion not fact
Im not telling you to get rid of your opinion im saying change how you went about this whole thing
My point is you have to change how you went about/ presentation/ statements/ you need to be able to understand that not everybody sees everything you write as acceptable. You need to be careful with how you write sentences and keep the attitude that you are not arguing when you write you descriptions for your videos.
Symbolism only leaves you room to apply suggestions rather than facts
How to interpret facts well that's very hard in any general situation you can use facts for any given arguement but interpreting them is something that cannot be done. They are what they are. You can use them how you please which can directly change how much of a fact they stand in whichever situation you use them in. In this case you changed the value
Also did you know that you can support both sides on anything
In most debate topics both sides have valid points backed up by facts
In some debates a new solution can be formed that satisfies both sides to some degree though its a give and take thing usually. Both sides need to meet in the middle usually
Yes. You just said it's possible to support both sides. So isn't it possible to support only one side, but be willing to listen to the opinions of people on the other side?
I was arguing that its possible in major topics over abortion, gay rights, etc. You can support both sides. Those people tend to actually really support both sides or want equal balance between the two. Its not quite the same to by heart support both sides compared to technically support one side and listen to the other and thats good however your flaw in the second one is you claim to support both and listen but your actions state other wise
I am where my personal opinion on the matter between the pairings cannot be seen and be replaced with logic and reasoning to do what is needed to handle the problem
She sits in the house where she argues a case against other pairings logic then says she supports all pairings right to support what they want and under all of this she uses suggestions as facts and all this is reflected in what she does and says.
A hypocrite is a person who does something against what they say
Im not against my fact that she has no right to be against the pairings with the impression she has facts when she has suggestions. She can be against them but has no room to argue against for the flaws in her own logic remain
You say that you don't believe in anything unless there are solid facts and statistics supporting it, yet you like KuroFai. Isn't that doing something that's against what you say?
Thats how a debates are needed to be argued for the most part for what I do
I have to throw aside any personal opinions on the broad topic and look at what is true and what isn't no matter what my personal opinion is on the matter
Its effective in arguements too. I need improvement on maintaining it better but there isn't a soul out there that doesnt have room from improvement on doing so
TheoRain I hope you realize that you started to loose yourself in a rant for quite some time now. You accuse others of heating up old arguments and acting abrasive, but please take a look at the last twenty comments and count the ones that were written by yourself and while you are at it, look at the way you are wording your opinion. The way you are presenting yourself makes you seem like someone, who has an anger managment problem. "Who sits in a glass house should not throw stones."
I give up my right to avoid conflict in the whole process
Martin luther who helped bring about the protest reformation in Europe was doing what was right but went down in the process and later most relized him to be right
I do not sit in a glass house that lies upon the hill I sit in the one made of red brick. The person upon the hill uses the sun to reflect their own intrests from their glass house only one is doing that here
First you bring up Jews, then you bring up Germany, then you bring up Martin Luther and Europe and reformation. I don't see why you have to go to so much trouble to defend your case against an implied relationship between two male characters in a manga.
Jews only came into this discussion through a German doctor called Mengele who did things which you would have to go back to one of my further comments to see how.
Why not? Why do you do the same? Why anything?
Curious are you thinking of the same Martin Luther I am. You know the one who criticized the Catholic Church in Europe. Also do you see my reasoning behind using him in this arguement?
Just questions of curiosity nothing else I assure you
I accuse her of inaccurate presentation of suggestions as facts and her having no right with such to try to prove other pairings wrong under such conditions and therefor provoking arguement and as such I must sacrifice my right to avoid conflict to destroy conflict
Lawyers have to argue for other people when they are not directly at fault for what happened sacrifice for not only a pay check but something more
"Using hard facts, statistics and rationality as one's fundament for the line of argumentation which is supposed to disprove an interpretation of a manga (whose very own fundament is symbolism and rhetoric devices) is totally the way to go. Before TheoRain, I never heard of someone who uses statistics to disprove symbolism. If people use statistics to disprove literary devices, why do Critical Theory classes exist in the first place?"
Theory is what we use before we reach any conclusion. We need to form theory however in the end we need to back them as well or they remain suggestions or incorrect theories
@Shikamura012 I agree with you, people should just like whatever couple they want, no need to start a whole war between Kuro/Fai or Chi/Fai if people can't decide who to choose between the two of them then just like both of them simple as that.
ShunxFabia4ever 3 months ago
i didnt know that was ur website i'm a member and i totally admire the site :P
101honeycake 4 months ago
Are you ever going to make part 3?
pinkeevee1995 11 months ago
did something happen to the site! I was not able to get on it today,please if you ever don't want to work on the site anymore do not trash it. You could always give it to me and the other dedicated peoples to maintain.I wll even finish it if you want.I really love your site,It had amazing info and I go to it almost every day.
pinkeevee1995 1 year ago
My god, someone's obsessed 6.6
zeldafan10101 1 year ago
That part made me giggle "O_O" XD
I love Fai.. I love Fai with Kuro. I love .. Okay yeah. I'll go to your site. XD
AchaiaDustt 1 year ago
it is 25 of april 2010 now and i still cant find it!
menono1011 1 year ago
Heeheee! I signed up for this website! *as you know...or do you?! D: I think you do, but...* IT RULEZ.
MidnightFlower13 2 years ago
OMG!! there's a war in the comments...
people should just stick with what they like... there's no ending in this
shikamaru012 2 years ago
Well I'll get back to you when you understand everything thats going on here
TheoRain 2 years ago
Comment removed
samfan132 2 years ago
Comment removed
samfan132 2 years ago
Besides Im willing to help rewrite statements if time is the problem
TheoRain 2 years ago
Faeverily don´t change the wording of your website.
TheoRain did point out his/her opinion and her arguments aren´t that bad. I understand why TheoRain has been discussing this with us, but if you don´t share his/her opinion, then there is no need to change the website. I like it a lot, the other members like it a lot and if outsiders don´t like it, then they should make their own website. I don´t think that we have crossed a line with this website. But that´s just my opinion.
Xellotath03 2 years ago 2
Im being practical that the wording is not in the best set up
Tell me a reason why improvements can not be made and why it not better to be safe than sorry
TheoRain 2 years ago
And its not of my opinion Ive talked to multiple people over the matter and have shown them the formatting myself
I would not argue a point in which I did not consult with other people at some point throughout the whole thing
TheoRain 2 years ago
No matter how many changes we make, we will always end up offending or not meeting the standards of some people. This isn't a matter of "try to please everyone", because you can't. It's impossible to please everyone.
Faeverily 2 years ago
But if we can make it much less offending than it is now is that not for the better
Its not really that hard to rewrite statements
I have to change my cases I write for debate sometimes over 10times before it can be acceptable
If anything can be made to please far more people is for the better
Why is it so hard?
Its not like Im asking you to jump off a cliff
TheoRain 2 years ago
Theolen: Ducktape solves everything jk XD
Faeverly: Do you mind listening to me for a sec?
Is it unreasonable to change the way you have your descriptions written?
moonstartrigger 2 years ago
Ducktape is mans best friend!
TheoRain 2 years ago
Comment removed
moonstartrigger 2 years ago
@moonstartrigger: TheoRain is asking me to change the wording of the entire website. I do not see why I would have to, because it would take away several hours of my time, and especially seeing as how absolutely no KuroTomo or FaiChii fans have expressed any sort of discomfort with it.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Did it occure to you that Im fully prepared to help in editing?
TheoRain 2 years ago
Theolen: Are you sure your not a workaholic? XD
moonstartrigger 2 years ago
Moon I dont know
TheoRain 2 years ago
Oh and Theolen ignore flarebacks
You dont need to try to help everybody who messes up
moonstartrigger 2 years ago
Have you even read the whole month's worth of the argument that has been going on? If you haven't, please don't try to act all high-and-mighty. Also, you have no right to declare who is right and wrong when there IS no right and wrong, especially when the matter at hand is about a literary work which can be fully and freely interpreted in uniquely different ways.
Faeverily 2 years ago
I have no clue why you are raging at Moon
Ive only seen atttempts to sooth this
TheoRain 2 years ago
I dont care c:
I have ductape~
lol joking
moonstartrigger 2 years ago
I am not raging at her. I just said that she has no right to decide who is right or who is wrong, especially when she has not read the entire argument. I assume this since she has not "pulled any points" from it and used any portions of it as examples.
Faeverily 2 years ago
I know Moon in person I think I would know if she read it all since she can confront me on the matter
She isnt trying to argue a point
TheoRain 2 years ago
If she isn't trying to argue a point, then why is she spamming up the comments section talking about duct tape and having side-conversations with you when she can do it on your YouTube profile?
Faeverily 2 years ago
She does comment on my youtube profile/messages/ etc.
Why would she not be talking to me while im here?
She hasnt really said anything that far out of whats happening here
Even the duct tape relates to this in a strange funny way XD
TheoRain 2 years ago
Ive been here all along
I havent said anything till now
I didnt say anybody was wrong or right
Do you want the arguing to end? :D
moonstartrigger 2 years ago
Sometimes if we mess up we have to work really hard to go back and fix it
moonstartrigger 2 years ago
We haven't messed up. Just because two people complain, we're not going to pleasure them by changing the entire website. It's a waste of time.
Faeverily 2 years ago
If you plan to make something you must plan to work with it
If you plan to make a site you must plan to change it to some degree
The first outcome of a site is never the final product
Sites are always changing
If you don't plan to work then don't make
I would not be the only one to find a problem with and most certainly will not be the last
A waste of time is when you truly are doing something with little significance
To avoid the most conflict by all means has value
TheoRain 2 years ago
There has been no conflict. Except for you, that is.
I will not change my website just because people demand that changes be made.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Then you do not listen to anybody
My first post was advice
Take it however you may but in the end I know what is and isnt
TheoRain 2 years ago
And the only reason I'm still around is true by Moons words
I'm all for residing under the circumstances of better levels
You wont meet me in the middle
TheoRain 2 years ago
Comment removed
moonstartrigger 2 years ago
Well I screwed that first one up oh well here we go again
So you arent even going to try?
Im not sure if I should say anything about this and forgive me Theolen if you think other wise but this has to end
Faeverily Theolen is here trying to prevent a problem and I dont think its out of the reason that you are wrong I think its more out of concern for you
Knowing Theolen the only reason she is probably still around is because you keep arguing back. Shes more on defense than offense here.
moonstartrigger 2 years ago
No problems need to be prevented.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Why?
TheoRain 2 years ago
Honestly Moon I don't care
TheoRain 2 years ago
Okay good
I wasnt sure
moonstartrigger 2 years ago
If you don't care, why do you constantly check our website and then send me a message telling me to "stop talking behind your back"? How could I possibly be talking behind your back when I clearly know you have access to that website? I created a page dedicated to suit your very demands, so don't send me messages laced with entirely hostile feelings. "Remember, I'm not too far away"? I mean, seriously?
Faeverily 2 years ago
I didnt check on anything for weeks cause I really dont care.
Ive been busy and only recently decided to check my email.
Thats how I laced back to the site
I was curious and bored.
You didnt. You left my view point in a ditch basicly there
TheoRain 2 years ago
You can always state your viewpoint in the C-Box. You only said 6 words "You should directly talk to me", not even bothering to elaborate.
Faeverily 2 years ago
For me to act on that is of disrespect to my opponet would you not agree
Besides I rather have my views stated clearly somewhere thats not a chat box
What do you need me to elaborate on?
TheoRain 2 years ago
And from what ive heard from her she doesnt really care in the end what you do Is what I think
If an apology where offered for attacking back then Im sure Theolen will give you one back for tearing you down here in the open.
Im sorry Theolen but im not standing by anymore
moonstartrigger 2 years ago
No apology need be offered. I did nothing wrong in saying what I feel about a relationship between two fictional male characters.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Saying isnt the same as arguing
TheoRain 2 years ago
**sigh
faeverily becomes defensive when it somes to kurofai... this isn't just the first time...
anyway... supportkurofai.webs~!!!! I joined it~!!!!
shikamaru012 2 years ago
Yes, I'm pretty defensive. I never back down in arguments (:
Thanks for joining the site. Hope you have a great time on it~
Faeverily 2 years ago
Stubbornness blinds a person
I would hope by all means when a building is on fire you would stop to get out XD
TheoRain 2 years ago
Comment removed
Xellotath03 2 years ago
How is my website a building on fire? More than 3,000 unique people have visited it and there has been no trouble at all.
Faeverily 2 years ago
How many have joined out of the visits?
But of course the site is fairly new I wouldnt expect to see too much problems till a certain point
If every problem where in the open then a lot of problems possibly would not exist and much easier to fix in modern society.
Just a because a problem cant be seen doesnt mean its not there
TheoRain 2 years ago
If I'm stubborn and never back down in arguments, you are too. Just look at the last 100+ comments.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Stubbornness is good when used in the right way
I'm already waiting at the line in the middle
and have been but Ive heard no say in the matter of negotiating with me
TheoRain 2 years ago
How are you right in your actions? That's entirely from your perspective. Many people may think that you are wrong in your actions.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Who are these many people?
I see only some of the youtube people
Many are quiet and I have made a point to people they can feel free to came against me if they wish but this is a matter between me and you
I have my people I have consulted with and I trust them to catch me in the wrong and they really would tell me if I were being too cynical or too critical
My true perspective is much too harsh for me to work with and still have appeal in what I'm saying
TheoRain 2 years ago
Are you saying that I haven't consulted people to see this as well? In every single matter, people will disagree about certain things. Just because some people are not happy with what I'm doing does not, in any way, mean that I'm wrong in my actions.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Not at all
I'm saying I trust my sources
Why do you think you have right to argue a point when you yourself say its a book that people can interpret anyway themselves
You go against what you say
Don't say its your right to have an opinion as true as that may be expressing it is different
I don't see why either party should be allowed to interfere with the other if its open to have any opinion one wants on the matter
TheoRain 2 years ago
I´d like to change the topic for once.
Faeverily, how far are you with part 3 of your "Why I support KuroFai" video? If you need any ideas, maybe we could help, for example making a new thread on your website. I´m just curious because I would love to see part 3. Anyway, I still think that your website is awesome.
Xellotath03 2 years ago
Thanks. I'm pretty sure I'll be done with part 3 by the end of this month.
Faeverily 2 years ago
And I didn´t argue that they were wrong, I just said that I don´t share their opinion. There is a difference. And I can still discuss about the possibilty of a suggestion being an intended fact. Doesn´t mean that I´m right. Anyway: I have to go to bed now. Have a nice day and good night. See you next time.
Xellotath03 2 years ago
Also if she wants to discuss it as being a suggestion again isn't bad
However do not present what arent facts as facts state them for what they are suggestions is my point
TheoRain 2 years ago
Just because we state something does not mean that it's solid fact, it's just what we consider as fact from our point of view. Whether the audience chooses to perceive it as fact or not is up to them. People CAN tell the difference from fact and opinion.
Faeverily 2 years ago
If that was true then why do you argue with me and in your case if though your info is a fact
And no you can not be certain on that
I know very well that not all people dig too deep into something and just think of what other people consider fact as as a fact when it isnt
It premotes the same things that causes some the problems we see today
TheoRain 2 years ago
The very fact that the site is named "Why We Ship KuroFai" shows people that this is our opinion.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Yeah the site does but you made a point where that if anybody of other pairings had other points you put it up on it
But with what you just said does that suggest the opposite?
TheoRain 2 years ago
How does it suggest the opposite?
Faeverily 2 years ago
Ok, so I´m against their opinion, but this doesn´t change the fact that I accept it, meaning that I aknowledge it´s existence, meaning that I don´t personally hate the person who is against my opinion. As long as we don´t start hurting each other for having different opinions, there is nothing wrong with it. That being said you can continue arguing, I will be against it, but this doesn´t mean that I personally hate you or don´t accept the existance of your opinion.
Xellotath03 2 years ago
Im not against their opinion but how they present it and their actions they follow with it
TheoRain 2 years ago
That still doesnt make sense. Its unproductive. Human nature is to get something out of what they do
Some adults may have the common sense you speak of but that is not what is happening in this case
The way she writes her case doesnt say what you are saying
TheoRain 2 years ago
What are you saying? I don't hate you or any of the other people who have different opinions. The fact that I reply means that I acknowledge your opinion and its existence.
Faeverily 2 years ago
No you dont thats not what im suggesting at all
My arguement is not very opinionated (emotions tend to show through at points but so have yours and nobody can perfectly master the state of not throwing emotion into the mix. Plus you have more tendency to argue the logic in your facts than the actual point at hand) and more focused on logic and you reply because you want to defend your own not because you are akowledging mine which arent opions just valid concerns
TheoRain 2 years ago
(well they were at first concerns towards what you were doing but you wanted to pull more deep into this)
Answer me this what are you accomplishing by making these videos
TheoRain 2 years ago
What am I accomplishing? For one, I'm making a community where people who share the same interest can talk to each other. I'm also gathering all the notable opinions of people I know and storing them in one place, so if the original topics are deleted, we still have them on hand. I'm also providing people with fanfictions and doujinshis for them to read in free time. The site is also a video-sharing, fan-art and cosplaying sharing website. I do this mostly for fun and for others' entertainment.
Faeverily 2 years ago
You dont need to argue a point to accomplish that
You just need to make a site and spreed word about it among areas where you can find kurofai fans
Though youtube is one but you can also find the other side here as well
You can make a video for a site like you did here however the whole other videos is unnecessary with the arguements that hold invalid facts and offensive to other pairing fans in the way you argue
What is the point in those other videos?
TheoRain 2 years ago
It would be better if you moved your videos to your site where it is generally Kurofai fans and it stays out of the view of people who dont like it and it is less of an offense that can be found on a well known site known as youtube
Or change how you presented them either way there is a better way of going about doing it
TheoRain 2 years ago
If people don't like the videos, they don't have to watch it. There are MILLIONS of videos on YouTube that can offend various groups of people. People can get offended by practically anything. What about the KuroFai AMVs? How are those 'offenses'? Just because there happen to be people against the pairing?
Faeverily 2 years ago
No but you give the gun to the guy next to you and its loaded with bullets. A figure of speech of course. If they dont want to watch it still can get spilled over in other places. Things unfortunatly do not stay in one specific area. Your invalid facts look real when they are suggestions.
TheoRain 2 years ago
Sorry, but all of the information on the site has been on the Internet for a long time already, before the creation of the website. Unless you want to go out to every single one of those websites that I gathered information from and request them to take down every single post, the information is still going to be there whether you like it or not, and you'll have to get into arguments with 30+ people. Things have never stayed in one specific area.
Faeverily 2 years ago
I already knew that
I handle them as I see them and depending of how it weighs upon the scale
You copied part of one of my statements I see
You have excessive invalid facts and since its all in one place and a popular site none the less
Its ability to spread and where is inhanced
That info doesnt defend how you presented it
TheoRain 2 years ago
You must acknowledge the fact you cannot control every person who watches this video and what they do with the information given to them
To avoid the most conflict eliminate the source of the problem
Though in this case your not only are a source but a source that can create problems directly
TheoRain 2 years ago
The most conflict? I have yet to see any conflict. The KuroTomo, FaiChii, and FaiSaku fans appear to be very silent on this matter. I haven't even heard one single outcry. Like I said, all of the websites I gathered info from have been up for quite a long time, and most KuroFai supporters already KNOW the majority of info on the site, even though they haven't visited it.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Yes "to avoid the most conflict" just to keep my orginal statement in tact
You cover your suggestions as facts when something seems real most dont oppose it they remain silent on the matter
Some may see your flaws already but choose to remain quiet
Just because its quiet it doesnt make your actions and presentation right
TheoRain 2 years ago
There will be avid shipping in the majority of all manga and anime series whether you like it or not. I don't cover my suggestions as facts. People know the difference between fact and opinion. End of story.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Yes but the rights of both parties remain on the same level
But you do. You call your suggestions as fact. You miss-linked them or are covering them.
I beg to differ
Ive seen people express opinions based off of what they like to call fact
TheoRain 2 years ago
I say that my suggestions are fact to me. Whether other people like to interpret them is fact is entirely their decision.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Yes but you would be the source
The problem would be traced back to you
You gave it to them in the end
TheoRain 2 years ago
Actually, I'm not the source. The source is the 30+ posts out there that hundreds of people have already read. They're spreading the information all over MangaFox forums at this very moment, not to mention CLAMP in ForumLand and various other sites. I only pulled information from those original posts.
Faeverily 2 years ago
A source not the only source
You become the main source when you pile all of the smaller ones in one place
TheoRain 2 years ago
There is a way to not be offensive
Be polite, show full understanding of the other side, do not present suggestions as facts, before acting upon something re-look at why you are doing it following the human nature law, watch for wording, etc.
True they can but when you argue and present in the way you did the offense is intentional. An unitentional offense is quite different from a intentional one.
TheoRain 2 years ago
Polite? How am I not polite? If I wasn't polite, I would trash other pairings and wouldn't even listen to other people's opinions. Several KuroFai fans have praised me for being understanding of other fandoms, and have said that their fellow shippers act quite the opposite.
Faeverily 2 years ago
There is a difference in a video presenting an arguement than a video providing entertainment. Your arguement is directed at other pairings and under invalid facts. The AMVs are directed to the fans of the pairing. They arent arguing against other people they are directed towards the actual fans
TheoRain 2 years ago
I'm sorry, but a jaw-dropping majority of the comments, ratings, subcriptions, and viewers of my videos are of the KuroFai fandom.
Faeverily 2 years ago
How many of the over 4,000 people who see these videos are a part of that group?
TheoRain 2 years ago
And I dont mean the Kurofai group
I mean the people who comment/ rate/ and suscribe.
TheoRain 2 years ago
The people who comment are pretty much all KuroFai people. The people who rate are nearly all KuroFai people (look at the 5 star ratings of the videos). The people who subscribe are all KuroFai people.
Faeverily 2 years ago
So now we can put forth the act that the people who like this share the same opinion if we follow what you just told me
So its inaccurate to say that people of the opposite party are in agreement to your actions when most have not seen them
So you cannot say that you dont cause discomfort to the opposite party when the data is lacking
The fact they are not in the data as often then tells me they are ignoring you or have not seen it. The second probably more so true than the first.
TheoRain 2 years ago
I said that KuroTomo fans haven't EXPRESSED discomfort. That is entirely different from CAUSING discomfort, in which the "data" is lacking also. How could we know that discomfort has been caused when it has not been expressed? If you're unhappy with a product you've purchased, or a website you've seen on the Internet, you complain. The fact that I've not recieved complaints from the opposite party means that there's no need to change my words. Simple as that.
Faeverily 2 years ago
So you don't know if you are truly are causing it if it is not expressed
So you cant argue to me that you aren't if you are not sure again following what you say
Not everybody makes complaints when they find something wrong.
Some wait till they can do nothing to try to solve the problem
TheoRain 2 years ago
If they don't even say anything, too bad. Even in the people who tend to avoid problems, if you see something that truly upsets you, you at least say something about it. It's in human nature.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Human nature is a law that varies by the person
You have you majority who a grouped in one section which most of us which we pull patterns from
Then we have the ones who dont follow the big pattern
And not to mention the ones who dont follow a logical human nature law period
TheoRain 2 years ago
So with this data lack you cannot tell me that your actions are in the right
The percentage would be way off. We would need equal measurements of both parties to get accurate data on true expression.
Of course this is only following what you tell me
TheoRain 2 years ago
People's actions are in the right or in the wrong depending on the perspective of different types of people.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Its varies a person type but then you have the neutral party
I refuse to dig into my personal perspective
Mine is far less forgiving and much more harsh than the one I present to you here
It is possibly to reach perspective of a neutral party this is what lawyers have to do they cant argue a point from their own perspective because it would interfere with their job
TheoRain 2 years ago
You aren't even on the opposite party. Please don't speak for them.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Then you are unaware
I just favor one more than the other
TheoRain 2 years ago
If you truly are targeting the just kurofai people
Why are you arguing your points to them of which who already support the pairing
Again the advertisement doesnt come clear and wasn't one till you made this video and made that site
TheoRain 2 years ago
This is for the KuroFai fans. In fact, a few fans have even messaged me saying that they used to doubt the couple a little, but now they either like or are more convinced that they are in love. It's like putting up a list of reasons as to why I, and a number of other people, think they share a beautiful relationship and that they deserve more recognition and admiration as a couple.
As for the FaiChii and the KuroTomo fans, they can choose to watch whatever they like.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Looking at the few is ignoring the majority and other minorities.
Only looking at the positive affects does not change the matter at hand
The list is in arguement format
Directed towards other pairings logic
You should change the format and change the invalid facts to suggestions
To state your opinions is different than arguing them
Arguements are directed to the opposing side
A speech is directed to anybody who wants to listen
TheoRain 2 years ago
In a formal debate, you directly confront the opposing side and state your reasons. However, for this website, the opposing side can choose whether to even look at the reasons in the first place. That's a huge difference, you know.
Faeverily 2 years ago
I did not confront you in such manner
I gave advice and you turned it into an arguement.
I dont oppose your side I oppose your actions
The difference here is you turned into something
TheoRain 2 years ago
*turned it into
TheoRain 2 years ago
I'm not even arguing my points to them. The title is "Why I Support KuroFai". They're my reasons on why they're such a beautiful couple. You can accept that two people are in love with each other without supporting it. On the other hand, supporting a couple is actually admiring their relationship.
Faeverily 2 years ago
But its in argument format
The reasons are not as too why they are a beautiful couple but why they are they more logically couple
TheoRain 2 years ago
Tell me, what percentage of shipping is not in argument format? You can't reform the entire Internet, whether you like it or not. Our job is to retain the original posts. If we quote from people, we must not alter or change any of their original words.
Faeverily 2 years ago
The relevance in that does not line with what I'm saying.
Format change is not very hard
It can be changed sometimes by only a wording change
You can list sources
It allows word change and you still credit the orginal person
Its more affective than just quoting
TheoRain 2 years ago
Like I said before, I am not going to waste my time changing something that people will always be unhappy with, regardless of the wording format.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Thats not a good reason
People are always going to be unhappy with something but if theres a way to make less people displeased then why not?
TheoRain 2 years ago
You made why I support kurofai videos before you had the thought of a site
How do explain your reasoning for those videos before this came along
What you have now were not your original intentions
TheoRain 2 years ago
My intentions at first were to put my thoughts into words somewhere on the internet where fellow KuroFai fans could see them. I realized that the video descriptions of videos on YouTube do not allow a lot of space and tend to be a bit messy, so I then put them all on one page in a website.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Now tell me why you wanted other people to see your thoughts?
TheoRain 2 years ago
They're not just my thoughts. A large portion of that is other people's thoughts. Besides, a large majority of the members on there are from the Tsubasa MangaFox forum, and they've all seen the "thoughts" a long time beforehand, maybe even a year from now. I just gathered them all in one place. These "thoughts" are already on the internet here and there, just google and look for them. They've all been posted up and viewed by hundreds of people before I made this website.
Faeverily 2 years ago
It still doesn't make the whole you have to think of everybody
So you are a contributor to the problem is what your telling me in broad terms
That still doesnt tell me why I you made these videos
What are you achomplishing?
Or why you wanted people to see this?
TheoRain 2 years ago
How is this a problem in the first place?
I created a website where people can share KuroFai doujinshi, fanart, videos, and talk about the couple in general. Is that so bad?
Faeverily 2 years ago
The balance lies within having an own opinion, defending it, but still tolerating other opinions.
And of course we don´t ultimately consider the implications towardsKuroganexFay as a given fact. We just conclude for ourselves, that they are canon. This does not mean that we are 100% sure that they are. It´s just that we believe they are. Believing does imply suggesting and not knowing the truth.
Xellotath03 2 years ago
If you want to accept something for yourself as a fact that isnt a fact then fine
However do not make a case or arguement out of it and argue the others to be wrong in the way she has done it
What is the point of doing that?
TheoRain 2 years ago
Balance lies elsewhere
Balance is when a person tolerates people right to opinions, keeps their own, but does not state it outloud, instead follows logic to avoid the things that people mess up at
TheoRain 2 years ago
That makes no sense. So why would someone need to tolerate other opinions in the first place if no one states their opinions out loud?
Faeverily 2 years ago
You can state opinions but be polite about them
TheoRain 2 years ago
Ok, now I got it. You critisized, that Faeverily says that she accepts the other pairings but still argues against them. But isn´t that the very fundament of having an opinion? It does include that one is biased. Arguing in favour of something does sometimes mean that you are arguing against something else, because some things are mutually exclusive. But this doesn´t mean that you don´t tolerate the opinion of others.
Xellotath03 2 years ago
Yes it is
If you plan to be public about your opinions and be wide range on them such as TV, Interentet, etc then you cannot say you accept others when you are in the mist of arguing them. You can favor one more but being public about them then saying you are personally against them does not present well
Mostly due to the fact you if you argue a point you are usually against it
I dont tolerate opinions when they are suggestions used as facts
TheoRain 2 years ago
I'm an active member on your site, Faeverily! *this is Soratora321* But this... I don't think I can ignore anymore...
114 comments out of 195 all by the same person! TheoRain, I agree with what Xellotath03 said, please do us the favor of summing up what you're trying to say instead of flooding your words with fluff. Conciseness is the key in getting an idea across. Also remember we're talking about a piece of visual literature here, not world history.
PetitPrinceFan 2 years ago
I have us world history examples because direct reasoning does not work with the other person so in attempt to make it easier for them
My points have been repeated many times and why they are in a mass is for my reason above.
TheoRain 2 years ago
Oh and having read your last 100 or something comments: could you do me the favour and sum up what your actual point in this discussion was and leave out all the other elaborate, but superfluous side remarks? Because about 80% of what you are saying is nothing more but hot air.
Xellotath03 2 years ago
None of what I have said is exaggerated or unfurling.
Side note: I severely doubt you read it
Since you arent pulling any of my points from it and need a direct approach on my statements that where not very indirect to begin with
TheoRain 2 years ago
What I meant with this saying is, that you act like a hypocrite.
"I do not sit in a glass house that lies upon the hill I sit in the one made of red brick. The person upon the hill uses the sun to reflect their own intrests from their glass house only one is doing that here"
...Ok, I´m trying to make sense of that one now: I use the "Sun" to reflect my own interest and you sit in a house made of red brick...I´m sorry, but could you please explain to me again what you meant with this?
Xellotath03 2 years ago
Come rushing to thous defence will not cover up that fact that lays at hand. None of this would have happened if she had listend to my friendly advice
TheoRain 2 years ago
You cannot make a suggestion a fact
You cannot aruge the point then later calling it an assumption when you first orginated calling it a fact
You cannot say you support one side then argue the other and claim you allow the support of both sides
You cannot present a case in such a way that you come off as all knowing when truth be told its all suggestions
Further more you cannot cover the real arguement at hand
TheoRain 2 years ago
The yin/yang symbolism, the phoenix/dragon symbolism, and Fai wearing a furisode are all FACTS. However, it is up to the audience on how to interpret those facts, and when I say how I interpret the symbolism, that is an opinion.
That's the problem. This isn't a debate about an issue like abortion or capital punishment, where you can only support one side. This is a pairing argument. There are people who are accepting of BOTH the possibilities of KuroFai and KuroTomo.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Then say thats how you interept them
You your the one who made it a pairing arguement
Im not personally against any of the pairings
Im just saying your logic is not accurate with what you state and how you present it comes out all wrong in the sense that it takes the cover as a fact
You wanted to argue the how it was accurate now you are coming back telling me it was opinion not fact
Im not telling you to get rid of your opinion im saying change how you went about this whole thing
TheoRain 2 years ago
That isn't my point at all
My point is you have to change how you went about/ presentation/ statements/ you need to be able to understand that not everybody sees everything you write as acceptable. You need to be careful with how you write sentences and keep the attitude that you are not arguing when you write you descriptions for your videos.
TheoRain 2 years ago
Those are suggestions no matter how you look at
Symbolism only leaves you room to apply suggestions rather than facts
How to interpret facts well that's very hard in any general situation you can use facts for any given arguement but interpreting them is something that cannot be done. They are what they are. You can use them how you please which can directly change how much of a fact they stand in whichever situation you use them in. In this case you changed the value
TheoRain 2 years ago
You changed the value of the facts you had when you applied them to this story
They became suggestions when connected
TheoRain 2 years ago
Comment removed
TheoRain 2 years ago
Also did you know that you can support both sides on anything
In most debate topics both sides have valid points backed up by facts
In some debates a new solution can be formed that satisfies both sides to some degree though its a give and take thing usually. Both sides need to meet in the middle usually
Meaning is very possible to support both sides
TheoRain 2 years ago
Yes. You just said it's possible to support both sides. So isn't it possible to support only one side, but be willing to listen to the opinions of people on the other side?
Faeverily 2 years ago
I was arguing that its possible in major topics over abortion, gay rights, etc. You can support both sides. Those people tend to actually really support both sides or want equal balance between the two. Its not quite the same to by heart support both sides compared to technically support one side and listen to the other and thats good however your flaw in the second one is you claim to support both and listen but your actions state other wise
TheoRain 2 years ago
Did I say I support both? I said I support KuroFai, but I'm willing to listen to the opinions of KuroTomo fans.
Faeverily 2 years ago
I never said you did
You claim to listen but in term you have done nothing about your formating
You are not even listening to a netural party no offense
TheoRain 2 years ago
I am where my personal opinion on the matter between the pairings cannot be seen and be replaced with logic and reasoning to do what is needed to handle the problem
She sits in the house where she argues a case against other pairings logic then says she supports all pairings right to support what they want and under all of this she uses suggestions as facts and all this is reflected in what she does and says.
Thats sums up the house thing
TheoRain 2 years ago
A hypocrite is a person who does something against what they say
Im not against my fact that she has no right to be against the pairings with the impression she has facts when she has suggestions. She can be against them but has no room to argue against for the flaws in her own logic remain
TheoRain 2 years ago
You say that you don't believe in anything unless there are solid facts and statistics supporting it, yet you like KuroFai. Isn't that doing something that's against what you say?
Faeverily 2 years ago
Thats how a debates are needed to be argued for the most part for what I do
I have to throw aside any personal opinions on the broad topic and look at what is true and what isn't no matter what my personal opinion is on the matter
Its effective in arguements too. I need improvement on maintaining it better but there isn't a soul out there that doesnt have room from improvement on doing so
TheoRain 2 years ago
TheoRain I hope you realize that you started to loose yourself in a rant for quite some time now. You accuse others of heating up old arguments and acting abrasive, but please take a look at the last twenty comments and count the ones that were written by yourself and while you are at it, look at the way you are wording your opinion. The way you are presenting yourself makes you seem like someone, who has an anger managment problem. "Who sits in a glass house should not throw stones."
Xellotath03 2 years ago
Everything has a price to obtain it logically
I give up my right to avoid conflict in the whole process
Martin luther who helped bring about the protest reformation in Europe was doing what was right but went down in the process and later most relized him to be right
I do not sit in a glass house that lies upon the hill I sit in the one made of red brick. The person upon the hill uses the sun to reflect their own intrests from their glass house only one is doing that here
TheoRain 2 years ago
Wow. Just...wow.
First you bring up Jews, then you bring up Germany, then you bring up Martin Luther and Europe and reformation. I don't see why you have to go to so much trouble to defend your case against an implied relationship between two male characters in a manga.
Faeverily 2 years ago
Jews only came into this discussion through a German doctor called Mengele who did things which you would have to go back to one of my further comments to see how.
Why not? Why do you do the same? Why anything?
Curious are you thinking of the same Martin Luther I am. You know the one who criticized the Catholic Church in Europe. Also do you see my reasoning behind using him in this arguement?
Just questions of curiosity nothing else I assure you
TheoRain 2 years ago
I accuse her of inaccurate presentation of suggestions as facts and her having no right with such to try to prove other pairings wrong under such conditions and therefor provoking arguement and as such I must sacrifice my right to avoid conflict to destroy conflict
Lawyers have to argue for other people when they are not directly at fault for what happened sacrifice for not only a pay check but something more
TheoRain 2 years ago
To quote my acquaintance Xellotath03:
"Using hard facts, statistics and rationality as one's fundament for the line of argumentation which is supposed to disprove an interpretation of a manga (whose very own fundament is symbolism and rhetoric devices) is totally the way to go. Before TheoRain, I never heard of someone who uses statistics to disprove symbolism. If people use statistics to disprove literary devices, why do Critical Theory classes exist in the first place?"
Faeverily 2 years ago
Theory is what we use before we reach any conclusion. We need to form theory however in the end we need to back them as well or they remain suggestions or incorrect theories
TheoRain 2 years ago
Also again I remind you that you use your statements as facts rather than theory or suggestions
You cannot argue them as facts without the needed information to back them
TheoRain 2 years ago
Also please do not ignore my want for an explanation about what is said in the description on this video
"HA HA HA. The KuroTomo and FaiChii shippers don't stand a chance! 8D"
Now you state you say other pairings can support what they want yet you say that
A thorough explanation is needed for why you are against what you do yet support what I do and call it as your own side
TheoRain 2 years ago