John Lindsey in an interview with Tanemura S asks: "Did Takamatsu S always call it Togakure ryu?":
"Not at first. When he was associated with the Kuki family he planed to introduce Kukishin Ryu Ninpo in the form of scrolls and densho. But after the war he distanced himself from the Kuki family and decided not to do this. then he met Hatsumi S. and Fukumoto s. Takamatsu S.i decided to teach them Ninpo. That is when he decided to use the name Ninpo."
6)acted completely deluded and claimed all info provided is personal testimony or you think i've been alive since the past 800 years or so
7) lied that hatsumi was made a national treasure by the emperor
8) ignored the fact that the densho are publicly demonstrated once a year and anyone is welcome to see them, but wait. you don't know japanese do you?
9)claimed the BRD is highly suspect when renown scholars call it the best source there is
10)ignored the fact that takamatsu had no motive to lie
@RhadeConstantine the kakutogi no rekishi was published in 1991 it was only referencing a periodical from 1843. you're slightly off but still correct on the fact the schools were mentioned prior to takamatsu, theres also a lot of other evidence for the schools
and please, since ALL i have been asking you for over a year is whether or not your belief that ninjutsu is/includes MA/budo/taijutsu is based on EVIDENCE.
how come the things buffon says do not convince you???
and what do you think of the above quote? is it correct?
seriously though, ignoring me AFTER you made a 10 minute video strawmanning me isn't quite fair...
the best you have is religion's "well you can't prove were lying" bit... bit sad, no?
seriously, further sign's of denial, I've shown you that the fact's in the Togakure ryu Ninjutsu Hidensho have been coroborated independently,and shown to be true after which the BRD officially recognised it. you still ignore Draeger's work and everything else shown to you and continue with your false and baseless assertions. Is there an echo in your head?
"the mention of togakure ryu is in passing in the KNR, which as i have said, is NOT dated in a period that makes its information either credible or relevant."
we've been over this before, first the KNR precedes the ninja boom you keep crying about and second the only thing you've done so far to dispute is it it's date of publication.if the KNR's info on takamatsu is faulty because it came after him then every modern history txt book is fault since they came after the subject's they deal with
you also ignore how takamatsu developed psychic powers and obtained information about Daisuke Nishina that no one else had, or maybe there's a simpler explanation. he didn't make him up. seriously, I'm tired of you ignoring things and twisting them to your liking, why don't you come over to MAP and air your doubts about the state of evidence? oh and btw he WAS the head or soke of those schools
Also daisuke nishina was the one who created the togakure ryu, so you can either say that takamatsu had genuine psychic powers and magically obtained information about daisuke nishina that no one had till much later or he actually had a lineage reaching back to him through which the info was transmitted, your choice. you havent provided a single motive for takamatsu lying and have been unable to debunk the evidence currently at hand but choose to ignore it.
first, we know who he was, we knew who he worked for, we had record of him, to verify the KNR against... besides there is no record of this toda family, no holdings, land, dojos... nada, odd isnt it?
and btw your attempt to cover that post about tatara magazine is in vain, its going up after you get bored, as you always do when people won't accept your lies as gospel...
can't believe i found that, and its all thanks to you, or are u saying you know better than tanemura?
@Arteanor first of all takamatsu was the only one who knew about daisuke nishina. IT took several decades before his existence was proven by a third party, how come takamatsu was the only one who knew about daisuke nishina without even being a scholar, plus you're accusing me of attempting to cover up something? first of all you were lying when you said it was the emperor who gave hatsumi the national treasure title you were lying when claimed the BRD is highly suspect.
also you've completely ignored the BRD and the KNR you've conveniently ignored the findings of the ZNTR you've been unable to provide a SINGLE motive for takamatsu lying, you've been unable to explain how he came by his information, you've falsely claimed you've "shown" he was teaching ninpo beforehand, you've ignored Kacem Zoughari and Draeger's work. btw Draeger is considered to be the most respected ma scholar of the western world. I guess you know more though, right?
you have also conveniently and constantly refused to come to a real discussion board like MAP but prefer to hide out here on youtube and annoy people with your trolling. if you are capable of disproving the BRD and KNR's info then show it, if you are capable of disproving Zoughari and Draeger's work then show it, you have been unable to come up with a single motive for takamatsu lying, you've also ignored his status in two very famous schools and made several erroneous statements.
also though there are a mountain of things you've been wrong about or unable to explain let's start with the basics, Takamatsu come by his information about Daisuke Nishina either orally(IF TODA EXISTED) or through documentation., We know it wasn't any documentation because he was unable to provide any proof except his word Until third party researchers decades later verified nishina's existence and proved he was correct. now unless he had lineage how exactly would he have known this?
you are STILL ignoring the BRD,the KNR the ZNTR, draeger,zoughari and a whole lot of other people's writings. the scrolls hatsumi sensei has have never been dated, so nobody was willing to consider them as documentation, those scrolls were given to takamatsu by toda, there was only takamatsu's WORD that they were the real thing, however we now know that atleast one thing on them is correct thus further proving that these scrolls are real.
also I see you still refuse to come to a real martial art forum but prefer to hide out here on youtube and annoy people. how foolish is it to claim "there's no evidence for the bujinkan being authentic!" ignore all that's provided to you, and refuse to actually come to a proper forum and discuss it? if what you claim is true then you should be able to disprove all the evidence provided something you haven't been able to do. seriously why don't you stick to trolling other vids?
"you are STILL ignoring the BRD,the KNR the ZNTR, draeger,zoughari and a whole lot of other people's writings. "
you are still strawmanning me,
you and i both know that i have clearly told you, that despite opinions that SAY the claims are legit, they have yet to provide the EVIDENCE to support them...
you don't believe everything people tell you do you?
"scrolls were given to takamatsu by toda, there was only takamatsu's WORD"
i would be more than happy to discuss this on ebudo
please, catch up to me after reading the following and their linked posts.
bullshido. net/forums/showthread. php?t=46037
the article that links to, AND
e-budo. com /forum/showthread. php?t=38421
if you can direct me to a post on that forum, or anywhere else, that DOES provide evidence, please do so... but we both know, the best you have is religion's "well you can't prove were lying" bit... bit sad, no?
@Arteanor really? so I guess the fact that the BRD is considered the most respected tome on japanese ma. also why do you so blatantly lie when you know that BRD does accept the togakure ryu?
"thats a lie, he told the BRD, no scrolls"
1st point. you can't read japanese so you just made that up second he told the BRD that the scroll he had was Togakure ryu Ninjutsu Hidensho,戸隠流 and after koyama ryutaro verified several things mentioned in it the BRD did accept the togakure
"you have provided personal testimony, the lowest form of evidence, grats. so what?"
personal testimony? do you lack reading comprehension? I've cited work's by Draeger, Zoughari, Koyama Rantaro, the Bugei ryuha daijiten and the findings of the kakutogi no rekishi, and you claim it's personal testimony? are you delusional or just stupid? I believe you already have a account on MAP, while I don't have one on E budo or Bullshido and you have made a number of post's there in the past. come on over
your also being intentionally misleading, as you and i also both know that the mention of togakure ryu is in passing in the KNR, which as i have said, is NOT dated in a period that makes its information either credible or relevant.
you mis-label the listing in the BRD, and do that deliberately, as if that makes up for , or ignore the very same article saying theres no evidence for his claims...
if they are real, why not take pictures? allergic?
"you also ignore how takamatsu developed psychic powers and obtained information about Daisuke Nishina that no one else ha"
you are the only person who seems to think the ability to research things is a psychic one... nobody with a brain would make a fake ryu witha founder they knew nothing about... they would pick someone who they could flesh out...
you have already been shown he was teaching ninpo before he called it togakure, even tho he learned it as a kid.,,, RIGHT...
seriously arteanor, u haven't been able to disprove the authentication given to the BK in the BRD, KNR,by the zen nippon todo renmei, and by ninjutusu no gokui, and before you cry,that since these come after the "ninja craze" they're all fake keep in mind that all of them precede it by a couple of decades. you're weak exclamations that the ZNTR has less authority than you to authenticate a japanese MA are also rather illogical.
ugh arteanor you troll. the zen nippon todo renmei accept the bujinkan. the kakutogi no rekishi and the bugei ryuha daijiten and ninjutsu no gokui also accept it too. so does the japanese government. face it. by your own admission you have no training whatsoever except in trolling which really isn't helpfull. you're constant claims of there being no evidence are really really dumb. you made a fool of yourself on MAP so now you're skulking here. dumb troll doing the same thing. idiot.
@Arteanor wtf r u talking about? the last comment on your fake ninjering video is mine and I'm still waiting for a reply. the kakutogi no rekishi says this Even though they are not mentioned in this particular periodical, there are several schools that are well-known for being ‘effective arts’ (jitsuryoku ha).” Among the schools listed in this section are Gyokko Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, Gikan Ryu, Kukishin Ryu, and Takagi Ryu (see below).
Also troll the the BRD is considered one of the best sources of info. the only one lying is you. the BRD is extremely well respected and accepted and it's hilarious that you call me a coward, you made a fool of yourself on MAP then ran like a wet cat. lol. Also. if im a coward my offer of a friendly sparring match still stand. we'l see who's a coward then. the zen nippon todo renmei HAS authority, the KKNR and BRD have recognised the buj. face it. ure just another pathetic online troll.
ALSO. the japanese government recognise hatsumi but ofcourse the japanese government doesn't know as much about japanese MA as you do right? publications by some of the most respected martial art historian and scholars recognise the bujinkan. but ofcourse you know more than them right? there are people on MAP who have lived studied and trained in Japan for decades but im sure you know a lot more from your trolling sessions. you call me a coward yet consistently refuse to spar with me. troll.
"ALSO. the japanese government recognise hatsumi but ofcourse the japanese government doesn't know as much about japanese MA as you do right?"
name the branch of government that does this.
"the zen nippon todo renmei HAS authority, "
BALD ASSERTION
explain to me how the sport sword fighting federation of japan can better authenticate an obscure kobujutsu discipline than the official koryu societies??
or do u just say that to avoid admitting he got passed on by the NKS&NKK?
@Arteanor uhh.. the branch of the government that considers him a National treasure, and has decorated him for his work and contribution on the areas of culture and warrior arts?? the NKS and the NKK havent authenticated him because he hasn't asked them too. he says anyone is welcome to come and see the densho AT his home .The NKS and NKK have not done this and require all schools to bring the documents TO them. the ZNTR went there and spent over a year looking over everything before saying ok.
furthermore can you explain to me what the ZNTR can do to authenticate a historical densho? what role do you believe the japanese sword federation, an organization that recognizes and teaches your schools ryu as gendai budo taijutsu...
how dare you prey on the ignorance of people to not know the role of the ZNTR, and where they have authority...
and isn't it odd to you that takamatsu told the BRD that there WERE ZERO DENSHO, and that he recieved a kuden transmission?
@Arteanor wrong. it wasn't the emperor who declared him a national treasure by the JAPANESE CULTURAL AGENCY. seriously. aren't you tired of being wrong?also the only ignorant one here is you. the ZNTR has several esteemed scholars on the japanese language and culture on it's board who went over the densho, but ofcourse you, who aren't from japan and don't speak the language know more than them right? also any proof that these meetings hatsumi went for didn't just happen in your mind??
"it wasn't the emperor who declared him a national treasure by the JAPANESE CULTURAL AGENCY"
so your either unable to provide or ignorant of the japanese name of the "japanese cultural agency" which oddly isn't mentioned on even 1 japanese source....
"seriously. aren't you tired of being wrong?"
i would have to make an error first,
"also the only ignorant one here is you"
more baseless assertions?
you have already been corrected on the ZNTR, by buffonmusa, nice lying.
@Arteanor which japanese source did you check btw? ok, here's your error list
1) u claim that the BRD's info is highly suspect. world renown scholars on the other hand recommend it highly
2) you ignore the KNR and ninjutsu no gokui
3) you ignore the fact that daisuke nishina's existence has been verified by independent 3rd party researchers, so unless the BJK can see into the past they were not lying.
4)you ask for the japanese name of the JCA? do you even know japanese?
5) you ignore the information provided by Dr Kacem Zoughari, he holds a PHD in Japanese culture AND on the Language.'
6) the JCA's japanese name is 文化庁 bunkachō
7) hatsumi publicly displays his scrolls once a year, if you're willing to go to see them and can understand the language go ahead.
8) you were completely wrong when you claimed it was the japanese emperor who declared him a treasure and haven't been able to back up your baseless claims that it was for tourism
9). Takamatsu is the recognized authority from such famous schools as Kukishin Ryu (recognized even by the Kuki family themselves) and Gyokko Ryu. he never attempted to make money off his position, was an ordained priest and when he died his neighbours were shocked to find out that he was infact a very famous martial artist? does this sound like a fraud to you?also given his status what reason would he have for making up false schools complete with documentation and a history of characters?
10) I'd be really interested to hear how exactly you're going to explain the clairvoiyant powers the BJK used when they provided information about Nishina which was verified several years by 3rd party researchers btw. Either they have psychic abilities or they're telling the truth. I know which explanation I'm going with.
1) go to page 2 here's what you posted "the brd cites its historical claims as highly suspect. why do you so blatantly lie?" having memory trouble are we?
2) Modern? I've seen you throw this around before and these books predate the ninja craze you're so fond of by quite some time. Also If a modern reference isn't usefull in deciding things then I guess every book writen on Julius Caesar after his death is useless, see the logic fail?
3) Koyama Rantaro and many other's have verified the existence of Daisuke Nishina, Now Takamatsu is giving a list of names and dates that he claims lineage from, If he's lying they're made up, BUT we know that Nishina did exist at the time Takamatsu said he did exist and the other details takamatsu provided were also correct. so either he was telling the truth or had psychic abilties.
4)? I already answered this mate the JCA's japanese name is 文化庁 bunkachō
also how exactly isn't your language relevant? 9 out of 10 sources on this issue are in Japanese how you claim to know anything if you can't even read them?
also.
you have still ignored the following points
1) Kacem Zoughari holds a PHD in Japanese culture and language, he disagree's with you
2) Hatsumi displays his scrolls publicly once a year, you've called them fake without even seeing thm
3)you were completely wrong when you said it was the Emperor who made hatsumi a national treasure.
you also ignored the fact that takamatsu was the head of two very well respected schools of MA, was a very famous and respected martial artist, he never tried to make money or obtain fame from his position(although he could have) lived a simple life ended up an priest and when he died his neighbours were shocked to find out that he was infact a famous martial artist, why would he make up false schools complete with documentation and a history of characters? he never even tried benefiting from it
you also called the KNR and ninjutsu no gokui a hoax without knowing anything about them just because you "thought" they were written at a particular period. which btw you were wrong about. also if coming after all of this made them a hoax then I guess every book on WW2 that was not written during the war is a hoax seriously you can't even read the damn books but have no hesitation in calling them hoaxes all of this evidence has been given countless times u've just ignored it again and again.
John Lindsey in an interview with Tanemura S asks: "Did Takamatsu S always call it Togakure ryu?":
"Not at first. When he was associated with the Kuki family he planed to introduce Kukishin Ryu Ninpo in the form of scrolls and densho. But after the war he distanced himself from the Kuki family and decided not to do this. then he met Hatsumi S. and Fukumoto s. Takamatsu S.i decided to teach them Ninpo. That is when he decided to use the name Ninpo."
"Also If a modern reference isn't usefull in deciding things then I guess every book writen on Julius Caesar after his death is useless, see the logic fail?"
ah but i never claimed that, strawman...
a rather ignorant statement, you've claimed that things written about takamatsu that came after him or the ninja boom as you call it are hoaxes, btw you haven't even read the books yet. all i've done is substitute Julius Caesar for takamatsu, do you understand the logic fail now?
you even claimed inaccurately that it was the emperor who declared hatsumi a national treasure and even forgot what you yourself had posted about the BRD.
Also you ignore the fact that hatsumi displays his scrolls publicly once a year and anyone is welcome to see them. seriously arteanor how long will you continue to ignore evidence? also I see you claim to have a copy of the KNR, cool but as far as I recall you don't understand japanese.lol. remember?
1) kacem has an agenda, this colors the research he does...
he makes broad assumptions, too broad for my liking...
2) this is not true, it is a flashing glimpse that you offer, not the extended examination that is necessary, and i have never pretended to be able to date a densho by eye, that is beyond my abilities, however he did leave them at home when he met the NKS...
3) oh? is there a biography you deem correct? or just any that excludes that?
if you only have 1 guy you say made the ryu.. followed by nobodys absent from all records, how can you claim verified lineage?
"BUT we know that Nishina did exist at the time Takamatsu said he did" DUH, would you pick someone you knew NOTHING about to be the head of your fake ryu? or someone you knew LOTS about? research is psychic abilities to you?
4) ah yes, can you show me where on the "agency for cultural affairs" they call themselves the JCA ??
2) modern, yes. as in made by takamatsu, or rather adapted out of the learnings he acquired.
sustainedreaction. yuku. com /topic/5540 i think this is summarizes well and is pretty agreeable, even complimentary considering the situation.
"Also If a modern reference isn't usefull in deciding things then I guess every book writen on Julius Caesar after his death is useless, see the logic fail?"
un arte de guerra que incluye:sabotaje,infiltracion,asesinato,estrategias,psicologia,aspecto religioso,aspecto espiritual-filosofico,manejo de armas,desplazamiento en los arboles,desplazamiento en el agua(buceo-natacion),formas de saltar ycaer,codigos secretos,tecnicas de memorizacion,espionaje,y un larguisimo ETC.me da pena tanta gente en el extranjero que porque son alumnos bujinkan se creen "ninjas" o que estudian ninjutsu,cuando en realidad no estudian real ninjutsu sino taijutsu
un arte de guerra que incluye:sabotaje,infiltracion,asesinato,estrategias,psicologia,aspecto religioso,aspecto espiritual-filosofico,manejo de armas,desplazamiento en los arboles,desplazamiento en el agua(buceo-natacion),formas de saltar ycaer,codigos secretos,tecnicas de memorizacion,espionaje,y un larguisimo ETC.me da pena tanta gente en el extranjero que porque son alumnos bujinkan se creen "ninjas" o que estudian ninjutsu,cuando en realidad no estudian real ninjutsu sino taijutsu
un arte de guerra que incluye:sabotaje,infiltracion,asesinato,estrategias,psicologia,aspecto religioso,aspecto espiritual-filosofico,manejo de armas,desplazamiento en los arboles,desplazamiento en el agua(buceo-natacion),formas de saltar ycaer,codigos secretos,tecnicas de memorizacion,espionaje,y un larguisimo ETC.me da pena tanta gente en el extranjero que porque son alumnos bujinkan se creen "ninjas" o que estudian ninjutsu,cuando en realidad no estudian real ninjutsu sino taijutsu
senhores ya esta dicho hasta el cansancio... lo d bujinkan NO es ninjutsu,sino budo taijutsu.y eso de las famosas 3 escuelas de ninjutsu que incluye es FALSO.varios historiadores japoneses lo dicen; dicen en que puede haber sido una teoria que takamatsu sustento(o invento) y que no hay pruebas que esas 3 escuelas de ninjutsu hubieran existido.si bien es cierto en bujinkan se ensenha un BUEN taijutsu,eso NO es y repito NO es ninjutsu.ninjutsu NO es una arte marcial,sino un arte de guerra
en realidad kawakami es el heredero de las familias ninja restantes y el unico alumno occidental reconocido por el soke es un español: Juan Hombre los demas o son unos farsantes como la bujinkan ( q enrealidad la bujinkan no hace ninjutsu, sino budo taijutsu) o hacen un ninjutsu un tanto falso
el maestro jinichi, es mejor que el farsante de hatsumi... pues es el lambe huevos del emperador de japon, jinichi es mejor y mas original que hatsumi...
hey markhusmedina en adicion a tu comentario vale la pena recalcar que kawakami esta reconocido por el gobierno de lo que eran las provincias de iga y koka como su represantante y heredero de la BAN FAMILY KOKA NINJA
no se mucho de el master hinichi, pero simplemente al observar la aplicacion de tecnicas se ve que es mejor que cualquier otro disque soke de ninjutsu, y me gusto mucho su sistema lastima que aqui en México no haya nadie que trabaje directamente con el...
jajaj hatsumi es un gran farsante y tambien todos sus gatos que le siguen, yo soy de ninjutsu y soy campeon mundial de vale todo y campeon nacional de muay thai, y tu me imagino que eres uno de los gatos de hatsumi, tu que eres, nada al igual que hatsumi, solo un pendejo mas de bujinkan que solo les gusta acumular grados pero a la hora de los putazos reales son unos pendejos que no sirven para nada, al igual que hatsumi tu y todos los bujinkan son unos pendejos que no sirven para BUJINKAN12
primer error tuyo campeon mundial de ninjutsu eres deveras un gilipollas segundo error que tiene que ver lo que estamos hablando con lo que tu seas y que campeon nacional de muay thai de verdad eres medio tarado y 3 error le historia y sabras la verdad pendejo no seas segado webon y lee
mira pendejo mejor ve a chingar a toda tu puta madre y te voy a localizar para que te meta la verga a ti y a tu puta madre, pendejo maricon que para decir mamadas por este medio eres bueno pero ya veremos cuando me tengas enfrente hasta te vas a cagar putito -te lo prometo- te voy a chingar y chinguen a su madre todos los de bujinkan y si son tan buenos busquenme pinches putitos haber si es cierto que son buenos, y si son buenos pero para dar las nalgas pinches putos...
chinguen a su puta madre todos los de bujinkan, los estoy esperando, para ver si es cierto que su puto sistema de ninjutsu sirve, demuestrenmelo, no sean pura pinche voca bola de putos, vayan a cojer a la mas viejas de sus casa, putos no sirven para nada, hatsumi y todos ustedes son una bola de putos, y los seran siempre.
because ninja were poor rebels and some other skilled warriors and swordsmen. that rebelled against the Samurai who at that time could do basically whatever the heck they wanted to the people because of the law at that time in feudal Japan.
So yea ninja didn't actually have money to buy many ninjato especially the more expensive curve-blade sword. actually most ninja never even owned a sword because they were soo expensive..which is why most of their weapons were made from common gardening tools. it wasn't until clans were established could anyone afford a curved blade sword which were stronger than the original straight-blade ninjatos.
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Ninja were pretty much against the samurai, the only reason they became known to possess curved blades was because they took it from thier enemy in the first place, mostly Samurai. Historically ninja were more like hired thugs, they just used whatever they had at the time, stealing someone elses blade was just logical.
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funniwst shit iv heard. know what ninja schools are? check this school: "iga ryu" and this one" togakure ryu" and this one "kokushin ryu". check the soke list. you will notice that all soke of this ninja clans were indeed samurai.
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kukishin ryu is a samurai school. But tokagure ryu ninjutsu is not maybe you are right but i think this is not correct because a samurai who had a code of honor couldnt learn how to spy
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kukishin ryu is a samurai school, like all other ninpo schools and the only ninpo school regarded as koryu. if youl check togakure school out you will notice that the founder of the method (even though he wasent really the first soke, as claimed by most) named daisuke togakure is a samurai. one more thing: the bushido was codifide about 30 years after the meiji era. during feodal times, the only rule was obay your daimio, and every daimio had his own set of rules.
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you are right about daiskuke tokugaru. But all the ninjas were jizamurai (a warrior living like a pesant). Daisuke fled from a battelfield to rescue his life and went to a village tokugare. There he honed his abilites
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he was an iga ninja, thats where he learned his abilities. he tought them at the village of togakure, creating a new style of ninjutsu. and about the jizamurai, that is just not true. sorry. it clearly states in the togakure hidensho that as a retainer samurai of a ninja clan you should do this and that. as a retainer samurai. and look at all the soke, all were samurai. every and each. and as and clan leaders, they had lands and retainer samurai, so there was no need for them to be jizamurai.
I bet your an x-kan practitioner aren't you!! That's cool though. Even though I talk good about Hatsumi-Sensei you still talk trash. That's ok though, you can believe whatever they tell you!! I forgot you'll know everything!!
The straight ninja-to was the original ninja-sword by the way. It was introduced to japan in the heian period by China. Also, do you guys really think that Ninjutsu, Iga or Koka is really dead!! Come on, this is a huge world with billions of unknown people out there!! Do you really think that most TRUE clans would be bragging that they're Ninja and so on!! You know that there's gonna be some more Iga and Koka Ninja out there!! Yes Kawakami is authentic and so is Hatsumi, but there's alot more.
And no, it wasn't because curved swords were used by the time ninja appeared, there's also no documentation of a straight bladed ninjato. And no, Kawakami wasn't proven to be a real soke but he is a ninja historian.
there certainly are. They still live to this day, but use peoples disbelief to their advantage as a shinobi would. for what reason? so fools won't tamper or "play" with their way their art...tabun (maybe).
i posted that almost a year ago and i don't remember the topic, care to explain? Was i speaking of Ninjutsu practitioners of a certain ryu ? or just the fact that ninja of course still live today?
do you not know that takamatsu(hatsumi's sensei) and therefore hatsumi, have NEVER proven their claims to ninjutsu...
the ONLY evidence for his claims is that HE SAYS SO.
there IS also the FACT that ninjutsu ISNT a martial art. in fact that it has NO combat techniques at all...
of course, i dont ask you to believe me on faith ( like hatsumi and takamatsu), and so i will cite the bansenshukai, the ninpiden, and the shoninki. none of which contain combat.
@Creationsofmyown a name? it's not because in the Shōninki, Bansenshūkai and Ninpiden wasn't found a certain clue about them having actual combats, that they didn't.. they are manuscrips, they contain the techniques and what they used to practice, what weapons they used or invented and what skills made the ninja the masters of their art.. they also practiced taijutsu and army techniques', i'm not saying your wrong, but that suggests to me they did a lot more than their manuscripts say..
MY "know it all-ness" ???? seems you need to read more carefully, you are defending someone who has repeatedly made baldfaced assertions while neglecting that they are entirely false, AND lacking in any evidentiary capacity beyond HEARSAY.
but you knew that already didnt you? and you still posted just to try to cover the facts.
if its pointless and irritating why don't you show some evidence for the claims being made by the ninjers you love to defend? shut me up.
I train to better myself and to protect my friends and family, I couldn't give a shit about fake ninja's on youtube or logical fallacy or your superior debating skills.
My question is, could you handle yourself in a real situation where internet thuggery and debating skills will get you nothing?
I highly doubt it, fuck all your technicality bullshit.
for someone who belongs to a school that needed to claim ninja lineage(without proof of course) to get members, you sure seem to have an astonishingly small interest in what we can ACTUALLY PROVE about shinobi.
"My question is, could you handle yourself in a real situation where internet thuggery and debating skills will get you nothing?"
of course, but if you can't handle the current topic, just admit it.
@Creationsofmyown then look it up, ninja practised taijutsu, and ninja made their own weapons and practised their skills with it, there are many books written about it where you can find it, it's even in the manuscript.. But I don't want to argue about it, if you think otherwise, then that's your God given right to do so, I'm not saying I'm completely right either, but that are the facts I heard n seen and been reading..
there is nothing to look up on "ninja taijutsu". the only people claiming it are takamats-den arts...
"ninja made their own weapons and practised their skills with it" another assertion without evidence, there is NO evidence for ninjutsu being or including a martial art.
@Creationsofmyown yeah if you want to believe that who am I to stop you, but I'm believing what I heard, and I respect you for trying to convince me or teach me otherwise, but I'm sticking to what I learnt, and I'm not lying, if that's what your thinking, I just believe other people, books, facts.. but no hard feelings, I appreciate you trying
"yeah if you want to believe that who am I to stop you"
same to you chief, if your ok believing tall tales why should i care about convincing you? i do however care that you are spouting lies as facts. so i will correct them.
"but I'm believing what I heard" in medieval times people heard about dragons, on the plus side, your story is just as likely.
"and I'm not lying" you said its in the manuscript, that IS A LIE.name the scroll.
@Creationsofmyown I'm not spouting lies, maybe you are, but I'm not accusing you, yet you accuse me of lying why you yourself aren't even sure of your facts, if you don't agree than tell me where you got your so called ''truth'' from.. what happened you woke up one day and suddenly knew? don't call people liars because they don't believe stories of people like you.. There's been war in the past because of people believing one man for it's words..
@Arteanor WAIT a minute! you're lying yourself right now;
''considering all of your "facts" are simply a story told by a guy who wants to SELL you ninja martial arts.'' How dare you lying like that!! I said I read books n stuff, now people who are involved with the arts, and you say it's a guy trying to sell me the arts, now you are making yo stuff up, it's as simple as that! I'm not going to argue with you anymore, since you argue with everyone here, thinking you're right and the world's not
NO, like I already said; DONE arguiing with someone who doesn't respect other opinions or the people that do happen to believe those opinions instead of yours, while you're actually not even listening because the only thing echoing in your head is your own voice and your own opinion, and @ the beginning I respected that, but since you don't even respect others and call them liars, because you think you're right and the world's wrong, I'm DONE!!
@Arteanor well you just proved what I said, you called me a liar and you still do, while to me and others what I said is the truth, and I'm sure if you go check your ''arguement-history'' on this page, you will find that's a fact!! I didn't lie at all, to me you are lying and to you I am lying, case closed.. because you gotta learn that you can't just call people liars just because they don't share your opinion, and I respect your opion, to you it might be true, but to me it's not
"I respect your opion, to you it might be true, but to me it's not"
according to you, disagreeing is disrespecting your opinion, so NO you don't respect my opinion. another lie. damn, so easy...
"'you said something untrue, that means you lied''
that's just your opion, not mine or others."
not in any way, we are speaking of FACTS, i have them, in the scrolls... and where is your "facts"? ah right, the old man selling ninja school.... ROFL
@Arteanor ''according to you, disagreeing is disrespecting your opinion, so NO you don't respect my opinion. another lie. damn, so easy...''
Did I say that? NO, proves you don't understand a word people are saying, and only your own voice in your head!! you don't understand anything, so we'll just shut up about it, cuz you don't want to hear cause you think you're soooo much worth it, I'm not gonne waste my time on you anymore cause you're an ignorant selfish I-now-it-all accusing person
"but since you don't even respect others and call them liars"
YOU SAID THAT. just because you said something untrue does NOT mean i don't respect you, it only means that your a FUCKING LIAR.
i have PROVEN what you said to be false, and you still infer that you are entitled to some sort of subjective truth, that YOU have a different version of the truth than the rest of us, this is of course BULLSHIT. 2+2 = 4... no matter how many times you say its 7
@Arteanor you never proved anything!! and now you get angry because people don't believe you, I'm not a liar and you know it, and you just get angry Cuz you know you're wrong!! and by the way ; ''that YOU have a different version of the truth than the rest of us'' You don't have anyone that sheirs your opinion'' and Cuz I said you argue here with everyone and I share my truth and opinion with a lot of people, you suddenly sheir your opinion with the rest? where is your rest?
@Elketjeable "you never proved anything" uh, just because you didn't go READ the shinobi manuals i told u to check out doesn't mean i haven't proven myself.
"I'm not a liar and you know it" i know you say things that are not true, so YES your a liar. dont get so upset, just stop saying your opinion like its proven fact.
"You don't have anyone that sheirs your opinion" i think you mean shares, which is another lie. the Nihon kobudo shinkokai, nihon kobudo kyokai and koryu com all do.
Ninjatos weren't straight, end of story, that derives from hollywood, and Iga ryu is dead. Jinichi Kawakami may know Ninjutsu, but he isn't soke of Iga ryu.
Hyoujinsama, you are correct. The straight blade does exist, but they actually didn't have them in the time of the Ninja. When a new Katana is being forged, it curves naturally. It would be very difficult to create a straight blade by hand back then.
Actually, the blade I have is Kambun Shinto. Plenty old enough to be from that time period. To make a straight katana, the sunobe would have to be forged muzori. The quench would then straighten it out. Straight katana were not all too tough to make. Just harder than the standard curved.
The only thing that makes the blade curved is that it has 2 types of steel crystals do to clay on the blade at quenching time. Anyone can make a straight blade with ease. So much BS here.
Yeah, it's easy to make a straight blade, but you said it yourself...sorta. Differential hardening. You have to forge a billet uchizori (not muzori, to correct my previous post), and just uchizori enough to straighten out without some curve in one direction or another.
Straight blade = easy. Differentially hardened straight blade = not. Unless there is an oil quench which wasn't used until the late 1800s anyways.
SandayuRyu, I don't know how many times I've had to explain this to people. Some Ninjutsu espionage methods were inspired by Sun Tzu, a Chinese War strategist. But many of the weapons were developed in Japan. Not all of Ninjutsu comes from China. In fact, hardly any of it does.
Not to say anything about Kawakami Jinichi's character as a person, but I have a hard time believing in the elusive Ninjato. Why is no-one allowed to inspect the only "antique" one at the museum? Why has shinsa not been performed on the only "antique" blade of its kind?
Not saying straight swords didn't exist, as I have a muzori katana in my own collection, but I have yet to hear of ANY muzori katana in ninjato koshirae. I have never once seen antique square black tsuba and pointed kojiri.
thats because they were cheaply forged and as insignificant after a mission as a empty shell from a bullet. easily discarded maybe even reforged into a gardening tool. as most ninja weapons were tools. but the western looking hollywood ninja tou, is questionable. i agree.
There is a whole Iga Koga debate. Just look at the material being taught and judge from there. We are not from Japan and who knows what is what. looks good to me.
we all do, but we will never be shinobi. he is cuz he learned from his heritage, but are you descended from them? if not, you will only be a ninja trained person, not a true ninja.
then that means there ( japanese) arent true ninja either, because the traditional teachings come from china. en no gyoja etc. do your history, god your embarrasing.
hmmmm....are you referring to me? because i already know that ninpo came from the teachings of china, just like most martial arts. still, are gung fu practitioners called karate ka? no, they arent. and last i checked, ninjutsu developed from japan and came from the teachings of china. doesnt mean that those chinese were ninja, it means their teachings are and those teachings became a japanese art.
Ninjutsu does have origins from all over asia, it's just that when all that knowledge came to japan is when it was developed into what we know today as ninjutsu. you cant find this exact martial art anywhere else, unless you somehow had centuries to learn all the different cultures and teachings from the other countries it came from, battle test what you know, throw out what doesnt work, modify what does work to make it better, and persist in that manner until you develop it yourself.
Ninjutsu was a combination of techniques that existed in Japan that were then mixed with stuff from China and then had about 1400 years to grow and change. Think of just a second, how much has martial arts change in the USA in the last 100 years?
Also technique changes with weapons, armor, need, time needed to train, available for training, medicine, support, what place you fight etc. Even the USA sees this, that is why we have Navy, Army, Air Force etc. One technique does not fit all fighting.
Hes not the last ninja, is a librarymouse. The ninjato Isnt real, the Shinobis was used katanas or wazikachi.
alejandrothegod 1 year ago
@alejandrothegod How do you know that? Because hatsumi says?
NAZABAS1 7 months ago
Tatara magazine page 6.
John Lindsey in an interview with Tanemura S asks: "Did Takamatsu S always call it Togakure ryu?":
"Not at first. When he was associated with the Kuki family he planed to introduce Kukishin Ryu Ninpo in the form of scrolls and densho. But after the war he distanced himself from the Kuki family and decided not to do this. then he met Hatsumi S. and Fukumoto s. Takamatsu S.i decided to teach them Ninpo. That is when he decided to use the name Ninpo."
Arteanor 1 year ago
so let's make a list of your fails
1)ignored Draeger,Zoughari,Rantaro's writing
2)ignored the recognition given to the BJK by the BRD and KNR
3) called the KNR lies without reading it because you thought it was published at a particular date but got the date wrong
4)lied that takamatsu told the BRD there are no scrolls
5)ignored the fact that several details in Togakure ryu Ninjutsu Hidensho have been independently verified
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
6)acted completely deluded and claimed all info provided is personal testimony or you think i've been alive since the past 800 years or so
7) lied that hatsumi was made a national treasure by the emperor
8) ignored the fact that the densho are publicly demonstrated once a year and anyone is welcome to see them, but wait. you don't know japanese do you?
9)claimed the BRD is highly suspect when renown scholars call it the best source there is
10)ignored the fact that takamatsu had no motive to lie
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
Comment removed
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine the kakutogi no rekishi was published in 1991 it was only referencing a periodical from 1843. you're slightly off but still correct on the fact the schools were mentioned prior to takamatsu, theres also a lot of other evidence for the schools
scottbaioisdead 1 year ago
@scottbaioisdead oh, thanks for pointing that out, could you point out the other stuff to me later, when you're free?
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
@scottbaioisdead
"theres also a lot of other evidence for the schools "
i saw all of it when you posted on the "why do you believe?" post on ebudo....
so please, share it with me.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@scottbaioisdead
and please, since ALL i have been asking you for over a year is whether or not your belief that ninjutsu is/includes MA/budo/taijutsu is based on EVIDENCE.
how come the things buffon says do not convince you???
and what do you think of the above quote? is it correct?
seriously though, ignoring me AFTER you made a 10 minute video strawmanning me isn't quite fair...
Arteanor 1 year ago
the best you have is religion's "well you can't prove were lying" bit... bit sad, no?
seriously, further sign's of denial, I've shown you that the fact's in the Togakure ryu Ninjutsu Hidensho have been coroborated independently,and shown to be true after which the BRD officially recognised it. you still ignore Draeger's work and everything else shown to you and continue with your false and baseless assertions. Is there an echo in your head?
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
"the mention of togakure ryu is in passing in the KNR, which as i have said, is NOT dated in a period that makes its information either credible or relevant."
we've been over this before, first the KNR precedes the ninja boom you keep crying about and second the only thing you've done so far to dispute is it it's date of publication.if the KNR's info on takamatsu is faulty because it came after him then every modern history txt book is fault since they came after the subject's they deal with
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
you also ignore how takamatsu developed psychic powers and obtained information about Daisuke Nishina that no one else had, or maybe there's a simpler explanation. he didn't make him up. seriously, I'm tired of you ignoring things and twisting them to your liking, why don't you come over to MAP and air your doubts about the state of evidence? oh and btw he WAS the head or soke of those schools
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
Also daisuke nishina was the one who created the togakure ryu, so you can either say that takamatsu had genuine psychic powers and magically obtained information about daisuke nishina that no one had till much later or he actually had a lineage reaching back to him through which the info was transmitted, your choice. you havent provided a single motive for takamatsu lying and have been unable to debunk the evidence currently at hand but choose to ignore it.
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
first, we know who he was, we knew who he worked for, we had record of him, to verify the KNR against... besides there is no record of this toda family, no holdings, land, dojos... nada, odd isnt it?
and btw your attempt to cover that post about tatara magazine is in vain, its going up after you get bored, as you always do when people won't accept your lies as gospel...
can't believe i found that, and its all thanks to you, or are u saying you know better than tanemura?
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor first of all takamatsu was the only one who knew about daisuke nishina. IT took several decades before his existence was proven by a third party, how come takamatsu was the only one who knew about daisuke nishina without even being a scholar, plus you're accusing me of attempting to cover up something? first of all you were lying when you said it was the emperor who gave hatsumi the national treasure title you were lying when claimed the BRD is highly suspect.
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
also you've completely ignored the BRD and the KNR you've conveniently ignored the findings of the ZNTR you've been unable to provide a SINGLE motive for takamatsu lying, you've been unable to explain how he came by his information, you've falsely claimed you've "shown" he was teaching ninpo beforehand, you've ignored Kacem Zoughari and Draeger's work. btw Draeger is considered to be the most respected ma scholar of the western world. I guess you know more though, right?
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
you have also conveniently and constantly refused to come to a real discussion board like MAP but prefer to hide out here on youtube and annoy people with your trolling. if you are capable of disproving the BRD and KNR's info then show it, if you are capable of disproving Zoughari and Draeger's work then show it, you have been unable to come up with a single motive for takamatsu lying, you've also ignored his status in two very famous schools and made several erroneous statements.
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
also though there are a mountain of things you've been wrong about or unable to explain let's start with the basics, Takamatsu come by his information about Daisuke Nishina either orally(IF TODA EXISTED) or through documentation., We know it wasn't any documentation because he was unable to provide any proof except his word Until third party researchers decades later verified nishina's existence and proved he was correct. now unless he had lineage how exactly would he have known this?
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
" We know it wasn't any documentation"
how the hell do you figure?
you ASSERT that we know, i think i remember a post that said something about togakure being in one of the scrolls... and public before takamatsu...
and since you havent shown anything i have said to be wrong, keep your lies to yourself.
"because he was unable to provide any proof except his word "
then why does hatsumi claim edo period scrolls???
in togakure ryu, on the same scroll as gyokko ryu??
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor lol, so let's see
you are STILL ignoring the BRD,the KNR the ZNTR, draeger,zoughari and a whole lot of other people's writings. the scrolls hatsumi sensei has have never been dated, so nobody was willing to consider them as documentation, those scrolls were given to takamatsu by toda, there was only takamatsu's WORD that they were the real thing, however we now know that atleast one thing on them is correct thus further proving that these scrolls are real.
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
also I see you still refuse to come to a real martial art forum but prefer to hide out here on youtube and annoy people. how foolish is it to claim "there's no evidence for the bujinkan being authentic!" ignore all that's provided to you, and refuse to actually come to a proper forum and discuss it? if what you claim is true then you should be able to disprove all the evidence provided something you haven't been able to do. seriously why don't you stick to trolling other vids?
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
"also I see you still refuse to come to a real martial art forum"
i have already told you i would take it to e-budo, a REAL MA forum,
"ignore all that's provided to you"
you have provided personal testimony, the lowest form of evidence, grats. so what?
you expect us to overturn historic fact because some people say they saw some paper? but the paper cannot be viewed?
get real kiddo,
and seriously, enough with the lying, how can you even stomach your own face in the mirror?
Arteanor 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
"you are STILL ignoring the BRD,the KNR the ZNTR, draeger,zoughari and a whole lot of other people's writings. "
you are still strawmanning me,
you and i both know that i have clearly told you, that despite opinions that SAY the claims are legit, they have yet to provide the EVIDENCE to support them...
you don't believe everything people tell you do you?
"scrolls were given to takamatsu by toda, there was only takamatsu's WORD"
thats a lie, he told the BRD, no scrolls
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor
i would be more than happy to discuss this on ebudo
please, catch up to me after reading the following and their linked posts.
bullshido. net/forums/showthread. php?t=46037
the article that links to, AND
e-budo. com /forum/showthread. php?t=38421
if you can direct me to a post on that forum, or anywhere else, that DOES provide evidence, please do so... but we both know, the best you have is religion's "well you can't prove were lying" bit... bit sad, no?
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor really? so I guess the fact that the BRD is considered the most respected tome on japanese ma. also why do you so blatantly lie when you know that BRD does accept the togakure ryu?
"thats a lie, he told the BRD, no scrolls"
1st point. you can't read japanese so you just made that up second he told the BRD that the scroll he had was Togakure ryu Ninjutsu Hidensho,戸隠流 and after koyama ryutaro verified several things mentioned in it the BRD did accept the togakure
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
"you have provided personal testimony, the lowest form of evidence, grats. so what?"
personal testimony? do you lack reading comprehension? I've cited work's by Draeger, Zoughari, Koyama Rantaro, the Bugei ryuha daijiten and the findings of the kakutogi no rekishi, and you claim it's personal testimony? are you delusional or just stupid? I believe you already have a account on MAP, while I don't have one on E budo or Bullshido and you have made a number of post's there in the past. come on over
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
your also being intentionally misleading, as you and i also both know that the mention of togakure ryu is in passing in the KNR, which as i have said, is NOT dated in a period that makes its information either credible or relevant.
you mis-label the listing in the BRD, and do that deliberately, as if that makes up for , or ignore the very same article saying theres no evidence for his claims...
if they are real, why not take pictures? allergic?
Arteanor 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
"you also ignore how takamatsu developed psychic powers and obtained information about Daisuke Nishina that no one else ha"
you are the only person who seems to think the ability to research things is a psychic one... nobody with a brain would make a fake ryu witha founder they knew nothing about... they would pick someone who they could flesh out...
you have already been shown he was teaching ninpo before he called it togakure, even tho he learned it as a kid.,,, RIGHT...
Arteanor 1 year ago
seriously arteanor, u haven't been able to disprove the authentication given to the BK in the BRD, KNR,by the zen nippon todo renmei, and by ninjutusu no gokui, and before you cry,that since these come after the "ninja craze" they're all fake keep in mind that all of them precede it by a couple of decades. you're weak exclamations that the ZNTR has less authority than you to authenticate a japanese MA are also rather illogical.
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
ugh arteanor you troll. the zen nippon todo renmei accept the bujinkan. the kakutogi no rekishi and the bugei ryuha daijiten and ninjutsu no gokui also accept it too. so does the japanese government. face it. by your own admission you have no training whatsoever except in trolling which really isn't helpfull. you're constant claims of there being no evidence are really really dumb. you made a fool of yourself on MAP so now you're skulking here. dumb troll doing the same thing. idiot.
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
ah rhade, too much a coward to actually post as a reply so that i GET a response email.
you know that the zen nippon todo renmei, (the japanese sword federation) has no authority to authenticate the historical claims of ninjutsu.
you still havent said what you claim the kakutogi no rekishi says...
the brd cites its historical claims as highly suspect. why do you so blatantly lie?
your constant claims using flawed evidence fall on deaf ears.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor wtf r u talking about? the last comment on your fake ninjering video is mine and I'm still waiting for a reply. the kakutogi no rekishi says this Even though they are not mentioned in this particular periodical, there are several schools that are well-known for being ‘effective arts’ (jitsuryoku ha).” Among the schools listed in this section are Gyokko Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, Gikan Ryu, Kukishin Ryu, and Takagi Ryu (see below).
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
Also troll the the BRD is considered one of the best sources of info. the only one lying is you. the BRD is extremely well respected and accepted and it's hilarious that you call me a coward, you made a fool of yourself on MAP then ran like a wet cat. lol. Also. if im a coward my offer of a friendly sparring match still stand. we'l see who's a coward then. the zen nippon todo renmei HAS authority, the KKNR and BRD have recognised the buj. face it. ure just another pathetic online troll.
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
ALSO. the japanese government recognise hatsumi but ofcourse the japanese government doesn't know as much about japanese MA as you do right? publications by some of the most respected martial art historian and scholars recognise the bujinkan. but ofcourse you know more than them right? there are people on MAP who have lived studied and trained in Japan for decades but im sure you know a lot more from your trolling sessions. you call me a coward yet consistently refuse to spar with me. troll.
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
"ALSO. the japanese government recognise hatsumi but ofcourse the japanese government doesn't know as much about japanese MA as you do right?"
name the branch of government that does this.
"the zen nippon todo renmei HAS authority, "
BALD ASSERTION
explain to me how the sport sword fighting federation of japan can better authenticate an obscure kobujutsu discipline than the official koryu societies??
or do u just say that to avoid admitting he got passed on by the NKS&NKK?
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor uhh.. the branch of the government that considers him a National treasure, and has decorated him for his work and contribution on the areas of culture and warrior arts?? the NKS and the NKK havent authenticated him because he hasn't asked them too. he says anyone is welcome to come and see the densho AT his home .The NKS and NKK have not done this and require all schools to bring the documents TO them. the ZNTR went there and spent over a year looking over everything before saying ok.
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
"uhh.. the branch of the government that considers him a National treasure,"
name this branch. you cannot, because no such branch exists. the emperor himself granted hatsumi national treasure status FOR TOURISM!!!
"the NKS and the NKK havent authenticated him because he hasn't asked them too"
seems you missed the meetings he went to, where he demonstrated budo and said it was ninjutsu.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
furthermore can you explain to me what the ZNTR can do to authenticate a historical densho? what role do you believe the japanese sword federation, an organization that recognizes and teaches your schools ryu as gendai budo taijutsu...
how dare you prey on the ignorance of people to not know the role of the ZNTR, and where they have authority...
and isn't it odd to you that takamatsu told the BRD that there WERE ZERO DENSHO, and that he recieved a kuden transmission?
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor wrong. it wasn't the emperor who declared him a national treasure by the JAPANESE CULTURAL AGENCY. seriously. aren't you tired of being wrong?also the only ignorant one here is you. the ZNTR has several esteemed scholars on the japanese language and culture on it's board who went over the densho, but ofcourse you, who aren't from japan and don't speak the language know more than them right? also any proof that these meetings hatsumi went for didn't just happen in your mind??
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
"it wasn't the emperor who declared him a national treasure by the JAPANESE CULTURAL AGENCY"
so your either unable to provide or ignorant of the japanese name of the "japanese cultural agency" which oddly isn't mentioned on even 1 japanese source....
"seriously. aren't you tired of being wrong?"
i would have to make an error first,
"also the only ignorant one here is you"
more baseless assertions?
you have already been corrected on the ZNTR, by buffonmusa, nice lying.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor which japanese source did you check btw? ok, here's your error list
1) u claim that the BRD's info is highly suspect. world renown scholars on the other hand recommend it highly
2) you ignore the KNR and ninjutsu no gokui
3) you ignore the fact that daisuke nishina's existence has been verified by independent 3rd party researchers, so unless the BJK can see into the past they were not lying.
4)you ask for the japanese name of the JCA? do you even know japanese?
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
5) you ignore the information provided by Dr Kacem Zoughari, he holds a PHD in Japanese culture AND on the Language.'
6) the JCA's japanese name is 文化庁 bunkachō
7) hatsumi publicly displays his scrolls once a year, if you're willing to go to see them and can understand the language go ahead.
8) you were completely wrong when you claimed it was the japanese emperor who declared him a treasure and haven't been able to back up your baseless claims that it was for tourism
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
9). Takamatsu is the recognized authority from such famous schools as Kukishin Ryu (recognized even by the Kuki family themselves) and Gyokko Ryu. he never attempted to make money off his position, was an ordained priest and when he died his neighbours were shocked to find out that he was infact a very famous martial artist? does this sound like a fraud to you?also given his status what reason would he have for making up false schools complete with documentation and a history of characters?
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
10) I'd be really interested to hear how exactly you're going to explain the clairvoiyant powers the BJK used when they provided information about Nishina which was verified several years by 3rd party researchers btw. Either they have psychic abilities or they're telling the truth. I know which explanation I'm going with.
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
thank you for finally summarizing, now we can actually discuss.
1) never have i ever made this claim.
2) i don't ignore it, i don't see how a modern reference can be useful in deciding things before its writing.. your book is a hoax.
3)first, where? show me. second, so what? prove the lineage from him, THATS where the problem is, its a HUGE leap of faith you expect us all to take.
4) you have no problem throwing around zntr and knr but shy from JCA?
my lang isn't relevant.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor
1) go to page 2 here's what you posted "the brd cites its historical claims as highly suspect. why do you so blatantly lie?" having memory trouble are we?
2) Modern? I've seen you throw this around before and these books predate the ninja craze you're so fond of by quite some time. Also If a modern reference isn't usefull in deciding things then I guess every book writen on Julius Caesar after his death is useless, see the logic fail?
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
3) Koyama Rantaro and many other's have verified the existence of Daisuke Nishina, Now Takamatsu is giving a list of names and dates that he claims lineage from, If he's lying they're made up, BUT we know that Nishina did exist at the time Takamatsu said he did exist and the other details takamatsu provided were also correct. so either he was telling the truth or had psychic abilties.
4)? I already answered this mate the JCA's japanese name is 文化庁 bunkachō
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
also how exactly isn't your language relevant? 9 out of 10 sources on this issue are in Japanese how you claim to know anything if you can't even read them?
also.
you have still ignored the following points
1) Kacem Zoughari holds a PHD in Japanese culture and language, he disagree's with you
2) Hatsumi displays his scrolls publicly once a year, you've called them fake without even seeing thm
3)you were completely wrong when you said it was the Emperor who made hatsumi a national treasure.
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
you also ignored the fact that takamatsu was the head of two very well respected schools of MA, was a very famous and respected martial artist, he never tried to make money or obtain fame from his position(although he could have) lived a simple life ended up an priest and when he died his neighbours were shocked to find out that he was infact a famous martial artist, why would he make up false schools complete with documentation and a history of characters? he never even tried benefiting from it
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
you also called the KNR and ninjutsu no gokui a hoax without knowing anything about them just because you "thought" they were written at a particular period. which btw you were wrong about. also if coming after all of this made them a hoax then I guess every book on WW2 that was not written during the war is a hoax seriously you can't even read the damn books but have no hesitation in calling them hoaxes all of this evidence has been given countless times u've just ignored it again and again.
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
i said nothing of the ninjutsu no gokui, i know little of it, nobody provides page numbers, im not going to translate the whole thing word for word..
i have scans of the KNR, if you only said what you claim it says, i could check it.
but it most definitely is not as old as you seem to think it is...
Arteanor 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
Tatara magazine page 6.
John Lindsey in an interview with Tanemura S asks: "Did Takamatsu S always call it Togakure ryu?":
"Not at first. When he was associated with the Kuki family he planed to introduce Kukishin Ryu Ninpo in the form of scrolls and densho. But after the war he distanced himself from the Kuki family and decided not to do this. then he met Hatsumi S. and Fukumoto s. Takamatsu S.i decided to teach them Ninpo. That is when he decided to use the name Ninpo."
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor
so could you please explain to me how only takamatsu knew only about daisuke nishina and no one else did?
maybe he thought "the stuff i learned while fighting my ass off" was a bad title to the style of art he wanted to create as his legacy(benefit)?
yeah, which is why he shunned all publicity and money and tried to keep as low a profile as possible and his students numbered in single digits.
and oh yes, I suppose kacem has an agenda too, I guess apart from you everyone is a liar.
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
"Also If a modern reference isn't usefull in deciding things then I guess every book writen on Julius Caesar after his death is useless, see the logic fail?"
ah but i never claimed that, strawman...
a rather ignorant statement, you've claimed that things written about takamatsu that came after him or the ninja boom as you call it are hoaxes, btw you haven't even read the books yet. all i've done is substitute Julius Caesar for takamatsu, do you understand the logic fail now?
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
you even claimed inaccurately that it was the emperor who declared hatsumi a national treasure and even forgot what you yourself had posted about the BRD.
Also you ignore the fact that hatsumi displays his scrolls publicly once a year and anyone is welcome to see them. seriously arteanor how long will you continue to ignore evidence? also I see you claim to have a copy of the KNR, cool but as far as I recall you don't understand japanese.lol. remember?
RhadeConstantine 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
"was the head of two very well respected schools of MA,"
not the head then, and he quit his training in mainline kukishen... albeit on a respectful note...
"was a very famous and respected martial artist"
debatable.
"why would he make up false schools complete with documentation and a history of characters? "
maybe he thought "the stuff i learned while fighting my ass off" was a bad title to the style of art he wanted to create as his legacy(benefit)?
think about it.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
1) kacem has an agenda, this colors the research he does...
he makes broad assumptions, too broad for my liking...
2) this is not true, it is a flashing glimpse that you offer, not the extended examination that is necessary, and i have never pretended to be able to date a densho by eye, that is beyond my abilities, however he did leave them at home when he met the NKS...
3) oh? is there a biography you deem correct? or just any that excludes that?
Arteanor 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
3) so? really... so what?
if you only have 1 guy you say made the ryu.. followed by nobodys absent from all records, how can you claim verified lineage?
"BUT we know that Nishina did exist at the time Takamatsu said he did" DUH, would you pick someone you knew NOTHING about to be the head of your fake ryu? or someone you knew LOTS about? research is psychic abilities to you?
4) ah yes, can you show me where on the "agency for cultural affairs" they call themselves the JCA ??
Arteanor 1 year ago
@RhadeConstantine
1) why do would i need to lie?
2) modern, yes. as in made by takamatsu, or rather adapted out of the learnings he acquired.
sustainedreaction. yuku. com /topic/5540 i think this is summarizes well and is pretty agreeable, even complimentary considering the situation.
"Also If a modern reference isn't usefull in deciding things then I guess every book writen on Julius Caesar after his death is useless, see the logic fail?"
ah but i never claimed that, strawman...
Arteanor 1 year ago
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un arte de guerra que incluye:sabotaje,infiltracion,asesinato,estrategias,psicologia,aspecto religioso,aspecto espiritual-filosofico,manejo de armas,desplazamiento en los arboles,desplazamiento en el agua(buceo-natacion),formas de saltar ycaer,codigos secretos,tecnicas de memorizacion,espionaje,y un larguisimo ETC.me da pena tanta gente en el extranjero que porque son alumnos bujinkan se creen "ninjas" o que estudian ninjutsu,cuando en realidad no estudian real ninjutsu sino taijutsu
armoniaentodosentido 1 year ago
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un arte de guerra que incluye:sabotaje,infiltracion,asesinato,estrategias,psicologia,aspecto religioso,aspecto espiritual-filosofico,manejo de armas,desplazamiento en los arboles,desplazamiento en el agua(buceo-natacion),formas de saltar ycaer,codigos secretos,tecnicas de memorizacion,espionaje,y un larguisimo ETC.me da pena tanta gente en el extranjero que porque son alumnos bujinkan se creen "ninjas" o que estudian ninjutsu,cuando en realidad no estudian real ninjutsu sino taijutsu
armoniaentodosentido 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
un arte de guerra que incluye:sabotaje,infiltracion,asesinato,estrategias,psicologia,aspecto religioso,aspecto espiritual-filosofico,manejo de armas,desplazamiento en los arboles,desplazamiento en el agua(buceo-natacion),formas de saltar ycaer,codigos secretos,tecnicas de memorizacion,espionaje,y un larguisimo ETC.me da pena tanta gente en el extranjero que porque son alumnos bujinkan se creen "ninjas" o que estudian ninjutsu,cuando en realidad no estudian real ninjutsu sino taijutsu
armoniaentodosentido 1 year ago
senhores ya esta dicho hasta el cansancio... lo d bujinkan NO es ninjutsu,sino budo taijutsu.y eso de las famosas 3 escuelas de ninjutsu que incluye es FALSO.varios historiadores japoneses lo dicen; dicen en que puede haber sido una teoria que takamatsu sustento(o invento) y que no hay pruebas que esas 3 escuelas de ninjutsu hubieran existido.si bien es cierto en bujinkan se ensenha un BUEN taijutsu,eso NO es y repito NO es ninjutsu.ninjutsu NO es una arte marcial,sino un arte de guerra
armoniaentodosentido 1 year ago
ese soke kawak... es el que vende paletas en el museo ninja jajajjaja.
themagoo9 1 year ago
en realidad kawakami es el heredero de las familias ninja restantes y el unico alumno occidental reconocido por el soke es un español: Juan Hombre los demas o son unos farsantes como la bujinkan ( q enrealidad la bujinkan no hace ninjutsu, sino budo taijutsu) o hacen un ninjutsu un tanto falso
Lobo61972 2 years ago
Me gustaria ir a un super curso en japon, no entrenare con kawakami, pero por lo menos con su manita derecha(no me acuerdo del nombre ahora mismo)
jumperstenerife 2 years ago
el maestro jinichi, es mejor que el farsante de hatsumi... pues es el lambe huevos del emperador de japon, jinichi es mejor y mas original que hatsumi...
markhusmedina 2 years ago
hey markhusmedina en adicion a tu comentario vale la pena recalcar que kawakami esta reconocido por el gobierno de lo que eran las provincias de iga y koka como su represantante y heredero de la BAN FAMILY KOKA NINJA
masterofdisguiseable 2 years ago
no se mucho de el master hinichi, pero simplemente al observar la aplicacion de tecnicas se ve que es mejor que cualquier otro disque soke de ninjutsu, y me gusto mucho su sistema lastima que aqui en México no haya nadie que trabaje directamente con el...
markhusmedina 2 years ago
para tu informacion pendejo hatsumi es el original dado que el es cinsiderado tesoro de Japon SI TE INFORMAS MEJOR SABRIAS MAS,,I,,
bujinkan12 2 years ago
jajaj hatsumi es un gran farsante y tambien todos sus gatos que le siguen, yo soy de ninjutsu y soy campeon mundial de vale todo y campeon nacional de muay thai, y tu me imagino que eres uno de los gatos de hatsumi, tu que eres, nada al igual que hatsumi, solo un pendejo mas de bujinkan que solo les gusta acumular grados pero a la hora de los putazos reales son unos pendejos que no sirven para nada, al igual que hatsumi tu y todos los bujinkan son unos pendejos que no sirven para BUJINKAN12
markhusmedina 2 years ago
primer error tuyo campeon mundial de ninjutsu eres deveras un gilipollas segundo error que tiene que ver lo que estamos hablando con lo que tu seas y que campeon nacional de muay thai de verdad eres medio tarado y 3 error le historia y sabras la verdad pendejo no seas segado webon y lee
bujinkan12 2 years ago
mira pendejo mejor ve a chingar a toda tu puta madre y te voy a localizar para que te meta la verga a ti y a tu puta madre, pendejo maricon que para decir mamadas por este medio eres bueno pero ya veremos cuando me tengas enfrente hasta te vas a cagar putito -te lo prometo- te voy a chingar y chinguen a su madre todos los de bujinkan y si son tan buenos busquenme pinches putitos haber si es cierto que son buenos, y si son buenos pero para dar las nalgas pinches putos...
markhusmedina 2 years ago
chinguen a su puta madre todos los de bujinkan, los estoy esperando, para ver si es cierto que su puto sistema de ninjutsu sirve, demuestrenmelo, no sean pura pinche voca bola de putos, vayan a cojer a la mas viejas de sus casa, putos no sirven para nada, hatsumi y todos ustedes son una bola de putos, y los seran siempre.
markhusmedina 2 years ago
have you ever been to a ninjutsu class? i have. in ninjutsu you train kenjutsu. this means you use swords
hobesthetiger 2 years ago
忍者刀出しちゃった時点で信憑性全くなし。
下げ緒だけは歴史的根拠があるけど、他は全部後世の創作じゃないですか。
甲賀の人が率先して嘘を広めてどうするんですか。
Don't take this video seriously.
Historically Ninjato had never existed.
buffon399 2 years ago
nor the shinobi shozoku the guy is wearing...
hanaman1 2 years ago
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couldnt agree more... its a pity that so many frauds use it as a means of blinding the uneducated...
i got rights to vids of the Kawakami seminar so i posted them... ( same 2 dean had)
they could use some exposure ;)
Creationsofmyown 2 years ago
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ninjatos were originally straight-blade swords
because ninja were poor rebels and some other skilled warriors and swordsmen. that rebelled against the Samurai who at that time could do basically whatever the heck they wanted to the people because of the law at that time in feudal Japan.
twisteddarkb4dawn 2 years ago
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ninja were rich, and samurai. they used curved swords, not straight bladed. this is a hollywood myth. do some research.
hanaman1 2 years ago
So yea ninja didn't actually have money to buy many ninjato especially the more expensive curve-blade sword. actually most ninja never even owned a sword because they were soo expensive..which is why most of their weapons were made from common gardening tools. it wasn't until clans were established could anyone afford a curved blade sword which were stronger than the original straight-blade ninjatos.
twisteddarkb4dawn 2 years ago
ninja owned swords! ninja were not poor, they were not peasants! they were samurai class!
hanaman1 2 years ago
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Ninja were pretty much against the samurai, the only reason they became known to possess curved blades was because they took it from thier enemy in the first place, mostly Samurai. Historically ninja were more like hired thugs, they just used whatever they had at the time, stealing someone elses blade was just logical.
Fulou 2 years ago
wtf are you talking about. Ninjas were outcasts of soceity and had no money
vali4theworld 2 years ago
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funniwst shit iv heard. know what ninja schools are? check this school: "iga ryu" and this one" togakure ryu" and this one "kokushin ryu". check the soke list. you will notice that all soke of this ninja clans were indeed samurai.
hobesthetiger 2 years ago
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kukishin ryu is a samurai school. But tokagure ryu ninjutsu is not maybe you are right but i think this is not correct because a samurai who had a code of honor couldnt learn how to spy
vali4theworld 2 years ago
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kukishin ryu is a samurai school, like all other ninpo schools and the only ninpo school regarded as koryu. if youl check togakure school out you will notice that the founder of the method (even though he wasent really the first soke, as claimed by most) named daisuke togakure is a samurai. one more thing: the bushido was codifide about 30 years after the meiji era. during feodal times, the only rule was obay your daimio, and every daimio had his own set of rules.
hobesthetiger 2 years ago
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you are right about daiskuke tokugaru. But all the ninjas were jizamurai (a warrior living like a pesant). Daisuke fled from a battelfield to rescue his life and went to a village tokugare. There he honed his abilites
vali4theworld 2 years ago
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he was an iga ninja, thats where he learned his abilities. he tought them at the village of togakure, creating a new style of ninjutsu. and about the jizamurai, that is just not true. sorry. it clearly states in the togakure hidensho that as a retainer samurai of a ninja clan you should do this and that. as a retainer samurai. and look at all the soke, all were samurai. every and each. and as and clan leaders, they had lands and retainer samurai, so there was no need for them to be jizamurai.
hobesthetiger 2 years ago
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twisteddarkb4dawn 2 years ago
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twisteddarkb4dawn 2 years ago
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twisteddarkb4dawn 2 years ago
I bet your an x-kan practitioner aren't you!! That's cool though. Even though I talk good about Hatsumi-Sensei you still talk trash. That's ok though, you can believe whatever they tell you!! I forgot you'll know everything!!
KenjiRyu30 2 years ago
The straight ninja-to was the original ninja-sword by the way. It was introduced to japan in the heian period by China. Also, do you guys really think that Ninjutsu, Iga or Koka is really dead!! Come on, this is a huge world with billions of unknown people out there!! Do you really think that most TRUE clans would be bragging that they're Ninja and so on!! You know that there's gonna be some more Iga and Koka Ninja out there!! Yes Kawakami is authentic and so is Hatsumi, but there's alot more.
KenjiRyu30 2 years ago
And no, it wasn't because curved swords were used by the time ninja appeared, there's also no documentation of a straight bladed ninjato. And no, Kawakami wasn't proven to be a real soke but he is a ninja historian.
OkamiNinja7 2 years ago
there certainly are. They still live to this day, but use peoples disbelief to their advantage as a shinobi would. for what reason? so fools won't tamper or "play" with their way their art...tabun (maybe).
Reizo12 2 years ago 4
and how do you know that? or your just guessing?
hanaman1 2 years ago
@Reizo12
still live?
uh.. sure they do... care to back up your claim with a name?
i can name one... Fujita Seiko, the last ninjutsu practitioner, and he died over 40 years ago, and didnt train anyone in his ryu of ninjutsu.
so a name please. or stop BSing.
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown
what are you retarded, do you not know of Hatsumi Masaaki ? The founder of The Bujinkan.
Reizo12 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown
i posted that almost a year ago and i don't remember the topic, care to explain? Was i speaking of Ninjutsu practitioners of a certain ryu ? or just the fact that ninja of course still live today?
Reizo12 1 year ago
@Reizo12 its in the highest rated slot at the top...
you insist that ninja must be alive today, which is bologna.
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Reizo12
no i am not retarded..
do you not know that takamatsu(hatsumi's sensei) and therefore hatsumi, have NEVER proven their claims to ninjutsu...
the ONLY evidence for his claims is that HE SAYS SO.
there IS also the FACT that ninjutsu ISNT a martial art. in fact that it has NO combat techniques at all...
of course, i dont ask you to believe me on faith ( like hatsumi and takamatsu), and so i will cite the bansenshukai, the ninpiden, and the shoninki. none of which contain combat.
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown a name? it's not because in the Shōninki, Bansenshūkai and Ninpiden wasn't found a certain clue about them having actual combats, that they didn't.. they are manuscrips, they contain the techniques and what they used to practice, what weapons they used or invented and what skills made the ninja the masters of their art.. they also practiced taijutsu and army techniques', i'm not saying your wrong, but that suggests to me they did a lot more than their manuscripts say..
Elketjeable 1 year ago
@Elketjeable
seems your having some trouble speaking coherently...
i will reiterate for you. "they contain the techniques and what they used to practice,"
yes, the scrolls i referenced DO contain the techniques of ninjutsu.
" what weapons they used or invented "
i would like to see your source for "weapons"
"they also practiced taijutsu and army techniques" you are asserting things not supported by, and indeed contradicted by, the evidence in question.
taijutsu has no ninja connection.
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown Stop being a e-thug yo. Your know it all-ness is pointless and irritating.
LZEGION 1 year ago
@LZEGION
MY "know it all-ness" ???? seems you need to read more carefully, you are defending someone who has repeatedly made baldfaced assertions while neglecting that they are entirely false, AND lacking in any evidentiary capacity beyond HEARSAY.
but you knew that already didnt you? and you still posted just to try to cover the facts.
if its pointless and irritating why don't you show some evidence for the claims being made by the ninjers you love to defend? shut me up.
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown Na, your shit is boring yo.
LZEGION 1 year ago
@LZEGION
whatever kid.
doesn't it set off warning bells in your brain that you are entirely unable to produce ANY evidence for the claims of the various fraudulent ninja ???
or that you have NONE for ninjutsu being a martial art?
i realize it is hard to rebutt such well constructed arguments as mine, but a quick brush up on debate logic would do you wonders....
who knows you may even manage to come up with something that DOESNT RELY on a LOGICAL FALLACY...
i wont be holding my breath tho
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown Shut the fuck up man. It's boring and pointless!
I train to better myself and to protect my friends and family, I couldn't give a shit about fake ninja's on youtube or logical fallacy or your superior debating skills.
My question is, could you handle yourself in a real situation where internet thuggery and debating skills will get you nothing?
I highly doubt it, fuck all your technicality bullshit.
LZEGION 1 year ago
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@LZEGION
nice to see that the bujinkan teaches respect.
"boring and pointless!"
for someone who belongs to a school that needed to claim ninja lineage(without proof of course) to get members, you sure seem to have an astonishingly small interest in what we can ACTUALLY PROVE about shinobi.
"My question is, could you handle yourself in a real situation where internet thuggery and debating skills will get you nothing?"
of course, but if you can't handle the current topic, just admit it.
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown then look it up, ninja practised taijutsu, and ninja made their own weapons and practised their skills with it, there are many books written about it where you can find it, it's even in the manuscript.. But I don't want to argue about it, if you think otherwise, then that's your God given right to do so, I'm not saying I'm completely right either, but that are the facts I heard n seen and been reading..
Elketjeable 1 year ago
@Elketjeable
"then look it up"
there is nothing to look up on "ninja taijutsu". the only people claiming it are takamats-den arts...
"ninja made their own weapons and practised their skills with it" another assertion without evidence, there is NO evidence for ninjutsu being or including a martial art.
"here are many books written about it"
if your ok reading things made up by fakes
"it's even in the manuscript"
if you mean the scrolls, you are outright lying.
"that are the facts" nope sorry
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown yeah if you want to believe that who am I to stop you, but I'm believing what I heard, and I respect you for trying to convince me or teach me otherwise, but I'm sticking to what I learnt, and I'm not lying, if that's what your thinking, I just believe other people, books, facts.. but no hard feelings, I appreciate you trying
Elketjeable 1 year ago
@Elketjeable
"yeah if you want to believe that who am I to stop you"
same to you chief, if your ok believing tall tales why should i care about convincing you? i do however care that you are spouting lies as facts. so i will correct them.
"but I'm believing what I heard" in medieval times people heard about dragons, on the plus side, your story is just as likely.
"and I'm not lying" you said its in the manuscript, that IS A LIE.name the scroll.
funny, "other facts" are called stories.
Creationsofmyown 1 year ago
@Creationsofmyown I'm not spouting lies, maybe you are, but I'm not accusing you, yet you accuse me of lying why you yourself aren't even sure of your facts, if you don't agree than tell me where you got your so called ''truth'' from.. what happened you woke up one day and suddenly knew? don't call people liars because they don't believe stories of people like you.. There's been war in the past because of people believing one man for it's words..
Elketjeable 1 year ago
@Elketjeable
"I'm not spouting lies," saying things that aren't true, is lying. even if you dont know if they are true or not.
"yet you accuse me of lying why you yourself aren't even sure of your facts"
i'm VERY sure of my facts. how dare you infer otherwise.
considering all of your "facts" are simply a story told by a guy who wants to SELL you ninja martial arts.
i use the ACTUAL shinobi scrolls, bansenshukai, ninpiden, shoninki.
i call people liars because they lie, that is all.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor WAIT a minute! you're lying yourself right now;
''considering all of your "facts" are simply a story told by a guy who wants to SELL you ninja martial arts.'' How dare you lying like that!! I said I read books n stuff, now people who are involved with the arts, and you say it's a guy trying to sell me the arts, now you are making yo stuff up, it's as simple as that! I'm not going to argue with you anymore, since you argue with everyone here, thinking you're right and the world's not
Elketjeable 1 year ago
@Elketjeable "you're lying yourself right now" not in the slightest.
"How dare you lying like that!!" im not lying.
"I said I read books n stuff" written by hatsumi and his students, who i have shown already, DO NOT KNOW NINJUTSU.
"now people who are involved with the arts" there are none. the last died over 40 years ago.
"I'm not going to argue with you anymore" done making yourself look silly?
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor ''done making yourself look silly?''
NO, like I already said; DONE arguiing with someone who doesn't respect other opinions or the people that do happen to believe those opinions instead of yours, while you're actually not even listening because the only thing echoing in your head is your own voice and your own opinion, and @ the beginning I respected that, but since you don't even respect others and call them liars, because you think you're right and the world's wrong, I'm DONE!!
Elketjeable 1 year ago 2
@Elketjeable
"DONE arguiing with someone who doesn't respect other opinions"
just because i told you your opinion/beliefs are wrong does not mean i don't respect them, which is a worthless sentiment regardless.
respecting them doesnt mean i dont acknowledge that they are incorrect.
"or the people that do happen to believe those opinions instead of yours"
again, lying. i am not opining. i am sharing facts listed in the scrolls, and the opinion of the koryu societies. check yourself.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Elketjeable
"but since you don't even respect others and call them liars, "
you said something untrue, that means you lied, whether you knew it was untrue or not.
lie = spoken untruth. there is no intent required. dont get so emotional.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor well you just proved what I said, you called me a liar and you still do, while to me and others what I said is the truth, and I'm sure if you go check your ''arguement-history'' on this page, you will find that's a fact!! I didn't lie at all, to me you are lying and to you I am lying, case closed.. because you gotta learn that you can't just call people liars just because they don't share your opinion, and I respect your opion, to you it might be true, but to me it's not
Elketjeable 1 year ago
@Elketjeable
'well you just proved what I said, you called me a liar and you still do'
imagine that, you say something false, and someone ACTUALLY called you on it... don't see THAT happen in fake ninja dojos.
"hile to me and others what I said is the truth"
the truth is NOT subjective, no matter how much you want 2+2 to =7 its just not true, its still 4. and your still lying.
"I didn't lie at all, to me you are lying and to you I am lying, case closed"
nice doubletalk, your still lying
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor I'll explain it shortly to you since otherwise you won't even understand what I'm saying because of the echo's in your head;
''you said something untrue, that means you lied''
that's just your opion, not mine or others..
you call it a lie, to us it's truth and to us you're lying, that means we can call you a liar too, but we won't because we respect others opinions..
now you understand?
Elketjeable 1 year ago
@Elketjeable
"I respect your opion, to you it might be true, but to me it's not"
according to you, disagreeing is disrespecting your opinion, so NO you don't respect my opinion. another lie. damn, so easy...
"'you said something untrue, that means you lied''
that's just your opion, not mine or others."
not in any way, we are speaking of FACTS, i have them, in the scrolls... and where is your "facts"? ah right, the old man selling ninja school.... ROFL
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor ''according to you, disagreeing is disrespecting your opinion, so NO you don't respect my opinion. another lie. damn, so easy...''
Did I say that? NO, proves you don't understand a word people are saying, and only your own voice in your head!! you don't understand anything, so we'll just shut up about it, cuz you don't want to hear cause you think you're soooo much worth it, I'm not gonne waste my time on you anymore cause you're an ignorant selfish I-now-it-all accusing person
Elketjeable 1 year ago
@Elketjeable
MORE LIES?
"but since you don't even respect others and call them liars"
YOU SAID THAT. just because you said something untrue does NOT mean i don't respect you, it only means that your a FUCKING LIAR.
i have PROVEN what you said to be false, and you still infer that you are entitled to some sort of subjective truth, that YOU have a different version of the truth than the rest of us, this is of course BULLSHIT. 2+2 = 4... no matter how many times you say its 7
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Arteanor you never proved anything!! and now you get angry because people don't believe you, I'm not a liar and you know it, and you just get angry Cuz you know you're wrong!! and by the way ; ''that YOU have a different version of the truth than the rest of us'' You don't have anyone that sheirs your opinion'' and Cuz I said you argue here with everyone and I share my truth and opinion with a lot of people, you suddenly sheir your opinion with the rest? where is your rest?
Elketjeable 1 year ago
@Elketjeable "you never proved anything" uh, just because you didn't go READ the shinobi manuals i told u to check out doesn't mean i haven't proven myself.
"I'm not a liar and you know it" i know you say things that are not true, so YES your a liar. dont get so upset, just stop saying your opinion like its proven fact.
"You don't have anyone that sheirs your opinion" i think you mean shares, which is another lie. the Nihon kobudo shinkokai, nihon kobudo kyokai and koryu com all do.
Arteanor 1 year ago
@Elketjeable
and besides, people sharing an opinion with you has NOTHING to do with how correct that opinion is. correctness is based on FACTS, NOT popularity.
"and I share my truth"
bakka, you do not get your own version of the truth.
it is fallacious to assume such nonsense. you sound like o'reilly
"where is your rest? " what does this have to do with anything? can't you stay on topic?
i want evidence for your claims, lets see it.
ninja MA should be easy to prove if its real.
Arteanor 1 year ago
Ninjatos weren't straight, end of story, that derives from hollywood, and Iga ryu is dead. Jinichi Kawakami may know Ninjutsu, but he isn't soke of Iga ryu.
Haku92292 2 years ago
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hey isnt he red power ranger in is regular job
vwarn83 3 years ago
Hyoujinsama, you are correct. The straight blade does exist, but they actually didn't have them in the time of the Ninja. When a new Katana is being forged, it curves naturally. It would be very difficult to create a straight blade by hand back then.
taylormoorefield 3 years ago
Actually, the blade I have is Kambun Shinto. Plenty old enough to be from that time period. To make a straight katana, the sunobe would have to be forged muzori. The quench would then straighten it out. Straight katana were not all too tough to make. Just harder than the standard curved.
Hyoujinsama 3 years ago
The only thing that makes the blade curved is that it has 2 types of steel crystals do to clay on the blade at quenching time. Anyone can make a straight blade with ease. So much BS here.
xomagick 3 years ago
Yeah, it's easy to make a straight blade, but you said it yourself...sorta. Differential hardening. You have to forge a billet uchizori (not muzori, to correct my previous post), and just uchizori enough to straighten out without some curve in one direction or another.
Straight blade = easy. Differentially hardened straight blade = not. Unless there is an oil quench which wasn't used until the late 1800s anyways.
Hyoujinsama 3 years ago
SandayuRyu, I don't know how many times I've had to explain this to people. Some Ninjutsu espionage methods were inspired by Sun Tzu, a Chinese War strategist. But many of the weapons were developed in Japan. Not all of Ninjutsu comes from China. In fact, hardly any of it does.
taylormoorefield 3 years ago
that actually isnt really sandayuryu, just his douschebag friend. trust me, i know.
OkamiNinja7 3 years ago
Not to say anything about Kawakami Jinichi's character as a person, but I have a hard time believing in the elusive Ninjato. Why is no-one allowed to inspect the only "antique" one at the museum? Why has shinsa not been performed on the only "antique" blade of its kind?
Not saying straight swords didn't exist, as I have a muzori katana in my own collection, but I have yet to hear of ANY muzori katana in ninjato koshirae. I have never once seen antique square black tsuba and pointed kojiri.
Hyoujinsama 3 years ago
thats because they were cheaply forged and as insignificant after a mission as a empty shell from a bullet. easily discarded maybe even reforged into a gardening tool. as most ninja weapons were tools. but the western looking hollywood ninja tou, is questionable. i agree.
SandayuRyu 3 years ago
There is a whole Iga Koga debate. Just look at the material being taught and judge from there. We are not from Japan and who knows what is what. looks good to me.
streetkunedo 3 years ago
this guy is sooo real no fakes i can tel ;D
i wanna learn from him sooo bad
conzors 4 years ago
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bleah fake ninjas abound
paradoxbox1 4 years ago
hi kiketet, nice videos you have posted.
I would like to see more
that videos are historycal so good
shihoukemi 4 years ago
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what crap!
PMACoralSprings 4 years ago
I WANT TO BE A NINJA....
NightFox52 4 years ago 10
we all do, but we will never be shinobi. he is cuz he learned from his heritage, but are you descended from them? if not, you will only be a ninja trained person, not a true ninja.
OkamiNinja7 3 years ago
then that means there ( japanese) arent true ninja either, because the traditional teachings come from china. en no gyoja etc. do your history, god your embarrasing.
SandayuRyu 3 years ago
hmmmm....are you referring to me? because i already know that ninpo came from the teachings of china, just like most martial arts. still, are gung fu practitioners called karate ka? no, they arent. and last i checked, ninjutsu developed from japan and came from the teachings of china. doesnt mean that those chinese were ninja, it means their teachings are and those teachings became a japanese art.
OkamiNinja7 3 years ago 2
Ninjutsu does have origins from all over asia, it's just that when all that knowledge came to japan is when it was developed into what we know today as ninjutsu. you cant find this exact martial art anywhere else, unless you somehow had centuries to learn all the different cultures and teachings from the other countries it came from, battle test what you know, throw out what doesnt work, modify what does work to make it better, and persist in that manner until you develop it yourself.
Wingtsuninpo 3 years ago
well said....well said.
OkamiNinja7 3 years ago
Ninjutsu was a combination of techniques that existed in Japan that were then mixed with stuff from China and then had about 1400 years to grow and change. Think of just a second, how much has martial arts change in the USA in the last 100 years?
Also technique changes with weapons, armor, need, time needed to train, available for training, medicine, support, what place you fight etc. Even the USA sees this, that is why we have Navy, Army, Air Force etc. One technique does not fit all fighting.
xomagick 3 years ago
I know that, what you're saying isn't new.
OkamiNinja7 3 years ago
@NightFox52 You already are, grasshopper. *mystical windshime sounds*
trolltrumman 1 year ago
whoa...
YounWhaRyu 4 years ago 3
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LMAO :D
The ultimate LARPer, even better than Hatsumi
macksnack 4 years ago